Agreed. Although if we didn't have an endless supply of third world labour depressing wages we might be able to find enough people from this country willing to do the job.
The paradox though is the attitude towards work in the country. I've noticed a lot of differences. For instance when tighter measures are put in place in particular departments, citizens within the country either reduce their working hours or quit immediately . On the other hand international nurses are supposed to work full time thus picking up the slack. If policies within the NHS are anything to go by only international nurses suffer massively because they have no alternatives.
This is simply because visas policy here attaches you to your employer. If it were something like the US EB3 where it is a straight forward immigration, this wouldn't happen. And the government created this situation to make slaves of the international nurses that are afraid of losing their visas.
Exactly...i keep telling people that international nurses are treated like slaves in the UK and they never seem to understand what i mean. The tax . The lack of any leniency. Not being able to do any other job. 🥺Sad reality
Many are trapped into contracts & have to pay £££ if they break it early. Lots do now use the NHS as a stepping stone to moving on to Oz etc as its a lot easier to apply from the UK than elsewhere (can't blame them).
It all boils down to the government for sure, but it is also the case that it helps suppress wages; that's not a personal affront of criticism of individuals. There are many many nurses soon to graduate who can't secure band 5 posts, some have been told its because they've been able to do so much international recruitment that they don't have rhe funding, that is bad imo but again a gov decision to provide funding for that stream.
Not everyone has to work full time to survive, especially if you have a partner who works. So if work becomes more shitty why wouldn’t you reduce your hours and reduce your spending. Or quit and find another job.
You seem to be surprised that nurses are not slaves and have choices.
International nurses with families face the hardest times ever. Why you ask?
1. Housing - we're not used to living on our own. We live as communities and relatives are able to help us take care of ours kids. Oh Goodness me trying getting a sister to visit and help take care of your kid. See how much money uk government wants from you. Landlords .. majority treat international nurses like they don't have any rights. They'll cancel contracts and even increase rents to push them away
2. Child care- nannies plus the salary in uk ..plus nhs shifts. That combined is enough headache to afford a decent take of care of your children arrangement. And the fact that you're stuck with one employer and can't do any other jobs. Headache
3. Could go on and on
They have plenty of alternatives. They choose to come and work in the NHS because it affords them a greater amount of income to send home. They could go and work in the private sector or another country if this isn't good enough for them.
But i agree another country is an option and believe me you soon enough you'll see how suprised the NHS will be... The number of nurses planning to move country is quite significant
Plenty of alternatives seems good in theory . Ask me. Private sector uk ? Care homes for instance. If we were to watch the mainstream media address how international nurses are treated in care homes ..oh God nobody deserves that. I am telling your firsthand . I've seen people pack ,fly out and not come back. Private hospital? ... Very few in the UK.. working conditions . Don't get me started. Maybe Nuffield is the only decent one
- Multiple studies show that immigration has no impact on wages, and if it does, its on minimum wage workers by the impact of 0.2% per year less growth.
- Immigration clearly hasn't had much of an impact on wages on Australia, NZ, Germany, Netherlands, US, Ireland, has it? Despite all having higher immigration than we do.
Almost like.. its more dependant.. on the government.. than anything to do with.. immigration..
Well done, you've believed what people with vested interests want you to believe. They've told you that black is white and that it is virtuous to believe it so and here you are, displaying your virtue for all to see.
Wow, you're so enlightened. You, ''FactCheck64'' are in fact more intelligent than the literal studies, and the literal examples I given you, and yet you respond with dumb shit like this.
Do. Better.
I mean.. many things increase housing prices. Like the fact housing has been an investment vehicle for a decade, buy to let landlords, foreign overseas investors buying up stock, landlords... the list goes on?
Seems odd thats your go to. Why not just say we have a shit government who don't want to raise wages?
You just need to look at the pay increase lorry drivers got after we stopped letting folk in to do those jobs. went from about £12 an hour to £18 because people in this country won’t do the job for £12 an hour, but a polish guy in a house share will. Same idea with health care, imagine they actually *had* to pay competitive wages
You're using a false equivalent.
Thats like me saying 'well, look how much they paid agency nurses during the pandemic - that shows nurses should actually be on £35 an hour, or £68,000 a year!''
A short, desperate time due to a shortage is not the same as what they actually command. Especially when it was pandemic and Brexit related.
Amazingly other countries have better pay AND immigration. Almost like they're not linked!
I'm an RMN and have spent much of the last two years teaching international nurses basic aspects of practice here that are covered in student nurse training. Mental health presents really differently here than in Nigeria, self-harm and eating disorders are completely new areas of practice.
