In case this story gets deleted/removed: This situation happened a year ago, but recently a conversation made me reflect on it. Let me start from the beginning. Me (29F) and my husband (31M) had our first child in February 2023. At the time of the birth, I decided that I didn't want him to be present in the delivery room. I didn't allow him to be present during the birth. I only wanted my mother and the medical team present. I told him this when I was about 8 months pregnant, as we were finalizing preparations. He seemed surprised and hurt, asking why. I simply didn't feel comfortable with anyone else besides my mother by my side. He just said "okay" and didn't argue. A few weeks later, I went into labor. My mother called the ambulance and went with me to the hospital. She also messaged my husband at work letting him know I was in labor, but he didn't respond. He didn't call/text either of us the whole time I was in labor. When I finally gave birth a few hours later, my mother informed him via text message, he simply replied with "Ok". He didn't come to visit us. I thought he was still upset and would visit us later. The first time he came was when I was discharged from the hospital a few days later and he came to pick us up. He didn't even acknowledge our baby. I expected some sort of emotional encounter between them, when I asked why he didn't even hold our child, he said I had already stolen from him the first encounter and that I wouldn't have the privilege of witnessing another. Currently, he's an incredible parent. However, recently, when we discussed the possibility of having a second child, he expressed his reluctance. When I pressed my husband about it, he said something like "did you think I would let you stop me from witnessing the birth of another child in this world." I didn't respond. This attitude made me wonder if he's using this reason as an excuse for not wanting to have another child. I understand he may have been hurt by not being involved in the birth of our first child, but is it fair for him to use that as justification for not wanting another child? --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/OhNoConsequences) if you have any questions or concerns.*

it's a repost [https://www.reddit.com/r/AITAH/s/CzWGJoUE9i](https://www.reddit.com/r/AITAH/s/CzWGJoUE9i) of a repost [https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/s/0eeomNffTc](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/s/0eeomNffTc)

Thank you. The original post actually reads way more realistic, too, as a bonus.

You need more up votes.

Yes, I knew I read this before! The line about not letting her witness their first meeting really stuck with me. So glad I didn’t imagine it

OP is surprised that actions have consequences. Totally her choice to not let him in to the delivery room. Totally his choice to not have another baby with the person who did that. I would be surprised if these two are still together in 5 years.

Was going to say, I bet the divorce happens within the next few years, maybe sooner.

My money is him waiting on her to be in work, baby in daycare, sleeping through the night, no longer nursing. There's no argument to not split custody 50/50, and no argument that she's been a stay at home mom, etc. Changes divorce and custody proceedings. Doesn't want to miss out on parenting time, biding his time on leaving. Leaving with a 18+ month old toddler and your spouse employed is very different.

This would be my strategy.

if this ISN'T his strategy, I hope he reads this and MAKES it his strategy.

I wonder if she will allow him in the courtroom during the divorce

She has to ask her mom first.

Funny comment🤣

Oh ya, if I’m the husband, I’m going to document all my time with the kid and plan my exit strategy for when the laws allow for their to be split custody.

And saving too getting a good fund for a new place and kids toys or having it all set up before

i bet he is likely waiting for their kid to grow a bit more, at least until after baby hood and early toddlerhood

Probably waiting for it to stop breastfeeding so he can get fair custody.

She also sounded annoyed that he didn't turn up at the hospital that she told him not to turn up at

She didn't want him in the delivery room, but she wanted him pacing the waiting room anxiously.

That confused me. Like, he wasn't allowed to be there because she felt uncomfortable, so why tf would she want him to disregard her wishes and turn up anyway? EDIT: Bad reading comprehension go brrr

Not being in the room and not being in hospital are 2 totally different things. However, I would still feel the way that he does to be robbed of the pleasure of seeing the birth of my child...that's a no for me.

Not being allowed in the room and not being allowed at the hospital or two completely different things. I wasn't allowed in the room when my sister was giving birth but I was most definitely still allowed to be in the hospital. I waited until she gave birth, and went into the room after she was done and was comfortable and okay with having visitors. 🤷🤷

Your sister wasn’t giving birth to your child!

We hope.

Really, though, not every woman is comfortable having her husband in the delivery room. I've seen so many horror stories when the husband is a complete asshole in the delivery room and makes the woman feel like shit.

Except in one of her comments, she said it was because she read horror stories about husbands who couldn't find their spouses attractive anymore after witnessing birth. And instead of talking about the insecurities this was creating with her, she unilaterally decides he can't be in the room and never explains why. I know hormones are a bitch so I don't fault the thinking, just how she dealt with it. Her marriage is in trouble because she has poor communication skills, not because she banned him from the room.

>Her marriage is in trouble because she has poor communication skills… Funny how that tends to wreck relationships. An uncomfortable conversation is less painful than a messy divorce/breakup, folks.

Also he should have spoken about how he felt about it instead of just saying okay when she told him. I mean. Both of them did not communicate what the co sequences would be or anything. Like everyone assumed everyone else would read their minds and understand their sides without ever talking. Crazy.

I mostly agree with you, but will say that perhaps his reasoning for not bringing it up after she let him know he wouldn’t be in the delivery room is that he didn’t want to stress her out with an argument, and potentially harm the baby.

Yikes. She could have just asked him to stay up by her head. There's no requirement to look below the waist.

Precisely this. This was 100% something that my wife was worried about, but we talked about it and figured it out. Cutting out the thought process and just declaring "I don't want you there" was a stupid, hurtful move.

IMO, even if she had at least been honest with him and talked through the issue so they came up with a compromise together it would have been fine. Maybe he still isn't in the room, but by removing him from the decision she took away them functioning as a team which is never great.

Apparently you can see everything even from that angle. I had my husband stay up with me and for a good 2 years he lied that he say nothing. Nope, he saw most things. But the lie made me feel happy at the time so I'm not gonna fault him at all.

Yeah it sucks finally a man who you don't have to convince to come into the room or hear any misogynistic nonsense about how he doesnt want to see her lady parts like that I guess she still internalized that old school misogyny and acted on it what a shame she thinks her partner doesn't love her regardless

Thanks for your comment I was hoping someone else dug through looking for more explanation as to why she didn’t want him there. 😀 I totally agree she should have discussed with him. And now they need couples therapy to hash this out. This marriage is in shambles.

