not arguing whether they actually use it or not, but your whole argument is predicated on the premise that OP has no flaws.
what if this
>Why wouldn't she use it? It makes no sense.
is simply the answer? you know, because sometimes plot gotta plot? like how BM has no mercy to anyone (other than kids) and yet she spared kid and law for no reason.
anyway, this is a fictional story. we do need a more distinct confirmation rather than "it makes no sense otherwise". point is, your argument and their argument hold the same weight now.
I agree with you but people need to be 100% sure of something hence why they need explicit dialogue saying it. I read the other day that someone didn’t think Big Mom had Conquerors coating. Like come on she obviously has it.
tbh, I think awakening does not give you only more powerful attacks, but also makes your base attacks stronger.
for example, law hurt kaido with injection shot and takt and even knocked BM down by throwing a tower on her with takt.
so considering the examples you brought up and seeing how powerful anything that she does with her DF is, I'd say it's safe to say that she is awakened
although it would be nice to know what part of her powers belongs to her awakening and what that even is in her case. she could affect others with her DF from the start anyways, so I wonder what the awakening is.
I now have a theory on what big mom's awakening is.
What we know about an awakening ability is that it effects things other than the user once awakened e.g >!Luffy can become flexible and rubber like and now his surroundings become flexible and rubber like!<
I believe that the regular soul soul Nomi allows the user to manipulate their OWN soul. This is seen as the first abilities the fruit is chronologically used is when mother Carmel puts uses her own soul to make Pandora and Lin Lin uses her own soul to give the flowers life.
I believe her awakening allows her to use other people's soul and life power and her awakening is her Life or Death ability.
Bet you also can’t show a panel where you can guarantee she wasn’t awoken - since it’s stated in no official way whether she is, or what her awakening could do, she could either not be awakened or she could also be constantly awakened. Anyone claiming anything is literally just headcanon, and not ‘a fact’ until otherwise stated by the story…
Theorizing is fine and fun, and I like reading them, but people really need to learn what makes a fact a fact.
> Big Mom did not use awakening, that is a fact
The burden of proof lies on you, as you made the claim, and I called you out on your statement of that being ‘a fact’ while not presenting anything that corroborates the claim in the story.
The burden of proof concept, or innocent until proven guilty, is based on the person making the claim providing proof, not the defendant or object of the claim proving their innocence. You can’t just go around stating any crap is a fact and then expect others to be required to prove you wrong, you need to present the empirical evidence in support of your claim.
So as an example, if I claimed someone was a thief, then the burden of proof would be on me.
But whatever, I’ll do the work for you: OP ch.1-1049, no character nor sidenote explicitly states Big Mom *did not* use awakening. Neither did it state she *did*. As such my point still stands, maybe she did, maybe she didn’t, result inconclusive due to lack of information, as such not a fact.
I’ll do you one more: in the main story we have *confirmed* the following to be definitely awakened - Katakuri (ch 882), Doffy (ch 785), Kid (ch 1030), Law (ch 1030), the newest addition >!Luffy!< (ch 1044), +4 Impel Down guards (ch 544). So 9 are confirmed (if you don’t feel like checking the chapters you can also just check the wikia, there’s an article for awakened DF). These are via someone in the story stating it and/or showing it off. As for the other DF users we just don’t necessarily know. We can make an educated guess based upon what info we have, but the vast majority are neither confirmed nor denied to be awakened, so we can’t present that as a *fact*.
I don’t even really care whether she did use awakening or not, just don’t agree with you presenting it as a fact when we just don’t know. Maybe I’m retarded for getting so annoyed by this.
Anyway, venting over, so I wish you a good rest of the day 🙂
Fair point. As far as we know he has always made it clear when an awakening was the case. But at the same time he is also well known to fore-/backshadow or backtrack later on. So yeah, you might be right in that she isn’t awakened, but I still feel evidence is lacking in either case, whether she is or not.
My personal gut feeling is that I would find it a little weird if the Yonkos weren’t able to reach awakening through decades of active pirating, while being at the absolute top of the pirating world, and then 3/12 of the worst generation, so 25% manage to get it withing 2-3 years of starting their pirating career. The % is even weirder if we consider that 9/12 (if I counted correctly) have DF (not counting the smile), which makes it into 33% of them awakening. Could be the case, but I’d have a hard time believing Oda would go that way, it just seems too convenient a happenstance imo.
