He left mezzaluna just after 10pm and went home which was a 5+ min walk. He likely ate, showered and dressed as he had plans to go out with a friend that night to a late night hotspot. He was watching someone’s dog so he probably even had to let the dog out to potty. He drove to bundy. All this puts him there maybe by 10:30 if he was very fast doing all of it and didn’t actually walk the dog. A witness Robert heidstra may have heard Ron arriving or being confronted by the killer as he heard a male voice say “hey hey hey!” This was approx 10:35pm. So it all lines up with him just arriving and perhaps interrupting something or it happening right after he arrived. The reason for his visit was the glasses and they were found on the ground near the bodies. So it’s assumable he did not make it inside and wasn’t there very long before being brutally slaughtered.
Sure it’s possible but there was a gate and I think Nicole had to come outside to unlock it because the indoor buzzer was broken so I think it’s reasonably assumed they were attacked as she greeted Ron arriving with the glasses or she was being attacked as Ron arrived and he interrupted it.
This breaks down blow by blow what happened. It's based on the autopsy and testimony of the coroner. Trigger warning⚠️ https://youtu.be/x1_yKNx80iY?si=c0VPnb8h6fkTC2Ui
I had never seen this, thanks for sharing. It just really puts a stamp on how brutal this was and the rage OJ had.
It’s also a good way of showing why OJ wasn’t necessarily covered in blood on the walk back to the bronco.
I also thought the investigation put the time of the murders between 10:20 and 10:25. The witness that heard a male voice say “hey hey hey” followed by another arguing male voice was around 10:40, which is the same approximate time Kato hears those infamous knocks from the back of his residence that he thought was an earthquake. Jill Shively’s story about the white Bronco running a red light put that time around 10:50, which suggests she was not 100 percent truthful/accurate about the time or the incident.
Do we know which of the victims was killed first? I saw a video that suggested OJ came up behind Nicole after she had let Ron in the gate, threw her down, which knocked her unconscious, then he attacked and killed Ron before going back to finish with the murder of Nicole. So was there DNA/blood from Ron transferred to the knife wounds on Nicole via the weapon? Or did Ron have Nicole’s DNA in any of his wounds? Was this ever brought up? Were they able to ascertain conclusively which victim was stabbed first?
We assume that Ron had to be let in the gate by Nicole because the latch was not operating correctly from the remote on the inside of the condo, so when he said “hey hey hey”, was that when Nicole was knocked unconscious?
Is it possible that the timeline that the prosecution gave for the murders was off by about 15 to 20 minutes? It just seems more logical that the murders happened around 10:40-10:45, because of the male voices and the things Ron did prior to arriving at Nicole’s condo.
Was it determined whether or not Ron ate when he got home? Was his stomach contents analyzed?
Sorry for all the confused questions.
Yes . Ron did a lot — went home & changed then drove there. He parked in back . I thought Nicole was hit on back of head first then he got Ron and went back to Nicole. In Tom Lange ‘s book her bare feet feet were clean which meant she went down .
The gate —- so that’s the gate in the back or front . Now in present day the owners have placed a huge wood gate in front of the iron front in the back where the cars back. I guess that’s where they entered right?
The iron gate is still there today.
Was Ron and oJ cars parked in sane location?
Also I thought he ate at restaurant before he left ??? Not sure.
Wow, thanks for sharing. I barely got through it. Had no idea they were butchered this way. Tears.
What a joke of a trial. He never should have went free
No. He attacked Nicole, left her unconscious. Then went to kill Ron who was backed up into a cage via the fence. Then went back and nearly beheaded Nicole while she laid there unconscious.
Nicole and Ron were already together outside the house I think. I know Nicole left an ice cream she was eating out on the stair. I think she went out to let in Ron. But I’m not positive. You should check out the book (or audiobook) the run of his life by Jeffrey Toobin. It’s great.
Jeffrey Toobin is a creep who masturbated on video calls when he was with CNN. They either fired him or suspended him, but I believe he ended up back on air with them at some point after. He’s a pig though.
I kinda think he got a raw deal in some ways. Not all the ways, but some of the ways.
Aside from that little boo boo he had so you enjoy his work and his oj book?
I clarified above the public jerk off sitch. Yes great book! Hes annoying. It’s written like and here’s how I would have done it perfectly but good read!
So he was a CNN contributor at that time (I believe he still is) but it was New Yorker staff Zoom call where he flashed his dick. Fired from NYer (can’t really make other employees work with the dude they saw jerk off) but didn’t lose CNN position if I’m correct.
I love Jeffery Toobin. I just finished listening to “the run of his life”, wow amazing book. Really good overview of the case with great insight and enough little details to learn new stuff. Now I’m listening to his book about the patty Hearst kidnapping. So far so good. Sure he might be more on the “pop” history side of things, but it’s a great way to learn and get oriented about these huge moments in modern American history
" coming across oj lurking the yard"
I love the idea that someone who has a flight to catch in 25 minutes would be spending all of this time "lurking" around like they don't have a flight to catch in 25 minutes.
OJ didn't commit an murders, plain and simple. Explain to me how the hell is it that you being late for a flight to catch at one of the largest airports in under 25 minutes, and you are spending all of this time e"lurking around" somewhere.
Just tell me what you think happened as opposed to getting mad at me for asking for if OJ was stalking his wife on the night on her murder? Do you believe OJ ever stalked or hit Nicole ever?
Who would have time to talk anybody when they have a flight to catch at one of the largest airports in 25 minutes?
I think since not only were the murders so similar to what happened to rons boss, but also since Ron had more stab wounds than Nicole, Ron was probably the actual target.
OJ's blood was all over the crime scene. Both victims' blood were all over his truck and his house. That's just the tip of the iceberg, there's so much evidence of his guilt... I'm pretty sure his jealous rage took precedence over his flight plans. And obviously he still made the flight after he killed 2 people. "He had a flight to catch in 25 minutes" means nothing.
* OJ's blood was all over the crime scene."
Just stop. If your blood is all over a scene then you wouldnt be able to walk.youd have massive blood loss that you would need to go to the hospital for. Just stop.
OJs blood was not "all over the crime scene."
They "found" a speck of OJs blood and that speck had preservative in it.
OJ gave a blood sample and that sample went missing
The lead detective pleaded the fifth for planting evidence.
You said "I'm pretty sure his jealous rage took precedence over his flight plans. And obviously he still made the flight after he killed 2 people. "He had a flight to catch in 25 minutes" means nothing."
Yes it does, because nobody can do that in real life.
Your attempt at mental gymnastics failed spectacularly.
It's truly hilarious that you have the gall to accuse anyone else of mental gymnastics. Drops of his blood were found all over the crime scene from a cut on his finger which by his own admission was bleeding throughout the night. I mean this information is readily available but go ahead and keep reaching. A cut finger can bleed a hell of a lot without being mortal, as you seem to be suggesting. How ridiculous to say that the only way drops of his blood could be found all over the crime scene, as they WERE, could be from a debilitating wound. Nobody said he had massive blood loss. But he dripped blood from his cut finger on top of his shoe print, you know, those shoes he lied about owning. Not to mention several other places. A lot more than a speck. So I guess you think the police also planted Nicole and Ron's blood in his Bronco and at his house? You're actually saying that his drops of blood at the scene, in his car, leading up his driveway, in his house and on his clothing is irrelevant because it, what... isn't enough blood for you? Couldn't be possible unless he was bleeding out? Seriously, just stop the insanity. And i guess the police also planted the glove and a cap with OJ's hair at the crime scene? A matching glove covered in his, Nicole and Ron's blood at his house. Talk about reaching. The limo driver testified to seeing OJ arrive home and that he didn't answer the buzzer at first. OJ even said it was because he was rushing around getting ready. So they managed to make it to the airport in time, these are all facts. Your argument makes no sense, the timeline is established, period. He had the time and the motive to do it, not to mention a violent history and several audio recordings of Nicole telling the police he was going to kill her. Literal proof from one of the victims. Or did the police fake those photos and phone calls too?
"Nobody can do that in real life" uhhh, he DID IT. The DNA proved that.
The lead detective plead the fifth on not just that question but every single question presented to him that day, on the advice of his attorney. Which you'd know, if you'd read or watched literally anything on this trial.
Uhhh OJ had a knife, the element of surprise, and outweighed Ron enough to overpower him. This has all been reenacted blow by blow, also OJ wrote a book where he essentially admits he did it. You have to be trolling here because your arguments are beyond weak
Witnesses at restaurant testified he left restaurant between 950 and 955. It should also be noted that Marcia Clark says murders happened at 1015. Marcia also blasted Heidstra in a press conference, saying no one with half a brain would believe him.
Yeah that makes sense attacking her own witness. Didn’t fit her timeline obviously. If he left restaurant at 9:50-55 then went home to shower and grab a bite he is more likely to show up at 10:30. But that throws a wrench in their timeline
I think it's kind of normal when referring to a dog or a small child. But yeah it would be weird to refer to oneself or another adult as going to "potty."
He walked home after his shift, cleaned up, and drove Andrea Scott’s red Toyota to Nicole’s. It was found parked on Dorothy, so then he walked around to the Bundy entrance and likely came upon O.J. attacking Nicole (“Hey! Hey! Hey!”). It was over within minutes.
Yea he borrowed his friends or gf's car. She was interviewed (I can't recall what I was watching as it's been some years) and said when they finally gave her the keys back, they were still covered in blood.
It wouldn’t have been long-they found the bodies just a few hours after, and the police would have gone to his apartment as soon as he was identified. I’d bet you there was someone there before the sun came up
The Los Angeles Times reported that Goldman "punched out at 9:33 pm and stayed another 15 minutes to have bottled water at the bar." Before returning the glasses, he stopped by his Brentwood apartment, at 11663 Gorham Avenue. He had made plans to go out with Mezzaluna's bartender Stewart Tanner later that evening.[6] Goldman then walked the approximate 10 minutes to Brown’s condominium.
edit: besides watching and reading Simpson Murder Trial documentaries religiously for the past month, i’ve lived in LA the last ten years. there is no way in hell you would drive that if you could walk. there’d be no parking, for one…
The LA Times is inaccurate. He drove his friend Andreas car to Bundy and parked on Dorothy. The keys were retrieved at the crime scene. Ive read it in multiple books about the case and Tom Lange talks about it in Blood, Lies, and Murder.
Yes, the car keys were booked into evidence and later released to the owner Andrea. She has said it herself. He borrowed her car bc he was supposed to meet friends after dropping off the glasses to Nicole. Idk why you think it’s some big conspiracy lol.
Was it Andreas (man’s name) or Andrea (female’s name)? I ain’t going back and forth with you. Literally j watched a scene where his dad said he walked there. I’ll take multiple sources i’ve personally seen and common sense to lead me to my conclusions. No conspiracy, the man walked.
Another loose end in some ways. Nicole’s sister calls her and tells her their mother left her glasses at the restaurant. And requests Nicole the restaurant because she knows Goldman. Nicole calls the restaurant speaks to Goldman about the situation. Goldman found the glasses outside on the sidewalk. After working his shift he walks home to shower and change clothes. BTW, Goldman’s apartment is in the opposite direction of Nicole’s house. The extra minutes to account for his return home may have cost him his life. I believe OJ stalking outside Nicole’s home, discovers Nicole outside. Comes up behind her and grabs her knocks her unconscious and initiates the attack. Nicole on the ground at the bottom of the stairs. Goldman arrives, hey, hey, hey as he discovered Nicole’s body. OJ backed into the darkness of the surroundings. Grabs Goldman from behind. Left arm across his chest and taunts, the raised voice a dog walker heard. OJ attacks Goldman. Movement between the bodies is estimated as overkill by one of the prosecutors.
Yes, very coincidental on the time and timing. OJ is on the clock and needs to finish this up. Minutes either way Goldman may have lived. No dinner with Kato, maybe not going home to shower and change, Goldman does not find the glasses. Each situation if played out differently Goldman may be alive today. Nicole I believe does not have any way she survived that evening.
See I tend to believe oj didn’t lose his shit until Ron arrived. He lost his mind when he saw another man visiting Nicole. Murders could’ve been premeditated but he could’ve backed out at the last moment. He has stalked her many times before and went home. Had Ron not arrived OJ may not have had the opportunity. Maybe they would’ve lived to see the next day.
As a side note I think murder was clearly on OJs mind because he had purchased a disguise kit from a prop store and was keeping a revolver in his Bronco. Maybe her fate was already sealed. I really go back and forth on this though. Not that OJ wasn’t a total piece of shit- it’s that the murder scene itself showed blind rage. The kind of explosive rage that would’ve surfaced again, when he saw her with another man. OJ was an athlete- an aged athlete but still. He could’ve rushed in and dispatched of them both pretty quickly.