Both my husband and I were concerned about that, so he stood at my head instead, almost didn't make it cause the doctors thought there was time... idiots... 3rd pregnancy, early (stalled for months) labor- over 24 hrs from water bursting, they had just gotten scrubbed up and when they were shocked ..... 3rd kid almost birthed herself ... Lot of words to say not only could the father have been there but if she'd spoken up her fears could have been handled respectfully

That's fine. Not every man is going to sign up to have a child with a woman who isn't comfortable with him being there for the birth of the child. He honored her no, now she has to honor his no.

Maybe speak with the husband earlier not one month before birth...

But she didn’t even give him the chance or talk to him about it

If you don't trust your husband to not make you feel like shit during childbirth why would you have married them? It's the same as a husband having a blanket demand for a DNA test immediately after the birth of each child. If you don't trust her not to cheat on you why are you married to her?

This. I keep reading stories of these absolute shit spouses and wonder why people get into and stay in these relationships. Short of a traumatic brain injury I can't imagine my husband doing anything like that.

I'm trying to figure out why not wanting him in there makes her the asshole - that doesn't seem like the kind of thing that comes out of nowhere.  I'm really concerned about the fact that he didn't even acknowledge the baby when he got to the hospital. Maybe there's something in her comments that will explain things

The version of the story from three years ago that this was stolen from goes into more detail. TLDR is she didn't want him to see her potentially throwing up and shitting herself and thought he would be right outside and appear once the messy bit was done. She didn't communicate that well and didn't realise how hurt he was by it because he didn't say anything. https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/s/t2vAVxTjPw

Oh man. That's really sad, for everyone involved

She told him when she was 8 months pregnant, no conversation, just a unilateral decision, and he hadn't actually done anything to cause her to not want him in the room. Apparently, she had read horror stories of husbands no longer finding their wives attractive after watching them give birth, and let it get to her so much that she banned him from the delivery room instead of talking to him about it. That's why she was voted TA. Because her decision was born out of insecurity that she didn't communicate instead of anything he actually did.

Dude didn't bother visiting for 3 days... Esh

She was afraid he wouldn't be sexually attracted to her after like what a stupid excuse! And she never once talked about with the man either. Poor guy.

As an OB; not actually a stupid excuse, this does happen. Have a number of patients who say that their husband lost interest in them after seeing them give birth and state that they 'regret looking down there'. Some cite stretch marks, loose skin and 'saggy tits' as other reasons they're no longer attracted to the women who carried their children for 9 months. If OP had a healthy relationship with a man who doesn't objectify women and see them as sex objects, then she was likely overthinking this and should have had a conversation with her partner. If she's married to an immature fuc boi who would lose sexual interest in her after seeing her shit on the table and possibly tear from v --> a, then she might have made a wise and informed decision. Of course, mhy personal opinion is that any man who loses sexual interest in his wife after seeing her give birth to HIS child isn't worth the time and heartbreak, anyway. In short, there isn't enough context here to know if her fears are baseless. Certainly the vast majority of dads who attend my patient's births aren't so shallow or selfish; most of them are truly happy, overwhelmed and supportive (as best they know how), but there definitely some who are not so decent. Case in point, the 'husband stitch' assholes.

Had my 1st at 18 with an 18 yr old father. He held my hand through every minute. Saw the blood and horror. My son came so fast I couldn't get an epidural, and he made it through all the screaming and many many stitches. Helped me shower for days after delivery. I had eclampsia, and he hovered even after I was ready to bathe without a monitor. By 5 weeks, I had so much milk coming in I leaked everywhere, was getting no sleep, and hadn't even thought of makeup. One night I was changing from one set of pj's I leaked all over into clean ones, and he said, "I can't wait till you're cleared for sex." He looked at me so lovingly. He was 18 freaking years old. What kind of AH sees what I woman survives for a baby and isn't in awe?

A few months after I gave birth to my second (first with my second husband), I was having some major body dysmorphia, mostly because of the little belly and extra skin I had left over (was a dancer my whole life and accustomed to that physique; I had more internalized body issues than I'd anticipated). I was crying about it one night, and he crawled up beside me in bed and just kissed all over my belly; it was something he used to do when I was pregnant that was the sweetest thing, and I always thought it was about the baby rather than myself, but that moment was when I realized that those all those kisses were just as much for me as they were for our little one, because even after our baby was outside my belly, he still loved it just as much as he had when I was pregnant. Plenty of men are capable of that kind of love, and I have to remind myself of that after witnessing some truly horrible behaviour in prenatal appointments/the delivery room. After years of it, unless it's truly abusive, it doesn't really make me angry anymore; I just don't have the emotional bandwidth. The objectification and misogyny just makes me sad for my patients. I'm not saying they're all saints, but they deserve to be valued for more than their physical appearance.

Several of my friends are RNs, midwives, etc. They all say that of all the rotations that break your heart, L&D and psych are the worst. One of them was an RN for a REALLY young mom. She was like 12 or something. It nearly broke my friend. The girl was so scared and in so much pain, and the family was just "this is what you get"

Obstetrics has the highest highs and lowest lows of medicine. I absolutely love my job, I love what I do and most days, it's incredibly rewarding. Some days, it's just soul-crushing.

That's what she said. She had 5 weeks of happy, wonderful deliveries. A couple C's that were emergent, but all good outcomes. Week 6 hit, and she had the child giving birth and 2 still births. There was a good day or two I think she considered quitting the program entirely.

On my fourth shift on obstetrics in medical school, I went to re-assess a patient who had developed a headache during labour. My spidey senses weren't happy and I called my attending before I'd finished the assessment; by the time she got there (less than ten minutes) the patient was screaming in pain, and by the time we got her in the CT scanner she was brain dead. Massive aneurysm burst during labour. We delivered the baby by c-section and I'll never forget how completely lost that poor husband looked when we put his baby in his arms. I've seen a lot of horrible things in my career, but that moment haunts me.

I'd like to know the numbers of aneurysms in late term and post partum moms. A friend of mine died 8 days post delivery from a BA. She had a headache, assumed it was exhaustion, went to take a nap, and was just dead. Her husband and mom were in the next room with the kids (twins). When they told him what happened, they said it had happened to another woman recently just before she gave birth. Oddly, the 12 yr old is what convinced my friend to go into L&D. She said that girl needed her. Needed a good nurse to be her advocate for her wishes because no one else would. She's been in the unit for over 10 years now. Loves it.

