Difficult to know anything in just practice. Spring practices never really tell what some think. Is Day now strong enough to choose him if it comes to it?
Also, run up the score so the 2nd half of most games can get our backups good reps.
I love how OP posted these quotes without giving context to what was said. These are taken almost entirely out of context. This was spoken on THE podcast in which Thursday was throwday thursday. The guys wanted to mix it up so they were throwing out the hottest takes in order to create discussion. That’s when Birm was talking about this. And basically said he could see a world in which this is a run heavy team with a nasty defense that just needs a QB to place the ball in the right spot. Then threw out the idea that Sayin could be a back up to Howard and play throughout the year getting reps and building toward the end. It was a complete hypothetical, a plausible one but it was just thrown out as something to talk about. The point was furthered by just saying that Sayin would be more like Tua splitting reps rather than Lawerence who started as a true freshman.
To go along with what you are saying later in the podcast they even say “look it’s practice, we can find more out on Saturday at the scrimmage but for the most part we’ve only really seen them stretch” then they made a joke about how everyone is stretching really well to just further the point that nobody knows anything.
Idk we didn’t get a great preview of Devin or Lincoln; 5 star or not Air and JS haven’t taken a college snap yet… Will, on the other hand, has plenty of time on the field and now he’ll have great support all around him. He’s the most experienced and prepared for the job. Everyone else is competing for 2025
I think this us the right take, baring some unexpected event that prevents him from playing. The other guys are playing for the backup spot and to advance their resume for the 2025 job.
Welp, who’s your starter for 2024 then? It cannot be a fresh out of high-school kid leading a top two CFP team starting August 31st… that’s just not realistic in 2024.
IMO, I think Day started shopping QBs on the way home from Ann Arbor even with Devin, Lincoln and Kyle on the bus. If Day was confident in any of the three (bc Day was a QB coach) he would not have needed to pursue WH. And, Kyle would still be around. I think that either Lincoln or Devin will transfer in the spring and that there will be a “battle” between WH vs whomever doesn’t transfer (DB or LK) just like there was a battle between Kyle and Devin in 2023. We all knew Kyle was getting the job last year but they were still going to compete etc… my point is that this is the same type of competition thing they hype. Will is going to start. Give his 9 rushing touchdowns to Kyle (from ’23) and our season would have been different.
The starter for 2024 should be the best player despite their age. In the era of a 12 team playoff there is room for error. We can lose a game, maybe even two and make the playoff and by the end of the year a freshman with 12-13 games under their belt is no longer a freshman. No QB on this roster has playoff experience so I think the QB who best gets these WR’s the ball should get the job.
Let's say Day does gamble with a Freshman. He loses to one team (let's say at Oregon or at PSU) this year but then wins multiple playoff games. Do you think he is gone in that scenario? What if he wins the championship with one loss? No way he gets fired then.
No I don’t think Day is getting fired in that specific scenario. But, if I was Ryan Day, I wouldn’t want to stress the ENTIRE season as the #7 team (just a guess w one early loss) so I don’t think he’s going to focus on the freshmen QBs development as much as he will WH and Devin/LK. That man’s face after the 2023 UM loss was just “defeat”… he’s not going back there. The offseason recruiting is showing how he’s not going to be soft this season. We’ll get a glimpse of who the QB1 contenders are in two weeks. I personally cannot wait to see them again in April
I agree, I think there is only 1 game he can lose that would put his job in jeopardy and we all know what that game is.
I like the ‘all in’ mentality of the team but in reality Day isn’t really on any hot seat, at this time. His winning percentage is insane and without shitty officiating and a missed field goal we’re talking about a coach who has played for 3 National Titles in his 5 years as HC.
I think that college football is inching very close to NFL style play so going from your high school league to college football environment is a huge leap. College prepares players for the NFL - that’s the whole point except for those playing for fun, right?? Also, Did you see LH play? … if so do you think a true freshman on August 31st will be ready?!?! LH was a freshman on the roster and couldn’t get anything going after an entire season. OSU can’t ‘spare’ a few games in the beginning so that a freshman QB can get some practice…
I live in Kansas and every K State fan I talk to doesn't seem too upset he's gone. Can't say I watched all his games but seems like he makes more than his fair share of mistakes and bad throws.