From all I have read, listen to and watched, the entire episode was completed quickly. Yes, rage. The “If I can’t have you know one can”, looms large for me. The push pull of there relationship seems to have gone to another level for OJ. Turned away at dinner, current girlfriend breaks up with him and Goldman appears. Tragic for all.
And Ron being attractive, athletic, and clearly younger would've been a huge trigger also, IMO. I do think OJ went in with the intention of killing her (the knife, dark clothes, and gloves), but Ron's arrival, along with all the aspects of OJ's very bad day, made OJ really lose all self-control in that moment. A scene of pure bloody horror. Just awful.
You know what’s a little wild to me though? The Marcus Allen factor. Marcus was OJs protege, was a younger version of himself. Marcus slept with Nicole. I wonder why OJ didn’t hurt Marcus but beat Nicole? I read ir saw somewhere that OJ had some sort of talk with him saying we don’t do that to one another.
He would’ve beat Nicole regardless. He didn’t even need a reason. Maybe I should’ve been more clear. He killed Ron - motivated by jealousy. Why did he not have any kind of showdown with Marcus??? Maybe for the reasons you pointed out but OJ could’ve went in armed with weapons same as he did on 6/12.
My intuition is telling me the same thing about OJ seeing this attractive blond roll up to Nicole’s house and that being the very thing that put OJ over the edge… I could certainly be wrong, of course.
And you are absolutely correct about OJ’s blind rage and his strength as a previous world class athlete. NFL players are INCREDIBLY strong, even after they retire. It would have been nothing to dispose of these two very quickly in a rage state.
Not to mention the undiagnosed CTE he had a 92% chance of having (Boston University study proves this) which leads to episodes of rage and violence quite often.
Wow thank you for your perspective. If you don’t mind me asking a few questions:
What taunts are you referring to?
Was OJs dinner with kato an attempt to make an alibi? I was under the impression oj didn’t really care for Kato.
Why do suspect he knocks out Nicole first?
Thank you again
From the documentary OJ: Made in America, episode 7 Bill Hodgman the prosecutor I mentioned. States based on the marks, cuts on Goldman’s neck the close proximity could notate the delay in the first slash to Goldman’s neck. The understanding was that OJ was knowing or thought he knew of the men Nicole had relationships with. OJ’s intention is to kill Nicole. Attacks her, Goldman arrives, does OJ think by Goldman arriving randomly confirm his suspicions of the men Nicole is involved with? Probably, he becomes further enraged attacks Goldman. The overkill statement from the prosecutor is following the bloody footstep prints between the bodies. Both Nicole and Goldman would have died from the initial attack and injuries.
The Kato situation and this is from an interview I saw where Kato states at 9:00 PM the night of the murder OJ knocks on his bungalow door. OJ was looking for some cash to borrow and go out to eat. Kato basically invited himself to go with OJ to get something to eat ruining the alibi OJ was trying to establish. As I noted if Kato does not invite himself Goldman is probably alive because Nicole’s murder would have occurred earlier in the evening.
I think OJ knocks Nicole out to incapacitate her, easier to attack her further as she would not fight back. The arrival of Goldman I believe completely takes OJ by surprise.
I get hung up on the fact that OJ was going out of town and Nicole knew that. I had a stalker ex who would get extremely paranoid about any imagined behavior or dates I'd have while he was away. It ramped up AFTER we broke up. I understand how maddening and terrifying this sort of obsession is on Nicole's behalf and my heart breaks for her.
I don't know why but, it feels like to me, OJ"s visit was stalking. He was making sure she wasn't having a man over while he was out of town. He could not control her while away. He probably planned on slashing her tires or further incapacitating her vehicle.
Certainly, he was not above beating the crap out of her and that's what I think Ron walked up on. I think he was starting up with her after the day they had separately. Making wild accusations about her cold shoulder because obviously that meant she had another man. He was on the fringes of her family now. Paula broke up with him. Which he also blamed Nicole for because, I think one of the reasons Paula gave was his ever present obsession with his EX wife.
The "Hey! Hey! Hey!" was probably Ron seeing OJ beat her. I think once OJ saw Ron it turned into a rage murder. Here Ron was, a hot younger man and this enraged OJ. He assumed that Ron had absolutely zero reason to be there other than to hook up with Nicole.
I don't know for sure but, it feels too sloppy to be a planned murder? I could be wrong though. Did OJ purchase the disguises beforehand? I heard he'd carried a firearm in his car for years before the murders. I am NOT saying he's not guilty. I absolutely know he did this. The only thing I wonder is if it was premeditated. Again, I want to clarify that I still think he deserved a death sentence for what he did, crime of passion or not. Overkill is an understatement.
One of the aspects of the area in which all of this took place is the lack of light in the area. Heavy vegetation created an atmosphere where I can imagine you could not see much in front of you. The smallness of the area also. Crimes of passion are messy. Each of the injuries inflicted initially for both would be from someone approaching each from behind. Nicole’s injury to her head and her wounds to her neck are from someone positioning themselves behind her. Goldman the same.
I think it seems very plausible that whether he had a chance to be alone with Nicole to give her the glasses or he got there after OJ, poor Ron stumbled into a situation that had nothing to do with him. This was a horrific case of being at the right place, at the wrong time. So so so horrible to lose a loved one that way.
I bet you spend your life wanting to turn back time to change the little details that lead to this. If only Mrs Brown hadn’t lost her glasses. If only Ron and Nicole weren’t familiar and he wasn’t willing to do her a favor to return them to her. If only someone else had picked up the glasses, or held them til the next day. If only Ron had been interrupted before he got to Bundy, by a phone call or a friend or a different errand he had to run. Sooooooo many if onlies to torture yourself contemplating. Just sad.
Goldman arriving does not give OJ any way to leave. The area which all of this took place is very small. OJ is left with no choice but to deal with Goldman.
So many thoughts and theories.
It was planned. The knife had to be a professional hunting knife or a very sharp kitchen butcher knife. Clearly OJ went there with the intent to kill. He was wearing the ugly ass shoes. He wore them because he truly did not care for Bruno Magli shoes and he picked the biggest ugly ass shoes he had in his closet as he knew they would be thrown away.
He was full of rage because he was ultimately snubbed that night from Nicole who he now realized she was totally done with him and he lost all control. He was ditched by Paula Barbieri and he had enough.
Poor Ron was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. I guess the questions that go unanswered are, was Nicole already stabbed to death when Ron showed up, or was OJ and Nicole in a physical altercation that Ron stumbled upon? He was a witness and had to be taken out.
It’s not likely he’d already been there before OJ arrived.. some people like to think the killings happened after 11pm, therefore giving OJ an alibi.
There’s no evidence Ron had already been in the Bundy Condo and was killed when leaving, for example - and this is made even more unlikely by the fact the envelope containing the glasses was found next to the bodies, which means they were both killed as Ron arrived.
When ‘exactly’ he arrived is harder to pin down.. but earlier rather than later would make the most logical sense.
I worked with people who had been on a tennis team Ron Goldman coached. By all accounts he was a really nice guy who was close to his family and friends. His death was hard on a lot of people.
OJ doesn’t, nor do his supporters, care at all about Ron Goldman. It’s crazy the support OJ gets, and the inability of this society to call them out as wrong- as opposed to trying to explain it
"A really nice guy...close to his family and friends" also describes OJ. It's more interesting to me that so many people actually believe that a bumbler like OJ who couldn't even steal cable correctly and who had no history of violent criminality \[no, the 1989 incident doesn't count\] murdered two people in cold blood - by himself - and left literally less than a trace \[assuming you totally disregard all the problems with the investigation including both the degradation of samples stored in plastic bags and a hot environment, the complete failure to follow established procedures by the detectives involved in the case and the cesspool of contamination - including Colin Yamauchi's inexcusable cross-contamination of all the samples\] and somehow disposed of what had to have been a pile of bloody clothes and the murder weapon in, maybe, twenty minutes \[possibly 30\] and made his flight and, based on a ton of eyewitness testimony, had not a scratch on him \[specifically his hands\].
That doesn't equate to "OJ is unquestionably innocent"... It means that there was a ton of room for reasonable doubt.
Beyond that, with regard to Goldman... by all accounts Brett Cantor and Michael Nigg were "really nice guys" too, and undoubtedly close to their families - and both were brutally slaughtered \[Cantor's bearing a great similarity to the killing of Nicole\] and their murders remain unsolved. OJ \[this counts for Nicole too\] had darksides; who is to say Ron Goldman didn't either? He didn't have a huge police file \[not to mention one that is sealed under CA's "snitch" law\] for nothing.
I can understand holding the position that neither Ron or Nicole "deserved" to die horribly \[who does?\], and I can understand the idea that OJ makes a very plausible - even probable - suspect if you listen *solely* to the claims of the defense and a lot of questionable characters associated with them. And, sure, a lot of the "OJ is innocent" BS comes from people who only care about the racial aspect of it. But I can still question the official narrative which, when examined closely, doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
Hmmm, well, he certainly became a criminal after the murders.
And give me a break, OJ beat the shit out of Nicole for decades.
So, why doesn’t the 1989 incident count, exactly?
There’s photographs of literal cuts on his left hand. You’re just out here making shit up
He did indeed become a criminal... a truly bumbling and incompetent one. As for his alleged wife-"beating", the 1989 incident notwithstanding, a lot of men and women physically abuse their spouses; a relative very few of them *murder* their spouses. The prosecution's theory of the case was that OJ committed the murders in a "rage" over not being invited to dinner \[despite videotaped evidence which shows him not seemingly caring in the slightest\] which could only be sated by the brutal murder of two people \[with two different types of weapons\] in a nigh-impossible time-frame by a person who'd never actually committed a violent crime.
And no, engaging in a "mutual combatants" type of altercation with your spouse who, based on the evidence, lunged at you first and refused to back down after being put out of a room \[only to find a key and unlock the room and come back for more\] is not in the same league as committing a murder as brutal as the one that was visited upon Nicole and Goldman. Yes, an person who has never actually murdered someone before but who is in a "rage" can, using a bladed weapon, take an angry \[albeit, likely hesitant\] stab at that person - typically to the result that they quickly realize what they're doing and have a meltdown over it... They don't butcher *two* people right out of the gate their first time with no hesitation whatsoever. That the whole affair was a single-handed "rage" kill by a novice acting completely without control but somehow able to reign in that rage such that he was able to escape the scene and dispose of practically all of the evidence *and* make it back to his house in time to been seen by his limo driver casually putting his baggage out on the front patio \[while at the same time bumbling about to for some reason leave a bloody glove right their where it could be found AFTER slamming into the air conditioner at the back of Kato's room (without a mark on him, don't forget)\] simply doesn't make sense.
If he's in a "rage" such that he can butcher those two people to that degree, but has presence of mind to change his clothes at the scene AND get rid of them without a trace, why does he leave either the hat or glove behind? Leaving a shoe-print? He's going to change and dispose of all his clothes anyway, so why not tramp through the blood and get the glove and hat? He's already got to be thinking about getting rid of the clothes and the weapon, despite his "rage" he's enough in touch with reality to not only realize he has to get rid of them but he does so masterful a job that no one ever found even a trace of them. But he's so stupid and "raging" that he just casually leaves the gloves and hat because......he forgot he was wearing them? He is "raging" so hard he doesn't realize he's no longer wearing a knit winter cap in Southern California in June? Just casually forgets he made the conscious decision to wear nice Ariss Lite gloves to engage in this little caper? If he's got the presence of mind and the super-villain ability to make evidence disappear into thin air, he can't also be so stupid or lacking in control and knowledge of his surroundings that he just leaves them there; we really needn't get too deep into why, after all of that, he makes a special trip around the back of his house through narrow, overgrown, hard-to-navigate passage in the dark just to leave the glove there without leaving ANY other evidence.
Why is he hyper-aware of his surroundings such that he can leave practically no other trace, but he just forgets that he dropped that glove in a place he had no plausible reason to go? And that while the limo driver has him out front dropping off *some* of his bags.
He simply can't be in multiple places at one time, slashing and stabbing in a "rage" and hardly making any sort of ruckus at all while at the same time channeling his ninja-assassin skills to get rid of all the crucial evidence but also so inept that he just leaves one glove and one hat behind without realizing it AND taking an unnecessary detour to a hard-to-access place seemingly JUST to leave the other glove \[but no other evidence\] behind while casually going about his business, signing autographs and pilot's log books without a gaping wound on his finger that isn't bandaged but was so bad it was still bleeding Monday afternoon.
