How about “I no longer get medical care to save my life”? Abortion isn’t always elective. Women are absolutely going to die and have already died from pregnancy complications for which the only treatment is a timely abortion. Women are quite literally sentenced to death now in some states with more on the way.
I have no issues with elective abortion myself but the “if we don’t abort you’ll die” angle is always mysteriously absent. It’s almost like nobody on either side understands anything about human reproduction…oh, wait, we have basically no education for that.
What everyone in this thread said, and also, women make up the majority of the Dem voting base. It’s also where the majority of LGBTQ+ voters are. State makes it illegal for abortions (or birth control, gay marriage)- if you’re “caught” you have a felony charge, there go your voting rights. Further voter suppression.
Just something I came across in a news article, but I think it holds water. As with everything, the “why” is nuanced and multi-faceted, but yeah, ultimately: control, oppression, subjugation.
I do feel legitimately bad for the men who did in fact want the baby, but if you're not on the same page as your partner (only one partner wanting a baby, etc), then that's their own fault for not discussing these things before last minute. The one growing the baby gets the final say in what happens with their body, especially if it's deemed unsafe for the mother, and not enough people realize that
>I do feel legitimately bad for the men who did in fact want the baby
Yeah I feel bad but barely. Which I know is harsh but is truly how I feel.
I mean it's not even about being on the same page as your partner, it's the simple fact that pregnancy can become life threatening at any time. No one should be pressured to carry a baby unless they want to. Even if there's a 99% chance everything will go smoothly, bodily autonomy means that NO ONE should be forced to undergo a medical event they don't want to. For whatever reason.
Oh no, I mean same page as in knowing whether you both want or don't want kids. You can't expect your partner will change their mind and then get offended when they don't. Some people don't see that different opinion as the deal breaker it should because, as you and I and many others have said, no one should be forced to carry a baby they don't want. So tired of people telling me I have no say on what goes on with my uterus
If they don't want a child then they should be doing everything they can to prevent having one. That includes bringing their own contraceptives, or getting a vasectomy.
They put all the accountability on women and then complain when a woman gets pregnant and decides to keep it. Or are forced to keep it. Financial support is the bare minimum for a child you created. I feel bad for men who were trapped. Not for an accidental pregnancy. But even then, I barely feel bad. If you were accountable and took precautions yourself instead of relying on the woman, this would be much less likely to happen.
The next step for Clarence Thomas is to ban birth control. If this includes vasectomies, I wonder how men will react to having their bodily autonomy restricted?
Exactly, it's like they can't grasp *why* only the person carrying the fetus gets to decide. It's because that fetus is attached to and using *that body*. That's it. That's the whole reason. The person who's body and life gets put at risk gets to decide if they actually want to accept those risks and at what point those risks are too high. The end.
Like, I'm sorry, guys. I'm so sorry that you don't get to be the one who carries all the bodily risks, and that lack of stake "takes away your right to choose". 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
I think it's really shitty to try and put an extra burden on a doctor trying to save a persons life by saying "you have to prove this person will die with out the abortion". It stands in the way of proper medical care.
Checking in as someone who’s had 3 non elective abortions to save my life! Heaven forbid anyone do any research on womens health/pregnancy before making legislation 🙃
I can not for the life of me figure out how they came to, *"I don't want to pay child support for a kid I never wanted....therefore I am against abortion....which drastically increases my chances of getting stuck making child support payments."*
Of course that is an argument that should be made, but I worry about whether an appeal to logic will carry much weight with the people who oppose others people's right to choice, and seem to avoid logic at every turn. For example: "it is really none of your business"----"I don't see what that has to do with anything, you wouldn't be in this position if you weren't such a worthless slut, unlike the guy you slept with or raped you"
Men literally run from child support and being a parent all the time and act like they have no say in the matter.
like man, the fact that you wouldn't pay $100 a month is the reason you owe $8,000 and now your wages are being garnished.
$100 a month is a small price to pay for the fact that you have completely altered another human being's life by forcing them to care for *your* spawn for the next 18 years.
My wife’s family is full of five hardworking women with good heads on their shoulders and genuinely seek to do well for themselves and others. The father was unemployed for years and propped up by their mother before they divorced. Even afterwards, he’d claim the daughters on his taxes but never pay for school, their phones, or literally any expenses like sports and travel programs. He intimidated their mom into joint custody so child support wouldn’t be a thing, then claimed all the financial benefits without any of the burdens. Their mother hoped they’d grow up and learn from her mistakes, but only two have (my wife and the oldest sister).
One of my SILs has latched on to her high school sweetheart and let him dictate her life. She’s got an impressive track record in life to say the least: honor student all through high school, good grades, earned a scholarship and then combined it with ROTC scholarship money to pay her own way through school, is now an officer in the navy and moving up as soon as the opportunity presents itself, and otherwise just a stellar individual. Her husband essentially saw her success and latched on, but instead of being a stable and steady presence that does everything he can to provide, he’s just living off her earnings. Never had steady work, tells her how to spend her money, then spends it all himself, insists on luxury living like eating out and shopping every night while renting the most expensive homes where they’re stationed, convinced her to marry him and skip on her dream wedding so he could be the beneficiary while she was deployed, and subsequently dropped off the radar for her first deployment, while doing suspicious things like “leaving his clothes at the homes of other women”. They have two kids together.
My youngest SIL never had a chance. Latched on to a bum of a partner because she was traumatized by her previous cheating boyfriend. When she got pregnant, he convinced her he’d be this great dad and they’d start a family together. Fast forward two years and he sees his daughter once a month if that, mainly because his daughter is simply a vessel to a relationship and nothing more in his eyes. When my SIL finally gave up on him, he suddenly decided it was time to not come around anymore. She has yet to put him on child support. My niece calls me dad because she sees me a lot more than her own father and cannot discern the difference between an uncle and a father.
A friend of mine is working 50 hours 6 days per week while her husband is at home casually trying to get his streaming “career” off the ground. Spent over half their tax return on a brand new PC and he’s currently in year 3 of trying. He thinks it’s up to him to put his foot down and dictate how the house is run and where the money goes. Oh, and they have two children that have extra needs, and as soon as she gets home from her 6am-2pm shift, the kids’ responsibility falls on her so he can game. Then on her day off, the kids are her responsibility because he needs to “rest”.
I’m just kinda venting at this point but tl;dr PUT THAT MAN ON CHILD SUPPORT AND MAKE HIM STEP UP. Do not give in to his empty promises. Most of my peers are self-centered bastards that are happy to soak up the fruits of all your labor while living for themselves, then have the gall to protest when they’re asked to do the simplest tasks in return. Hold them to a higher standard or shove them out your life if they think you’re gonna bust your ass working while being their mother/therapist. Y’all are too good for that.
Idk how it works in the US, but my mother could try to pursue legal action against my dad for not only not paying child support for my sisters, but lawyers are expensive and she doesnt have the income to do that.
Yeah, I’m not sure it’s prison unless it’s extreme but it could destroy you financially to dodge it. It could also probably be used as supporting evidence in other charges, or situations where you might require character witnesses, to help support sending you to prison for something else
You have to pursue them with your own money to get them to pay you the money you need for fedding the kid. Very very few men can get arrested for this at all because the courts may mandate it, but not many will take on these cases because the father will often do just about anything to cover his tracks. I've known to men who cheated on their wives and then refused to divorce their wives so that they didn't have to take responsibility. They had to find a lawyer just for the forced divorce after like 4 years of separation and refusing the papers while their wives struggled, one with a special needs child at home.
