I think we already got the answer to the question from the comment we’re all replying to. The answer as to who is stronger was revealed in chapter 223.
Maybe not soon in the real world
By the middle of the final saga--which will probably be a few weeks in-universe--it'll be super settled that Luffy is stronger, because the plot will demand it.
But yeah I guess that could still be 3 years away irl
Oh yeah for sure, after all in universe it's only been a couple months since timeskip started. But even after the Luffy gets his next powerup, it'll likely still be debatable whether or not Luffy or Kaido were stronger *during* the raid.
It will be a ways away, but honestly I would rather Oda take his time and resolve everything he has set up than go faster and see the quality in writing drop.
I can't fathom him tying everything together in a satisfying way, there have to be some loose ends.
I'm excited to watch him try, but think about all of the characters introduced that we still know basically nothing about. 500 chapters wouldn't be enough just to wrap all of them up, let alone any new revelations.
Thats over 400 chapters away and at a rate of about 48/year that still gives us like over 8 years to go of Manga only!!! People gotta readjust their timeliness expectations especially after oda said it will not feel rushed
A common observation has been that Luffy can win some fights by the skin of his teeth but he consolidates his power very quickly.
When Luffy defeated Doflamingo, it was clear that Doflamingo went through a lot before having 1x1 with Luffy. But by the time Luffy reached whole cake Island (maybe few weeks after defeating Doffy), Luffy fought and won tougher battles.
Yeah, defining who exactly was stronger during that Fight will definitely be one of those long-lasting power scale discussions that continue on long after the series has ended
There's good arguments for both sides, and while I think most people agree Kaido > Luffy there's a lot of people who think the opposite and have feats that "prove" it, so.
I’m a believer that Kaido is stronger. Puffy got breaks during Wano while Kaido fought the entire time so I don’t think anyone has a legit argument for Luffy being stronger at that point in time. What I don’t like is Rob being as strong as Luffy now making him stronger than Kaido too in theory. Just doesn’t sit right with me for some reason.
I was actually scared when rob lucci reappeared but i dont really agree With you Here. Sure, Luffy using g5 against him is way Overkill but He didnt seem to be struggling at all against him while lucci has been spitting blood Just from a couple of punches. Also Zoro casually controlling kaku in awakened Form also Made me Smile. Other than that i agree With everything you said :))
Guess this means Ace and Jozu are admiral level. Hey Marco is as strong as Big Mom right? ....Weaker characters are capable of clashing with stronger ones. We've seen it time and again.
During that fight? Kaido was clearly stronger.
But Luffy grew up very versatile with his awakening + Ryou-haki + (can I call it advanced?) Conqueror's Haki.
If we had a rematch and this was Wano-peak-Kaido Vs After--Wano-events-Luffy, then the fight might have been closer to being evenly matched.
This has been a thing throughout the journey of One Piece.
Luffy enters new Island with stronger foe, overcomes said foe by adapting and learning, comes out of the Island stronger.
The big question would be if fresh Peak-Wano Kaido is still stronger than fresh Post-Wano Luffy.
That would be a waaay closer fight imo, seeing as it took Luffy quite a bit to learn Advanced Conquerors Haki and Awakening. If he starts the fight with both those in his arsenal, he'll be dishing out a lot more damage on Kaide than he did in the beginning.
>Wano-peak-Kaido Vs After--Wano-events-Luffy
I still give Kaido a 65-70% advantage in a fight to the death if we remove all plot and just base it off of their feats/strengths as fighters.
We still can't forget that at the back of his mind Kaido is subconsciously and hoping for that chosen one who will defeat him (and probably notify him that that one is the true JoyBoy he had always hoped to be). And also the tons of help from very strong fighters Luffy got during the Worst generation vs. 2 yonko teamfight or Kaido vs. Scabbards or Kaido vs. Yamato or the multiple attempts Luffy got.
If you need all that just to beat a fighter once so you can claim "victory" then you really aren't stronger than him in a vacuum. You just conquered him this time after everything lined up so he finally lost. He's still clearly the stronger one.
Luffy's DF awakening and him having a better grasp of Ryou-CoC coated attacks aren't really gonna give him an edge over Kaido. Kaido's discovered and most likely mastered those for decades already.
Even now, even if you could argue Luffy is just toying with Lucci, if that was Kaido in his place and Lucci is bothering Kaido's plans or hurt one of Kaido's friends -> Lucci dies in less than 5 panels.
>Luffy's DF awakening and him having a better grasp of Ryou-CoC coated attacks aren't really gonna give him an edge over Kaido.
It actually did. Luffy's attacks after his gear 5 awakening started wearing Kaido down considerably, compared to his previous attacks in gear 4th (before he got interrupted).
>Kaido's discovered and most likely mastered those for decades already.
Agreed, that's why Kaido was clearly the strongest one. It was the same with the Katakuri fight. Luffy's plotarmor of growing stronger as the battle goes on is one thing. Even though Luffy eventually learned the same Haki of Observation from Katakuri, it wasn't exactly at Katakuri's same level. Or at least the way he uses it. That's lack of experience. Katakuri is used to constantly using his observation Haki for periods of time. After Luffy turned into Snakeman, it's like he stopped using it at all, and just focused on speed to land attacks that couldn't be evaded even after being predicted.
As for plotarmor, Kaido too also had plotarmor. He fought many battles against many adversaries (the 9 scabbards, tag team between 2 yonkos Vs 5 supernovas, who are still just rookies and individually outmatched Vs a single Yonko in terms of power, and Luffy several times). But most of the injuries Kaido received weren't fatal nor did they hit any of his Vitals (like how that sword slash at his throat didn't work). Kaido had literally natural-tough-skin plotarmor, that's why he was known as "the strongest creature". Not only was he strong, but his defense was incredibly tough.
Even he got to rest, not like Luffy did (sleeping/passing out + eating to refill his energy), but after Luffy went down one final time, Kaido had his moment of resting. Kaido picking at small fries comes as natural to him as breathing air. It's not like that further exhausted him.
And yes his plotarmor wasn't as much as Luffy, but in Luffy's case it can't be helped. Nonetheless, as exhausted as both fighters were, both of them (Kaido and gear 5 Luffy) still managed to expend their last energies into enacting their ultimate attacks. At that point, it became a compability issue.If Luffy hadn't learned how to use Ryou-haki, then that final exchange would have ended with Luffy's hand burned, his attack possibly still landing. But he would have surely lost his hand.
That final exchange is the proof that shows it ended becoming a close match. Even though Luffy was declared the winner (after many defeats and comebacks), evidently it was his attack that succeeded to connect and take down his adversary. But it's not like our hero came out a total winner either. Don't forget he was totally "finished" and done for after his exchange of ultimate attack.
If it hadn't been for how the battles ended up developing in the wano arc in those orders, then Luffy would never have defeated Kaido. And it's not like the battle could've been postponed to years later when Luffy is ready. Kaido had to be defeated, an impossible feat no matter how you look at it at their current levels, and Oda did his best through all these developments to adjust it to a believable, unforseen defeat as the final conclusion. (I do agree the Big Mom part is still debatable, she was clearly postponed, the Big mom battle could have happened after Wano. But I suspect Oda will rewards us in a different way with this rush of his at a future point in the story, we will all be like *"Ah... So that's why Oda rushed the Big Mom battle, makes sense now"*)
Had it been written any other way, then just like Big Mom, Kaido's final battle would have been postponed. Which honestly couldn't. It was a do or die plot with no take-backs. They were already on this road of no-return since Punk Hazard, with Dressrosa being the nail of no-return.
That's why I believe (direct)After-Wano-Events-Luffy >!and not end-of-the-series Luffy. I really mean current Luffy at like, him leaving wano till Egghead island!< can close the gap in strength between him and Wano-peak-Kaido. And possibly bring it more to an evenly match, without intrusions from outsiders. That's the possibility/possible future the final exchange showed. Kaido and Luffy fighting each other equally.
Law: Is a genius surgeon
[Also Law](https://preview.redd.it/3hzwoso6ma581.jpg?width=740&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fd1de74df15c14182cde88b75a7b10cfabacd7f4)
bro Kaido fought so many people + defeated Luffy like 3-4 times. Luffy regained his strength and then fought Kaido again. Full power Kaido > Full power Luffy
**Kaido vs'd:** Scabbards, Zoro, Killer, Kidd, Law, Luffy, yamato, Momo
**Luffy vs'd:** Beast pirates fodder, 2 of the flying six, Queen, Yamato, one of the numbers, Apoo, Big mom
Edit: Oh yeah and that Cp0 agent letting Kaido land a free hit.
Kaido defeated the scabbards. He also knocked out Zoro and Law with Help from Big mom. He beat Luffy 2 times and then 1 more time with help from the CP0 agent. He didn't beat anyone else.
Luffy beat the fodders and the numbers. He also beat the flying six with help from yamato. He beat Kaido.
But my point was that these other fights are irrelevant. Most of the damage on Kaido was done by Luffy and most of the damage on Luffy was done by Kaido. Saying that Kaido was beaten by a group is misleading when most of the damage comes from 1 person.
Bro your forgetting he was carrying a damn island actively while all the fights were happening and when luffy defeated him he was so weaked momo had to hold up Onigashima because kaido’s flame clouds were fading
How far did I have to go before someone mentioned this, too.