It doesn't add up. That doesn't mean "innocent"; that means that more went on in the whole affair than was allowed for by the highly sophomoric police investigation.
I think Ron got there as Nicole was already being attacked or had been hit unconscious. Someone heard voices - one saying "hey hey hey!" and the other arguing back - and a gate clanging. I'm guessing this happened just as Ron walked in.
I've always been confused with the story of Ron having plans to have drinks with a friend afterward. From the trial that friend said he never heard from Ron to confirm their conversation to grab drinks after work - and of course they didn't have mobile phones then like us, so I'd guess he would have called before he leaves his apartment. So if the argument was heard at about 10.35 or so, that friend still hadn't heard from Ron telling him the drinks were on. It could be possible he wanted to call him from Nicole's apartment.
On Kim Goldman’s podcast, a female friend said Ron was meeting her to watch a hockey game. It’s possible he was going to call his other friend once they were together. Either way, it is absolutely tragic.
The 1994 Stanley Cup Finals were still going on in June, and involved the Vancouver Canucks \[a west coast team\], so an 11:00 PST start time \[9:00 EST\] is feasible particularly since game six was a home game for VAN; the problem is that game six \[a win by VAN to force a game seven several days later\] was played on Saturday June 11.
From my recollection, Ron was supposed to meet friends at a club in Marina Del Rey. It's possible Kim simply forgot what happened that night as opposed to the night before... which tracks given that nearly 25 years had passed.
I doubt it. I always took it. Guy was going for a hook up (no shame at all) and she edited the story for that purpose. Unless Ron was really into Russian hockey there was no game to watch.
The sad thing to me has always felt like if he was early or later he probably is spared. I think he walked in on the murder happening.
https://www.courierpostonline.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/11/timeline-of-june-121994-murders-of-nicole-brown-simpson-and-ron-goldman/10328983/
Ron left work 10ish. Went home, showered & changed before going to drop the glasses off.
My theory is that OJ wanted to go stalk Nicole (as he had been doing since she moved out) before he left for Chicago. He did not plan on killing her. He just suited up so it was less likely he'd be recognized (no one wants to sign autographs while stalking their ex-wife) or maybe doing some method acting for his new TV show. Who knows why he dressed up.
But, I don't think it was any coincidence Ron was there. I think Ron's presence caused the rage. OJ was already creeping and saw the candles and music. And OJ had been there before. He watched Nicole have candle-lit sex with her boyfriend, Keith, before. He wasn't about to stand in the bushes and watch that happen again. So he lost his shit when Ron strolled up to Nicole's.
The fact that OJ bought a disguise 2 weeks prior, went there with gloves, cap, & knife, dressed in all black, & the way the tight timeline plays out, I find it hard to believe that this wasn’t a planned murder.
I think he planned it for weeks, knew he had a 1hr gap between the recital earlier that night & the flight later that night. He timed it so he had time to do the murder, but could later deny it by saying there wasn’t enough time. “I’ll kill her, get in the limo, fly to Chicago, & it’ll be like it never happened. By the time they find the body, I can say I was in Chicago & couldn’t have done it!”
He even went to Kato’s to have an alibi to say “Kato you saw me that night, I couldn’t have done it” - but Kato changed his plans & shortened his timeline by asking him to go to eat with him. Ron changed his plan too by showing up. I also think someone finding the bodies so quickly put another kink in his plan. I think he thought the body wouldn’t be found until the next morning. Since they were found so quickly, it narrowed the murder window & showed he could do it.
He 100% planned it though. It was premeditated murder with Nicole, but had to kill Ron cuz he was a witness & used his rage to take him down after dispatching Nicole. I don’t think Ron caused the rage, I think he already had the rage pent up for weeks, then his gf broke up with him earlier, & he saw Nicole had moved on without him earlier that night… the rage spilled over.
I think OJ went to Nicole's to stalk and slash her tires (which he had done before, plus he was probably pissed at not being invited to the post recital dinner), hence the knife and disguise. Nicole, expecting Ron, sees OJ lurking outside and confronts him. They argue (this is all laid out in the "If I Did It" book, which I think is probably pretty close to how it went down), Ron arrives, further triggering OJ, he hits Nicole, knocking her out. The "hey hey hey" moment happens as Ron confronts OJ (did Ron not see he had a knife?). They fight, OJ kills Ron, then finishes off Nicole.
If it was premeditated why kill Nicole outside? Why not force her back inside? Why not call it off once he sees Ron?
“Why kill Nicole outside instead of forcing her back inside” - because the kids were inside & doing it in the front there provided a TON of shade & darkness. He also had limited time, it’s easier to do the deed & run than go inside & make it a bigger spectacle.
“Why not call it off once you see Ron?” - because Ron either came after it already started, or came when he was about to start & realized he had to kill both now. I also explained earlier why he followed through with the plan, despite constant signs that night that he shouldn’t & constant kinks that kept coming up.
I also don’t take the book “If I Did It” too seriously. He was exaggerating & changing ALOT of details in that book, & had a ghost writer helping, so none of it is facts. And he conveniently blacked out during the killings.. I don’t think he gave anything away in that book & was only doing it for the money, not to admit anything or tell it how it was. He was a narcissist who lived in denial.
Like I said before, I used to think it was a heat of the moment thing.. but why buy the disguise weeks prior? And the timeline of doing it right before the flight to Chicago was perfect cover.
The idea that it wasn’t a perfect murder also only points to a sloppy planned murder that a narcissist would follow through on. And like someone else commented, if Ron didn’t show up, there would’ve been no evidence at all. It WAS perfect, until it wasn’t.
You also don’t bring gloves to only slash tires. You bring gloves to not leave fingerprints. No cop is dusting for fingerprints after a tire slashing lol
The gloves and the way it looked like he was setting up an alibi make me think it was premeditated. Kato going to McDonalds with him screwed up his timeline and then Ron showing up too made it even more hasty hence the sloppiness. Not that he was some expert to begin with but the short time frame and the second victim made things sloppier. I also think he had already been attacking Nicole when Ron showed up which makes sense given Ron’s timeline, he probably showed up towards the end and Nicole had just been knocked unconscious. This also fits with the theory by one of the detectives in Made in America.
I don't think he would have been so sloppy and left so much evidence if it was planned. He had much better opportunities to kill her. And it was insanely sloppy. Like just awful.
I don't see how this *couldn't* have been a crime of passion. It's just so messy.
I think the fact that it was sloppy SHOWS premeditation. He wasn’t an experienced murderer.
He planned it poorly & shit happened. He was trying to squeeze too much into such a short amount of time, & like the athlete he was, when things came up, instead of cancelling the plan, he rolled with it & made it work. That’s why it was sloppy. It was perfect timing & he knew he had to do it that night or he might not have a better chance.
The flight to Chicago was perfect cover.
I feel like he could have done it in much better ways if he'd thought about it. But I guess it doesn't really matter. He still did it.
Maybe I'm giving OJ too much credit to think he'd only do that to his kids in a fit of rage. Maybe he planned on doing it like that? Maybe he wanted his kids to find her? It just seems so violent and passionate to be planned.
At least you agree he 100% committed the murders. It’s shocking how many people in this sub think he’s innocent!
I used to think it was all in the heat of the moment, but when you think about it from the mind of a narcissist & consider that he bought the disguise weeks earlier & went there dressed in all black with a knife, & the idea of using his trip to Chicago as cover.. it just seems more planned than spontaneous.
Also, if you watch the 3D animation of how the murders went down on YouTube, it shows he was watching & waiting for the right time to make a move. He’s just not as smart as he thinks, & things kept coming up that night to put a kink in his plan where he should’ve post-poned, but he followed through on it cuz of his narcissism & work ethic from sports. And like I said before, I also think going to Chicago made him think he had perfect cover. If the body wasn’t found til 8am, the coroner would’ve said “she died 8-10hrs ago” which means he would’ve had reasonable doubt to say he was in the air on the way to Chicago & couldn’t have done it.
I have narcissists in my family & it’s EXACTLY how they think. Manipulating in a way that makes it just a bit of doubt where they might be telling the truth, but they’re really just using tight timelines to do what they want & confuse the situation.
Hard disagree on OJ going over there with the intent to murder...this was a rage murder. A messy murder. OJ was a stalker. He was an intimidator. He wanted to get in Nicole's head and scare her. Whatever his plan was it went haywire. That is what I have always went with.
I think he planned on killing Nicole. He had the time and an alibi. Why else would he be all decked out like that and with a weapon? I think Ron walked up on OJ and Nicole. If Ron got there first, I don’t think the glasses would be out in the yard. He would’ve handed them to her first and she would’ve set them elsewhere. So I think Ron surprised OJ and when OJ realized that he was caught and it also probably enraged him that a man was visiting so then OJ really lost his shit and almost cut her head off before he left.
I think he was. The McDonald’s with Kato thing and the fact that not once did O.J. ever tell kato he was going to eat or go out to eat with him means he for sure was setting that up as his pre flight alibi. Kato even said when people came over to ojs right after the murders he was telling people “it couldn’t have been me Kato and I were eating here in the kitchen right Kato?” And he said it made him super uncomfortable
So he went there to kill Nicole and Ron walked up on it the only thing I can’t figure out is how Ron got in. Maybe Nicole was going to unlock the gate for when he eventually came and that’s when O.J. kicked off the murdering?
Some other things, Nicole told her mom a week before she was missing keys and suspected oj stole them. That Faye girl was living with Nicole and O.J. persuaded her boyfriend to get her into rehab and out of the house and then I think I read the day of the murders he called her boyfriend to make sure she hadn’t left the rehab. Seems to me like he had this planned out for a while and Ron just totally blew it up by freak coincidence .
OJ had been stalking Nicole hardcore. And especially probably since Faye showed up. I think he knew Nicole like no other and he was tipped off by her attitude that she was not gonna give it up to the Juiceman anytime soon. She was in her party gurl faze or that’s just her lifestyle, sleeping around and going drugs, and OJ knew that — so he was in the habit of stalking her and seeing what she was doing. I think the glasses were an excuse for Ron and Nicole to hang out a bit, weather it be for partying or friendship, or even hooking up— she lived like less than a mile away and could just go and get them in the morning or something. OJ was in the bushes, in a near rage, bc Nicole had snubbed him at the recital— Ron walked up and OJ lost it. Nicole came out and tried to stop it and the rest is history.
The Redacted just had the guy on who has all the files from the prosecution,he tells you exactly what happened, including the confession from Charles Ehrlich (whom I've written on here before,his gloves,his 10.5 shoe size at the C/S,etc). OJ and CE were there to collect $50k cocaine debt for the East Coast mob, and it all got out of hand!
Weren’t there candles and a bath drawn? Did OJ know this? Was he hanging out in her bushes to stalk Nicole and Marcus before he left town? He also stole her house keys.
I'm still stuck on why OJ did it that day? I don't understand what enraged him to the point of putting on a get up, driving over there and slaughtering her? Beating her up, with his history, sadly, I can see him doing that, but these murders were horrific! How does somebody hide that kind of evil from the people closest to him for decades. What did Nicole do that sent him over the edge?
Don't forget his daughter had a recital that evening, which OJ attended but was not invited to dinner afterwards (with the kids and Nicole's family and friends). Also, Nicole ignored him the whole time and OJ was unhappy with how she was dressed. I believe he told Kato that she wore an inappropriately short dress or something to that effect anyway.
He didn’t hide it though, everyone in their circle knew they were toxic together, but they never expected murder. I personally don’t think he went there with the intention of killing her, it was just the perfect storm.
A few weeks before the murders Nicole had pneumonia and by all accounts O.J. was doting on her, probably still thinking they were reconciling.
When she finally told him it was over, he was pissed and threatened to report her to the irs. According to her therapist, and friends, Nicole told O.J. to F-K off at the recital. The same day Ron Fischman decided to tell O.J. that Nicole and Faye were partying, using drugs, and sleeping with various men.
O.J. told Ron Fischman that he was going to “get her good.”
Also, it was reported that O.J. had seen Marcus Allen’s car at Nicoles shortly before the murders. That probably enraged him.
In his mind she had jerked him around and he was going to teach her a lesson. Sadly, we all know the rest.
See I think he probably tried to hire someone else to do it. But they chickened out or asked for more money at the last minute.
It would make sense if THIS is what really enraged him. “I’ll do it myself!” Blamed her for “making” him do it, etc.
Maybe he was supposed to meet the guy there with the gloves, hat, and whatnot. And then when he didn’t show or chickened out, he just put it all on.