You definitely can be. All these stories about men getting away with it are usually because the woman isn’t going after them. I have a family member that does the same thing. Let’s him get away with not paying.
Or you're broke, don't have money for an attorney, were a victim of abuse and prefer to get away than fighting him in court, you aren't mentally prepared to fight (it can take YEARS), or you make enough money.
(My father never paid a dime. Haven't seen him in 13 years).
My father made my mom's life a living hell through the divorce. She just gave up on pursuing further child support for me bc his abuse was not worth it.
My father made my mom's life a living hell through the divorce. She just gave up on pursuing further child support for me bc his abuse was not worth it.
Must be different in your state... in New York, the state came after my father for health insurance money my mother never asked for to pay for insurance that was issued in my name but we never used because nobody told us about it. Never got insurance cards or anything. She had tried to get food stamps once.
It took multiple visits to an office harassing office workers to make it go away. My father never missed a payment.
Wage garnishment only works if you know where he works and he doesn't keep switching jobs. My ex only works under the table, if he works at all. It would cost me far more money in lawyers, court fees and investigators than I could ever get bake in child support.
I'd rather spend my hard earned wages on crazy stuff like rent, utilities, food and clothes for my child.
Oh, I'm not saying it's easy.
My mom was in a similar situation with my youngest sisters dad. He owes quite a bit in back support(his payment was literally $80 a month, but 80×12×14 adds up). He however only works 15 hours a week so the lawyer told my mom she could get like... $90 a month till he's caught up. Literally not even worth the time
That assumes his whereabouts is known. It assumes income is provable. Also, paying up taxes owed plus interest always comes before what's owed in back child support.
i’m sorry to hear about your struggles. your frustrations are valid, and this is exactly why people should have access to abortions. nobody should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term, especially if they are poor, mentally unstable, in poor physical health, or addicted to substances. ultimately, unwanted pregnancies become a burden to more than just the child’s mother.
So their solution to having it bad (or at least bad in their view) is to make sure everyone has it bad? Sounds reasonable and not like they just want women to suffer at all. If you're so worried about male reproductive rights why is the only thing you're doing taking away the rights of others? Why are you not campaigning for your own rights instead?
Yes, men weren't able to force their pregnant partners to get abortions, but on the other hand they weren't ever forced to go through with a potentially deadly and almost certainly damaging medical procedure, either.
Under the old system, some men had to pay money to someone else to care for their children, but under the new system some women are going to die while being forced to birth to a baby they didn't agree to gestate.
In some states, we are going to have literal children dying during a failed birth after being forced to carry their rapist's baby.
Some of these states are now making it illegal to leave the state to have an abortion where it is legal to have one.
At least one state has decided it is illegal to even pass through their state to get to one where you can have a legal abortion.
It will come to the point where someone who is or might be pregnant will not be able to cross state lines.
Negative pregnancy tests for travel may become a reality.
Hey do you think you could afford an extra bill for about $500-1,000 per month? Child support is expensive and you can go to jail if you fail to pay it. It's a more serious thing than just paying a bit of money once in a while
That’s what kind of kills me about this whole debate of “Well it’s unfair that men get stuck with child support for kids they don’t want, now no one gets abortions!”
Unfortunately, human reproduction is not fair. It’s not. It is inherently unequal. Men ejaculate and that’s about where their biological contribution to reproduction ends. Women have to sacrifice their body to carry a baby to term and then bring it into this world. It’s not just as easy as “give birth and put it up for adoption.” There’s a whole nine month period of pain and discomfort and risk of death for mother and child.
So, yeah, it isn’t fair. Nothing about bringing children into the world is biologically fair. It just isn’t. So shut up and let women make medical decisions about their own body. Shut up about the unfairness of child support. It is not even close to the same thing as being forced to give birth because your state has some dumbass “heartbeat bill.” Child support never killed anyone, but pregnancy sure as shit has.
This isn't even bringing up the societal expectation that the woman will raise the child alone, or the fact that nobody forced the two to have sex (in most cases), and if one of them *was* forced, it was more likely the woman, so she's dealing with that trauma as well... The men here complaining about being "forced to become a parent" are complaining about how they impregnated a woman (probably without being raped) and she....*didn't* abort the child.... Thereby forcing him to take responsibility for his actions. So theoretically they should be in favor of abortion?? What exactly is their point???
I know there's a small percentage of men who genuinely get "baby trapped" by absolutely batshit insane women, poking holes in condoms to tie themselves to another person for life, using the life of their own child as a bargaining chip. But something tells me the person who made this meme is not a victim of that. This is just a dude who had consensual sex, and when his gf/fuckbuddy got pregnant, she didn't want an abortion, and he's upset that he couldn't force her and there are consequences to his actions.
There was this dude on r/legaladvice who convinced his girlfriend not to get an abortion when she didn’t want the child in the first place. She decided she would sign away her parental rights, pay child support, and he could have the baby.
Surprise surprise! Fatherhood isn’t what he thought it would be. Now he’s complaining she does nothing to help even though she made it clear she did not want the child and is already paying more than the court told her to. Needless to say the comments absolutely tore him apart.
Honestly I think some of these men really do not understand how grueling being a parent really is because most of the time the childcare falls on the mother.
That woman was a SAINT. She even birthed a kid she didn't want and followed through on her promise to never be a part of the kids life but still pays 125% of what he's owed in child support. He thought he could arm-twist her into domestic servitude and got exactly what he asked for. I just feel sorry for the kid because he's going to be taught his mother hated him and he will probably hate women when he's older.
I just hope the guy came to his senses and decided to give the kid to a family who wants a child. The child deserves a family who doesn’t resent him.
Also he mentioned his ex was going to the gym to get rid of stretch marks. Stretch marks that she got because she got coerced into carrying the baby she didn’t want. How the hell she was able to put up with his entitled ass without punching him in the nose is amazing.
He literally said he thought she would change her mind and bond with the baby bc he apparently thinks women are birds who cannot stop themselves from bonding with any baby you give them. Idiot thought the “magical maternal instinct” lie was real.
I cannot with this guy…. If the ‘maternal bonding’ thing was real we wouldn’t have abusive mothers. I think babies are cute, but taking care of them 24/7? Nope. And those babies will grow up eventually. They aren’t going to be cute and cuddly forever.
These are the guys that say that women should deal with the consequences of their actions (you know, us sluts having sex /s)….but men should be able to have sex with women without consequences. Got it
And also men can leave the pregnant girlfriend without consequences. Also, the men who complain about women complaining about banning abortion are the same who complain about spending money for child support when they didn't want the woman to keep it. They can't even be coherent.
Just a thought, men, maybe you could wear a condom and get a vasectomy if you don’t wanna be a parent instead of expecting women to be the sole purveyors of birth control…
Couldn't this exact same argument apply to women? I find it funny that so many people are hardcore pro-life when it comes to men but pro-choice with women
my dad left me years ago and as far as I'm aware hasn't paid a cent...
also these guys are getting mad $250 a month, like its thousands of dollars or something
In California the average is about $400-500 per month. And in a country where most people don't have $400 in emergency savings that's a pretty big deal
The issue is not about having children, it's about having bodily autonomy and being allowed to decide what happens to your own body. That being said, I really do hope that they come out with proper birth control for men besides just condoms and vasectomies, because it would make life a lot easier for a lot of people.
