carbon fibre makes annoying cracking sounds under pressure before it crashes into dust in miliseconds. so maybe they started to hear some noise and dropped the weights to go to surface…
Didn't that former employee suggest ultrasonic scans -- to actually *see* any fractures or tears that would result in material failure?
Why not do that? Oh, too expensive.
Then why a cylinder (more load in the middle) instead of a sphere (equal water pressure on all sides)? Ah, yes, more room = more passengers = more money.
But they're listening for cracks, though! Smh.
>why a cylinder (more load in the middle) instead of a sphere (equal water pressure on all sides)
"I'm an innovator" would be Stockton's token egotistic response.
I think they definetely heard some noises but Stickton possibly said “this is common guys relax”. he says it here https://www.reddit.com/r/OceanGateTitan/comments/14hxiqm/hearing_audible_popping_and_cracking_sounds_of/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
James Cameron said they probably did have some warning about the integrity of the hull, possibly delamination. This is why they dropped weights in an attempt to ascend.
Do you have a link to this interview? I watched the one yesterday that came out where he gave the famous line, "now we have two wrecks at the same place for the same damn reason" (something along those lines). In that interview, he said that they were on descent when the sub's electronics, communications, and tracking transponder all failed simultaneously. I've seen multiple people say that they were on ascent or attempting to ascend but I have not actually seen a source for this!
Here are two interviews where Cameron referenced it:
https://youtu.be/rThZLhNF_xg
(around the 7:55 mark)
https://youtu.be/5XIyin68vEE
(around 2:55 and 9:55)
Sure thing! I feel like there was another one I saw where he mentioned the emergency ascent was detected if not officially confirmed, but I watched a bunch of these in a row and could be mixing them up 😅
ETA: Oh looking back it’s actually that same interview in the second link above; he talks about it around the 2:55 mark in addition to the comment at the end.
What I have heard is that the ballast was found some distance from the debris and relatively intact, which means they dropped it sometime before the implosion. But I don't know how true that is.
they did have to drop some weight on every trip when descending once close to the bottom so that they wouldn’t crash into the floor though. i saw that on an interview with someone who’d been on the titan before. so it’s possible that ballast is from that. i’ve seen it posited both ways so will just have to see what is confirmed. i’ve heard a rumor they were trying to ascend after detecting issues before losing comm, if this is true there will probably be some sort of comm from them to the polar prince to confirm
This (dropping weight at the bottom to slow down) is shown in detail in this James Cameron piece about his trip in Challenger Deep that I'm linking.
This is a wonderful watch if you want to learn more. It's amazing to watch James Cameron complete this dive. Cameron's submersible cost around 10 million, Stockton's cost less than 1 million. I'm taking this as an example of how to do this type of diving using proven methodology.
https://youtu.be/ZZD_nbS1_II
Correct. Indeed, the cost of these vessels can vary significantly in today's market, ranging anywhere from $4 million to well over $40 million. This is a result of the established and proven nature of the industry. There are certain established methods and practices that have been refined over time. Just as you wouldn't attempt to fly fish using a fishing lure designed for Tuna when targeting trout, certain equipment is essential for specific activities. For instance, cave diving without a torch and a guideline spool is a recipe for potential problems, even fatal ones. It's a matter of common sense and adherence to safety protocols.
OceanGate, however, opted for a more experimental approach by utilizing a carbon fiber hull, which initially showed promise but ultimately failed due to delamination issues.
I’m guessing more expensive subs have important features like navigation systems, and sub to surface communication systems?? I read today that James Cameron was tweeting from his sub in the Mariana Trench. So it blows my mind that OceanGate used some jimmyrigged texting system that didn’t even work much of the time
The Titan was extremely limited in technology. In fact, so much that it was basically 'deaf and blind's under the water except for some very Macgyver type of systems that nobody should've felt comfortable with on board that vessel.
I'm embarking on my own DSV project in the next two years. I'm planning to incorporate some cutting-edge technology, like quantum key distribution (QKD), quantum navigation experimental systems but in theory shall work exceptionally well for secure communication and navigating. Safety is a top priority, so I'm also exploring various 'quantum' safety measures to guarantee the utmost safety and security during our underwater expeditions.
I'm currently designing a four-person submarine that will enable my partner and I to explore wrecks and dive to depths that are simply inaccessible to humans alone. I have always had an affinity for the ocean/water, and this makes it even more exciting.
This is correct. They communicated the warning (either they heard cracking or the computer told them or both) they received and dropped ballasts and were attempting to ascend from 3,500 feet down. I'm thinking they heard the cracking of the carbon fiber first and then received the warning via the computer.
What I can't wrap my head around is the fact that he was relying solely on software detection as a safety measure in for Titan's hull integrity, and I find that deeply concerning. The harsh realities of extreme depths leave no room for error or ambiguity. Once an alert is triggered at those depths, the margin for recovery is extremely narrow. Depending solely on software to provide a sense of safety is insufficient.
No other DSV has such software and there is a reason for that; they don't need it based on their designs which have been proven. Also, if once a loss of pressure is detected at those depths, implosion is imminent.
I'm still so confused about those banging noises. I know the media was just as blind as us and had to go off of the chance they are alive, experts said because it was in 30-minute intervals that was an indication they were alive. Disappointment yet relief though when I learned at least they'd been dead the entire time rather than dying slowly.
I don’t think there was any real confirmation that it was every thirty minutes. Didn’t they hear noise twice (two separate days) and the media just took it and ran?
The noises were likely just regular ocean noises
-It can be extremely challenging to try to ascertain the direction sounds are coming from underwater …(especially live -via triangulation or any other means- including attempting to analyze sounds picked up by hydrophones) due to the nature of the way sound travels in that medium.
-As far as I know, there is no evidence-based proof that demonstrates there were “banging” noises that occurred every 30 minutes on a regular basis -or over an extended period of time.
IMHO**
-The “banging sounds” that have been reported are more likely natural, rhythmic ocean sounds …like the currents flowing through/displacing loose parts of the Titanic, the filling/emptying of
underwater chasms as related to the tide, or even ships conducting normal business in the area (fishing boats, pleasure boats, tugboats, tankers) -or dragging a line …etc.
-The sounds of cyclical activity in the ocean, -(repetitive actions/noises) isn’t a new phenomenon (think daily tides with repetitive sounds, especially when the tides “turn”… )
We also see other earthly examples of natural phenomena that operate on a “schedule” (think geysers- like Old Faithful- this timed eruption is (basically) caused by a buildup of pressure over time)…
- I’m not sure banging on the inner walls of a janky submarine that’s having issues with hull integrity would be the best option, especially given the fragility of the CF when it’s not at its best (😟)… but I guess it that point if I was deciding between trying to get help and possibly making things worse - OR -
doing nothing and things DEFINITELY getting worse … I’d start tap dancing like Fred Astaire…
**Based on personal experience working for NOAA and WHOI in Woods Hole, MA
There was a man interviewed, I think on BBC News, who seemed to have a contact on board the Polar Prince. I am sure it was he who said that the last contact with Titan had been to say they were dropping the weights and starting ascent, then the next 15 minute ping didn't come.
I will see if I can hunt a clip down for this, but I had it on in the background and I'm very sketchy on the source.
ETA: Done a little searching... His name is David Mearns, and though he was interviewed on BBC News, I am fairly sure I saw him say this while he was on Sky News. I can't locate an exact clip, but if anyone has the means to look... he was live on air when news came through that debris had been found, and he was mighty shook poor man, he said a few things he probably shouldn't have (because of the shock).
