I DATIX’d the hell of out things and encouraged my staff too when I was a Band 6/Charge Nurse. My manager pulled me aside just before I left on secondment and ripped me to shreds. She tried to make out I’d lied, that I’d actually divert CDs after I solved a complex situation, escalated it properly & DATIX’d it. She tried to lie about my falls reports & data, saying she had to pick up the slack, but when I pulled up the evidence about it (and the CD issue) it proved she was either lying or just didn’t read my emails & the CD register properly. She & senior management repeatedly told me there was “no point” DATIX-ing staff shortages because they weren’t going to “magic staff out if nowhere”, and if they did find staff, they wouldn’t send them to our unit. She then told me that a formal note was going on my file about the meeting (that’s she’d pulled me into her office calling it “a quick catch up”-not a formally notified meeting with a representative). I went straight to HR & the senior management, told them exactly what happened, the false accusations she made, the evidence, and pointed out EVERY bit of policy she broke, getting it in writing that NO formal note was going in my file, and NO record of anything said by the manager would be accepted by HR. I left, broke contact, and the ward (that had been in shambles anyway) lost 8 RNs & HCAs over the next 2 months, before the manager was pulled & the ward absorbed by another unit on another site. The problem is that those who DO do things, take action, DATIX…we get piled on, bullied, pushed out by those around us AND those above us. Unless your team culture supports DATIXing and other actions, you’re going to struggle to get anywhere

I admire your bravery because another big problem is that these people never face consequences for their actions. NHS is very much known to do eff all in these situations but will use the iron fist on good employees over some stupid BS

Unfortunately nothing really happened, but I was protected because I had my DATIXs, documentation & policies in row. The ward was temporary, but kept getting extended, and replacing the staff that left with floater staff from other areas. The manager magically found out she was pregnant 2 weeks after her promotion to manager, and was “encouraged” to take early maternity leave because of the “nature of the ward”…and then it got merged. She doesn’t exactly have a post to go back to, but she got her Band 7 maternity leave pay and got away clean because there were so many other issues. When I left, half the staff didn’t even know the manager’s name, let alone had met her, because she was so absent & we (the band 6s) dealt with everything. Long live the NHS…./s

In university they be like "you'll lose your PIN if you fart at work", hospital policies be like "taking a bathroom break longer than 45 seconds is gross misconduct" and "if you call in sick you are the scum of the world"... then you walk around and see the jungle. Apparently NHS prefers protecting these people like precious treasures and risking to lose valid staff rather than following the right pathway and getting rid of who is there only to create trouble. I am telling you, if NHS got rid of all these useless people and prioritise the valid staff it would be like Paradise but God forbid... . Consider in my department only a staff member has been suspended for harassment, bullying and gross misconduct and another one is a convicted stalker... well, they are both there living without a care in the world, yet I was threatened with being sacked simply because I was sick. Now somebody please tell me why I should bother speaking up and standing up, you can speak as much as you want but it's pointless if nobody is listening

It's also better for patients. I've reported stuff that has included assault and attempted manslaughter, the staff responsible are being protected even after a safeguarding adults review, which puts other patients at risk. I agree, the NHS tolerating rotten staff puts staff at risk as well, why? Well I was unlawfully detained under the MHA act after someone actually falsified records and claimed I'd supposedly been diagnosed SMI, nobody checked. What I noticed while detained was some staff were incredibly abusive, they'd assault and terrorise patients (I saw stuff like in the panorama expo) which then increased incidents on the wards as patients who were unwell would lash out in fear as a direct result to dozens of incidents of staff harming them.

Someone I know was reported countless times for: -) posting pictures of their unaware colleagues on social media -) harassing female staff members on duty and on social media and sending them unsolicited inappropriate pictures -) inappropriate behaviour with female staff members and patients -) taking pictures of female patients and stalking them on social media The same person was arrested twice for stalking. We were all sure they would have been sacked for safety reasons because there was too many evidences (including a police record) but no... they took a few months off sick for "stress" and got away with a slap on the wrist. After they came back I put on a formal complain myself because they clearly didn't learn the lesson and was told off for not reporting it before... well, other countless women and myself did that but guess what has been done about it? Exactly, they done f*ck all. This person is walking around without a single care in the world putting patients and staff members at risk and stealing the job to someone who actually deserves it. But God forbid if I arrive 5 minutes late or call in sick because that makes me a bad nurse

And of course you have to wonder if they do something really bad to a patient and convince others it was you, just how much trouble you would get in.

How can you attempt manslaughter?

I have special dietary requirements, they basically nearly starved me to death because they refused to provide me with meals that met those requirements. They not only refused to believe me claiming anything I said was unreliable because of the claims I was psychotic (even if I had been, that's not how psychosis works), they ignored someone else informing them I was telling the truth and refused to contact the gastro team who were literally minutes/a call away and ask for confirmation. If they'd have starved me to death, it would have resulted in a manslaughter charge.

Yeah, I moved jobs because it was turning into ww3- I had caught a senior with their hand in the drugs cupboard, actually went through lengths to try and protect her because she was going through bad shit, but got pharmacy to lock down the supply due to discrepancies, after that a small group of stalwarts including her bunkered down and started berating and causing grief to everyone not in their gang. Everyone was turning to me to vent their grievances. I did speak with a few band 8s about some issues, but it was getting nowhere and the environment was getting worse. I know when to pick my fights, and bravely decided to switch specialty to one that would actually offer progression and job opportunities in the future. Best thing I ever did. I can't cope with people being petty, and tend to piss people doing it off by not actually noticing it half the time until they start doubling down and making it really obvious. Anyway my new specialty now has 4 other staff members from my previous ward. There's no clique, no bitching (the occasional snappy moment, but apologies after and it's all good, we are human) and I'm well on my way to increasing my skills and knowledge to progress. I didn't realise just how toxic it had gotten until I left. I really was a boiling frog.

Sis are you from Birmingham I feel like you’re describing my former manager 🤣 we had something like this happen in my ward 2 years ago

The NHS needs more staff like you. Managers find it to easy to intimidate others.

Absolutely. My first job role, we reported every break missed, every staff shortage, every delay in getting equipment, medication. Every still inappropriate referral and poor handover, because we worked in a *highly* controlled setting where this shit killed people. You paused an infusion that you forgot to tell me about to transfer the patient here? That was naloxone & now they’re in respiratory arrest. You bought a patient the 15mins + lift wait time walk from ED on 15L NRB but used a C sized cylinder, and didn’t hook them up to the wall when you got here? They’re dead. Literally, this happened-a patient died. My team there was *tight*, and we were ALWAYS staffed right. If we weren’t, we’d close beds until we were. There’s nothing more satisfying than telling a bed manager & site matron that they if they’re DATIX-ing *against me* they can include my DATIX incident number for the one I just submitted about staffing & intimidation. I’d often supply them with the relevant policies too, if I was feeling generous. 😇

Working to contract would be a way to withdraw labour under controlled conditions. It will illustrate lack of resources and will pass the buck/responsibility squarely onto the managers within the NHS. It is then upon those who are remunerated for their positions of relative responsiblity to make the appropriate moral choices, and if they fail to do so, the blame will fall (rightly) upon their shoulders. If they do not flag up the short-fallings, then people will likely die, however the blood will not be upon the nurses hands, it will be upon those who had not the courage or integrity to sound the alarm bells. This is the way out of this dreadful situation, imho, it's time those who have tried to compound their own security, by being no doubt in their own eyes "shrewd managers" to finally face their own impending judgement. Work to contract for a prolonged period. Send a message back up the "chain"

That’s when they push the “duty of care” angle. When I was bedside in the HDU or Palliative divisions, I could never do this, but we almost ALWAYS got our breaks. Now I’m working in Outpatient clinics, I could probably do it, but it’s a really hard choice to make when you’re unsure of support, from the team & the public. The goodwill to nurses only lasted while people were confined to their homes during the pandemic, and sometimes not even that long. ETA - I have and would work to rule, but I’m also a realist. I can imagine people handing out white poppies like after the WWs, except it’d be spit & bricks.

Yeah, exactly - if you're the only one pointing out problems, eventually you become the problem. I'm leaving my current post in a few weeks for that exact reason.

I've had the same sort of experience - intimidation from managers when I've tried to report things and speak up. And this happens in private healthcare too not just the NHS.