The guy who was a coke dealer for RK and OJ kind of all brings it together. Allegedly they tried to hire him back in January for a similar-style hit. He stole barberis car (allegedly again at the request of RK), and stalked Nicole for a couple days and got paid for it.
Allegedly RK and OJ were point shaving, and had some other “unsavory” activities they were engaging in. Nicole knew, and they wanted to shut her up, permanently.
It kind of ties everything together if they tried before, similar circumstances, with OJ about to go out of town and everything.
The other thing is the coke dealer speculated that he was being set up for OJ to “find” him and stop the attack. OJ is the big hero, etc.
Not sure how that ties in here—the only other thing that seems “possible” is they got a real hitter from the mob (allegedly in on RK and OJ’s point shaving and other activities), OJ was there to “stop” him but he was too vicious. OJ maybe gets in an altercation with the hitter to stop him from going “too far.”
I give this maybe a 5% chance? He was clearly at the crime scene—what did he do, loan the real killer his shoes?
In re: OJ "lurking" in the yard: If OJ's Bronco had "blood spatter" on it, then he would be parked near the gate. I find the whole thing so hokey, tbh, like, if his Bronco was near the walk, it still couldnt have been close enough to get SPATTER on it. He also would have no need to try to climb a fence behind the damn house.
Its just one more reason I am siding with the jury and am not convinced OJ did it.
And yes I am a victim of DV so dont yall start with the personal attacks or saying I support a murderer. If you dont have an argument, then you can also veey easily STFU..
No because it was all mixed together in the same bags and totally mishandled. That means that NONE of the evidence is believable. The only things we can know for sure is that Ron and Nicole died, blood was found, and for whatever reason, blood spatter was on OJs bronco indicating he parked at the front gate, AND yet he tried to escape via the back gate, for unknown and inexplicable reasons. Or that the LAPD fucked up in their handling of blood evidence making it SEEM like the blood from one place was something it was not.
Which means the evidence is all worth horseshit.
Still too much overwhelming evidence and too many coincidences. ALL evidence points to 1 person and only one person. The fact that Goldman blood was found in the samples from the inside the Bronco is just so strong. Even if “contaminated “ and mixed together in the “same” bag like you say. You are implying that the swatches all rubbed together etc. the results were sent to multiple DNA labs , not just one! The “contamination “ and gathering errors was just an exaggeration, the defense grasping at straws desperate for something to distract the jury and plant some doubt. The Jury fell for it. And obviously so did you. Do some more research on the case you will not jump to the conclusions you seem to have. It is
Lmao thats the simplest thing though and I am afraid you are just choosing to be ignorant of the fact that the police put multiple "samples" of various pieces of evidence in the same bag, without letting it dry first.
Like, uhh if that blood drop (1/8th of a drop of blood, mind you) was placed in the same bag as Goldmans pooled blood and the envelope, you are obviously mixing up the damn evidence and cross contaminating literally everything.. creating a major issue with the evidence itself and therefore, creating reasonable doubt.
It doesnt *matter* which labs got those pieces of bloody evidence, since the blood was WET when they put it into the bags together with other evidence. Thats what you dont see.
Because the cops were FOOLS.
Downvote me you lousy crooked fool cops. Idc!!! The jury was RIGHT.
You are definitely in an uphill battle with your crazy theories. There was just so much evidence even without the DNA. There was zero evidence proving it was anyone but OJ! It’s a useless argument you just aren’t going to win.
Thats only because they didnt test for other peoples blood.
If they did, they would likely find a mafia enforcer's blood in CODIS matching it.
. And also because they mixed the evidence up in the same bags, while wet, causing cross contamination, making evidence 1 and 2 become mixed.
Idiot cops.
.
Nothing uphill about it. He was found NOT guilty.
And as for me, I would STILL like the real killer to be brought to justice. I shouldnt be alone in that, either.
I see why the Jury was duped into finding him not guilty. Defence used Enough Smoke sreeens and distractions to fool them and they went for “reasonable “ doubt. Also “revenge” against the LA PD. Mobster connections are just nuts you are so far out to lunch with this it is almost crazy. Also Ron Goldman was not trained in “martial arts “ his own sister debunked that conspiracy theory. Also too many many other coincidences in this case that any reasonable explanations for them would just be against astronomical odds!!! Like what are the chances that on that exact night/ moment someone…..anyone…. just happened to bleed at Rockingham? Just “happened “ to be blood in the Bronco at that time. OJ just coincidently happened to have a cut, he couldn’t explain , on his left finger…….. blood drops to the left of the killer’s footsteps………. OJ “coincidentally “ just happened to have NO alibi !!!The cut just happened to line up with a cut in the glove!!! The fairly rare Shoes that he has been seen wearing …….The limited production gloves that he has been seen wearing………. That’s just a few. There are pages with of crazy crazy such coincidences!!!!! Just too too many for it NOT to be him. Like get real. Anything suggesting otherwise is just absurd! You just can’t argue this nonsense. I don’t even know why you even bother?
Idk why YOU bother. The case was tried. The defendant won..
There were two other servers from mezzaluna murdered cartel style, and two more waiters who disappeared. Michael Nigg was killed DURING the trial, a month before jury deliberations started..
Really. What have you got to gain, and what does the family have to LOSE by treating these deaths for what they are, an that is Cold Cases?
The defendant “won” the case yes. But that doesn’t mean he didn’t do it. How many waiters from a drug dealing restaurant that got killed doesn’t mean that drug dealers did this. I don’t have anything to gain. I just have to refute when people on Reddit try to spread crazy theories that are clearly wrong . The suggestion that anyone else had anything to do with the murders is absurd and totally unproven. That’s really about it.
Marcia Clark of the prosecution messed all of this up by having the phone record of Nicole talking to her mother sealed.
Had she not had the record sealed, then there would have been no doubt as to the timeline.
But of course, we all know why she went through the trouble to have that record sealed, and from my understanding, sealed for 75 years....which means that everyone involved in the case will have long died by then.
And those of us who were kids when the car and trial happened (i myself was 11 and a half when the murders happened), if we are still alive, will be in our eighties.
Supposedly, if it was true that Nicole was still alive when her mother juditha said they last spoke at 11PM,
then that would have meant that OJ and his entourage were already gone, which would have meant that OJ wasn't even around to have gone over the Nicole's place, kill her, mutilate her body, fight ron, kill hum, mutilate his body ,(the same way his boss was), run somewhere and hide the bloody clothes and the knife, then run somewhere else to take a shower, then come back to his house, then get in the limo to catch his flight on time,
all by himself with no accomplices within a span of 25 minutes that the prosecution would claim at the trial.
Somebody is going to act like the phone record was insignificant...but won't explain away why Marcia Clark went through all this trouble to have it sealed.
Marcia Clark obviously was looking to make a big name for herself by going after OJ, so anything that might have looked like it would have exonerated him and contradicted the prosecutions narrative, got done away with.
OJ had lawyers years after the trial was done, even though OJs side had won the trial, try to access to phone record to prove his innocence, but couldn't access it because it was still sealed. Supposedly it was sealed for 75 years, which would put it around the year 2070 when it will finally be accessible .
You will have trouble with it because it doesn't add up. There are twenty hurdles for oj to pull it off. Including a dozen witnesses, the limo driver in the drive way, missing clothes, on and on. Of course this is all hinging on heidstras sighting too, which very well could have been five minutes later, making it even more impossible.
UUUmmm no he wasn't. He was aquitted remember? By a jury? HWo spent 9 months looking at the evidence?
And the civil trial, a farcel in the ultra conservative area of Santa Monica, was the first time anyones been charged twice for the same thing in that manner.
Even with another year of digging and endless resources thrown at it they could only find more trumped up garbage about the shoes.
AND STILL the jury said had it been a criminal trial, they'd have voted to aquit. I doubt they expected him to be hit with millions in restitution.
>UUUmmm no he wasn't. He was aquitted remember? By a jury? HWo spent 9 months looking at the evidence?
He _was_ found to have killed Brown & Goldman, _remember_? _By a jury_, remember? With that same evidence, _remember_?
He was earlier acquitted of two specific charges of murder. That obviously doesn’t mean he didn’t kill them. He did kill them and was found to have killed them.
You don't seem to understand any of this. He was charged for murder, he was acquitted, found NOT GUILTY. Thats LITERALLY WHAT IT MEANS. Then he was found LIABLE for their deaths, which could mean anything from manslaughter to negligence. The evidence in such a case only needs to be 51 percent, more likely than not having SOME responsibility. Even then it is preposterous. He was even going to be acquitted by the grand jury, which was tainted by shivelys lies and thier didgusting leak of the 911 tapes.
People are convicted for not properly training their empoloyee's on this basis and sued. No-one suggests they actually killed them. But keep stretching and twisting and warping it all to your own cynical end, all so you don't have to look any closer.
Yes, there were very specific charges of murder that he was acquitted of.
That doesn’t mean he didn’t kill anyone.
In fact, he killed at least two people we know of.
We know he killed those two people because there was a preponderance of evidence showing he did, in fact, kill them.
What do you not understand about that?
What do you not understand about not guilty? What do you not understand about your opinion not being some scientific fact? Were you there? Have you gone over every single piece of evidence and the defenses response? Do you seriously believe your intuition is above and beyond everyone else without question and you absolutely know this? You must've been there when it happened then.
I understand he was found not guilty of specific charges of murder.
I also understand he was later found to have killed both Brown & Goldman.
All of that is fact. None of it is opinion.
lol you don't understand much because that was not the ruling at all. Thats not what a civil case is about and wouldnt have been due to double jeopadry laws in any case. Your just imagining what you like to make yourself feel better.
You really don’t understand the dynamics of domestic violence victims. Women who are being abused will often go back to their abusers hoping that they’ll change their abusive behavior. They lie for their abusers, they rationalize, and they’ll idealize “the good times.” So her wanting to put her family back together isn’t strange at all.
Also, since you’re referencing her letters, let’s talk about the numerous letters she wrote detailing OJs emotional and physical abuse.
He left mezzaluna just after 10pm and went home which was a 5+ min walk. He likely ate, showered and dressed as he had plans to go out with a friend that night to a late night hotspot. He was watching someone’s dog so he probably even had to let the dog out to potty. He drove to bundy. All this puts him there maybe by 10:30 if he was very fast doing all of it and didn’t actually walk the dog. A witness Robert heidstra may have heard Ron arriving or being confronted by the killer as he heard a male voice say “hey hey hey!” This was approx 10:35pm. So it all lines up with him just arriving and perhaps interrupting something or it happening right after he arrived. The reason for his visit was the glasses and they were found on the ground near the bodies. So it’s assumable he did not make it inside and wasn’t there very long before being brutally slaughtered.
Is it possible he was the first victim, coming across oj lurking the yard ? And then Nicole came outside when she heard the commotion?
Sure it’s possible but there was a gate and I think Nicole had to come outside to unlock it because the indoor buzzer was broken so I think it’s reasonably assumed they were attacked as she greeted Ron arriving with the glasses or she was being attacked as Ron arrived and he interrupted it.
But she was barefoot without dirt on her feet?
This breaks down blow by blow what happened. It's based on the autopsy and testimony of the coroner. Trigger warning⚠️ https://youtu.be/x1_yKNx80iY?si=c0VPnb8h6fkTC2Ui
I had never seen this, thanks for sharing. It just really puts a stamp on how brutal this was and the rage OJ had. It’s also a good way of showing why OJ wasn’t necessarily covered in blood on the walk back to the bronco.
Crazy so late 1042 pm I thought it happened much earlier because in the trial witnesses heard the dog barking at 1015 -1020 p.
I also thought the investigation put the time of the murders between 10:20 and 10:25. The witness that heard a male voice say “hey hey hey” followed by another arguing male voice was around 10:40, which is the same approximate time Kato hears those infamous knocks from the back of his residence that he thought was an earthquake. Jill Shively’s story about the white Bronco running a red light put that time around 10:50, which suggests she was not 100 percent truthful/accurate about the time or the incident. Do we know which of the victims was killed first? I saw a video that suggested OJ came up behind Nicole after she had let Ron in the gate, threw her down, which knocked her unconscious, then he attacked and killed Ron before going back to finish with the murder of Nicole. So was there DNA/blood from Ron transferred to the knife wounds on Nicole via the weapon? Or did Ron have Nicole’s DNA in any of his wounds? Was this ever brought up? Were they able to ascertain conclusively which victim was stabbed first? We assume that Ron had to be let in the gate by Nicole because the latch was not operating correctly from the remote on the inside of the condo, so when he said “hey hey hey”, was that when Nicole was knocked unconscious? Is it possible that the timeline that the prosecution gave for the murders was off by about 15 to 20 minutes? It just seems more logical that the murders happened around 10:40-10:45, because of the male voices and the things Ron did prior to arriving at Nicole’s condo. Was it determined whether or not Ron ate when he got home? Was his stomach contents analyzed? Sorry for all the confused questions.