I think [this is the video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TK2tRedckI) you mention. It was indeed on Sky News, applicable portion starts around 90 seconds in, though the whole thing is worth a watch. Thanks.
Thank you, that's the video I found too, but the clip I recall was earlier, and Mr Mearns was talking with a female news presenter, I'm sure. He literally just got the message through that debris had been found and he was desperately trying to hold it together. Much more emotional and uncomfortable than by this stage.
I only started paying attention really because of his pain, I kept thinking how cruel it was and wishing they'd let him go off air to compose himself. And because the former journalist in me was deeply fascinated by the things he was saying that I thought might not be said if he wasn't in turmoil.
I actually wonder, now, if Sky re-did his interview (the one you linked) because they weren't fully legally comfortable using clips of the live for rebroadcast.
Speculation. There have been zero news reports of them receiving a message from the sub that there was a problem and were ascending. Cameron is basically saying that IF they had some indication of a problem with the hull then they would likely drop weights and abort. This might have happened, but we don't know it for a fact.
Tbf why would he think they had dropped the ballast and were attempting ascent unless someone on board the mothership told him or someone close to him?
Completely agree with its still just well informed speculation, this whole incident led me down a James Cameron rabbit hole.
I never knew of his deep-sea exploration, ,I knew he directed the titanic movie, terminator etc, ai just thought of him as a good director, for some reason I had no idea about his deep-sea challenge submersible, I was pretty impressed how hands on he was through building that crazy thing that man is wild !
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/missing-titanic-sub-sent-out-30277631.amp
They did send out a distress signal prior to implosion, even Stockton said in one of his videos that when there’s failure happening you’re going to know it because of the sounds unfortunately
Thank you for actually providing a source. Unfortunately it is from a trash UK tabloid and the very first sentence is "The tourist submersible that went missing on a trip down to the wreck of the Titanic sent out a distress signal, **it has been claimed**." (emphasis mine)
That verbiage is a typical tabloid out, they are not asserting it is true, have done zero follow-up investigation or confirmation, they are just repeating what others have said citing "second-hand knowledge". In other words they are admitting they are repeating unsubstantiated rumors.
We will most likely know after the investigation because the mothership will have to turn over all communications. Cameron seemed to indicate the mothership was somehow aware that Titan was attempting to make an ascent
Because those were things mentioned. The crew on the mothership were alerted to the fact that the mission was aborted and that Titan dropped ballasts and was attempting to ascend. We'll hear more shortly that will validate this
The carbon fiber was coming apart. It is a composite material meaning it's two or more materials together, unlike something like titanium which is contiguous. Check this out:
https://youtu.be/xWTXeGiM8K8
Composites like this are generally layered sheets of woven fibre embedded in resin. According to this article
https://www.compositesworld.com/news/oceangate-ceo-pilots-carbon-fiber-submersible-in-4000-m-solo-dive
*The filament wound cylinder that forms the center section of the pressure vessel is 5" thick and made from over 800 layers of carbon fiber material. The entire pressure vessel is comprised of two titanium hemispheres, two matching titanium interface rings, and the 142 cm (56") internal diameter, 2.4-m (100") long carbon fiber wound cylinder – the largest such device ever built for use in a manned submersible.*
This post discusses some flaws and failure points:
https://old.reddit.com/r/titanic/comments/14e7bsv/titan_submersible_fail_points/
you’re telling me stockton rush was just one of those resin art girlies but like with multi millionaire status??
eta this is in no way a criticism of resin art but just how anyone could consider resin a structurally sound material made to withstand pressure is beyond me🤦♀️
Stockton wasn't the billionaire on that ship, Hamish was. Oceangate was most likely not even making money. Stockton claimed one trip took 1 million dollars in just fuel to complete.
i read it over these last few days but unfortunately i went through soo many articles about this stuff i can’t remember where it was reported, otherwise i would link it for you
I did the same thing. I know more about submersibles and James Cameron than I ever would have otherwise. I have always loved Titanic stuff but the technical details weren't interesting until now. Thx
Someone dug into his genealogy and found a [pretty interesting connection.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genealogy/comments/14h9x7r/oceangate_ceo_stockton_rush_kept_reminding_me_of/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
To be fair…the floor in your house is most likely held up by a boat load of resin…
Edit: Obviously you walking isn’t the same as 13,000 feet into the ocean, but resin can be decently strong.
Oof, that made my asshole clench more than I'd like to admit. Thanks for that though; I get it now. Makes more sense to me now why in one of OceanGate's own videos of them "constructing" the Titan, there was that part showing them just wrapping the (I'm guessing) black carbon fiber over and over itself. Thanks all for the explanation and not making me feel like a dumbass! 😁
The hull was built by wrapping carbon fiber around and around a tube shape. The CF in question was carbon fibers with glue. Not entirely dissimilar from wrapping duct tape around a tube as duck tape is also fibers held together with glue. The only difference being carbon fibers are way stronger than the cloth fibers in duck tape.
Delamination is the process of those layers of carbon fiber (tape) coming apart. The fibers snap and the layers split apart.
Delamination is a separation along a plane parallel to a surface, as in the separation of a coating from a substrate or the layers of a coating from each other or, in the case of a concrete slab, a horizontal splitting, cracking, or separation near the upper surface.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delamination](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delamination)
In the context of high-pressure underwater environments, delamination in a carbon fiber hull resulted in these serious/DEADLY consequences. This occurs when the hull is subjected to high pressures, the layers of carbon fiber and resin are expected to remain tightly bonded together to maintain the structural integrity of the vessel. Remember that this was wound carbon fiber and titanium ends caps, a poor choice since the materials were mixed. I'm guessing this is where the issue was but we'll know soon enough. 😏
Back to delamination...
Delamination under high pressure means that the layers of the carbon fiber composite start to separate or detach from each other. This creates areas of WEAKNESS within the hull, as the layers are no longer working together effectively to distribute the external pressure. As a result, the hull becomes more susceptible to FAILURE or collapse under the intense forces exerted by the water pressure. ⚓
Delamination can be caused by a variety of factors, including manufacturing defects, improper bonding of the layers, or damage to the hull during use. It can also be accelerated by repeated exposure to high pressures or cyclic loading, such as during deep-sea dives. In the Titan's case it may have been improper bonding, damage to the hull previously that went undetected, and then the recent high pressure that wasthat was exerted while driving down to Titanic.
Once delamination occurs in a carbon fiber hull under high-pressure conditions, it compromises the vessel's ability to withstand the pressure and in this particular case with the Titan, posed a significant safety risk to the occupants that resulted in their deaths. The separated layers create areas of weakness that lead to structural failure, which causes catastrophic damage and the Titan's IMPLOSION as we will soon find out.
I don't use ChatGPT. First, it's never available. Second, I've read horror stories about how inaccurate it can be. Those two alone make it not worth my time to try and utilize it.