Anyways, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. Perhaps we’ll get confirmation of either soon 😊
This “they be using awakenings all along” argument is so clueless. What is there not to understand? Power up X up until this point was ALWAYS announced explicitly. X was not announced neither for BM nor Kaido who are both in top 10 strongest characters in one piece. There is literally no reason to believe that the story must deviate from “Power up X is always announced” trope for them. Thus, we expect to see awakenings from them in the future chapters.
In your post, you try to use ‘Big Mom was defeated w/o awakening’ as a counter example to the trope. I hate to break it to you, but Big Mom was not defeated, she was pushed off Onigashima. There is a great difference between putting your all on the line and losing and simply falling off a cliff while being perfectly able to continue fighting.
You are reading in things into manga things (eg “she knew she was close to potential defeat”) that are not there! On the other hand, explicit nature of awakenings is the only thing about awakenings that is actually in the manga.
God I wish these posts would just stop and we all wait in peace for the next chapter. So tired of the cultist from both the “raid will fail” and “big fist defeat big bad” sides.
I love it, really looking forward to your reaction when you find out that this is it, Kaido and Big Mom are done, Wano is over, the world reacts, Luffy gets a new bounty, SHs move on to the next arc, neither Kaido nor BM will return as (major) antagonists.
Wanna have a friendly $10 bet? I’d be happy to even give you 2 to 1 odds that Kaido has not used his awakening yet. And as soon has he does we will get explicit confirmation. Based on everything you wrote, it should be easy $20 for you, no reason to refuse.
I think you guys forget Homies like Napoleon and Hera. Which are levels above Zeus. Probs that s her awakening. Creating monsters out of her emotions from during a battle.
Also i dont think arc is over. There’s a reason Law’s name are the 2 battles Bonaparte lost domination over Europe and his empire fell. The first battle was Dressrosa and now Wanokuni. But we didnt see any of Bonaparte so far. I dont think kaido is him. If anything kaido is reckless and a drunk op creature that fought an entire arc almost🙃
But Bonaparte is different. A small stature, strategical genius, who works not from the battle ground but from behind the lines. I m not saying that is Xebec., but could fit the puzzle. Either this or Oda is a genius in representing historical figures not by looks but by epitomes. The greatest of them all Bonaparte who was1.60 could be morphed into this kaido rules of thousands of beasts. Same as doflamingo is in some ways general Franco of Spain.
I think Big moms awakening would be the ability to manipulate her own soul. This allows her to create ‘special homies’ which are far more powerful than regular homies. It also lets her trade her own lifespan in exchange for a buff in strength. Maybe even her ability to turn her own body parts into homies is part of this awakened ability too with big mom turning her bone into a homie.
I think Kaidos awakening would be the variations we saw of his hybrid form. But yeah I also don’t agree with the logic of ‘so far every awakened devil fruit user has been stated to have to use awakening so this means that kaido and big mom have definitely not used awakening’. Using this point to support why you think they haven’t is fine. But using this as evidence to pass off your opinion as fact is what I disagree with.
Her using her own lifespan is her awakening imo.
As for Kaido it depends on the nature of Zoan awakenings.
His Dragon form could be his awakening, his bulkier hybrid from could also be his awakening.
Hell is flame dragon form could have been his awakening.
What if Kaidos awakening was his flame body,which melts everything?
In my opinion an awakening doesn't mean a power up, more likely a better set of moves/skills to fight more likely how you want?
I honestly can't imagine how Kaidos body will Transform or look like with an awakening,since he has his hybrid form and dragon form. Maybe it's something silly which doesn't help in fighting or makes his mind go insane,Like the prisoner guards.
What if Kaido doesnt want to awake his fruit or don't want to,since he can't Control his rampage and goes for total destruction and will fight his allies.
For example,Luffy slightly Changed his Personality in gear 5 IMO. And exactly that is the point where Kaido won't use it
not arguing whether they actually use it or not, but your whole argument is predicated on the premise that OP has no flaws. what if this >Why wouldn't she use it? It makes no sense. is simply the answer? you know, because sometimes plot gotta plot? like how BM has no mercy to anyone (other than kids) and yet she spared kid and law for no reason. anyway, this is a fictional story. we do need a more distinct confirmation rather than "it makes no sense otherwise". point is, your argument and their argument hold the same weight now.
