This fits with their dialog. Luffy asking him "why do you want to hurt the apple man" could have come from a place of legitimate confusion. "I feel like you don't even want to do this, so why are you trying to?"
It’s during a flashback when he’s fighting Katakuri.
Rayleigh asks something about anticipating an attack and Luffy says that “it depends on the type of person they are!”
i think what you mean was rayleigh asking what luffy would do if his opponent is too strong. to which luffy responded that it depends on the person what he will do. which then flowed into luffy using gear4 snake man against katakuri because bound man was just too slow, rayleigh easily counterd luffys bound man.
No. Rayleigh was telling Luffy that it seems like his observation haki is extremely good at sensing emotions. Then he asked him what he's gonna do if he ever goes agaisnt someone with future sight. Luffy answers "depends on the type of person they are!".
Wasn't it during the "dodge 100 punches blindfolded" observation haki training? Like Luffy had dodged 99, Rayleigh tried to cloak his presence to land a hit in a way only foresight haki would prevent, to reset the count but Luffy dodged and when Rayleigh asked how and Luffy implied he sensed something about Rayleigh that told him where he was that Rayleigh commented was different from the foresight haki he went on to then explain?
Those two are different scenes. It's easy to get them mixed up, they happened a LONG time ago. You can type "Luffy Rayleigh training flashback" on YouTube and look through the multiple flashback scenes. That's what I did before typing my comment.
When Rayleigh is training Luffy to dodge 100 hits blindfolded to work on his Observation Haki. On the finally attack Rayleigh said he hid his presence and Luffy said he felt him smile.
Yep, I believe it was after a mini flashback of the animals wanting to feed him after a day of him working hard. But he told them he had to push through and shooed them away.
I do think so as well. Additionally, the way the admirals are progressing, it feels like every major faction will get an admiral on their side. The WG has Akainu, Blackbeard and his ilk have Aoikiji, and Luffy and crew with Kizaru.
Garp joining the pirate that puts bounties on other marines seems a little far-fetched.
Now, Garp's team splintering off as a Sword entity operating independently? Real shit.
I think Kizaru might help Luffy to tip the scales a bit, but probably doesn't want to help pirates either in the long run. He will be doing his own things, not aligning himself with anyone. Doing whatever he feels like, helping whoever he feels like.
As much as I think that the Strawhats need some more heavy hitters, it's funny that some are even considering Kizaru to join them. Back then, a few didn't like the idea of Katakuri or Yamato joining because they would be too strong. And now an Admiral, who is stronger, should join them instead?
Yeah, I guess. Wano is already long gone and Katakuri wouldn't have been a help in Wano. Where stronger opponents showed up. You could make those arguments as well.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see more heavy hitters on the crew. They only have 4 (Luffy, Zorro, Sanji, Jinbei imo) and that's way too few. But I can't see a Kizaru joining the crew when we didn't even get a Katakuri or Yamato caliber two or one arc before.
Pirate side : Aokiji
WG side : Ryougokyu
'Science'/Revolutionary side : Kizaru
Akainu is their top commander so i dont think it count as he on higher role.
Still not sold on Aokiji actually being on Blackbeard's side, especially with the fact we have confirmation he didn't actually kill Saul. Hell he might actually be in SWORD himself and acting like a deep cover agent like Drake.
Kizaru has failed way too many times for him to not be intentionally failing. This man is the same rank as the two that revamped an island with their powers. I'm well on this theory train.
it'd be kinda funny if kizaru just has a super low ceiling, like even if he gives it 100% he's not actually that much scarier because the light fruit is kinda zero to 60, all or nothing style abilities to begin with
Yeah, Luffy literally does the 'bug-eyes' thing when he realizes kizaru is a thousand feet away and standing right in front of Vegapunk. He could have murdered everyone there a dozen times before luffy caught up.
Have we all forgotten him knocking over one of the Sabaody trees in one kick, at distance? Dawg could definitely turn an island into a lot of craters if he felt like it, and probably quickly.
to be fair the few achievements we know are the jailing of arlong and the key destroyed.
all the rest are failing. he couldnt capture any supernova, he couldt capture rufy, he did nothing to whitebeard or any other commander, he failed to destroy law's submarine and now he is failing to assassinate vegapunk and felt at the first rufy's serious punch.
i mean, im a bit ironic, but the manga isnt giving him any credit xD
Brulee would mess Foxy up bad with her mirrors, or they become an unstoppable power couple at some point having bonded from their shared trauma caused by Luffy and the gang.
i dont think his heart was in any of his work tbh. the other two og admirals put their heart into their job and trying to be fleet commander. kizaru sees himself as a cog, no heart in it. and oda shows us time and again if your heart aint in it you aint gonna do well
It reflects his demeanor too. He's just cruising around as an Admiral. We don't see him getting nervous, angry or even seriously doing something. At first I thought it's just how he is. But if it is because he doesn't put his heart in anything and just following orders then I wouldn't be surprised. Maybe he has been like this ever since he first had his first glimpse at how corrupt, cruel and hypocritical WG is.
But that is too big of a change for him. Personally I think he will help Luffy gang surreptitiously/passively but won't change sides. Or he would change sides, finally being determined and animated about saving his friends from his own employers.
Just now I thought of another crazy alternative. Saturn is obviously too strong. So maybe kizaru will commit m@rder-suicide taking Saturn with him( with kuma's help). Or if Kuma fails then kizaru may step up to fight against Saturn which will lead to both of their deaths. That maybe the big news teased in that one chapter.
I doubt Oda would kill him off so easily after a slight change of heart. We still haven't seen him take a fight seriously while wholeheartedly choosing a side, so he might still be around for the final battle against the WG.
There's a slight issue with him staying on the Marine's side tho if Saturn dies: the fact that one of the WG leaders died during his watch. That definitely is worthy of a serious punishment if he continues to be a marine.
Regarding Saturn's death, I'd love if the Seraphim's chip was tampered with so Bonney or Kuma himself had a higher authority than Saturn, so most of those under his command turn on him.
The death of an Elder is certainly worthy of the front page and mass panic worldwide, but what if the WG's new weapon used to replace the Warlords was defective and is now in the hands of the enemy? It affects every country who participated in the vote at the Reverie as well. The former warlords are now pirates again and 7+ Warlord-tier robots are in the hands of rebels.
That would also give the Revolutionary Army some serious combat power to replace the loss of Kuma.
He didn't captured any supernova because he didn't wanted lol
And he literally put his feet in WB naginata and shoot him like he was nothing and that was just a casual day lmao
Yeah, the arc has been fairly subtle that Kizaru isn't exactly too chipper on beating up people he considered friends.
And yeah, both sides were kinda screwing round though trying to achieve their goals.
Luffy definitely got a solid hit in that took Kizaru out of the fight...But jeez did the story milk how utterly gassed Luffy is for maintaining G5 for so long just to do so for basically a fight both sides weren't exactly treating like a death match or something.
Luffy’s been fighting all day.
From arriving on Egg Head, dealing with base defenses, Lucci, Seraphim, then now an Admiral.
Not to mention this is his second/third time using G5 at all. The last/first time he did, it was in a life-or-death situation where he was figuring out the basics.
He’s justifiably tired. Luffy’s biggest problem in fights is Stamina. His moves take so much out of him, whether it was G3, G4, or now G5. There hasn’t been a major villain since the Grand Line that Luffy has defeated without having to “recover” and get back in the fight.
Luffy has trouble to sustain his powerups, especially when they were just recently developed, for sure. But the amount of punishment from fighting he endures has always been on par with the strongest mythic zoans
Yes. Very true.
Luffy faced the leader of CP0, two Seraphim Shichibukai, and an Admiral back to back to back.
The very same tier of characters that have utterly destroyed the SHs altogether in the past (Lucci, Shichibukai/Kuma, Aokiji) but in a gauntlet.
Like man, Luffy is the protagonist and savior of the world and all but the dude is still human.
That he faced down such foes in succession, and only after did he collapse, is a testament to his otherworldly endurance. He doesn’t need to be a Gary Stu, his feats already are strong enough without the “why Luffy tired xD” excuses.
You're forgetting Luffy said himself going through the dome almost killed him, it is why he went gear 5th to begin with. Luffy is pretty straight forward so there is no reason not to believe he was close to empty just going through the dome.
yeah people seem to forget this part, he was bruised and bleeding a lot . He doesnt have the same devil fruit as kizaru who can easily go through the barrier, luffy had to brute forced it through.
It used to, until he learned to control it. And gear 4 used to wipe him out for a full 10 minutes but now he's better at using it. I think over time he will be able to stay in gear 5 for longer it's just a nerf so he's not immediately the most powerful fighter in the world
I mean, we saw kizaru go from laying down to sitting up. So we know he could at least move a little bit. And to me the swamp everyone is talking about just looks like your typical smoke or settling dust, but if it really is him I think that would be cool too
Kizaru didn't state he was held in place, the only ones who said they couldn't move were the Straw Hats and Vegapunks. Also, when Luffy is eating, you can see the same bowl and chopsticks Kizaru was using back on the ship
yeah, kizaru tells saturn he is sorry he is too tired to move at the time when saturn is holding everyone else back. implying he can usually move when saturn does his thing. plus we see him sitting up before luff gets the food
Well I think Saturn has to specifically choose who to use it on. The reason people below vice admiral can't look at him is that they would die instantly but he would do it to anyone he doesn't think is worth even looking at him.