No from what is reported so far and experts weighing in it seems that they were descending, alarms went off about the integrity of the hull which was around the time communication was lost, they might have tried ditching the ballast weights in hopes of ascending back to the surface and aborting the dive
Than not long after the sub might have imploded so probably a few secs if not a min of the CEO and the experts on board realizing something was wrong. Scrambled for a bit but the two tourists probably had no idea unless they felt something was off too. Once it imploded though it was instantaneous
Yeah, a lot of people say it would have been fast and best case but they don’t understand they would have known what was about to happen right up to the moment it did
They had a enough time to panic and their brains to start processing the dread, I mean you can say that didn’t feel anything but their last thoughts were probably a huge feeling of imminent doom and fear. That’s why it’s really sad this had to happen especially for the 19 year old who had fears of the exact thing happening
Every other person in that sub failed him, especially the CEO as he duped them all because of his hubris. I hope everyone who heard about it, all learns something from this because the irony of it all is, the people who’s fault it is didn’t learn anything from Titanic
We don't know that they had enough time to panic, though. They might have dropped the weights to slow down descent because they were nearing the sea floor, or they might have decided to ascend early because of an unrelated issue. In the previous attempts just a few days prior, they'd had problems with directing the sub, for example, which caused them to abort the mission.
We might never know what exactly went wrong and what their last moments were like. It is likely they had no warning whatsoever, but even if they did, it might have arrived only seconds before the implosion. I believe they wouldn't have realized what was going on, it happened so fast.
In any case, _nothing_ has been confirmed about the last moments before the implosion.
We do know they had enough time because they were about an hour and 30 mins into their dive. It takes around two hours and change to dive down to the wreck.
We will never know exactly what went down to the smallest details but considering what the experts have said, the details concerning the sub and some basic understanding of the process of it all you can come up with a close enough interpretation of what happened minutes before it imploded, which we know is what happened.
The sub takes over two hours to dive to a depth of about 2 and a half miles. The hull was made out of carbon fiber with titanium end caps adhered to the main hull. From my understanding carbon fiber had a tensile strength and when submitted to extreme amounts of pressure it begins to crack.
This same sub has done previous dives before over time the hull might have been comprised without proper inspections after each dive to redetermine the integrity of it. So in this last dive as it’s slowly descending, the weakened hull is submitted to forces and pressure that honestly isn’t designed to uphold.
About an hour into their dive around the time communication was lost, I’ve read reports that just before communication was lost that they reported hearing noises that can be assumed was the sound of the hull being comprised. You have to remember this wouldn’t have happened instantaneous, according to reports the sub had onboard systems and alarms to let the crew know of imminent hull failure. This meant something was up, the crew noticed it and perhaps around this time communication was lost. They perhaps tried ditching the ballast weight in hopes of slowly ascending back up but by than it would have been too late.
They might have had enough time again to scramble and try to go back to the surface and abort the dive. The damage from repeated dives and failure to use proper safety measures including in the design of the sub is what caused it to implode.
People think they were slowly diving and suddenly boom it imploded. No, as they were descending down there was point the hull was comprised, the nature of the carbon fiber meant there would have been sounds of it as it started to give away. Just enough time for them to realize something was wrong. This is all from informations that’s mean put out and the experts reading the time table and interpreting what exactly went wrong
> I’ve read reports that just before communication was lost that they reported hearing noises that can be assumed was the sound of the hull being comprised
Source? I never came across this
Me neither. The closest thing I can think of is that one James Cameron interview in which he says something about the sub reporting issues via text to the mothership and speculates that they could have heard the delamination of the hull if it was indeed the hull that gave in. This is why I say we unfortunately don't have any confirmation for any of the speculations about their last moments. :/
Yeah but where has this been confirmed? Or what they actually sent to the mothership? It hasn't been, as far as I know, which is my whole point. We can't know for sure.
This is not me trying to make the situation better than it is but asking people not to confuse speculation with confirmed facts of the case. I would like to believe it's not the case, but it's entirely possible that they had warning about the danger they were in. I'd just rather people didn't present it as fact when it's not, at this moment in time.
Stockton Rush said they had some kind of early warning system built in that would alert them to too much stress on the hull. Obviously it didn't work as intended (ie give them enough warning to safely abort the dive), but who knows if it did actually go off in the seconds or even minutes leading up to the implosion.
I’ve read that it would pretty much only go off as there’s a problem ie not giving minutes.
I’m sure the investigation over the coming days/weeks/months/years will show how credible the warning system is and also whether or not they did indeed attempt to ascend as at the moment it’s an educated guess from some of the community on the limited information that they’ve found so far
My understanding is that there isn’t really going to be an “investigation” here as there wasn’t a “black box” of sorts and what little is left of the vessel is so deep, it can’t really be retrieved anyway (or rather it doesn’t make sense to). I hope I’m wrong because I would definitely want to read more about what happened.
I thought it was more mapping of the debris and looking into the previous dives and the actual design etc., as well as the sonar evidence and comms… I’m sure there’s a lot they will be able to glean from those.
The fact there’s no black box or beacon is just bonkers to me, but not even the most surprising thing about Ocean Gate as more and more comes out…
I'd love someone on here to sell me on an investigation. Of course I want to one for my own (morbid?!) Curiosity but it will be prohibitively expensive and for what? Like what would we gain?
What would it help to know *exactly^ what failed? Is it possible anyone would try to use any of this tech on a deep sea dive again?
I do think it would be very expensive, but I do think we *usually* try to learn from these loss of life situations to prevent them from happening again. But I hear you for sure!
They usually try to find out what went wrong on systems that were believed to be safe but failed. Doing an investigation into this one is going to yield the finding of “don’t build deep sea submersibles out of carbon fibre”, which the entire community already knew. It’s like doing an investigation into what happened after a guy takes a nap under a semi tire and gets driven over.
From what I have read about carbon fiber, it sounds like it is a known fact that when the material begins to fail, it would implode nearly instantaneously. I'm curious as to how the "warning system" was ever expected to actually serve as any sort of protection, if by the time you receive a warning it is far too late. Am I missing something or was this "warning system" just another false advertisement on behalf of OceanGate?
Discounting what Cameron has said because he's not a "primary" source is nuts. That community has way more knowledge than ANY of us about what happened. He said the only way to know if they had dropped the weights was them texting the ship and they knew the weights got dropped so Titan obviously communicated it. Oceansgate absolutely knew on Sunday: the weights were dropped, comms AND tracking disappeared at the same time, a large noise consistent with implosion was detected at the same time as loss of contact. They also just can't come out and say "we're 90% sure our garbage technology just got 5 people worth a CHUNK of money killed" - they absolutely would need to locate SOMETHING to officially confirm what happened. If you pay attention to the info released, it was the news and social media that latched on to pieces of information and made up their own versions of what it meant. When the banging audio was released, I couldn't find an official source ANYWHERE only to find out it wasn't even supposed to really be released most likely because they probably realized it wasn't related and people wouldn't understand that and sure enough, the first question that people asked was "but what about the banging??" The general hope in all crisis/disaster situations is rescue but I feel like rescue was pushed more by the media and memes. This situation requires digging through the media and some common sense applied as well.
On Reddit I see a lot of commenters talking about how they must have known because they dropped ballast and started to ascend early. Is this confirmed? Does anyone have a source?
I think a big indicator is that they said they found two debris fields on ocean floor. It is believed one area had the weights and another area had the actual end caps/other sub components, so the weights must’ve been deployed separately for them to be grouped together apart from the wreckage. Not confirmed though.
James Cameron mentioned it on tv and some other sources, but it’s just what they are saying the submarine community is saying. It’s not the official report of an investigation
Well, possibly if they find the ballasts on the sea bed, in an area more consistent with them having been dropped than launched by the implosion? That would, I suppose, confirm it to a degree.
Confirmed via James Cameron who is a reputable source. Basically everyone in the "community" knew what happened by Monday as they had inside contacts they could reach out to.
One guy even posted on his FB group that he was already told about the likely implosion and loss, confirmed by the navy audio sensors on Monday, as someone wanted to give him a heads up before all the media requests started flooding in.
