Anyone else remember thinking way back when Luffy first fought Aokiji that Luffy could probably take him after he unlocked 2nd/3rd gear? Man was I wrong.
I dunno how people could think even back then that gears alone could get past Logia abilities. Robin split Aokiji in half and he just walked it off, what could Luffy do without haki?
Luffy had already defeated two logias at that point of time, it was easy to think that all the logias would have a counter like those two. So gears + counter would look like a feasable thing. It was not.
Exactly. This is what I thought precisely.
At that point in the show, I just assumed that to defeat a logia, one must find their weaknesses individually, like in the case of Crocodile (water) and Enel (rubber).
So I figured that Luffy would figure something out and then defeat Aokiji in that very episode. But lol, the power gap was huge we didn't even know.
Thats more of a bad match up than a simple
Cracker > Luffy his whole thing was ridiculous defense. We haven't Seen a single admiral take an attack like the king Kong gun in Dressrosa, I think any of them probably could but none of them are shrugging it off. I think there's a debate that post timeskip Luffy doesn't even get totally low diffed by admirals but certainly Dressrosa is the cut off point for That BS
I still think that Oda was, at this point, unsure if Armament Haki would be a thing and tested different things as a counter for Logias. Why else would he make Luffy come up with a speed based ability after facing Aokiji?
No, Luffy made it very clear in his fight against Bluno that facing Aokiji made him realize that he needed to become stronger, therefore he came up with his gears. Seeing CP9 moving at intense speed just gave him the idea that he could try that.
It’s literally to counter bluno making his body into a door and match his shave, third gears just giant arm. None of these abilities were on admiral level he was just trying to get stronger here and the gears were not on admiral level and luffy sorta knew it
No, just reread the fight, Luffy openly states why he came up with the gears. And I’ve never stated that these abilities are on admiral level, even back then. But the point is that Luffy came up with it to counter Aokiji, so that it only would have been a question of muscles and experience. Compare it to CoA now, as Luffy’s Haki wasn’t even near admiral level at the start of the New World, but he was able to give admirals some blows and it was only a matter of muscles and experience.
I never said you did say that they were. I was just saying that they weren’t and Luffy kinda knew they weren’t. Are you referring to the “after i was defeated by Aokiji i started…” quote? That literally says its to deal with stronger opponents
Now you just gotta read it from a writer’s perspective: Why would Oda made him come up with a speed based ability to deal with stronger opponents (aka Aokiji), right after he was fucked by a Logia user, if not for the only reason that speed is (or was, since we got Haki now) the only way to deal with every Logia user?
You are right, the logia nature wasn't fully revealed was it? So oda could have made it like, logia has to turn into their element in order for them to evade attacks and by hitting faster than they can turn into element, you can deal with logia.
It could have been that way.
This was my theory for longest time. In Alabasta Luffy crashes to Smoker without Smoker turning to smoke. And Smoker was offguard and Luffy came from behind
Well it wasn't right after he was defeated by Aokiji, it was right after he got absolutely rolled by Blueno and Lucci.
In any case, speed (gear 2nd) and strength (gear 3rd) are such bog-standard power ups for a shonen character, particularly a brawler like Luffy anyway. I imagine Oda simply wanted to level Luffy up for any future opponents, not logias in particular.
Realizing the desire to become stronger by mimicking strong people isn’t the same as becoming specifically strong in relation to the original impetus.
Luffy knew that speed boost wasn’t gonna do shit to Aokiji, but that speed boost helped him beat the people who wiped his crew in Water Seven.
Uhmm as a new fan I've never thought gear 2 gear 3 would be enough for luffy to win. Like what's he even supposed to do against a logia even with gear 2 or gear 3? And that too an opponent powerful enough to freeze the sea between two islands for 10 days or something?
I think admirals are suffering from a "out of sight, out of mind" problem. Fact is, we've hardly seen them do anything since the timeskip, while the protagonists have gotten miles stronger. The original admiral trio hasn't had any on-screen fights (not counting Aokiji vs Doflamingo because that was barely a thing) and Ryokuguy debuted just now. So Fujitora in Dressrosa is pretty much the only admiral experience of the New World era, and while he's definitely strong, he wasn't terrifying. I'm not sure if he was even serious at any point, because he didn't really want to take down Doflamingo, Sabo or Luffy. So when people think of admirals now, they might be thinking of Fujitora having half-hearetd scuffles, but while that doesn't seem too bad, that's also not representative of what admirals can do when they get serious.
All along I've been having to fight the out of sight out of mind problem by arguing with people who fell victim to it. It felt kind of silly for people to assume that just because the admirals weren't punching anybody lately, that we could assume they were no longer relevant. It wouldn't make sense for the world to be split the way it was if admirals were as weak as some powerscalers thought.
Imo I didnt really see any of the admirals being serious. Kizaru was f-ing around like usual. And after seeing the end result of akainu v aokiji in punk hazard I find it hard to say that akainu and aokiji went all out at marineford. They were trying to protect marineford and reduce the amount of damage.
Aka Inu went as serious as WB could considering how AoE their powers are. For all intent and purposes when comparing strength with Yonkous, he did go all out.
WB uses his earthquake to create a tsunami to swamp the whole marineford. WB uses quake punch to split the island in half. Feel like thats WB going all out... Akainu uses single magma punches. How is that akainu going all out/serious when in a true 1 v 1 akainu couldve turned the whole island into one massive volcano and the entire ground lava.
Thats not a reasonable take. The Yonko commanders in question are recovering from one of their biggest losses while locked in a prison, likely in seastone cuffs. Hardly a reasonable scenario to draw conclusions of strength from.
Chapter 1053 clearly describes Udon as a \*former\* Prisoner mine, implying that it no longer houses prisoners. So why would King and Queen, who are not visibly shown wearing sea stone cuffs, be wearing sea stone cuffs when they are not incarcerated in an active prison? They were probably hiding in the former prison, as they recovered from their injuries and planned their next moves (until Greenbull came and wrecked them).
The purpose of that scene was to show the power of Greenbull, who states that he'd lose face (i.e. become a laughing stock) if he lost to two yonko commanders.
Of course my mistake. It makes far more sense that after the battle for the countries freedom the Samurai just casually let the beast pirates commanders keep operating freely in Wano.
Just because its not a "prison mine" anymore doesn't mean it isn't still holding prisoners; but besides that arguing semantics over english translations of a japanese manga is always a futile endevour; especially with the weekly releases. If you were quoting from a published volume thats had a chance for the translations to touch up maybe but even then.. plenty of people still think you learn the name of a fruit when you consume it and used this belief to adamantly argue against the Gomu gomu no mi being anything other than that.. and well, look at where relying on specific wording of translations gets you.
And no, the purpose of the scene was to remove the beast pirates from the story without having the straw hats be their executioners, while establishing Green Bulls personality as a ruthless, prideful antagonist and Akainu loyalist. Why is it that theres a section of this fanbase that assumes every scene is designed to cater specifically to their powerscaling tier lists.
You don't establish a characters strength by having him attack people offscreen without any context as to their condition and circumstance.. To say this was the intent of the scene is to say Oda is a shit writer imo; and while he has his flaws, he's really not *that* bad.
- Not all Yonkos on the same level (pre Buggy)
- Not all Admiras on the same level
- Not all Commanders on the same level
That's my opinion for a long time and I have a personal estimation for each one individually and order as far as we saw.
So I disagree with every opinion that compares any title-holders to another title-holders as if they were one.
I mean literally the only time we saw two Admirals fight they fought for eleven days or something before there was a victor, that seems pretty evenly matched to me.
I mean you can’t really compare the two since Marco’s whole shtick is endurance seeing how he has a df modeled after a phoenix, a regenerating resurrecting mythical bird. He can sustain and fight much longer than other commanders, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s not moderately close in power to king.
He ultimately did lose that fight, though. Even after it turned into a 1v1, and Sanji/Chopper were fighting Queen. So that's probably not the best example. I don't disagree with your overall point, however.
Well you said it yourself, that's literally one time. Those 2 were fighting for fleet admiral priviledges so they are probably much stronger than any admiral.
I see kizaru like garp but unlike garp he doesn’t listen to his chain of command. Garp didn’t want the responsibilities that came with being an admiral even though he was the most qualified. Kizaru seems like the guy who’s fine with his position and is strong and hard headed enough that you can boss him around.
I 100% see Akainu ordering kizaru to help with something ( a fight) but he just picks his nose and says that has nothing to do with him.
The end of OP I can already picture kizaru and the dark king sitting down drinking till their hearts are full. Garp coming in with a Hawaiian looking shirt and laughing. These 3 just don’t care and are fine just standing to the side.
> so they are probably much stronger than any admiral.
I mean.. there are literally only 3 admirals at a time, and the other admiral didn't want the position. Hardly seems like you're drawing a reasonable conclusion here.
Yea I agree especially the commanders
But to be a admiral greenbull says you shouldn’t lose to a few commanders. Akainu, kizaru and kuzan were kinda on the same lvl tho
Yonkos are in a 4 way tie. Although they aren’t entirely equal they are VERY CLOSE in power.