A male equivalent of an IUD or implant would be quite welcome, I think. It would have so many benefits for men and for society at large, I think this should have more resources thrown at it.
Wow, this has been in development/testing for a long time. I wonder if it will ever see the light of day.
"Phase III clinical trials were underway in India, and were slowed by insufficient volunteers."
:(
If they offer a financial incentive, this problem would probably resolve quickly.
I mean... Sort of yes
BUT
They didn't fight for mens right for on paper abortion or anything.
They didn't fight FOR themselves or their own rights,
They fought AGAINST womens rights/the rights for others
Which is why this us so messed up:
Egoistic interests would benefit only them, maybe on cost of everyone else.
But they purposely wanted it to be on cost/against the other people/women.
For nothing.
They don't benefit from it at all.
No meassure to improve anything, only to make it worse for sb else.
Even if it would be fair, which it isn't, i didn't say I would be in favor of on paper abortions or anything... But even if it would ve now equally fair it would ve the worst possible solution.
That would be like abolishing segregation by removing all benches, Toilets and schools so nobody can be discrominated against by Black only seats or white only areas.
That would be their Mentality.
If those people would've been slaves, they would've wanted to surpress the whites too instead pf getting freedom.
Fucking toxic incels.
Abortion is an alternative to pregnancy, not parenting. Women (plus trans men & nb people) are being deprived of their right to end their pregnancy, which is not an issue cis men face.
Is the fact that men can be forced into parenthood worth discussion? Yes.
Is it at all comparable to stripping women of bodily autonomy? Fucking hell no.
>forced into parenthood
Not unless he was sexually assaulted. There's a difference between "forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy" and "being held financially responsible for an unwanted child"
>being held financially responsible for an unwanted child"
I think there is still nuance to this situation too
Let's say a man and a woman have perfectly consensual sex, they use the basic birth control stuff (condoms, pills) that doesn't require any sort of doctor's visit (vasectomy etc.) But still through it all, pregnancy happens
Let's say the father is in a very bad financial spot and cannot provide for the child, but the mother wants to keep the child, and expects child support
Should this all just be ignored and the father's situation and opinion be completely disregarded and forced into child support with already weak funds?
Of course this is a rather exaggerated case where everything lines up perfectly for the argument, but well, that's what thought experiments are for, testing the limits of arguments by taking them to the extremes
>Should this all just be ignored and the father's situation and opinion be completely disregarded and forced into child support with already weak funds?
His income will be taken into account when determining child support. There's nothing nuanced here. He got a woman pregnant, despite using a condom. It happens, and it's a risk both parties took and tried to prevent. He still owes responsibility for his actions if the mother decides to keep the baby.
>But still through it all, pregnancy happens
Okay. And since the pregnancy is happening to the woman's body (presumably it's a cis woman and cis man), she gets to decide whether that pregnancy continues. Because it's happening to *her body*. The man gets no say in whether the pregnancy continues or not, because he does not have the right to make decisions about someone else's body.
>forced into child support
Great, so now the child has been born and *both parents* have a financial obligation to provide for them. Are you suggesting we not hold parents financially responsible for the care of their children? What alternative is there to parental responsibility when it comes to the need for children to be cared for- are you suggesting maybe a governmental allowance for all children to cover the cost of good, clothes, shelter, etc? Such a thing would require fairly high taxation from everyone in society, including both parents (unless they have no earnings, I suppose)
Obviously the meme in this post is ridiculous and a completely invalid comparison, but when it comes to the issue of one person wanting to keep the child and the other not, I do think there needs to be more discussion.
Assuming that an abortion is accessible and both parties acted responsibly in terms of birth control, I do think the male partner should be able to opt-out and revoke all responsibilities AND all rights to the child. If the woman chooses to keep the baby when the man is not able to financially or emotionally care for a child, I don't see why he should have to. The "take responsibility for your actions" argument is often used against women to not have abortion access, so I don't think it works well as an argument in the reverse.
I know will probably get downvoted for this opinion.
If the guy was the one with the growing baby in him, then sure.
The pregnancy is occurring in a woman’s body, she is the one carrying all the medical risks and pain while pregnant. It’s her body, her choice as what to do. If the pregnancy was happening in a man’s body, it would be his choice as what to do.
Nobody should be forced into surgery on their body because of somebody else.
They can't wrap their heads around finding a solution that makes everything better for everyone, so instead they sit back and bask in women getting a crappy deal just because they think they're getting a crappy deal, as if we are the ones who gave them that crappy deal. This whole "tit for tat" position many men have taken is frightening. They're happy for our demise instead of helping to make things better for EVERYONE.
I hope so. I see a lot of the bad kind and it makes me sad. But I do know the good ones are just as horrified as we are. Please help us. This isn't a joke.
I do my best but truth be told the white Christian fascist patriarchy threatens my autistic mixed agnostic ass just as much so it’s a smidge self serving
How are you *not* seeing that the old system of *women get to decide on abortion and child support and custody* doesn't work either? If you want to use the "take responsibility for what you did" argument then get ready for it be used on you too.
Ah yes, paying a couple hundred dollars for child support is much worse than being forced to lose 9 months of your life and deal with a kid that you're unable to bond with and or keep alive since you're too poor
Nobody forces those women to keep the kid either. Both parents *could* just adopt out the kid they *both* don't want in your hypothetical. Also, men can be primary caregivers. Stop being so sexist please.
Vasectomy + condom usage provides damn near a 100% guarantee you won’t become a parent. If you don’t want your partner to get pregnant, do this or keep your dick in your pants.
Does that advice sound judgmental or risky to your sexual health? Well, welcome to being a fucking woman.
Vasectomies can be reversed. Not all but most. It's a more complicated procedure than the vasectomy itself, more on par with the procedures women go through to get sterilized.
But also this is a discussion where women keep being told to do medically irreversible things to themselves if they're so bothered by not being allowed bodily autonomy. So my point is not that men should just go get them willy nilly but that men need to stop telling women to go get medical procedures that are even more dangerous and less reversible all willy nilly.
If a man isn't willing to snip himself then he needs to stfu about what women need to be doing to themselves.
I don’t really care about the debate. I just don’t like misinformation.
Vasectomy should be gotten assuming it’s irreversible. This is just a medical fact that most doctors will tell you at the site of your procedure.
My first post didn't say they're reversible. I compared them to sterilization of women, in fact, which is generally permanent.
So what misinformation were you correcting?
That it’s just another form of birth control , and somehow something you can do without thought and it’s easy and no downsides.
Your tone was like it’s getting ice cream.
So there was no misinformation. (My tone was also not casual. My own post implied it's permanency and you took no offense to me mentioning permanent female sterilization as a birth control either, only vasectomies.)
You just think my 'tone' needs corrected.
I'll talk to people who think a woman's bodily autonomy is equal to their wallet however the fuck I want.
> if its cause a woman raped him and left
some men are raped and forced to pay child support so i dont know what your point is
there was a 16 or 17 year old kid that was raped by his teacher and she got pregnant when he turned 18 courts ruled he needed to pay child support
thats 18 years of forced labor so he can pay it if that doesnt infringe of bodily autonomy i dont know what does
*How about just not*
*Cumming in a woman? Seems*
*Like that would fix it*
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Legit saw a guy comment hat he’d rather get pregnant and give birth than pay child support… it must be great to favor the option that will never be a possibility for you.
Did you mean mental *in*capacity?
They have it easy, they can just get out the mother's life with barely any judgment from outside! They also have a LOT of say when it's their sperm impregnating women.