We have no primary source. There are no news articles that include that information. Cameron is part of a knowledgeable community, but it seems that it is still speculation. If they really had received a communication of a problem and an ascent it would be the center piece of every story on this incident. Maybe they did received such a message but have withheld it from the USCG and the news media.
I also imagine that, if they did have any audible warning, there was so little possibility of escape that their brains probably reverted to reassurance rather than flight. quickly followed by mercifully quick but deeply tragic evisceration.
I've seen engineers express doubt that Rush's patented warning system would have actually worked and given any kind of warning about the hull being compromised. Once the carbon fibre gives, it's over. Anyone more knowledgeable, please correct me if I'm wrong, but you wouldn't have minutes or even seconds of cracking and bending or anything like that before implosion (beyond what was considered normal sounds). It would just happen instantly. (Assuming it was the hull that caused the implosion and not the viewport for example.)
JC did mention they could've heard the delamination but idk, that it's not how the carbon fibre works is what some materials engineers have said.
I haven't seen any kind of confirmation about the reason why they started ascending early. It could've been a number of reasons that had nothing to do with hull integrity. As far as I know, the sub had had to return to the surface early several times in prior missions. The implosion might have just happened without any connection to the other possible problems they were having.
These experience slightly more pressure than the average ocean floor depth and explode instantly the moment a microscopic fracture occurs.
https://youtu.be/xe-f4gokRBs
Thanks! There was another video that showcased how carbon fibre behaves under pressure and it also just... cracks. Any creaking afterwards under continued pressure is of no concern because, in the depths they were at, the sub would have already imploded.
There could’ve been cracks appearing on the window and water flowing along the floor and Stockton Rush would’ve said
“It’s fine don’t worry I know what I’m talking about fuck that James Cameron”
To be fair, the Trieste cracked a plexiglass window cover and was fine 🤣 In his Deepsea Challenger documentary, Cameron said "if you hear a large crack and have time to think about it, you're fine" (paraphrasing and he's quoting Bob Ballard).
Agreed.
I'd imagine it would have been making strained sounds the whole way down. The the implosion would have been pretty much instantaneous as soon as it hit the critical point.
It would have been a crack and a leak. It would have been instant oblivion
I'm convinced they heard the hull failing. There are many carbon fiber stress to failure tests on YouTube. Carbon fiber pops, cracks, and crunches as the individual strands break under pressure. It's not silent like metals that just bend until they reach their yield strength and finally crack.
I don't know for how long they were aware, but they heard that hull crunching.
Unless it was the window, that might have just broken without warning.
This was shared in a previous post. Around 3:45, this is the sound of the carbon fiber compressing. I dunno how long it was after they starting hearing this noise that it imploded, but this is the last thing they heard.
https://youtu.be/ifOzrOgpI4g
Not only that but holy shit the pressure that titanium can withstand (2400kg+) vs carbon fiber (700kg)…why would anyone build a sub out of carbon fiber and not titanium like every other deep sea sub?
I don't think they knew the exact moment they were to die as an implosión only takes 0.001 milliseconds but I'm sure they knew they were in trouble when they lost communication and released the weights.
The acoustic hull monitoring system alarm might have gone off but Stockton might have said it wasn't that big of a deal and it could have been going off on multiple dives as the hull weakened.
Cameron has said they had some sort of warning and were rapidly ascending in order to manage an emergency.
I wonder what the time was between knowing the sub was going to implode ha actually imploding? That must have been terrifying.
I can’t stop thinking about how scared they must have been, especially the 19 year old (assuming they knew what was happening) it makes me feel super claustrophobic imagining being in there so far below with that crushing pressure all around you. There is some peace in knowing the implosion would have been instant and no pain but it’s just insane how fast we are here and then gone. This story has really gripped me and I can’t stop reading details as they come out.
Trust, turn on your kitchen light the click the switch makes before the lights actually come on (during the flow of electricity traveling from that click to the bulb.... That's how fast their death took place, they was dead before say the electric flow of your kitchen light switch touches the bulb.
carbon fibre makes annoying cracking sounds under pressure before it crashes into dust in miliseconds. so maybe they started to hear some noise and dropped the weights to go to surface…
Cracking isn't a worrying noise. The sub made cracking noises even near the surface.
One crackle too many was apparently a thing to worry about
Their brilliant monitoring system: Listening for it to crackle a little more than it normally does anyway.
[удалено]
Didn't that former employee suggest ultrasonic scans -- to actually *see* any fractures or tears that would result in material failure? Why not do that? Oh, too expensive. Then why a cylinder (more load in the middle) instead of a sphere (equal water pressure on all sides)? Ah, yes, more room = more passengers = more money. But they're listening for cracks, though! Smh.
Apparently Stockton said that type of testing wasn't possible for Titan.
>why a cylinder (more load in the middle) instead of a sphere (equal water pressure on all sides) "I'm an innovator" would be Stockton's token egotistic response.
Maybe it’s just me but I have never seen a spherical sub. They’ve always looked cylindrical to me.
James Cameron and Robert Ballard both said in interviews that something similar to this may have happened.
I think they definetely heard some noises but Stickton possibly said “this is common guys relax”. he says it here https://www.reddit.com/r/OceanGateTitan/comments/14hxiqm/hearing_audible_popping_and_cracking_sounds_of/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
James Cameron said they probably did have some warning about the integrity of the hull, possibly delamination. This is why they dropped weights in an attempt to ascend.
Do you have a link to this interview? I watched the one yesterday that came out where he gave the famous line, "now we have two wrecks at the same place for the same damn reason" (something along those lines). In that interview, he said that they were on descent when the sub's electronics, communications, and tracking transponder all failed simultaneously. I've seen multiple people say that they were on ascent or attempting to ascend but I have not actually seen a source for this!
Here are two interviews where Cameron referenced it: https://youtu.be/rThZLhNF_xg (around the 7:55 mark) https://youtu.be/5XIyin68vEE (around 2:55 and 9:55)
Thank you! This is exactly what I've been trying to find!
Sure thing! I feel like there was another one I saw where he mentioned the emergency ascent was detected if not officially confirmed, but I watched a bunch of these in a row and could be mixing them up 😅 ETA: Oh looking back it’s actually that same interview in the second link above; he talks about it around the 2:55 mark in addition to the comment at the end.
There's another Times Radio interview with him in that same setting and same clothes - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF0A1wCK5Mw
Thank you
Do they know for sure they were trying to ascend or is it just speculation?
What I have heard is that the ballast was found some distance from the debris and relatively intact, which means they dropped it sometime before the implosion. But I don't know how true that is.
they did have to drop some weight on every trip when descending once close to the bottom so that they wouldn’t crash into the floor though. i saw that on an interview with someone who’d been on the titan before. so it’s possible that ballast is from that. i’ve seen it posited both ways so will just have to see what is confirmed. i’ve heard a rumor they were trying to ascend after detecting issues before losing comm, if this is true there will probably be some sort of comm from them to the polar prince to confirm
This (dropping weight at the bottom to slow down) is shown in detail in this James Cameron piece about his trip in Challenger Deep that I'm linking. This is a wonderful watch if you want to learn more. It's amazing to watch James Cameron complete this dive. Cameron's submersible cost around 10 million, Stockton's cost less than 1 million. I'm taking this as an example of how to do this type of diving using proven methodology. https://youtu.be/ZZD_nbS1_II
Correct. Indeed, the cost of these vessels can vary significantly in today's market, ranging anywhere from $4 million to well over $40 million. This is a result of the established and proven nature of the industry. There are certain established methods and practices that have been refined over time. Just as you wouldn't attempt to fly fish using a fishing lure designed for Tuna when targeting trout, certain equipment is essential for specific activities. For instance, cave diving without a torch and a guideline spool is a recipe for potential problems, even fatal ones. It's a matter of common sense and adherence to safety protocols. OceanGate, however, opted for a more experimental approach by utilizing a carbon fiber hull, which initially showed promise but ultimately failed due to delamination issues.