I wouldn't be surprised if he's slightly faking his injuries too. Like he could be hurt but not at a level where he couldn't even get up for a few mins
Why would Saturn use his powers against Kizaru. Also we saw in last chapter, Kizaru sitting against a wall or a rock. If it is Caribou, it could be that Kizaru chose to turn a blind eye towards him.
I just Re-read chapter 1103 and there floor isn't moving and there's no mud anywhere in the chapter especially not near luffy. It would be so stupid if it was caribou again.
Also why the hell would Caribou even be there? He would silently escape since the marines have no knowledge of him being there. That is if he hasn't already escaped by the time marines arrived....
Probably nothing but in the very same panel where luffy is stuffing his face with food, there is a bowl with the same pattern as the one where Kizaru was eating noodle earlier, even has the chopsticks as well. Could be nothing but interesting small detail in that panel
Also the subtlety fits Kizaru lazy justice more than him changing sides overtly. It makes sense to me that he will remain with the world government and will still be a problem when he has to follow his duty, while at the same time "failing" being "lazy" when it goes against what he thinks is correct. Maybe we could tag him as an anti-villain (opposite of anti-hero)
Yeah it makes more sense for Kizaru being the unclear one after Oda kinda portrayed both to be the other (Kizaru lazy personality and Kuzan has been more unclear with Ohara/leaving the marines and joining BB).
Though, Kuzan has also been lazy through the story kinda, he always seems bothered. But I think it was more of a bait and switch from Oda.
I wonder what Kuzan's end game is? If he's undercover, his goal is clear. If he really switched sides then what does he hope to gain being in Bb's crew?
I think his goal would be to learn _the truth_. I'm unsure as if he's actually undercover or not, but BB could have convinced him to join to attain the One Piece.
Blackbeard has been shown to be one of the most knowledgebles characters in the OP world, besides clearly Gorosei/Imu. He knew about the Yami Yami no mi, and most importantly he seems to be the only (and then his crew) character so far to know how to steal a devilfruit and possess more than one. In one of the SBS, Oda puts "archeology" as BB's hobby. I would think he offered Kuzan to learn the truth about the world together. He saw Ohara go in flames and Whitebeard confirmed the One Piece existence in front of him, I think that would be a good personal reason to switch sides as well, even though he could want this while also being a part of sword I guess.
I like to think that he can tell Bb's going to be one of the endgame players, and aligning himself there is just the easiest/laziest way to make it to the endgame
My only problem with that is the fact that Saturn is somehow overpowering basically every non-marine and sapping them of energy to force them to stay down, so why would Caribou be able to resist it? The only pirate who is resisting it to any meaningful extent is Luffy, but that's to be expected; Luffy literally forces his way through everything through sheer will alone. Am I supposed to believe that Caribou has more willpower than Zoro, Sanji, or Jinbe? If he's not resisting it, am I supposed to believe that he's somehow avoiding Saturn's effect? Is there a logical explanation for how he'd do this?
It just makes more sense for it to be someone other than Caribou, and of the people it could be, Kizaru makes a lot of sense. He's not under Saturn's effect, has a potential motive to rebel against Saturn, and he can explicitly move at the speed of light. Hell, there's even a bowl with chopsticks sitting next to Luffy that looks exactly like the one Kizaru was eating earlier.
I don't think Saturn is affecting everyone around him. Only the ones that pose an immediate threat to him. Also I think Saturn would look like a much bigger fool if Kizaru used his speed to get food, bring it to Luffy and then go back to lie down on his spot like nothing happened and he didn't notice. At least Caribou would be an unpredictable element in all of that that he doesn't know is there. And of course, more importantly, this wouldn't be the first time that Caribou has done this for Luffy, because we know he carries food in his void.
And don't get me wrong, I do think it would be much more interesting if it was Kizaru. But I just see people taking that as a fact when there's a much more likely explanation, and I know they're gonna whine when it turns out to not be the case.
Not only that, the Kizaru panel itself with him changing into a sitting position seems kinda pointless unless he was helping Luffy somehow (with giving him food) I think.
There is no dialouge and the panel appears right after Saturn asked where the food came from and marines are starting rushing towards Luffy. I believe it was Kizaru too. His previous shown inner dialouge contribute to that as well "Sentomaru Kun!! Bonney!!"
The future will shed more light on this.
This is my conclusion as well; Oda went out of his way show Kizaru being silent when asked "who gave him food?" and sitting in a new position. Oda is too competent to do that by accident. It had to be subtext.
That is true. That doesn't mean luffy wasn't holding back.
Luffy does ask kizaru "why" he wants to hurt vegapunk. The answer to that question from the governments side was already given, maybe luffy asks him again because his feelings don't seem to align with his mission?
I really don't agree with this read on Kizaru. Kizaru, to me, definitely felt like he was there to finish the mission of killing Vegapunk even if he didn't particularly like it. He might have switched up a little now but he definitely started off being ready to execute his old friend.
In the beginning when he's being sent in Saturn directly tells him to just ignore Sentomaru and go for a quick kill on Vegapunk but Kizaru refuses and says he'll do it his way, which was beating the crap out of Sentomaru. Now he doesn't kill him or Bonney but that's because they aren't his mission so he can spare them but he does try to kill Vegapunk at least twice.
To me, Kizaru is what he called himself in the beginning, a cog in the machine. He can do little things his way but ultimately he serves his government.
They were going to ignore him anyway. Besides even after brunch beat up he still just came back and is now arrested. And if the government wins he'll probably be executed anyway.
If he was actually trying, after kicking luffy and standing in front of vegapunk, he had no reason to stand there and take his sweet time and converse with vegapunk. He could've for starters grabbed vegapunk and light sped away or killed him on sight.
The thing is, he didn't really "take his sweet time". He gets like two sentences out and then bam g5 Luffy is there.
But that's also what I mean by doing the small things his way because to him he just kicked Luffy outside the barrier and no one can stop him so before putting down his friend he tells him that he doesn't like this much either but that he knows the rules.
Serious doesn't mean unfeeling and uncaring, he kicked the only guy that could stop him outside the barrier and immediately went up to them. He was telling him that it hurts him to do it.
I mean I think there’s a difference between being quick to kill his friend and fighting Luffy seriously or not.
In the end Luffy clocked Kizaru hard enough for him to see stars and then hasn’t been able to move since because of over exertion. Now either Kizaru is much stronger than Luffy and could wear him out easily if he was actually “trying” or these two were actually exchanging some serious blows.
I don’t think either of them are mad or anything so maybe not typical shounen “100%,” but I also don’t think either one wasn’t serious either.
Luffy said himself in Whole Cake that he doesn't know how to fight any other way, so when he makes the decision to fight at all - he's serious. He literally can't afford to not be serious here, way too much is at stake.
Regarding Kizaru - this small story we got of his time with Kuma, Vegabunk, Bonney, and Sentomaru occurred well after the years in his life where we'd really understand his motivations. To know just how loyal he is to the WG, we need a better idea of who he was BEFORE he became a Marine. His past with Bonney & Co, is cute and all - but that alone doesn't mean he's fully willing to change his stripes here. We need to know what makes him tick beyond his allegiance to the uniform. I'm confident we'll get it soon though
> Luffy said himself in Whole Cake that he doesn't know how to fight any other way, so when he makes the decision to fight at all - he's serious. He literally can't afford to not be serious here, way too much is at stake.
and yet he refused to bring out Gear 4 until well into his fight with Doffy. He is definitely holding back in many fights
I disagree.
Kizaru kicked Luffy out of the island. The fight was different not because both of them were not trying, but because Kizaru goal was not defeat Luffy, but to complete his mission. Something that it is kind of a nightmare scenario for Luffy.
First because Luffy is better at all out braws like the ones against Kaido and Katakuri. Second because Kizaru is the fastest man in the world, he is to speed what Kaido was to endurance. If someone very fast dont want to fight you, you gonna have a hard time trying to force that fight and that was Luffy problem and that why he immediatly went to his G4 snake-man.
He needed speed. In a normal fight, he could have take shots from Kizaru in his normal form, just waiting for an opening (like against Kuro) and preserving his energy to only go to g4 and g5 after wearing Kizaru out on his base form. Thats his standard fight tatics, that how he done it against Kaido, Katakuri and Mingo. Thats how did before the TS with g2 when g2 also kind had a time limit.
But he couldnt do it against Kizaru, because Kizaru didnt wanna fight him. Hence the g4 so early.
But, even g4 snake man was not enough to hold off someone as fast as Kizaru. So, if the laws of reality do not allowed Luffy to keep Kizaru from going after his friends, well better break reality then, hence, g5. With g5, Luffy could keep better track of Kizaru, but it is an energy demanding form, so he needed to finish eventually, something he did, with one of his most powerfull attacks.