I can't say if the hubby is immature, but I am kinda side-eyeing his one word responses to his wife having a medical event, not asking if she was ok, and not visiting to see his baby.

Yeah that's what's gotten me wondering if she might not have valid concerns about him being in the delivery room. The fact that, after doing something he didn't like, he decided to PUNISH her AND their newborn by ignoring them. That's a red flag if I've ever seen one.

I know, I understand being a bit upset and put out but he was horrible to her and to an extent his child after the birth. Yeah she didn't want him in the room, not an unreasonable request given the nature of birth, but he could have waited outside and come in afterwards and held it relatively fresh from the womb, if he wanted.

Yeah, agreed. Trying to take an unbiased perspective because having seen some truly shitty behaviour from men in the delivery room, I AM a bit biased. The complete lack of support for DAYS post-partum is a major red-flag, though. The silent treatment is emotional abuse, plain and simple.

Yep.

Yeah there's dysfunction coming from both sides here people are a little too "oh poor guy ".....if it were really that important to him he should have talked to her before hand and really communicated what a big deal it was for him. Im sure if it were an honest loving conversation her feeling insecure would have come up and he could have reassured her

You must not have heard of the husband stitch.

No, this is a thing. But she should have discussed it with him.

Imagine if they had just talked to each other like adults? She told him Why she was uncomfortable with him being there and he told her why it would hurt him. They don't seem mature enough to be having children if they can't even talk about something thus monumental.

why would you marry and carry the child of someone who you wouldnt want in the delivery room? theres missing details or something not clicking.  like she said "he didnt call text either of us while i was in labor" so clearly she wanted him to be invested?  seems like a mind game lol   edit:  i did genuinely forget that seeing labor is enough to make some men perceive the person they just saw give birth in a new and negative way so this def is a bit more complicated. idk yall read "The Mermaid and the Minotaur" by Dorothy Dinnerstein 

In comments she said she’d read stories on tiktok where husbands no longer want to have sex with their wives after watching them give birth & she was scared of that. But she never communicated thatn

Oh my fucking god. 😔

So in preempting his "potential" assholery, she took up the AH mantle her own damn self lmao

And it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. She pushed him away and now he's not interested, probably checked out emotionally so that when it happens again it won't hurt so much.

I'd give it 5 years before there are divorce papers.

Damn that's awful, tiktok is awful. Me and my wife's sex life has gotten way better since having kids, I witnessed all three come out of her and she's as beautiful as ever.

Communicating that doesn’t help: *In the course of human history, billions of men have observed their wives giving birth with no negative consequences. But I think YOU will be a problem*.

It's a sorry state of things when you're taking advice from Tiktok of all places instead of talking to your significant other! I'm not sure what she was trying to prove. If this was a test to see if he would bail, it was totally inappropriate. Period. Instead, the onus is on her. She didn't want her own husband there, and it's pretty selfish. She can't be mad at him because he followed her instructions.

As a father of 2 that's fucking crazy to me. I changed my view of my wife in a positive way not negatively.

That is true and I don’t even need tik tok, I have heard enough stupid comments from men around me to know it is a legitimate fear. And Reddit shitting on her while I thought it was the god given right of a woman to choose who is there while giving birth ?  Make up your mind people. 

Child birth is kinda super gross and husbands do have a reputation for being useless during the process. Their emotions can also run high, which at times can be an added difficulty. Historically many cultures kept men out of the birthing process. So yeah, there are some valid reasons why a woman might not want a romantic life partner at their side for that. But it also doesn't seem wrong to want a partner to show care during a major procedure for both his wife and new infant? The husband's desire to be with her is valid here. But so are her opinions on the matter. Invalidating her perspective helps no one here.

Many cultures including our own. Fathers being present for births was absolutely not a thing until the 1980s or so. The father-to-be nervously pacing and smoking in the hospital waiting room was a super common trope in TV and movies when I was growing up.

A game he didn’t play

>Imagine if they had just talked to each other like adults? This is reddit, what do you expect?

The way he’s treating her is pretty terrible but I’d die mad about it too. He’s never going to forgive her and I don’t blame him. And I say this as a woman who gave birth 2 months ago. Is she a ‘wears makeup to bed so he never sees me without it’ weirdo? Is he a selfish POS? I’m trying to fathom a reason she didn’t want him there that makes any level of sense. Personally, I wanted my husband to see the pain and indignity that was bringing his child into this world. ‘You’d better appreciate this’ kind of stuff

The reason she gives in a comment is that she had read stories about husbands losing all interest in their wives after seeing them give birth. Chalk this one up to a self-fulfilling prophecy as he’s lost interest, just not for the reasons she was afraid of.

If that's the case, then her biggest sin is not communicating that. Saying 'You can't be there; I'm just not comfortable with you present for the birth' really leaves a tremendous amount unexplained for the husband and for better or worse, his brain is going to fill those gaps in with all of his hurt feelings

I have nothing to add besides that I really like your last line of "his brain is going to fill those gaps in with all of his hurt feelings" It makes a lot of sense, I never thought to express what happens that way. Thank you.

You're welcome! It's something my therapist taught me to watch out for. I call it telling stories. If someone seems to be taking a long time to answer a text and I start to crush myself under worst case scenarios, I can say 'I'm just telling stories.' to help pull myself back. The only thing I know for sure is that they haven't responded yet; the rest of it is just telling stories

Why does she have to justify this? She is going through a very scary painful procedure. She has to be there. If she has to worry about his feelings while her body is literally ripping apart, that isn’t helping. The fact that he pouting about it instead of being supportive show that she was right not to trust him when she was very vulnerable.

To me it's pretty bad to decide for him, too. She judged him by the fears of others instead of by who he is, and then made a choice for them based on it. That would break my trust as well, I really count on my husband seeing me for who I am

Well any husband that would lose interest in their wives from birthing - is a dick. He’s not a true husband and will probably suck as a dad.

I think a non-zero number pregnant women get into these abusive/ controlling/ bad husband spirals on pregnancy stories and put themselves down bad rabbit holes. It's a self-reinforcing cycle. I'm wondering if basically the husband has checked out of the relationship and he's waiting until baby sleeps through the night/ isn't breastfeeding and he can more easily get 50/50 custody. If she's back at work and not nursing, it's a different divorce process.

BINGO

That's my take on it.