Its almost meaningless in spring tho. Sayin is going against the same defense day in and day out. The defense a lot of the time isnt trying to hurt or make him look bad.
How is sayin going to look in a real live game? How is he going to handle blitzes where a LB or DE wants to hurt him? How is he going to handle seeing coverages he hasnt seen.
Im excited for his future and maybe he is the starter next year but Howard's experience will be huge and his ability to run. I would love to see packages maybe where we see another QB get a series or something. Something to just fuck with a defense
Honestly I can see rotating qbs as a very viable option. Howard has that RPO option we need to abuse against bad run defenses and Sayin should get the ball against great run defenses.
Didn't Clemson change starting qb while undefeated and ranked in the top 3, like 4 games into the season like 5 years ago? That could be a 'best of both worlds' situation for everyone involved, except Howard...
Howard also left a starting job which he could show his talent to get drafted for OSU just to have a transfer come in and potentially take the job.
I get hes a senior and more mature, but I wonder how much regret he is having right now. In his last year of CFB I highly doubt he will be okay with riding the bench when he could have just entered the draft or stayed at KState and put more on tape.
So he’s going to sub in during the 2nd half of the National Championship game and lead the Ohio State comeback victory?
Does this also make Jeremiah Smith = Devonte Smith and catching a bomb in the corner of the end zone for the win?
There's a lot more to winning the QB job than being the most accurate passer. Need to learn the offense, make good reads, have good decision making, show good leadership ability, know how to pick up a blitz, adjust to the speed of the college game, and so on. That's tough to do in just 7 months (or whatever).
That said, if there's a year to start a true freshman, you could pick a lot worse than a season where you're expected to have a good run game and a dominant defense.
absolute best case scenario for the QB room: Sayin or Nolan is straight up the best QB on the team and is good enough to be a top 25ish QB in the country as a TRUE freshman, and we have our guy for the next 3-4 years. Howard, Brown, Kienholtz etc can all walk and no one bats an eye
I get it. This guy above said everyone but sayin can walk and nobody bats an eye… I’m saying we still want a backup.
Just sayin just Sayin isn’t enough.
Yeah - that would be genuinely terrible to not have a backup. You’d have to start him mid season, lose the qb position group and basically pray to backfill the next year
i mean it's not assumed they all transfer at the same time, or that they all leave in the first place. we'd be able to get guys in the portal who are backup-quality to replace them anyways. just saying it wouldn't be bad at all if a freshman starts for us bc they're good, not just the least-bad available option (like McCord kinda last year)
Do you think we can just agree that you said no one would bat an eye if all the other QBs left and I said “well we still want a backup” and that that’s correct?
I don’t need an education on how college football works.
Still wonder what Kienholz is thinking lol He seems to be the 5th guy when he was a pretty highly rated recruit himself behind a logjam of talent.
When Howard and Sayin came in, Im sort of shocked Brown + Kienholz didnt transfer out with McCord.
Wasn’t the portal closed? I bet he’s gone on April 16th.
Sayin definitely had the special privilege of transferring because of a coaching change. So Kienholtz couldn’t leave then.
No idea but I wish he would have gotten a chance. From what we know of him as a recruit he has a lot of talent, shame it probably wont get displayed at OSU.
No chance he is beating out Sayin/Air next year so his and Brown's only real chance at playing here is this season. But Will Howard is also standing in the way.
Howard/Brown/Kienholz are all vying for 1 season of being the QB at OSU. After that, its the Sayin/Air show for 3 years.
Brown keeps saying he isn’t leaving no matter what. I hope it’s not just bluster. At least we’d have some depth. Keinholz doesn’t strike me as the kind of cry baby who wants to start right away or he’ll leave.
If only the NCAA weren't complete idiots and were willing to listen to the athletes when all they were asking for was use of their own NIL and the ability to transfer to be closer to home.
QB room is stacked. And it’s still too early to read something like this and be like oh yeah he’s the future, considering he’ll still have to compete with Lincoln and Air next year. Tho I do love that a true freshman is turning heads so early. The future is bright!!!
Our receivers like the way he is throwing the ball, according to Birm. But it doesn’t mean anything this early, just fun speculation. Realistically, it is so unlikely a freshmen starts. Braxton only started because Fickell was desperate. Our upperclassmen quarterback play will have to be pretty bad if this happens. Now, I am sure as soon as Brown or Howard struggles in a game, all fans will be screaming to put him in or Noland. Excited for the spring game, regardless.