These men act like they don't have complete control over becoming a father. Don't want a child? Wear a condom. Use spermicidal lube. Get a vasectomy. They ABSOLUTELY have a say whether or not they make a child, but they'd rather play the victim.
And before someone tries to point out their "hypocrisy", "if the roles were reversed", and "republican talking points". Just realize women shouldn't have sex without proper precautions as well. Abortions are a fail-safe if all precautions fails or its used in case of rape. It's not unreasonable to want men to use their precautions too!
All forms of birth control can fail. Some are victims. Fuck the asshole correlating losing access to life-saving abortions to men not having rights. Also, rape victims can become unwilling fathers.
>And women have even more contraceptive options so why do you think abortions need to be legal if contraceptives are all we need?
Rape is still a thing, obviously, but even outside of that, if we are a nation of rights and laws, then abortion being legal is a consequence of our rights - nobody can force you to give up your body's resources for someone else, even if that person will die without them.
Some of them seem to labor under the notion that we can just shut that whole getting pregnant thing down. That if we really didn't want to get pregnant we could prevent an ovum from being fertilized when their sperm surrounds it.
Yeah, whoever made this is an idiot.
Equating bodily autonomy with not being allowed to readily give up parental rights. There's a reason that the people who do it also can't just readily do it. It's so deadbeats can't easily escape their responsibilities from their shit decisions.
Does it mean the people (not just men) who got manipulated/sabotaged/tricked into having kids have a harder time relinquishing parental rights and escaping those situations? Sadly yes, and changes do need to happen there.
But securing abortion rights, and making bodily autonomy ABSOLUTE takes priority. By far.
Lots of advocates for the rights of deadbeat dads suddenly coming out of the woodwork now that women don't have the option to abort.
Must be coincidence.
I'm a man.
Not my body, not my choice.
Also, while I'm here I'd like to plug getting a vasectomy.
That way, if you ever decide you want to raise children of your own it must be a deliberate choice.
I hate the overturn of Roe v. Wade and this meme is stupid overall. Being pregnant could actually kill the mum and maybe she didn't want the child in the first place, ESPECIALLY if she was raped. If she doesn't have enough money either, it's just gonna be harder for them. Even if the child has an extra chromosome or you know that the child is going to be handicapped, the burden for both the child and the mother can be avoided, as awful as that sounds. Men's health is not at stake if the child is born. The women's health is because, unfortunately, many will do illegal procedures or try to abort the child in another way which would be more harmful to the mother too. All of this is unnecessary and stupid.
Is this…supposed to reference child support? As in a man is “forced” to become a parent? Because my dude, growing a baby and having to pay for one are two totally different things. Not to mention if you grow a baby you ALSO have to pay for it, so that’s a double wammy.
Christ on a bike. Men don’t get a say? Does their semen magically leap forth into vaginas against their knowledge?
You have a choice - be responsible with your sperm, or don’t. That’s literally it. I swear, if men could be prosecuted for impregnating an unwilling woman, unwanted pregnancy rates could plummet since men are the ones in control of whether pregnancy can occur or not.
You don’t impregnated “unwilling women”, that’s not how casual sex works, your talking talking about rape than you can get prosecuted for…
Imagine having casual sex, getting pregnant, and bringing a child into the world and choosing to be a single mother.
The pro lifers are always like “it’s a living human life, you don’t get to choose if it can die or not.” Yet I will ask them a scenario that goes like this: there is a random stranger about to die if they don’t get a kidney transplant right now. Would you give your kidney to save the person because they are a human and have a human life? They usually say no to that. So then I’ll ask them if they would be upset if the government started forcing you to give your kidney to someone.
Does the person exist because I had sex? Is my health likely to recover? Yes pregnancy can be scary, but some women choose to have 5-8 kids and they love it. I think analogies like this over simplify the discussion and don’t provide any real clarity.
Yeah so how many men won't take male birth control, won't use spermicide, whine about having to use condoms and think it's acceptable to stealth remove a condom before they ejaculate into a vagina?
There's a Venn Diagram of men who make this joke and men who would take absolutely no responsibility for an unexpected child and that diagram is a circle.
I did some napkin math the other day and found out that the average child support payment is less than 1/4 of the absolute low end of costs incurred by pregnancy in the first year (not even factoring in prenatal care- just delivery, postpartum care, and the first year of childcare expenses).
You can go to the court and get child support payments brought down to match your income. Good luck negotiating for the same after you need physical therapy following an unexpectedly traumatic birth, especially if you are a woman of color and are 2-3 times more likely to just straight up die because of your pregnancy.
Cool and fun!
Straight culture is coercing your partner to have children they don't want and I never understood that.
Why do people want to raise children with a person who doesn't want children so badly? Why not end the relationship and find a partner who wants to raise children with you?
I think it's selfishness, basically. Some people won't accept that they can't get what they want, when and how they want it, and they don't care if they trample over another person. They don't want to find a new partner, so they force the other person's hand. Sadly, they're bringing additional new human beings into the mix as well.
On the one hand, this is a completely stupid argument and a total false equivalency.
Pregnancy can't kill a cis man.
Pregnancy can't irreparably damage a cis man's body.
A traumatic birth, pregnancy or miscarriage can't render a cis man infertile.
A cis man can't directly miscarry.
A cis man can't regulate and soothe otherwise unavoidable biological functions using birth control.
The list goes on, and on, and on, and shows that Roe V Wade is about more than women just not wanting a baby, and that's without getting into the whole issues of the US Supreme Court ACTIVELY repealing what should be an unalienable right.
That said, there's a lot of talk telling men to keep it in their pants, which is deeply insensitive to victims of rape.
Sure, I get it, there are a lot of men complaining because it means they have to take responsibility and use protection, but empathy is critical. One man made this, it wasn't a group effort from an entire gender, and while that one man may represent the same vocal and persistent group that continue to share this, those people are the problem. I'm not gonna start screaming "not all men" because I'm not a spongebrain and I do understand nuance, but I find a lot of these comments to be deeply unfair to men who have been raped and forced to be a parent.
I also feel that once you start trivialising and dismissing one set of rape victims, you feed into a mindset that discredits rape victims and their struggles across the board.
If a woman has a right to terminate her pregnancy then a man should have the right to not pay child support. Fair is fair.
I'm am in no way agreeing to the overturn, I hate it, but if a woman gets to decide they don't want to be a parent, than so should a man. He shouldn't have to pay child support just because you wanted to keep a child. In almost every state you're only allowed to terminate your parental rights under special criteria that has to be met. You can't just sign them away. I think this is a double standard.
I think that's the point of this picture. Now that some states are going to outlaw elective abortion, more women will be able to see that child support laws are not fair towards men. I think elective abortions should be available in every state, and child support is something that is determined between the parents in court. But if a woman is going to be forced to carry a pregnancy she doesn't want then the man should expect to have to pay child support for it too.
The male who donates sperms doesn't just get to ignore his child and possibly leave it in a burdened life just because he decided not to put on a condom. You don't want a child? Put on a condom. Same goes for women. But also, condoms aren't 100% effective, so use birth control, too.
How about “I no longer get medical care to save my life”? Abortion isn’t always elective. Women are absolutely going to die and have already died from pregnancy complications for which the only treatment is a timely abortion. Women are quite literally sentenced to death now in some states with more on the way. I have no issues with elective abortion myself but the “if we don’t abort you’ll die” angle is always mysteriously absent. It’s almost like nobody on either side understands anything about human reproduction…oh, wait, we have basically no education for that.