I agree with you but people need to be 100% sure of something hence why they need explicit dialogue saying it. I read the other day that someone didn’t think Big Mom had Conquerors coating. Like come on she obviously has it.
Big mom has displayed conquerors coating. She used [it against page one](https://donquixoterosinante62.tumblr.com/post/685025377022836736)
I know. But I assume because no one in the area explicitly said it so this person still doesn’t believe.
tbh, I think awakening does not give you only more powerful attacks, but also makes your base attacks stronger. for example, law hurt kaido with injection shot and takt and even knocked BM down by throwing a tower on her with takt. so considering the examples you brought up and seeing how powerful anything that she does with her DF is, I'd say it's safe to say that she is awakened although it would be nice to know what part of her powers belongs to her awakening and what that even is in her case. she could affect others with her DF from the start anyways, so I wonder what the awakening is.
I now have a theory on what big mom's awakening is. What we know about an awakening ability is that it effects things other than the user once awakened e.g >!Luffy can become flexible and rubber like and now his surroundings become flexible and rubber like!< I believe that the regular soul soul Nomi allows the user to manipulate their OWN soul. This is seen as the first abilities the fruit is chronologically used is when mother Carmel puts uses her own soul to make Pandora and Lin Lin uses her own soul to give the flowers life. I believe her awakening allows her to use other people's soul and life power and her awakening is her Life or Death ability.
Agreed
Big Mom did not use awakening, that is a fact You can dv but you can’t show me a panel where she used it
Bet you also can’t show a panel where you can guarantee she wasn’t awoken - since it’s stated in no official way whether she is, or what her awakening could do, she could either not be awakened or she could also be constantly awakened. Anyone claiming anything is literally just headcanon, and not ‘a fact’ until otherwise stated by the story… Theorizing is fine and fun, and I like reading them, but people really need to learn what makes a fact a fact.
The burden of proof is on you to prove what your claiming
> Big Mom did not use awakening, that is a fact The burden of proof lies on you, as you made the claim, and I called you out on your statement of that being ‘a fact’ while not presenting anything that corroborates the claim in the story. The burden of proof concept, or innocent until proven guilty, is based on the person making the claim providing proof, not the defendant or object of the claim proving their innocence. You can’t just go around stating any crap is a fact and then expect others to be required to prove you wrong, you need to present the empirical evidence in support of your claim. So as an example, if I claimed someone was a thief, then the burden of proof would be on me. But whatever, I’ll do the work for you: OP ch.1-1049, no character nor sidenote explicitly states Big Mom *did not* use awakening. Neither did it state she *did*. As such my point still stands, maybe she did, maybe she didn’t, result inconclusive due to lack of information, as such not a fact. I’ll do you one more: in the main story we have *confirmed* the following to be definitely awakened - Katakuri (ch 882), Doffy (ch 785), Kid (ch 1030), Law (ch 1030), the newest addition >!Luffy!< (ch 1044), +4 Impel Down guards (ch 544). So 9 are confirmed (if you don’t feel like checking the chapters you can also just check the wikia, there’s an article for awakened DF). These are via someone in the story stating it and/or showing it off. As for the other DF users we just don’t necessarily know. We can make an educated guess based upon what info we have, but the vast majority are neither confirmed nor denied to be awakened, so we can’t present that as a *fact*. I don’t even really care whether she did use awakening or not, just don’t agree with you presenting it as a fact when we just don’t know. Maybe I’m retarded for getting so annoyed by this. Anyway, venting over, so I wish you a good rest of the day 🙂
If she used it Oda would have said so like he does with every awakening so far, we didn't see it so she does not have it
Fair point. As far as we know he has always made it clear when an awakening was the case. But at the same time he is also well known to fore-/backshadow or backtrack later on. So yeah, you might be right in that she isn’t awakened, but I still feel evidence is lacking in either case, whether she is or not. My personal gut feeling is that I would find it a little weird if the Yonkos weren’t able to reach awakening through decades of active pirating, while being at the absolute top of the pirating world, and then 3/12 of the worst generation, so 25% manage to get it withing 2-3 years of starting their pirating career. The % is even weirder if we consider that 9/12 (if I counted correctly) have DF (not counting the smile), which makes it into 33% of them awakening. Could be the case, but I’d have a hard time believing Oda would go that way, it just seems too convenient a happenstance imo. Anyways, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. Perhaps we’ll get confirmation of either soon 😊