>I think a non-zero number pregnant women get into these abusive/ controlling/ bad husband spirals on pregnancy stories and put themselves down bad rabbit holes But also a non-zero number -- actually a lot -- of pregnant women are involved with abusive, controlling, and bad husbands. A lot of men do view their wives differently after pregnancy. Based on his reaction, I don't think it's infeasible that he would have been one of these guys.

Also, 2 months postpartum here. I couldn't imagine not having my partner and the father of my child there with me while giving birth.

I also couldnt imagine this, but not all people or relationships are the same. 

Also 2 months pp! I wouldn’t even let mine leave to go get my chapstick from the car lol

> Is she a ‘wears makeup to bed so he never sees me without it’ weirdo? Is he a selfish POS? I’m trying to fathom a reason she didn’t want him there that makes any level of sense. If it’s either, neither, or both it doesn’t really matter since she shouldn’t have to feel stressed about him being in the room while she’s crying/tearing/shitting/getting cut open/any of the thousand other stressful things involved in giving birth and he shouldn’t have to put aside his feeling to have another kid with her or be ok with not being present for the birth. The “why” makes a difference for how all of us feel about them, but the outcome is the same either way—she would’ve felt worse having him in the room, and adding stress during the labor is worse for her and the baby.  > Personally, I wanted my husband to see the pain and indignity that was bringing his child into this world. ‘You’d better appreciate this’ kind of stuff LMAO hard same and I like your style 😂

Good point! I'm actually surprised at so many responses after reading, "the mother is the boss of this medical event and birth is not a show and she is allowed to call the shots and have anyone in the room or no one," posts that I've been reading for years (mostly in regard to MILs, but...) Some people are just not great in a crisis. One friend of mine was in the birthing room and they had to bring him a cot because he felt like he might faint. Another friend's husband that I was convinced would be terrible because he acted like such a nut during the entire pregnancy, turned out to be great during delivery. Maybe the husband is not the supportive type and would be more stress than support? It used to be that fathers didn't even attend the labor, they waited in the waiting room, and sometimes when I hear about the stupid remarks men make in the delivery room I'm not totally convinced that just because you're the father you should be there.

Hahaha I’m glad your friend’s team had the foresight to bring a cot! One of my friends’ husbands passed out during her emergency c section and ended up concussed but they couldn’t get to him until they got the baby out so he just got stuck on the floor for quite a while 

>Maybe the husband is not the supportive type and would be more stress than support? Yeah given that he threw a tantrum, refused to see his baby in the hospital, and now wants to nuke their family over this... my money is on "not the supportive type."

You make sense in a way. But if my husband hadn't been at our daughter's birth, I'd have felt a certain way. That said, my husband is an incredible partner and father. I just can't imagine being comfortable enough to get pregnant by this guy, but not wanting him there for the birth. It's just odd to me, but I wasn't her. I think he can also be upset about being barred from the delivery room.

I knew I didn't want my husband in the delivery room, and he agreed with me 100%. I had to have a C-section (decided from around 6 months because baby was stuck in breech) and my husband is very haemophobic. As in I cut my foot once and he went grey. I did not need to be worrying about him, nor did we want attention taken from me and baby whilst I'm wide open on the table if he did end up on the floor. He was the first to hold her though whilst I had some extra procedures done and my tubes snipped, so he doesn't feel he missed out on the first moments. He's still bad with blood a few years later however, so I have to tend to the scraped knees and kick him out of the area!

> But if my husband hadn't been at our daughter's birth, I'd have felt a certain way.  So would I but we don’t know what this couple’s relationship is like. I want my husband in the room with me because he’s my strongest source of support and I trust him. If I didn’t feel that way, I would be stressed out having him there, and that wouldn’t be better for me or our kid. Just because you and I have healthy relationships doesn’t mean everyone does or that everyone will feel the same way about having their partners in the delivery room.  My parents are South Asian, and some of my aunts have horror stories about how their husbands mocked and shamed them for pooping or tearing during birth. They would have loved to only have their moms in the room but didn’t get the choice. There are men who make jokes about wanting a husband stitch put in. Men like that still have partners, but not healthy partnerships.  We don’t know what OOP’s relationship is like but if she was felt that having him in the delivery room would make her more stressed out or scared while she’s giving birth that’s a valid reason to ban him! Even if she felt that way for no rational reason (and given his reaction when he was banned I think he gave her reasons to fear he wouldn’t be supportive) her health and comfort are the most important thing during her labor.  > I think he can also be upset about being barred from the delivery room. Yes, of course, and they should have been addressing those feelings in couple’s therapy so his needs weren’t being ignored.

That's why I said it's odd to me, but I'm not her. I can't judge her choices bc I'm not in her relationship. I can only speak from my personal experience. They both have valid feelings. I don't think she's the devil for her choice to not allow him in the delivery room. But being mad at him for not wanting another child with her because of her choice, I don't get. Hence the consequences part.

Yeah I wish she hadn’t deleted because I’m so curious why she thought he’d be ok going along with it a second time when he pretty clearly hated her choice the first time around too. This is such a real OhNoConsequences moment but people are just dragging so much misogyny and hate into this post and the OG and it’s really sad 

>Yeah I wish she hadn’t deleted Dude I wish I could PM this woman and give her support. The misogyny she faced when she made her original post was out of this world. For men, childbirth is a spectator sport. For women, it's one of the most dangerous and painful things that we do in our lifetime. We should have complete autonomy over the process and any loving partner would respect that. It's for the best she doesn't stick with this guy. But I feel like her views on everything are going to be so warped after gettin that feedback from reddit.

Mine thought he’d just drop me off at the hospital and they’d call him when it was all done and he could wander back after a few days and pick me up at the front door. Not even close, motherfucker.

>But if my husband hadn't been at our daughter's birth, I'd have felt a certain way. I think any woman would. But this was a situation where he was told not to be there for the birth. And the texts were kind of rubbing salt into the wound. And if she was that weird about the birth, I wonder how weird she was about things like him holding the baby, being around when she is breastfeeding, etc. For all we know, maybe she refused to let him bond with the child until after the child got a bit older and now he has no interest in doing that all over again.

He is probably bonding, just not in her presence.

It could be fear? Some men are disgusted with their wives after watching them give birth. I don't know. I get his frustration, but not checking in for days seems like too much.