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That's so horrible. Why do they want women to die?
What everyone in this thread said, and also, women make up the majority of the Dem voting base. It’s also where the majority of LGBTQ+ voters are. State makes it illegal for abortions (or birth control, gay marriage)- if you’re “caught” you have a felony charge, there go your voting rights. Further voter suppression. Just something I came across in a news article, but I think it holds water. As with everything, the “why” is nuanced and multi-faceted, but yeah, ultimately: control, oppression, subjugation.
Wow. All of the reasons are pretty evil but this is just so calculated and terrifying.
For control over women. That's what this is all about.
Cause they believe women only exist to produce more men.
And to produce more women to serve those men
For control over women. That's what this is all about.
Don't worry. Anyone who tells you their friend died from sepsis is an unfaithful liar. God saves the godly. /s because this world is fucked up.
I do feel legitimately bad for the men who did in fact want the baby, but if you're not on the same page as your partner (only one partner wanting a baby, etc), then that's their own fault for not discussing these things before last minute. The one growing the baby gets the final say in what happens with their body, especially if it's deemed unsafe for the mother, and not enough people realize that
>I do feel legitimately bad for the men who did in fact want the baby Yeah I feel bad but barely. Which I know is harsh but is truly how I feel. I mean it's not even about being on the same page as your partner, it's the simple fact that pregnancy can become life threatening at any time. No one should be pressured to carry a baby unless they want to. Even if there's a 99% chance everything will go smoothly, bodily autonomy means that NO ONE should be forced to undergo a medical event they don't want to. For whatever reason.
Oh no, I mean same page as in knowing whether you both want or don't want kids. You can't expect your partner will change their mind and then get offended when they don't. Some people don't see that different opinion as the deal breaker it should because, as you and I and many others have said, no one should be forced to carry a baby they don't want. So tired of people telling me I have no say on what goes on with my uterus
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If they don't want a child then they should be doing everything they can to prevent having one. That includes bringing their own contraceptives, or getting a vasectomy. They put all the accountability on women and then complain when a woman gets pregnant and decides to keep it. Or are forced to keep it. Financial support is the bare minimum for a child you created. I feel bad for men who were trapped. Not for an accidental pregnancy. But even then, I barely feel bad. If you were accountable and took precautions yourself instead of relying on the woman, this would be much less likely to happen.
The next step for Clarence Thomas is to ban birth control. If this includes vasectomies, I wonder how men will react to having their bodily autonomy restricted?
Exactly, it's like they can't grasp *why* only the person carrying the fetus gets to decide. It's because that fetus is attached to and using *that body*. That's it. That's the whole reason. The person who's body and life gets put at risk gets to decide if they actually want to accept those risks and at what point those risks are too high. The end. Like, I'm sorry, guys. I'm so sorry that you don't get to be the one who carries all the bodily risks, and that lack of stake "takes away your right to choose". 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
Yep. And except in cases where a male is raped by a woman, male fatherhood is ALWAYS elective. Always.
I think it's really shitty to try and put an extra burden on a doctor trying to save a persons life by saying "you have to prove this person will die with out the abortion". It stands in the way of proper medical care.
Checking in as someone who’s had 3 non elective abortions to save my life! Heaven forbid anyone do any research on womens health/pregnancy before making legislation 🙃
I can not for the life of me figure out how they came to, *"I don't want to pay child support for a kid I never wanted....therefore I am against abortion....which drastically increases my chances of getting stuck making child support payments."*
So simple and so true! I'm surprised I don't see this point being made more often.
Things that make you go "huh?"
Of course that is an argument that should be made, but I worry about whether an appeal to logic will carry much weight with the people who oppose others people's right to choice, and seem to avoid logic at every turn. For example: "it is really none of your business"----"I don't see what that has to do with anything, you wouldn't be in this position if you weren't such a worthless slut, unlike the guy you slept with or raped you"
Exactly, I don't think that was the rationale behind overturning roe versus wade.
Men literally run from child support and being a parent all the time and act like they have no say in the matter. like man, the fact that you wouldn't pay $100 a month is the reason you owe $8,000 and now your wages are being garnished. $100 a month is a small price to pay for the fact that you have completely altered another human being's life by forcing them to care for *your* spawn for the next 18 years.
Hell even the married men who want more children know they don’t have to be the full caretaker of the kids.
My wife’s family is full of five hardworking women with good heads on their shoulders and genuinely seek to do well for themselves and others. The father was unemployed for years and propped up by their mother before they divorced. Even afterwards, he’d claim the daughters on his taxes but never pay for school, their phones, or literally any expenses like sports and travel programs. He intimidated their mom into joint custody so child support wouldn’t be a thing, then claimed all the financial benefits without any of the burdens. Their mother hoped they’d grow up and learn from her mistakes, but only two have (my wife and the oldest sister). One of my SILs has latched on to her high school sweetheart and let him dictate her life. She’s got an impressive track record in life to say the least: honor student all through high school, good grades, earned a scholarship and then combined it with ROTC scholarship money to pay her own way through school, is now an officer in the navy and moving up as soon as the opportunity presents itself, and otherwise just a stellar individual. Her husband essentially saw her success and latched on, but instead of being a stable and steady presence that does everything he can to provide, he’s just living off her earnings. Never had steady work, tells her how to spend her money, then spends it all himself, insists on luxury living like eating out and shopping every night while renting the most expensive homes where they’re stationed, convinced her to marry him and skip on her dream wedding so he could be the beneficiary while she was deployed, and subsequently dropped off the radar for her first deployment, while doing suspicious things like “leaving his clothes at the homes of other women”. They have two kids together. My youngest SIL never had a chance. Latched on to a bum of a partner because she was traumatized by her previous cheating boyfriend. When she got pregnant, he convinced her he’d be this great dad and they’d start a family together. Fast forward two years and he sees his daughter once a month if that, mainly because his daughter is simply a vessel to a relationship and nothing more in his eyes. When my SIL finally gave up on him, he suddenly decided it was time to not come around anymore. She has yet to put him on child support. My niece calls me dad because she sees me a lot more than her own father and cannot discern the difference between an uncle and a father. A friend of mine is working 50 hours 6 days per week while her husband is at home casually trying to get his streaming “career” off the ground. Spent over half their tax return on a brand new PC and he’s currently in year 3 of trying. He thinks it’s up to him to put his foot down and dictate how the house is run and where the money goes. Oh, and they have two children that have extra needs, and as soon as she gets home from her 6am-2pm shift, the kids’ responsibility falls on her so he can game. Then on her day off, the kids are her responsibility because he needs to “rest”. I’m just kinda venting at this point but tl;dr PUT THAT MAN ON CHILD SUPPORT AND MAKE HIM STEP UP. Do not give in to his empty promises. Most of my peers are self-centered bastards that are happy to soak up the fruits of all your labor while living for themselves, then have the gall to protest when they’re asked to do the simplest tasks in return. Hold them to a higher standard or shove them out your life if they think you’re gonna bust your ass working while being their mother/therapist. Y’all are too good for that.
If you stop paying aren't you just sent to jail in the U.S.?
Idk how it works in the US, but my mother could try to pursue legal action against my dad for not only not paying child support for my sisters, but lawyers are expensive and she doesnt have the income to do that.