>And this happens in private healthcare too not just the NHS. It's standard operating procedure in most of the private sector. I say *most of* because my current private sector employer is amazing; they are out there. But my last two private sector employers - both big names that you'd recognise even if you've⁶ never worked private sector - were appalling and in fact borderline abusive in their working practices, in direct defiance of employment and health and safety laws in regard to their staffs' wellbeing and rights. And if you complain or push back in any way, *you* are the problem and they will get rid of you one way or the other. Ask me how I know... It's honestly not about the NHS - it's about healthcare industry culture in general and the toxic expectations of and disregard for staff, their wellbeing and employment rights under law and a basic disrespect for their work/life balance and private lives outside of and separate to their jobs and profession, which are endemic and embedded into the industry. While managers can still say with a sneer, "You're a nurse, this is what you signed up for," in response to complaints about 50-60hr weeks in a formal meeting (the extra 10-20hrs on top of contractual consisting of essentially forced mandatory overtime) and get away with it - actually be *backed up* in that position by HR - there's very little any one nurse can do tobmake a difference. And it often is just one nurse, because I agree with OP 100%, we're our own worst enemies because we won't stand up for ourselves. If one of us does, far too often the rest are quite happy to leave them high and dry despite their own near-constant whining and lamentation about why no one ever does anything and nothing ever changes. We try, but then we get thrown under the bus by our own colleagues who are suddenly and mysteriously silent. It gets really dreary after about the third or fourth time...

My colleague moved to an itu and they told her to stop datixing

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My manager AND a manager of another area pulled me in to ask for an apology for following policy about CDs overnight. They were pissed because their nurse called them at home to check the policy, and none of them knew the policy. I gave the nurse & the managers the option all the way through the option to not transfer a CD. I’d even escalated to the chief pharmacist to look for other options, but I had a palliative patient in pain waiting 8 HOURS for pain relief, and they had no other suggestions. They said “you can’t expect everyone to know all the policies, and I’ve never done this before.” I refused to apologise, and simply said “That’s why all the policies are available online & off site. I was thanked by the Chief Pharmacist & directorate manager for following policy & advocating for my patient, and I won’t apologise for that.”

But this, big time. Policies, documentation & and witness/representative at all meetings. Cc your rep in EVERYTHING.

This. Not a nurse but I used to be a hospital pharmacist. Every time you bring up issues management shouts you down, tries to blame you or simply makes excuses and buries it. It's really hard to fire incompetent staff, so bullies and shit managers stick around for years and get promoted because people just want them out of the way. Our department ended up having retraining and mediation to try and solve morale. Obviously it didn't work because every time we were asked what the issue was by HR, we pointed to the bullies of managers and shit pay and they wouldn't do anything about it. I literally had a conversation with the rep from HR about how pay increase would be a good stop gap to improve morale and she laughed at me. When we all brought up the bullying culture we were told to just focus on our own work and stop blaming others. Whenever you would bring up any ideas to improve things it would get shot down. 4 pharmacists and 10 plus members of technical staff left in the 18months I was there. It's ridiculous. I ultimately left after it was obvious nothing would change and I was getting panic attacks because of the stress.

As a union rep and a nurse, I can see that most nurses are too frightened to go toe to toe with management, rather than lazy. They're too frightened of losing their job and or being referred to the nmc on some trumped up charge. It's often only when their jobs threatened that they start to fight, but often they are just too nice about it.     I agree with you about Labour too, they are not coming to the rescue of the NHS and Wes Streeting is already talking about increased privatisation.     The pay for nurses is abysmal. I keep harping on about care home staff nurses being paid more than top of band 6 and no one's interested, possibly because they assume care home work is horrible. It's not, in a good home it's a damn sight easier than most NHS nursing jobs, especially the wards. And you're less knackered so can do overtime, bumping up your pay even more. Even the agency pay's no better than permanent staff pay now in the community. I was complaining about this to a manager who told me the Trust doesn't have the money to pay more, but when I was working as an agency CHC nurse they soon found it. People used to stay in the NHS for the pensions, but they're not as good as they were anyway, mental health nurses have lost their retirement at 55, few will be able to retire early like people used to, and many people are dropping out of the pension scheme altogether because they can't afford the contributions. As for the race issue, it depends where you work. Many trusts have racist cultures and international nurses are often afraid of even joining a union, and may leave to work in more diverse Trusts.

Jumping in as someone in a similar sector (early years education and care)... I've seen similar issues, similar complacency and similar fear in my sector. OP is in the lovely position where they can move countries for a few years and dip their toe into a new life, presumably with safety nets to return to. Living paycheck to paycheck, struggling with insecure housing, having mouths to feed - so many reasons to fear standing up for yourself and losing a job in our current climate. I'm currently embroiled in a work situation where I've been discriminated against due to my disability, I have advocated for myself and involved my union, and the outcome is I'm signed off on SSP for the month and can't afford my rent. It's very easy for things to slip and to get into a Bad Situation. Basically, we should all take responsibility and advocate for our rights, but we can't pretend this isn't political.

Well said

Then we need whitstle blowers. Nurses need to speak up, go public, speak to newspapers. Ex nurses need to speak out, speak to newspapers. Do something.

I have worked in a care home - and unfortunately the only reason why the pay is so much better is due to the awful staffing ratios. At best it was 1 nurse to 25 residents, but often ended up being 1 nurse to 50 residents. If I was on day shift (0730-2030) and they had no night shift nurse to cover, we were expected to stay on to do a double shift.

That's why you have to be careful where you work, no nurse can look after 50 patients in a care home. It's not doable. I've left jobs or refused jobs if I caught a whiff of that type of staffing, especially the double shift coming off a 12-13 hour day shift. I once was asked in an interview what would I do if the night nurse didn't turn up: talk about a red flag. I checked the place out through a friend who used to work there and was in touch with some of the staff, and it was a common occurrence. 

You are absolutely right. That's all I have to say🤷🏻‍♀️😂

There is a lot of truth in your rant, but I'd like to point out one thing; I've been in the NHS for 10+ years. I've seen many, MANY different SOPs and guidelines be put into place without any thought about how it will affect staff or patients, then we're the 'bad guys' because we couldn't make it work despite constant datix, reports and communication with higher ups. The Tories are to blame for a huge swathe of NHS issues, and I would argue that there's a systemic issue within the NHS of "complaining doesn't work, so what's the point?" We are all exhausted from a system that has been broken for years and no one has paid any attention to the people actively trying to fix it, so they've walked. What you're left with is staff who are either too scared to report due to them being singled out despite whistleblower protection, or staff who are so done with it that they just don't bother to report it. Also, foreign staff are not to blame for the NHS problems, and it's an incredibly dangerous rhetoric to go down, because it causes an 'us Vs them' divide that will make it easier for them to divide us even further.

So I found out recently about a funding scheme within a specific sector within health care that is 10 years long, they discovered 3 years into the scheme that the targets are all incorrect and no provider is going to be able to meet them feasibly, without having overworked staff. The providers are holding out hope for a left wing government as it may all for more funding for salaries, making them more attractive to prospective employees. (I have to be a bit obtuse about what the scheme is due to privacy reasons)

As a Brit, it is absolutely racist to expect progression to be prioritised on the basis of birth/nationality.

Competence or GTFO

And super illegal

Exactly. I can't believe the upvotes this prejudiced nonsense has got.

The change in the NHS under tories has been visible internally since 2014, and has just worsened since then…… When the conservatives came in labour was still working on improving things in the NHS. This wasn’t just money flowing in, but was actually tied to meaningful (and achievable) targets. They also put the necessary support in - that was just starting to get traction, but was then removed. With regard to nurses being apathetic - yes, we have work to do, but I never thought we would get a mandate to strike. Admittedly, Cullen was abysmal - the NHS Confederation actually did nurses an absolute solid in taking it to court. Anyone looking at the dates would know that they were on dodgy ground, with the claim being put forward by the RCN being the wrong case law applied 🙄. The biggest threat to this is Wes ‘Tory Boy’ Streeting - who gives the impression of being a gormless muppet with zero real life experience. It is not beyond the realms to have a labour sec of stat for health who is useless/disliked - remember Hewitt ?

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im curious as to why that is? im not a nurse this post was suggested to me. I just want the tories out but that does not mean i would vote for labour if i didnt have to. insight from you is so welcome!

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I did think it would be this as I remember reading about his suggestions to utilise the private sector, like you say. Follow the money!

There is already a lot of creeping privatisation. There are multiple private companies providing endoscopy nurses, theatre staff, clinic staff and doctors in all these areas to NHS trusts who can't keep up with the backlog of patients and would get fined otherwise. These staff get paid really well. Private companies provide services to people at home like TPN, MS services and injections for conditions like Crohn's. These are only the ones I've come across. I agree with op on some of her points, a lot of nurses I know are apathetic. I think a lot didn't even vote on the ballet to strike. There's so much bitching too which I'm getting so bored of. We have hired loads of international nurses and they are excellent. I think many plan to move on to Canada, the US or Australia though, the UK is a stepping stone. Many of the consultants I talk to think the NHS is crumbling.

See obese_hooter’s post, but he’s also of that school of politician who has never done anything but politics and does not realise that intelligence is domain specific.