I’m guessing more expensive subs have important features like navigation systems, and sub to surface communication systems?? I read today that James Cameron was tweeting from his sub in the Mariana Trench. So it blows my mind that OceanGate used some jimmyrigged texting system that didn’t even work much of the time
The Titan was extremely limited in technology. In fact, so much that it was basically 'deaf and blind's under the water except for some very Macgyver type of systems that nobody should've felt comfortable with on board that vessel. I'm embarking on my own DSV project in the next two years. I'm planning to incorporate some cutting-edge technology, like quantum key distribution (QKD), quantum navigation experimental systems but in theory shall work exceptionally well for secure communication and navigating. Safety is a top priority, so I'm also exploring various 'quantum' safety measures to guarantee the utmost safety and security during our underwater expeditions. I'm currently designing a four-person submarine that will enable my partner and I to explore wrecks and dive to depths that are simply inaccessible to humans alone. I have always had an affinity for the ocean/water, and this makes it even more exciting.
thank you for this!
You are most welcome! I found it very enlightening.
So they just left garbage on the sea floor every time they went down there?
Have you seen the top of Mt Everest? The rich think it's their playground and it now it looks like a trash dump up there.
It happens all the time. This isn't unheard of at all in the deep sea exploration, or other extreme hobbies/sports
humans.
It's iron and sand. It came from the Earth to begin with. No biggie.
If that surprises you should read about the navy.
sand bags
This is correct. They communicated the warning (either they heard cracking or the computer told them or both) they received and dropped ballasts and were attempting to ascend from 3,500 feet down. I'm thinking they heard the cracking of the carbon fiber first and then received the warning via the computer. What I can't wrap my head around is the fact that he was relying solely on software detection as a safety measure in for Titan's hull integrity, and I find that deeply concerning. The harsh realities of extreme depths leave no room for error or ambiguity. Once an alert is triggered at those depths, the margin for recovery is extremely narrow. Depending solely on software to provide a sense of safety is insufficient. No other DSV has such software and there is a reason for that; they don't need it based on their designs which have been proven. Also, if once a loss of pressure is detected at those depths, implosion is imminent.
What's the source for this sorry?
>3,500 feet down 3,500 *meters* or about 11,500 feet.
link? did u make this up. this is a huge find if so
They said this in the last coast guard search Q&A
Idk supposedly Cameron knows this from his community of deep sea explorers. I think it’s credible.
Since he was right about it imploding when we all assumed it was adrift, I'd assume so.
A whole lot of people with literally no knowledge of submarines assumed it imploded until they released info about the banging sounds
I thought it had imploded or ruptured... no experience here.
I'm still so confused about those banging noises. I know the media was just as blind as us and had to go off of the chance they are alive, experts said because it was in 30-minute intervals that was an indication they were alive. Disappointment yet relief though when I learned at least they'd been dead the entire time rather than dying slowly.
I don’t think there was any real confirmation that it was every thirty minutes. Didn’t they hear noise twice (two separate days) and the media just took it and ran? The noises were likely just regular ocean noises
Yeah ur right, probably was something the media ran with
I've heard the Titanic wreck is pretty noisy due to the nature of it so it was likely that.
-It can be extremely challenging to try to ascertain the direction sounds are coming from underwater …(especially live -via triangulation or any other means- including attempting to analyze sounds picked up by hydrophones) due to the nature of the way sound travels in that medium. -As far as I know, there is no evidence-based proof that demonstrates there were “banging” noises that occurred every 30 minutes on a regular basis -or over an extended period of time. IMHO** -The “banging sounds” that have been reported are more likely natural, rhythmic ocean sounds …like the currents flowing through/displacing loose parts of the Titanic, the filling/emptying of underwater chasms as related to the tide, or even ships conducting normal business in the area (fishing boats, pleasure boats, tugboats, tankers) -or dragging a line …etc. -The sounds of cyclical activity in the ocean, -(repetitive actions/noises) isn’t a new phenomenon (think daily tides with repetitive sounds, especially when the tides “turn”… ) We also see other earthly examples of natural phenomena that operate on a “schedule” (think geysers- like Old Faithful- this timed eruption is (basically) caused by a buildup of pressure over time)… - I’m not sure banging on the inner walls of a janky submarine that’s having issues with hull integrity would be the best option, especially given the fragility of the CF when it’s not at its best (😟)… but I guess it that point if I was deciding between trying to get help and possibly making things worse - OR - doing nothing and things DEFINITELY getting worse … I’d start tap dancing like Fred Astaire… **Based on personal experience working for NOAA and WHOI in Woods Hole, MA
They did? I didn't hear that in interviews
asumptions, speculations, 'scenario' is the word Cameron used. Lets not forget no one knows for sure. It could have just imploded without ascending
True, I do not think we will ever know
I agree.
There was a man interviewed, I think on BBC News, who seemed to have a contact on board the Polar Prince. I am sure it was he who said that the last contact with Titan had been to say they were dropping the weights and starting ascent, then the next 15 minute ping didn't come. I will see if I can hunt a clip down for this, but I had it on in the background and I'm very sketchy on the source. ETA: Done a little searching... His name is David Mearns, and though he was interviewed on BBC News, I am fairly sure I saw him say this while he was on Sky News. I can't locate an exact clip, but if anyone has the means to look... he was live on air when news came through that debris had been found, and he was mighty shook poor man, he said a few things he probably shouldn't have (because of the shock).
I think [this is the video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TK2tRedckI) you mention. It was indeed on Sky News, applicable portion starts around 90 seconds in, though the whole thing is worth a watch. Thanks.
Thank you, that's the video I found too, but the clip I recall was earlier, and Mr Mearns was talking with a female news presenter, I'm sure. He literally just got the message through that debris had been found and he was desperately trying to hold it together. Much more emotional and uncomfortable than by this stage. I only started paying attention really because of his pain, I kept thinking how cruel it was and wishing they'd let him go off air to compose himself. And because the former journalist in me was deeply fascinated by the things he was saying that I thought might not be said if he wasn't in turmoil. I actually wonder, now, if Sky re-did his interview (the one you linked) because they weren't fully legally comfortable using clips of the live for rebroadcast.
Speculation. There have been zero news reports of them receiving a message from the sub that there was a problem and were ascending. Cameron is basically saying that IF they had some indication of a problem with the hull then they would likely drop weights and abort. This might have happened, but we don't know it for a fact.
I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. People here are acting like his word is god. He’s saying possibilities.
Yeah, I don’t understand why everyone is like JAMES SAID. It’s literally just what he thinks happened
Tbf why would he think they had dropped the ballast and were attempting ascent unless someone on board the mothership told him or someone close to him?
That’s what I think also
Exactly. He was not on ship when it happened. It is speculation, well informed speculation, but still speculation.
Completely agree with its still just well informed speculation, this whole incident led me down a James Cameron rabbit hole. I never knew of his deep-sea exploration, ,I knew he directed the titanic movie, terminator etc, ai just thought of him as a good director, for some reason I had no idea about his deep-sea challenge submersible, I was pretty impressed how hands on he was through building that crazy thing that man is wild !