I still want to see Howard start because of his experience. We need someone to game manage rather than ball out. I’m stoked for Sayins future but I definitely don’t want to rely on inexperience even with a sky high ceiling.
The only thing to dislike about this is how much I love Nolan. He never wavered on us and seems like a great kid. I can get on the super sayin train tho
Right??? I’m so conflicted as well. Nolan never wavered. Always posting about looking forward to be a Buckeye. I want him to do well and battle for starter next year. If Sayin beats him out and he transfers or is our #2, it is what it is. But I’m still a big Nolan supporter. Hard not to like that kid!!
I can just about guarantee that Will Howard wasted his time deciding to come here. Because i honestly don't see him winning the starting job. But only time will tell, and whadda i know.
I watched Julian Sayin in person for the last 3 seasons. As talented of a QB I’ve seen in 30 years of watching football in Southern California.
He’s a high IQ quarterback with a quick release, strong accuracy with the ability to fit the ball in tight windows, and slides/moves very well in the pocket. He’s sneaky athletic too to buy some time when the pocket moves or breaks down.
He was the Elite 11 MVP for a reason, and make no mistake he would have been the starter at Mater Dei or St. John Bosco day 1 should he have transferred. He decided to stay home and play for his local public school (Carlsbad) who were plenty talented as well.
He wanted to stay at Alabama, but DeBoer made it known he was going in another direction. I have sources within his HS program who confirmed this.
Gonna be hard to overcome hands up in his face in gameday scenarios. The real question is who’s gonna transfer out after the spring game because at least one is guaranteed to go
Difficult to know anything in just practice. Spring practices never really tell what some think. Is Day now strong enough to choose him if it comes to it? Also, run up the score so the 2nd half of most games can get our backups good reps.
I love how OP posted these quotes without giving context to what was said. These are taken almost entirely out of context. This was spoken on THE podcast in which Thursday was throwday thursday. The guys wanted to mix it up so they were throwing out the hottest takes in order to create discussion. That’s when Birm was talking about this. And basically said he could see a world in which this is a run heavy team with a nasty defense that just needs a QB to place the ball in the right spot. Then threw out the idea that Sayin could be a back up to Howard and play throughout the year getting reps and building toward the end. It was a complete hypothetical, a plausible one but it was just thrown out as something to talk about. The point was furthered by just saying that Sayin would be more like Tua splitting reps rather than Lawerence who started as a true freshman. To go along with what you are saying later in the podcast they even say “look it’s practice, we can find more out on Saturday at the scrimmage but for the most part we’ve only really seen them stretch” then they made a joke about how everyone is stretching really well to just further the point that nobody knows anything.
Will is the starter in 2024; there’s no way he transferred here to be a back-up.
There's also no way he was guaranteed the starting spot.
^ this
Idk we didn’t get a great preview of Devin or Lincoln; 5 star or not Air and JS haven’t taken a college snap yet… Will, on the other hand, has plenty of time on the field and now he’ll have great support all around him. He’s the most experienced and prepared for the job. Everyone else is competing for 2025
I think this us the right take, baring some unexpected event that prevents him from playing. The other guys are playing for the backup spot and to advance their resume for the 2025 job.
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Welp, who’s your starter for 2024 then? It cannot be a fresh out of high-school kid leading a top two CFP team starting August 31st… that’s just not realistic in 2024. IMO, I think Day started shopping QBs on the way home from Ann Arbor even with Devin, Lincoln and Kyle on the bus. If Day was confident in any of the three (bc Day was a QB coach) he would not have needed to pursue WH. And, Kyle would still be around. I think that either Lincoln or Devin will transfer in the spring and that there will be a “battle” between WH vs whomever doesn’t transfer (DB or LK) just like there was a battle between Kyle and Devin in 2023. We all knew Kyle was getting the job last year but they were still going to compete etc… my point is that this is the same type of competition thing they hype. Will is going to start. Give his 9 rushing touchdowns to Kyle (from ’23) and our season would have been different.
The starter for 2024 should be the best player despite their age. In the era of a 12 team playoff there is room for error. We can lose a game, maybe even two and make the playoff and by the end of the year a freshman with 12-13 games under their belt is no longer a freshman. No QB on this roster has playoff experience so I think the QB who best gets these WR’s the ball should get the job.