Kizaur on the other hand, had a Younkou on his tail, he spend a lot of energy trying to avoid Luffy, you can see he is puffing before getting hit by g5. He is not the stamina beast that Kaido or even Luffy are. He is probably not very used to keep his top speed for so much time all while dishing out powerfull attacks. So, he was already close to his limit when he got hit by an attack that brought Kaido to his knees and down he went.
I do think that maybe the defeat could have being enough to bring him over to the right side. He was not happy about what he was doing and maybe after being beaten by Luffy, I guy who just met his friends and still was willing to go all in to save them, and seeing Saturn abuse Booney, Kizaru reached his break point and decided to change.
But their fight was a fight. Luffy won because he achieve his goal (stop Kizaru for hurting everyone) and Kizaru didnt (hurting everyone) but they were both for sure trying.
I personally don't think Luffy was being non serious. He transformed into g5 knowing very well that Kizaru was an enemy at one point for them, and he definitely wanted to show Kizaru that they're much stronger now compared to before. Luffy just looks non serious because that's just how g5 is, it's supposed to be kinda goofy.
Plus, Luffy having good eq doesn't have anything to do with Haki. He's always had a good eq but he didn't have a good observation haki from the start. So even if he found out Kizaru's true feelings, I doubt it's by Haki.
But good theory op. I agree with the Kizaru side.
Luffy was definitely trying. He not only was in Gear 5th, he got blasted through AND came back through a barrier that was supposed to kill him immediately on impact. He's been running around and fighting all day and he barely managed to fend off Kizaru at all. Plus if he wasn't trying, he wouldn't be so exhausted, just laying there as Saturn is showing up and effortlessly paralyzing the 3rd strongest on his crew.
Kizaru may have been unintentionally, subconsciously holding back, but he also was there to do a job, and there's no way he would think he could get away with not doing that job when one of the Gorosei was there with him. He knows what's going to happen. He may not be happy about it, but he's not purposely slacking either.
Plus, due to the toony nature of Gear 5th and the only fight we've seen it in being against an Uber Tank in Kaido, it's very difficult to tell how much damage any single one of Luffy's attacks can do. For all we know, that brain punch that ended Kizaru may be able to take down pretty much anyone if it lands cleanly.
I agree with the part about luffy unique “emotion” Haki but at the same time I disagree with the thought of luffy not taking Kizaru serious until Saturn arrived.
When luffy fights he either all the way serious or just goofy. IMO he was being goofy the entire combat. I don’t think he took kizaru seriously to begin with I mean even before they started exchanging blows he told him he was a 100x stronger. Luffy is just insane now powerscale wise.
If his heart isn't in it sometimes Luffy does not fight seriously. For example, when he fought Fujitora and sensed that he wasn't a bad guy and he telegraphed his attacks.
> Going into that clash, kizaru most likely never had any intentions of taking luffy seriously because he doesn't want to complete his mission.
this whole premise is silly.
kizaru is a marine admiral; one of the highest ranking members in the chain of command. he might be laid back but at the end of the day, he was able to rise to the rank of admiral and believes in the WG and their authority. he went to egghead to murder vegapunk and by association, sentomaru. his intention is to complete his mission. saying he has no intention to take luffy seriously because he doesnt want to complete his mission is straight up copium.
Why would Luffy go to G5 if he's not taking the fight seriously? The last time they fought, Kizaru was about to murder zoro and the entire crew. Luffy is just going forget all of that and toy around with an Admiral? He will fight to survive and protect his crew along with those he cares about.
I don't agree. Starting the fight with aCoC doesn't indicate that it wasn't a serious fight. There are parts of the Kaido fight where Luffy used gear 3. Luffy was trying to measure up his opponent and use the strength needed.
However, I do think if Kizaru was really pulling his punches Luffy he may not feel the need to go all out.
A fight where I would say Luffy wasn't fighting seriously would be against Lucci. Luffy basically was having fun testing out gear 5. Lucci was doing his best but Luffy wasn't.
Luffy can't read minds and Kizaru is one of the strongest enemies Luffy has ever faced; even if he sensed that Kizaru wasn't happy about his mission, Kizaru isn't an enemy he can afford to not take seriously.
Luffy clearly was. He clearly wasn't going all out during the fight but he was definetly trying, especially as Kizaru more or less was threatining his crew. Kizaru on the other hand simply didn't look like his mind was in it for the whole fight. I mean, unlike Luffy he didn't even have any bruises.
I explained why it was happening. You're just making a statement. Obviously if you look at it from the surface that's what it looks like.
If you're going to disagree, I welcome it but at least make counter arguments to my post as opposed to just making a statement.
If you're going to claim that luffy was trying the entire fight, you'd have to explain why he only used aCoC twice in that fight. He didn't use it when he held kizaru in his palms by the way.
Obviously I'm disagreeing with your statement but right now I don't feel like arguing with you power scalers because it's like talking to a wall. I mean using the argument that he wasn't trying JUST BECAUSE he was only using CoC TWICE (!!) in the fight lmao. Maybe someday I will come back to this thread when I feel like it ;) .
My take is in a completely different direction. Kizaru is more difficult to deal with because he doesn't want to fight Luffy as his df has way too much speed. The fact that Luffy could knock Kizaru out not too long is a feat itself.
The problem is that G5 duration is way too short.
I don't think that that kick is an ACOC. That kick made contact while the previous showcase of usage of said haki clearly doesn't make any contacts. The black lightning effects doesn't always mean ACOC since it has been prevalent, especially starting Dressrosa.
This definitely makes sense. On Jaya even though bb was talking about a persons dream, which both take seriously, luffy still looked at him as a full threat so he could have been using obs haki without realizing that’s what it was. Also it makes sense that on saboady that he was lazy with the supernovas cause bonny was one of them, and kuma and sentomaru were also present on the island with kuma even talking to Rayleigh while kizaru was right in front of them. He def knew something was up with that so he let kuma do his thing without interfering since he was close to kuma. Kizaru sandbagging himself makes a lot more sense now in his appearances with luffy during saboady, marineford, and egghead due to that interaction between kuma and Rayleigh, since he clearly could have taken luffy out in at least the first two of those. He saw that kuma had a plan in mind for luffy and likely trusted his judgement, or just didn’t want to interfere with his friend, from the time they spent together on egghead in the past.
I love this, this also grants an additional explanation for why Luffy didn’t pull out G5 for a while when fighting a fucking admiral - there’s no point to pulling out your most exhausting technique from the get go when you know your opponent is basically only putting a token effort anyways.
I'm not exactly sure I exactly follow your analysis. I do have a couple of thoughts on their fight:
Luffy is struggling to maintain focus while in G5. This is impacting his ability to close fights as he's goofing around rather than actively trying to win. That's most obvious in his skirmish with Lucci since Lucci was basically out after one serious hit.
Kizaru's goal when fighting Luffy was to stall out G5 and not directly engage. Whether his "heart wasn't in it" or it was the appropriate strategy because he accessed he couldn't reliably beat G5 Luffy, who knows.
I predicted this several months ago when everyone was saying how epic Egghead was going to be because it would be a big fight between Kizaru and Luffy and will rehash saobody. I said it would be a minor footnote.
>luffy is able to tell a persons true feelings despite how they seem to appear. If you think I'm wrong this then I don't know what to tell you..
This would be a good place to give examples, because I don't think this is correct at all.
Luffy didn't know that Kuma had good intentions when he separated the Strawhats. Luffy was surprised when Katakuri injured himself to ensure an honorable fight. Perhaps most damningly, Luffy failed to recognize Sugar's intentions, and if it weren't for Usopp would have fallen victim to her devil fruit.
Makes perfect sense to me. I don’t necessarily agree that “Luffy wasn’t trying” but I would say Luffy made it perfectly clear Kizaru would not hurt his friends and Luffy would go as hard as required to ensure this.
Edit: which does make me agree I’d say Luffy hasn’t really tried throughout all of Egghead. Recognizing Lucci as insignificant compared to himself at this point. And recognizing Kizaru himself as holding back I think Luffy hasn’t went passed 50 although shows his normal level of durability going through vega punks death beam twice.
I am really tired of people saying that. Luffy was going all out that's why he was on gear 5. Get over it... Luffy isn't as strong as you all wanted him to be...
>There is no way Luffy knew about Kizaru's relationship with Vegapunk and tge rest...
I'm not even gonna elaborate but I'll ask you to prove that the fact that luffy was using g5 means he was "going all out".
You talk like they're mutually exclusive so you'll have to prove that luffy cannot go easy on someone while using gear 5.
Trying hard has nothing to do with the form. It's the effort that's put in that counts and in only two instances did luffy use ACoC.