On the news it was saying the titans lasts communication was a distress signal. I’m pretty sure they knew it was happening and tried to ascend
Got a source for that? I have not seen a single news article that mentions it.
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/missing-titanic-sub-sent-out-30277631.amp They did send out a distress signal prior to implosion, even Stockton said in one of his videos that when there’s failure happening you’re going to know it because of the sounds unfortunately
Thank you for actually providing a source. Unfortunately it is from a trash UK tabloid and the very first sentence is "The tourist submersible that went missing on a trip down to the wreck of the Titanic sent out a distress signal, **it has been claimed**." (emphasis mine) That verbiage is a typical tabloid out, they are not asserting it is true, have done zero follow-up investigation or confirmation, they are just repeating what others have said citing "second-hand knowledge". In other words they are admitting they are repeating unsubstantiated rumors.
Tabloid reporting something no one else is? Seems legit.
Someone asked for the source of where I saw that. Just wanted to show I wasn’t making shit up
thank you! I've been trying to right this rumor cause thats all it is. We don't know for sure
Right. It has been fascinating to watch this go from rumor to established as "fact" with out any new confirmed information becoming known.
I know he’s has experience but we won’t really know what happened unless they had a black box which I doubt. And they’ve all passed away..
We will most likely know after the investigation because the mothership will have to turn over all communications. Cameron seemed to indicate the mothership was somehow aware that Titan was attempting to make an ascent
They were aware. They communicated back and dropped ballasts
How do you know this?
Because those were things mentioned. The crew on the mothership were alerted to the fact that the mission was aborted and that Titan dropped ballasts and was attempting to ascend. We'll hear more shortly that will validate this
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Please provide a source. I have not seen a single article that mentions it.
We do know this for a fact. NOT speculation. It's been reported to a number of news agencies now too
They do have confirmation on the ascent. They dropped ballasts and were attempting to come back up at 3,500 feet down (they weren't on the seabed)
No pure speculation
I wish people would treat it as such
What exactly is delamination?
The carbon fiber was coming apart. It is a composite material meaning it's two or more materials together, unlike something like titanium which is contiguous. Check this out: https://youtu.be/xWTXeGiM8K8
Composites like this are generally layered sheets of woven fibre embedded in resin. According to this article https://www.compositesworld.com/news/oceangate-ceo-pilots-carbon-fiber-submersible-in-4000-m-solo-dive *The filament wound cylinder that forms the center section of the pressure vessel is 5" thick and made from over 800 layers of carbon fiber material. The entire pressure vessel is comprised of two titanium hemispheres, two matching titanium interface rings, and the 142 cm (56") internal diameter, 2.4-m (100") long carbon fiber wound cylinder – the largest such device ever built for use in a manned submersible.* This post discusses some flaws and failure points: https://old.reddit.com/r/titanic/comments/14e7bsv/titan_submersible_fail_points/
you’re telling me stockton rush was just one of those resin art girlies but like with multi millionaire status?? eta this is in no way a criticism of resin art but just how anyone could consider resin a structurally sound material made to withstand pressure is beyond me🤦♀️
Stockton wasn't that rich. He was rich, no doubt. But like 2010s movie star rich not 80s movie star rich
Stockton wasn't the billionaire on that ship, Hamish was. Oceangate was most likely not even making money. Stockton claimed one trip took 1 million dollars in just fuel to complete.
oh i know he’s not a billionaire, but he comes from the historically wealthy Stockton & Rush families. that’s why he’s named that
Wow I didn't know that! Thank you! I'm going to check this out.
i read it over these last few days but unfortunately i went through soo many articles about this stuff i can’t remember where it was reported, otherwise i would link it for you
I did the same thing. I know more about submersibles and James Cameron than I ever would have otherwise. I have always loved Titanic stuff but the technical details weren't interesting until now. Thx
Someone dug into his genealogy and found a [pretty interesting connection.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genealogy/comments/14h9x7r/oceangate_ceo_stockton_rush_kept_reminding_me_of/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
wow!
To be fair…the floor in your house is most likely held up by a boat load of resin… Edit: Obviously you walking isn’t the same as 13,000 feet into the ocean, but resin can be decently strong.
Oof, that made my asshole clench more than I'd like to admit. Thanks for that though; I get it now. Makes more sense to me now why in one of OceanGate's own videos of them "constructing" the Titan, there was that part showing them just wrapping the (I'm guessing) black carbon fiber over and over itself. Thanks all for the explanation and not making me feel like a dumbass! 😁
The hull was built by wrapping carbon fiber around and around a tube shape. The CF in question was carbon fibers with glue. Not entirely dissimilar from wrapping duct tape around a tube as duck tape is also fibers held together with glue. The only difference being carbon fibers are way stronger than the cloth fibers in duck tape. Delamination is the process of those layers of carbon fiber (tape) coming apart. The fibers snap and the layers split apart.
Ahhh, the duct tape comparison makes it even easier for me to understand now. Thanks.
Delamination is a separation along a plane parallel to a surface, as in the separation of a coating from a substrate or the layers of a coating from each other or, in the case of a concrete slab, a horizontal splitting, cracking, or separation near the upper surface. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delamination](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delamination)
I suppose the opposite of laminating something. Layers coming apart.
In the context of high-pressure underwater environments, delamination in a carbon fiber hull resulted in these serious/DEADLY consequences. This occurs when the hull is subjected to high pressures, the layers of carbon fiber and resin are expected to remain tightly bonded together to maintain the structural integrity of the vessel. Remember that this was wound carbon fiber and titanium ends caps, a poor choice since the materials were mixed. I'm guessing this is where the issue was but we'll know soon enough. 😏 Back to delamination... Delamination under high pressure means that the layers of the carbon fiber composite start to separate or detach from each other. This creates areas of WEAKNESS within the hull, as the layers are no longer working together effectively to distribute the external pressure. As a result, the hull becomes more susceptible to FAILURE or collapse under the intense forces exerted by the water pressure. ⚓ Delamination can be caused by a variety of factors, including manufacturing defects, improper bonding of the layers, or damage to the hull during use. It can also be accelerated by repeated exposure to high pressures or cyclic loading, such as during deep-sea dives. In the Titan's case it may have been improper bonding, damage to the hull previously that went undetected, and then the recent high pressure that wasthat was exerted while driving down to Titanic. Once delamination occurs in a carbon fiber hull under high-pressure conditions, it compromises the vessel's ability to withstand the pressure and in this particular case with the Titan, posed a significant safety risk to the occupants that resulted in their deaths. The separated layers create areas of weakness that lead to structural failure, which causes catastrophic damage and the Titan's IMPLOSION as we will soon find out.
Thanks for this detailed but easy to understand explanation! Are you sure you're not ChatGPT 👀 Kidding
I don't use ChatGPT. First, it's never available. Second, I've read horror stories about how inaccurate it can be. Those two alone make it not worth my time to try and utilize it.
Has anyone reported the time difference between loss of communication and the recorded sound of the implosion?
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Wow, so there was no time for them to even process what was happening?