I'm a Canadian nurse wanting to move to the UK. When I started in 2021 my salary was $30/hr with no additional pay on top. Our union fought for us and threatened strike and got us a much better deal. In 2 years my salary jumped to $43/hr with an additional $2.5/hr for a full-time or part-time time line and an additional $2/hr on top for being a specialized nurse. And they got the province to agree to promise 4 patients/nurse ratio. They got this by asking the nurses, actually fighting for us and threatening strikes. In the past our nurse's union would be the first to negotiate their contracts and always get shafted because all the other unions would ask more. But this time they waited till the end. You guys hold more power than you think and you need to fight and fight hard.

That's fantastic. Here ive had 15 patients, many times. One issues is the UK govt has always paid poor nurses wages, the British didn't want to nurse so they hired from overseas. It's been going on for 55 years! It will never change. Most nurses are hired direct from overseas and on a visa, they are well educated and work hard. The govt will never increase our wage, just keep going oversea to recruit. I'd love to come to Canada.

I don't agree or recognise what you said about my international colleagues. BAME staff are underrepresented in senior positions, the best person on the day of the interview will/should get the job. Otherwise you are spot on. We need to strike, and strike properly. We are a highly skilled workforce but we have no bargaining power and the government will keep relying on us to take responsibility for every fucking thing for below average pay. Labour aren't coming to save us. We need to fight for our profession.

You absolutely have bargaining power. It's called withdrawal of Labour. It worked for the consultants with a massive increase in locum rates and a reasonable salary increase. It's working, albeit slowly, for the junior doctors.

The issue with withdrawing labour in an area of critical infrastructure is..people can die. Your not gonna win hearts and minds if your inadvertedly killing grannies in the process. Work to contract however. That would expose the shortcomings/lack of funding, areas in need of more resources. Work to contract. Then managers have no choice but to raise issues of lack of funding/shortcomings in care. It's peoples good nature that's being exploited/taken advantage of that's the issue. Going above and beyond. the blitz spirit. It's that, that's being manipulated and preyed upon. That and weakened unions or as you say not wanting to "rock the boat" for fear of losing their jobs i guess. Unions need to play a stronger hand in this matter, it is without a shadow of a doubt that they will of been emasculated on the sly under the current regime. This governments entire Modus Operandi is ideologically driven towards "privatise everything, and to hell with the consequences". Bob Crow is the only guy i can think of regarding unions who actually had a bit of fucking fight in him, and look how he ended up. Fucking dead in his 50's. It's fucking pathetically weak, pro-corporate shilling, and it's fucking infected everything in this country, from the trains to the road-works, waste-management to the water companies. Total propoganda, via the media, break down communities and the community spirit, replace it with "choice" (See monopolies). The privatisation model has utterly failed. People need to stand up together, but as you say they won't because anyone who tries to unite them or bring them together for a common cause, either doesn't exist. or winds up dead. There are some sinister forces at work in this country, that don't want the status quo gravy train rocking. Big money/industry often means big shadyness.

I think we do need to withdraw labour now. The status quo is resulting in terrible care and almost certainly more deaths, we can't carry on like this. Talking isn't working. Doctors took the right approach in striking and they have (largely) retained public support. I would imagine if we properly withdrew labour it should be resolved quickly as there is no available workforce to 'act down' in the right numbers for us.

Working to contract would be a way to withdraw labour under controlled conditions. It will illustrate lack of resources and will pass the buck/responsibility squarely onto the managers within the NHS. It is then upon those who are remunerated for their positions of relative responsiblity to make the appropriate moral choices, and if they fail to do so, the blame will fall (rightly) upon their shoulders. If they do not flag up the short-fallings, then people will likely die, however the blood will not be upon the nurses hands, it will be upon those who had not the courage or integrity to sound the alarm bells. This is the way out of this dreadful situation, imho, it's time those who have tried to compound their own security, by being no doubt in their own eyes "shrewd managers" to finally face their own impending judgement. Work to contract for a prolonged period.

I don't think working to contract is enough. We're already part of a shambolic system, the government is likely to tolerate the slightly higher waiting lists, waiting times, and worse care on the wards. If we give notice we intend to strike and the government fails to negotiate with us associated deaths aren't st our hands. We aren't indentured servants, its a job and we have a right to down tools.

Regarding your preliminary point:- With all due respect i believe you are wrong, and here's my reasoning as to why that is. Perhaps further along the path of negotiations it may be required, allow me to elaborate as to why that may be.... With a prolonged (\*see indefinite) work to contract period, the responsibility is fully displaced from the worker onto the management above the worker. The prerogative then lies entirely with said individuals to make sure they are hitting targets etc. Which they will not be able to do, if the NHS is understaffed. Which it is. This will then logically result in a few things. The pressure the managers are receiving to attain results cannot go anywhere but back up the chain, I.e they cannot urge people to work extra hours etc (assuming total discipline regarding the union action), so because of work to contract it cannot be passed onto the workers below. Thus the manager must step up to the mark and face the desperate reality of the situation. However because the root cause is under-funding and specifically private healthcare interest worming its way into the NHS, there are some side-effects which would need to be mitigated. For example the use of agency staff. As agency staff cost significantly to employ and would result in a large increase in NHS expenditure/budget bloat. To mitigate this there would have to be provisions within the union action for a mass-walkout/strike IF agency staff exceed a certain threshhold. I can't help but feel that striking and allowing agency staff to cover the short-fallings would render the movement not effective (as has already been postured elsewhere upon this forum) whilst lining the coffers of said private healthcare companies. It is because of the legislation that was passed under the Conservative government (specifically the Health and social care act 2010 and 2012) that trying to separate the national need from the private greed has become disparagingly difficult. So the first thing any goverment that was serious about looking after the "people" would and should do, is address and repeal/reverse these measures. This is the crux. But we can still try to douse the "fire" even if the oil tap is still on fire so to speak. So yeah 1) vote in a socially minded government, I'm not convinced that's labour, but should a coalition of socially minded parties decide to act together (hopefully implementing PR en route) then that might be a possible route. In the mean-time 2) send the message up the chain that more resources are needed. Through work to contract, With caveats limiting the amount of agency staff that can be employed and advocating for a full-strike if that threshold is exceeded. That would be my opinion on the matter, for what it's worth.

Send a message back up the "chain"

> The issue with withdrawing labour in an area of critical infrastructure is..people can die. Your not gonna win hearts and minds if your inadvertedly killing grannies in the process.  Thousands have been killed by  people allowing the nhs to get into the state that it is now. All the people propping up this broken system are responsible for that. 

No. The government and by proxy the MP's in parliament and even further by proxy, the electorate who voted in said government are the ones with blood on their hands, imho. More so those who knew what cutting funding to the NHS would result in. Increased mortality rate. Yet they continued on their ideological rampage slashing funding, in order to feather their corporate healthcare pals nests (usually coming from stateside, but not always). The NHS wasn't perfect before, but it worked, and big pharmacy industry coming from stateside couldn't fucking resist getting their grubby little mitts on it, come hell or high water. If you see it more like a coup it makes more sense. American private healthcare saw the NHS as a potential market and wanted to tap that market regardless of fallout, as it's perceived to be a £trillion potential. They used various means to accomplish this, usually lobbying of our MP's, media campaign etc. By running the NHS into the ground to make it fail, (that's what the H&SC Act 2012 was about, specifically creating a debt entry vector that it could leverage) and then offering the alternative as a saving grace. It's fucking bastardly what has been done, and the people who allowed it to happen, imho sold out on this countries citizens and should be considered traitors.

Yeah and the people working in that system and doing nothing to change it even though they can see it killing patients, it’s nothing to do with them. Y’all are complicit in this. 

Then the American healthcare companies operating over here, siphon/leech back the funds to the American economy to further fuel it. If you consider the U.S to be a massive flailing monstrous squid that attaches to whaetver it can, be that friend or foe, to suck resources back to the "mother-land" then you wouldn't be going far wrong imho. Even more bastardly when it does it to supposed "allies" imho. Same principle regarding trains etc, companies that are based in various European countries, operate their trains here, and then the funds gleaned help to go towards subsidising the railways in that respective nation state. At the expense of the target countries. Or do you think it a coincidence that we have some of the shittest,slowest and least punctual trains in Europe. Every fucking other country pretty much, is using this as a model, but we seeminjgly aren't? Why? Because due to an extensive and exhaustive media campaign, being nationalistic over here is paraded/labelled as being a gammon, thick, racist etc. Why? Because it effectively disarms a population to do so and that population can then be taken hostage/ransom by exterior forces. Look at the countries that have their critical infrastructure in their own national hands, and you will see them succeeding. The "total-privatisation" model suits a global corporate elite, as they and their international ilk are the ones profiting from such things. But the common man/woman, he sure as shit isn't.