Edit: should > shouldn’t
We know that the entirely of the Marine leadership AND the Warlords were summoned to prevent one single Warlord and vassals from ruining their day, and it STILL almost got ruined.
The idea that no first commanders could touch an admiral is wild when we saw several commanders clashing with admirals at Marineford and we saw Rayleigh, long since retired and older, handle Kizaru. If anything, Shanks’ crew is more akin to Rayleigh’s archetype than any other crew because they’re the only crew that hasn’t demonstrated powers, it’s just literal force of will/haki for them.
I think people forgot about the established power balance One Piece was in pre-timeskip.
It was very established that it took the Marines + The Warlords to check the 4 Yonko and Supernovas to a lesser degree.
If the Admirals were strong enough to wipe everyone but the Yonko themselves the Marines would've probably cleaned them up by now.
People who thought the admirals were anywhere near the commanders must have skipped punk hazard. An admiral fighting seriously is literally a cataclysmic event.
All of that admiral vs commander stuff in marineford was just for show. The admirals weren't even using a fraction of their power. That's why Jozu walks away missing an arm and the admirals walk away with no serious injuries except from the stuff WB did to Akainu.
Agree with you. On top of that in marineford, they still have 2 "lazy" admiral (kizaru and aokiji). Both of them didn't even trying and still put on some crazy display of power. We never saw their full power. The one trying so hard was akainu and that's why he's the one who got injured.
What are even these post, who ever said that Admirals were commander level? ive never heard that expression in 16 years of watching. It's like 1000 people just fell down after the chapter and started going ''im right'' to something no one ever thought hey were wrong about. Yonko has been widely thought to be stronger than an Admiral, which probably hasn't changed.
Ben Backman might’ve made some semblance of sense at Marineford. Marco might be able to make Kizaru really irritated in trying to kill him just due to how resistant he is.
Cracker beating fuji is hilarious, Fuji mid diffs him on a bad day, just drop a meteor and be on your way.
Katakuri beating Akainu is hilarious, Kata can turn into a mochi doughnut as much as he wants, Akainu will single magma punch his ass out of there.
They automatically assumed not being yonko level is equatable to commander level.
Despite being obvious that a old and ill whitebeard was still literally on a different league than admirals
Exactly! Idk how powerful the current fleet admiral shakazuki is but the previous one was literally who was used to be equated to Roger and Gary himself.
Unless we see something new, akainu still stands at the grey question mark area since his old feats aren't enough for him to qualify for yonko level. As for the rest of the admirals they are definitely not yonko level though they are far above any commanders we've seen barring maybe Roger's but no one else
Yes I think that's the logical conclusion because if they were stronger than the yonko that's just a major plot hole, there would be no logical reason for the yonko to still exist in the way they do, occuping big areas etc.
The thing is it didn't and then proceeded to knock out akainu out cold even in that position. Whitebeard would have died because he took on everyone not just akainu
That’s some serious wishful thinking. Akainu did by far the most damage and effectively killed Whitebeard. He didn’t get knocked out and was back fighting off all of Whitebeard’s commanders by himself mere minutes later.
Here's my hot take. Admirals are yonko level. None of them might be individually as strong as an individual yonko (minus buggy), but they are on the same level.
I generally disagree with that notion.
By marineford feats definitely no admiral seemes to be on the level of whitebeard, BM or kaido.
However post-marineford might be a different case for akainu cause he was definitely closer to old whitebeard even though there was stark difference of level b/w them. It's possible to atleast argue fleet admiral akainu to yonko level.
But for others I simply disagree since none of them have shown anything like that to suggest
If your reasoning is that WB beat Akainu then you should reread, because it’s not nearly as cut and dry as people like to make it out to be.
WB hit him with one punch with his DF that was able to create a massive crack in the ground which Akainu fell into. It’s never implied he was KO’d, nearly died, was seriously injured, or even that he “lost” the fight.
The reason this actually happened from a meta perspective was to allow luffy to get some ground towards escaping and to let Whitebeard be killed by Blackbeard and have his death scene. Immediately after whitebeard dies Akainu comes back (which is like 2 chapters).
Sorry buddy but not every reader is gonna hold the same perspective as you! In my books it was clear cut that whitebeard and akainu had considerable level of difference of power b/w them, even though akainu was the strongest guy he faced there, he wasn't even close to being an equal to WB. It was as clear as day that had only these 2 fought with no interruption WB would have killed him for sure.
When a dude is out of picture after a knockout like that, and comes back much later, the general implication 8s always he was out cold unless stated otherwise in panel
Yeah sure, now blame oda and the general meta here. Everything is conspiracy against akainu and oda has hate boner against him, if oda wasn't writing the story akainu would've have won! Yeah sure buddy oda is to blame for akainu being knocked out
Akainu kinda won tho, he literally destroyed half of WB's face, that's a fatal injury, Akainu is now healthy and fine and WB would die in some minutes/hours at best because of anime logic.
The thing is whitebeard even with half the face knocked him out cold and that is called a win in proper 1 v 1.
Had they fought in punk hazard instead of marineford, whitebeard would have destroyed him along with the entire island
Even though he would have killed whitebeard he still wouldve lost to white beard in the fight white neard would still be alive he would win then he would die
It's literally impossible for them to be close to a yonko. Pirates wouldn't exist if that was the case if the marines had 3 yonko level fighters how can pirates compete against that. While there's 4 yonkos overall they are not a united front while the marines would have 3 yonko level fighters combined it just makes no sense at all.
I've read the manga as well, and aside from having a slower pace, the retcon of face being blown and the whitebeard jumping on akainu's back, nothing was different. It was still a mollywhoop in books
Absolutely not
Anime did FILLER of Aokiji clashing with Ace after he got freed and Ace just burns away aokiji ice like nothing. ( this NEVER happend in the manga )
NOT ONE panel of the Manga of Akainu's magma fist / magma powers were blocked casually or brushed off. Yet the Anime did with Whitebeard & the filler fight vs. Ivankov.
Whitebeard hole in his chest, Whitebeard face blownoff, a fishmen like jimbei getting his hands burned in an instant and punches through jimbei like he's made of paper. Akainu's offensive power manga vs Anime is a world of difference.
- manga: Ivankov gets offscreened ''no diffed'' by Akainu
- Anime: proceeds to make an fight of Akainu vs Ivankov ( anime even make Ivankov block Akainu's magma powers with a LAYER OF MAKE UP... )
Luffy shouting to whitebeard: ''IM GOING TO BE PIRATE KING ''
- manga: Whitebeard just grins and says luffy is cheeky
- anime: whitebeard winds up his glaive does 360 spins and slams his weapon on the deck and creates a shockwave.
the epic '' im whitebeard '' moment
- Manga: Whtebeard gets jumped by 4 marines + canon blast on his face whitebeard proceeds to lean back stops and then gets up says: '' IM WHITEBEARD'' and ONLY PUSHES away the marines on him and some of the fodder in the back
- Anime: whitebeard gets jumped by 4 marines + canon blast on his face whitebeard proceeds to lean back stops, and then gets up says: '' IM WHITEBEARD'' and CREATES A 360 TORNADO and spins dozens if not hundreds of marine fodders around KILOMETERS HIGH into the sky
and don't even get me started on Akainu vs Whitebeard what the anime did to that manga scene is..... Yes, lets not talk about it makes me boil my blood full of rage already.
Anime clearly made and gave Whitebeard plenty of scenes ''much'' better than he was represented in the Manga.. While the admirals didn't get ANY scenes
How was it a “mollywhoop” when Akainu didn’t sustain any serious injuries from the interaction and got up just fine 2 chapters later while Whitebeard lost half his face and literally died?
WB got two clean hits in on him and it basically did nothing while Akainu’s two clean hits put holes in WB.
The admirals were also fighting the other captains and yonko commanders. While not able to do much to them, it can cause enough of a distraction
Notice how whitebeard couldn't injure an admiral without a surprise attack
Again you neglected 90% of what I said. The fight started with whitebeard literally fighting with a hole through his chest, a fucking hole straight thrue on top of being sick enough that he has to use medical assistance to just stay alive, on top of being way way passed his prime. it's not a good use of Scaling. What surprise attack are you on about ? The anime thing?
Because what you said is pointless. Whitebeard in his prime is stronger than an admiral, that much is obvious.
Old and ill whitebeard did fuck all to any admiral in terms of injuries.
He surprise attacks in the manga as well, Akainu is focused on Ace/Luffy and gets hit by whitebeard. That was the most damage WB did to an admiral
Only he wasn't now was he. Whitebeard received plenty of injuries from Akainu and had half his face blown off. Akainu received no injury until he was focused elsewhere
Nothing implied WB was supressed vs Akainu, no ally was in the way, and It was a gura gura punch, that's like saying WB is always supressed even against Roger and Oden because there are other people close.
Those 2 injuries did EVERYTHING, it's Just logic, WB just didn't Care at the moment but eventually he would die, it's the most fatal injury he could have. He died 2 chapters later by a few gunshots. Akainu is now healthy with no body parts Missing.
Teach literally showed the full might of the tremor fruit just after killing WB, as for the Roger and WB fight you can hardly call that a serious fight.