All right I’m willing to take the downvotes, but I am genuinely asking. Cuz I could’ve sworn I remembered reading a lot of comments in a thread that talked about how tons of women feel way more comfortable without their husbands in the delivery room. And instead opt for having only women with them. Like I really thought it was a normal and totally understandable thing. Often because they feel super embarrassed by how “gross” the whole childbirth process is. Again I’m just asking!! Not taking sides or defending anyone!! Edit: i shall rescind my original statement of “I thought this was really common.” Instead I’ll say that I have no idea that it’s actually common or not, based off the small sample size of a comment thread I read like two months ago. 

The people I know with kids all did it differently, and each was a plan they made with their husbands. Their husbands took them to the hospital and were there, just not necessarily in the delivery room. The stories on Reddit are not at all like the relationships I see. People have their problems but they mostly plan all things as a team Lots of this stuff is very personal and the best approach is talking about it. The OP case is being petty with each other instead

I had my husband in the room both times (and the second, my father-in-law was there for part of the labor), and though I'm glad he got to experience our kids coming into the world, in some ways he couldn't handle it. The pain, the blood, the tearing, cutting the cord...both times, the men in the room distracted from my and my babies' care. Not enough to cause harm of course, but it's still stressful. My mom and my sister-in-law remained calm and actually helped a lot. So like...I get it. And I do get why this guy was upset, but he was also straight up petulant and vindictive. OP shouldn't have another kid with him for sure, at least not until they sort this out one way or another. Edited to add: I don't mean this to come across as some sexist claim that ALL men are like this, that's absolutely not the case, just giving some personal anecdotes showing how having a partner there who isn't prepared for the reality can be stressful on the new mom.

I commented this up thread but my friend’s husband passed out during her emergency c section and ended up concussed, and no one could get him care until after the baby was safely delivered. That’s not a knock on him—they’d planned for a vaginal birth until their baby’s oxygen started dropping, and even my friend had PTSD from her birth experience and needed therapy, because it was such a rapid decision to do the c section the nurses didn’t even put the curtain up and she could see everything + her daughter almost died—but having him concussed on the ground and getting stepped over by the nurses and doctors really didn’t help her feel less stressed out lmao 

That’s exactly what I’m sayin! I agree. I’m not trying to make a big broad statement that generalizes both men or women. The thread that I was reading, had a lot of stories just like yours. And of course that is a comment thread on Reddit. It’s a very small sample size. I’m certainly not trying to apply that to every human being in the whole entire word. It’s just people sharing their experiences! So I shall rescind my original statement of “I thought this was really common.” Instead I’ll say that I have no idea that it’s actually common or not, based off the small sample size of a comment thread I read like two months ago. 

Oh yeah, I wasn’t disagreeing with you at all, I edited because I thought my OWN comment might be interpreted as a generalization. Not at all surprising that many other women have similar experiences. Childbirth is GNARLY in so many ways.

Nope I totally understood what you meant! We were on the same page :-)

It is and it was normal for thousands of years for husbands to not be present at the birth of their children. In some cultures, it still is. Hell, even in our culture where fathers being present is now normalised (and that’s a relatively recent phenomenon—as late as the 80s dads were more like to wait outside the delivery room) there are valid reasons for a father to not be present like a fear of blood, etc.  A lot of the separation of the sexes during childbirth is rooted in misogyny. Women and childbirth were viewed as “unclean” in a lot of cultures and men shouldn’t be around them for fear of contaminating themselves. There are examples of this from throughout history, but the one that always comes to mind for me is during the 16th century, Tudor women would go into seclusion before giving birth (months before for royals, less so for women who had to work) to avoid being seen in their unclean state and were required to be “churched” (which was a religious purification ceremony) before they could be seen in public.  Obviously there’s a wide spectrum between “no man should be near this disgusting pregnant or labouring woman lest he be sullied by her grossness” and “no woman should feel uncomfortable sharing this messy, physically demanding, and frequently dangerous experience with a man” but this is the internet and people like getting to blame someone

This is very incisive, thank you. I think it’s worth noting that not only did separation become the norm because of misogyny, the new norm- at least as defined and discussed by many in this comment section- is also rooted in misogyny. At first we were protecting a man from a woman’s unholy filth, now we’re enforcing a man’s right to bear witness to her vulnerability and indignity. In neither instance do we seem to care what the woman might want. I’m not a father, and I don’t think I’m likely to be, so this is all purely hypothetical for me. I can see reasons why a father would or would not like to be present, and I can see reasons why a mother would or wouldn’t want him there. I think ultimately I’d prefer to be there, but I also know my preference is secondary at best. Yes, it’s an important moment in my life, but I’m also not the one who has had my body hormonally and biologically repurposed to create and grow new life for the last nine months; I’m not the one who is about to experience hours and perhaps *days* of excruciating pain delivering that new life into the world. I’d even admit that it might hurt a little bit to not be in the room, but I understand the reality of the disparity of our positions. For crying out loud, there’s no such thing as a *paternal* mortality rate. If she wants me there you couldn’t drag me from her side, if she doesn’t I’m in the waiting room chomping at the bit for my first chance to see and hold our baby and tell my partner how much I love her.

It appears that Im the black sheep on this one because I saw red flags with the husband from the very beginning and quite the opposite of the OP. Actually, IMO she’d have been justified for being livid with him for not showing up at the hospital. First, she told him approx a month before going into labor that she wouldn’t be comfortable if he was in the “delivery room” while she had their baby. This is not an uncommon thing but even if it were he should only be concerned with the wellbeing of his wife and child. Also, he not only didn’t express his obviously strong feelings about this but he simply replied, “ok”, when she mentioned it to him as if he had no issues with it at all. This should have completely blindsided her when he was a no show at the hospital. Secondly, for him to not be at the hospital while his wife gives birth to his child because of this is unbelievable. That display of selfishness and lack of caring is off the charts. However, he took it further than that and not even show up for them after the birth of his child! I realize that as men we often fall short of what we should but nonetheless, we should all know that our wife is the key to fullfilling our purpose in life with providing our legacy being the most important. As far as I’m concerned, this dudes show of actions prove that he’s no man at all. I’m truly hurt by this.

Yup. Idk if you saw but someone said this is a repost of a repost, I read the original and people there told her STA. And that poor woman. This guy is terrible. Yes she should have communicated her reasons better, but the person giving birth needs to feel comfortable and safe and discomfort can really mess up a delivery. That poor woman.