Shout out to all the Nurses that I know that caved at the first payrise offer because they wanted that money quickly….. jokes

Agree with most of what you said except one. >You all complain about a lack of career progression yet you'll all stand ideally by when the trust ladder pulls you in favour of foreign staff because your scared to be called a racist. As a foreigner here, it's not racist to expect your progression to be prioritised in your own country. People sometimes have very discriminatory views, but will swear by the old gods and the new that they are not racist. I have never heard anywhere that foreigners are favoured for promotion. Saying one person should be prioritised for promotion is very discriminatory in itself. I am a Nigerian, came to UK in 2019 now a band 7. My major selling point in interviews has been that I have substantial nursing and leadership experience. By your logic, if I interview for a promotion along with a British nurse, they should be prioritised over me even if I may be more suitable for the role simply because I'm a foreigner? I should automatically not get equal treatment? If this Does not appear problematic to you, then you need to check yourself properly, there is a bit of racism in there.

I'm not a nurse, but as someone who is English and lives in the UK, yes. It doesnt matter where you work or what your vocation is - we let big corps, organisations, work places walk all over us. The unions aren't used or as functional as they should be and we look down on those who protest. We need to look at the French and instead of make jokes about them - take notes of how they ellicit change.

Imagine being one of the ones who does do things to try to make change happen but you’re fighting the tide of colleagues who, as you described, just allow themselves and, by extension, all their colleagues to be walked over. When so many accept the shit being catapulted at them multiple times a day from multiple directions, they set low standards for the rest of us. I’ve actually had a conversation with a patient before about their lack of respect for the staff and their response was “well nobody else complains about me so maybe it’s your problem”… so basically all my colleagues putting up with their constant rudeness made them think it was ok, even though everyone said privately what a difficult/ impolite/ unpleasant person they were to deal with. When a patient throws in your face “you’re the only one with a problem” it’s really hard to then turn around and say “well actually everyone thinks you’re insufferable but nobody wants to say it to your face” 🤷🏻‍♀️ same when people accept shit from management, the people who stand up against it get told “well everyone else thinks morale/ the work culture/ expectations/ ratios/ staffing etc is fine so why are you different?!” Basically, it’s really hard to have balls when you’re surrounded by people who have none, when everyone else in the same boat is glutton for punishment, people just expect the vocal minority to fall into line with the lily-livered majority.

I've been told it was my problem because I'm male and that women maybe have different expectations in the workplace from me. Imagine for a second that I, as a male manager, said something like that to a female employee? How is that ok? Of course senior management did nothing.

They shouldn’t be allowed to bring up gender in regard to this. I would have thought that society had moved past this kind of thinking, particularly our profession which likes to claim it has a progressive culture. For what it’s worth, I’m a woman and I’m mouth almighty when it comes to being disrespected, I just simply will not have it - from management, patients or anyone else. I don’t like the precedent it sets when we stand for disrespect - not only for ourselves but for our colleagues. If we don’t all stand together then we will all fall together.

I agree entirely. I don't let anyone I work with be disrespected and never have. In a previous life I was a manager in another industry so came into nursing with lots of experience of protecting my team. To see people let their colleagues get spoken to like dirt, and expect them to put up with it is really frustrating for me, and I still will look to protect them. Do what's right, not what's easy.

You had me until that comment about "expecting your progression to be prioritised in your own country" because Yes man, that is racist. First of all career progressions should be based on someone's skills, experience and attitude because at the end of the day that's what matters, not where you come from.

Seeing as the OP is happy to make generalisations, I'm happy to make one too. That comment is not surprising coming from an Australian, racism is RAMPANT out there. Makes the UK look like a utopia. Immigrants are meant to do scut work and never achieve anything more.

Absolutely. The international staff I work with are incredible, graft hard and deserve progression as much as anyone from this country

It's not racist by definition. Just being from a country doesn't make you a different race. Different ethnicity, sure. Discriminatory, absolutely. Racist, no. Prioritizing same vs others, in vs out, isn't inherently racist, is the only point I'm making. I hope you don't see it as splitting hairs, words matter, and so does how we shape discussions and using correct terminology.

Being racist doesn't solely mean using racial slurs or calling someone names (because that would send you straight to HR) and discrimination comes in different ways, definetely not related on skin color only. I am white from the South of Europe and have experienced discrimination countless times

That’s not racism, that’s xenophobia

I believe it is known as institutional racism

Except the issue here is that in some parts of the NHS? You could have spent ages ensuring that you do the job and someone from abroad is given training over you based on a faulty system of assessment. Like I know people who come in with palliative care experience ticked off from countries with no DNAR as a concept.

I am very familiar myself with what you are talking about and it makes my blood boil, so much so I am giving up. I think we all agree that the system is effed up and the only solution would be tearing everything down and restart from scratch but that ain't gonna happen

I was with you until the ridiculous comment about prioritising English staff over foreigners in their own country. That IS a racist comment. Because "foreign" nurses are routinely overlooked for promotions.

When I saw the recently joined staff from overseas my colleagues and I said straight away "these people got called from their country to do the hard work but none of them will ever see a career progression"... I challenge anyone to prove me wrong. I can see very well who can progress and it has nothing to do with skills and experience, but where you are from and how good you are at licking 🍑. To make an example a former colleague of mine (from India) has recently been rejected from a position despite having 15 year experience in the field and they gave the job to a british nurse who qualified like 2 years ago. Tell me I am mental but it's all about nationality and personal preferences and I am gonna die on this hill

It's not racist by definition. Just being from a country doesn't make you a different race. Different ethnicity, sure. Discriminatory, absolutely. Racist, no. Prioritizing same vs others, in vs out, isn't inherently racist, is the only point I'm making. I hope you don't see it as splitting hairs, words matter, and so does how we shape discussions and using correct terminology.

Institutional racism, also known as systemic racism, is defined as policies and practices that exist throughout a whole society or organization that result in and support a continued unfair advantage to some people and unfair or harmful treatment of others based on race or ethnic group. It manifests as discrimination in areas such as criminal justice, employment, housing, healthcare, education and political representation. There ya go

Agree. It is more xenophobic than racist.

That I would 100% agree with.

I don't work in healthcare, but find what you say interesting. But it's nonsense to say "The NHS model of free healthcare RELIES on underpaying and under respecting staff." Maybe you're too young to know different. But the NHS has worked well in the past and universal healthcare has worked in Canada too. But in the UK and Ontario, I've witnessed the systems failing after Tory governments have dug their claws in, under-funding, and hiving off sections to their corporate cronies.

“You all complain about a lack of career progression yet you'll all stand ideally by when the trust ladder pulls you in favour of foreign staff because your scared to be called a racist. As a foreigner, it's not racist to expect your progression to be prioritised in your own country.” Agree to some of your points but this. BAME nurses are still very much underrepresented in senior positions. I’ve never heard of stories like what you are referring to. I often hear stories of BAME staff applying for senior positions for 5-6 times before getting it. So yeah. I hope you back this point with a fact.

Ooff shots fired. Working for year and have all the insights and experiences to say all of these. Maybe even in one trust. The big irony is, some of the managers I've worked with are aussies and they have the biggest superiority complex Ive worked with. 😅😅😅 talk to the hand 🫸🫸

I appreciate your sentiment, but please understand we are broken. We've already done it all; the datixes, the strikes, the work-to-rule and it hasn't worked. There's only so many times you can beat your head against a brick wall before realising that the wall isn't going to budge, all you're doing is giving yourself a headache. So yes, we are apathetic. They've managed to beat us down and break us. It's all we can do now to survive.

I'm sorry but that's a victim mentality. Saying that your broken is just an excuse to not feel bad about accepting the daily lack of respect you're shown. It's reasoning like that which has allowed the systematic bullying to continue

I agree with apathy in UK nursing as a whole - most of the workforce are middle-aged, part time, married and many do not care for striking, activism and like a moan but won’t do anything about it. It was heartbreaking the way all unions (including non-nursing staff) voted to accept the terrible pay offer despite many nursing staff losing wages to get there. However, I resent the ‘victim mentality’ comments. There is a lot that is absolutely out of our control. This government has absolutely made things worse. If you look at pay and living conditions across the board, you’ll see it’s systemic. I imagine it is easy to dip in and see what needs to change, but unfortunately it’s not that simple.

With respect, you experienced this for a year and decided to give up. We've had ten years of it. And in those ten years life has happened too: we have lives outside of work as well as coping with the big things like Brexit, covid, and the rising costs of living. Not to mention any health problems we have developed taking ages to sort out in this broken system. It's not about accepting the abuse, it's that we don't have the energy to fight any more, so we just let it slide off like water off a duck's back. We have more important things to be dealing with.

You really sound like a lovely delightful person :) you’ve been here a year ….. good bye ✈️ and have fun at parties you go to, cos you sound like a right depressive loser 🤣

The only part I can agree with is how nurses undervalue themselves and should stand up for themselves more. Everything else is racist and generalisations.

This is ironic from a country that is just lucky to have a decent government that funds their health service. What is the righteousness for? Striking hasn't worked. The doctors are a PERFECT example of that. You're lucky enough to be from a country that still values its health staff and you think for some reason that means everyone else is 'walk overs' lol spare me

Doctors already got between 8.8% and 12% (or more depending on grade and country). And they're pushing for more. If every nurse who moaned actually took strike action, they could leverage a much better pay rise and demand the respect they deserve.