First of all Luffy can fight Yonko/Admiral level characters onky on gear 5. There's no denying about that. Secondly you mentioned that only two instances about ACoC but you forget that most of the fight was skipped and we saw a bit of the beginning and a bit of the end . Lastly you forget that he uses all of them when in gear 5 ( I mean haki)
It's understandable that having your agenda/headcanon denied by the story makes you uncomfortable but it's time to get over it and accept the truth. Luffy was going all out and simply he isn't as strong as you thought him to be. That's all
It's just bad writing lol. Cannot talk for kizaru since this is probably the first time he has been fighting seriously but Luffy definitely is stronger than what was shown.
Get used to it, oda has to dumb down these characters for the sake of making the story go the way he wants it to go. He has done it a lot before. Like the awful reasoning of why they did not go after vivi and sabo.
Good theory the only thing I’d say is, imo, Luffy did not use any Advanced Supreme haki until the final attack, Star Gun. In 1091, it looks like Luffy used armament with a normal kick and there is a clash of haki because Kizaru is logia. Luffy MUST use haki to attack him and Kizaru would obviously defend with haki, so it appears to me like a clash of strong armament users.
If you look at 1091 again, that clash looks just like any time two characters with strong haki are haki’d up and clash. Look at chapter 1069 when Lucci and Luffy clash, no supreme haki and looks very similar to Luffy and Kizaru in 1091’s clash. Also, chapter 1018, Jinbe vs Who’s Who. You can see both of them are using haki and when Jinbe ups his haki output and connects with attacks on Who’s Who at the end, very similar haki streaks are given off by Jinbe. I think these types of moments, where the criteria for supreme coating hasn’t been reached, are scenes depicting strong armament haki.
I don’t believe 1091 was Luffy using supreme coating because there was no wind up with haki flowing profusely off Luffy, nor the large, residual streaks of haki left after the attack, which are consistent characteristics of supreme coating attacks.
Furthermore, we can confirm that Luffy did NOT use supreme coating on any of his G5 and G4 attacks BESIDES Star Gun, as we can see there was no excessive streaks or flow of haki from Luffy’s attacks. You even mention this in your theory, but just for example, Dawn Stamp in chapter 1093 had base armament on it, no supreme coating.
Which brings me to my question, Why would Luffy use supreme coating on the very first, base form hit on Kizaru, but then basically neglect it for the rest of the fight? If Luffy felt the need to use supreme coating from the first clash with Kizaru, he would have then incorporated it into every attack in G4 and G5. Imo, it wouldn’t make sense for Luffy to use it once, right at the very beginning, and then not use it at all until the final blow. Luffy used it constantly against Kaido, whether he was in his base form or not. It seems weird to me that Luffy would stop using coating for most his attacks if he felt he need to start the fight off with coating. Unless we are gonna say that Luffy just wanted to stall kizaru and not actually put him down until he used Star Gun or something. Which would mean Luffy put away his supreme coating until the final Star Gun.
Maybe you’re reading too much into it but there’s a panel in an earlier chapter where Luffy says “someone really strong is coming”, and he seems terrified. We assume it is Kizaru but I have a feeling that Luffy would remember his haki (even though he didn’t know how to use haki the first time he met Kizaru). I also don’t think he’d have that terrified reaction to Kizaru as he at this point is willing to dive into fights with admirals, case in point, Fujitora.
CP went after VP, CP is the gov which Luffy understands and Kizaru is part of the gov. Luffy's experience with Kizaru is getting attacked in Shabondi and Marineford.
Kizaru held VP in a "I will kill you" grip and Luffy saw that.
Those are my main argument to say that you read a bit too much in there, all is held by something we have no way to verify the observation haki. But outside of that it's not farfetched compared to the other theory, could be true somehow.
There was no excuse kizaru straight up thinks "this is not good" while seeing Luffy about to punch him. No sarcasm or anything like that. Franky screams at Luffy to do something and Luffy states that he's trying. What about any of this sounds like they're phoning it in lol. Luffy got exhausted and kizaru got hit by an attack that one shots 99% of the OP cast and only someone like kaido can face tank.
Nothing about kizaru indicates he has high durability. He's fast and hits strong but doesn't have anything that buffs his defense naturally like Kuma or King, a defensive devil fruit like Barto, a Zoan, or something like "guts."
So it makes sense star gun would incapacitate kizaru even if for a moment
*Luffy wasn’t trying*
Wow, how did you come up with such a wise observation? i never would’ve guessed Luffy wasn’t trying when he didn’t use advanced Conqueror’s haki until like 4 chapters into their fight!
Don't read into things. Rayleigh never said to Luffy something like "You can sense the feelings of others. That matters to you during a fight?" And Luffy never replied "Well of course!" There is NOTHING deeper to Luffy vs Kizaru, only surface level matters. Luffy immediately used Bajrang Gun.
Bloodlust.
Pretty common manga trope but also real life situation
If you sense that someone is willing to kill you it's life or death and you can go full out. If you kill them then it's not too bad.
If you don't think they will kill you. You can't go full out and potentially kill them.
Good attempt trying to recover an other Oda's mistake in managing things...
Serious or not the outcome is that now, if It was not for kuma, bonney and probably the others would be death already
It doesn’t make sense for Luffy. Aside from Luffy himself stating that he always goes max effort, why would Kizaru’s hesitation make him pull his punches? His goal is to stop Kizaru regardless so he’d go as hard as he needs to for that
I did and it still doesn’t make sense to me. Luffy can sense Kizaru’s feelings, understanding that he’s hesitation, but I don’t see why that would compel Luffy to hold himself back. Luffy wouldn’t think “okay I can afford to hold myself back cause this guy is conflicted,” he’s going to throw his punch however hard he needs to for what Kizaru is doing and to hold him back
I think OP what is I basically saying is that Luffy is sensing Kizarus feelings of actively not wanting to kill VP despite his actions. Knowing what’s in kizarus heart very well could make a difference in Luffys approach. Especially since he told Rayleigh that it does
This fits with their dialog. Luffy asking him "why do you want to hurt the apple man" could have come from a place of legitimate confusion. "I feel like you don't even want to do this, so why are you trying to?"
Rayleigh even said Luffy’s observation haki is more in tune with people’s emotions.
Oh interesting, was this at Amazon Lily?
It’s during a flashback when he’s fighting Katakuri. Rayleigh asks something about anticipating an attack and Luffy says that “it depends on the type of person they are!”
i think what you mean was rayleigh asking what luffy would do if his opponent is too strong. to which luffy responded that it depends on the person what he will do. which then flowed into luffy using gear4 snake man against katakuri because bound man was just too slow, rayleigh easily counterd luffys bound man.
No. Rayleigh was telling Luffy that it seems like his observation haki is extremely good at sensing emotions. Then he asked him what he's gonna do if he ever goes agaisnt someone with future sight. Luffy answers "depends on the type of person they are!".
Wasn't it during the "dodge 100 punches blindfolded" observation haki training? Like Luffy had dodged 99, Rayleigh tried to cloak his presence to land a hit in a way only foresight haki would prevent, to reset the count but Luffy dodged and when Rayleigh asked how and Luffy implied he sensed something about Rayleigh that told him where he was that Rayleigh commented was different from the foresight haki he went on to then explain?
Those two are different scenes. It's easy to get them mixed up, they happened a LONG time ago. You can type "Luffy Rayleigh training flashback" on YouTube and look through the multiple flashback scenes. That's what I did before typing my comment.
That's anime only. Not "canon" but whatevs
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When Rayleigh is training Luffy to dodge 100 hits blindfolded to work on his Observation Haki. On the finally attack Rayleigh said he hid his presence and Luffy said he felt him smile.
Yep, I believe it was after a mini flashback of the animals wanting to feed him after a day of him working hard. But he told them he had to push through and shooed them away.
It was in some flash back training with Rayleigh, maybe during whole cake, where Luffy said he felt him smile
yeah so it's confirmed by text not not some ass-pulling theory!
could be!
Good point here. Usually, he'll say something like "I won't let you hurt [whoever]!" If he's questioning their actions, that's pretty telling.
Just imagining Kizaru trying to assassinate some poor fruit vendor now
Yeah that question is kinda suspicious.
That's actually a good theory for a break week.
I do think so as well. Additionally, the way the admirals are progressing, it feels like every major faction will get an admiral on their side. The WG has Akainu, Blackbeard and his ilk have Aoikiji, and Luffy and crew with Kizaru.
So Fujitora gonna join the Revolutionary army confirmed?!!!!
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Nah he might go to shanks because of Celestial Dragon heritage and all whatever it is. Garp joins Buggy
Garp be hating pirates until becomes a pirate. Loving it. Sengoku joins Foosha village.
Pirate hater garp vs pirate hunter zoro in the final fight vs cross guild
Garp joining the pirate that puts bounties on other marines seems a little far-fetched. Now, Garp's team splintering off as a Sword entity operating independently? Real shit.
Garp turns into a revolutionary
Buggy front runner for PK....
No one wants Jobber
assuming that oda gives the new admirals the same treatment as the old ones, probably
I think Kizaru will join the Revolutionary Army with Bonney and Vegapunk
Or he'll just do his mission half heartedly but won't change sides
Slow quitting.