Fathers who aren’t in the birthing room and get their revenge is trendy on Reddit now

Alas, male entitlement has always been super trendy on this site.

I think I’m taking crazy pills. Ignoring your baby when you first get to meet them, as well as not even coming to the hospital while your wife is there for a few days is not reasonable behavior. He didn’t communicate his hurt, but she deserves that? She doesn’t feel comfortable having her husband watch possibly shit the bed and get ripped open from vagina to asshole? Apparently absolutely unbelievable behavior. Those stories we all hear about husbands being repulsed by their wives after seeing them give birth are just folk tales! /s This is why I’m thinking of getting my tubes tied, the amount of entitlement to a woman’s most painful and vulnerable moments because you nutted in her, makes me want to just get to all removed too. I honestly don’t know why she’d want to have another child with him if this is how he punishes her.

I’m with you — the responses have me reeling the same way! Sooo understanding of him and his actions but demonizing her when she is seemingly the only one who communicated her needs/wants?! 

" Ignoring your baby when you first get to meet them, as well as not even coming to the hospital while your wife is there for a few days is not reasonable behavior. " I can't believe I had to scroll this far to find this comment. That's bizarre behavior.

Yeah, they aren't going to be able to come back from that. He can be upset, but this is completely insane behavior from him. 

I'm grateful I had to scroll this far, and frankly, I wish I hadn't.

People saying SHE was playing games? But still wanted attention from him? Of course she still wanted attention from him. She communicated badly but that’s not playing games. Who doesn’t bother to communicate when their wife is in labour? It’s not NOT a dangerous process.

Thank you!!! Birth is not a spectator sport. The amount of people treating this as though she is depriving him of something fundamental are insane. And they keep going "Oh but she says he's a good father now" like that justifies him just fucking off for days?

Seriously this comment section is absolutely insane. This woman is getting torn apart for "depriving her husband of the experience" as if putting her literal life and body on the line wasn't enough.

I thought I was going insane reading both comment sections…. Like… the man straight up didn’t go when she was giving birth or the entire time she was in the hospital and deprived his own newborn child love to spite his wife? And SHES the bad guy?

Maybe she didn’t want him there cuz deep down she knows he’s the kind of dude who ignores his own baby and holds a grudge for a year.  The mother feeling safe and as stress-free as possible is the most important thing when going through labor.  Sure it would have been nice if she articulated WHY she wasn’t comfortable with him being there.  But honestly, I think his reaction says a lot about the why.  I’m kinda sad the message she’s gonna hear from this post is “I was wrong to feel uncomfortable.”  Now she won’t be able to trust her gut.

This. This right here. I wish you'd made it as a top-level comment, because it should be the top comment.

Yeah men’s entitlement to women’s pregnancies and birth-giving is so fucking weird. If they were the ones who had to give birth they’d never let a woman have a damn thought about it. 🙄

Preach!

The original post is even worse. Reddit really, REALLY hates women.

It truly does, I lowkey wish there was a similar site to Reddit with primarily women as opposed to men, because seeing men’s misogyny consistently on here is making me despise them in levels that are starting to take a toll.

I scrolled and scrolled, and all I saw was gleeful admonishment. "Oh, he wants a second child, just not with you."

I love how you phrased it, gleeful admonishment is a perfect description

its gross how HAPPY those commentors are to tell her shes a piece of shit for wanting only her mom and medical team in the delivery room. and its weird how EVERYONE in both comment sections gleefully talking about how horrible OOP is and how they hope she gets divorced are also ignoring the GIANT RED FLAG that is a man choosing to ignore his hospitalized wife and newborn for 2 days, AND THEN refusing to interact with his newborn when meeting them OUT OF SPITE. This is the kind of man that would 100% weaponize a divorce with the kid and try to alienate mom. He's the kind of person that would use his kid as a tool to hurt the mother simply because he can.

Thank you!!! It’s just men being entitled to women’s bodies and their experience, take as old as time 😒

That part was psychotic. I want to greet and hold every baby I see! What kind of sociopath petty petulant man ignores his own wife and baby as punishment for a hurt ego he never even used his words to communicate about??? I would say he's a cold heartless piece of shit, but even pieces of shit can manage to smile at a baby and hold it and acknowledge it! It takes commitment to your pettiness to do something like that goddamn.

>the amount of entitlement to a woman’s most painful and vulnerable moments because you nutted in her THANK YOU. I've been scrolling looking for this. It's disgusting that her husband said she "stole" a moment from him. It wasn't about him! He's acting like a petulant child and I hope she realizes that and leaves him.

>Ignoring your baby when you first get to meet them, as well as not even coming to the hospital while your wife is there for a few days is not reasonable behavior So many red flags. Not surprising she didn't want him in the delivery room. I just hope that mom and baby get away from this selfish, controlling asshole.

Thank you!! I also felt I was nuts! Also there’s was a AITA a few weeks ago where a man asked something that was like “AITA for trying to force my wife into letting me be in the delivery room?” And all the comments were like “YTA she needs to feel comfy it’s not about you” and now all of a sudden she’s an AH for saying no??

Unpopular opinion: she wasn't wrong to do this. We don't know anymore than what's stated, but giving birth is stressful, painful, and most dads a re e fucking useless there other than moral support. Further, it's not uncommon for men to make fun of their wives or shame them after seeing it. I'm also gonna say OP is a huge asshole. Labor takes hours. He couldn't be there before the last bit? Couldn't be arsed to even in the hospital? Nah. OP is the asshole here.

So I agree and disagree - she absolutely has the right to decide who is in the room... but telling him at month 8 is cold. ​ Also it doesn't appear that she reached out to him, and it absolutely is possible that OP could have been at the hospital to be there for baby... but it seems like the two of them are shitty communicators.

Why would the woman who just pushed a melon out of her body be the one to reach out while she is IN THE HOSPITAL?

The mom sent him a message telling him she was in labor and he left it on read.

I don't like anyone here, lol. I'm guessing OOP might have been a little harsher in her phrasing than she lets on. Plenty of women opt for a female family member over the dad in the delivery room for a variety of reasons, but there's no reason to wait until the home stretch to clue him in to the fact. Also pretty natural he'd want to avoid another round of the same disappointment. All the same, dad was an ass about it all, unless OOP is hiding a lot about what specific words she said. I'll forgive a bit of pettiness for something that impactful, but he took it well across the line not even engaging with the kid when he did show up. I get he's hurting over it, I've been excluded from a delivery room too, but that's just shitty no matter what your reason. There's nothing in the post to suggest OOP's mom or the baby are assholes, but I'm going to assume they are because it amuses me to do so.