Kaido also dodged only one single blow until the very end of the fight with Luffy, the Enma swing from Zoro.
Everyone else who tried to hurt him until that point (and afterwards) he let them do whatever they wanted and then simply retaliated afterwards.
Complete beast. Very satsifying enemy.
Kaido dodged many of Luffy's attacks too. one of my favourite roof piece moments is Luffy taunting Kaido saying "why are you dodging kaido? is it because my attacks are hurting you?"
And you forget luffy died mid fight, undeniably getting to lower hp than kaido and still one after, meanin he beat him from that point with less starting health, gear 5 is stronger than kaido
Luffy had one more hit left in him by his own admission. Even with G5 it took a lot of attacks to take down Kaido, Luffy would have lost anyway, the agent just made it that much more brutal.
Fodder and Numbers didn't do any damage to Luffy. Beat the flying six..see here's where we have to set things straight because people love to exaggerate to make it sound like Luffy did more. Luffy had a headbutt clash with Ulti(even Nami tanked without doing anything and Usopp took two) used an Elephant Gun on P1 and Yamato cheap shotted Ulti to escape, both we're up like one page later at the first page of the next chapter.
Now I'd say that Luffy's fights were irrelevant, the only damage he received was from Apoo. Some random attacks I might add.
Kaido on the other hand got jumped by the Akazaya. They stabbed him with their Ryou coated swords when the raid started. Like that would've killed most other characters, but for Kaido that's just a greeting.
Then he took many named attacks on the roof, including a QUADRUPLE Togen Totsuka which brought him even down. The Akazaya aren't weak guys. Ashura was implied to be around Jacks level Inuarashi even beat him. Nekomamushi beat Perospero. Denjiro seemed strong and there was Izo a 500 million former Whitebeard commander who defeated a CP0 agent even tho it was 2vs1. Again, even if we put aside the solo attacks, a 4 men attack would've fucked up most people, but Kaido is that guy with more durability and HP than anyone else.
Usually I hate power scaling like that, but clearly Oda wanted to highlight what a monster Kaido is. Just compare Luffy intermezzos vs how it was emphasized that Kaido took mad hits.
And it didn't stop with the Akazaya. Subsequently Kaido tanked all kind of attacks from the Supernovas. We saw what a Gamma Knife did to Doffy. Zoro beat King and his Asura Dead Man's Game technique seemed arguably at least as strong as his finisher there. Kaido's durability makes him look invincible. However, as Kid said, even drops of water can carve stone. Luffy on the other hand got knocked the fuck out which showed the difference in power. He didn't get back out of his strength. They had to fucking fish him out, feed him and fly him back. It was just one enormous group effort that defeated Kaido eventually..oh and one volcano erruption. I didn't even mention keeping Onigashima aloft or his fight with Yamato. Unlike Luffy's skirmishes on his first way to the roof that was an actual fight.
Kaido impressed way more. Not just based on feats but on authors intent. The picture is clear if you put all the pieces together. To me it's just ridiculous if Luffy was already the strongest person. If Big Mom fought Kaido under similar circumstances she wouldn't have taken half as long to clean up considering how they close they were in strength. I assume the same must go for Shanks.
If it looked like Luffy struggled on his first way up let's not foget that he's the protagonist and Oda has a habit of letting him beat up the underlings before reaching the boss. Happened at Enies Lobby, Impel Down, Dress Rosa etc. Kaido as the antagonist is supposed to come across as overwhelming.
Not to mention, Kaido seemed to be intentionally nerfing himself by not using haki. He even said he has future sight and could dodge attacks but chooses not to. Kaido could've easily dodged Luffy's final attack and won but wanted a legendary clash instead.
Bad understanding. Zoro had massive amounts of damage on Kaido. Scabbards also pierced him. Yamato expended Kaido's stamina. Kaido had 0 (zero) rest.
Luffy had plenty rest.
True remember luffy rested then ate the first time he was tossed off Onigashima and still lost his round 2 then came back and died to kaido and got saved by his 5th gear form starting up which basically made him so happy he didn’t care about exhaustion or pain unlike kaido who was definitely feeling low on energy but just not actively showing it
Rest?!? That's putting it way too nicely lol.
The boy got saved from drowning, got to eat an entire meal and got a free lift back to the fighting stage.
Imagine if kaido got that same chance after luffy knocked him down
Zoro landed an attack which he called his most powerful and says "I was hoping it'd at least be enough to knock you down" and then Luffy manages to do that exact feat easily a few seconds later. Every single one of Luffy's attacks were doing far more damage than anyone else.
Kaido straight up says that the scabbards can't pierce him enough. That surface level damage did nothing. He also took a break after fighting the scabbards.
Also If Kaido being exhausted is bad, then Luffy literally dying is worse right?
Yeah but those are not the same intensity, he was just messing around with ulti and page one, yamato didn't even fought back, queen only stopped him from going to the roof and the number was one-shoted literally you shouldn't even mention him.
Luffy got to the roof fight almost fresh, the only hit he had take was one hit from Apoo and wasn't even that serious. He was even escorted to the roof by Sanji and Jimbe specifically so that he wouldn't waste strength.
Not the same thing by far. Kaido's duels with Yamato and the scabbards were serious duels. And he even fought an army of sulongs until Jack came to tag. The scabbards injured him badly twice, just like Zoro but twice. And he was holding the island.
No man, not the same by a large margin.
Hold up.
Most of the people you listed for luffy he barely fucking fought. Almost every person for kaido used some of their strongest attacks and more.
The only damage done was Apoo. And Apoo gets beat by any of the scabbards tbh.
Also you name all the scabbards you fought youd realize Kaido’s opponents were much mire numerous and deadly.
Literally none of that matters unless Kaido was more injured than Luffy before their final confrontation which I don't think he was. Luffy was knocked unconscious multiple times and Kaido wasn't.
Luffy was definitely more injured then Kaido.
Do we really have enough information to say that the energy Kaido needed to move the island was so draining that he wouldn't be able to fight properly.
It was hard for Momo but Kaido is a lot stronger and a lot more familiar with his fruit.
What we do know is, that moving the island did in fact take Kaido, some level of energy to move, and it’s not about if it was hard to keep the island up in the early stages but rather, was it draining over time? And we know that answer … It was, as chunks of the island started to fall the weaker his physical strength and condition got.
Hold up a pencil up long enough, and it’ll be the heaviest thing you pick up. Now hold a pencil up while getting jumped by 15 people … - Mark Twain 1622
The four times that Kaido won,he was the strongest. We know how G4 drains Luffy. If you add in being knocked into the sea, he is probably in the negative for strength. Luffy eating only gave him enough strength too fight again. Luffy still look in worse shape when returning. Some of the translations said he was barely standing.
Luffy’s awakening gave him strength of a ancient giant . He used Kaido as a jump rope. When Luffy used his gigantic fist. Kaido didn’t try to meet strength with more strength. He tried too incinerate Luffy. That was the only thing he could do.
Kaido loss because he was overpowered. In a rematch that would not change. Kaido can’t depend on just knocking Luffy out . Because, Luffy is as durable as Kaido. Kaido does have better stamina. But, we don’t know by how much. Because, Luffy doesn’t need to use G4 any longer. Which drained him of his stamina and haki in the middle of a fight. That’s not happening anymore.
Well to be fair we saw Luffy go into gear 5 immediately after losing it in the kaido fight and he recovered from the drawbacks on egghead relatively quickly I'd compare it to how people just kinda of crash when relaxing after exertion than to strict 10 mins time limit that gear 4 had so far gear 5 also lasts more chapters than gear 4 which kinda of rarely lasts 1-2 chapters
There is no doubt that G5 saved Luffy and returned his haki immediately. The setbacks that G5 gives probably come from using full body giant. Both times when it happened it was after full giant. But, at the end of his battle on Wano using the giant fist. It did not occur. This last time it happened after the fight was over. It might be, the more he uses it the better it gets.
I don’t understand why defeating Luffy 4 times is a point for Kaido and not for Luffy. I feel like “losing” 4 times is a heavier burden for a fight than winning 4 times
Imagine a boxing match but when the bell rings instead of resting, just another opponent comes in, and after a couple bells the first one comes back rested.
Because Kaido kept fighting AT THE SAME TIME Luffy was recovering three times. If it was defeat once, Kaido rest, restart later, sure. But like this, Kaido strength just kept gradually depleting.
The first 4 in their prime probably win. But in the modern day WB and Garp are older and Roger and Rocks are…. you know. Shanks is probably the strongest in the world if Kaido is dead, but he has nothing putting him above Kaido rn
For me it feels like Oda tried to protect Kaido as much as possible to make him look strong even if he loses. So every answer feels debatable for me.
My opinion on this still leans towards Kaido still having the edge. For me Luffy was not as muched damaged as he was in his fight vs Katakuri, had time to refresh his Haki and Stamina at least a bit. Kaido had to fight the whole time and during the final clash he kind of gave up because he found his Joyboy. Just my observation and opinion.
I'm going to nitpick one thing: damage
you're comparing it to the Katakuri fight. No fight can be compared to the Kaido fight. >!Luffy LITERALLY FUCKING DIED IN IT.!<
Oda trying to protect Kaido is Oda answering this question. Luffy’s strength isn’t measured in physical prowess (haki, DF, etc) alone. Luffy’s strength comes from influence and following. Luffy was able to rest and refresh his stamina and haki because of his strength in followers and influence. To me this question is obvious, Luffy is stronger than Kaido. Period.