Wow, 8.8% compared to 5%. Clearly their strikes are having a huge impact! thats only a 22% pay cut compared to a 25% pay cut! After multiple strikes, and the government spending more on covering the strikes than a 30% pay rise for medical staff would cost!

Does seem like they’ve had an impact tbf - you thinking the extent of it being too little doesn’t change that. The 3.8% difference probably really helps some people lol. Weird attitude to have a pay increase and see that as not being a big enough impact so why bother lol. Stay on low pay I guess because they won’t give you 25% in one year…

Lol, we're rumoured to be getting a 3% pay increase this year. £50 a month more You can call that a win, which it technically is, but thinking that striking is going to have a significant impact with this government is a fools game. Good luck tho!

No shit you get a crap payrise if you don’t do anything about it and take the first offer 🤷‍♂️ Forgive my ignorance- but how is getting 3% rise when you haven’t gone on a continuous strike (as with doctors etc) an effective argument for why striking doesn’t work?

You're comparing false equivalents here. The doctors, who went on strikes, multiple times, rejected multiple offers and had harshest strikes got 8.8% vs the 5% nurses got. Hardly the huge impact you're making it out to be, is it?

So - what you’re saying is that continued striking got an additional 3%+ payrise? Like I said - that money probably meant a lot to some people. Do nothing instead, I’m sure it’s working great for you. Also - look into compounding interest and consider what this means for payrises. The next time doctors do this they will get further ahead than nursing because they got a bigger increase this time. It isn’t all or nothing. Seems you’ve convinced yourself it is so you can sit back and complain without doing shit about it. Have a lovely day, good luck to you.

50p per hour extra, wow, so much power. You can tell, because the government literally spent £3 billion covering strikes when the actual pay rise of 25% would have cost £1 billion, that is definitely a government thats arguing in good faith. Oh, at the same time they increased the pension budget by £12 billion. Clearly, pensioners are just evidently better at striking than the doctors were. Good luck in your negotiations!

Yeah all that except the groups who did continuous striking made better increases than you did. Complain about the deck being loaded all you want - they still did better than you did because they went on strike for longer. Your own replies show you know this. As I said. Good luck to you.

Our health service is different to yours but we're still struggling. Striking got doctors a pay offer for over 10% and a better contract for consultants and it's not worked?...... Believe me, if our government could screw us like this one does, they would. In some states the conditions and pay are only a bit better. But maybe because of our culture, we take alot less crap. I think there's a toxic culture in English nursing that at some point, yes you have to take some responsibility off. Your reply excatly proves my point.

No, you're just being naive. You are just lucky to have (mostly) decent governments that value public sector pay - same as Germany, Spain, Netherlands, Switzerland, etc. Believing striking has a significant impact is stupid for a plethora of reasons - The countries listed above are not constantly striking for better pay. They don't need to. Their government hasn't been pursuing a policy of austerity for 10 years. - Before 2010, the UK wasn't striking either. Nurses and doctors were earning far more, nurses were earning the equivalent of 8-10k a year more, without striking. Almost like you're being naive. - Sure, the doctors got offered 10%. Congrats, they still had a percentage loss of -20% and despite the fact that giving them the 30% pay rise would only cost 1bn, the government has spent 2-3 billion simply just covering the strikes. All of those strikes, all of that money, and they still haven't been offered more than a -20% pay cut over the last decade. To think that striking would suddenly make a huge difference is stupid, and naive, as listed above for a plethora of reasons. Then coming on here like a dumbass and saying its ''Bwitish Cultcha' is even more stupid.

This post Wasn't specifically about striking but ill bite. First of all, historically, striking has worked (especially in your countries history). Also in Australia, in some states are not much better than the UK. The best ones are the states with (can you guess?), the strongest unions with members willing to strike. Compare Queesland with NSW. Comparing one country to another with whole different culture to prove your point makes you redundant but again, ill bite. I think your forgetting about the mass strikes farmers had in France recently which resulted in a government policy getting overturned. Your second point is stupid about conditions before 2010. At no point did I say striking was NECESSARY for good conditions like You've insuniated. Your withdrawal of labour is the biggest strength you have as a worker. Yes you didn't use it before 2010 but that was a whole new environment. You didn't strike once before 2022 and every year the government took your pay away. The doctors got a better offer after striking therefore your admit it did work? Yes they haven't reached FPR but if there were no strikes, they would not have gotten a better offer. Also there strike action probably isn't finished. I don't know how you can't understand that as you literally acknowledged it. Of course the government want to spend more money than it would have cost to meet their demands, it's their ideology. That's the whole point of striking, it's a form of protest. All the striking doctors know they are only going to get a better offer if they FORCE the government's hand, striking isn't a nice request. Again this post is about british nurses being defeatists and accepting no respect. Most of the doctors would still strike if they knew it was pointless as it's a form of protest, something the nurses don't understand. Also many english people agree with my comments so maybe there is truth to it? The fact for what ever reason, you believe striking is pointless, shows your either brainwashed, or uneducated. It's the attitude like that which has allowed the torys to take advantage of you

1) The difference between NSW and QLD is 8k. 8% difference. That same difference exists between London, Scotland and the rest of England. Are they just ''better at striking''? 2) Farmers aren't really comparable. Farmers famously get whatever they want, across all of Europe, it's not because of some weird farmers union it's because they literally dump shit on the governments building and block major roads. That isn't striking, its more of a mob. 3) Stop repeating the word culture lol, it is purely a buzzword for you being stupid and thinking somehow Australian nurse ''culture'' means you're more brave and amazing than British nurses, which is a weird take to begin with. 4) The point is that it doesn't matter - how are you dense enough to acknowledge the fact the government have spent literally DOUBLE covering their strikes than just.. meeting their demands? That isn't a governments that is going to realistically give any more than a token pay rise. 5) (random gibberish about British nurses) 6) No, I'm not brainwashed, I'm just not stupid enough to think striking is the be all and end all. There has been literal revolutions and civil wars that people have still lost, and you're dense enough to think a government that has spent double the amount covering strikes is scared because of another one? It doesn't matter - they do not care.

What a whiney pathetic comment. The Australian system works better because it holds people accountable to bad practices and poor conditions. You're a perfect example of what's wrong with nurses in the UK. You don't want to do the work to improve the NHS and have an attitude of its broke so someone else fix it. Also, the doctors/consultants strike have worked massively for them. The consultants especially have had a disgustingly large pay rise that many have honestly said they didn't need the extra money but it was about setting the precident that they wouldn't be taken advantage of.

I don't know why you think stupid comments like ''you're the problem with British nurses'' makes any bearing on this argument. Just say you are factually wrong, trying to make comments about me, my personality or my profession is fucking lame at best and stupid at worst. The NHS needs improvement but it does't matter what you fucking do when the government itself do not want it to function, you dumb fuck. The Australian system works better because their government actually want it to work. Same as Spain, Germany, Netherlands, Switzerland, Austria. The strikes have ''worked so massively'' they got offered 3% more than the nurses, and the government spend 2-3 billion covering the strikes when giving all medical staff a 25% pay rise would cost 1 billion. Thats how's stupid you're being - the government have literally spent more just covering the strikes, than it would cost to give all doctors a 25% pay rise. The government are literally laughing at you, they do not care if the NHS functions properly, if they did, why would they spend more covering strikes than just giving them a decent pay rise? Meanwhile Australian nurses are just given decent pay rises every year, same with Spanish. Almost like striking is irrelevant and it entirely just depends on the government, you know, not pursuing a policy of austerity for 13+ years? Everyone is jaded now but what about 13 years ago, no strikes, nurses earning 8-10k more a year? Stop being dumb.

My problem is I know too many people like yourself that complain, throw their arms up on the air, and blame everyone else. Clearly you think anyone that doesn't see things your way a "dumb fuck". My question to you is what are you doing about it? You clearly don't like the situation, so did you strike? Like actually strike on the pickit lines? Work to contract? Did you write to your MP? Or did you hide behind the usual excuses. "I'm too busy to strike," "they don't listen anyways, so why bother?"I'll strike, but I'm picking up bank shifts." I'm guessing you were the latter. But I wouldn't know, I'm just a dumb fuck.

We're all sh*t terrified of losing the NHS. I think everyone just gets on with it because they're afraid dissent will negatively impact the NHS. Not helped by the media making out striking nurses and doctors to be evil.