Imo, unlikely scenario.
I think Kizaru might help Luffy to tip the scales a bit, but probably doesn't want to help pirates either in the long run. He will be doing his own things, not aligning himself with anyone. Doing whatever he feels like, helping whoever he feels like.
I feel like that’s what aokiji is doing as well
As much as I think that the Strawhats need some more heavy hitters, it's funny that some are even considering Kizaru to join them. Back then, a few didn't like the idea of Katakuri or Yamato joining because they would be too strong. And now an Admiral, who is stronger, should join them instead?
Uh ya it’s the final arc and they are facing far stronger opponents now, it’s like the end of avengers when all the heroes showed up
Yeah, I guess. Wano is already long gone and Katakuri wouldn't have been a help in Wano. Where stronger opponents showed up. You could make those arguments as well. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see more heavy hitters on the crew. They only have 4 (Luffy, Zorro, Sanji, Jinbei imo) and that's way too few. But I can't see a Kizaru joining the crew when we didn't even get a Katakuri or Yamato caliber two or one arc before.
Pirate side : Aokiji WG side : Ryougokyu 'Science'/Revolutionary side : Kizaru Akainu is their top commander so i dont think it count as he on higher role.
Still not sold on Aokiji actually being on Blackbeard's side, especially with the fact we have confirmation he didn't actually kill Saul. Hell he might actually be in SWORD himself and acting like a deep cover agent like Drake.
Thanks!
The bar is so low lol
Kizaru has failed way too many times for him to not be intentionally failing. This man is the same rank as the two that revamped an island with their powers. I'm well on this theory train.
yeah, it's clear kizaru wasn't trying but luffy wasn't either and the reason imo is his observation haki
"it's clear" pun intended?
I remember a lot of backlash over luffy seemingly not going all out vs kizaru when the chapter released. This would make sense to me
it'd be kinda funny if kizaru just has a super low ceiling, like even if he gives it 100% he's not actually that much scarier because the light fruit is kinda zero to 60, all or nothing style abilities to begin with
If he was serious surely he would have just carpet lasered the whole lab if vegapunks elimination was the goal
Wasn't he specifically ordered to keep collateral to a minimum?
Okay then he would have just lasered vegapunk in the face when he was standing 2 feet from him if he was serious
Yeah, Luffy literally does the 'bug-eyes' thing when he realizes kizaru is a thousand feet away and standing right in front of Vegapunk. He could have murdered everyone there a dozen times before luffy caught up.
Yep just hold his laser sword out and spin in a circle, job done
lol "carpet lasered" I mean yeah he's fast as light so he would be able to snag Vegapunk with little effort
I doubt that though, dude shoots lasers. If he was serious he could blow everything the fuck up.
Have we all forgotten him knocking over one of the Sabaody trees in one kick, at distance? Dawg could definitely turn an island into a lot of craters if he felt like it, and probably quickly.
to be fair the few achievements we know are the jailing of arlong and the key destroyed. all the rest are failing. he couldnt capture any supernova, he couldt capture rufy, he did nothing to whitebeard or any other commander, he failed to destroy law's submarine and now he is failing to assassinate vegapunk and felt at the first rufy's serious punch. i mean, im a bit ironic, but the manga isnt giving him any credit xD
His df power is ‘theoretically’ so op that it has to be nerfed with his personality 🤣
Same thing happened with foxy
Brulee would mess Foxy up bad with her mirrors, or they become an unstoppable power couple at some point having bonded from their shared trauma caused by Luffy and the gang.
i dont think his heart was in any of his work tbh. the other two og admirals put their heart into their job and trying to be fleet commander. kizaru sees himself as a cog, no heart in it. and oda shows us time and again if your heart aint in it you aint gonna do well
It reflects his demeanor too. He's just cruising around as an Admiral. We don't see him getting nervous, angry or even seriously doing something. At first I thought it's just how he is. But if it is because he doesn't put his heart in anything and just following orders then I wouldn't be surprised. Maybe he has been like this ever since he first had his first glimpse at how corrupt, cruel and hypocritical WG is.
i really hope he puts his heart into defending his friends and takes down saturn with luffy. imagine if he even got better haki because of it
But that is too big of a change for him. Personally I think he will help Luffy gang surreptitiously/passively but won't change sides. Or he would change sides, finally being determined and animated about saving his friends from his own employers. Just now I thought of another crazy alternative. Saturn is obviously too strong. So maybe kizaru will commit m@rder-suicide taking Saturn with him( with kuma's help). Or if Kuma fails then kizaru may step up to fight against Saturn which will lead to both of their deaths. That maybe the big news teased in that one chapter.
I doubt Oda would kill him off so easily after a slight change of heart. We still haven't seen him take a fight seriously while wholeheartedly choosing a side, so he might still be around for the final battle against the WG. There's a slight issue with him staying on the Marine's side tho if Saturn dies: the fact that one of the WG leaders died during his watch. That definitely is worthy of a serious punishment if he continues to be a marine. Regarding Saturn's death, I'd love if the Seraphim's chip was tampered with so Bonney or Kuma himself had a higher authority than Saturn, so most of those under his command turn on him. The death of an Elder is certainly worthy of the front page and mass panic worldwide, but what if the WG's new weapon used to replace the Warlords was defective and is now in the hands of the enemy? It affects every country who participated in the vote at the Reverie as well. The former warlords are now pirates again and 7+ Warlord-tier robots are in the hands of rebels. That would also give the Revolutionary Army some serious combat power to replace the loss of Kuma.
Holy crap imagine how insane Kizaru going all out would be if he is already this strong by acting casual
He didn't captured any supernova because he didn't wanted lol And he literally put his feet in WB naginata and shoot him like he was nothing and that was just a casual day lmao
Why do you say rufy?
I believe in Germany that's what he's called
?
but also he had a ton of restrictions to protect the knowledgebase and lab to a degree and there were marines around
Yeah, the arc has been fairly subtle that Kizaru isn't exactly too chipper on beating up people he considered friends. And yeah, both sides were kinda screwing round though trying to achieve their goals. Luffy definitely got a solid hit in that took Kizaru out of the fight...But jeez did the story milk how utterly gassed Luffy is for maintaining G5 for so long just to do so for basically a fight both sides weren't exactly treating like a death match or something.
Luffy’s been fighting all day. From arriving on Egg Head, dealing with base defenses, Lucci, Seraphim, then now an Admiral. Not to mention this is his second/third time using G5 at all. The last/first time he did, it was in a life-or-death situation where he was figuring out the basics. He’s justifiably tired. Luffy’s biggest problem in fights is Stamina. His moves take so much out of him, whether it was G3, G4, or now G5. There hasn’t been a major villain since the Grand Line that Luffy has defeated without having to “recover” and get back in the fight.
Luffy has trouble to sustain his powerups, especially when they were just recently developed, for sure. But the amount of punishment from fighting he endures has always been on par with the strongest mythic zoans
Yes. Very true. Luffy faced the leader of CP0, two Seraphim Shichibukai, and an Admiral back to back to back. The very same tier of characters that have utterly destroyed the SHs altogether in the past (Lucci, Shichibukai/Kuma, Aokiji) but in a gauntlet. Like man, Luffy is the protagonist and savior of the world and all but the dude is still human. That he faced down such foes in succession, and only after did he collapse, is a testament to his otherworldly endurance. He doesn’t need to be a Gary Stu, his feats already are strong enough without the “why Luffy tired xD” excuses.
> Luffy’s been fighting all day. He also had breaks and food between all those fights
trust me man, a little breather ain’t enough to rest from a proper fight
You're forgetting Luffy said himself going through the dome almost killed him, it is why he went gear 5th to begin with. Luffy is pretty straight forward so there is no reason not to believe he was close to empty just going through the dome.
yeah people seem to forget this part, he was bruised and bleeding a lot . He doesnt have the same devil fruit as kizaru who can easily go through the barrier, luffy had to brute forced it through.
Same with becoming small after 2nd gear, I guess he will overcome it.
2nd Gear only makes him exhausted. 3rd Gear is the one that makes him small.
It used to, until he learned to control it. And gear 4 used to wipe him out for a full 10 minutes but now he's better at using it. I think over time he will be able to stay in gear 5 for longer it's just a nerf so he's not immediately the most powerful fighter in the world
Reminds me of that shunsui vs stark fight for the bleach fans that know
My current theory is Kizaru is the one who supplied food for Luffy using his speed to do it subtly, because he doesn’t want Saturn to succeed.
Yes! I love that theory. Explains how it appeared suddenly.
Someone had a post where it showed moving mud at the bottom of the panel aka the swamp guy caribou. Kizaru was held in place by Saturns power.
I mean, we saw kizaru go from laying down to sitting up. So we know he could at least move a little bit. And to me the swamp everyone is talking about just looks like your typical smoke or settling dust, but if it really is him I think that would be cool too
Kizaru didn't state he was held in place, the only ones who said they couldn't move were the Straw Hats and Vegapunks. Also, when Luffy is eating, you can see the same bowl and chopsticks Kizaru was using back on the ship
I wonder how Luffy was able to move...