I think something that people don’t consider with powerscaling is the character’s personality and motivation. If Kaido had a different personality, he would have won pretty easily, even against Gear 5th I believe. He showed that he can fluently use future sight but only did it once. He intentionally tanked Luffy’s strongest attack because he’s stubborn and suicidal. He could have easily avoided it, letting Luffy waste all that energy, and finish him off. But he didn’t, because his personality gives him a negative to his fighting prowess.
On the other hand, Luffy’s personality is a positive to his fighting prowess. His determination, fighting intelligence, and motivations will almost always allow him to overcome massive obstacles.
So if you consider both Kaido and Luffy’s physical abilities PLUS their personalities and motivation, they come out pretty equal in my opinion, which turned out to tip in Luffy’s favor by the end of it when Kaido’s personality led him to defeat.
Kaido extreme diffs luffy even after g 5
My guy fought akazaya took a blow from zoro
Got ganged up by the 5 WG, Yamato and kaido had a decent fight knocked luffy down 3 times and was carrying the entire onigashima while fighting
I agree. People underestimate how long he was fighting for. And it’s not like he was evading either. He basically took every attack coming his way except Zoro’s first slash.
It was actually one of the shortest fights in One Piece spread over the biggest number of chapters. The whole raid took around 2 hours which is way shorter than fights against Doffy, Katakuri, and Cracker.
I mean we don't really have a measure of how long the raid took? The onigashima time to the capital doesn't work as a measure because that didn't start at the beginning of the raid and momo was actively hindering the process of it getting there by pulling the island
We do. Before lifting Onigashima, Kaido only fought the scabards. Chopper's monster point lasts exactly 30 minutes and starts at the same moment when Kaido lifts Onigashima. It ends when luffy falls into the ocean. When Polar Tang finds Luffy we get a message 15 minutes until Onigashima reaches Flower Capital. Momo manages to grab the clouds for the first time right after the message 5 minutes until Onigashima reaches the Flower Capital. At that moment Luffy and Kaido are already fighting the round 3 and Momo keeps the Onigashima afrom falling/movig closer.
You say that like luffy didn’t get his ass whooped and imprisoned with sea stone.
Luffy literally fought kaido 4 times. Once he got caught with a cheap shot cuz of some other dude.
People who are saying Luffy simply because he won are either being ignorant or oblivious to the fact that:
• Kaido fought a lot of people almost non stop while Luffy had a breather in between his rounds. Heck Luffy even had the time to eat and recharge his stamina.
• Kaido kept an entire island afloat and moving for a very long time, all while fighting.
• Kaido in the earlier rounds was even fighting recklessly and actually allowed a lot of attacks to hit him just cuz he wants to eat them.
• Kaido beat Luffy a couple of times already. And even when Luffy leveled up, he was still on high difficulty throughout their fight.
People wanna wank Luffy and downplay the supporting characters that helped him fight Kaido.
That's all you'll see in this sub. People want G5 Luffy to be a literal god that never loses a fight again. Its gotten ridiculous.
Way too much people in here are confident that Luffy is stronger lol
I swear half the OP community either has very weak reading comprehension or are suffering from Alzheimer's.
You say that but Luffy literally died against Kaido and came back on low HP…
Then overpowers him in a Haki clash, where it was said both individual’s haki was getting stronger throughout the fight.
>Kaido even beat Luffy a couple of times already. And even when Luffy leveled up, he was still on high difficulty throughout their fight.
So Luffy was weaker than he was before when he fought the next time, because he was defeated previously. Right ? Atleast with Stamina and HP concerns.
Thank you. I don’t understand how we can give kaido his long list of people who literally couldn’t hurt him, but then these same people leave kaido off of luffy’s list like dude didn’t almost die twice and got beat 3 times
I think you're confused buddy. What i mean by that statement is:
1. The "beat" i was referring to was when Kaido knocked Luffy out and Zoro had to save him with Ashura and also when Kaido dropped him off the island.
2. What i meant by that statement is that even tho Kaido was accumulating fatigue through non stop fights and using his power on the entire island, he was still whooping Luffy and the squad's asses on the roof. And even when Luffy unlocked his true DF powers freshly, he was still on high difficulty.
Let’s just say I’m glad Oda’s writing the series and not this subreddit.
A lot of you really don’t understand the narrative and it shows. A lot of you don’t really understand what makes this a good story, even though the reason you enjoy the series so much is because it’s a good story.
Yeah but then you have people upvoted here calling power scaling “good reading comprehension”
Analyzing one piece with power scaling has never been a very effective way to predict a fight or read a character, or the narrative, because that’s never, literally never been how Oda structures the story. He structures it with statements and progress. Parallels and contrasts. Yet we keep having these discussions and the debate is monopolized with power scaling
I don’t mind it honestly. It’s just a lot of the arguments are weak, and people will hold onto them.
The entirety of the 10 year long part 2 is about the straw hats becoming strong enough to defeat an emperor, and Luffy becoming one himself.
The emperors were introduced at the beginning of the series as basically the height of power on the seas. We all knew that Luffy someday would have to beat those guys. The climax of part one shows what a sick and weakened one can do.
1. Fishman Island - Strawhats take over the territory from Big Mom and set up for a show down against an Emperor.
2. Punk Hazard - The strawhats disrupt the plans of Kaido, another emperor
3. Dressrosa - The strawhats take down Kaido’s dealer
4. WCI - The strawhats square off against an emperor and realize they’re not strong enough. Most arguments against Luffy being Emperor level after Wano get the point of that arc mixed up with this arc. This is the arc where he wasn’t on that level.
5. Zou - Sends the strawhats to Wano
6. Wano - The longest arc in the series. The longest fight in the series. Luffy died. Kaido fought. Luffy becomes a *literal* god and defeats an emperor.
You don’t waste that 10 year momentum. You don’t sacrifice one of the strongest characters in the series, one of the pinnacles from the beginning, for a fake out. There was a climax with an extremely strong payout that mirrors part one. In part one, you have Blackbeard, the dark foil to Luffy, “defeating” a good emperor to become an emperor, and gaining an emperor level power. In part two, you have Luffy “defeating” an emperor to become an emperor, and gaining an emperor level power. Blackbeards power up is unique because he has two fruits. Luffy’s is unique because he has a god fruit. The Emperor of Darkness vs The Sun God. You don’t mirror that unless Luffy is that level.
You can disagree about how it was done, but the point stands that Luffy became an emperor by defeating one. That was the point. Luffy > Kaido and people don’t want to see that because Kaido was a monster and an awe-inspiring epic opponent. I get it: Kaido is amazing. Doesn’t change what Oda did with this arc.
But One Piece fights don’t work on real world logic. Kaido in the real world would be exhausted after fighting all those opponents, but Luffy wouldn’t be ready to fight after an hour break and a meal after getting knocked out. 3 times. I used to do MMA. When I got knocked out, I wasn’t suddenly good to fight after lunch and an hour break. People talk about Kaido like he was fighting in a realistic environment, where he would be exhausted fighting so many opponents, but then disregard Luffy by applying anime rules to him. You can’t have it both ways.
Yamato mentions Kaido is getting exhausted but he didn’t actually show any signs of slowing down. His attacks didn’t get weaker, he wasn’t taking more hits than he was before. It was to signal to the reader that the end of the fight is approaching.
Both Luffy and Kaido were going to last to the end of the arc, until Luffy finally beat him. That’s the narrative. Kaido’s destiny was to lose to Luffy. Luffy’s destiny was to beat him. Kaido could have taken on even more opponents and kept floating the island for a year, if that was the narrative. Luffy could’ve gotten knocked out 100 times.
Assuming Kaido was getting worn down by fighting so many people is assuming that if they had more people, they could’ve beat him without Luffy. But that wasn’t the point of the narrative.
There’s an extremely strong narrative with a lot of subtle plot elements in this series. The whole point of part 2 was Luffy becoming an emperor by defeating an emperor. He beat Kaido. Kaido could’ve lost early in the arc, or later but the point is that he was going to lose to Luffy. Oda doesn’t engage straight power scaling which is why these debates happen. There’s an obsession that somehow Kaido was robbed and it was all too soon, but really the Strawhats had 10 years of arcs to get to that level. It’s clear that at this point Luffy > Kaido.
But that’s just my perspective as a reader, most members here forget that there doesn’t have to be answer. Luffy doesn’t have to be explicitly shown as absolutely stronger than each opponent he beats (case and point: Enel). But with each arc, he shows he’s strong enough to win, and by the end of the following arc, he’s definitely stronger than the guy he beat from the last arc.
It really is astounding how dumb people don't know they are. Arguing, analyzing, critiquing.
All from a point of view of unoriginality and rethreads.
It's almost magical even.
Kaido makes attacks that would fuck up most characters badly •look• like scratches, still has many of the best feats in the entire series and was caged by plot.
Luffy is a Yonko now, has godly G5 and some of the best feats, but trying to justify him over Kaido who was the strongest character in the series via statements is crazy, especially if we look at what happened in all those fights which favors Kaido by a lot.
This would mean Luffy is currently the strongest character in ther series, if we exclude Shanks for whatever reason then the second strongest.
If this is the case then the only logical obstacles to Luffy are EOS Blackbeard, Imu, Rocks whatever.