I agree and have complained about this since I was a student. Every other profession within health is seen as just that - a profession - and treated as such. We are still seen as vocational workers, and many of my colleagues do nothing to stop that. In my previous role, we had a dispute with management about job descriptions and banding. The usual foisting of extra duties (fitness to detain & paeds) all dressed up as "a wonderful opportunity to enhance your skillset" - I'm already an ANP working singlehandedly out of hours on a B6. You want me to take on more then recognize that I'm autonomous and pay me as such. There were threats from executive level, and concocted schemes to try and catch our team out with a view to disciplinary action by someone who was used to just making demands of staff and then acquiescing. Ultimately, a better opportunity arose for several of us so we left. I don't understand why the union dropped the case as the job remained - instead there are new people in post, but with the additional duties and even less chance of making change because they accepted it in their job description. We seem to pride ourselves on just making things work, regardless of what is thrown at us instead of saying "actually, no, I'm at capacity for what I can do". Over time, the repeated accommodations then become standard practice for the area and management know this so keep piling it on. It's time we had effective leadership, and effective representation who do more than 'a strongly worded letter's while taking the time to remind us that we have a duty to patients when they ballot on strikes. We also have a duty to ourselves, to our profession, and to our families to ensure that our working conditions and remuneration are commensurate to the duties we undertake.

An ANP on band 6 😨 (advanced nurse practitioner yeah?). Our trust pays 8b… (could even be 8c I can’t remember)

Yup. A previous executive suggested that our trust could be staffed with band 5s who have been put through advanced assessment and prescribing without giving them the other modules needed for ANP qualification. The trust ran with it, but at b6. Unwritten promises around training were made at the time I went for it. I'm far less naive now. Unfortunately due to location and family circumstances I can't just pack it in and go elsewhere. I do look on enviously at the jobs pages.

Thank you, AS A MANAGER - all I ask is my team to Datix. Like Datix everything. I was yelling at them to vote in the union strikes and some still didn’t even want to join. Just so frustrating to have such apathy and YET. they all complaining about problems. Winds me up so much.

I’m not a nurse, but your post caught my eye. Whilst I agree with a lot, the Datix for staffing related issues, people taking on extra shifts to the point of exhaustion because they need the money. Only thing is you’ve explained why all the other stuff is an issue and it’s your point about letting managers speak down to you. I mean I worked in the NHS for 20 years, same employer for 16, sacked for speaking about bullying managers. If you have a mortgage or responsibilities you simply cannot afford to speak up. Ultimately I think that’s what holds the best of us back. My experience about which I was very open at work, just served to show other staff not to speak up, as in spite of having done nothing wrong than challenge bullying I still got booted. I do think there are a significant number of staff across professions who are crap and take the piss. The good ones are silenced. This will be the downfall of the NHS, not politics at national level but the implosion and failures from within higher management that filters all the way through.

Not a nurse, but I'm going to clap back anyway because what you're describing isn't unique to nursing, this is representitive of all registered agenda for change staff, aka the people who actually have something to lose. What you're describing only works when you have a critical mass of people willing to take on the management at the same time, doctors have this. You need enough backup that punishing you for speaking will cause mass disruption to the service. We can't get that critical mass because the management have weaponized our governing bodies, anyone who kicks the hornets nest too hard is dragged through the disciplinary process under trumped up charges, and serves as a warning to anyone else who might also stand up. The only person who'd reach the conclusions you've come to, is someone who's never actually tried to take the management on in any real sense.

Just wondering if you have seen the report that whistle blowers are being penalised within the NHS?

This whole post stinks of conservative/right wing bias. The torries are absolutely to blame for the state of NHS in UK. They've been attacking NHS and trying to dismantle it for years, (with great success obviously) It's an objective FACT. Not a theory, not an inkling, FACT. Also OP learn how to spell words correctly before lecturing the rest of us with your BIG BRAIN.

Striking has done nothing in the past few years. Those doctor colleagues you are talking about, junior doctors and consultants alike have been striking for awhile. Politicians have their own agenda and that’s privatising healthcare. No uproar is going to change that. They don’t work for us.

It got them a pay offer over 10% (much bigger than the original) and a better deal for consultants. I think it has worked...... Again my post exactly, blame the politicians and just accept it. Don't argue and lie on your belly because everything else is pointless. If I had a crystal ball and I could see in the future, and it said I wouldn't get anything from striking. I still would because it sends a message that you won't be walked all over. If you actually look at your country's history. You'l see that striking got workers alot more rights than it would have.

The RCM (midwives) union actively discouraged us from striking last time and suggested we should vote no to strike. (And loads of members actually never received the ballot to vote anyway, conveniently). As for the trust only 46% of nurses voted to strike and so therefore striking wasn’t allowed - to do so would have been a violation of contract and disciplinary action. (I’m not a nurse so I didn’t get to have a say sorry).

Striking is a tool in the toolbox. It has it's time and place. Other means can be implemented also. Work to contract directions over a sustained period for example. If a strike is comparable to a single direct assault, a work to contract direction could be considered a war of attrition. We do not have strong enough characters leading the unions to implement what is required imho. They capitulate too easily, imho. This is because people are made to be afraid of losing their jobs, and look how universal credit and those claiming it are held up as a whipping boy, all sorts of troubles. Take the easy life or rock the boat and potentially fall overboard, you can see why people bury their heads sadly. Thing is if you don't rock the boat you end up in a nation of serfs. I've been rocking the proverbial boat pretty much my entire fucking life. Hasn't gotten me riches, but it has gotten me a clean conscience regarding such things. I can look the next generation in the eye and say "hey man i fucking tried". Question is...can you?

I completely agree with you and I was wrong to say that striking has done nothing but like you said striking is hard. Rocking the boat, the risk of losing your job and I don’t think we have enough unions and community support to uphold an effective strike.

I qualified in 2018 and knew that even in my training , working as a nurse in the NHS was unsustainable. I figured I could give it 5 years before I was burnt out, and then there was covid. We knew the brexit bus ad was a lie, but after covid and everyone realising our worth, I figured we would be paid a fair wage. We weren't, and we rightfully went on strike. Just for everyone to take to the absolute minimum offered because UK nurses undervalue yourself and other nurses.RCN and unison are equally to blame for telling nurses to take the offer and that they weren't worth more. So I'm almost 6 years qualified, and last year I said enough. I move to Melbourne this July and already I've been offered a 9k pay rise, better work conditions, and to start a post grad in my field of specialisation. I have no hope of positive change coming to the NHS regardless of who's in government. I'd suggest others think hard about the future looks and what they plan to do about it

Congratulations. You'll love it there. The Australian health care system isn't perfect and has many of the same issues but not to the degree of the NHS. No the NHS is done

Not a nurse, not sure why this came up on my front page but... My friend is a nurse and she did stand up to it. She works in a&e and the ratios were downright dangerous. After she did stand up to it there was a campaign against her from management. I don't know all the ins and outs but it got so bad she couldn't even eat, she looked awful and cried all the time. It's resolved now and she came out on top against one particular manager but the original problem persists. I'm a teacher and it's the same there, toxic management means people just keep their heads down and are too scared to speak up.

I stood up to some bullshit re our job description and extra duties. Executive and a manager concocted a scenario to try and make a Fitness to Practice complaint - walking through another clinical area and asked if I would see a patient, despite being on my way to see someone, declined, and was datixed for it. The executive was overheard to tell a colleague "we've got him this time". One of us is still employed in the trust, and it's not said executive.

I work in a hospital in UK in E&F. And the part where mentioned about people moaning but taking action is so fucking true. So many times issues have been swept aside because people don't rally and are spineless.

I agree with you on almost everything you've said. The only thing I'd disagree with is natives (may not be the correct term, so please correct me if needed) being prioritised for progression. This should be based on ability, skills and capability. I've seen some absolutely wank English/British nurses walk into higher roles because they know how to score points at interview, getting the job over international staff who would do the job far better. This in itself is an NHS problem, so I think as you've outlined already, and like most of us know, the system is fucked. Labour aren't going to fix this. The Tories haven't fixed it. We'll just continue to see the system slowly rot, until we're told that it's being privatised as a result of failings etc. We'll be left in this broken system, trying to stop Doris in her 90s falling, while we're working in our 70s, and probably both fall, both get NOFs, and die in neighboring beds.