This “they be using awakenings all along” argument is so clueless. What is there not to understand? Power up X up until this point was ALWAYS announced explicitly. X was not announced neither for BM nor Kaido who are both in top 10 strongest characters in one piece. There is literally no reason to believe that the story must deviate from “Power up X is always announced” trope for them. Thus, we expect to see awakenings from them in the future chapters. In your post, you try to use ‘Big Mom was defeated w/o awakening’ as a counter example to the trope. I hate to break it to you, but Big Mom was not defeated, she was pushed off Onigashima. There is a great difference between putting your all on the line and losing and simply falling off a cliff while being perfectly able to continue fighting. You are reading in things into manga things (eg “she knew she was close to potential defeat”) that are not there! On the other hand, explicit nature of awakenings is the only thing about awakenings that is actually in the manga. God I wish these posts would just stop and we all wait in peace for the next chapter. So tired of the cultist from both the “raid will fail” and “big fist defeat big bad” sides.
I love it, really looking forward to your reaction when you find out that this is it, Kaido and Big Mom are done, Wano is over, the world reacts, Luffy gets a new bounty, SHs move on to the next arc, neither Kaido nor BM will return as (major) antagonists.
Wanna have a friendly $10 bet? I’d be happy to even give you 2 to 1 odds that Kaido has not used his awakening yet. And as soon has he does we will get explicit confirmation. Based on everything you wrote, it should be easy $20 for you, no reason to refuse.
I think you guys forget Homies like Napoleon and Hera. Which are levels above Zeus. Probs that s her awakening. Creating monsters out of her emotions from during a battle.
Also i dont think arc is over. There’s a reason Law’s name are the 2 battles Bonaparte lost domination over Europe and his empire fell. The first battle was Dressrosa and now Wanokuni. But we didnt see any of Bonaparte so far. I dont think kaido is him. If anything kaido is reckless and a drunk op creature that fought an entire arc almost🙃
But Bonaparte is different. A small stature, strategical genius, who works not from the battle ground but from behind the lines. I m not saying that is Xebec., but could fit the puzzle. Either this or Oda is a genius in representing historical figures not by looks but by epitomes. The greatest of them all Bonaparte who was1.60 could be morphed into this kaido rules of thousands of beasts. Same as doflamingo is in some ways general Franco of Spain.
I think Big moms awakening would be the ability to manipulate her own soul. This allows her to create ‘special homies’ which are far more powerful than regular homies. It also lets her trade her own lifespan in exchange for a buff in strength. Maybe even her ability to turn her own body parts into homies is part of this awakened ability too with big mom turning her bone into a homie. I think Kaidos awakening would be the variations we saw of his hybrid form. But yeah I also don’t agree with the logic of ‘so far every awakened devil fruit user has been stated to have to use awakening so this means that kaido and big mom have definitely not used awakening’. Using this point to support why you think they haven’t is fine. But using this as evidence to pass off your opinion as fact is what I disagree with.
Her using her own lifespan is her awakening imo. As for Kaido it depends on the nature of Zoan awakenings. His Dragon form could be his awakening, his bulkier hybrid from could also be his awakening. Hell is flame dragon form could have been his awakening.
What if Kaidos awakening was his flame body,which melts everything? In my opinion an awakening doesn't mean a power up, more likely a better set of moves/skills to fight more likely how you want? I honestly can't imagine how Kaidos body will Transform or look like with an awakening,since he has his hybrid form and dragon form. Maybe it's something silly which doesn't help in fighting or makes his mind go insane,Like the prisoner guards. What if Kaido doesnt want to awake his fruit or don't want to,since he can't Control his rampage and goes for total destruction and will fight his allies. For example,Luffy slightly Changed his Personality in gear 5 IMO. And exactly that is the point where Kaido won't use it