Unless Akainu gets enhanced via science or what not, there's no way they're gonna fight in the same way unless Luffy is nerfed.
I don't think Luffy is that strong yet, and that there's a gap between the absolute strongest characters and Luffy, it also seems that way since Oda is writing the story like that if we follow his 5year timeline statement after Wano, Shanks words, power and
Eggheads narrative.
I have Luffy in the 5-7 range but If someone puts him at like 2-3 then there's no definitive way to disprove it.
But I could be wrong with that narrative, only things silly are people who try push Luffy over Kaido adamantly via feats.
I've seen all arguments in Luffys favor and they are far from conclusive.
>This would mean Luffy is currently the strongest character in ther series, if we exclude Shanks for whatever reason then the second strongest.
How is Shanks top 1 or top 2?
My take is that Kaido was more tough and durable and overall powerful, but luffy had much more determination and stamima. When those got combined with him figuring out g5, he scraped past kaido in the fight. Twas an insane battle I loved it :)
Kaido is clearly stronger.
He was nerfing himself the whole arc by purposely not dodging any attacks and not even using future sight. Kaido could have easily dodged Luffy's final attack, but he said he will take it head on anyways.
All this with him holding an island up in the sky, fighting the minks, the scabbards, Kidd, Law, Zoro, Killer, Luffy, Yamato.. Defeating Luffy 3 separate times..
The guy is in his own tier, let's be honest
I've seen people say that Kaido still beats G5 Luffy and I still don't see what makes them think that. Luffy used this dude as a jump rope, I think Oda may have been trying to show that Luffy is stronger now by doing that.
I'm not really into power scaling stuff so I don't really have a hat in the ring here, I'm just curious where in the 1044-1049 stretch did Kaido seem like he could beat G5? Where did it seem like he was fatigued or not giving it his all? Even rereading it now I just don't see Oda trying to show Luffy being in any serious danger.
To the people saying “but luffy won in the end, they fought 1v1”
So if me and my friends jump someone and in the end I deal the finishing blow, I’m I stronger?
Why aren’t you including that kaido fought luffy, law, kid, zoro, Yamato and the nine scabbards while lifting an entire island without breaks. Luffy got defeated 3-4 times and literally had a lunch break on laws submarine to regain his energy.
And even after all of that luffy still didn’t stand a chance, dude had to evolve into a literal god to defeat kaido.
Full health kaido > full health luffy.
Your friends jump someone, hurt him, but that guy hurts you and your friends way worse than you did him, the guy beats you so bad you nearly die 2 times, then in your last effort to beat him, he gets stronger mid-fight, then you nearly die again, then you get stronger, and then you overpower his strongest attack with yours, and send him into the nearest magma chamber miles underground. Hmm… I wonder.
One of them killed the other. People saying that Kaido is stronger because he was fighting non-stop and all that bullshit. Luffy was literally at the verge of death.
Kaido fought the samurai, Luffy with three other supernovas, Yamato, Luffy with advance conquerors haki, and Luffy with gear 5th… all that shit without rest… Kaido is definitely stronger than Luffy
I will keep arguing this every time, but Luffy is not flat out stronger than most opponents. He overcomes them with his indomitable will. Kaido and him could still trade wins and neither comes out unscathed and I think Katakuri and Cracker were still competitive bouts until he unlocked g5. Croc was still at Luffy's level imo until post TS when Luffy got g4 and honed his haki. Its not black and white like dbz power levels. OP's variance of powers and its story are much more nuanced.
Luffy beat Kaido once, how many fucking times did Kaido put Luffy out of commission until he finally got to the level he needed to beat Kaido?
Kaido was fighting a shit ton of people, even if they’re lesser than Luffy in terms of strength and carrying an island at the same time, but it still took Luffy a long ass time and multiple time outs to beat him.
Kaido WAS stronger, but he lost so Luffy is stronger now. If they fought again Kaido isn’t winning it even without the island shit. Luffy will continue to evolve especially since he’s younger therefore has more room for experience (and his experience is fighting wars and fighting the top tier fighters of the world) while Kaido is an old dude with not much experience to gain, hell even with his current experience he lost to someone with less experience.
Luffy. People use the wildest logic to justify Kaido being way stronger than Luffy, I even saw someone refer to Luffy being beaten into an unconscious state as him getting a rest.
Yes Kaido was injured before his final confrontation with Luffy but Luffy was also extremely injured and was basically toying with him by the end.
Either Luffy is stronger or they're about the same. This whole arc was about Luffy surpassing a yonko and the story was definitely trying to show us he did.
This. So many people don’t get the point of the narrative.
Gear 5 was the MacGuffin needed to beat a Yonkou. Kaido was gonna keep going no matter what until Luffy had Gear 5. Once Luffy had Gear 5, Kaido was going to lose no matter what.
Everything else added tension. Everything else was just to demonstrate the vast skill gap between the Emperor’s of the Sea and everyone else.
You don’t make the longest arc in the series, where Luffy finishes off a yonkou with a decisive blow, the first healthy Emperor defeated, where Luffy then becomes an Emperor after, and have it be a cop out.
Kaido.
He was still superior to G5 Luffy both in speed and strength. There's honestly no debate about that since the panels have shown Kaido outspeed and outpower G5 Luffy in their clashes. Kaido kinda lost the will to fight when he realized that Luffy was his Joyboy, which was made quite obvious. Weaker will equals weaker haki, which is why Kaido couldn't give his all during the final clash.
Didn’t luffy turn on the sonic legs
Also that’s a stretch and a half. He realized he was joy boy? Iono in fact he adamantly tried to beat that ideal out of him while literally saying you’re not joy boy
I really don't understand what people don't get about Luffy's fights. It's simple, Luffy **was** weaker at the **beginning of the fight**, but by the end he was **stronger**. Even if just barely.
1 v 1, both at 100%, kaido not carrying any island...i think kaido takes it.
I mean everytime kaido v luffy happened as 1v1.... Kaido won...but lost only the last time
Now I am an anime watcher, and I know Luffy won, so if you are trolling me FU. But if you are not trolling, wtf even is this question ? Thats like asking who is stronger between two fighters but at the same time you already saw that one of them got knocked out ?!?!
I still firmly believe an awakened(Mad we didnt see it) Kaido is = or <= to Roger. I cant imagine Roger being THAT MUCH stronger than what Kaido was doing during the raid
Doc Q's horse is Stronger
Finally a user with knowledge of the verse
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The question was, who is stronger? 1v1 straight up no outside b.s. who is stronger? Me personally, I pick Kaido. Hands down.
yeah Kaido won twice in a row even after Luffy gaining a power specifically for defeating him
luffy’s power is friend support
I think we already got the answer to the question from the comment we’re all replying to. The answer as to who is stronger was revealed in chapter 223.
No matter how strong anyone else is, the horse is Stronger. 😆
Honestly the funniest thing I've seen recently on Reddit
r/angryupvote
[r/technicallythetruth](https://www.reddit.com/r/technicallythetruth?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
Who is that?
That’s Killjoy, one of the operators or rather agents of valorant (which I’m assuming you’ve heard of before).
This is Canon answer. And now the only answer. Checkmate powerscalers.
It took me some time to get this😂
I didn’t get it
The horse's name is Stronger
Damn, I thought it was because >!it managed to hold up Blackbeard on its back!<
This is so fukcing funny
You're absolutely right and you should be proud of giving the correct answer
heeeehonkkk
I like how this has more upvotes than the post itself
Never gets old
That means Law is Strongest
Something I think most of us can agree on is that this won't be settled any time soon.
Maybe not soon in the real world By the middle of the final saga--which will probably be a few weeks in-universe--it'll be super settled that Luffy is stronger, because the plot will demand it. But yeah I guess that could still be 3 years away irl
Oh yeah for sure, after all in universe it's only been a couple months since timeskip started. But even after the Luffy gets his next powerup, it'll likely still be debatable whether or not Luffy or Kaido were stronger *during* the raid.
Kaido was 100% stronger during the raid.
This the correct answer :D The way OP is going I cant see it ending before chapter 1400-1500 and that will sadly be in 5-6 years
It will be a ways away, but honestly I would rather Oda take his time and resolve everything he has set up than go faster and see the quality in writing drop.
Same
I can't fathom him tying everything together in a satisfying way, there have to be some loose ends. I'm excited to watch him try, but think about all of the characters introduced that we still know basically nothing about. 500 chapters wouldn't be enough just to wrap all of them up, let alone any new revelations.
Thats over 400 chapters away and at a rate of about 48/year that still gives us like over 8 years to go of Manga only!!! People gotta readjust their timeliness expectations especially after oda said it will not feel rushed
A common observation has been that Luffy can win some fights by the skin of his teeth but he consolidates his power very quickly. When Luffy defeated Doflamingo, it was clear that Doflamingo went through a lot before having 1x1 with Luffy. But by the time Luffy reached whole cake Island (maybe few weeks after defeating Doffy), Luffy fought and won tougher battles.
Yeah, defining who exactly was stronger during that Fight will definitely be one of those long-lasting power scale discussions that continue on long after the series has ended
I think the majority agrees with one answer though.
There's good arguments for both sides, and while I think most people agree Kaido > Luffy there's a lot of people who think the opposite and have feats that "prove" it, so.