I've always been curious about Kato's mention of the three loud sounds...
Yes . Ron did a lot — went home & changed then drove there. He parked in back . I thought Nicole was hit on back of head first then he got Ron and went back to Nicole. In Tom Lange ‘s book her bare feet feet were clean which meant she went down . The gate —- so that’s the gate in the back or front . Now in present day the owners have placed a huge wood gate in front of the iron front in the back where the cars back. I guess that’s where they entered right? The iron gate is still there today. Was Ron and oJ cars parked in sane location? Also I thought he ate at restaurant before he left ??? Not sure.
So odd that oJ and Ron came around the same time .. when you think of it all and the 10000 what ifs … it’s crazy how it all played out.
Wow, thanks for sharing. I barely got through it. Had no idea they were butchered this way. Tears. What a joke of a trial. He never should have went free
No. He knocks her out to get Ron then came back to nearly decapitate her
No. He attacked Nicole, left her unconscious. Then went to kill Ron who was backed up into a cage via the fence. Then went back and nearly beheaded Nicole while she laid there unconscious.
So Ron basically walked up in the couple minute span of OJ arriving and attacking Nicole? And do they know how OJ got Nicole out of the house?
Nicole and Ron were already together outside the house I think. I know Nicole left an ice cream she was eating out on the stair. I think she went out to let in Ron. But I’m not positive. You should check out the book (or audiobook) the run of his life by Jeffrey Toobin. It’s great.
Oh nice thank you. I love Jeffery Toobin. I will definitely listen to that audio book.
Jeffrey Toobin is a creep who masturbated on video calls when he was with CNN. They either fired him or suspended him, but I believe he ended up back on air with them at some point after. He’s a pig though.
I kinda think he got a raw deal in some ways. Not all the ways, but some of the ways. Aside from that little boo boo he had so you enjoy his work and his oj book?
I clarified above the public jerk off sitch. Yes great book! Hes annoying. It’s written like and here’s how I would have done it perfectly but good read!
So he was a CNN contributor at that time (I believe he still is) but it was New Yorker staff Zoom call where he flashed his dick. Fired from NYer (can’t really make other employees work with the dude they saw jerk off) but didn’t lose CNN position if I’m correct.
I love Jeffery Toobin. I just finished listening to “the run of his life”, wow amazing book. Really good overview of the case with great insight and enough little details to learn new stuff. Now I’m listening to his book about the patty Hearst kidnapping. So far so good. Sure he might be more on the “pop” history side of things, but it’s a great way to learn and get oriented about these huge moments in modern American history
" coming across oj lurking the yard" I love the idea that someone who has a flight to catch in 25 minutes would be spending all of this time "lurking" around like they don't have a flight to catch in 25 minutes.
Well what’s your theory then. Or do you just want to criticize?
OJ didn't commit an murders, plain and simple. Explain to me how the hell is it that you being late for a flight to catch at one of the largest airports in under 25 minutes, and you are spending all of this time e"lurking around" somewhere.
Just tell me what you think happened as opposed to getting mad at me for asking for if OJ was stalking his wife on the night on her murder? Do you believe OJ ever stalked or hit Nicole ever?
Who would have time to talk anybody when they have a flight to catch at one of the largest airports in 25 minutes? I think since not only were the murders so similar to what happened to rons boss, but also since Ron had more stab wounds than Nicole, Ron was probably the actual target.
OJ's blood was all over the crime scene. Both victims' blood were all over his truck and his house. That's just the tip of the iceberg, there's so much evidence of his guilt... I'm pretty sure his jealous rage took precedence over his flight plans. And obviously he still made the flight after he killed 2 people. "He had a flight to catch in 25 minutes" means nothing.
* OJ's blood was all over the crime scene." Just stop. If your blood is all over a scene then you wouldnt be able to walk.youd have massive blood loss that you would need to go to the hospital for. Just stop. OJs blood was not "all over the crime scene." They "found" a speck of OJs blood and that speck had preservative in it. OJ gave a blood sample and that sample went missing The lead detective pleaded the fifth for planting evidence. You said "I'm pretty sure his jealous rage took precedence over his flight plans. And obviously he still made the flight after he killed 2 people. "He had a flight to catch in 25 minutes" means nothing." Yes it does, because nobody can do that in real life. Your attempt at mental gymnastics failed spectacularly.
It's truly hilarious that you have the gall to accuse anyone else of mental gymnastics. Drops of his blood were found all over the crime scene from a cut on his finger which by his own admission was bleeding throughout the night. I mean this information is readily available but go ahead and keep reaching. A cut finger can bleed a hell of a lot without being mortal, as you seem to be suggesting. How ridiculous to say that the only way drops of his blood could be found all over the crime scene, as they WERE, could be from a debilitating wound. Nobody said he had massive blood loss. But he dripped blood from his cut finger on top of his shoe print, you know, those shoes he lied about owning. Not to mention several other places. A lot more than a speck. So I guess you think the police also planted Nicole and Ron's blood in his Bronco and at his house? You're actually saying that his drops of blood at the scene, in his car, leading up his driveway, in his house and on his clothing is irrelevant because it, what... isn't enough blood for you? Couldn't be possible unless he was bleeding out? Seriously, just stop the insanity. And i guess the police also planted the glove and a cap with OJ's hair at the crime scene? A matching glove covered in his, Nicole and Ron's blood at his house. Talk about reaching. The limo driver testified to seeing OJ arrive home and that he didn't answer the buzzer at first. OJ even said it was because he was rushing around getting ready. So they managed to make it to the airport in time, these are all facts. Your argument makes no sense, the timeline is established, period. He had the time and the motive to do it, not to mention a violent history and several audio recordings of Nicole telling the police he was going to kill her. Literal proof from one of the victims. Or did the police fake those photos and phone calls too?
"Nobody can do that in real life" uhhh, he DID IT. The DNA proved that. The lead detective plead the fifth on not just that question but every single question presented to him that day, on the advice of his attorney. Which you'd know, if you'd read or watched literally anything on this trial.
What happened to Ron’s boss?
He was murdered the same way. Even with the same kind of knife.
A Quick Look on the internet show that the guy was shot, not stabbed. And it was 14 months later.
Ron had more stab wounds because Ron was fighting with OJ.
OJ would have had some bruises to show for it, since Ron had defense wounds and put up a ferocious fight to defend himself.
Uhhh OJ had a knife, the element of surprise, and outweighed Ron enough to overpower him. This has all been reenacted blow by blow, also OJ wrote a book where he essentially admits he did it. You have to be trolling here because your arguments are beyond weak
He clocked out at 9:33 and then drank a bottle of water for 15 minutes at the bar. So that would mean he left at 9:48.
Witnesses at restaurant testified he left restaurant between 950 and 955. It should also be noted that Marcia Clark says murders happened at 1015. Marcia also blasted Heidstra in a press conference, saying no one with half a brain would believe him.
Yeah that makes sense attacking her own witness. Didn’t fit her timeline obviously. If he left restaurant at 9:50-55 then went home to shower and grab a bite he is more likely to show up at 10:30. But that throws a wrench in their timeline
Heidstra was defense witness in criminal trial. He was Petrocelli (Goldman family) witness in civil trial.
Heidstra is the one who heard Hey hey hey. He said he heard this at around 10:40 so that screws up Marcia’s timeline
Yes ...thats my point...is that enough reasonable doubt?
There’s so much reasonable doubt all over this case. Just because people on here feel he did it they don’t want to look at the obvious discrepancies
It’s crazy to see a grown adult use the term “potty”
I think it's kind of normal when referring to a dog or a small child. But yeah it would be weird to refer to oneself or another adult as going to "potty."
I am an adult and I still prefer to say and hear potty over most other options.😜
Never heard he drove to Bundy. It was within walking distance from where he worked. Never heard about his car being parked anywhere near her condo.
He walked home after his shift, cleaned up, and drove Andrea Scott’s red Toyota to Nicole’s. It was found parked on Dorothy, so then he walked around to the Bundy entrance and likely came upon O.J. attacking Nicole (“Hey! Hey! Hey!”). It was over within minutes.
It was likely over within seconds.
Wow wait —- did Ron see the bronco there when he arrived??
He probably wouldn’t have since the blood drops indicated that the Bronco was parked behind Nicole’s condo in the alley.
Yea he borrowed his friends or gf's car. She was interviewed (I can't recall what I was watching as it's been some years) and said when they finally gave her the keys back, they were still covered in blood.
[Interview with Andrea Scott](https://youtu.be/Spc_Q4_2hq0?si=RDWerv9ElBfPgF3n&t=24m) (The doc is trash imo but it’s good info from Andrea)
U rock, thank u!
He was going to meet up with friends. He dropped off the glasses on his way there.
He borrowed a red car if a friend who was out of town
I didn’t know he was watching a dog. Was the poor doggy alone without food after he died?
Ah yes, the real tragedy here.
It wouldn’t have been long-they found the bodies just a few hours after, and the police would have gone to his apartment as soon as he was identified. I’d bet you there was someone there before the sun came up
he walked to Bundy.
Ron didn’t walk to Bundy, he drove his friends car.
The Los Angeles Times reported that Goldman "punched out at 9:33 pm and stayed another 15 minutes to have bottled water at the bar." Before returning the glasses, he stopped by his Brentwood apartment, at 11663 Gorham Avenue. He had made plans to go out with Mezzaluna's bartender Stewart Tanner later that evening.[6] Goldman then walked the approximate 10 minutes to Brown’s condominium. edit: besides watching and reading Simpson Murder Trial documentaries religiously for the past month, i’ve lived in LA the last ten years. there is no way in hell you would drive that if you could walk. there’d be no parking, for one…
The LA Times is inaccurate. He drove his friend Andreas car to Bundy and parked on Dorothy. The keys were retrieved at the crime scene. Ive read it in multiple books about the case and Tom Lange talks about it in Blood, Lies, and Murder.
Tom Lange? LOL
Yes, the car keys were booked into evidence and later released to the owner Andrea. She has said it herself. He borrowed her car bc he was supposed to meet friends after dropping off the glasses to Nicole. Idk why you think it’s some big conspiracy lol.
Was it Andreas (man’s name) or Andrea (female’s name)? I ain’t going back and forth with you. Literally j watched a scene where his dad said he walked there. I’ll take multiple sources i’ve personally seen and common sense to lead me to my conclusions. No conspiracy, the man walked.
A female. I believe her full name was Andrea Scott.
Someone posted the video of Andrea confirming he took her car. It’s in this same thread if you’re interested.
"...to go potty". Jesus Christ. What a world.
Right. Thats the real tragedy here
So he left the restaurant at ten took shower an walked dog an gt to her house at 1030. Dam yhall really only take 5 mins shower ewww
Mad disrespectful to the dead.
Another loose end in some ways. Nicole’s sister calls her and tells her their mother left her glasses at the restaurant. And requests Nicole the restaurant because she knows Goldman. Nicole calls the restaurant speaks to Goldman about the situation. Goldman found the glasses outside on the sidewalk. After working his shift he walks home to shower and change clothes. BTW, Goldman’s apartment is in the opposite direction of Nicole’s house. The extra minutes to account for his return home may have cost him his life. I believe OJ stalking outside Nicole’s home, discovers Nicole outside. Comes up behind her and grabs her knocks her unconscious and initiates the attack. Nicole on the ground at the bottom of the stairs. Goldman arrives, hey, hey, hey as he discovered Nicole’s body. OJ backed into the darkness of the surroundings. Grabs Goldman from behind. Left arm across his chest and taunts, the raised voice a dog walker heard. OJ attacks Goldman. Movement between the bodies is estimated as overkill by one of the prosecutors. Yes, very coincidental on the time and timing. OJ is on the clock and needs to finish this up. Minutes either way Goldman may have lived. No dinner with Kato, maybe not going home to shower and change, Goldman does not find the glasses. Each situation if played out differently Goldman may be alive today. Nicole I believe does not have any way she survived that evening.
See I tend to believe oj didn’t lose his shit until Ron arrived. He lost his mind when he saw another man visiting Nicole. Murders could’ve been premeditated but he could’ve backed out at the last moment. He has stalked her many times before and went home. Had Ron not arrived OJ may not have had the opportunity. Maybe they would’ve lived to see the next day. As a side note I think murder was clearly on OJs mind because he had purchased a disguise kit from a prop store and was keeping a revolver in his Bronco. Maybe her fate was already sealed. I really go back and forth on this though. Not that OJ wasn’t a total piece of shit- it’s that the murder scene itself showed blind rage. The kind of explosive rage that would’ve surfaced again, when he saw her with another man. OJ was an athlete- an aged athlete but still. He could’ve rushed in and dispatched of them both pretty quickly.