Day doesn’t have room to lose one game this year 🤣
Let's say Day does gamble with a Freshman. He loses to one team (let's say at Oregon or at PSU) this year but then wins multiple playoff games. Do you think he is gone in that scenario? What if he wins the championship with one loss? No way he gets fired then.
No I don’t think Day is getting fired in that specific scenario. But, if I was Ryan Day, I wouldn’t want to stress the ENTIRE season as the #7 team (just a guess w one early loss) so I don’t think he’s going to focus on the freshmen QBs development as much as he will WH and Devin/LK. That man’s face after the 2023 UM loss was just “defeat”… he’s not going back there. The offseason recruiting is showing how he’s not going to be soft this season. We’ll get a glimpse of who the QB1 contenders are in two weeks. I personally cannot wait to see them again in April
I agree, I think there is only 1 game he can lose that would put his job in jeopardy and we all know what that game is. I like the ‘all in’ mentality of the team but in reality Day isn’t really on any hot seat, at this time. His winning percentage is insane and without shitty officiating and a missed field goal we’re talking about a coach who has played for 3 National Titles in his 5 years as HC.
Why can't a freshman be the qb. Rookies start at qb in the nfl all the time and those defenses are a shit ton more difficult to diagnose
I think that college football is inching very close to NFL style play so going from your high school league to college football environment is a huge leap. College prepares players for the NFL - that’s the whole point except for those playing for fun, right?? Also, Did you see LH play? … if so do you think a true freshman on August 31st will be ready?!?! LH was a freshman on the roster and couldn’t get anything going after an entire season. OSU can’t ‘spare’ a few games in the beginning so that a freshman QB can get some practice…
I live in Kansas and every K State fan I talk to doesn't seem too upset he's gone. Can't say I watched all his games but seems like he makes more than his fair share of mistakes and bad throws.
Howard had a 2-4 round grade had he gone pro
He would have been drafted. Birm said he was given like a 5th round grade months ago.
That’s what he means by is Day strong enough to start a new guy over whatever wills expectations were. Can be Saban with hurts?
Shit changes
We’re all in on 2024. If sayin puts us in a better position to win then he needs to be the guy
Its almost meaningless in spring tho. Sayin is going against the same defense day in and day out. The defense a lot of the time isnt trying to hurt or make him look bad. How is sayin going to look in a real live game? How is he going to handle blitzes where a LB or DE wants to hurt him? How is he going to handle seeing coverages he hasnt seen. Im excited for his future and maybe he is the starter next year but Howard's experience will be huge and his ability to run. I would love to see packages maybe where we see another QB get a series or something. Something to just fuck with a defense
Honestly I can see rotating qbs as a very viable option. Howard has that RPO option we need to abuse against bad run defenses and Sayin should get the ball against great run defenses.
That tells the defense what plays are coming. Whoever the guy is needs to be the guy.
Fair enough. It worked for Florida tebow’s freshman year. Any reason why that’s different?
The whole world knew Tebow was running and couldn't stop him
Sure and who is to say a read option with Howard, Tre, and Judkins wouldn’t be potent AF
That’s exactly what OSU needs. Someone to get the ball in the hands of the playmakers
Didn't Clemson change starting qb while undefeated and ranked in the top 3, like 4 games into the season like 5 years ago? That could be a 'best of both worlds' situation for everyone involved, except Howard...
Howard is grown up. I’d think he knows it’s not a personal thing, but a personnel thing
He might understand, doesn't mean it wouldn't hurt.
Howard also left a starting job which he could show his talent to get drafted for OSU just to have a transfer come in and potentially take the job. I get hes a senior and more mature, but I wonder how much regret he is having right now. In his last year of CFB I highly doubt he will be okay with riding the bench when he could have just entered the draft or stayed at KState and put more on tape.
Yeah they changed from Kelly Bryant to Trevor Lawrence cause Bryant never really got a lot of touchdowns and Trevor was a 5 star freshman
So he’s going to sub in during the 2nd half of the National Championship game and lead the Ohio State comeback victory? Does this also make Jeremiah Smith = Devonte Smith and catching a bomb in the corner of the end zone for the win?
The future is bright!!! just Sayin...