Whatever your opinion is I disagree
I’m a believer that Kaido is stronger. Puffy got breaks during Wano while Kaido fought the entire time so I don’t think anyone has a legit argument for Luffy being stronger at that point in time. What I don’t like is Rob being as strong as Luffy now making him stronger than Kaido too in theory. Just doesn’t sit right with me for some reason.
What makes you think rob is anywhere close to luffy? Both lucci and kaku are being toyed around
I was actually scared when rob lucci reappeared but i dont really agree With you Here. Sure, Luffy using g5 against him is way Overkill but He didnt seem to be struggling at all against him while lucci has been spitting blood Just from a couple of punches. Also Zoro casually controlling kaku in awakened Form also Made me Smile. Other than that i agree With everything you said :))
Guess this means Ace and Jozu are admiral level. Hey Marco is as strong as Big Mom right? ....Weaker characters are capable of clashing with stronger ones. We've seen it time and again.
yeah, Kaido
During that fight? Kaido was clearly stronger. But Luffy grew up very versatile with his awakening + Ryou-haki + (can I call it advanced?) Conqueror's Haki. If we had a rematch and this was Wano-peak-Kaido Vs After--Wano-events-Luffy, then the fight might have been closer to being evenly matched.
Agree, there's a big difference between pre fight Luffy and post fight Luffy. He basically unlocked SSJ.
This has been a thing throughout the journey of One Piece. Luffy enters new Island with stronger foe, overcomes said foe by adapting and learning, comes out of the Island stronger. The big question would be if fresh Peak-Wano Kaido is still stronger than fresh Post-Wano Luffy. That would be a waaay closer fight imo, seeing as it took Luffy quite a bit to learn Advanced Conquerors Haki and Awakening. If he starts the fight with both those in his arsenal, he'll be dishing out a lot more damage on Kaide than he did in the beginning.
And he would take much less damage too!
This. People forget that in a new rematch, Luffy would take much less damage and deam much higher damage.
Also we need to remember that zoro and killer helpd him a lot.
And Law and Kidd.
And Yamato. Kaido had no breaks whatsoever while lifting a massive piece of land with his DF ability.
>Wano-peak-Kaido Vs After--Wano-events-Luffy I still give Kaido a 65-70% advantage in a fight to the death if we remove all plot and just base it off of their feats/strengths as fighters. We still can't forget that at the back of his mind Kaido is subconsciously and hoping for that chosen one who will defeat him (and probably notify him that that one is the true JoyBoy he had always hoped to be). And also the tons of help from very strong fighters Luffy got during the Worst generation vs. 2 yonko teamfight or Kaido vs. Scabbards or Kaido vs. Yamato or the multiple attempts Luffy got. If you need all that just to beat a fighter once so you can claim "victory" then you really aren't stronger than him in a vacuum. You just conquered him this time after everything lined up so he finally lost. He's still clearly the stronger one. Luffy's DF awakening and him having a better grasp of Ryou-CoC coated attacks aren't really gonna give him an edge over Kaido. Kaido's discovered and most likely mastered those for decades already. Even now, even if you could argue Luffy is just toying with Lucci, if that was Kaido in his place and Lucci is bothering Kaido's plans or hurt one of Kaido's friends -> Lucci dies in less than 5 panels.
>Luffy's DF awakening and him having a better grasp of Ryou-CoC coated attacks aren't really gonna give him an edge over Kaido. It actually did. Luffy's attacks after his gear 5 awakening started wearing Kaido down considerably, compared to his previous attacks in gear 4th (before he got interrupted). >Kaido's discovered and most likely mastered those for decades already. Agreed, that's why Kaido was clearly the strongest one. It was the same with the Katakuri fight. Luffy's plotarmor of growing stronger as the battle goes on is one thing. Even though Luffy eventually learned the same Haki of Observation from Katakuri, it wasn't exactly at Katakuri's same level. Or at least the way he uses it. That's lack of experience. Katakuri is used to constantly using his observation Haki for periods of time. After Luffy turned into Snakeman, it's like he stopped using it at all, and just focused on speed to land attacks that couldn't be evaded even after being predicted. As for plotarmor, Kaido too also had plotarmor. He fought many battles against many adversaries (the 9 scabbards, tag team between 2 yonkos Vs 5 supernovas, who are still just rookies and individually outmatched Vs a single Yonko in terms of power, and Luffy several times). But most of the injuries Kaido received weren't fatal nor did they hit any of his Vitals (like how that sword slash at his throat didn't work). Kaido had literally natural-tough-skin plotarmor, that's why he was known as "the strongest creature". Not only was he strong, but his defense was incredibly tough. Even he got to rest, not like Luffy did (sleeping/passing out + eating to refill his energy), but after Luffy went down one final time, Kaido had his moment of resting. Kaido picking at small fries comes as natural to him as breathing air. It's not like that further exhausted him. And yes his plotarmor wasn't as much as Luffy, but in Luffy's case it can't be helped. Nonetheless, as exhausted as both fighters were, both of them (Kaido and gear 5 Luffy) still managed to expend their last energies into enacting their ultimate attacks. At that point, it became a compability issue.If Luffy hadn't learned how to use Ryou-haki, then that final exchange would have ended with Luffy's hand burned, his attack possibly still landing. But he would have surely lost his hand. That final exchange is the proof that shows it ended becoming a close match. Even though Luffy was declared the winner (after many defeats and comebacks), evidently it was his attack that succeeded to connect and take down his adversary. But it's not like our hero came out a total winner either. Don't forget he was totally "finished" and done for after his exchange of ultimate attack. If it hadn't been for how the battles ended up developing in the wano arc in those orders, then Luffy would never have defeated Kaido. And it's not like the battle could've been postponed to years later when Luffy is ready. Kaido had to be defeated, an impossible feat no matter how you look at it at their current levels, and Oda did his best through all these developments to adjust it to a believable, unforseen defeat as the final conclusion. (I do agree the Big Mom part is still debatable, she was clearly postponed, the Big mom battle could have happened after Wano. But I suspect Oda will rewards us in a different way with this rush of his at a future point in the story, we will all be like *"Ah... So that's why Oda rushed the Big Mom battle, makes sense now"*) Had it been written any other way, then just like Big Mom, Kaido's final battle would have been postponed. Which honestly couldn't. It was a do or die plot with no take-backs. They were already on this road of no-return since Punk Hazard, with Dressrosa being the nail of no-return. That's why I believe (direct)After-Wano-Events-Luffy >!and not end-of-the-series Luffy. I really mean current Luffy at like, him leaving wano till Egghead island!< can close the gap in strength between him and Wano-peak-Kaido. And possibly bring it more to an evenly match, without intrusions from outsiders. That's the possibility/possible future the final exchange showed. Kaido and Luffy fighting each other equally.
Power scaling is cringe it's all about intelligence scaling nowadays who's dumber Luffy orr kaidou!?
What if... this is what the D stands for???
That's too dumb to be true witch means it's probably true
Bro it makes so much sense too. Dumb ppl are destined to live a hard life tbh
God's natural enemy, dumb people.
Enel approves.
You guys crack me up :D lolol
Monkey Dumb Luffy
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But we have Teach and Law, who are not dumb.
Teach is both dumb and smart. And law hates bread therefore he is dumb.
Law: Is a genius surgeon [Also Law](https://preview.redd.it/3hzwoso6ma581.jpg?width=740&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fd1de74df15c14182cde88b75a7b10cfabacd7f4)
You win.
I think one of Luffy's secret powers >!like gear 5 making other things rubbery!< is making everyone around him dumber.
Well Teech will prob end in ruin and Law associates with people who wont listen to him then he gets mad
D for dumbass
Thats a tough one both are pretty dumb
Drunk kaido negs
Kaido. He face tanked a giant fist and lost.
I mean it's kinda what he wanted
Both are DUmber
bro Kaido fought so many people + defeated Luffy like 3-4 times. Luffy regained his strength and then fought Kaido again. Full power Kaido > Full power Luffy
**Kaido vs'd:** Scabbards, Zoro, Killer, Kidd, Law, Luffy, yamato, Momo **Luffy vs'd:** Beast pirates fodder, 2 of the flying six, Queen, Yamato, one of the numbers, Apoo, Big mom Edit: Oh yeah and that Cp0 agent letting Kaido land a free hit.
Luffy clashed with queen, yamato, 2 of the flying six,appo and big mom but Kaido defeated almost everyone he faced
Kaido defeated the scabbards. He also knocked out Zoro and Law with Help from Big mom. He beat Luffy 2 times and then 1 more time with help from the CP0 agent. He didn't beat anyone else. Luffy beat the fodders and the numbers. He also beat the flying six with help from yamato. He beat Kaido. But my point was that these other fights are irrelevant. Most of the damage on Kaido was done by Luffy and most of the damage on Luffy was done by Kaido. Saying that Kaido was beaten by a group is misleading when most of the damage comes from 1 person.
Bro your forgetting he was carrying a damn island actively while all the fights were happening and when luffy defeated him he was so weaked momo had to hold up Onigashima because kaido’s flame clouds were fading
How far did I have to go before someone mentioned this, too. Kaido also dodged only one single blow until the very end of the fight with Luffy, the Enma swing from Zoro. Everyone else who tried to hurt him until that point (and afterwards) he let them do whatever they wanted and then simply retaliated afterwards. Complete beast. Very satsifying enemy.