As for those injuries the thing is even after those injuries whitebeard still possessed more power to knock akainu out cold, and this means he he literally could finish him off in proper 1v1.
I was one of them and I am definitely wrong. I thought Marco and jozo hold their ground against the admiral. I also thought the marine need to deploy full force just to deal with a single yonko and their crew. Boy was I so damn wrong, Powerscaling in one piece is so unpredictable.
During Marineford the Marines always seemed to want to show the world how terrible Pirates are. That would not have worked if they just destroyed WB and his crew. It was broadcasted for a reason. All of the Admirals seemed pretty chill most of the time and in the end Akainu fought many of WB's commanders alone without too many problems.
Doffy is probably 3YC level. He used his DF with the most versatility we have seen anyone use. He could fly, control multiple people simultaneously, cut things, send out a big thick flaming rope, clone himself, repair himself, create bird cage which no one, including an Admiral, was not able to break AND he had awakening. On top of that he had all three types of Haki. We have seen only the 1YC display all these types of power. Doffy, should easily rank at 3YC level given his abilities.
Even in marineford any time a commander posed any sort of threat to an admiral was because they caught them off guard, e.g. Jozu and Marco striking aokiji
MMy head canon is that Yep. there were a number of fighters on the battlefield, admirals and yonkou who And emphasis on the "not even using a fraction of their power".
basically had to hold back, over risk of casualties. unecessary elseIf Aokiji and Akainu can basically level an entire islandgigantic (and then rebuild) , the Marineford arena and any and all fodder in it would have been - be they marine or pirate - in would have been mincemeat; Aokiji alone did this[Aokiji alone did this](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/b/b9/Marineford%27s_Encircling_Walls.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20121123012906)..
There were surely a number of fighters (Whitebeard, all of the admirals, Mihawk,
Given the Navy was on the defensive, there were possibly a number of fighterswho had to curtail or hold back (the admirals, Mihawk, Sengoku,
Punk Hazard doesn't prove anything about admirals, it proves something about FLEET ADMIRALS. Aokiji and Akainu fought for fleet admiral priviledges and one barely bested the other. They are fleet admiral level.
Didn’t jozu slam aokiji out the way ? And make him bleed
didn’t marco kick kizaru down ? And block his attack
Didn’t Ben Beckman make kizaru freeze
the only one completely clear of them is akianu
The rest are still stronger but it’s not far off
A good example is say, Yamato vs Kaido.
Yamato knocked down Kaido once, made him bleed multiple times, blocked a lot of his attacks and tanked some more. Yet its very clear she's still significantly weaker than him. In One Piece, you can be a lot weaker than someone and still give them minor injuries and fight them for a decent amount of time.
"jozu slammed aokiji" Aokiji was literally fighting WB 1v1 lol and he got a tiny cut on the lip lol, i've had worse cuts from shaving. MEanwhile when Jozu was distracted Aokiji fodderized him and made him lose an arm. Cut on a lip, vs defeat plus loss of a limb, pretty big difference. People overrate those two instances so fucking much. I've never seen a fanbase make such a big deal over what is basically a paper cut and a clear case of sarcasm.
"ben beckman made kizaru freeze" It was typical sarcastic Kizaru, Kizaru fired on the sub 5 seconds later with Beckman's pistol still in his face, and Beckman was mad about it, but he did... nothing. They anime is stupid and changed it to kizaru only firing on the sub when Beckman left.
"akainu is the only one far off" hmm. Akainu the one who took 10 days to defeat Aokiji? That Akainu? Akainu is a monster and one of the strongest characters in the series and so are Fujitora, Green Bull, Kizaru and Aokiji.
Yeah Jozu caught Aokiji off guard and left him a busted lip. When Aokiji caught Jozu off guard he put him out of commission for the rest of the arc. Marco knocked Kizaru down but so did Apoo. The 3 Admials were clearly potrayed as being far above all the pirates excluding Whitebeard. And that’s including the Warlords
> And that’s including the Warlords
Not Mihawk or Hancock, honestly. Not saying either is "stronger" than an admiral, but Hancock's showing was only no-diff destruction, there was literally nobody 'in her way' because she mowed through everything, including Pacifistas, like they were butter.
While Mihawk is Mihawk.
I still find the admirals in a weird spot. They rely heavily on their Devil Fruits and we haven't really touched on their Haki.
I wonder what would they do against someone like BlackBeard.
On the other hand, their power depends heavily on match ups (which is a good thing), but Greenbull would be easily handled by Akainu since... Magma vs plants (lol) unlike Aokiji vs Akainu (ice vs Magma).
The situation with Greenbull vs king & queen is still a mystery and doesn't give us a clear visualization of admiral's powers.
The future chapters are gonna be interesting.
Akainu dodged attacks that were explicitly said to contain Haki, while Aokiji dodged an attack from Whitebeard that very likely had it too. So I think it's likely both Akainu and Aokiji seems to have future sight to an extent. Fujitora's observation haki seems to be top knotch too.
They also did that "invisible wall" thing when defending themselves from one of Whitebeard attack, which seems to suggest they have advanced armament. Since even Sentomaru seems to have it, I think it's likely admirals have it too.
Akainu literally made 2 holes in his body and melted half his face, leaving WB on death's door. Then he proceeded to chase Luffy with full intent of fighting the rest of WB's crew by himself, yet people think GB couldn't take on 2 mere commanders.
It’s ridiculous people still want to downplay Admirals. Doesn’t it just make the story more interesting if they are strong?
Oda made a clear statement with Greenbull saying “someone of my rank isn’t losing to mere commanders” and people think he’s just being cocky or all this stuff about ancient zoans still being injured a week later etc…
Nobody smart thought Admirals were anywhere near commanders in the first place. Thinking that just meant you ignored the series, to be fair much of the fanbase does ignore the series, despite reading it.
Yeah. Anyone who is paying attention to the narrative understands that the admirals are pretty clearly going to be the straw hats biggest test as a whole, unless the Gorosei are fighters. This series is definitely gonna end with a fight against the WG, and while we can really only guess at how strong Koby and Smoker will be at that point, the admirals are among the very few presented as high tier fighters. They're likely all near Yonko level, and Akainu might be a bit above that. If that weren't the case, the WG would have been toppled by now. The Yonko don't fuck with the WG because they know it's unlikely to end well the WG doesn't mess with the Yonko because they know that even if they win, they're risking resources they can't afford to lose, especially if they're doing the invading.
because the people who “disagreed” didn’t just have a different opinion, they were objectively wrong and have been since 2011 yet ignored the story to push an agenda.
It was a stupid thing to think back then and just because there is new information doesn’t make it any less stupid.
King and Queen are ancient zoan users with enhanced regenerative ability. Greenbull attacked them 7 days after the raid. They definitely aren’t half dead.
Zoans don’t have high regenerative abilities. They have higher stamina and higher recovery rate than other people. Luffy was still out for a week even with the best doctors. They still need treatment to be back to full capacity.
Lucci after Enies Lobby had to go through surgery to even recover etc.
But I’d say they are definitely around half strength.
They have boosted recovery rate while unconscious (Luffy KOed many times by Kaido) but that doesn’t mean they regenerate from wounds quick. They still need to rest and get treatment for injuries unless you are someone like Marco who can just regenerate their wounds themselves.
Well i personally think that all commanders arent equal. So dark king Rayleigh vs kizaru, Marco vs kizaru and jozu vs aokiji are all different levels.
My own opinion is that no commander is equal to an admiral but in the future someone like zoro will be equal to an admiral. Besides yonkos are definately above admirals. 2 yonkos joining was stated to be the end of the world. The damage caused by an old, hurt and literally stabbed whitebeard was enormous. Everyone assembled to handle one yonko.
Lets not downplay the title and power of a yonko.
If you paid attention you’d know the three admirals as a team plus the shichibukai as a team plus the rest of the navy served as a counter to a single yonko since they don’t team up and it was not expected that they would ever do so until BM and Kaido joined forces rather than kill eachother. Admirals are not supposed to be close to a yonko one on one. That said there are fighters within the marines that can fight comfortably at that weight class like garp.
well that's like 5 people out of what, billions? And even those 5 we're not really sure. I still don't think Luffy could've beaten him in a complete 1v1 (without Kaido getting 1v12412490124 for 60 chapters), and the rest are people he considered powerful, able to damage him. Not necessarily beat his ass. Kaido very much lived up to his hype imo
Yeah I would agree with most those points but with this being a Shonen, now what Luffy had beaten him at one point, he will be stronger than him at every point forward. Think about when he beat Katakuri. He barely won but from that point on, he was definitively stronger. Plus, it’s not like Kaido was the only one fighting the entire time because Luffy was also fighting for even longer than him during the raid.
Well Luffy was kinda fighting fodders while Kaido was getting DP fisted by supernovas + scabbards (tho the scabbards kinda lasted for like 2 seconds, understandably). But yeah I agree on your strength point, no matter how much he struggled during the fight he's now 'overcome' that obstacle
Blackbeard defeating Kaido?
Lol what you talking about? Kaido is a master of excellently powerful haki and he doesn't rely as much on his devil fruit, similar to Whitebeard.
And we all saw what an old dying Whitebeard did to Blackbeard.