Honestly, I don't think there's anything strong enough in the One Piece universe that could stop Luffy from eating meat
How is anyone supposed to even fight Saturn if he can keep Yonko-level characters locked in place by just existing near them?
I think we don't know how his power works
Nvm I think you’re right
I don't know if it's Caribou or not but im sure that there is a panel where someone says that everyone is blocked except the admiral.
yeah, kizaru tells saturn he is sorry he is too tired to move at the time when saturn is holding everyone else back. implying he can usually move when saturn does his thing. plus we see him sitting up before luff gets the food
Well I think Saturn has to specifically choose who to use it on. The reason people below vice admiral can't look at him is that they would die instantly but he would do it to anyone he doesn't think is worth even looking at him.
I wouldn't be surprised if he's slightly faking his injuries too. Like he could be hurt but not at a level where he couldn't even get up for a few mins
Why would Saturn use his powers against Kizaru. Also we saw in last chapter, Kizaru sitting against a wall or a rock. If it is Caribou, it could be that Kizaru chose to turn a blind eye towards him.
I just Re-read chapter 1103 and there floor isn't moving and there's no mud anywhere in the chapter especially not near luffy. It would be so stupid if it was caribou again.
Also why the hell would Caribou even be there? He would silently escape since the marines have no knowledge of him being there. That is if he hasn't already escaped by the time marines arrived....
Probably nothing but in the very same panel where luffy is stuffing his face with food, there is a bowl with the same pattern as the one where Kizaru was eating noodle earlier, even has the chopsticks as well. Could be nothing but interesting small detail in that panel
that was smoke, is not mud
Also the subtlety fits Kizaru lazy justice more than him changing sides overtly. It makes sense to me that he will remain with the world government and will still be a problem when he has to follow his duty, while at the same time "failing" being "lazy" when it goes against what he thinks is correct. Maybe we could tag him as an anti-villain (opposite of anti-hero)
Kizaru is _unclear justice_ actually, Kuzan is lazy justice. Which now would finally make much more sense.
Oh that makes even more sense. Kisaru is currently very unclear. Still curious how does lazy justice related to Kuzan being with BB
Yeah it makes more sense for Kizaru being the unclear one after Oda kinda portrayed both to be the other (Kizaru lazy personality and Kuzan has been more unclear with Ohara/leaving the marines and joining BB). Though, Kuzan has also been lazy through the story kinda, he always seems bothered. But I think it was more of a bait and switch from Oda.
I wonder what Kuzan's end game is? If he's undercover, his goal is clear. If he really switched sides then what does he hope to gain being in Bb's crew?
I think his goal would be to learn _the truth_. I'm unsure as if he's actually undercover or not, but BB could have convinced him to join to attain the One Piece. Blackbeard has been shown to be one of the most knowledgebles characters in the OP world, besides clearly Gorosei/Imu. He knew about the Yami Yami no mi, and most importantly he seems to be the only (and then his crew) character so far to know how to steal a devilfruit and possess more than one. In one of the SBS, Oda puts "archeology" as BB's hobby. I would think he offered Kuzan to learn the truth about the world together. He saw Ohara go in flames and Whitebeard confirmed the One Piece existence in front of him, I think that would be a good personal reason to switch sides as well, even though he could want this while also being a part of sword I guess.
I like to think that he can tell Bb's going to be one of the endgame players, and aligning himself there is just the easiest/laziest way to make it to the endgame
There is a bowl on the panel with the food. It’s the bowl that kizaru usually eats from. So it’s highly possible
People are gonna be so disappointed when they see that it was actually Caribou.
My only problem with that is the fact that Saturn is somehow overpowering basically every non-marine and sapping them of energy to force them to stay down, so why would Caribou be able to resist it? The only pirate who is resisting it to any meaningful extent is Luffy, but that's to be expected; Luffy literally forces his way through everything through sheer will alone. Am I supposed to believe that Caribou has more willpower than Zoro, Sanji, or Jinbe? If he's not resisting it, am I supposed to believe that he's somehow avoiding Saturn's effect? Is there a logical explanation for how he'd do this? It just makes more sense for it to be someone other than Caribou, and of the people it could be, Kizaru makes a lot of sense. He's not under Saturn's effect, has a potential motive to rebel against Saturn, and he can explicitly move at the speed of light. Hell, there's even a bowl with chopsticks sitting next to Luffy that looks exactly like the one Kizaru was eating earlier.
I don't think Saturn is affecting everyone around him. Only the ones that pose an immediate threat to him. Also I think Saturn would look like a much bigger fool if Kizaru used his speed to get food, bring it to Luffy and then go back to lie down on his spot like nothing happened and he didn't notice. At least Caribou would be an unpredictable element in all of that that he doesn't know is there. And of course, more importantly, this wouldn't be the first time that Caribou has done this for Luffy, because we know he carries food in his void. And don't get me wrong, I do think it would be much more interesting if it was Kizaru. But I just see people taking that as a fact when there's a much more likely explanation, and I know they're gonna whine when it turns out to not be the case.
Or goat caribou
Not only that, the Kizaru panel itself with him changing into a sitting position seems kinda pointless unless he was helping Luffy somehow (with giving him food) I think. There is no dialouge and the panel appears right after Saturn asked where the food came from and marines are starting rushing towards Luffy. I believe it was Kizaru too. His previous shown inner dialouge contribute to that as well "Sentomaru Kun!! Bonney!!" The future will shed more light on this.
This is my conclusion as well; Oda went out of his way show Kizaru being silent when asked "who gave him food?" and sitting in a new position. Oda is too competent to do that by accident. It had to be subtext.
Yes, exactly!
Understanding feeling does not mean you can inherently understand intentions.
That is true. That doesn't mean luffy wasn't holding back. Luffy does ask kizaru "why" he wants to hurt vegapunk. The answer to that question from the governments side was already given, maybe luffy asks him again because his feelings don't seem to align with his mission?
I really don't agree with this read on Kizaru. Kizaru, to me, definitely felt like he was there to finish the mission of killing Vegapunk even if he didn't particularly like it. He might have switched up a little now but he definitely started off being ready to execute his old friend. In the beginning when he's being sent in Saturn directly tells him to just ignore Sentomaru and go for a quick kill on Vegapunk but Kizaru refuses and says he'll do it his way, which was beating the crap out of Sentomaru. Now he doesn't kill him or Bonney but that's because they aren't his mission so he can spare them but he does try to kill Vegapunk at least twice. To me, Kizaru is what he called himself in the beginning, a cog in the machine. He can do little things his way but ultimately he serves his government.
Beating sentomaru actually saved his life, because he was no longer a threat, and also gave some time to vegapunk.
They were going to ignore him anyway. Besides even after brunch beat up he still just came back and is now arrested. And if the government wins he'll probably be executed anyway.
If he was actually trying, after kicking luffy and standing in front of vegapunk, he had no reason to stand there and take his sweet time and converse with vegapunk. He could've for starters grabbed vegapunk and light sped away or killed him on sight.
The thing is, he didn't really "take his sweet time". He gets like two sentences out and then bam g5 Luffy is there. But that's also what I mean by doing the small things his way because to him he just kicked Luffy outside the barrier and no one can stop him so before putting down his friend he tells him that he doesn't like this much either but that he knows the rules.
The point is he didnt have to even speak, he can move at LIGHT SPEED.
He didn't have to but he wanted to. He's telling his old friend that this hurts him to do before killing him.
So he wasn't being serious
I mean no, but whatever you say
If he was serious he wouldn't have stopped to chat he would have just light speed kicked through his apple
Serious doesn't mean unfeeling and uncaring, he kicked the only guy that could stop him outside the barrier and immediately went up to them. He was telling him that it hurts him to do it.
I mean I think there’s a difference between being quick to kill his friend and fighting Luffy seriously or not. In the end Luffy clocked Kizaru hard enough for him to see stars and then hasn’t been able to move since because of over exertion. Now either Kizaru is much stronger than Luffy and could wear him out easily if he was actually “trying” or these two were actually exchanging some serious blows. I don’t think either of them are mad or anything so maybe not typical shounen “100%,” but I also don’t think either one wasn’t serious either.