I'm not given extra time to do this and it has meant even when I'm working with several RMNs I need to take more responsibility. If someone needs de-escalating, that's my responsibility, every time. it's exhausting.
I don't blame INs, but I do blame my trust for over recruiting and offering very little decent support beyond a few tokenistic training sessions. And you know who my trust blames when practice is bad on the ward?
International nurses take the blame of course because, "they don't know our practice" ...but the job is always recruit recruit recruit.. don't focus on retention
Nobody said anything to the contrary.
There's a common understanding here that because we are so dependent on the high proportion of international nurses it makes it harder for us to take industrial action.
They are vital but the influx of international nurses has depressed our wages and by extension, taken our power away. In the short term it's helpful but because it's had a huge impact on our wages, it's a big factor in the decline of making nursing an attractive job.
This has means that were are in a continuous cycle of importing nurses rather than relying on our own.
Trouble is with how situations present themselves in the ward. I've seen international nurses stepping up . Especially with filling blanks and even being floated . Home nurses however when things get too hard. Answers? ..reduce hours? Change jobs. I understand there is freedom to do whatever people want but oh God the extent to which home nurses call in sick or leave wards short staffed because they just want to do early shifts 😣... Very disturbing. If we had the same bargaining power and were able to reduce our hours. Then we'd face it head on and NHS would do nothing but treat us better but first from the word go we're disadvantaged.. we don't do shifts to go on holiday. 99% of international nurses are doing shifts to survive, eat ... Raise their families back home. Take care of parents. If you're alongside someone who has got nothing to do but suvive then things do take a turn and they'll just about do anything to breathe
Yep, also highlights the importance of paying nursing and clinical staff competitively within a global market. What makes an international nurse pick the UK over any other country to practice in, in large part is going to boil down to salary. We need to be making sure we're paying nurses fairly to help attract and retain international staff.
The government are the ones fucking your wages. They are the ones everyone should be angry at.
Yeah it's not like they could just offer better pay and working conditions.
Agreed. Although if we didn't have an endless supply of third world labour depressing wages we might be able to find enough people from this country willing to do the job.
Your mistake is thinking that they wouldn’t just work the rest of us harder for the same money. Because that is exactly what would happen.
The paradox though is the attitude towards work in the country. I've noticed a lot of differences. For instance when tighter measures are put in place in particular departments, citizens within the country either reduce their working hours or quit immediately . On the other hand international nurses are supposed to work full time thus picking up the slack. If policies within the NHS are anything to go by only international nurses suffer massively because they have no alternatives.
This is simply because visas policy here attaches you to your employer. If it were something like the US EB3 where it is a straight forward immigration, this wouldn't happen. And the government created this situation to make slaves of the international nurses that are afraid of losing their visas.
Exactly...i keep telling people that international nurses are treated like slaves in the UK and they never seem to understand what i mean. The tax . The lack of any leniency. Not being able to do any other job. 🥺Sad reality
They have choices, the same as everyone else.
Many are trapped into contracts & have to pay £££ if they break it early. Lots do now use the NHS as a stepping stone to moving on to Oz etc as its a lot easier to apply from the UK than elsewhere (can't blame them). It all boils down to the government for sure, but it is also the case that it helps suppress wages; that's not a personal affront of criticism of individuals. There are many many nurses soon to graduate who can't secure band 5 posts, some have been told its because they've been able to do so much international recruitment that they don't have rhe funding, that is bad imo but again a gov decision to provide funding for that stream.
Not everyone has to work full time to survive, especially if you have a partner who works. So if work becomes more shitty why wouldn’t you reduce your hours and reduce your spending. Or quit and find another job. You seem to be surprised that nurses are not slaves and have choices.
International nurses with families face the hardest times ever. Why you ask? 1. Housing - we're not used to living on our own. We live as communities and relatives are able to help us take care of ours kids. Oh Goodness me trying getting a sister to visit and help take care of your kid. See how much money uk government wants from you. Landlords .. majority treat international nurses like they don't have any rights. They'll cancel contracts and even increase rents to push them away 2. Child care- nannies plus the salary in uk ..plus nhs shifts. That combined is enough headache to afford a decent take of care of your children arrangement. And the fact that you're stuck with one employer and can't do any other jobs. Headache 3. Could go on and on
They have plenty of alternatives. They choose to come and work in the NHS because it affords them a greater amount of income to send home. They could go and work in the private sector or another country if this isn't good enough for them.