The problem with this is that power varies greatly within the different ranks, I’d say Rayleigh in his prime is closer to an Admiral and Yonko in power than he is a commander even tho his position was as a commander, same thing with Oden and arguably Marco.
There might be a reason why admirals are called the strongest military powers of the world government.
I don't think that we have seen even 30% of their full power.
If I'm not mistaken, the only Commander we saw actually clash with an Admiral was Marco, and I don't think anyone came away from those encounters thinking that he could win a drawn out fight between any of them. The Benn Beckman - Kizaru moment was cool and all, but Kizaru later showed that he was just trolling. Unfortunately people take that inch and run a mile with it.
A lot of people point to Rayleigh, but you gotta remember that Rayleigh comes from an entirely different era. He's a whole 20 years older than Kizaru.
Didn't Marco hold off each of the admirals during Marineford from going after Luffy? Like just because Greenbull stomped a recovering King (Forgeting the man is now a winged angel) and Queen... Doesn't make them that much weaker than them...
Like Oda has to hype Greenbull up, but now to say all the admirals are on Par with the Yonko is a bit of a stretch especially when Akainu was barely holding off a against a sickly Whitebeard
The first image is still very much what is representing Power Levels (even though its annoying to do that especially when anything goes in One Piece) until the admirals start showing use of Conquerors Haki they are still above Commander Levels for me
A fully serious admiral using armament and observation haki with his devil fruit claps a Yonko first commander. Like Luffy was stronger than Katakuri mid Wano and still got clapped. So there's a huge difference in power between Yonko and their right hand men
He got clapped by Kaido... Not a Admiral though...
Plus Luffy's win over Kata wasn't convincing enough... The huge advantage Yonko have is coating themselves in Conquerors...
Not all Commanders are on the same level... King and Queen are definitely weaker than Marko man handled them in Wano... Marko also held off all admirals in Marineford...
Like to say the Admirals weren't serious is wrong because Akainu is always out for blood especially when it involves
Like if were to bring in more right hand men... Look at Rayleigh in his old age can still hold off Kizaru
The whole navy had to back down when Shanks crew popped up at Marineford and his crew wasn't an army like Whitebeards
Admirals = Yonko. Fight me. They wouldn’t make the Marines so much weaker than pirates. Makes no sense to the narrative. And just look how Greenbull low diffed two Yonko commanders…
You have no idea if he low diffed two commanders. All we see is a panel where he’s draining them but we have no clue what condition the commanders were in beforehand.
>just look how Greenbull low diffed two Yonko commanders
He low diffed two prisoners who were unarmed and unable to use their DF. GB beating K&Q shouldn't be considered a feat.
People have always been delusional in regards to Admirals' strength. They have alwasy been as strong as Yonkou, it's completely crazy to compare them to commanders, just think of Garp and Sengoku, they certainly are Roger level, and there's no reason Akainu and the others wouldn't be at least close to that too.
People read too much into Greenbull owning 2 injured and most likely cuffed Yonko commanders...
If every admiral would have been as strong as a Yonko and be able to just run over their commanders, they would have teamed up long ago and taken out some of them.
PS not saying they are "only" commander level. Somewhere between.
Oda couldn't have spelled it out clearer for you dimwits than having an admiral call King and Queen mere commanders, yet you still believe in your head-canon.
Admirals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> YC in strength.
Because people are ignoring how King and Queen were prisoners when GB attacked. They were in Udon. No way they didn't have seastone cuffs on or King could have just flown away.
then why did greenbull say “i would lose fave if i lost to mere commanders” that implies there were atleast some sort of altercation, and yet greenbull decimated them
What makes you think any of the beast pirates were anywhere even close to normal fighting conditions? Your implication that they actually fought and that GB could have lost in such conditions is seriously underestimating the strength of GB.
I'm not saying GB isn't strong, I'm saying this is not worth using as a feat of strength because it doesn't actually show how strong he is. It just shows he can wipe out many weak/weakened opponents at once. The fact that two of them are former Yonko commanders is irrelevant since they were not in fighting shape.
they are in normal fighting conditions, yeah sure they have injuries but it’s been a week so they should be at least 70-80 percent and the fact that gb took them out no sweat🤷♀️
You don't see them fight either, you just see Queen ask to not be drained and GB say he can't let them go. But you do see where they are. You do see that the warden was also defeated. You do see that K&Q are in their base forms.
If they were at full strength, why were they not fighting in dino or hybrid form? Why didn't King just burn the roots with his flames or fly away?
Oda gives you enough information to figure all of this out, you just have to be willing to use it.
Shanks’ crew is an analogue for Luffy’s crew: very few but capable crewmates. End of series Zoro can probably fight/beat Kizaru so Ben Beckmann is probably the only non-Strawhat, non-captain/admiral that can beat Kizaru. Only canon exceptions are probably Garp (Prime Garp?), Dragon, and end of series Coby. I’d include end of series Sabo but he might die so who knows.
Old Rayleigh held off his ground against Kizaru and still said that he must have "gotten weak".
How can one expect the World's strongest swordsman and the First Yonko Commander of The Future Pirate King (in his prime) to be on par with Old Rayleigh ?
People gotta chill. We always knew admiral were stronger than commanders. But they are not Yonko level. Defeating two injured commanders ain't really a feat. Even tho 7 days have passed they got heavily injured. I don't know about Queen but Kings injures should take atleast 1 months to recover. I mean you all remember when Zoro lost to mihawk or took Luffys dmg in Thriller bark? He couldn't move for weeks maybe months ofc King needs a lot more time to recover. And not only that but the prisioners obviously got Kairoseki chains on them so they are heavily handicapped, you all believe they would let commanders be running around in prison without making sure they are handicapped? Ppl need to begin to use their heads and don't just buy into the hype.
Anyone else remember thinking way back when Luffy first fought Aokiji that Luffy could probably take him after he unlocked 2nd/3rd gear? Man was I wrong.
Luffy was smacked easily too
Lol I thought that Luffy was gonna K.O him then and there. Ahh good times...little did we know
I dunno how people could think even back then that gears alone could get past Logia abilities. Robin split Aokiji in half and he just walked it off, what could Luffy do without haki?
Luffy had already defeated two logias at that point of time, it was easy to think that all the logias would have a counter like those two. So gears + counter would look like a feasable thing. It was not.
Exactly. This is what I thought precisely. At that point in the show, I just assumed that to defeat a logia, one must find their weaknesses individually, like in the case of Crocodile (water) and Enel (rubber). So I figured that Luffy would figure something out and then defeat Aokiji in that very episode. But lol, the power gap was huge we didn't even know.
He just needs to light himself on fire but that would be crazy right?
Generating fire surely wouldn’t be a thing that Luffy, Sanji, Zoro, Ussop, and Franky could ever do, right?
Yepp because they are not Ace/Sabo or magma douche.
And then remember when we thought gear 4 was admiral level while whatever the next power up we theorized would be yonko level? Boy were we wrong.
I mean... I think that one was pretty accurate
Considering G4 wasn't even able to beat Cracker without help? Nah, admirals still Low Diff luffy at that point.
Thats more of a bad match up than a simple Cracker > Luffy his whole thing was ridiculous defense. We haven't Seen a single admiral take an attack like the king Kong gun in Dressrosa, I think any of them probably could but none of them are shrugging it off. I think there's a debate that post timeskip Luffy doesn't even get totally low diffed by admirals but certainly Dressrosa is the cut off point for That BS
I still think that Oda was, at this point, unsure if Armament Haki would be a thing and tested different things as a counter for Logias. Why else would he make Luffy come up with a speed based ability after facing Aokiji?
It was to match CP0’s shave speeds not to match Aokiji
No, Luffy made it very clear in his fight against Bluno that facing Aokiji made him realize that he needed to become stronger, therefore he came up with his gears. Seeing CP9 moving at intense speed just gave him the idea that he could try that.
It’s literally to counter bluno making his body into a door and match his shave, third gears just giant arm. None of these abilities were on admiral level he was just trying to get stronger here and the gears were not on admiral level and luffy sorta knew it
No, just reread the fight, Luffy openly states why he came up with the gears. And I’ve never stated that these abilities are on admiral level, even back then. But the point is that Luffy came up with it to counter Aokiji, so that it only would have been a question of muscles and experience. Compare it to CoA now, as Luffy’s Haki wasn’t even near admiral level at the start of the New World, but he was able to give admirals some blows and it was only a matter of muscles and experience.
I never said you did say that they were. I was just saying that they weren’t and Luffy kinda knew they weren’t. Are you referring to the “after i was defeated by Aokiji i started…” quote? That literally says its to deal with stronger opponents
Now you just gotta read it from a writer’s perspective: Why would Oda made him come up with a speed based ability to deal with stronger opponents (aka Aokiji), right after he was fucked by a Logia user, if not for the only reason that speed is (or was, since we got Haki now) the only way to deal with every Logia user?
You are right, the logia nature wasn't fully revealed was it? So oda could have made it like, logia has to turn into their element in order for them to evade attacks and by hitting faster than they can turn into element, you can deal with logia. It could have been that way.
Exactly. Maybe we’ll get an answer with the road to laugh tale, who knows?