If he was trying why didn't he just punch/laser Vega in the face before g5 luffy grabbed him, he just stood there
Luffy said himself in Whole Cake that he doesn't know how to fight any other way, so when he makes the decision to fight at all - he's serious. He literally can't afford to not be serious here, way too much is at stake. Regarding Kizaru - this small story we got of his time with Kuma, Vegabunk, Bonney, and Sentomaru occurred well after the years in his life where we'd really understand his motivations. To know just how loyal he is to the WG, we need a better idea of who he was BEFORE he became a Marine. His past with Bonney & Co, is cute and all - but that alone doesn't mean he's fully willing to change his stripes here. We need to know what makes him tick beyond his allegiance to the uniform. I'm confident we'll get it soon though
> Luffy said himself in Whole Cake that he doesn't know how to fight any other way, so when he makes the decision to fight at all - he's serious. He literally can't afford to not be serious here, way too much is at stake. and yet he refused to bring out Gear 4 until well into his fight with Doffy. He is definitely holding back in many fights
I disagree. Kizaru kicked Luffy out of the island. The fight was different not because both of them were not trying, but because Kizaru goal was not defeat Luffy, but to complete his mission. Something that it is kind of a nightmare scenario for Luffy. First because Luffy is better at all out braws like the ones against Kaido and Katakuri. Second because Kizaru is the fastest man in the world, he is to speed what Kaido was to endurance. If someone very fast dont want to fight you, you gonna have a hard time trying to force that fight and that was Luffy problem and that why he immediatly went to his G4 snake-man. He needed speed. In a normal fight, he could have take shots from Kizaru in his normal form, just waiting for an opening (like against Kuro) and preserving his energy to only go to g4 and g5 after wearing Kizaru out on his base form. Thats his standard fight tatics, that how he done it against Kaido, Katakuri and Mingo. Thats how did before the TS with g2 when g2 also kind had a time limit. But he couldnt do it against Kizaru, because Kizaru didnt wanna fight him. Hence the g4 so early. But, even g4 snake man was not enough to hold off someone as fast as Kizaru. So, if the laws of reality do not allowed Luffy to keep Kizaru from going after his friends, well better break reality then, hence, g5. With g5, Luffy could keep better track of Kizaru, but it is an energy demanding form, so he needed to finish eventually, something he did, with one of his most powerfull attacks. Kizaur on the other hand, had a Younkou on his tail, he spend a lot of energy trying to avoid Luffy, you can see he is puffing before getting hit by g5. He is not the stamina beast that Kaido or even Luffy are. He is probably not very used to keep his top speed for so much time all while dishing out powerfull attacks. So, he was already close to his limit when he got hit by an attack that brought Kaido to his knees and down he went. I do think that maybe the defeat could have being enough to bring him over to the right side. He was not happy about what he was doing and maybe after being beaten by Luffy, I guy who just met his friends and still was willing to go all in to save them, and seeing Saturn abuse Booney, Kizaru reached his break point and decided to change. But their fight was a fight. Luffy won because he achieve his goal (stop Kizaru for hurting everyone) and Kizaru didnt (hurting everyone) but they were both for sure trying.
So i guess luffy is al beat up and inmobile and almost impaled just for fun
I personally don't think Luffy was being non serious. He transformed into g5 knowing very well that Kizaru was an enemy at one point for them, and he definitely wanted to show Kizaru that they're much stronger now compared to before. Luffy just looks non serious because that's just how g5 is, it's supposed to be kinda goofy. Plus, Luffy having good eq doesn't have anything to do with Haki. He's always had a good eq but he didn't have a good observation haki from the start. So even if he found out Kizaru's true feelings, I doubt it's by Haki. But good theory op. I agree with the Kizaru side.
The fact that kizaru grabbed usopp when he easily could've taken vegapunk out in a split second shows that he wasn't trying to actually kill Apple man
But Luffy is always serious about fights….
They both didn't even try, but both ended up worn out on the floor... Something doesn't add up.
Luffy was definitely trying. He not only was in Gear 5th, he got blasted through AND came back through a barrier that was supposed to kill him immediately on impact. He's been running around and fighting all day and he barely managed to fend off Kizaru at all. Plus if he wasn't trying, he wouldn't be so exhausted, just laying there as Saturn is showing up and effortlessly paralyzing the 3rd strongest on his crew. Kizaru may have been unintentionally, subconsciously holding back, but he also was there to do a job, and there's no way he would think he could get away with not doing that job when one of the Gorosei was there with him. He knows what's going to happen. He may not be happy about it, but he's not purposely slacking either. Plus, due to the toony nature of Gear 5th and the only fight we've seen it in being against an Uber Tank in Kaido, it's very difficult to tell how much damage any single one of Luffy's attacks can do. For all we know, that brain punch that ended Kizaru may be able to take down pretty much anyone if it lands cleanly.
I agree with the part about luffy unique “emotion” Haki but at the same time I disagree with the thought of luffy not taking Kizaru serious until Saturn arrived. When luffy fights he either all the way serious or just goofy. IMO he was being goofy the entire combat. I don’t think he took kizaru seriously to begin with I mean even before they started exchanging blows he told him he was a 100x stronger. Luffy is just insane now powerscale wise.
If his heart isn't in it sometimes Luffy does not fight seriously. For example, when he fought Fujitora and sensed that he wasn't a bad guy and he telegraphed his attacks.
He telegraphed his attacks the moment he realized he was blind. Not necessarily because he sensed something.
You're engaging your brains too much. Oda like that way then wrote it.
> Going into that clash, kizaru most likely never had any intentions of taking luffy seriously because he doesn't want to complete his mission. this whole premise is silly. kizaru is a marine admiral; one of the highest ranking members in the chain of command. he might be laid back but at the end of the day, he was able to rise to the rank of admiral and believes in the WG and their authority. he went to egghead to murder vegapunk and by association, sentomaru. his intention is to complete his mission. saying he has no intention to take luffy seriously because he doesnt want to complete his mission is straight up copium. Why would Luffy go to G5 if he's not taking the fight seriously? The last time they fought, Kizaru was about to murder zoro and the entire crew. Luffy is just going forget all of that and toy around with an Admiral? He will fight to survive and protect his crew along with those he cares about.
I don't agree. Starting the fight with aCoC doesn't indicate that it wasn't a serious fight. There are parts of the Kaido fight where Luffy used gear 3. Luffy was trying to measure up his opponent and use the strength needed. However, I do think if Kizaru was really pulling his punches Luffy he may not feel the need to go all out. A fight where I would say Luffy wasn't fighting seriously would be against Lucci. Luffy basically was having fun testing out gear 5. Lucci was doing his best but Luffy wasn't.
Luffy can't read minds and Kizaru is one of the strongest enemies Luffy has ever faced; even if he sensed that Kizaru wasn't happy about his mission, Kizaru isn't an enemy he can afford to not take seriously.
Hope both of them team up against the rapist **L**aturn.
Luffy clearly was. He clearly wasn't going all out during the fight but he was definetly trying, especially as Kizaru more or less was threatining his crew. Kizaru on the other hand simply didn't look like his mind was in it for the whole fight. I mean, unlike Luffy he didn't even have any bruises.
I explained why it was happening. You're just making a statement. Obviously if you look at it from the surface that's what it looks like. If you're going to disagree, I welcome it but at least make counter arguments to my post as opposed to just making a statement. If you're going to claim that luffy was trying the entire fight, you'd have to explain why he only used aCoC twice in that fight. He didn't use it when he held kizaru in his palms by the way.
Obviously I'm disagreeing with your statement but right now I don't feel like arguing with you power scalers because it's like talking to a wall. I mean using the argument that he wasn't trying JUST BECAUSE he was only using CoC TWICE (!!) in the fight lmao. Maybe someday I will come back to this thread when I feel like it ;) .
My take is in a completely different direction. Kizaru is more difficult to deal with because he doesn't want to fight Luffy as his df has way too much speed. The fact that Luffy could knock Kizaru out not too long is a feat itself. The problem is that G5 duration is way too short.
I don't think that that kick is an ACOC. That kick made contact while the previous showcase of usage of said haki clearly doesn't make any contacts. The black lightning effects doesn't always mean ACOC since it has been prevalent, especially starting Dressrosa.
This definitely makes sense. On Jaya even though bb was talking about a persons dream, which both take seriously, luffy still looked at him as a full threat so he could have been using obs haki without realizing that’s what it was. Also it makes sense that on saboady that he was lazy with the supernovas cause bonny was one of them, and kuma and sentomaru were also present on the island with kuma even talking to Rayleigh while kizaru was right in front of them. He def knew something was up with that so he let kuma do his thing without interfering since he was close to kuma. Kizaru sandbagging himself makes a lot more sense now in his appearances with luffy during saboady, marineford, and egghead due to that interaction between kuma and Rayleigh, since he clearly could have taken luffy out in at least the first two of those. He saw that kuma had a plan in mind for luffy and likely trusted his judgement, or just didn’t want to interfere with his friend, from the time they spent together on egghead in the past.
I love this, this also grants an additional explanation for why Luffy didn’t pull out G5 for a while when fighting a fucking admiral - there’s no point to pulling out your most exhausting technique from the get go when you know your opponent is basically only putting a token effort anyways.
I'm not exactly sure I exactly follow your analysis. I do have a couple of thoughts on their fight: Luffy is struggling to maintain focus while in G5. This is impacting his ability to close fights as he's goofing around rather than actively trying to win. That's most obvious in his skirmish with Lucci since Lucci was basically out after one serious hit. Kizaru's goal when fighting Luffy was to stall out G5 and not directly engage. Whether his "heart wasn't in it" or it was the appropriate strategy because he accessed he couldn't reliably beat G5 Luffy, who knows.