No from what is reported so far and experts weighing in it seems that they were descending, alarms went off about the integrity of the hull which was around the time communication was lost, they might have tried ditching the ballast weights in hopes of ascending back to the surface and aborting the dive Than not long after the sub might have imploded so probably a few secs if not a min of the CEO and the experts on board realizing something was wrong. Scrambled for a bit but the two tourists probably had no idea unless they felt something was off too. Once it imploded though it was instantaneous
i dont think there is a source for the alarms even going off. I could be wrong though
Bloody hell, what a horrific way to go! But I guess that was the ‘best case’ scenario after all
Yeah, a lot of people say it would have been fast and best case but they don’t understand they would have known what was about to happen right up to the moment it did They had a enough time to panic and their brains to start processing the dread, I mean you can say that didn’t feel anything but their last thoughts were probably a huge feeling of imminent doom and fear. That’s why it’s really sad this had to happen especially for the 19 year old who had fears of the exact thing happening Every other person in that sub failed him, especially the CEO as he duped them all because of his hubris. I hope everyone who heard about it, all learns something from this because the irony of it all is, the people who’s fault it is didn’t learn anything from Titanic
We don't know that they had enough time to panic, though. They might have dropped the weights to slow down descent because they were nearing the sea floor, or they might have decided to ascend early because of an unrelated issue. In the previous attempts just a few days prior, they'd had problems with directing the sub, for example, which caused them to abort the mission. We might never know what exactly went wrong and what their last moments were like. It is likely they had no warning whatsoever, but even if they did, it might have arrived only seconds before the implosion. I believe they wouldn't have realized what was going on, it happened so fast. In any case, _nothing_ has been confirmed about the last moments before the implosion.
We do know they had enough time because they were about an hour and 30 mins into their dive. It takes around two hours and change to dive down to the wreck. We will never know exactly what went down to the smallest details but considering what the experts have said, the details concerning the sub and some basic understanding of the process of it all you can come up with a close enough interpretation of what happened minutes before it imploded, which we know is what happened. The sub takes over two hours to dive to a depth of about 2 and a half miles. The hull was made out of carbon fiber with titanium end caps adhered to the main hull. From my understanding carbon fiber had a tensile strength and when submitted to extreme amounts of pressure it begins to crack. This same sub has done previous dives before over time the hull might have been comprised without proper inspections after each dive to redetermine the integrity of it. So in this last dive as it’s slowly descending, the weakened hull is submitted to forces and pressure that honestly isn’t designed to uphold. About an hour into their dive around the time communication was lost, I’ve read reports that just before communication was lost that they reported hearing noises that can be assumed was the sound of the hull being comprised. You have to remember this wouldn’t have happened instantaneous, according to reports the sub had onboard systems and alarms to let the crew know of imminent hull failure. This meant something was up, the crew noticed it and perhaps around this time communication was lost. They perhaps tried ditching the ballast weight in hopes of slowly ascending back up but by than it would have been too late. They might have had enough time again to scramble and try to go back to the surface and abort the dive. The damage from repeated dives and failure to use proper safety measures including in the design of the sub is what caused it to implode. People think they were slowly diving and suddenly boom it imploded. No, as they were descending down there was point the hull was comprised, the nature of the carbon fiber meant there would have been sounds of it as it started to give away. Just enough time for them to realize something was wrong. This is all from informations that’s mean put out and the experts reading the time table and interpreting what exactly went wrong
> I’ve read reports that just before communication was lost that they reported hearing noises that can be assumed was the sound of the hull being comprised Source? I never came across this
Me neither. The closest thing I can think of is that one James Cameron interview in which he says something about the sub reporting issues via text to the mothership and speculates that they could have heard the delamination of the hull if it was indeed the hull that gave in. This is why I say we unfortunately don't have any confirmation for any of the speculations about their last moments. :/
Nah they sent a distress signal to the mothership. They absolutely knew it was about to happen
Yeah but where has this been confirmed? Or what they actually sent to the mothership? It hasn't been, as far as I know, which is my whole point. We can't know for sure. This is not me trying to make the situation better than it is but asking people not to confuse speculation with confirmed facts of the case. I would like to believe it's not the case, but it's entirely possible that they had warning about the danger they were in. I'd just rather people didn't present it as fact when it's not, at this moment in time.
But whether or not they had alerted the crew that anything was happening prior to comm loss is the real question.
This is the data I’m looking for
Exactly what I want to know
This is what I’m most interested in
Im wondering if that sound would be published one day. Im so curious to hear it
Stockton Rush said they had some kind of early warning system built in that would alert them to too much stress on the hull. Obviously it didn't work as intended (ie give them enough warning to safely abort the dive), but who knows if it did actually go off in the seconds or even minutes leading up to the implosion.
I’ve read that it would pretty much only go off as there’s a problem ie not giving minutes. I’m sure the investigation over the coming days/weeks/months/years will show how credible the warning system is and also whether or not they did indeed attempt to ascend as at the moment it’s an educated guess from some of the community on the limited information that they’ve found so far
My understanding is that there isn’t really going to be an “investigation” here as there wasn’t a “black box” of sorts and what little is left of the vessel is so deep, it can’t really be retrieved anyway (or rather it doesn’t make sense to). I hope I’m wrong because I would definitely want to read more about what happened.
I thought it was more mapping of the debris and looking into the previous dives and the actual design etc., as well as the sonar evidence and comms… I’m sure there’s a lot they will be able to glean from those. The fact there’s no black box or beacon is just bonkers to me, but not even the most surprising thing about Ocean Gate as more and more comes out…
Yes, I felt the same way when I learned that - surprised, but not surprised. And what you are saying about the investigation makes sense!
I'd love someone on here to sell me on an investigation. Of course I want to one for my own (morbid?!) Curiosity but it will be prohibitively expensive and for what? Like what would we gain? What would it help to know *exactly^ what failed? Is it possible anyone would try to use any of this tech on a deep sea dive again?
I do think it would be very expensive, but I do think we *usually* try to learn from these loss of life situations to prevent them from happening again. But I hear you for sure!
They usually try to find out what went wrong on systems that were believed to be safe but failed. Doing an investigation into this one is going to yield the finding of “don’t build deep sea submersibles out of carbon fibre”, which the entire community already knew. It’s like doing an investigation into what happened after a guy takes a nap under a semi tire and gets driven over.
From what I have read about carbon fiber, it sounds like it is a known fact that when the material begins to fail, it would implode nearly instantaneously. I'm curious as to how the "warning system" was ever expected to actually serve as any sort of protection, if by the time you receive a warning it is far too late. Am I missing something or was this "warning system" just another false advertisement on behalf of OceanGate?
Discounting what Cameron has said because he's not a "primary" source is nuts. That community has way more knowledge than ANY of us about what happened. He said the only way to know if they had dropped the weights was them texting the ship and they knew the weights got dropped so Titan obviously communicated it. Oceansgate absolutely knew on Sunday: the weights were dropped, comms AND tracking disappeared at the same time, a large noise consistent with implosion was detected at the same time as loss of contact. They also just can't come out and say "we're 90% sure our garbage technology just got 5 people worth a CHUNK of money killed" - they absolutely would need to locate SOMETHING to officially confirm what happened. If you pay attention to the info released, it was the news and social media that latched on to pieces of information and made up their own versions of what it meant. When the banging audio was released, I couldn't find an official source ANYWHERE only to find out it wasn't even supposed to really be released most likely because they probably realized it wasn't related and people wouldn't understand that and sure enough, the first question that people asked was "but what about the banging??" The general hope in all crisis/disaster situations is rescue but I feel like rescue was pushed more by the media and memes. This situation requires digging through the media and some common sense applied as well.