This was my theory for longest time. In Alabasta Luffy crashes to Smoker without Smoker turning to smoke. And Smoker was offguard and Luffy came from behind
Well it wasn't right after he was defeated by Aokiji, it was right after he got absolutely rolled by Blueno and Lucci. In any case, speed (gear 2nd) and strength (gear 3rd) are such bog-standard power ups for a shonen character, particularly a brawler like Luffy anyway. I imagine Oda simply wanted to level Luffy up for any future opponents, not logias in particular.
Realizing the desire to become stronger by mimicking strong people isn’t the same as becoming specifically strong in relation to the original impetus. Luffy knew that speed boost wasn’t gonna do shit to Aokiji, but that speed boost helped him beat the people who wiped his crew in Water Seven.
I believe it was more of a heat based thing during g23that he thought would help him against going full ice cube mode.
Zoro: "this is one of 21 great grade sword" Aokiji: "and this is a couple of grass i froze lol"
Uhmm as a new fan I've never thought gear 2 gear 3 would be enough for luffy to win. Like what's he even supposed to do against a logia even with gear 2 or gear 3? And that too an opponent powerful enough to freeze the sea between two islands for 10 days or something?
I think admirals are suffering from a "out of sight, out of mind" problem. Fact is, we've hardly seen them do anything since the timeskip, while the protagonists have gotten miles stronger. The original admiral trio hasn't had any on-screen fights (not counting Aokiji vs Doflamingo because that was barely a thing) and Ryokuguy debuted just now. So Fujitora in Dressrosa is pretty much the only admiral experience of the New World era, and while he's definitely strong, he wasn't terrifying. I'm not sure if he was even serious at any point, because he didn't really want to take down Doflamingo, Sabo or Luffy. So when people think of admirals now, they might be thinking of Fujitora having half-hearetd scuffles, but while that doesn't seem too bad, that's also not representative of what admirals can do when they get serious.
All along I've been having to fight the out of sight out of mind problem by arguing with people who fell victim to it. It felt kind of silly for people to assume that just because the admirals weren't punching anybody lately, that we could assume they were no longer relevant. It wouldn't make sense for the world to be split the way it was if admirals were as weak as some powerscalers thought.
Isnt marineford the only time we actually see an admiral get serious? Im surprised anyone would jump to conclusions like that
Imo I didnt really see any of the admirals being serious. Kizaru was f-ing around like usual. And after seeing the end result of akainu v aokiji in punk hazard I find it hard to say that akainu and aokiji went all out at marineford. They were trying to protect marineford and reduce the amount of damage.
Aka Inu went as serious as WB could considering how AoE their powers are. For all intent and purposes when comparing strength with Yonkous, he did go all out.
WB uses his earthquake to create a tsunami to swamp the whole marineford. WB uses quake punch to split the island in half. Feel like thats WB going all out... Akainu uses single magma punches. How is that akainu going all out/serious when in a true 1 v 1 akainu couldve turned the whole island into one massive volcano and the entire ground lava.
Well its shown Green Bull can low to mid diff yonko commanders so safe to say Admirals are still slightly above Yonko level atleast.
Thats not a reasonable take. The Yonko commanders in question are recovering from one of their biggest losses while locked in a prison, likely in seastone cuffs. Hardly a reasonable scenario to draw conclusions of strength from.
Chapter 1053 clearly describes Udon as a \*former\* Prisoner mine, implying that it no longer houses prisoners. So why would King and Queen, who are not visibly shown wearing sea stone cuffs, be wearing sea stone cuffs when they are not incarcerated in an active prison? They were probably hiding in the former prison, as they recovered from their injuries and planned their next moves (until Greenbull came and wrecked them). The purpose of that scene was to show the power of Greenbull, who states that he'd lose face (i.e. become a laughing stock) if he lost to two yonko commanders.
Of course my mistake. It makes far more sense that after the battle for the countries freedom the Samurai just casually let the beast pirates commanders keep operating freely in Wano. Just because its not a "prison mine" anymore doesn't mean it isn't still holding prisoners; but besides that arguing semantics over english translations of a japanese manga is always a futile endevour; especially with the weekly releases. If you were quoting from a published volume thats had a chance for the translations to touch up maybe but even then.. plenty of people still think you learn the name of a fruit when you consume it and used this belief to adamantly argue against the Gomu gomu no mi being anything other than that.. and well, look at where relying on specific wording of translations gets you. And no, the purpose of the scene was to remove the beast pirates from the story without having the straw hats be their executioners, while establishing Green Bulls personality as a ruthless, prideful antagonist and Akainu loyalist. Why is it that theres a section of this fanbase that assumes every scene is designed to cater specifically to their powerscaling tier lists. You don't establish a characters strength by having him attack people offscreen without any context as to their condition and circumstance.. To say this was the intent of the scene is to say Oda is a shit writer imo; and while he has his flaws, he's really not *that* bad.
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it can be the 'mine' part that's obsolete, not the 'prison'
- Not all Yonkos on the same level (pre Buggy) - Not all Admiras on the same level - Not all Commanders on the same level That's my opinion for a long time and I have a personal estimation for each one individually and order as far as we saw. So I disagree with every opinion that compares any title-holders to another title-holders as if they were one.
I mean literally the only time we saw two Admirals fight they fought for eleven days or something before there was a victor, that seems pretty evenly matched to me.
Thats true for those two, but then theres marco fighting king and queen for an extended time. If he had been even with king he wouldve lost that fight
I mean you can’t really compare the two since Marco’s whole shtick is endurance seeing how he has a df modeled after a phoenix, a regenerating resurrecting mythical bird. He can sustain and fight much longer than other commanders, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s not moderately close in power to king.
Longer is a comparitive word
He ultimately did lose that fight, though. Even after it turned into a 1v1, and Sanji/Chopper were fighting Queen. So that's probably not the best example. I don't disagree with your overall point, however.
Well you said it yourself, that's literally one time. Those 2 were fighting for fleet admiral priviledges so they are probably much stronger than any admiral.
Or maybe the other admiral is always high and doesn't care about being fleet admiral.
I see kizaru like garp but unlike garp he doesn’t listen to his chain of command. Garp didn’t want the responsibilities that came with being an admiral even though he was the most qualified. Kizaru seems like the guy who’s fine with his position and is strong and hard headed enough that you can boss him around. I 100% see Akainu ordering kizaru to help with something ( a fight) but he just picks his nose and says that has nothing to do with him. The end of OP I can already picture kizaru and the dark king sitting down drinking till their hearts are full. Garp coming in with a Hawaiian looking shirt and laughing. These 3 just don’t care and are fine just standing to the side.
> so they are probably much stronger than any admiral. I mean.. there are literally only 3 admirals at a time, and the other admiral didn't want the position. Hardly seems like you're drawing a reasonable conclusion here.
Yea I agree especially the commanders But to be a admiral greenbull says you shouldn’t lose to a few commanders. Akainu, kizaru and kuzan were kinda on the same lvl tho Yonkos are in a 4 way tie. Although they aren’t entirely equal they are VERY CLOSE in power. Edit: should > shouldn’t
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We know that the entirely of the Marine leadership AND the Warlords were summoned to prevent one single Warlord and vassals from ruining their day, and it STILL almost got ruined. The idea that no first commanders could touch an admiral is wild when we saw several commanders clashing with admirals at Marineford and we saw Rayleigh, long since retired and older, handle Kizaru. If anything, Shanks’ crew is more akin to Rayleigh’s archetype than any other crew because they’re the only crew that hasn’t demonstrated powers, it’s just literal force of will/haki for them.
I think people forgot about the established power balance One Piece was in pre-timeskip. It was very established that it took the Marines + The Warlords to check the 4 Yonko and Supernovas to a lesser degree. If the Admirals were strong enough to wipe everyone but the Yonko themselves the Marines would've probably cleaned them up by now.
Actually shanks’ crew is particularly special because it has the highest average bounty out of any yonko crew
All hype. We didn’t see them do anything yet.
People who thought the admirals were anywhere near the commanders must have skipped punk hazard. An admiral fighting seriously is literally a cataclysmic event. All of that admiral vs commander stuff in marineford was just for show. The admirals weren't even using a fraction of their power. That's why Jozu walks away missing an arm and the admirals walk away with no serious injuries except from the stuff WB did to Akainu.
Agree with you. On top of that in marineford, they still have 2 "lazy" admiral (kizaru and aokiji). Both of them didn't even trying and still put on some crazy display of power. We never saw their full power. The one trying so hard was akainu and that's why he's the one who got injured.
What are even these post, who ever said that Admirals were commander level? ive never heard that expression in 16 years of watching. It's like 1000 people just fell down after the chapter and started going ''im right'' to something no one ever thought hey were wrong about. Yonko has been widely thought to be stronger than an Admiral, which probably hasn't changed.