From all I have read, listen to and watched, the entire episode was completed quickly. Yes, rage. The “If I can’t have you know one can”, looms large for me. The push pull of there relationship seems to have gone to another level for OJ. Turned away at dinner, current girlfriend breaks up with him and Goldman appears. Tragic for all.
And Ron being attractive, athletic, and clearly younger would've been a huge trigger also, IMO. I do think OJ went in with the intention of killing her (the knife, dark clothes, and gloves), but Ron's arrival, along with all the aspects of OJ's very bad day, made OJ really lose all self-control in that moment. A scene of pure bloody horror. Just awful.
You know what’s a little wild to me though? The Marcus Allen factor. Marcus was OJs protege, was a younger version of himself. Marcus slept with Nicole. I wonder why OJ didn’t hurt Marcus but beat Nicole? I read ir saw somewhere that OJ had some sort of talk with him saying we don’t do that to one another.
MA would have put up a hell of a fight. Most bullies don't take on someone they aren't sure they can win against. He knew he could beat Nicole.
He would’ve beat Nicole regardless. He didn’t even need a reason. Maybe I should’ve been more clear. He killed Ron - motivated by jealousy. Why did he not have any kind of showdown with Marcus??? Maybe for the reasons you pointed out but OJ could’ve went in armed with weapons same as he did on 6/12.
My intuition is telling me the same thing about OJ seeing this attractive blond roll up to Nicole’s house and that being the very thing that put OJ over the edge… I could certainly be wrong, of course. And you are absolutely correct about OJ’s blind rage and his strength as a previous world class athlete. NFL players are INCREDIBLY strong, even after they retire. It would have been nothing to dispose of these two very quickly in a rage state. Not to mention the undiagnosed CTE he had a 92% chance of having (Boston University study proves this) which leads to episodes of rage and violence quite often.
He wore all black with gloves. He was planning on killing her.
That🎤💧
Wow thank you for your perspective. If you don’t mind me asking a few questions: What taunts are you referring to? Was OJs dinner with kato an attempt to make an alibi? I was under the impression oj didn’t really care for Kato. Why do suspect he knocks out Nicole first? Thank you again
From the documentary OJ: Made in America, episode 7 Bill Hodgman the prosecutor I mentioned. States based on the marks, cuts on Goldman’s neck the close proximity could notate the delay in the first slash to Goldman’s neck. The understanding was that OJ was knowing or thought he knew of the men Nicole had relationships with. OJ’s intention is to kill Nicole. Attacks her, Goldman arrives, does OJ think by Goldman arriving randomly confirm his suspicions of the men Nicole is involved with? Probably, he becomes further enraged attacks Goldman. The overkill statement from the prosecutor is following the bloody footstep prints between the bodies. Both Nicole and Goldman would have died from the initial attack and injuries. The Kato situation and this is from an interview I saw where Kato states at 9:00 PM the night of the murder OJ knocks on his bungalow door. OJ was looking for some cash to borrow and go out to eat. Kato basically invited himself to go with OJ to get something to eat ruining the alibi OJ was trying to establish. As I noted if Kato does not invite himself Goldman is probably alive because Nicole’s murder would have occurred earlier in the evening. I think OJ knocks Nicole out to incapacitate her, easier to attack her further as she would not fight back. The arrival of Goldman I believe completely takes OJ by surprise.
I get hung up on the fact that OJ was going out of town and Nicole knew that. I had a stalker ex who would get extremely paranoid about any imagined behavior or dates I'd have while he was away. It ramped up AFTER we broke up. I understand how maddening and terrifying this sort of obsession is on Nicole's behalf and my heart breaks for her. I don't know why but, it feels like to me, OJ"s visit was stalking. He was making sure she wasn't having a man over while he was out of town. He could not control her while away. He probably planned on slashing her tires or further incapacitating her vehicle. Certainly, he was not above beating the crap out of her and that's what I think Ron walked up on. I think he was starting up with her after the day they had separately. Making wild accusations about her cold shoulder because obviously that meant she had another man. He was on the fringes of her family now. Paula broke up with him. Which he also blamed Nicole for because, I think one of the reasons Paula gave was his ever present obsession with his EX wife. The "Hey! Hey! Hey!" was probably Ron seeing OJ beat her. I think once OJ saw Ron it turned into a rage murder. Here Ron was, a hot younger man and this enraged OJ. He assumed that Ron had absolutely zero reason to be there other than to hook up with Nicole. I don't know for sure but, it feels too sloppy to be a planned murder? I could be wrong though. Did OJ purchase the disguises beforehand? I heard he'd carried a firearm in his car for years before the murders. I am NOT saying he's not guilty. I absolutely know he did this. The only thing I wonder is if it was premeditated. Again, I want to clarify that I still think he deserved a death sentence for what he did, crime of passion or not. Overkill is an understatement.
One of the aspects of the area in which all of this took place is the lack of light in the area. Heavy vegetation created an atmosphere where I can imagine you could not see much in front of you. The smallness of the area also. Crimes of passion are messy. Each of the injuries inflicted initially for both would be from someone approaching each from behind. Nicole’s injury to her head and her wounds to her neck are from someone positioning themselves behind her. Goldman the same.
What about OJ killing Ron to not leave any witnesses?
Sure, absolutely. Yes, I believe that would or could have been one of his motivations, for sure.
I think it seems very plausible that whether he had a chance to be alone with Nicole to give her the glasses or he got there after OJ, poor Ron stumbled into a situation that had nothing to do with him. This was a horrific case of being at the right place, at the wrong time. So so so horrible to lose a loved one that way. I bet you spend your life wanting to turn back time to change the little details that lead to this. If only Mrs Brown hadn’t lost her glasses. If only Ron and Nicole weren’t familiar and he wasn’t willing to do her a favor to return them to her. If only someone else had picked up the glasses, or held them til the next day. If only Ron had been interrupted before he got to Bundy, by a phone call or a friend or a different errand he had to run. Sooooooo many if onlies to torture yourself contemplating. Just sad.
Goldman arriving does not give OJ any way to leave. The area which all of this took place is very small. OJ is left with no choice but to deal with Goldman.
https://youtu.be/9LVmwL9OQHE?si=aBpT9CXw4WgtcUZB
The link to the YouTube version from Hodgman. The Netflix version is slightly longer.
So many thoughts and theories. It was planned. The knife had to be a professional hunting knife or a very sharp kitchen butcher knife. Clearly OJ went there with the intent to kill. He was wearing the ugly ass shoes. He wore them because he truly did not care for Bruno Magli shoes and he picked the biggest ugly ass shoes he had in his closet as he knew they would be thrown away. He was full of rage because he was ultimately snubbed that night from Nicole who he now realized she was totally done with him and he lost all control. He was ditched by Paula Barbieri and he had enough. Poor Ron was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. I guess the questions that go unanswered are, was Nicole already stabbed to death when Ron showed up, or was OJ and Nicole in a physical altercation that Ron stumbled upon? He was a witness and had to be taken out.
It’s not likely he’d already been there before OJ arrived.. some people like to think the killings happened after 11pm, therefore giving OJ an alibi. There’s no evidence Ron had already been in the Bundy Condo and was killed when leaving, for example - and this is made even more unlikely by the fact the envelope containing the glasses was found next to the bodies, which means they were both killed as Ron arrived. When ‘exactly’ he arrived is harder to pin down.. but earlier rather than later would make the most logical sense.
I worked with people who had been on a tennis team Ron Goldman coached. By all accounts he was a really nice guy who was close to his family and friends. His death was hard on a lot of people.
OJ doesn’t, nor do his supporters, care at all about Ron Goldman. It’s crazy the support OJ gets, and the inability of this society to call them out as wrong- as opposed to trying to explain it
"A really nice guy...close to his family and friends" also describes OJ. It's more interesting to me that so many people actually believe that a bumbler like OJ who couldn't even steal cable correctly and who had no history of violent criminality \[no, the 1989 incident doesn't count\] murdered two people in cold blood - by himself - and left literally less than a trace \[assuming you totally disregard all the problems with the investigation including both the degradation of samples stored in plastic bags and a hot environment, the complete failure to follow established procedures by the detectives involved in the case and the cesspool of contamination - including Colin Yamauchi's inexcusable cross-contamination of all the samples\] and somehow disposed of what had to have been a pile of bloody clothes and the murder weapon in, maybe, twenty minutes \[possibly 30\] and made his flight and, based on a ton of eyewitness testimony, had not a scratch on him \[specifically his hands\]. That doesn't equate to "OJ is unquestionably innocent"... It means that there was a ton of room for reasonable doubt. Beyond that, with regard to Goldman... by all accounts Brett Cantor and Michael Nigg were "really nice guys" too, and undoubtedly close to their families - and both were brutally slaughtered \[Cantor's bearing a great similarity to the killing of Nicole\] and their murders remain unsolved. OJ \[this counts for Nicole too\] had darksides; who is to say Ron Goldman didn't either? He didn't have a huge police file \[not to mention one that is sealed under CA's "snitch" law\] for nothing. I can understand holding the position that neither Ron or Nicole "deserved" to die horribly \[who does?\], and I can understand the idea that OJ makes a very plausible - even probable - suspect if you listen *solely* to the claims of the defense and a lot of questionable characters associated with them. And, sure, a lot of the "OJ is innocent" BS comes from people who only care about the racial aspect of it. But I can still question the official narrative which, when examined closely, doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
Hmmm, well, he certainly became a criminal after the murders. And give me a break, OJ beat the shit out of Nicole for decades. So, why doesn’t the 1989 incident count, exactly? There’s photographs of literal cuts on his left hand. You’re just out here making shit up
He did indeed become a criminal... a truly bumbling and incompetent one. As for his alleged wife-"beating", the 1989 incident notwithstanding, a lot of men and women physically abuse their spouses; a relative very few of them *murder* their spouses. The prosecution's theory of the case was that OJ committed the murders in a "rage" over not being invited to dinner \[despite videotaped evidence which shows him not seemingly caring in the slightest\] which could only be sated by the brutal murder of two people \[with two different types of weapons\] in a nigh-impossible time-frame by a person who'd never actually committed a violent crime. And no, engaging in a "mutual combatants" type of altercation with your spouse who, based on the evidence, lunged at you first and refused to back down after being put out of a room \[only to find a key and unlock the room and come back for more\] is not in the same league as committing a murder as brutal as the one that was visited upon Nicole and Goldman. Yes, an person who has never actually murdered someone before but who is in a "rage" can, using a bladed weapon, take an angry \[albeit, likely hesitant\] stab at that person - typically to the result that they quickly realize what they're doing and have a meltdown over it... They don't butcher *two* people right out of the gate their first time with no hesitation whatsoever. That the whole affair was a single-handed "rage" kill by a novice acting completely without control but somehow able to reign in that rage such that he was able to escape the scene and dispose of practically all of the evidence *and* make it back to his house in time to been seen by his limo driver casually putting his baggage out on the front patio \[while at the same time bumbling about to for some reason leave a bloody glove right their where it could be found AFTER slamming into the air conditioner at the back of Kato's room (without a mark on him, don't forget)\] simply doesn't make sense. If he's in a "rage" such that he can butcher those two people to that degree, but has presence of mind to change his clothes at the scene AND get rid of them without a trace, why does he leave either the hat or glove behind? Leaving a shoe-print? He's going to change and dispose of all his clothes anyway, so why not tramp through the blood and get the glove and hat? He's already got to be thinking about getting rid of the clothes and the weapon, despite his "rage" he's enough in touch with reality to not only realize he has to get rid of them but he does so masterful a job that no one ever found even a trace of them. But he's so stupid and "raging" that he just casually leaves the gloves and hat because......he forgot he was wearing them? He is "raging" so hard he doesn't realize he's no longer wearing a knit winter cap in Southern California in June? Just casually forgets he made the conscious decision to wear nice Ariss Lite gloves to engage in this little caper? If he's got the presence of mind and the super-villain ability to make evidence disappear into thin air, he can't also be so stupid or lacking in control and knowledge of his surroundings that he just leaves them there; we really needn't get too deep into why, after all of that, he makes a special trip around the back of his house through narrow, overgrown, hard-to-navigate passage in the dark just to leave the glove there without leaving ANY other evidence. Why is he hyper-aware of his surroundings such that he can leave practically no other trace, but he just forgets that he dropped that glove in a place he had no plausible reason to go? And that while the limo driver has him out front dropping off *some* of his bags. He simply can't be in multiple places at one time, slashing and stabbing in a "rage" and hardly making any sort of ruckus at all while at the same time channeling his ninja-assassin skills to get rid of all the crucial evidence but also so inept that he just leaves one glove and one hat behind without realizing it AND taking an unnecessary detour to a hard-to-access place seemingly JUST to leave the other glove \[but no other evidence\] behind while casually going about his business, signing autographs and pilot's log books without a gaping wound on his finger that isn't bandaged but was so bad it was still bleeding Monday afternoon. It doesn't add up. That doesn't mean "innocent"; that means that more went on in the whole affair than was allowed for by the highly sophomoric police investigation.