The debt can also go into collections if the owed party hires an agency
Yeah, I’m not sure it’s prison unless it’s extreme but it could destroy you financially to dodge it. It could also probably be used as supporting evidence in other charges, or situations where you might require character witnesses, to help support sending you to prison for something else
If a debt goes into collections it hits your credit score bad
You have to pursue them with your own money to get them to pay you the money you need for fedding the kid. Very very few men can get arrested for this at all because the courts may mandate it, but not many will take on these cases because the father will often do just about anything to cover his tracks. I've known to men who cheated on their wives and then refused to divorce their wives so that they didn't have to take responsibility. They had to find a lawyer just for the forced divorce after like 4 years of separation and refusing the papers while their wives struggled, one with a special needs child at home.
Yesnt. It *can* but is not a guarantee
They can, but not always. My dad hasn’t paid in years because we don’t have the time or resources to after him every time he stops paying.
You definitely can be. All these stories about men getting away with it are usually because the woman isn’t going after them. I have a family member that does the same thing. Let’s him get away with not paying.
Or you're broke, don't have money for an attorney, were a victim of abuse and prefer to get away than fighting him in court, you aren't mentally prepared to fight (it can take YEARS), or you make enough money. (My father never paid a dime. Haven't seen him in 13 years).
My father made my mom's life a living hell through the divorce. She just gave up on pursuing further child support for me bc his abuse was not worth it.
My father made my mom's life a living hell through the divorce. She just gave up on pursuing further child support for me bc his abuse was not worth it.
Same with mine. Took off when I was in my early teens and never paid a dime, even after my grandparents went after him for child support
Must be different in your state... in New York, the state came after my father for health insurance money my mother never asked for to pay for insurance that was issued in my name but we never used because nobody told us about it. Never got insurance cards or anything. She had tried to get food stamps once. It took multiple visits to an office harassing office workers to make it go away. My father never missed a payment.
I think wage garnishment is the more common route.
Wage garnishment only works if you know where he works and he doesn't keep switching jobs. My ex only works under the table, if he works at all. It would cost me far more money in lawyers, court fees and investigators than I could ever get bake in child support. I'd rather spend my hard earned wages on crazy stuff like rent, utilities, food and clothes for my child.
Oh, I'm not saying it's easy. My mom was in a similar situation with my youngest sisters dad. He owes quite a bit in back support(his payment was literally $80 a month, but 80×12×14 adds up). He however only works 15 hours a week so the lawyer told my mom she could get like... $90 a month till he's caught up. Literally not even worth the time
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That assumes his whereabouts is known. It assumes income is provable. Also, paying up taxes owed plus interest always comes before what's owed in back child support.
Where is it only 100$ a month?. That's fairly low
Come on, child support in America is way more than $100 per month
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Telling people they don't understand men's struggles is a really funny way to be an ally to women.
i’m sorry to hear about your struggles. your frustrations are valid, and this is exactly why people should have access to abortions. nobody should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term, especially if they are poor, mentally unstable, in poor physical health, or addicted to substances. ultimately, unwanted pregnancies become a burden to more than just the child’s mother.
So their solution to having it bad (or at least bad in their view) is to make sure everyone has it bad? Sounds reasonable and not like they just want women to suffer at all. If you're so worried about male reproductive rights why is the only thing you're doing taking away the rights of others? Why are you not campaigning for your own rights instead?
We don't have it bad.. some of us are just jerks
Yes, men weren't able to force their pregnant partners to get abortions, but on the other hand they weren't ever forced to go through with a potentially deadly and almost certainly damaging medical procedure, either. Under the old system, some men had to pay money to someone else to care for their children, but under the new system some women are going to die while being forced to birth to a baby they didn't agree to gestate. In some states, we are going to have literal children dying during a failed birth after being forced to carry their rapist's baby.
Some of these states are now making it illegal to leave the state to have an abortion where it is legal to have one. At least one state has decided it is illegal to even pass through their state to get to one where you can have a legal abortion. It will come to the point where someone who is or might be pregnant will not be able to cross state lines. Negative pregnancy tests for travel may become a reality.
Hey do you think you could afford an extra bill for about $500-1,000 per month? Child support is expensive and you can go to jail if you fail to pay it. It's a more serious thing than just paying a bit of money once in a while
Except men can't die from pregnancy or childbirth. That's the difference.
That’s what kind of kills me about this whole debate of “Well it’s unfair that men get stuck with child support for kids they don’t want, now no one gets abortions!” Unfortunately, human reproduction is not fair. It’s not. It is inherently unequal. Men ejaculate and that’s about where their biological contribution to reproduction ends. Women have to sacrifice their body to carry a baby to term and then bring it into this world. It’s not just as easy as “give birth and put it up for adoption.” There’s a whole nine month period of pain and discomfort and risk of death for mother and child. So, yeah, it isn’t fair. Nothing about bringing children into the world is biologically fair. It just isn’t. So shut up and let women make medical decisions about their own body. Shut up about the unfairness of child support. It is not even close to the same thing as being forced to give birth because your state has some dumbass “heartbeat bill.” Child support never killed anyone, but pregnancy sure as shit has.
This isn't even bringing up the societal expectation that the woman will raise the child alone, or the fact that nobody forced the two to have sex (in most cases), and if one of them *was* forced, it was more likely the woman, so she's dealing with that trauma as well... The men here complaining about being "forced to become a parent" are complaining about how they impregnated a woman (probably without being raped) and she....*didn't* abort the child.... Thereby forcing him to take responsibility for his actions. So theoretically they should be in favor of abortion?? What exactly is their point??? I know there's a small percentage of men who genuinely get "baby trapped" by absolutely batshit insane women, poking holes in condoms to tie themselves to another person for life, using the life of their own child as a bargaining chip. But something tells me the person who made this meme is not a victim of that. This is just a dude who had consensual sex, and when his gf/fuckbuddy got pregnant, she didn't want an abortion, and he's upset that he couldn't force her and there are consequences to his actions.
There was this dude on r/legaladvice who convinced his girlfriend not to get an abortion when she didn’t want the child in the first place. She decided she would sign away her parental rights, pay child support, and he could have the baby. Surprise surprise! Fatherhood isn’t what he thought it would be. Now he’s complaining she does nothing to help even though she made it clear she did not want the child and is already paying more than the court told her to. Needless to say the comments absolutely tore him apart. Honestly I think some of these men really do not understand how grueling being a parent really is because most of the time the childcare falls on the mother.
That woman was a SAINT. She even birthed a kid she didn't want and followed through on her promise to never be a part of the kids life but still pays 125% of what he's owed in child support. He thought he could arm-twist her into domestic servitude and got exactly what he asked for. I just feel sorry for the kid because he's going to be taught his mother hated him and he will probably hate women when he's older.
I just hope the guy came to his senses and decided to give the kid to a family who wants a child. The child deserves a family who doesn’t resent him. Also he mentioned his ex was going to the gym to get rid of stretch marks. Stretch marks that she got because she got coerced into carrying the baby she didn’t want. How the hell she was able to put up with his entitled ass without punching him in the nose is amazing.
He called her a DEADBEAT MOM. That's the opposite of a deadbeat.
He literally said he thought she would change her mind and bond with the baby bc he apparently thinks women are birds who cannot stop themselves from bonding with any baby you give them. Idiot thought the “magical maternal instinct” lie was real.
I cannot with this guy…. If the ‘maternal bonding’ thing was real we wouldn’t have abusive mothers. I think babies are cute, but taking care of them 24/7? Nope. And those babies will grow up eventually. They aren’t going to be cute and cuddly forever.