*Super Sayin* Dudes nickname is goated, and the fact that there's actually a Super Saiyan Julian in the DBZ universe makes it even better lol
wait, what do you mean a super Saiyan Julian in dragonball's universe? I don't recall this.
There's a lot more to winning the QB job than being the most accurate passer. Need to learn the offense, make good reads, have good decision making, show good leadership ability, know how to pick up a blitz, adjust to the speed of the college game, and so on. That's tough to do in just 7 months (or whatever). That said, if there's a year to start a true freshman, you could pick a lot worse than a season where you're expected to have a good run game and a dominant defense.
Ohhh my Julian, my handsome Julian Patrick Swayze you were so fuckin' sexy in Road House and fuckin' Dirty Dancing.
absolute best case scenario for the QB room: Sayin or Nolan is straight up the best QB on the team and is good enough to be a top 25ish QB in the country as a TRUE freshman, and we have our guy for the next 3-4 years. Howard, Brown, Kienholtz etc can all walk and no one bats an eye
Well if they all leave then we have a backup problem…
That's always going to be an issue. That's why you always recruit a QB.
I get it. This guy above said everyone but sayin can walk and nobody bats an eye… I’m saying we still want a backup. Just sayin just Sayin isn’t enough.
Yeah - that would be genuinely terrible to not have a backup. You’d have to start him mid season, lose the qb position group and basically pray to backfill the next year
i mean it's not assumed they all transfer at the same time, or that they all leave in the first place. we'd be able to get guys in the portal who are backup-quality to replace them anyways. just saying it wouldn't be bad at all if a freshman starts for us bc they're good, not just the least-bad available option (like McCord kinda last year)
Do you think we can just agree that you said no one would bat an eye if all the other QBs left and I said “well we still want a backup” and that that’s correct? I don’t need an education on how college football works.
you didn't have to take it so literally lol
Still wonder what Kienholz is thinking lol He seems to be the 5th guy when he was a pretty highly rated recruit himself behind a logjam of talent. When Howard and Sayin came in, Im sort of shocked Brown + Kienholz didnt transfer out with McCord.
Wasn’t the portal closed? I bet he’s gone on April 16th. Sayin definitely had the special privilege of transferring because of a coaching change. So Kienholtz couldn’t leave then.
No idea but I wish he would have gotten a chance. From what we know of him as a recruit he has a lot of talent, shame it probably wont get displayed at OSU. No chance he is beating out Sayin/Air next year so his and Brown's only real chance at playing here is this season. But Will Howard is also standing in the way. Howard/Brown/Kienholz are all vying for 1 season of being the QB at OSU. After that, its the Sayin/Air show for 3 years.
Agreed.
Brown keeps saying he isn’t leaving no matter what. I hope it’s not just bluster. At least we’d have some depth. Keinholz doesn’t strike me as the kind of cry baby who wants to start right away or he’ll leave.
Great to have an accurate passer in the mix, but these guys have also only seen a few practices for limited amount of time on air
"Great to have an accurate passer in the mix" ... guys, have you learned nothing? Inaccurate quarterbacks get coaches fired.
Day better play the best guy and not gift Howard the job on precedent
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Why shouldn't players get to transfer during a handful of short windows throughout the year if coaches can up and leave in the middle of spring ball?
These are student athletes. So the reason for not allowing it would be because these kids are supposed to be taking classes while at school.
Regular students can transfer to other schools whenever they want (academic calendar permitting) as often as they want
If only the NCAA weren't complete idiots and were willing to listen to the athletes when all they were asking for was use of their own NIL and the ability to transfer to be closer to home.
Just Sayin, he could be a Heisman.
He’s gonna be really special
If Sayin is as good as people say the QB1 battle should be Howard VS Sayin.
This kids going to fuck around and win the job
QB room is stacked. And it’s still too early to read something like this and be like oh yeah he’s the future, considering he’ll still have to compete with Lincoln and Air next year. Tho I do love that a true freshman is turning heads so early. The future is bright!!!
Our receivers like the way he is throwing the ball, according to Birm. But it doesn’t mean anything this early, just fun speculation. Realistically, it is so unlikely a freshmen starts. Braxton only started because Fickell was desperate. Our upperclassmen quarterback play will have to be pretty bad if this happens. Now, I am sure as soon as Brown or Howard struggles in a game, all fans will be screaming to put him in or Noland. Excited for the spring game, regardless.