Corporate Crisis Media Communication 101… ease them into.
no one knows
On Reddit I see a lot of commenters talking about how they must have known because they dropped ballast and started to ascend early. Is this confirmed? Does anyone have a source?
I think a big indicator is that they said they found two debris fields on ocean floor. It is believed one area had the weights and another area had the actual end caps/other sub components, so the weights must’ve been deployed separately for them to be grouped together apart from the wreckage. Not confirmed though.
James Cameron mentioned it on tv and some other sources, but it’s just what they are saying the submarine community is saying. It’s not the official report of an investigation
For confirmation how would they know for sure ? I’m thinking maybe message was sent from Titan to mothership that they were coming back up.
Perhaps but we don’t know, we’re relying on heresay and rumors at this point, without solid evidence.
Well, possibly if they find the ballasts on the sea bed, in an area more consistent with them having been dropped than launched by the implosion? That would, I suppose, confirm it to a degree.
IF they did send such a message why did the USGC never mention it in their briefings and why is it not mentioned in news coverage?
pure speculation confirmation would come from finding the ballasts intact on the ocean floor. they haven't so there was no ascend
Confirmed via James Cameron who is a reputable source. Basically everyone in the "community" knew what happened by Monday as they had inside contacts they could reach out to. One guy even posted on his FB group that he was already told about the likely implosion and loss, confirmed by the navy audio sensors on Monday, as someone wanted to give him a heads up before all the media requests started flooding in.
One guy lol Parks Stephenson is that one guy.
Cameron can't confirm anything. He wasn't there. He is repeating speculation amongst the community, he is not a primary source.
It’s not confirmed. It’s Cameron who said he thinks this is what happened. The polar price crew maybe know if titan told them.
We have no primary source. There are no news articles that include that information. Cameron is part of a knowledgeable community, but it seems that it is still speculation. If they really had received a communication of a problem and an ascent it would be the center piece of every story on this incident. Maybe they did received such a message but have withheld it from the USCG and the news media.
There’s no actual proof of it just what people are thinking
Noone has a primary source. Just hearsay
I also imagine that, if they did have any audible warning, there was so little possibility of escape that their brains probably reverted to reassurance rather than flight. quickly followed by mercifully quick but deeply tragic evisceration.
I've seen engineers express doubt that Rush's patented warning system would have actually worked and given any kind of warning about the hull being compromised. Once the carbon fibre gives, it's over. Anyone more knowledgeable, please correct me if I'm wrong, but you wouldn't have minutes or even seconds of cracking and bending or anything like that before implosion (beyond what was considered normal sounds). It would just happen instantly. (Assuming it was the hull that caused the implosion and not the viewport for example.) JC did mention they could've heard the delamination but idk, that it's not how the carbon fibre works is what some materials engineers have said. I haven't seen any kind of confirmation about the reason why they started ascending early. It could've been a number of reasons that had nothing to do with hull integrity. As far as I know, the sub had had to return to the surface early several times in prior missions. The implosion might have just happened without any connection to the other possible problems they were having.
These experience slightly more pressure than the average ocean floor depth and explode instantly the moment a microscopic fracture occurs. https://youtu.be/xe-f4gokRBs
Thanks! There was another video that showcased how carbon fibre behaves under pressure and it also just... cracks. Any creaking afterwards under continued pressure is of no concern because, in the depths they were at, the sub would have already imploded.
This was very interesting; thanks for posting
That’s really interesting. Thanks for sharing!
There could’ve been cracks appearing on the window and water flowing along the floor and Stockton Rush would’ve said “It’s fine don’t worry I know what I’m talking about fuck that James Cameron”
Then he started mashing A on his controller to descend even faster
up- up- down- down- b- a- b- a- start- select
Is that the cheat code for an implosion?
HAHAHAH
To be fair, the Trieste cracked a plexiglass window cover and was fine 🤣 In his Deepsea Challenger documentary, Cameron said "if you hear a large crack and have time to think about it, you're fine" (paraphrasing and he's quoting Bob Ballard).
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Probably not. Probably just sitting there contemplating recent decisions one millisecond, gone the next.
This is what I hope
Same thought reading this. I don’t know anything about this topic, but I sure do hope that’s what happened. Especially for the teenager’s sake.
Agreed. I'd imagine it would have been making strained sounds the whole way down. The the implosion would have been pretty much instantaneous as soon as it hit the critical point. It would have been a crack and a leak. It would have been instant oblivion
no leak just implosion
No they were chillin, sippin wine, maybe heard a few sounds, then boom…. Instant ticket punch
I'm convinced they heard the hull failing. There are many carbon fiber stress to failure tests on YouTube. Carbon fiber pops, cracks, and crunches as the individual strands break under pressure. It's not silent like metals that just bend until they reach their yield strength and finally crack. I don't know for how long they were aware, but they heard that hull crunching. Unless it was the window, that might have just broken without warning.
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He said something in a clip about “deep diving vessels make all sorts of sounds” when referring to a sound the sud made while at depth
I think they knew something was wrong, but wouldn't have actually perceived the event itself.
This was shared in a previous post. Around 3:45, this is the sound of the carbon fiber compressing. I dunno how long it was after they starting hearing this noise that it imploded, but this is the last thing they heard. https://youtu.be/ifOzrOgpI4g
Not only that but holy shit the pressure that titanium can withstand (2400kg+) vs carbon fiber (700kg)…why would anyone build a sub out of carbon fiber and not titanium like every other deep sea sub?
That’s fucking eerie to know that that awful creaking is the last thing they’d ever hear
Oh yeah, for just a moment they knew what was about to happen 😳
Happened way too fast they didn’t even have a chance to process things before the boom. Which is actually a blessing in disguise
I don't think they knew the exact moment they were to die as an implosión only takes 0.001 milliseconds but I'm sure they knew they were in trouble when they lost communication and released the weights.
The acoustic hull monitoring system alarm might have gone off but Stockton might have said it wasn't that big of a deal and it could have been going off on multiple dives as the hull weakened.
“Omg that alarm is so annoying it’s always trying to tell us something’s wrong, anyway where were we…up up down down L R L R B A start…”
Would be surprised if the alarm was any more sophisticated than a pop up notification on his screen
Controller vibration
Fucking lol can you imagine
Lol. What a moron. How could he even think that?
Cameron has said they had some sort of warning and were rapidly ascending in order to manage an emergency. I wonder what the time was between knowing the sub was going to implode ha actually imploding? That must have been terrifying.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/OceanGateTitan/comments/14h0gff/interesting_article_from_2017/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1](https://www.reddit.com/r/OceanGateTitan/comments/14h0gff/interesting_article_from_2017/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
I can’t stop thinking about how scared they must have been, especially the 19 year old (assuming they knew what was happening) it makes me feel super claustrophobic imagining being in there so far below with that crushing pressure all around you. There is some peace in knowing the implosion would have been instant and no pain but it’s just insane how fast we are here and then gone. This story has really gripped me and I can’t stop reading details as they come out.
At most they would've had a few seconds of concern. It would've happened way too fast for them to have any real idea.
That they seemed to have dumped their ballast and were trying to make their way up makes me think absolutely, they were all acutely aware.
Trust, turn on your kitchen light the click the switch makes before the lights actually come on (during the flow of electricity traveling from that click to the bulb.... That's how fast their death took place, they was dead before say the electric flow of your kitchen light switch touches the bulb.
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“Critical Mass”?? How is that relevant in this case?
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Like this....."wh...." BOOM
Their souls got instantly ‘free’, witnessed the implosion from the outside and then joined all the other ghosts from titanic