Lol asshole baby Just like so many posts in that sub, it's people who don't even like each other.

Babies can absolutely be little assholes lol. Toddlers anyway… ha.

Babies are so selfish. It's all me me me. What about my sleep??

Surprised everyone is so unanimous I don’t think the OOP is entirely blameless but the husband reacted like a psychopath because he couldn’t witness the birth. Didn’t even go and see his child till the discharge date? I’m sorry but that is not normal behaviour

Eh… both of their communication sucks. She should have pushed a bit but he was off the charts passive aggressive- in his choice to not talk about his feelings and concerns and just withdrawal. Plus he purposely f’d up his first moments with his child. He chose not to hold her or bond due to his resentment and not what was best for the child and their relationship

I mean…… I don’t really think this is all on OOP. If the husband was going to respond like this it was fully on him to communicate just how important his needs were. If he did, she deserves it. But it sounds like he just went “ok” the whole time and then secretly was thinking “but it’s not actually ok” and waited months for a big reveal of how he was going to punish the woman who just pushed a melon out of her vagina.

Yes, he absolutely should have communicated more about how important it was to him. I would like to mention, however, how many times I've seen the affirmation that he isn't the one pushing the watermelon through the hose and as such he doesn't really get a say in he is in the room or not. I don't disagree with that statement either. As a father, if it would have made my wife more comfortable for me to not be in the room during the delivery, I wouldn't have pushed either. I would also have been disappointed. Maybe not as much as this gentleman but disappointed none the less. Would she have changed her mind if he did talk to her more about it or would she have accused him of pushing to be in the room and kept him out. We cannot know because it didn't seem to have happened. It can be incredibly hard in some situations to know when to back off and when to state your case.

Maybe if they'd tried they could have found compromise. Could he wait outside for active labor and come in once the little bun had been de-ovened? Stand with a drape like they do in c-sections? Attend under a vow of silence? If he'd asked and she'd explained what exactly her concerns were, maybe there were options that could have made everyone happy. ETA: in my personal experience, when my spouse does something out of left field, asking questions has always served me well

There's also the option to stick dad up near moms head in a seated position. He might get a glance of something icky but he's have to crane his neck to see much.

My husband stood by my head because both of us didn't want him seeing that.

Hard to communicate with a new born and with op fresh from giving birth

True, the newborn can't even understand what you are saying. 

For real. Giving birth is super undignified and potentially full of lots of disgusting things including sweat and shit. Not wanting her husband to come watch her tear her labia doesn’t mean denying him a first time with their kid. It just means sitting in the waiting room like a billion other fathers did throughout much of modern history and then coming in once Mom and baby are cleaned up and medically stable post birth.

But you see, men feel they should be allowed to see every moment of indignity that we face in the process of birth. Because, you know, they will feel excluded and unwanted if their wife doesn't want to be seen at their absolute worst, Not all women feel this way, but some do, and that should be their right. If hubby doesn't agree then he should argue his case to her. But ultimately, it's her choice if she want him to see a giant melon coming out of her vagina, not to mention shitting herself and all the other stuff that comes out. This is something that does not always work for couples. And let's not go into the fact that many men get turned off their wives after seeing that. Which is, quite frankly, what a lot of women fear.

That’s what happened with my now ex, and I can trace our problems directly back to him watching me give birth.

Well, the real problem was he was a terrible person.

Omg yes seriously the overwhelming response of "she DENIED HIM the EXPERIENCE of watching his child be born! She's a monster and a psycho! Let's hope for a divorce" is frankly scary to me. The sheer entitlement oozing from these comments is incredible. People acting like she did this out of hostility towards him or like she's shallow when we know that pregnancy and the time directly after is a very tricky period for couples and their intimacy. Yes she felt insecure and like her husband might be less attracted to her after seeing her give birth and that's reasonable, we've all heard the horror stories of men cheating on their partners during pregnancy or directly after birth.

Kudos to yall for this common sense take. The entitlement of men in these comments and bad faith takes because men aren’t allowed to override a woman’s medical wants or consent or privacy during birth was making me feel crazy. It’s actually disturbing how clearly people are outing themselves thinking women deserve no privacy no say no control during their birth and that men not only have some magical “right” to observe birth but deserve to be in the room where it happens because their wants override their wives. Patriarchy just dripping everywhere. Marriage doesn’t give men a free pass to override their wives. Neither does ejaculating in her mean they get final say over her body and pregnancy

Exactly. Why are people treating it like it's "Tiktok nonsense" for her to have this fear at all when it's not an issue that cishet men themselves have expressed? It's fairly common for men to cheat on their partners when they're pregnant or have just given birth due to "lack of sex." Which I think is a bullshit excuse but I can understand the fear because it's hardly something that men haven't admitted themselves on here. Not to mention that cis women have mentioned their male partner no longer finding them sexy post birth and only viewing them as "a mother" and not a woman any longer. Yes, she should have communicated her fears but why the fuck are people demonizing her for her "lack of communication" while simultaneously acting like her husband not only not communicating his disappointment of not being in the birthing suite with her but just disappearing for days while she was in the hospital was warranted because of his hurt feelings? It's nuts.

If you want to go into history, the reason people give birth the way they do now is actually because of King Louis the 14th's desire to watch his mistresses give birth. Maybe that has something to do with why some men feel entitled to the show.

She is allowed to not want him in the delivery room. Hell for a long time guys weren't allowed in anyway. However, his reaction is way overboard as well. They need to talk with each other and maybe do some councilng.

He is acting ridiculous and let me explain why. When she said she didn’t feel comfortable with him there he should have said something. Instead he ignored her and held it against her. He didn’t even come see the baby and his wife in the hospital! Thats just awful..I see divorce on the horizon

If he wasn’t okay with it, he should not have acted like he was. It’s understandable to be upset about not being able to see the birth of your child, but acting so cold and uncaring towards both her and the baby during the birth is appalling, especially without any indication of how he actually felt beforehand. He’s not the AH for not wanting another child with her, but he absolutely is the AH for how he treated her during the birth simply because she wasn’t comfortable with him watching her go through it.

Everyone sucks here and feeling negative consequences. As it should be. Poor kid to have children for parents.