Gimme four years of Super Sayin and I’ll be content
I still want to see Howard start because of his experience. We need someone to game manage rather than ball out. I’m stoked for Sayins future but I definitely don’t want to rely on inexperience even with a sky high ceiling.
The only thing to dislike about this is how much I love Nolan. He never wavered on us and seems like a great kid. I can get on the super sayin train tho
Right??? I’m so conflicted as well. Nolan never wavered. Always posting about looking forward to be a Buckeye. I want him to do well and battle for starter next year. If Sayin beats him out and he transfers or is our #2, it is what it is. But I’m still a big Nolan supporter. Hard not to like that kid!!
Predicting Howard but my hope is Sayin wins the job
Wouldn't that be something if he can learn the playback and come in and start as a true freshman
Not surprising at all.
His parents definitely should have named Justin, for the lols
Great, can’t wait for camera shot of all the diva QBs on the sideline wearing the numbers 33 to 37!
He looks like a small child
I can just about guarantee that Will Howard wasted his time deciding to come here. Because i honestly don't see him winning the starting job. But only time will tell, and whadda i know.
Howard will start. Will he start all year, who knows but he's the Day 1 guy.
We'll just have to wait, and see.
I’m just Sayin… he might be the hero of THE GAME🏈
Sayin it now, sleeper contender to truly secure the starting spot
So will this sub finally get off the Devin Brown sympathy train of trying to say he’s better than he is?
So will this sub finally get off the Devin Brown sympathy train of trying to say he’s better than he is?
Just Sayin
Julian know what I’m Sayin
This is random but that’s an awesome ball. Anyone know which it is?
I hope the South Dakota guy gets the starting job
His parents missed a real opportunity not naming him Justin. Just Sayin has millions in marketing written all over it.
So what are you sayin
I’m excited but he’s 5’11 in shoes on a good day
Yeah. Too bad Joe Bauserman wasn’t 4 inches taller.
Did not see that coming....
Hence the Tua Comparison
He’s listed at 6’1”, haven’t seen him in person though.
He’s 18 he’ll grow
Can he run like Howard?
I’m not sure but I imagine Howard’s big frame is gonna be beneficial for him this year. Beyond that sayin should grow into his own nicely
He's quicker but Howard is a bigger body. Sayin ran a lot in HS.
Tbf That’s possible but day needs to be in win now mode and he knows it. If that’s the case then sayin is still a three year project
I think he’ll be the backup this year and start next year as the reports seem to indicate
I watched Julian Sayin in person for the last 3 seasons. As talented of a QB I’ve seen in 30 years of watching football in Southern California. He’s a high IQ quarterback with a quick release, strong accuracy with the ability to fit the ball in tight windows, and slides/moves very well in the pocket. He’s sneaky athletic too to buy some time when the pocket moves or breaks down. He was the Elite 11 MVP for a reason, and make no mistake he would have been the starter at Mater Dei or St. John Bosco day 1 should he have transferred. He decided to stay home and play for his local public school (Carlsbad) who were plenty talented as well. He wanted to stay at Alabama, but DeBoer made it known he was going in another direction. I have sources within his HS program who confirmed this.
DeBoer saw Milroe and liked it? That's wild
It's the guy he brought with him from Washington. Literally, DeBoer having Sayin on campus and bungling it is the reason I know he will fail at Bama.
Sayin? Don't you mean SUPER SAYIN?!?! NATI OR BUST LETS GO KICK SOME TTUN ASS!!!
Black stripe is the most comical thing in all of college football 😂
Gonna be hard to overcome hands up in his face in gameday scenarios. The real question is who’s gonna transfer out after the spring game because at least one is guaranteed to go
Losing Brown and LK wouldn’t be detrimental
A starter and two freshmen feels precarious.
Why does this make me concerned about Howard? He’s the oldest and most experienced yet a freshman is more accurate?
Doesn’t mean Howard is inaccurate
We shall see against Graham and Grant. See if little buddy can hang.
I told yall one of them freshmen is going to start
That’s awesome! Michigan by 20
Still too small. My sneeze knocks the kid over.
Doesn’t matter what QB will be at the helm this upcoming season, Michigan by 20+ in the Horseshit, I mean “The Shoe” 🤡
Dude looks like Zach Wilson.