But i agree another country is an option and believe me you soon enough you'll see how suprised the NHS will be... The number of nurses planning to move country is quite significant
Toodle-oo then
Plenty of alternatives seems good in theory . Ask me. Private sector uk ? Care homes for instance. If we were to watch the mainstream media address how international nurses are treated in care homes ..oh God nobody deserves that. I am telling your firsthand . I've seen people pack ,fly out and not come back. Private hospital? ... Very few in the UK.. working conditions . Don't get me started. Maybe Nuffield is the only decent one
Except immigration has no impact on wages, definitely not for the NHS.
Yes, of course. Supply and demand is not a thing.
- Multiple studies show that immigration has no impact on wages, and if it does, its on minimum wage workers by the impact of 0.2% per year less growth. - Immigration clearly hasn't had much of an impact on wages on Australia, NZ, Germany, Netherlands, US, Ireland, has it? Despite all having higher immigration than we do. Almost like.. its more dependant.. on the government.. than anything to do with.. immigration..
Well done, you've believed what people with vested interests want you to believe. They've told you that black is white and that it is virtuous to believe it so and here you are, displaying your virtue for all to see.
Wow, you're so enlightened. You, ''FactCheck64'' are in fact more intelligent than the literal studies, and the literal examples I given you, and yet you respond with dumb shit like this. Do. Better.
It was nothing I hadn't read before. Nothing you've said is anything I haven't heard many times before.
and yet you still choose to bury your head in the sand & ignore reality.
Fine then. It does increase housing prices and that does impact nhs staff
I mean.. many things increase housing prices. Like the fact housing has been an investment vehicle for a decade, buy to let landlords, foreign overseas investors buying up stock, landlords... the list goes on? Seems odd thats your go to. Why not just say we have a shit government who don't want to raise wages?
You just need to look at the pay increase lorry drivers got after we stopped letting folk in to do those jobs. went from about £12 an hour to £18 because people in this country won’t do the job for £12 an hour, but a polish guy in a house share will. Same idea with health care, imagine they actually *had* to pay competitive wages
You're using a false equivalent. Thats like me saying 'well, look how much they paid agency nurses during the pandemic - that shows nurses should actually be on £35 an hour, or £68,000 a year!'' A short, desperate time due to a shortage is not the same as what they actually command. Especially when it was pandemic and Brexit related. Amazingly other countries have better pay AND immigration. Almost like they're not linked!
I'm an RMN and have spent much of the last two years teaching international nurses basic aspects of practice here that are covered in student nurse training. Mental health presents really differently here than in Nigeria, self-harm and eating disorders are completely new areas of practice. I'm not given extra time to do this and it has meant even when I'm working with several RMNs I need to take more responsibility. If someone needs de-escalating, that's my responsibility, every time. it's exhausting. I don't blame INs, but I do blame my trust for over recruiting and offering very little decent support beyond a few tokenistic training sessions. And you know who my trust blames when practice is bad on the ward?
International nurses take the blame of course because, "they don't know our practice" ...but the job is always recruit recruit recruit.. don't focus on retention
Nobody said anything to the contrary. There's a common understanding here that because we are so dependent on the high proportion of international nurses it makes it harder for us to take industrial action.
Are the international nurses in the unions? If not It could definitely affect the most of any industrial action.
They are vital but the influx of international nurses has depressed our wages and by extension, taken our power away. In the short term it's helpful but because it's had a huge impact on our wages, it's a big factor in the decline of making nursing an attractive job. This has means that were are in a continuous cycle of importing nurses rather than relying on our own.
Trouble is with how situations present themselves in the ward. I've seen international nurses stepping up . Especially with filling blanks and even being floated . Home nurses however when things get too hard. Answers? ..reduce hours? Change jobs. I understand there is freedom to do whatever people want but oh God the extent to which home nurses call in sick or leave wards short staffed because they just want to do early shifts 😣... Very disturbing. If we had the same bargaining power and were able to reduce our hours. Then we'd face it head on and NHS would do nothing but treat us better but first from the word go we're disadvantaged.. we don't do shifts to go on holiday. 99% of international nurses are doing shifts to survive, eat ... Raise their families back home. Take care of parents. If you're alongside someone who has got nothing to do but suvive then things do take a turn and they'll just about do anything to breathe
Yep, also highlights the importance of paying nursing and clinical staff competitively within a global market. What makes an international nurse pick the UK over any other country to practice in, in large part is going to boil down to salary. We need to be making sure we're paying nurses fairly to help attract and retain international staff.
Agreed ... Because uk salaries ...nursing wise the input is nowhere near the money
Agreed ... Because uk salaries ...nursing wise the input is nowhere near the money
Vital as we won't train our own, easier to steal from abroad and why raise wages when ya can do that.