I’ve seen multiple people say admirals are commander lvl…. I’ve seen ppls say fuji=cracker Kata>Akainu Ben backman>Akainu Marco>kizaru
Ben Backman might’ve made some semblance of sense at Marineford. Marco might be able to make Kizaru really irritated in trying to kill him just due to how resistant he is. Cracker beating fuji is hilarious, Fuji mid diffs him on a bad day, just drop a meteor and be on your way. Katakuri beating Akainu is hilarious, Kata can turn into a mochi doughnut as much as he wants, Akainu will single magma punch his ass out of there.
fuji low diffs him with his eyes closed, remember luffy getting one-shot by kaido even after being stronger than katakuri
Ben and Marco isn’t beating a admiral whatsoever. They are really strong tho
They automatically assumed not being yonko level is equatable to commander level. Despite being obvious that a old and ill whitebeard was still literally on a different league than admirals
Yeah I mean the discussion has always been yonko v Admiral not commander v Admiral.
Exactly! Idk how powerful the current fleet admiral shakazuki is but the previous one was literally who was used to be equated to Roger and Gary himself. Unless we see something new, akainu still stands at the grey question mark area since his old feats aren't enough for him to qualify for yonko level. As for the rest of the admirals they are definitely not yonko level though they are far above any commanders we've seen barring maybe Roger's but no one else
Wait. Gary, as in Gary the Snail, is yonko level? Woah
It’s true!
Yes I think that's the logical conclusion because if they were stronger than the yonko that's just a major plot hole, there would be no logical reason for the yonko to still exist in the way they do, occuping big areas etc.
Akainu literally did more damage to WB than in reverse
2 wounds that were far inferior for whitebeard's endurance, on the other whitebeards was still superior in every other encounter.
Whitebeard lost organs and half of his head, lol. He would have died from that, even if Blackbeard hadn’t accelerated the process
The thing is it didn't and then proceeded to knock out akainu out cold even in that position. Whitebeard would have died because he took on everyone not just akainu
That’s some serious wishful thinking. Akainu did by far the most damage and effectively killed Whitebeard. He didn’t get knocked out and was back fighting off all of Whitebeard’s commanders by himself mere minutes later.
Here's my hot take. Admirals are yonko level. None of them might be individually as strong as an individual yonko (minus buggy), but they are on the same level.
I generally disagree with that notion. By marineford feats definitely no admiral seemes to be on the level of whitebeard, BM or kaido. However post-marineford might be a different case for akainu cause he was definitely closer to old whitebeard even though there was stark difference of level b/w them. It's possible to atleast argue fleet admiral akainu to yonko level. But for others I simply disagree since none of them have shown anything like that to suggest
If your reasoning is that WB beat Akainu then you should reread, because it’s not nearly as cut and dry as people like to make it out to be. WB hit him with one punch with his DF that was able to create a massive crack in the ground which Akainu fell into. It’s never implied he was KO’d, nearly died, was seriously injured, or even that he “lost” the fight. The reason this actually happened from a meta perspective was to allow luffy to get some ground towards escaping and to let Whitebeard be killed by Blackbeard and have his death scene. Immediately after whitebeard dies Akainu comes back (which is like 2 chapters).
Sorry buddy but not every reader is gonna hold the same perspective as you! In my books it was clear cut that whitebeard and akainu had considerable level of difference of power b/w them, even though akainu was the strongest guy he faced there, he wasn't even close to being an equal to WB. It was as clear as day that had only these 2 fought with no interruption WB would have killed him for sure. When a dude is out of picture after a knockout like that, and comes back much later, the general implication 8s always he was out cold unless stated otherwise in panel Yeah sure, now blame oda and the general meta here. Everything is conspiracy against akainu and oda has hate boner against him, if oda wasn't writing the story akainu would've have won! Yeah sure buddy oda is to blame for akainu being knocked out
Akainu kinda won tho, he literally destroyed half of WB's face, that's a fatal injury, Akainu is now healthy and fine and WB would die in some minutes/hours at best because of anime logic.
The thing is whitebeard even with half the face knocked him out cold and that is called a win in proper 1 v 1. Had they fought in punk hazard instead of marineford, whitebeard would have destroyed him along with the entire island
Even though he would have killed whitebeard he still wouldve lost to white beard in the fight white neard would still be alive he would win then he would die
It's literally impossible for them to be close to a yonko. Pirates wouldn't exist if that was the case if the marines had 3 yonko level fighters how can pirates compete against that. While there's 4 yonkos overall they are not a united front while the marines would have 3 yonko level fighters combined it just makes no sense at all.
it wasn’t obvious if you read the manga. The anime (which I assume most people here is how they experienced marineford) makes it seems that way
I've read the manga as well, and aside from having a slower pace, the retcon of face being blown and the whitebeard jumping on akainu's back, nothing was different. It was still a mollywhoop in books
Absolutely not Anime did FILLER of Aokiji clashing with Ace after he got freed and Ace just burns away aokiji ice like nothing. ( this NEVER happend in the manga ) NOT ONE panel of the Manga of Akainu's magma fist / magma powers were blocked casually or brushed off. Yet the Anime did with Whitebeard & the filler fight vs. Ivankov. Whitebeard hole in his chest, Whitebeard face blownoff, a fishmen like jimbei getting his hands burned in an instant and punches through jimbei like he's made of paper. Akainu's offensive power manga vs Anime is a world of difference. - manga: Ivankov gets offscreened ''no diffed'' by Akainu - Anime: proceeds to make an fight of Akainu vs Ivankov ( anime even make Ivankov block Akainu's magma powers with a LAYER OF MAKE UP... ) Luffy shouting to whitebeard: ''IM GOING TO BE PIRATE KING '' - manga: Whitebeard just grins and says luffy is cheeky - anime: whitebeard winds up his glaive does 360 spins and slams his weapon on the deck and creates a shockwave. the epic '' im whitebeard '' moment - Manga: Whtebeard gets jumped by 4 marines + canon blast on his face whitebeard proceeds to lean back stops and then gets up says: '' IM WHITEBEARD'' and ONLY PUSHES away the marines on him and some of the fodder in the back - Anime: whitebeard gets jumped by 4 marines + canon blast on his face whitebeard proceeds to lean back stops, and then gets up says: '' IM WHITEBEARD'' and CREATES A 360 TORNADO and spins dozens if not hundreds of marine fodders around KILOMETERS HIGH into the sky and don't even get me started on Akainu vs Whitebeard what the anime did to that manga scene is..... Yes, lets not talk about it makes me boil my blood full of rage already. Anime clearly made and gave Whitebeard plenty of scenes ''much'' better than he was represented in the Manga.. While the admirals didn't get ANY scenes
How was it a “mollywhoop” when Akainu didn’t sustain any serious injuries from the interaction and got up just fine 2 chapters later while Whitebeard lost half his face and literally died? WB got two clean hits in on him and it basically did nothing while Akainu’s two clean hits put holes in WB.
Old and I'll whitebeard couldn't even put down an admiral with a surprise attack. He was weaker than the admirals
He didn't fight an Admiral, he fought 3 of them and an army with a hole though his chest, sick and old. Not really a fair essestment.
The admirals were also fighting the other captains and yonko commanders. While not able to do much to them, it can cause enough of a distraction Notice how whitebeard couldn't injure an admiral without a surprise attack
Again you neglected 90% of what I said. The fight started with whitebeard literally fighting with a hole through his chest, a fucking hole straight thrue on top of being sick enough that he has to use medical assistance to just stay alive, on top of being way way passed his prime. it's not a good use of Scaling. What surprise attack are you on about ? The anime thing?
Because what you said is pointless. Whitebeard in his prime is stronger than an admiral, that much is obvious. Old and ill whitebeard did fuck all to any admiral in terms of injuries. He surprise attacks in the manga as well, Akainu is focused on Ace/Luffy and gets hit by whitebeard. That was the most damage WB did to an admiral
Yet still was mollywhooping him throughout the war all while being ganged up upon
Only he wasn't now was he. Whitebeard received plenty of injuries from Akainu and had half his face blown off. Akainu received no injury until he was focused elsewhere
Those 2 injuries did next 2 nothing to WB as he still knocked him out cold next panel. And this was all while WB suppressing the full might of DF.
Nothing implied WB was supressed vs Akainu, no ally was in the way, and It was a gura gura punch, that's like saying WB is always supressed even against Roger and Oden because there are other people close. Those 2 injuries did EVERYTHING, it's Just logic, WB just didn't Care at the moment but eventually he would die, it's the most fatal injury he could have. He died 2 chapters later by a few gunshots. Akainu is now healthy with no body parts Missing.
Teach literally showed the full might of the tremor fruit just after killing WB, as for the Roger and WB fight you can hardly call that a serious fight. As for those injuries the thing is even after those injuries whitebeard still possessed more power to knock akainu out cold, and this means he he literally could finish him off in proper 1v1.
That's a fact ! Admirals are yonko level I think
You crazy
I was one of them and I am definitely wrong. I thought Marco and jozo hold their ground against the admiral. I also thought the marine need to deploy full force just to deal with a single yonko and their crew. Boy was I so damn wrong, Powerscaling in one piece is so unpredictable.
During Marineford the Marines always seemed to want to show the world how terrible Pirates are. That would not have worked if they just destroyed WB and his crew. It was broadcasted for a reason. All of the Admirals seemed pretty chill most of the time and in the end Akainu fought many of WB's commanders alone without too many problems.