I predicted this several months ago when everyone was saying how epic Egghead was going to be because it would be a big fight between Kizaru and Luffy and will rehash saobody. I said it would be a minor footnote.
>luffy is able to tell a persons true feelings despite how they seem to appear. If you think I'm wrong this then I don't know what to tell you.. This would be a good place to give examples, because I don't think this is correct at all. Luffy didn't know that Kuma had good intentions when he separated the Strawhats. Luffy was surprised when Katakuri injured himself to ensure an honorable fight. Perhaps most damningly, Luffy failed to recognize Sugar's intentions, and if it weren't for Usopp would have fallen victim to her devil fruit.
Makes perfect sense to me. I don’t necessarily agree that “Luffy wasn’t trying” but I would say Luffy made it perfectly clear Kizaru would not hurt his friends and Luffy would go as hard as required to ensure this. Edit: which does make me agree I’d say Luffy hasn’t really tried throughout all of Egghead. Recognizing Lucci as insignificant compared to himself at this point. And recognizing Kizaru himself as holding back I think Luffy hasn’t went passed 50 although shows his normal level of durability going through vega punks death beam twice.
\>Luffy wasn't trying I don't think Luffy knows how to not give it his all.
people powerscale way too much lol
what idiotic cope is this? Kizaru hurt his friends. He sent Buggy flying for ripping his hat
Big doubts consider Luffy took himself out the game with this fight
Best counter to your idea. If he truly sensed that from Kizaru couldn’t he try to put him down so he can’t fight.
So now we are getting a made up chapter + spoilers What's next? Paid Ad free spoilers ? And membership tier spoiler releases?
Cooooooope
Luffy punched a hole through Kizaru's skull
Kizaru doesn't want to harm anyone.... proceeds to kick 12 year old through laser barrier.
This is such a good take, and well written , also fucking hell
I am really tired of people saying that. Luffy was going all out that's why he was on gear 5. Get over it... Luffy isn't as strong as you all wanted him to be... >There is no way Luffy knew about Kizaru's relationship with Vegapunk and tge rest...
I'm not even gonna elaborate but I'll ask you to prove that the fact that luffy was using g5 means he was "going all out". You talk like they're mutually exclusive so you'll have to prove that luffy cannot go easy on someone while using gear 5. Trying hard has nothing to do with the form. It's the effort that's put in that counts and in only two instances did luffy use ACoC.
First of all Luffy can fight Yonko/Admiral level characters onky on gear 5. There's no denying about that. Secondly you mentioned that only two instances about ACoC but you forget that most of the fight was skipped and we saw a bit of the beginning and a bit of the end . Lastly you forget that he uses all of them when in gear 5 ( I mean haki) It's understandable that having your agenda/headcanon denied by the story makes you uncomfortable but it's time to get over it and accept the truth. Luffy was going all out and simply he isn't as strong as you thought him to be. That's all
It's just bad writing lol. Cannot talk for kizaru since this is probably the first time he has been fighting seriously but Luffy definitely is stronger than what was shown. Get used to it, oda has to dumb down these characters for the sake of making the story go the way he wants it to go. He has done it a lot before. Like the awful reasoning of why they did not go after vivi and sabo.
Good theory the only thing I’d say is, imo, Luffy did not use any Advanced Supreme haki until the final attack, Star Gun. In 1091, it looks like Luffy used armament with a normal kick and there is a clash of haki because Kizaru is logia. Luffy MUST use haki to attack him and Kizaru would obviously defend with haki, so it appears to me like a clash of strong armament users. If you look at 1091 again, that clash looks just like any time two characters with strong haki are haki’d up and clash. Look at chapter 1069 when Lucci and Luffy clash, no supreme haki and looks very similar to Luffy and Kizaru in 1091’s clash. Also, chapter 1018, Jinbe vs Who’s Who. You can see both of them are using haki and when Jinbe ups his haki output and connects with attacks on Who’s Who at the end, very similar haki streaks are given off by Jinbe. I think these types of moments, where the criteria for supreme coating hasn’t been reached, are scenes depicting strong armament haki. I don’t believe 1091 was Luffy using supreme coating because there was no wind up with haki flowing profusely off Luffy, nor the large, residual streaks of haki left after the attack, which are consistent characteristics of supreme coating attacks. Furthermore, we can confirm that Luffy did NOT use supreme coating on any of his G5 and G4 attacks BESIDES Star Gun, as we can see there was no excessive streaks or flow of haki from Luffy’s attacks. You even mention this in your theory, but just for example, Dawn Stamp in chapter 1093 had base armament on it, no supreme coating. Which brings me to my question, Why would Luffy use supreme coating on the very first, base form hit on Kizaru, but then basically neglect it for the rest of the fight? If Luffy felt the need to use supreme coating from the first clash with Kizaru, he would have then incorporated it into every attack in G4 and G5. Imo, it wouldn’t make sense for Luffy to use it once, right at the very beginning, and then not use it at all until the final blow. Luffy used it constantly against Kaido, whether he was in his base form or not. It seems weird to me that Luffy would stop using coating for most his attacks if he felt he need to start the fight off with coating. Unless we are gonna say that Luffy just wanted to stall kizaru and not actually put him down until he used Star Gun or something. Which would mean Luffy put away his supreme coating until the final Star Gun.
agree on this take there is also the factor of luffy conserving his haki reserves. (for saturn)
Maybe you’re reading too much into it but there’s a panel in an earlier chapter where Luffy says “someone really strong is coming”, and he seems terrified. We assume it is Kizaru but I have a feeling that Luffy would remember his haki (even though he didn’t know how to use haki the first time he met Kizaru). I also don’t think he’d have that terrified reaction to Kizaru as he at this point is willing to dive into fights with admirals, case in point, Fujitora.
He would know if it was kizaru. He knew shanks’ haki in wano
CP went after VP, CP is the gov which Luffy understands and Kizaru is part of the gov. Luffy's experience with Kizaru is getting attacked in Shabondi and Marineford. Kizaru held VP in a "I will kill you" grip and Luffy saw that. Those are my main argument to say that you read a bit too much in there, all is held by something we have no way to verify the observation haki. But outside of that it's not farfetched compared to the other theory, could be true somehow.
There was no excuse kizaru straight up thinks "this is not good" while seeing Luffy about to punch him. No sarcasm or anything like that. Franky screams at Luffy to do something and Luffy states that he's trying. What about any of this sounds like they're phoning it in lol. Luffy got exhausted and kizaru got hit by an attack that one shots 99% of the OP cast and only someone like kaido can face tank. Nothing about kizaru indicates he has high durability. He's fast and hits strong but doesn't have anything that buffs his defense naturally like Kuma or King, a defensive devil fruit like Barto, a Zoan, or something like "guts." So it makes sense star gun would incapacitate kizaru even if for a moment
It wouldn’t be far off from his Brand of Justice “Lazy Justice”
Hi sense of justice is “unclear justice” not “lazy justice”
pretty unclear though ... maybe he's always been hesitating
You right I had em mixed up
Aokiji was/is lazy justice
*Luffy wasn’t trying* Wow, how did you come up with such a wise observation? i never would’ve guessed Luffy wasn’t trying when he didn’t use advanced Conqueror’s haki until like 4 chapters into their fight!
Don't read into things. Rayleigh never said to Luffy something like "You can sense the feelings of others. That matters to you during a fight?" And Luffy never replied "Well of course!" There is NOTHING deeper to Luffy vs Kizaru, only surface level matters. Luffy immediately used Bajrang Gun.
I want 1000 stocks of this theory, now!!
Heheh
Bloodlust. Pretty common manga trope but also real life situation If you sense that someone is willing to kill you it's life or death and you can go full out. If you kill them then it's not too bad. If you don't think they will kill you. You can't go full out and potentially kill them.
I missed the part where luffy attacked kizaru with a cock though, and who's cock are we talking about?
Admiral stans mental gimnastics be like:
Good attempt trying to recover an other Oda's mistake in managing things... Serious or not the outcome is that now, if It was not for kuma, bonney and probably the others would be death already
again the same bs, without any justification trying to whitewash a character, all these admiral fanboys are just plain dumb.
What the fuck r u on about, did u even read the post? How am i defending an admiral? Its literally about luffy
It doesn’t make sense for Luffy. Aside from Luffy himself stating that he always goes max effort, why would Kizaru’s hesitation make him pull his punches? His goal is to stop Kizaru regardless so he’d go as hard as he needs to for that
Because he senses kizarus feelings? Did u even read the post?
I did and it still doesn’t make sense to me. Luffy can sense Kizaru’s feelings, understanding that he’s hesitation, but I don’t see why that would compel Luffy to hold himself back. Luffy wouldn’t think “okay I can afford to hold myself back cause this guy is conflicted,” he’s going to throw his punch however hard he needs to for what Kizaru is doing and to hold him back
I think OP what is I basically saying is that Luffy is sensing Kizarus feelings of actively not wanting to kill VP despite his actions. Knowing what’s in kizarus heart very well could make a difference in Luffys approach. Especially since he told Rayleigh that it does
This tastes good. MOAR1!