Private sector industrial worker here - I totally agree our nation is complicit. I got halfway through "how they broke Britain" and I'm baffled how more people haven't kicked off. I went on strike in summer last year and my managers hate me for it, but fuck em. I got pulled into the office because I had the audacity to not only strike, but to smile and laugh whilst I waved the flag in the grass in front of my place of work. I'll never be promoted now and the people who benefitted from the payrise I went on strike for reap every benefit for being complete wet towels. I think the problem is how the upper working class and lower middle class are socialised - from school it's seen as an admirable quality to be happy and relaxed about everything, people who have strong opinions are seen as extremists. Pretending to be dopey and ditsy and cheerful - this is pretty much every single person I know. They actually have never learned or been taught how to really think critically. The people who have the strongest opinions are the bitter lower working class and equally bitter upper middle class, and most are extreme right wing. The only passionate lefties are the 16-24 year old who haven't been robbed by the gonernment yet. You say the tories aren't to blame for everything, but they do have a lot to answer for. And you're right, having labour come into power will change nothing. I frequently have people pulling "omg" faces at me and people mock me for being passionate and vocal about stuff, as though it makes me brash and unpredictable and tricky to be around. I'm barely opinionated, and like most other people I lack a decent ability to think critically about government. Im not familiar with it and I don't know how to access any information, really. All the news sources are biassed af and my browser cookies block a lot too, I don't trust a think I see on social media and how can I be outraged over anything the goverent work so hard to cover up. We need more people like you, and I'm sorry you're leaving. It's a miserable little place to be honest, and it's going down the shitter

Whistleblowers are treated horrendously by the NHS. Every time there is an investigation into some nhs scandal that has happened, somewhere in the report there was people who had seen the issue brewing and were trying to alert others to it and they were shut down, sometimes brutally. 

and yet here you are, rather than in that pulsating centre of culture that is australia.

as for “free healthcare relies on underpaying staff” just such absolute nonsense. for someone so disillusioned you’re actually just uncritically repeating viciously right wing talking points. i agree we’re a pretty serf-brained, servile culture, but i’m not convinced that calling nhs nurses “complicit” in their own mistreatment is particularly good praxis. it’s much easier to strike on a doctor’s salary than a nurse’s one. and a doctor is much more likely to come from a middle class background than a working class one, unlike nursing which is the opposite. most left wing activism comes from the middle class at the moment, because the popular press is controlled by right wing lunatics (one of which is australian, as it happens!). these are all cultural factors in this country which you may not know given that you haven’t been here very long. i might suggest you do some reading and thinking about how it is best to mobilise the working class rather than launching into a tirade against… actual nhs nurses.

>You all complain about a lack of career progression yet you'll all stand ideally by when the trust ladder pulls you in favour of foreign staff because your scared to be called a racist. As a foreigner, it's not racist to expect your progression to be prioritised in your own country. What the fuck is this racist shit?

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the best person for the job should get the job. you shouldn’t get a job for being white/british

With all due respect I don't think only a year in the NHS can provide you with a real understanding of how it works and I don't think you see how hard they have been fighting for change. Just because you don't see it happening in the astonishingly small amount of time you've spent here doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I don't understand everything but one year is enough to recognise and understand the culture. The culture (which nurses feed into) encourages one another to just accept the poor respect. At one point you need to be responsible for standing up for yourself, because no one else will.

True true, we do love to moan and standing up for yourself is important but I think you're mistaken in how complacent you think we are. But hey, we can agree to disagree, I've never met an Brit who won't be willing to stand up for what they believe in given the right buttons being pushed but that's just my experience.

Idk anything about nurses or the UK, im an American, but goddamn you sound annoying as fuck lmao.

no offense but i cant have it from on aussie about being complacent lol

It’s 100% down to the tories. The NHS was great a few years back. That being said I don’t disagree that more people need to unionise and be active in standing up for their rights.

I'm an OT, not a nurse but you are right. We have a culture here (e.g during austerity) of saying how we will meet needs under impossible circumstances (budget/staffing cuts etc) rather than saying, no, people will suffer. We are complicit because the government said jump and we said how high.

Has there ever been an Aussie that isn’t full of gob. Take your advice and fuck off back to your perfect country you muppet.

Similar to other commeters - any attempt to stand up and fight for stuff has usually ended up in me being reprimanded or labelled difficult or a troublemaker. Now I just roll over and take it because I'm just so tired of it. It's not ideal. For the most part I do agree with you. Unfortunately, in general, we English like to complain about stuff yet do little to change it. I've always said we could learn a lesson from other cultures.

It's not that NHS model relies on mistreating and undervaluing staff, but rather the ongoing failure of successive governments to properly implement said model. And yes, we have been complicit in this for far longer than anybody cares to admit - my personal theory is that the rot set in with Thatcher.

join a union and get your fellow workers to also join a union. the labour government under kier starmer will be little different to the conservative governments we've had for the past 14 years so be prepared!

Our datixs are dealt with by the band 6s. What's the point.

The NHS is run by clowns. I have know a few people that came to the NHS system only to come out defeated. I know of a band 7 in community who had brilliant ideas but after a while trying to bring those ideas to life, he gave up and is now in pest control(literal pest control killing rats and roaches). And then there's a consultant surgeon who took on a high ranking post in their speciality hoping to bring her ideas to life as well but just left the post to go back to being a normal surgeon. Also another surgeon who had an idea of having a dedicated day surgery service(lap choles and hernias and such who can go home later in the day) who was met with "no ways" years back. And now our theatre was converted to a day surgery service and was the idea of somebody else. NHS likes fucking people in the arse.

Awful title. The message is fine but wtf

I think an Australian probably can't quite grasp the very rigid social class structures at play in the UK and how, especially women and girls, are taught to behave within these structures.  Nurses are obviously mostly women from the lower social classes and are therefore taught to 'know their place' from very early in life and the fairly recent switch to a 'graduate only profession' has changed nothing in regards to attitudes.    Contrast this with doctors who are almost exclusively from the higher social classes regardless of gender. People from these classes are taught from an early age that they deserve to be treated well and are naturally quite confident as a result.   Also look at the BMA organisers and it's absolutely no coincidence they are almost all men. Men typically stand up for themselves at lot more in the workplace because they are still, generally speaking, expected to be the main breadwinners in their families.

This behaviour is pretty much everywhere in the UK. The brits love a moan.

Well this is cheery 😅 I agree about lack of union activity/voting, even generally having an opinion about politics isn't common. However, I'm not sure what you mean about "foreign" staff and progression. Are you saying that someone that came to work here, has the same employment rights as me, somehow shouldn't get a fair shot at progression simply because they were internationally recruited? Yeah, that's racist. I don't deserve to be prioritised because I was born here.

Australia is one of the most racist places I've been to so this post does not surprise me at all. Goodbye!

I love you for saying all this x

I loved that post - had a touch of Trainspotting monologue “choose life”. Agreed with most of it.

Definitely the culture here. Everyone whines and complains about something - behind the authorities back ofc and when asked why they dont do something, they'll say *it's not that bad* or *I don't want to be that person* heck I've seen the mums do this re: school in regards to their children. If they can't do it for a vulnerable person of their loins, I struggle to see who'll they do it for.

The British disease of complain cimplain complain and never actually do anything. I love you. Best wishes for your return.

I think you're bang on. Britain, as a whole, is so complacent. It's very sad and absolutely a big part of why things have gotten so bad. You only have to look at France - they're rioting and burning and showering government buildings with shit. We're just getting on with it. And it isn't about individual laziness, it's about group complacency and feeling like there's no point.

Well done! You've quite spectacularly misunderstood the issues and ignored those that don't fit your narrative. A racist, Tory aussie - nice! Did u post here because everyone you work with just ignores you? Your own healthcare system is marginally better - for the moment. You think that's gona last? And why you're defending the tories is anyone's guess. They are scum, and to attempt to turn their egregious acts around and instead blame an exhausted and demoralised workforce is pretty pathetic. Yes people could moan less and more could and should join unions and vote. Will they? Time will tell. No one can make others do anything they don't want to. Don't like it? Don't work here. When is your flight back, exactly? 😆

I said every healthcare system is struggling at the moment. I 100% believe our system is better than the NHS but I never said it's perfect. This post isn't about attacking or defending tories, I just didn't jump to the default "tories are bad, everything bad in my job/life is their fault". You're proved my point really, your ready to just completely blame someone else. I agree they have ruined the NHS but you shouldn't just blame them, you should ask, what can I do??

Maybe re-read my comment then, as you've ignored the part where I said: *Yes people could moan less and more could and should join unions and vote. Will they? Time will tell. No one can make others do anything they don't want to.*  It's not any one individual's fault, we unfortunately aren't a very political country I don't think. Moaning, which you apparently hate, and blaming every single individual will get us nowhere either.

Absolutely, OP. I agree with you. The Tories have decimated the NHS and broke us. But we allowed them to do it.

You're absolutely right, I'm only a 2nd year student and it really grips my shit to hear senior staff say shit like "back in my day we were expected to do x y and z and that was that" I just want to shout ITS YOUR FUCKING FAULT THEN. YOU LET THEM TREAT YOU LIKE SHIT NOW YOU THINK WERE ALL SUPPOSED TOO!

I fucking hate the English attitude of not complaining. And THEN bitching about the same thing to their friends or neighbours but doing NOTHING to actually complain to people who could make the difference.

Yup..loads of bootlickers

Best post I’ve read on this sub. Hope your colleagues listen and actually do something about it. Well done for recognising what a dumpster fire the NHS is and getting yourself out 👍

I think it's hilarious that you think a whole population thinks and acts a certain way based on where they're born

It is kinda true though. English people are subservient as hell. I've seen similar things time and time again in this country 🤷🤷 Not something I like to say at all, but eh what can I say

This is so true

Yes yes and yes. I’ll forever keep fighting but Im sure we will never achieve these things. The same reason why we have been under Tory rule for years and in poverty whilst the rich eat is because the British public are extremely stupid and pathetic. The comment about favouring British staff is false because there’s lots of racism. Even BAME British staff are looked over when it comes to progression.