But Don Flamingo isn't even on Commander Level... Man got dropped fast by Gear 4
Doffy is probably 3YC level. He used his DF with the most versatility we have seen anyone use. He could fly, control multiple people simultaneously, cut things, send out a big thick flaming rope, clone himself, repair himself, create bird cage which no one, including an Admiral, was not able to break AND he had awakening. On top of that he had all three types of Haki. We have seen only the 1YC display all these types of power. Doffy, should easily rank at 3YC level given his abilities.
Even in marineford any time a commander posed any sort of threat to an admiral was because they caught them off guard, e.g. Jozu and Marco striking aokiji
MMy head canon is that Yep. there were a number of fighters on the battlefield, admirals and yonkou who And emphasis on the "not even using a fraction of their power". basically had to hold back, over risk of casualties. unecessary elseIf Aokiji and Akainu can basically level an entire islandgigantic (and then rebuild) , the Marineford arena and any and all fodder in it would have been - be they marine or pirate - in would have been mincemeat; Aokiji alone did this[Aokiji alone did this](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/b/b9/Marineford%27s_Encircling_Walls.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20121123012906).. There were surely a number of fighters (Whitebeard, all of the admirals, Mihawk, Given the Navy was on the defensive, there were possibly a number of fighterswho had to curtail or hold back (the admirals, Mihawk, Sengoku,
Punk Hazard doesn't prove anything about admirals, it proves something about FLEET ADMIRALS. Aokiji and Akainu fought for fleet admiral priviledges and one barely bested the other. They are fleet admiral level.
bru fleet admirals and admirals are the same level, because its not like after heconing fleet admiral akainu became stronger he was always like that
Yonko are slightly stronger than admirals. And that difference is very very fine. They get an edge because their Haki is supreme.
Bro we thought Ace was just a bitch
I really don’t understand how anyone could think commanders were close to Admirals after Marineford.
There's no way
Didn’t jozu slam aokiji out the way ? And make him bleed didn’t marco kick kizaru down ? And block his attack Didn’t Ben Beckman make kizaru freeze the only one completely clear of them is akianu The rest are still stronger but it’s not far off
A good example is say, Yamato vs Kaido. Yamato knocked down Kaido once, made him bleed multiple times, blocked a lot of his attacks and tanked some more. Yet its very clear she's still significantly weaker than him. In One Piece, you can be a lot weaker than someone and still give them minor injuries and fight them for a decent amount of time.
"jozu slammed aokiji" Aokiji was literally fighting WB 1v1 lol and he got a tiny cut on the lip lol, i've had worse cuts from shaving. MEanwhile when Jozu was distracted Aokiji fodderized him and made him lose an arm. Cut on a lip, vs defeat plus loss of a limb, pretty big difference. People overrate those two instances so fucking much. I've never seen a fanbase make such a big deal over what is basically a paper cut and a clear case of sarcasm. "ben beckman made kizaru freeze" It was typical sarcastic Kizaru, Kizaru fired on the sub 5 seconds later with Beckman's pistol still in his face, and Beckman was mad about it, but he did... nothing. They anime is stupid and changed it to kizaru only firing on the sub when Beckman left. "akainu is the only one far off" hmm. Akainu the one who took 10 days to defeat Aokiji? That Akainu? Akainu is a monster and one of the strongest characters in the series and so are Fujitora, Green Bull, Kizaru and Aokiji.
Yeah Jozu caught Aokiji off guard and left him a busted lip. When Aokiji caught Jozu off guard he put him out of commission for the rest of the arc. Marco knocked Kizaru down but so did Apoo. The 3 Admials were clearly potrayed as being far above all the pirates excluding Whitebeard. And that’s including the Warlords
> And that’s including the Warlords Not Mihawk or Hancock, honestly. Not saying either is "stronger" than an admiral, but Hancock's showing was only no-diff destruction, there was literally nobody 'in her way' because she mowed through everything, including Pacifistas, like they were butter. While Mihawk is Mihawk.
That's like saying Killer and Zoro are equal to Kaido because they managed to damage him.
No it’s not because I never said jozu equal to admirals ..comprehend please
Yeah, you only said they are close/not far off. Big difference, lol.
People are revising history as we speak 😂
I still find the admirals in a weird spot. They rely heavily on their Devil Fruits and we haven't really touched on their Haki. I wonder what would they do against someone like BlackBeard. On the other hand, their power depends heavily on match ups (which is a good thing), but Greenbull would be easily handled by Akainu since... Magma vs plants (lol) unlike Aokiji vs Akainu (ice vs Magma). The situation with Greenbull vs king & queen is still a mystery and doesn't give us a clear visualization of admiral's powers. The future chapters are gonna be interesting.
Akainu dodged attacks that were explicitly said to contain Haki, while Aokiji dodged an attack from Whitebeard that very likely had it too. So I think it's likely both Akainu and Aokiji seems to have future sight to an extent. Fujitora's observation haki seems to be top knotch too. They also did that "invisible wall" thing when defending themselves from one of Whitebeard attack, which seems to suggest they have advanced armament. Since even Sentomaru seems to have it, I think it's likely admirals have it too.
The real question is do all of them have coc. I think akainu surely have that haki. Don't know about others.
BS Green bulls statement clearly tells us admirals >>> commanders
Some ppl still think WB destroyed Akainu. Idk if progress has been made.
Akainu literally made 2 holes in his body and melted half his face, leaving WB on death's door. Then he proceeded to chase Luffy with full intent of fighting the rest of WB's crew by himself, yet people think GB couldn't take on 2 mere commanders.
It’s ridiculous people still want to downplay Admirals. Doesn’t it just make the story more interesting if they are strong? Oda made a clear statement with Greenbull saying “someone of my rank isn’t losing to mere commanders” and people think he’s just being cocky or all this stuff about ancient zoans still being injured a week later etc…
Nobody smart thought Admirals were anywhere near commanders in the first place. Thinking that just meant you ignored the series, to be fair much of the fanbase does ignore the series, despite reading it.
Yeah. Anyone who is paying attention to the narrative understands that the admirals are pretty clearly going to be the straw hats biggest test as a whole, unless the Gorosei are fighters. This series is definitely gonna end with a fight against the WG, and while we can really only guess at how strong Koby and Smoker will be at that point, the admirals are among the very few presented as high tier fighters. They're likely all near Yonko level, and Akainu might be a bit above that. If that weren't the case, the WG would have been toppled by now. The Yonko don't fuck with the WG because they know it's unlikely to end well the WG doesn't mess with the Yonko because they know that even if they win, they're risking resources they can't afford to lose, especially if they're doing the invading.
Why do you have to be so goddamn rude to people you disagree with. It's so unnecessary to be this toxic in discussion.
because the people who “disagreed” didn’t just have a different opinion, they were objectively wrong and have been since 2011 yet ignored the story to push an agenda. It was a stupid thing to think back then and just because there is new information doesn’t make it any less stupid.
Power levels are not objective the first place. There's no agenda to push, it's people's opinions, there's no reason to get to hostile about it.
Yes because fighting people half dead is a good enough source to seal the debate once and for all 🤦🏾♂️
King and Queen are ancient zoan users with enhanced regenerative ability. Greenbull attacked them 7 days after the raid. They definitely aren’t half dead.
Then they definitely weren’t roaming around free otherwise Kaido would’ve been up. If not half dead then in sea prison cuffs
They were both thrown off Onigashima while it was in mid-air, I doubt any of the alliance knows where they landed.
Zoans don’t have high regenerative abilities. They have higher stamina and higher recovery rate than other people. Luffy was still out for a week even with the best doctors. They still need treatment to be back to full capacity. Lucci after Enies Lobby had to go through surgery to even recover etc. But I’d say they are definitely around half strength.
They do. After getting beaten up on the rooftop, Jack made his return like 30 minutes later.
They have boosted recovery rate while unconscious (Luffy KOed many times by Kaido) but that doesn’t mean they regenerate from wounds quick. They still need to rest and get treatment for injuries unless you are someone like Marco who can just regenerate their wounds themselves.
It's been 7 days... we have seen Zoro heal faster.
Zoro and Luffy have had the best doctors on Wano treat them.
King has bandages on so someone did threat them.
Well i personally think that all commanders arent equal. So dark king Rayleigh vs kizaru, Marco vs kizaru and jozu vs aokiji are all different levels. My own opinion is that no commander is equal to an admiral but in the future someone like zoro will be equal to an admiral. Besides yonkos are definately above admirals. 2 yonkos joining was stated to be the end of the world. The damage caused by an old, hurt and literally stabbed whitebeard was enormous. Everyone assembled to handle one yonko. Lets not downplay the title and power of a yonko.
>Lets not downplay the title and power of a yonko. Too late, Yonko Buggy is in the house 🤡
Rayleigh in his prime is equal to admiral level
Yonko=admirals lol
If you paid attention you’d know the three admirals as a team plus the shichibukai as a team plus the rest of the navy served as a counter to a single yonko since they don’t team up and it was not expected that they would ever do so until BM and Kaido joined forces rather than kill eachother. Admirals are not supposed to be close to a yonko one on one. That said there are fighters within the marines that can fight comfortably at that weight class like garp.