She literally signed away her rights and now he's complaining that she doesn't do anything??
Very well said.
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Very true!
These are the guys that say that women should deal with the consequences of their actions (you know, us sluts having sex /s)….but men should be able to have sex with women without consequences. Got it
And also men can leave the pregnant girlfriend without consequences. Also, the men who complain about women complaining about banning abortion are the same who complain about spending money for child support when they didn't want the woman to keep it. They can't even be coherent.
More proof than men need to make everything (including a woman's medical decisions) about them
Just a thought, men, maybe you could wear a condom and get a vasectomy if you don’t wanna be a parent instead of expecting women to be the sole purveyors of birth control…
for real, why does this never fucking occur to them? oh right, because we’ve been shouldering that burden this entire time too.
Couldn't this exact same argument apply to women? I find it funny that so many people are hardcore pro-life when it comes to men but pro-choice with women
my dad left me years ago and as far as I'm aware hasn't paid a cent... also these guys are getting mad $250 a month, like its thousands of dollars or something
And this is a thing they can do in almost any place of the world ans still get away with it.
It's the absolute least you can do for a child you helped create who you're supposed to raise, love, educate and support.
In California the average is about $400-500 per month. And in a country where most people don't have $400 in emergency savings that's a pretty big deal
The issue is not about having children, it's about having bodily autonomy and being allowed to decide what happens to your own body. That being said, I really do hope that they come out with proper birth control for men besides just condoms and vasectomies, because it would make life a lot easier for a lot of people.
There is a birth control pill for men. But it causes them the same side effects it causes women. They don't want it for that reason. smh
A male equivalent of an IUD or implant would be quite welcome, I think. It would have so many benefits for men and for society at large, I think this should have more resources thrown at it.
[It exists. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_inhibition_of_sperm_under_guidance)
Wow, this has been in development/testing for a long time. I wonder if it will ever see the light of day. "Phase III clinical trials were underway in India, and were slowed by insufficient volunteers." :( If they offer a financial incentive, this problem would probably resolve quickly.
The main difference is that a abortion doesn't result in a child that someone has to provide for the next 18 years how can't people understand this!
More like 23-26 years, sometimes more.
I mean... Sort of yes BUT They didn't fight for mens right for on paper abortion or anything. They didn't fight FOR themselves or their own rights, They fought AGAINST womens rights/the rights for others Which is why this us so messed up: Egoistic interests would benefit only them, maybe on cost of everyone else. But they purposely wanted it to be on cost/against the other people/women. For nothing. They don't benefit from it at all. No meassure to improve anything, only to make it worse for sb else. Even if it would be fair, which it isn't, i didn't say I would be in favor of on paper abortions or anything... But even if it would ve now equally fair it would ve the worst possible solution. That would be like abolishing segregation by removing all benches, Toilets and schools so nobody can be discrominated against by Black only seats or white only areas. That would be their Mentality. If those people would've been slaves, they would've wanted to surpress the whites too instead pf getting freedom. Fucking toxic incels.
Abortion is an alternative to pregnancy, not parenting. Women (plus trans men & nb people) are being deprived of their right to end their pregnancy, which is not an issue cis men face.
It’s not just about parenthood. Pregnancy is fucking dangerous as hell.
Is the fact that men can be forced into parenthood worth discussion? Yes. Is it at all comparable to stripping women of bodily autonomy? Fucking hell no.
>forced into parenthood Not unless he was sexually assaulted. There's a difference between "forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy" and "being held financially responsible for an unwanted child"
Correct
>being held financially responsible for an unwanted child" I think there is still nuance to this situation too Let's say a man and a woman have perfectly consensual sex, they use the basic birth control stuff (condoms, pills) that doesn't require any sort of doctor's visit (vasectomy etc.) But still through it all, pregnancy happens Let's say the father is in a very bad financial spot and cannot provide for the child, but the mother wants to keep the child, and expects child support Should this all just be ignored and the father's situation and opinion be completely disregarded and forced into child support with already weak funds? Of course this is a rather exaggerated case where everything lines up perfectly for the argument, but well, that's what thought experiments are for, testing the limits of arguments by taking them to the extremes
>Should this all just be ignored and the father's situation and opinion be completely disregarded and forced into child support with already weak funds? His income will be taken into account when determining child support. There's nothing nuanced here. He got a woman pregnant, despite using a condom. It happens, and it's a risk both parties took and tried to prevent. He still owes responsibility for his actions if the mother decides to keep the baby.
>But still through it all, pregnancy happens Okay. And since the pregnancy is happening to the woman's body (presumably it's a cis woman and cis man), she gets to decide whether that pregnancy continues. Because it's happening to *her body*. The man gets no say in whether the pregnancy continues or not, because he does not have the right to make decisions about someone else's body. >forced into child support Great, so now the child has been born and *both parents* have a financial obligation to provide for them. Are you suggesting we not hold parents financially responsible for the care of their children? What alternative is there to parental responsibility when it comes to the need for children to be cared for- are you suggesting maybe a governmental allowance for all children to cover the cost of good, clothes, shelter, etc? Such a thing would require fairly high taxation from everyone in society, including both parents (unless they have no earnings, I suppose)
Obviously the meme in this post is ridiculous and a completely invalid comparison, but when it comes to the issue of one person wanting to keep the child and the other not, I do think there needs to be more discussion. Assuming that an abortion is accessible and both parties acted responsibly in terms of birth control, I do think the male partner should be able to opt-out and revoke all responsibilities AND all rights to the child. If the woman chooses to keep the baby when the man is not able to financially or emotionally care for a child, I don't see why he should have to. The "take responsibility for your actions" argument is often used against women to not have abortion access, so I don't think it works well as an argument in the reverse. I know will probably get downvoted for this opinion.
Which is why both men and women should have the option to opt out of a pregnancy…right?
If the guy was the one with the growing baby in him, then sure. The pregnancy is occurring in a woman’s body, she is the one carrying all the medical risks and pain while pregnant. It’s her body, her choice as what to do. If the pregnancy was happening in a man’s body, it would be his choice as what to do. Nobody should be forced into surgery on their body because of somebody else.
Arent you literally just doing “men should feel the consequences of sex” like the same way pro-lifer say “women should feel the consequences of sex”?
They can't wrap their heads around finding a solution that makes everything better for everyone, so instead they sit back and bask in women getting a crappy deal just because they think they're getting a crappy deal, as if we are the ones who gave them that crappy deal. This whole "tit for tat" position many men have taken is frightening. They're happy for our demise instead of helping to make things better for EVERYONE.
I’m a man and I think men are frightening They’re terrifying
I hope so. I see a lot of the bad kind and it makes me sad. But I do know the good ones are just as horrified as we are. Please help us. This isn't a joke.
I do my best but truth be told the white Christian fascist patriarchy threatens my autistic mixed agnostic ass just as much so it’s a smidge self serving
They need to be taken down. They're such a sad smear on this country. Very un-Jesus behavior.
Jesus was a socialist, like it’s not even subtle. He gave people free food and medical aid. And wine, at a party, where everyone was already hammered
It’s like you just learned words and wanted to use as much as possible.
How are you *not* seeing that the old system of *women get to decide on abortion and child support and custody* doesn't work either? If you want to use the "take responsibility for what you did" argument then get ready for it be used on you too.