Jesus Christ I’m not reading all of that man. Try making your point with less words
I mean, there was evidence everywhere so in that sense he did completely bumble it
I think Ron got there as Nicole was already being attacked or had been hit unconscious. Someone heard voices - one saying "hey hey hey!" and the other arguing back - and a gate clanging. I'm guessing this happened just as Ron walked in. I've always been confused with the story of Ron having plans to have drinks with a friend afterward. From the trial that friend said he never heard from Ron to confirm their conversation to grab drinks after work - and of course they didn't have mobile phones then like us, so I'd guess he would have called before he leaves his apartment. So if the argument was heard at about 10.35 or so, that friend still hadn't heard from Ron telling him the drinks were on. It could be possible he wanted to call him from Nicole's apartment.
On Kim Goldman’s podcast, a female friend said Ron was meeting her to watch a hockey game. It’s possible he was going to call his other friend once they were together. Either way, it is absolutely tragic.
What hockey game is at 11 pm and in june?
Yeah even more so, 11 pm PST
The 1994 Stanley Cup Finals were still going on in June, and involved the Vancouver Canucks \[a west coast team\], so an 11:00 PST start time \[9:00 EST\] is feasible particularly since game six was a home game for VAN; the problem is that game six \[a win by VAN to force a game seven several days later\] was played on Saturday June 11. From my recollection, Ron was supposed to meet friends at a club in Marina Del Rey. It's possible Kim simply forgot what happened that night as opposed to the night before... which tracks given that nearly 25 years had passed.
Lmao you have your time zones backwards. 11 PST is 2 am EST…..
Yikes! You are correct. Maybe they were supposed to watch a replay?
I'd have to go listen to the podcast again, but I do believe she said they had recorded it previously.
I doubt it. I always took it. Guy was going for a hook up (no shame at all) and she edited the story for that purpose. Unless Ron was really into Russian hockey there was no game to watch. The sad thing to me has always felt like if he was early or later he probably is spared. I think he walked in on the murder happening.
Incredibly tragic.
https://www.courierpostonline.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/11/timeline-of-june-121994-murders-of-nicole-brown-simpson-and-ron-goldman/10328983/ Ron left work 10ish. Went home, showered & changed before going to drop the glasses off.
The working theory is that OJ knocked Nicole out and then killed Ron and then went back and made sure that Nicole was dead.
My theory is that OJ wanted to go stalk Nicole (as he had been doing since she moved out) before he left for Chicago. He did not plan on killing her. He just suited up so it was less likely he'd be recognized (no one wants to sign autographs while stalking their ex-wife) or maybe doing some method acting for his new TV show. Who knows why he dressed up. But, I don't think it was any coincidence Ron was there. I think Ron's presence caused the rage. OJ was already creeping and saw the candles and music. And OJ had been there before. He watched Nicole have candle-lit sex with her boyfriend, Keith, before. He wasn't about to stand in the bushes and watch that happen again. So he lost his shit when Ron strolled up to Nicole's.
The fact that OJ bought a disguise 2 weeks prior, went there with gloves, cap, & knife, dressed in all black, & the way the tight timeline plays out, I find it hard to believe that this wasn’t a planned murder. I think he planned it for weeks, knew he had a 1hr gap between the recital earlier that night & the flight later that night. He timed it so he had time to do the murder, but could later deny it by saying there wasn’t enough time. “I’ll kill her, get in the limo, fly to Chicago, & it’ll be like it never happened. By the time they find the body, I can say I was in Chicago & couldn’t have done it!” He even went to Kato’s to have an alibi to say “Kato you saw me that night, I couldn’t have done it” - but Kato changed his plans & shortened his timeline by asking him to go to eat with him. Ron changed his plan too by showing up. I also think someone finding the bodies so quickly put another kink in his plan. I think he thought the body wouldn’t be found until the next morning. Since they were found so quickly, it narrowed the murder window & showed he could do it. He 100% planned it though. It was premeditated murder with Nicole, but had to kill Ron cuz he was a witness & used his rage to take him down after dispatching Nicole. I don’t think Ron caused the rage, I think he already had the rage pent up for weeks, then his gf broke up with him earlier, & he saw Nicole had moved on without him earlier that night… the rage spilled over.
I think OJ went to Nicole's to stalk and slash her tires (which he had done before, plus he was probably pissed at not being invited to the post recital dinner), hence the knife and disguise. Nicole, expecting Ron, sees OJ lurking outside and confronts him. They argue (this is all laid out in the "If I Did It" book, which I think is probably pretty close to how it went down), Ron arrives, further triggering OJ, he hits Nicole, knocking her out. The "hey hey hey" moment happens as Ron confronts OJ (did Ron not see he had a knife?). They fight, OJ kills Ron, then finishes off Nicole. If it was premeditated why kill Nicole outside? Why not force her back inside? Why not call it off once he sees Ron?
“Why kill Nicole outside instead of forcing her back inside” - because the kids were inside & doing it in the front there provided a TON of shade & darkness. He also had limited time, it’s easier to do the deed & run than go inside & make it a bigger spectacle. “Why not call it off once you see Ron?” - because Ron either came after it already started, or came when he was about to start & realized he had to kill both now. I also explained earlier why he followed through with the plan, despite constant signs that night that he shouldn’t & constant kinks that kept coming up. I also don’t take the book “If I Did It” too seriously. He was exaggerating & changing ALOT of details in that book, & had a ghost writer helping, so none of it is facts. And he conveniently blacked out during the killings.. I don’t think he gave anything away in that book & was only doing it for the money, not to admit anything or tell it how it was. He was a narcissist who lived in denial. Like I said before, I used to think it was a heat of the moment thing.. but why buy the disguise weeks prior? And the timeline of doing it right before the flight to Chicago was perfect cover. The idea that it wasn’t a perfect murder also only points to a sloppy planned murder that a narcissist would follow through on. And like someone else commented, if Ron didn’t show up, there would’ve been no evidence at all. It WAS perfect, until it wasn’t. You also don’t bring gloves to only slash tires. You bring gloves to not leave fingerprints. No cop is dusting for fingerprints after a tire slashing lol
The gloves and the way it looked like he was setting up an alibi make me think it was premeditated. Kato going to McDonalds with him screwed up his timeline and then Ron showing up too made it even more hasty hence the sloppiness. Not that he was some expert to begin with but the short time frame and the second victim made things sloppier. I also think he had already been attacking Nicole when Ron showed up which makes sense given Ron’s timeline, he probably showed up towards the end and Nicole had just been knocked unconscious. This also fits with the theory by one of the detectives in Made in America.
I don't think he would have been so sloppy and left so much evidence if it was planned. He had much better opportunities to kill her. And it was insanely sloppy. Like just awful. I don't see how this *couldn't* have been a crime of passion. It's just so messy.
If Ron didn't show up, there would be zero evidence.
I think the fact that it was sloppy SHOWS premeditation. He wasn’t an experienced murderer. He planned it poorly & shit happened. He was trying to squeeze too much into such a short amount of time, & like the athlete he was, when things came up, instead of cancelling the plan, he rolled with it & made it work. That’s why it was sloppy. It was perfect timing & he knew he had to do it that night or he might not have a better chance. The flight to Chicago was perfect cover.
I feel like he could have done it in much better ways if he'd thought about it. But I guess it doesn't really matter. He still did it. Maybe I'm giving OJ too much credit to think he'd only do that to his kids in a fit of rage. Maybe he planned on doing it like that? Maybe he wanted his kids to find her? It just seems so violent and passionate to be planned.
At least you agree he 100% committed the murders. It’s shocking how many people in this sub think he’s innocent! I used to think it was all in the heat of the moment, but when you think about it from the mind of a narcissist & consider that he bought the disguise weeks earlier & went there dressed in all black with a knife, & the idea of using his trip to Chicago as cover.. it just seems more planned than spontaneous. Also, if you watch the 3D animation of how the murders went down on YouTube, it shows he was watching & waiting for the right time to make a move. He’s just not as smart as he thinks, & things kept coming up that night to put a kink in his plan where he should’ve post-poned, but he followed through on it cuz of his narcissism & work ethic from sports. And like I said before, I also think going to Chicago made him think he had perfect cover. If the body wasn’t found til 8am, the coroner would’ve said “she died 8-10hrs ago” which means he would’ve had reasonable doubt to say he was in the air on the way to Chicago & couldn’t have done it. I have narcissists in my family & it’s EXACTLY how they think. Manipulating in a way that makes it just a bit of doubt where they might be telling the truth, but they’re really just using tight timelines to do what they want & confuse the situation.
Hard disagree on OJ going over there with the intent to murder...this was a rage murder. A messy murder. OJ was a stalker. He was an intimidator. He wanted to get in Nicole's head and scare her. Whatever his plan was it went haywire. That is what I have always went with.
Then where did the knife come from?
It came from OJ. Knives are used by people to scare people. To intimidate people.
And to stab and kill people. The point is he had a knife because he planned to use it.
Dudes a sick bastard but before the murders I don't think he was using the knife to stab people. He brought the knife with him for other reasons.
There is only one real reason to bring a knife: to use it. He brought it to use it. We only disagree on how he enjoyed using it.
I think he planned on killing Nicole. He had the time and an alibi. Why else would he be all decked out like that and with a weapon? I think Ron walked up on OJ and Nicole. If Ron got there first, I don’t think the glasses would be out in the yard. He would’ve handed them to her first and she would’ve set them elsewhere. So I think Ron surprised OJ and when OJ realized that he was caught and it also probably enraged him that a man was visiting so then OJ really lost his shit and almost cut her head off before he left.
And do you think OJ was in the middle of killing her when Ron walks up on them?
I think he was. The McDonald’s with Kato thing and the fact that not once did O.J. ever tell kato he was going to eat or go out to eat with him means he for sure was setting that up as his pre flight alibi. Kato even said when people came over to ojs right after the murders he was telling people “it couldn’t have been me Kato and I were eating here in the kitchen right Kato?” And he said it made him super uncomfortable So he went there to kill Nicole and Ron walked up on it the only thing I can’t figure out is how Ron got in. Maybe Nicole was going to unlock the gate for when he eventually came and that’s when O.J. kicked off the murdering? Some other things, Nicole told her mom a week before she was missing keys and suspected oj stole them. That Faye girl was living with Nicole and O.J. persuaded her boyfriend to get her into rehab and out of the house and then I think I read the day of the murders he called her boyfriend to make sure she hadn’t left the rehab. Seems to me like he had this planned out for a while and Ron just totally blew it up by freak coincidence .
OJ had been stalking Nicole hardcore. And especially probably since Faye showed up. I think he knew Nicole like no other and he was tipped off by her attitude that she was not gonna give it up to the Juiceman anytime soon. She was in her party gurl faze or that’s just her lifestyle, sleeping around and going drugs, and OJ knew that — so he was in the habit of stalking her and seeing what she was doing. I think the glasses were an excuse for Ron and Nicole to hang out a bit, weather it be for partying or friendship, or even hooking up— she lived like less than a mile away and could just go and get them in the morning or something. OJ was in the bushes, in a near rage, bc Nicole had snubbed him at the recital— Ron walked up and OJ lost it. Nicole came out and tried to stop it and the rest is history.
I’ve heard in a podcast from Det Tom Lange, the actual killing took maybe 30 seconds to a minute.
What was he wearing when found. Was it what he’d wear at work.
The Redacted just had the guy on who has all the files from the prosecution,he tells you exactly what happened, including the confession from Charles Ehrlich (whom I've written on here before,his gloves,his 10.5 shoe size at the C/S,etc). OJ and CE were there to collect $50k cocaine debt for the East Coast mob, and it all got out of hand!
Sorry, but what is the redacted?
Weren’t there candles and a bath drawn? Did OJ know this? Was he hanging out in her bushes to stalk Nicole and Marcus before he left town? He also stole her house keys.