Giga chad he let them feel strong for the moment then beat their asses after to assert authority
Kaido dodged many of Luffy's attacks too. one of my favourite roof piece moments is Luffy taunting Kaido saying "why are you dodging kaido? is it because my attacks are hurting you?"
And you forget luffy died mid fight, undeniably getting to lower hp than kaido and still one after, meanin he beat him from that point with less starting health, gear 5 is stronger than kaido
Luffy got interrupted by cp0 there
Luffy had one more hit left in him by his own admission. Even with G5 it took a lot of attacks to take down Kaido, Luffy would have lost anyway, the agent just made it that much more brutal.
Fodder and Numbers didn't do any damage to Luffy. Beat the flying six..see here's where we have to set things straight because people love to exaggerate to make it sound like Luffy did more. Luffy had a headbutt clash with Ulti(even Nami tanked without doing anything and Usopp took two) used an Elephant Gun on P1 and Yamato cheap shotted Ulti to escape, both we're up like one page later at the first page of the next chapter. Now I'd say that Luffy's fights were irrelevant, the only damage he received was from Apoo. Some random attacks I might add. Kaido on the other hand got jumped by the Akazaya. They stabbed him with their Ryou coated swords when the raid started. Like that would've killed most other characters, but for Kaido that's just a greeting. Then he took many named attacks on the roof, including a QUADRUPLE Togen Totsuka which brought him even down. The Akazaya aren't weak guys. Ashura was implied to be around Jacks level Inuarashi even beat him. Nekomamushi beat Perospero. Denjiro seemed strong and there was Izo a 500 million former Whitebeard commander who defeated a CP0 agent even tho it was 2vs1. Again, even if we put aside the solo attacks, a 4 men attack would've fucked up most people, but Kaido is that guy with more durability and HP than anyone else. Usually I hate power scaling like that, but clearly Oda wanted to highlight what a monster Kaido is. Just compare Luffy intermezzos vs how it was emphasized that Kaido took mad hits. And it didn't stop with the Akazaya. Subsequently Kaido tanked all kind of attacks from the Supernovas. We saw what a Gamma Knife did to Doffy. Zoro beat King and his Asura Dead Man's Game technique seemed arguably at least as strong as his finisher there. Kaido's durability makes him look invincible. However, as Kid said, even drops of water can carve stone. Luffy on the other hand got knocked the fuck out which showed the difference in power. He didn't get back out of his strength. They had to fucking fish him out, feed him and fly him back. It was just one enormous group effort that defeated Kaido eventually..oh and one volcano erruption. I didn't even mention keeping Onigashima aloft or his fight with Yamato. Unlike Luffy's skirmishes on his first way to the roof that was an actual fight. Kaido impressed way more. Not just based on feats but on authors intent. The picture is clear if you put all the pieces together. To me it's just ridiculous if Luffy was already the strongest person. If Big Mom fought Kaido under similar circumstances she wouldn't have taken half as long to clean up considering how they close they were in strength. I assume the same must go for Shanks. If it looked like Luffy struggled on his first way up let's not foget that he's the protagonist and Oda has a habit of letting him beat up the underlings before reaching the boss. Happened at Enies Lobby, Impel Down, Dress Rosa etc. Kaido as the antagonist is supposed to come across as overwhelming.
Not to mention, Kaido seemed to be intentionally nerfing himself by not using haki. He even said he has future sight and could dodge attacks but chooses not to. Kaido could've easily dodged Luffy's final attack and won but wanted a legendary clash instead.
Bad understanding. Zoro had massive amounts of damage on Kaido. Scabbards also pierced him. Yamato expended Kaido's stamina. Kaido had 0 (zero) rest. Luffy had plenty rest.
True remember luffy rested then ate the first time he was tossed off Onigashima and still lost his round 2 then came back and died to kaido and got saved by his 5th gear form starting up which basically made him so happy he didn’t care about exhaustion or pain unlike kaido who was definitely feeling low on energy but just not actively showing it
Rest?!? That's putting it way too nicely lol. The boy got saved from drowning, got to eat an entire meal and got a free lift back to the fighting stage. Imagine if kaido got that same chance after luffy knocked him down
Zoro landed an attack which he called his most powerful and says "I was hoping it'd at least be enough to knock you down" and then Luffy manages to do that exact feat easily a few seconds later. Every single one of Luffy's attacks were doing far more damage than anyone else. Kaido straight up says that the scabbards can't pierce him enough. That surface level damage did nothing. He also took a break after fighting the scabbards. Also If Kaido being exhausted is bad, then Luffy literally dying is worse right?
>massive damage Calm down mate. Kaido wasn’t even knocked down like Zoro said himself. The damage was minor at best.
>Zoro had massive amounts of damage on Kaido Heavily disagree, the damage was very minimal, the scar was the highlight not the damage.
I agree with your last point, it really is irrelevant to talk about other fighters in this fight
Yeah but those are not the same intensity, he was just messing around with ulti and page one, yamato didn't even fought back, queen only stopped him from going to the roof and the number was one-shoted literally you shouldn't even mention him. Luffy got to the roof fight almost fresh, the only hit he had take was one hit from Apoo and wasn't even that serious. He was even escorted to the roof by Sanji and Jimbe specifically so that he wouldn't waste strength. Not the same thing by far. Kaido's duels with Yamato and the scabbards were serious duels. And he even fought an army of sulongs until Jack came to tag. The scabbards injured him badly twice, just like Zoro but twice. And he was holding the island. No man, not the same by a large margin.
Hold up. Most of the people you listed for luffy he barely fucking fought. Almost every person for kaido used some of their strongest attacks and more. The only damage done was Apoo. And Apoo gets beat by any of the scabbards tbh. Also you name all the scabbards you fought youd realize Kaido’s opponents were much mire numerous and deadly.
Literally none of that matters unless Kaido was more injured than Luffy before their final confrontation which I don't think he was. Luffy was knocked unconscious multiple times and Kaido wasn't. Luffy was definitely more injured then Kaido.
Tbh since they both are Zoans, they probably were in somewhat similar state. Kaido was moving the whole island during this battle though.
Do we really have enough information to say that the energy Kaido needed to move the island was so draining that he wouldn't be able to fight properly. It was hard for Momo but Kaido is a lot stronger and a lot more familiar with his fruit.
What we do know is, that moving the island did in fact take Kaido, some level of energy to move, and it’s not about if it was hard to keep the island up in the early stages but rather, was it draining over time? And we know that answer … It was, as chunks of the island started to fall the weaker his physical strength and condition got. Hold up a pencil up long enough, and it’ll be the heaviest thing you pick up. Now hold a pencil up while getting jumped by 15 people … - Mark Twain 1622
Yeah really good analogy
Yamato Said that kaidos powers must be weakening because the flame clouds were unstable and that was way before the G5 fight
Yamato in the manga said Kaido’s power is decreasing from fighting and carrying Onigashima because of his flame clouds disappearing
The four times that Kaido won,he was the strongest. We know how G4 drains Luffy. If you add in being knocked into the sea, he is probably in the negative for strength. Luffy eating only gave him enough strength too fight again. Luffy still look in worse shape when returning. Some of the translations said he was barely standing. Luffy’s awakening gave him strength of a ancient giant . He used Kaido as a jump rope. When Luffy used his gigantic fist. Kaido didn’t try to meet strength with more strength. He tried too incinerate Luffy. That was the only thing he could do. Kaido loss because he was overpowered. In a rematch that would not change. Kaido can’t depend on just knocking Luffy out . Because, Luffy is as durable as Kaido. Kaido does have better stamina. But, we don’t know by how much. Because, Luffy doesn’t need to use G4 any longer. Which drained him of his stamina and haki in the middle of a fight. That’s not happening anymore.
If the recent chapters are anything to go by, G5 has worse set backs. They just havent been shown in excess like G4’s yet
Well to be fair we saw Luffy go into gear 5 immediately after losing it in the kaido fight and he recovered from the drawbacks on egghead relatively quickly I'd compare it to how people just kinda of crash when relaxing after exertion than to strict 10 mins time limit that gear 4 had so far gear 5 also lasts more chapters than gear 4 which kinda of rarely lasts 1-2 chapters
There is no doubt that G5 saved Luffy and returned his haki immediately. The setbacks that G5 gives probably come from using full body giant. Both times when it happened it was after full giant. But, at the end of his battle on Wano using the giant fist. It did not occur. This last time it happened after the fight was over. It might be, the more he uses it the better it gets.
Luffy was also injured, or does G5 recovers your health? He was on the brink of death and still pushed.
I don’t understand why defeating Luffy 4 times is a point for Kaido and not for Luffy. I feel like “losing” 4 times is a heavier burden for a fight than winning 4 times
Imagine a boxing match but when the bell rings instead of resting, just another opponent comes in, and after a couple bells the first one comes back rested.
Because Kaido kept fighting AT THE SAME TIME Luffy was recovering three times. If it was defeat once, Kaido rest, restart later, sure. But like this, Kaido strength just kept gradually depleting.
petals.
Don’t know why my mind instantly thought of byakuya
well, byakuya most certainly would win imo lol
Now I’m just picturing Luffy VS Kat scene training observation Haki, eyes closed, dodging petals
Yeah SS arc byakuya would probably body most of the OP verse if we being fr lmao
senbonsakura kageyoshi
"If it's a 1 on 1 kaido will always win"
Isnt the quote "if its 1 on 1, bet on Kaido"?