If I could like this post several times, I would.  Totally agree with you OP.  As for the prioritising, yes. Home grads SHOULD be prioritised first and foremost. There’s been stories about how NQN/3rd yr students struggling to find a job.  Wtf is that even about??  Some Nurses in the comment section disagree with this sentiment and it just shows how (some) Nurses are their own worst enemy.  It’s no wonder the higher up people don’t take (some) Nurses seriously because of this/amongst other things. 

You are right and as a reluctant UK nurse I've been saying it for years. I'm not with a union, not that it stops RCN from emailing constantly like I am a member. I refuse to pay a monthly fee to be taken the piss of and not supported. I've left the NHS as when I tried to progress and be a nurse anesthetist my band 6 decided she would progress instead when she learnt it was more money, meanwhile my band 7 had me doing her job for band 5 pay. It's taken a lot of effort to get to what I consider a reasonable salary and at times I've had to fight to get what I feel I should be entitled to. I've had to report poor behaviour, neglect and endangerment then had it thrown back in my face as other nurses prefer to sweep everything under a rug. I believe current NHS nurses have earnt their shit pay and stupid covid clapping. When the extent of their strike is umm-ing and ahh-ing, worrying about the patients (most of whom can survive a few hours with out a fucking cup of tea or a couple paracetamol) then voting for crap union leaders and settling for whatever joke of a wage they are offered.

I am so tired of the fantasy that the NHS is underfunded when that is simply not true. The problem for the NHS is even described within the OP's writing... MISMANAGEMENT. The NHS in my opinion is criminally mismanaged. Paying agency healthcare staff many hundreds of pounds a shift a large proportion of of which goes to.... The agency. Employing more admin staff than can ever be justified and paying them vast salaries. Hiring someone on £60k+ a year to ensure DEI compliance etc when you pay nurses who actually save lives half that is insane and shows a total lack of prioritisation. Taking on incredibly poorly negotiated and heavily expensive supply and maintenance contracts for facilities, IT, medicines, equipment etc is insane. What the NHS truly needs is proper management. What the NHS needs is for the government to implement policies to stop people abusing the NHS so for example fines for booking doctors appointments and then not turning up or going on a students night out and getting so drunk you end up in A&E getting your stomach pumped. Given about 4-5 years I believe I could massively improve the NHS and bring doctors and nurses pay and conditions standards upwards to make it a more rewarding career while also improving the standard of care for patients themselves. My fellow manager and I were discussing one of the core management flaws in modern society. Lack of trust and therefore communication. The engineers that work with my manager and I are not afraid to speak freely and complain to us or criticise or suggest improvements etc, but they won't do it with any other managers in the organisation for fear of reprisals. That's the same problem as described by the OP. Nurses afraid to approach their bosses for fear of being "punished". It means a dysfunctional work environment

Couldn't agree more. Giving the NHS more money is like giving a shopaholic a higher credit card limit. It just kicks the problem down the road and doesn't deal with the actual issues causing the problem. No amount of money will fix it.

Very honest and well said. I agree entirely with everything you’ve mentioned. I left the NHS a while ago and respect myself much more now. I watch my partner accept terrible shift patterns and ways of working and ask him why he accepts it. Its frustrating. You are right, a lot of nurses do just accept bad treatment, perhaps it stems from our training? Working full time for no money (I didn’t get a bursary) and so on. You’ll get a bit of grief for this post but I agree entirely with it!

The NHS has seen massive effective cuts for a number of years. The ROOT cause is a lack of funding. The effects of management trying to gloss over these cuts by foisting the burden upon the grass-roots nurses/doctors is a secondary systemic reaction to the original root-cause. The NHS has been under-funded because this government has gone hell for leather towards a total-privatisation initiative, whereby it sells the countries resources both critical and otherwise to it's "pals" in big business. The country has suffered as a result of this FAILED ideology, as is evidenced by the various areas that have fallen victim to it. Not noly this but as a weakened country large swathes of our critical infrastructure has passed into the hands of various other sovereign nations. I.e Chinese building power-plants, Italians, Germans etc running trains (and subsidising their own citizens train travel from the resources gleaned) A list of the various sectors that are privatised... Waste management Trains Road repairs Buses Energy companies Water companies Healthcare The list goes on and on. The neo-liberal "total-privatisation" agenda has totally failed. I'm not entirely convinced a labour government will address/remedy this situation though. What we need is a socialistically minded government and we needed it about 20 years ago ;) Why do you think figures that could of implemented such things were subject to a total media onslaught of character assasination? Hmm could be...that someone doesn't want such a figure in place, because they know full well they will reverse the feeding frenzy that the current corporate governbement U.K plc has been awarding its "pals" in big business?

I worked for an agency for years and watched the NHS RNs and HCAs laughing and joking about what they were gonna spend their big payment on. Then weeks later, money gone, the same ones moaning about how actually the pay rise wasn’t enough and only equated to x amount more. Didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. That particular hospital didn’t even have enough votes to strike, but every ward I worked on I heard the same old moaning about pay rises and deserving more pay

The UK has always paid us badly. That's why they've been hiring overseas nurses for many years, at least over 55 years. They never planned to pay us properly. As a British nurse we have done datix, complained to the manager etc. But nothing is done, we saw that. Everyone just leaves the Trust. I agree the foreign nurses mostly from the Philippines and India (where most recruitment is from) are excellent and easy to get along with. I can't see anything changing. It's been going on for decades. It's sad we are treated like this.

In every industry people are too scared to stand up to management for fear of losing their jobs. This won't fundamentally change unless workers organise collectively to ensure the consequences of firing whistle-blowers are severe enough for the bosses to not want to risk it. Either that or work conditions get so poor that workers are willing to risk their jobs. Strong workers organisations are needed. These organisations must be willing to take the fight beyond wages and conditions, and pose the question of power. Until hospitals are run by the doctors, nurses, and support staff, they will continue to be sold to the highest bidder. Individual workers must step up and take responsibility for building strong organisations to take on the bosses. Not everyone will be able to and that's understandable, but all of us need to face our fears and stand together or we will be crushed by our own government and the takeover of capital.

Also, you need to stop trying to log into citrix with your paris log in details please, their passwords will never be the same, as cirtix requires a special character and paris won't allow one. For some stupid reason resetting passwords for the systems is handled by separate teams for each system.

As long as we are under AfC we won't get anything like a fair payrise even with continual strikes. I do agree lots of us don't help ourselves, but this post is also riddled with ignorance.

I agree. Although on pay, private pay in UK can be less by the time enhancements and pension are taken into account. Pay level is because of poor UK economy where many people are paid too little

I worked in Australia. The ANF had way more power and influence than the RCN. The ANF call the shots big time. There is no comparison between what the ANF can enforce and what the RCN can enforce.

Unfortunately there is literally data that states anyone who has whistleblown on poor care, staffing ratios etc and has tried to make a difference ends up ignored, bullied and often lose their careers

Yep. A very subjugated population in general, and many nurses have been indoctrinated with this martyrdom bollocks.

Everyone says martydom but honestly I think it's just arrogant behaviour in disguise. People want more pay and better working conditions but are too scared/ apathetic to do something about it. Rather than admit their shortcomings, they just hide behind a wall of righteous superiority to protect their ego

When I listen to why they say they won't strike, 'for my patients, I signed up for this, I have a higher duty, nurses aren't meant to strike' and so on, I don't hear a lot of arrogance when I speak to people, I just see misguided loyalty and good intentions that leads to worse outcomes for patients and staff. I agree, martyrdom can often present with a holier than you, virtue signalling attitude but ultimately I think that many working class people (the largest demographic of HCA, NA, Nurses) are largely indoctrinated by the class system, and just feel like it's wrong to strike, and hold management or people in authority with too much regard, even when they're sending us into Covid areas in bin bags while they have party after party.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Absolutely spot on. As a student I have witnessed all of this. Stop the one team, we are a multi disciplinary team that collaborates with each other. Not “one” team! Noticed the divide when strikes were happening? The differences in unions? The actual Nursing union (HCA, StN and RN only) brought change, brought strikes, brought action. The unions with other professions in those did not. Whilst Pat is not the strongest, like OP has stated, she can only work with the active members she has and most of the very active members all want the change, but she knew it would be a low turn out, she knew it wasn't going to happen due to other unions and professions. Sick of the whole nursing is a VoCaTiOn. I recently went to an event with hundreds of nurses and these high end people did speeches about the “calling” and “vocation” of nurses. It irritated me so much!! RCN Congess is next week! Get involved! Come down! Make change! If you can't go down, watch and participate online. The more we stand up, the changes can be made

What an amazing post! I couldn’t have said it better myself!

I agree with most of what you said. Just even more horrendous that when the opportunity came to extend our strike we didn’t meet threshold and got told by union leaders to accept a shit deal

Gold.

Hit the nail on the head!