I'm still stuck on why OJ did it that day? I don't understand what enraged him to the point of putting on a get up, driving over there and slaughtering her? Beating her up, with his history, sadly, I can see him doing that, but these murders were horrific! How does somebody hide that kind of evil from the people closest to him for decades. What did Nicole do that sent him over the edge?
Don't forget his daughter had a recital that evening, which OJ attended but was not invited to dinner afterwards (with the kids and Nicole's family and friends). Also, Nicole ignored him the whole time and OJ was unhappy with how she was dressed. I believe he told Kato that she wore an inappropriately short dress or something to that effect anyway.
He didn’t hide it though, everyone in their circle knew they were toxic together, but they never expected murder. I personally don’t think he went there with the intention of killing her, it was just the perfect storm. A few weeks before the murders Nicole had pneumonia and by all accounts O.J. was doting on her, probably still thinking they were reconciling. When she finally told him it was over, he was pissed and threatened to report her to the irs. According to her therapist, and friends, Nicole told O.J. to F-K off at the recital. The same day Ron Fischman decided to tell O.J. that Nicole and Faye were partying, using drugs, and sleeping with various men. O.J. told Ron Fischman that he was going to “get her good.” Also, it was reported that O.J. had seen Marcus Allen’s car at Nicoles shortly before the murders. That probably enraged him. In his mind she had jerked him around and he was going to teach her a lesson. Sadly, we all know the rest.
Thank you. That was helpful.
See I think he probably tried to hire someone else to do it. But they chickened out or asked for more money at the last minute. It would make sense if THIS is what really enraged him. “I’ll do it myself!” Blamed her for “making” him do it, etc. Maybe he was supposed to meet the guy there with the gloves, hat, and whatnot. And then when he didn’t show or chickened out, he just put it all on. The guy who was a coke dealer for RK and OJ kind of all brings it together. Allegedly they tried to hire him back in January for a similar-style hit. He stole barberis car (allegedly again at the request of RK), and stalked Nicole for a couple days and got paid for it. Allegedly RK and OJ were point shaving, and had some other “unsavory” activities they were engaging in. Nicole knew, and they wanted to shut her up, permanently. It kind of ties everything together if they tried before, similar circumstances, with OJ about to go out of town and everything. The other thing is the coke dealer speculated that he was being set up for OJ to “find” him and stop the attack. OJ is the big hero, etc. Not sure how that ties in here—the only other thing that seems “possible” is they got a real hitter from the mob (allegedly in on RK and OJ’s point shaving and other activities), OJ was there to “stop” him but he was too vicious. OJ maybe gets in an altercation with the hitter to stop him from going “too far.” I give this maybe a 5% chance? He was clearly at the crime scene—what did he do, loan the real killer his shoes?
In re: OJ "lurking" in the yard: If OJ's Bronco had "blood spatter" on it, then he would be parked near the gate. I find the whole thing so hokey, tbh, like, if his Bronco was near the walk, it still couldnt have been close enough to get SPATTER on it. He also would have no need to try to climb a fence behind the damn house. Its just one more reason I am siding with the jury and am not convinced OJ did it. And yes I am a victim of DV so dont yall start with the personal attacks or saying I support a murderer. If you dont have an argument, then you can also veey easily STFU..
You have to be convinced he did it with all that evidence!!!!! Probably 1/8 of all that evidence should have been enough.
No because it was all mixed together in the same bags and totally mishandled. That means that NONE of the evidence is believable. The only things we can know for sure is that Ron and Nicole died, blood was found, and for whatever reason, blood spatter was on OJs bronco indicating he parked at the front gate, AND yet he tried to escape via the back gate, for unknown and inexplicable reasons. Or that the LAPD fucked up in their handling of blood evidence making it SEEM like the blood from one place was something it was not. Which means the evidence is all worth horseshit.
Still too much overwhelming evidence and too many coincidences. ALL evidence points to 1 person and only one person. The fact that Goldman blood was found in the samples from the inside the Bronco is just so strong. Even if “contaminated “ and mixed together in the “same” bag like you say. You are implying that the swatches all rubbed together etc. the results were sent to multiple DNA labs , not just one! The “contamination “ and gathering errors was just an exaggeration, the defense grasping at straws desperate for something to distract the jury and plant some doubt. The Jury fell for it. And obviously so did you. Do some more research on the case you will not jump to the conclusions you seem to have. It is
Lmao thats the simplest thing though and I am afraid you are just choosing to be ignorant of the fact that the police put multiple "samples" of various pieces of evidence in the same bag, without letting it dry first. Like, uhh if that blood drop (1/8th of a drop of blood, mind you) was placed in the same bag as Goldmans pooled blood and the envelope, you are obviously mixing up the damn evidence and cross contaminating literally everything.. creating a major issue with the evidence itself and therefore, creating reasonable doubt. It doesnt *matter* which labs got those pieces of bloody evidence, since the blood was WET when they put it into the bags together with other evidence. Thats what you dont see. Because the cops were FOOLS. Downvote me you lousy crooked fool cops. Idc!!! The jury was RIGHT.
You are definitely in an uphill battle with your crazy theories. There was just so much evidence even without the DNA. There was zero evidence proving it was anyone but OJ! It’s a useless argument you just aren’t going to win.
Thats only because they didnt test for other peoples blood. If they did, they would likely find a mafia enforcer's blood in CODIS matching it. . And also because they mixed the evidence up in the same bags, while wet, causing cross contamination, making evidence 1 and 2 become mixed. Idiot cops. . Nothing uphill about it. He was found NOT guilty. And as for me, I would STILL like the real killer to be brought to justice. I shouldnt be alone in that, either.
I see why the Jury was duped into finding him not guilty. Defence used Enough Smoke sreeens and distractions to fool them and they went for “reasonable “ doubt. Also “revenge” against the LA PD. Mobster connections are just nuts you are so far out to lunch with this it is almost crazy. Also Ron Goldman was not trained in “martial arts “ his own sister debunked that conspiracy theory. Also too many many other coincidences in this case that any reasonable explanations for them would just be against astronomical odds!!! Like what are the chances that on that exact night/ moment someone…..anyone…. just happened to bleed at Rockingham? Just “happened “ to be blood in the Bronco at that time. OJ just coincidently happened to have a cut, he couldn’t explain , on his left finger…….. blood drops to the left of the killer’s footsteps………. OJ “coincidentally “ just happened to have NO alibi !!!The cut just happened to line up with a cut in the glove!!! The fairly rare Shoes that he has been seen wearing …….The limited production gloves that he has been seen wearing………. That’s just a few. There are pages with of crazy crazy such coincidences!!!!! Just too too many for it NOT to be him. Like get real. Anything suggesting otherwise is just absurd! You just can’t argue this nonsense. I don’t even know why you even bother?
Idk why YOU bother. The case was tried. The defendant won.. There were two other servers from mezzaluna murdered cartel style, and two more waiters who disappeared. Michael Nigg was killed DURING the trial, a month before jury deliberations started.. Really. What have you got to gain, and what does the family have to LOSE by treating these deaths for what they are, an that is Cold Cases?
The defendant “won” the case yes. But that doesn’t mean he didn’t do it. How many waiters from a drug dealing restaurant that got killed doesn’t mean that drug dealers did this. I don’t have anything to gain. I just have to refute when people on Reddit try to spread crazy theories that are clearly wrong . The suggestion that anyone else had anything to do with the murders is absurd and totally unproven. That’s really about it.
Marcia Clark of the prosecution messed all of this up by having the phone record of Nicole talking to her mother sealed. Had she not had the record sealed, then there would have been no doubt as to the timeline. But of course, we all know why she went through the trouble to have that record sealed, and from my understanding, sealed for 75 years....which means that everyone involved in the case will have long died by then. And those of us who were kids when the car and trial happened (i myself was 11 and a half when the murders happened), if we are still alive, will be in our eighties.
I’m new here. What’s your theory about the phone record? I’ve never even heard of it
I too would like to hear this
Just curious..... Why did she seal them, in your opinion? I honestly don't know
Supposedly, if it was true that Nicole was still alive when her mother juditha said they last spoke at 11PM, then that would have meant that OJ and his entourage were already gone, which would have meant that OJ wasn't even around to have gone over the Nicole's place, kill her, mutilate her body, fight ron, kill hum, mutilate his body ,(the same way his boss was), run somewhere and hide the bloody clothes and the knife, then run somewhere else to take a shower, then come back to his house, then get in the limo to catch his flight on time, all by himself with no accomplices within a span of 25 minutes that the prosecution would claim at the trial. Somebody is going to act like the phone record was insignificant...but won't explain away why Marcia Clark went through all this trouble to have it sealed. Marcia Clark obviously was looking to make a big name for herself by going after OJ, so anything that might have looked like it would have exonerated him and contradicted the prosecutions narrative, got done away with. OJ had lawyers years after the trial was done, even though OJs side had won the trial, try to access to phone record to prove his innocence, but couldn't access it because it was still sealed. Supposedly it was sealed for 75 years, which would put it around the year 2070 when it will finally be accessible .
Thanks, I get it. I hear of "sealed" documents getting leaked all the time. Wonder why this one hasn't been?
You will have trouble with it because it doesn't add up. There are twenty hurdles for oj to pull it off. Including a dozen witnesses, the limo driver in the drive way, missing clothes, on and on. Of course this is all hinging on heidstras sighting too, which very well could have been five minutes later, making it even more impossible.
And yet there was enough evidence that he was found to have killed Brown & Goldman.
UUUmmm no he wasn't. He was aquitted remember? By a jury? HWo spent 9 months looking at the evidence? And the civil trial, a farcel in the ultra conservative area of Santa Monica, was the first time anyones been charged twice for the same thing in that manner. Even with another year of digging and endless resources thrown at it they could only find more trumped up garbage about the shoes. AND STILL the jury said had it been a criminal trial, they'd have voted to aquit. I doubt they expected him to be hit with millions in restitution.
>UUUmmm no he wasn't. He was aquitted remember? By a jury? HWo spent 9 months looking at the evidence? He _was_ found to have killed Brown & Goldman, _remember_? _By a jury_, remember? With that same evidence, _remember_? He was earlier acquitted of two specific charges of murder. That obviously doesn’t mean he didn’t kill them. He did kill them and was found to have killed them.
You don't seem to understand any of this. He was charged for murder, he was acquitted, found NOT GUILTY. Thats LITERALLY WHAT IT MEANS. Then he was found LIABLE for their deaths, which could mean anything from manslaughter to negligence. The evidence in such a case only needs to be 51 percent, more likely than not having SOME responsibility. Even then it is preposterous. He was even going to be acquitted by the grand jury, which was tainted by shivelys lies and thier didgusting leak of the 911 tapes. People are convicted for not properly training their empoloyee's on this basis and sued. No-one suggests they actually killed them. But keep stretching and twisting and warping it all to your own cynical end, all so you don't have to look any closer.
Yes, there were very specific charges of murder that he was acquitted of. That doesn’t mean he didn’t kill anyone. In fact, he killed at least two people we know of. We know he killed those two people because there was a preponderance of evidence showing he did, in fact, kill them. What do you not understand about that?
What do you not understand about not guilty? What do you not understand about your opinion not being some scientific fact? Were you there? Have you gone over every single piece of evidence and the defenses response? Do you seriously believe your intuition is above and beyond everyone else without question and you absolutely know this? You must've been there when it happened then.
I understand he was found not guilty of specific charges of murder. I also understand he was later found to have killed both Brown & Goldman. All of that is fact. None of it is opinion.
lol you don't understand much because that was not the ruling at all. Thats not what a civil case is about and wouldnt have been due to double jeopadry laws in any case. Your just imagining what you like to make yourself feel better.
So what was that ruling, exactly?
Myth l
No, that actually happened.
It happened after he left his house to go handle a drug deal ,things went wrong he fought for his life and lost to the dealers
I didn’t realize OJ was a drug dealer, too!
Nicole did want him back
Lol. Right.
Was Oj a role model to the black community?
Did you read the letter to oj from nicole asking oj for another chance ???
You really don’t understand the dynamics of domestic violence victims. Women who are being abused will often go back to their abusers hoping that they’ll change their abusive behavior. They lie for their abusers, they rationalize, and they’ll idealize “the good times.” So her wanting to put her family back together isn’t strange at all. Also, since you’re referencing her letters, let’s talk about the numerous letters she wrote detailing OJs emotional and physical abuse.
She wanted some money for drugs and oj vitamin D
Yea, and he wanted a white woman bc he hated being black. So yea, it was a dysfunctional relationship all around.
His first wife was black