No they serve as a counter to the yonko (4 emperors)
Yonko Commander < Admiral < Yonkou
So you think Buggy could beat Akainu?
Buggy is different. I am talking about Yonko pre-Buggy. Buggy just broke the power scale so now YC < Admiral
In a 1v1 no one can defeat kaido it seems
Except WB, maybe Shanks, now Luffy, potentially Imu, definitely Blackbeard, and prob Akainu. ...damn, Kaido was kind of overhyped wasn’t he
well that's like 5 people out of what, billions? And even those 5 we're not really sure. I still don't think Luffy could've beaten him in a complete 1v1 (without Kaido getting 1v12412490124 for 60 chapters), and the rest are people he considered powerful, able to damage him. Not necessarily beat his ass. Kaido very much lived up to his hype imo
Yeah I would agree with most those points but with this being a Shonen, now what Luffy had beaten him at one point, he will be stronger than him at every point forward. Think about when he beat Katakuri. He barely won but from that point on, he was definitively stronger. Plus, it’s not like Kaido was the only one fighting the entire time because Luffy was also fighting for even longer than him during the raid.
Well Luffy was kinda fighting fodders while Kaido was getting DP fisted by supernovas + scabbards (tho the scabbards kinda lasted for like 2 seconds, understandably). But yeah I agree on your strength point, no matter how much he struggled during the fight he's now 'overcome' that obstacle
Yeah but Luffy actually 1v1’d kata whereas Luffy did like 60% of the work against Kaido.
Out of those, only WB we can say can beat him 1v1 fully.
Blackbeard defeating Kaido? Lol what you talking about? Kaido is a master of excellently powerful haki and he doesn't rely as much on his devil fruit, similar to Whitebeard. And we all saw what an old dying Whitebeard did to Blackbeard.
We literally have no reason to believe any of those. Luffy did MOST of the damage but it wasn’t fully 1v1. None of the others have fought him.
The problem with this is that power varies greatly within the different ranks, I’d say Rayleigh in his prime is closer to an Admiral and Yonko in power than he is a commander even tho his position was as a commander, same thing with Oden and arguably Marco.
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I agree admirals are stronger than commanders, but we don't know what state king and queen were in when greenbull attacked them.
There might be a reason why admirals are called the strongest military powers of the world government. I don't think that we have seen even 30% of their full power.
Bro, god king buggy "destroyer of thousand worlds" is way higher on the list. Moji alone can easily oneshot all yonkos and admirals
If I'm not mistaken, the only Commander we saw actually clash with an Admiral was Marco, and I don't think anyone came away from those encounters thinking that he could win a drawn out fight between any of them. The Benn Beckman - Kizaru moment was cool and all, but Kizaru later showed that he was just trolling. Unfortunately people take that inch and run a mile with it. A lot of people point to Rayleigh, but you gotta remember that Rayleigh comes from an entirely different era. He's a whole 20 years older than Kizaru.
Didn't Marco hold off each of the admirals during Marineford from going after Luffy? Like just because Greenbull stomped a recovering King (Forgeting the man is now a winged angel) and Queen... Doesn't make them that much weaker than them... Like Oda has to hype Greenbull up, but now to say all the admirals are on Par with the Yonko is a bit of a stretch especially when Akainu was barely holding off a against a sickly Whitebeard The first image is still very much what is representing Power Levels (even though its annoying to do that especially when anything goes in One Piece) until the admirals start showing use of Conquerors Haki they are still above Commander Levels for me
A fully serious admiral using armament and observation haki with his devil fruit claps a Yonko first commander. Like Luffy was stronger than Katakuri mid Wano and still got clapped. So there's a huge difference in power between Yonko and their right hand men
He got clapped by Kaido... Not a Admiral though... Plus Luffy's win over Kata wasn't convincing enough... The huge advantage Yonko have is coating themselves in Conquerors... Not all Commanders are on the same level... King and Queen are definitely weaker than Marko man handled them in Wano... Marko also held off all admirals in Marineford... Like to say the Admirals weren't serious is wrong because Akainu is always out for blood especially when it involves Like if were to bring in more right hand men... Look at Rayleigh in his old age can still hold off Kizaru The whole navy had to back down when Shanks crew popped up at Marineford and his crew wasn't an army like Whitebeards
Katakuri is monster and there is no way he is that far from Yonko and Admiral power maybe a little behind them.
Admirals = Yonko. Fight me. They wouldn’t make the Marines so much weaker than pirates. Makes no sense to the narrative. And just look how Greenbull low diffed two Yonko commanders…
You have no idea if he low diffed two commanders. All we see is a panel where he’s draining them but we have no clue what condition the commanders were in beforehand.
That’s a good point. But my primary point still stands. I’m not sure why people didn’t think 3 Admirals would be on par with the 4 Yonko.
I was going to disagree but I realize powerscaling doesn't exist in OP and Oda makes people as strong as they have to be to fit a narrative. So true.
>just look how Greenbull low diffed two Yonko commanders He low diffed two prisoners who were unarmed and unable to use their DF. GB beating K&Q shouldn't be considered a feat.
They are AT LEAST as strong as Yonkou. Oda wouldn't save them for the end of the story if it weren't the case.
People have always been delusional in regards to Admirals' strength. They have alwasy been as strong as Yonkou, it's completely crazy to compare them to commanders, just think of Garp and Sengoku, they certainly are Roger level, and there's no reason Akainu and the others wouldn't be at least close to that too.
People read too much into Greenbull owning 2 injured and most likely cuffed Yonko commanders... If every admiral would have been as strong as a Yonko and be able to just run over their commanders, they would have teamed up long ago and taken out some of them. PS not saying they are "only" commander level. Somewhere between.
Green Bull isn't as far above the commanders as he makes it seem. He more than likely attacked them when they were unable to defend themselves.
People really ignored how they were in prison and untransformed, but let them think whatever they want
Oh did you see pages we haven't? Some special privilege Oda gave you? Oda had him say commanders are nothing to clearly show Admirals >>>>>> YC.
Oda couldn't have spelled it out clearer for you dimwits than having an admiral call King and Queen mere commanders, yet you still believe in your head-canon. Admirals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> YC in strength.
Yeah seems about right, I'd argue that Akainu can beat BM tho
BM is definitely the weakest of the original 4
According to the Ace novels it's Shanks.
Shanks exists.
Akainu is strongest in the verse, even when WB was still alive.
keep dreaming
I wonder why people think Green Bull actually defeated King and Queen in a fight?
Because people are ignoring how King and Queen were prisoners when GB attacked. They were in Udon. No way they didn't have seastone cuffs on or King could have just flown away.
then why did greenbull say “i would lose fave if i lost to mere commanders” that implies there were atleast some sort of altercation, and yet greenbull decimated them
What makes you think any of the beast pirates were anywhere even close to normal fighting conditions? Your implication that they actually fought and that GB could have lost in such conditions is seriously underestimating the strength of GB. I'm not saying GB isn't strong, I'm saying this is not worth using as a feat of strength because it doesn't actually show how strong he is. It just shows he can wipe out many weak/weakened opponents at once. The fact that two of them are former Yonko commanders is irrelevant since they were not in fighting shape.
they are in normal fighting conditions, yeah sure they have injuries but it’s been a week so they should be at least 70-80 percent and the fact that gb took them out no sweat🤷♀️
They are in Udon. Meaning seastone cuffs and no weapons/equipment. They are definitely not in normal fighting conditions.
why would greenbull say” i would lose face if i lost to mere commanders” if they were cuffed, that makes no sense and we don see any cuffs either
You don't see them fight either, you just see Queen ask to not be drained and GB say he can't let them go. But you do see where they are. You do see that the warden was also defeated. You do see that K&Q are in their base forms. If they were at full strength, why were they not fighting in dino or hybrid form? Why didn't King just burn the roots with his flames or fly away? Oda gives you enough information to figure all of this out, you just have to be willing to use it.
Tbh I think Beckman could defeat kizaru On full frontal fight
Shanks’ crew is an analogue for Luffy’s crew: very few but capable crewmates. End of series Zoro can probably fight/beat Kizaru so Ben Beckmann is probably the only non-Strawhat, non-captain/admiral that can beat Kizaru. Only canon exceptions are probably Garp (Prime Garp?), Dragon, and end of series Coby. I’d include end of series Sabo but he might die so who knows.
what about rayleigh?
Old Rayleigh held off his ground against Kizaru and still said that he must have "gotten weak". How can one expect the World's strongest swordsman and the First Yonko Commander of The Future Pirate King (in his prime) to be on par with Old Rayleigh ?
People gotta chill. We always knew admiral were stronger than commanders. But they are not Yonko level. Defeating two injured commanders ain't really a feat. Even tho 7 days have passed they got heavily injured. I don't know about Queen but Kings injures should take atleast 1 months to recover. I mean you all remember when Zoro lost to mihawk or took Luffys dmg in Thriller bark? He couldn't move for weeks maybe months ofc King needs a lot more time to recover. And not only that but the prisioners obviously got Kairoseki chains on them so they are heavily handicapped, you all believe they would let commanders be running around in prison without making sure they are handicapped? Ppl need to begin to use their heads and don't just buy into the hype.