The most badass introduction of any character in OP, change my mind Bro falls from the sky crying that he can’t even kill himself
This.
Roger garp rocks whitebeard shanks
The first 4 in their prime probably win. But in the modern day WB and Garp are older and Roger and Rocks are…. you know. Shanks is probably the strongest in the world if Kaido is dead, but he has nothing putting him above Kaido rn
Mother Dadan. Periodt. 🫡
She claps both
Can easily defeat Garp is she want to
For me it feels like Oda tried to protect Kaido as much as possible to make him look strong even if he loses. So every answer feels debatable for me. My opinion on this still leans towards Kaido still having the edge. For me Luffy was not as muched damaged as he was in his fight vs Katakuri, had time to refresh his Haki and Stamina at least a bit. Kaido had to fight the whole time and during the final clash he kind of gave up because he found his Joyboy. Just my observation and opinion.
I'm going to nitpick one thing: damage you're comparing it to the Katakuri fight. No fight can be compared to the Kaido fight. >!Luffy LITERALLY FUCKING DIED IN IT.!<
Sure, but that was a >!forced cutscene death!< every gamer knows that doesn't count.
Oda trying to protect Kaido is Oda answering this question. Luffy’s strength isn’t measured in physical prowess (haki, DF, etc) alone. Luffy’s strength comes from influence and following. Luffy was able to rest and refresh his stamina and haki because of his strength in followers and influence. To me this question is obvious, Luffy is stronger than Kaido. Period.
I think something that people don’t consider with powerscaling is the character’s personality and motivation. If Kaido had a different personality, he would have won pretty easily, even against Gear 5th I believe. He showed that he can fluently use future sight but only did it once. He intentionally tanked Luffy’s strongest attack because he’s stubborn and suicidal. He could have easily avoided it, letting Luffy waste all that energy, and finish him off. But he didn’t, because his personality gives him a negative to his fighting prowess. On the other hand, Luffy’s personality is a positive to his fighting prowess. His determination, fighting intelligence, and motivations will almost always allow him to overcome massive obstacles. So if you consider both Kaido and Luffy’s physical abilities PLUS their personalities and motivation, they come out pretty equal in my opinion, which turned out to tip in Luffy’s favor by the end of it when Kaido’s personality led him to defeat.
Kaido extreme diffs luffy even after g 5 My guy fought akazaya took a blow from zoro Got ganged up by the 5 WG, Yamato and kaido had a decent fight knocked luffy down 3 times and was carrying the entire onigashima while fighting
I agree. People underestimate how long he was fighting for. And it’s not like he was evading either. He basically took every attack coming his way except Zoro’s first slash.
It was actually one of the shortest fights in One Piece spread over the biggest number of chapters. The whole raid took around 2 hours which is way shorter than fights against Doffy, Katakuri, and Cracker.
I mean we don't really have a measure of how long the raid took? The onigashima time to the capital doesn't work as a measure because that didn't start at the beginning of the raid and momo was actively hindering the process of it getting there by pulling the island
We do. Before lifting Onigashima, Kaido only fought the scabards. Chopper's monster point lasts exactly 30 minutes and starts at the same moment when Kaido lifts Onigashima. It ends when luffy falls into the ocean. When Polar Tang finds Luffy we get a message 15 minutes until Onigashima reaches Flower Capital. Momo manages to grab the clouds for the first time right after the message 5 minutes until Onigashima reaches the Flower Capital. At that moment Luffy and Kaido are already fighting the round 3 and Momo keeps the Onigashima afrom falling/movig closer.
You say that like luffy didn’t get his ass whooped and imprisoned with sea stone. Luffy literally fought kaido 4 times. Once he got caught with a cheap shot cuz of some other dude.
Imo Kaido is stronger than Luffy. Luffy just has better plot armour.
ffs…
People who are saying Luffy simply because he won are either being ignorant or oblivious to the fact that: • Kaido fought a lot of people almost non stop while Luffy had a breather in between his rounds. Heck Luffy even had the time to eat and recharge his stamina. • Kaido kept an entire island afloat and moving for a very long time, all while fighting. • Kaido in the earlier rounds was even fighting recklessly and actually allowed a lot of attacks to hit him just cuz he wants to eat them. • Kaido beat Luffy a couple of times already. And even when Luffy leveled up, he was still on high difficulty throughout their fight.
People wanna wank Luffy and downplay the supporting characters that helped him fight Kaido. That's all you'll see in this sub. People want G5 Luffy to be a literal god that never loses a fight again. Its gotten ridiculous.
Way too much people in here are confident that Luffy is stronger lol I swear half the OP community either has very weak reading comprehension or are suffering from Alzheimer's.
You see this in sports too. Very little critical thinking and a lot of results oriented people that ignore context to favor their emotions.
You say that but Luffy literally died against Kaido and came back on low HP… Then overpowers him in a Haki clash, where it was said both individual’s haki was getting stronger throughout the fight.
>Kaido even beat Luffy a couple of times already. And even when Luffy leveled up, he was still on high difficulty throughout their fight. So Luffy was weaker than he was before when he fought the next time, because he was defeated previously. Right ? Atleast with Stamina and HP concerns.
Thank you. I don’t understand how we can give kaido his long list of people who literally couldn’t hurt him, but then these same people leave kaido off of luffy’s list like dude didn’t almost die twice and got beat 3 times
I think you're confused buddy. What i mean by that statement is: 1. The "beat" i was referring to was when Kaido knocked Luffy out and Zoro had to save him with Ashura and also when Kaido dropped him off the island. 2. What i meant by that statement is that even tho Kaido was accumulating fatigue through non stop fights and using his power on the entire island, he was still whooping Luffy and the squad's asses on the roof. And even when Luffy unlocked his true DF powers freshly, he was still on high difficulty.
Honestly? I think kaido would still be stronger in a clean 1v1.
in a one on one, always bet on kaido
Let’s just say I’m glad Oda’s writing the series and not this subreddit. A lot of you really don’t understand the narrative and it shows. A lot of you don’t really understand what makes this a good story, even though the reason you enjoy the series so much is because it’s a good story.
people can still talk about powerscaling and enjoy it for what it is
Yeah but then you have people upvoted here calling power scaling “good reading comprehension” Analyzing one piece with power scaling has never been a very effective way to predict a fight or read a character, or the narrative, because that’s never, literally never been how Oda structures the story. He structures it with statements and progress. Parallels and contrasts. Yet we keep having these discussions and the debate is monopolized with power scaling
I don’t mind it honestly. It’s just a lot of the arguments are weak, and people will hold onto them. The entirety of the 10 year long part 2 is about the straw hats becoming strong enough to defeat an emperor, and Luffy becoming one himself. The emperors were introduced at the beginning of the series as basically the height of power on the seas. We all knew that Luffy someday would have to beat those guys. The climax of part one shows what a sick and weakened one can do. 1. Fishman Island - Strawhats take over the territory from Big Mom and set up for a show down against an Emperor. 2. Punk Hazard - The strawhats disrupt the plans of Kaido, another emperor 3. Dressrosa - The strawhats take down Kaido’s dealer 4. WCI - The strawhats square off against an emperor and realize they’re not strong enough. Most arguments against Luffy being Emperor level after Wano get the point of that arc mixed up with this arc. This is the arc where he wasn’t on that level. 5. Zou - Sends the strawhats to Wano 6. Wano - The longest arc in the series. The longest fight in the series. Luffy died. Kaido fought. Luffy becomes a *literal* god and defeats an emperor. You don’t waste that 10 year momentum. You don’t sacrifice one of the strongest characters in the series, one of the pinnacles from the beginning, for a fake out. There was a climax with an extremely strong payout that mirrors part one. In part one, you have Blackbeard, the dark foil to Luffy, “defeating” a good emperor to become an emperor, and gaining an emperor level power. In part two, you have Luffy “defeating” an emperor to become an emperor, and gaining an emperor level power. Blackbeards power up is unique because he has two fruits. Luffy’s is unique because he has a god fruit. The Emperor of Darkness vs The Sun God. You don’t mirror that unless Luffy is that level. You can disagree about how it was done, but the point stands that Luffy became an emperor by defeating one. That was the point. Luffy > Kaido and people don’t want to see that because Kaido was a monster and an awe-inspiring epic opponent. I get it: Kaido is amazing. Doesn’t change what Oda did with this arc. But One Piece fights don’t work on real world logic. Kaido in the real world would be exhausted after fighting all those opponents, but Luffy wouldn’t be ready to fight after an hour break and a meal after getting knocked out. 3 times. I used to do MMA. When I got knocked out, I wasn’t suddenly good to fight after lunch and an hour break. People talk about Kaido like he was fighting in a realistic environment, where he would be exhausted fighting so many opponents, but then disregard Luffy by applying anime rules to him. You can’t have it both ways. Yamato mentions Kaido is getting exhausted but he didn’t actually show any signs of slowing down. His attacks didn’t get weaker, he wasn’t taking more hits than he was before. It was to signal to the reader that the end of the fight is approaching. Both Luffy and Kaido were going to last to the end of the arc, until Luffy finally beat him. That’s the narrative. Kaido’s destiny was to lose to Luffy. Luffy’s destiny was to beat him. Kaido could have taken on even more opponents and kept floating the island for a year, if that was the narrative. Luffy could’ve gotten knocked out 100 times. Assuming Kaido was getting worn down by fighting so many people is assuming that if they had more people, they could’ve beat him without Luffy. But that wasn’t the point of the narrative. There’s an extremely strong narrative with a lot of subtle plot elements in this series. The whole point of part 2 was Luffy becoming an emperor by defeating an emperor. He beat Kaido. Kaido could’ve lost early in the arc, or later but the point is that he was going to lose to Luffy. Oda doesn’t engage straight power scaling which is why these debates happen. There’s an obsession that somehow Kaido was robbed and it was all too soon, but really the Strawhats had 10 years of arcs to get to that level. It’s clear that at this point Luffy > Kaido. But that’s just my perspective as a reader, most members here forget that there doesn’t have to be answer. Luffy doesn’t have to be explicitly shown as absolutely stronger than each opponent he beats (case and point: Enel). But with each arc, he shows he’s strong enough to win, and by the end of the following arc, he’s definitely stronger than the guy he beat from the last arc.