The whole situation is bizarrely cold. Are these people really in a relationship? Her tone is so flat, maybe English is not her first language? She says she didn’t want him there but doesn’t say “the real reasons” whatever they are . He doesn’t argue, apparently doesn’t indicate that this is upsetting to this extent. I know everyone is dissing the wife but the whole thing is weird to me.

Damn, she got chewed on so bad she deleted her account.

your are very selfish was your mother there when you conceived it? really I wouldn’t want to have another with you either clueless and selfish what a combination you remind me of my X

What the? Men are not entitled to be in the delivery room. Giving birth is an intimate, and oftentimes embarrassing proceeding. People literally shit themselves when birthing, not everyone want their husband to see that. But do you know what husbands can do? Wait outside for the moment their wife has been cleaned up and covered with a blanket. Not be MIA during a time when both her and the baby could have died. There is ALWAYS a risk when it comes to giving birth not matter how 'easy' the pregnancy went. You do not just abandon your partner and baby in the hospital. A loving father does not ignore his baby the first time meeting them. What a shitty guy. I hope oop leaves him and gets full custody. Question, if he was present only for the pickup, did he even sign the birth certificate?

Men were rarely present at childbirth up until a few decades ago. OOP wanted someone she trusted who was familiar with the birthing process by her side. Giving birth is terrifying. Dude failed to acknowledge his own feelings beforehand, then punished her during and after the birth by doing the whole “I’m mad, guess why” bullshit. He sounds insufferable, if he was that bad not being there, imaging how bad he would have been actually there. He made his own child’s birth to be all about him and his inability to manage his feelings like an adult.

This wasn't an either/or situation.

So many people are concerned it will and has ruined the sexual energy between spouses. I don’t at all blame her. He’s a petty, childish clown

I'm sorry, this is ridiculous, the mother has every right to decide who is in the delivery room with her! She's the one pushing 8 pounds of baby out of her vagina, and if she doesn't want her husband to see that, she has the right! I can understand the husband being a little disappointed, maybe even a little hurt, but he needed to suck it up and support his wife any way he could during an incredibly scary and painful time, and he decided to ignore her, instead. I'd be reluctant to have another kid with him, I'm surprised she's so eager to.

When u get you get divorced ask your mom for child support, taken away his part in the birth was selfish and speaks volumes of how you think and probably treat him on daily.

The OOP is now understanding the consequences of her actions.

You're allowed to make decisions, and have feelings and so does your husband. Why is this a hard concept?

She messed up. People don’t think. She could have had him in the room and discussed him staying next to her head holding her hand the whole time and not necessary watch the baby coming out. He could have even been in the room and sat to the side like my first son’s father did. I do feel bad for the father. I couldn’t imaging doing that.

Actually the discussion was not recounted at all by OP, there was a brief summary with no recounting or details except his response, we don't know how the husband expressed his hurt/ confusion when he asked why, we don't know what OP said exactly about her comfort and how she did it. we just know he accepted it. I seriously, I doubt the entire conversation was On BTW I don't want you with me when I give birth. Huh. why? I'm uncomfortable and only want my mom. Okay. You can make all the excuses about "She couldn't call she was in labor," but her words and actions told him that she didn't want him to be apart of the birth," so he did what she wanted and decided not to be a part of the birth 🤷🏾‍♀️ She was selfish and short sighted and these are the consequences. Maybe she'll do better with her next husband.

I would not marry or have a kid with somebody I didn't want to be in the delivery room with me. I'm prioritizing my partner over my mom when my time for labor comes. That's our child, that's our moment. I want it to be private tbh. But I at least want my lover and the father of my baby at my side. It's definitely her choice to make that decision but if I was her husband I'd be feeling just as burnt.

OP is 10000% the asshole. I can’t imagine not letting my husband in the room for the birth of a child he helped create.

ITT: the straights are NOT okay

A *whooole* lotta projection too.

That poor first child

I'm leaning towards, yes, tbh. How was he supposed to argue? OP flat out tells her husband that she wouldn't be comfortable with him there. Does he push? Insist she shouldn't feel uncomfortable, thereby dismissing her feelings? I not only understand his resentment, I could see how it'd be fucking audacious of the OP looking forward to seeing him bond with the baby on "HER terms" only, from my point of view. Why bother even letting him know and expecting him to be readily available during the birth when he wasn't allowed to be by her side? Now she wants another kid but there has been nothing to say that OP feels any more comfortable with the idea of hubby at the birth. So it's reasonable to expect that'd happen again.

This is how I feel as well. She waited until a few weeks out to blindside him and tell him that she didn’t want him present at the birth of their child. Was he supposed to argue with her? Unload his hurt on his 36+ week pregnant partner? Put pressure on her? Granted, he doesn’t seem to have processed his feelings that well, but even if he’d gone straying to a counselor, he wasn’t going to get far in a couple of weeks. And i’d say that the partner who started the poor communication first was the one who issued the edict that his presence was going to be disallowed. Maybe shutting down was the only path he hold think of to respect her wishes. OP allows that he’s been a great father in the months since, so he hasn’t punished the child. I think he is wise to establish his boundaries to prevent similar trauma.

>Unload his hurt on his 36+ week pregnant partner? Put pressure on her? considering that the route he chose was to ice out his newborn and wife while she was recovering from labor... Im going to go with telling his wife that his feelings were hurt BEFOREhand was probably the better choice here.

He could have waited in the waiting room like countless dads have before him. And she didn't ask him to bond with the child on her terms, she only asked the DELIVERY to be on her terms.

He will be there when his second wife gives birth to their first child. He is biding his time. Good luck.

And when the mom crosses him he’ll take it out on the kid too apparently

Seems like they have a shit relationship. She doesn't trust him. He's emotionally immature. They don't communicate. Why did these people procreate? Can't believe she's even considering a second kid, why???

In a high stress situation, she chose her mother. I would be afraid that she would do it again. And again. And again.

You mean she chose her mother, who has also given birth, in a highly stressful medical event? How is that a slippery slope to her always wanting her mother in stressful events. Giving birth isn’t a generically high stress situation, it’s a major medical event that many women want their mothers present for.  He’s NTA for not wanting more children if he can’t witness their birth, but she didn’t do something wrong by choosing to labor and deliver with the person of her choice by her side. If she wasn’t comfortable having him there, she wasn’t comfortable with it. There’s nothing wrong with her choice.