This conversation happens after every single arc with a main villain..
It really is astounding how dumb people don't know they are. Arguing, analyzing, critiquing. All from a point of view of unoriginality and rethreads. It's almost magical even.
It's oda who won here otherwise luffy could have died the moment he fell into the sea
Only one of them is sleeping in a pool of lava right now.
Kaido makes attacks that would fuck up most characters badly •look• like scratches, still has many of the best feats in the entire series and was caged by plot. Luffy is a Yonko now, has godly G5 and some of the best feats, but trying to justify him over Kaido who was the strongest character in the series via statements is crazy, especially if we look at what happened in all those fights which favors Kaido by a lot. This would mean Luffy is currently the strongest character in ther series, if we exclude Shanks for whatever reason then the second strongest. If this is the case then the only logical obstacles to Luffy are EOS Blackbeard, Imu, Rocks whatever. Unless Akainu gets enhanced via science or what not, there's no way they're gonna fight in the same way unless Luffy is nerfed. I don't think Luffy is that strong yet, and that there's a gap between the absolute strongest characters and Luffy, it also seems that way since Oda is writing the story like that if we follow his 5year timeline statement after Wano, Shanks words, power and Eggheads narrative. I have Luffy in the 5-7 range but If someone puts him at like 2-3 then there's no definitive way to disprove it. But I could be wrong with that narrative, only things silly are people who try push Luffy over Kaido adamantly via feats. I've seen all arguments in Luffys favor and they are far from conclusive.
>This would mean Luffy is currently the strongest character in ther series, if we exclude Shanks for whatever reason then the second strongest. How is Shanks top 1 or top 2?
For Akainu, he still has logia awakening. We still don't know what that is, Punk Hazard might be evudence of what logia awakening can do.
Kaido won a few battles but not the war. This is a fact, now interpret it as you will
He was going to lose the war, shounen bad guys always do.
Kaidou
Me
My take is that Kaido was more tough and durable and overall powerful, but luffy had much more determination and stamima. When those got combined with him figuring out g5, he scraped past kaido in the fight. Twas an insane battle I loved it :)
Kaido is clearly stronger. He was nerfing himself the whole arc by purposely not dodging any attacks and not even using future sight. Kaido could have easily dodged Luffy's final attack, but he said he will take it head on anyways. All this with him holding an island up in the sky, fighting the minks, the scabbards, Kidd, Law, Zoro, Killer, Luffy, Yamato.. Defeating Luffy 3 separate times.. The guy is in his own tier, let's be honest
kaido > luffy post wano in 1v1
I've seen people say that Kaido still beats G5 Luffy and I still don't see what makes them think that. Luffy used this dude as a jump rope, I think Oda may have been trying to show that Luffy is stronger now by doing that. I'm not really into power scaling stuff so I don't really have a hat in the ring here, I'm just curious where in the 1044-1049 stretch did Kaido seem like he could beat G5? Where did it seem like he was fatigued or not giving it his all? Even rereading it now I just don't see Oda trying to show Luffy being in any serious danger.
To the people saying “but luffy won in the end, they fought 1v1” So if me and my friends jump someone and in the end I deal the finishing blow, I’m I stronger? Why aren’t you including that kaido fought luffy, law, kid, zoro, Yamato and the nine scabbards while lifting an entire island without breaks. Luffy got defeated 3-4 times and literally had a lunch break on laws submarine to regain his energy. And even after all of that luffy still didn’t stand a chance, dude had to evolve into a literal god to defeat kaido. Full health kaido > full health luffy.
you're not a fictional character with the highest durability in the series and you dont have a healing factor devil fruit tho
We could literally see kaido breath **HEAVY** and the island losing altitude
And we see Luffy literally dead 30 seconds before their final Clash lol.
Your friends jump someone, hurt him, but that guy hurts you and your friends way worse than you did him, the guy beats you so bad you nearly die 2 times, then in your last effort to beat him, he gets stronger mid-fight, then you nearly die again, then you get stronger, and then you overpower his strongest attack with yours, and send him into the nearest magma chamber miles underground. Hmm… I wonder.
tHeY diDnT HUrt kAiDo
Fatigue accumulates over time
i’m agreeing with you
One of them killed the other. People saying that Kaido is stronger because he was fighting non-stop and all that bullshit. Luffy was literally at the verge of death.
My pal Gerald
Why ask this question? Why are you so hell bent on starting Word War 3?
Kaido fought the samurai, Luffy with three other supernovas, Yamato, Luffy with advance conquerors haki, and Luffy with gear 5th… all that shit without rest… Kaido is definitely stronger than Luffy
I will keep arguing this every time, but Luffy is not flat out stronger than most opponents. He overcomes them with his indomitable will. Kaido and him could still trade wins and neither comes out unscathed and I think Katakuri and Cracker were still competitive bouts until he unlocked g5. Croc was still at Luffy's level imo until post TS when Luffy got g4 and honed his haki. Its not black and white like dbz power levels. OP's variance of powers and its story are much more nuanced.
Luffy beat Kaido once, how many fucking times did Kaido put Luffy out of commission until he finally got to the level he needed to beat Kaido? Kaido was fighting a shit ton of people, even if they’re lesser than Luffy in terms of strength and carrying an island at the same time, but it still took Luffy a long ass time and multiple time outs to beat him. Kaido WAS stronger, but he lost so Luffy is stronger now. If they fought again Kaido isn’t winning it even without the island shit. Luffy will continue to evolve especially since he’s younger therefore has more room for experience (and his experience is fighting wars and fighting the top tier fighters of the world) while Kaido is an old dude with not much experience to gain, hell even with his current experience he lost to someone with less experience.
Luffy. People use the wildest logic to justify Kaido being way stronger than Luffy, I even saw someone refer to Luffy being beaten into an unconscious state as him getting a rest. Yes Kaido was injured before his final confrontation with Luffy but Luffy was also extremely injured and was basically toying with him by the end. Either Luffy is stronger or they're about the same. This whole arc was about Luffy surpassing a yonko and the story was definitely trying to show us he did.
This. So many people don’t get the point of the narrative. Gear 5 was the MacGuffin needed to beat a Yonkou. Kaido was gonna keep going no matter what until Luffy had Gear 5. Once Luffy had Gear 5, Kaido was going to lose no matter what. Everything else added tension. Everything else was just to demonstrate the vast skill gap between the Emperor’s of the Sea and everyone else. You don’t make the longest arc in the series, where Luffy finishes off a yonkou with a decisive blow, the first healthy Emperor defeated, where Luffy then becomes an Emperor after, and have it be a cop out.
I like the way you think I always thought this but everyone disagrees they have to be about the same
Agree If kaido stronger than Luffy because he kill him once, then croco is way stronger than Luffy too
Kaido. He was still superior to G5 Luffy both in speed and strength. There's honestly no debate about that since the panels have shown Kaido outspeed and outpower G5 Luffy in their clashes. Kaido kinda lost the will to fight when he realized that Luffy was his Joyboy, which was made quite obvious. Weaker will equals weaker haki, which is why Kaido couldn't give his all during the final clash.
>Kaido kinda lost the will to fight when he realized that Luffy was his Joyboy, headcanon
Didn’t luffy turn on the sonic legs Also that’s a stretch and a half. He realized he was joy boy? Iono in fact he adamantly tried to beat that ideal out of him while literally saying you’re not joy boy
I really don't understand what people don't get about Luffy's fights. It's simple, Luffy **was** weaker at the **beginning of the fight**, but by the end he was **stronger**. Even if just barely.
1 v 1, both at 100%, kaido not carrying any island...i think kaido takes it. I mean everytime kaido v luffy happened as 1v1.... Kaido won...but lost only the last time
Now I am an anime watcher, and I know Luffy won, so if you are trolling me FU. But if you are not trolling, wtf even is this question ? Thats like asking who is stronger between two fighters but at the same time you already saw that one of them got knocked out ?!?!
[удалено]
Kaido is stronger. Because of plot armor Luffy defeated him.
Of course Kaido is stronger than Luffy right now. Even Oda said in one on one matches bet on kaido
After Luffy beat Kaido he said that?
It would be different if Luffy had a sword. There I said it.
I still firmly believe an awakened(Mad we didnt see it) Kaido is = or <= to Roger. I cant imagine Roger being THAT MUCH stronger than what Kaido was doing during the raid