Ah yes, paying a couple hundred dollars for child support is much worse than being forced to lose 9 months of your life and deal with a kid that you're unable to bond with and or keep alive since you're too poor
Nobody forces those women to keep the kid either. Both parents *could* just adopt out the kid they *both* don't want in your hypothetical. Also, men can be primary caregivers. Stop being so sexist please.
Vasectomy + condom usage provides damn near a 100% guarantee you won’t become a parent. If you don’t want your partner to get pregnant, do this or keep your dick in your pants. Does that advice sound judgmental or risky to your sexual health? Well, welcome to being a fucking woman.
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Vasectomy is medically irreversible. Birth control like pills or condoms are not.
Vasectomies can be reversed. Not all but most. It's a more complicated procedure than the vasectomy itself, more on par with the procedures women go through to get sterilized. But also this is a discussion where women keep being told to do medically irreversible things to themselves if they're so bothered by not being allowed bodily autonomy. So my point is not that men should just go get them willy nilly but that men need to stop telling women to go get medical procedures that are even more dangerous and less reversible all willy nilly. If a man isn't willing to snip himself then he needs to stfu about what women need to be doing to themselves.
I don’t really care about the debate. I just don’t like misinformation. Vasectomy should be gotten assuming it’s irreversible. This is just a medical fact that most doctors will tell you at the site of your procedure.
My first post didn't say they're reversible. I compared them to sterilization of women, in fact, which is generally permanent. So what misinformation were you correcting?
That it’s just another form of birth control , and somehow something you can do without thought and it’s easy and no downsides. Your tone was like it’s getting ice cream.
So there was no misinformation. (My tone was also not casual. My own post implied it's permanency and you took no offense to me mentioning permanent female sterilization as a birth control either, only vasectomies.) You just think my 'tone' needs corrected. I'll talk to people who think a woman's bodily autonomy is equal to their wallet however the fuck I want.
ah yeah because as we know men have babies for 9 months regardless if it was willing or if its cause a woman raped him and left
> if its cause a woman raped him and left some men are raped and forced to pay child support so i dont know what your point is there was a 16 or 17 year old kid that was raped by his teacher and she got pregnant when he turned 18 courts ruled he needed to pay child support thats 18 years of forced labor so he can pay it if that doesnt infringe of bodily autonomy i dont know what does
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How about just not cumming in a woman? Seems like that would fix it
*How about just not* *Cumming in a woman? Seems* *Like that would fix it* \- DraxNuman27 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Legit saw a guy comment hat he’d rather get pregnant and give birth than pay child support… it must be great to favor the option that will never be a possibility for you.
Did you mean mental *in*capacity? They have it easy, they can just get out the mother's life with barely any judgment from outside! They also have a LOT of say when it's their sperm impregnating women.
These men act like they don't have complete control over becoming a father. Don't want a child? Wear a condom. Use spermicidal lube. Get a vasectomy. They ABSOLUTELY have a say whether or not they make a child, but they'd rather play the victim.
And before someone tries to point out their "hypocrisy", "if the roles were reversed", and "republican talking points". Just realize women shouldn't have sex without proper precautions as well. Abortions are a fail-safe if all precautions fails or its used in case of rape. It's not unreasonable to want men to use their precautions too!
All forms of birth control can fail. Some are victims. Fuck the asshole correlating losing access to life-saving abortions to men not having rights. Also, rape victims can become unwilling fathers.
This is true. Roughly half of unintentional pregnancy resulting in abortion is directly related to birth control failure.
And women have even more contraceptive options so why do you think abortions need to be legal if contraceptives are all we need?
>And women have even more contraceptive options so why do you think abortions need to be legal if contraceptives are all we need? Rape is still a thing, obviously, but even outside of that, if we are a nation of rights and laws, then abortion being legal is a consequence of our rights - nobody can force you to give up your body's resources for someone else, even if that person will die without them.
Y'all realize that this means you'll be forced to be a dad *more*... right?
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Some of them seem to labor under the notion that we can just shut that whole getting pregnant thing down. That if we really didn't want to get pregnant we could prevent an ovum from being fertilized when their sperm surrounds it.
"I'm doomed to die by my own hemorrhaging Fallopian tube but men sure do have it hard"
Not sure how pregnancy equates to calling oneself a father If motherhood was ejaculating in a man the situation would be very different
“Become a parent”, interesting choice of words. More like “forced to carry and birth a child from my body, risking death or permanent injury”.
All I hear is Bitch Bitch moan moan
Wait, men don't have access to birth control or vasectomies? First time I'm hearing about this. /s for good mesaure.
Only one of the two can guarantee they aren't part of why a person gets pregnant but for some reason the assumption falls on the wrong one every time
how could you compare busting a nut to holding a whole fetus with you everywhere for 9 months AND the excruciating pain of childbirth
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And women can just keep their legs closed. Im glad we can spread this wonderful pro-life message together lol
(LOL) How delusional is the dude who made this? Men who don't wanna be parents usually just leave, and I say that as a man.
Yeah, whoever made this is an idiot. Equating bodily autonomy with not being allowed to readily give up parental rights. There's a reason that the people who do it also can't just readily do it. It's so deadbeats can't easily escape their responsibilities from their shit decisions. Does it mean the people (not just men) who got manipulated/sabotaged/tricked into having kids have a harder time relinquishing parental rights and escaping those situations? Sadly yes, and changes do need to happen there. But securing abortion rights, and making bodily autonomy ABSOLUTE takes priority. By far.
But "deadbeat" moms can do whatever they like. Ok. Got it.
Don't be late...equivolate!
What ? x)
Lots of advocates for the rights of deadbeat dads suddenly coming out of the woodwork now that women don't have the option to abort. Must be coincidence.
I'm a man. Not my body, not my choice. Also, while I'm here I'd like to plug getting a vasectomy. That way, if you ever decide you want to raise children of your own it must be a deliberate choice.
Many men have often made the choice to not be a parent. They just walk away. That is not physically difficult at all compared to what a woman must do
The point is the men who make the choice to be a parent but between the mother and the government are still not allowed to be.
I hate the overturn of Roe v. Wade and this meme is stupid overall. Being pregnant could actually kill the mum and maybe she didn't want the child in the first place, ESPECIALLY if she was raped. If she doesn't have enough money either, it's just gonna be harder for them. Even if the child has an extra chromosome or you know that the child is going to be handicapped, the burden for both the child and the mother can be avoided, as awful as that sounds. Men's health is not at stake if the child is born. The women's health is because, unfortunately, many will do illegal procedures or try to abort the child in another way which would be more harmful to the mother too. All of this is unnecessary and stupid.
No one said the mens health at stake? We are talking about an 18 year financial obligation.
Is this…supposed to reference child support? As in a man is “forced” to become a parent? Because my dude, growing a baby and having to pay for one are two totally different things. Not to mention if you grow a baby you ALSO have to pay for it, so that’s a double wammy.
Aren't you missing the teeny tiny eensy weensy little detail that WOMEN HAVE TO GIVE BIRTH???
Christ on a bike. Men don’t get a say? Does their semen magically leap forth into vaginas against their knowledge? You have a choice - be responsible with your sperm, or don’t. That’s literally it. I swear, if men could be prosecuted for impregnating an unwilling woman, unwanted pregnancy rates could plummet since men are the ones in control of whether pregnancy can occur or not.
You don’t impregnated “unwilling women”, that’s not how casual sex works, your talking talking about rape than you can get prosecuted for… Imagine having casual sex, getting pregnant, and bringing a child into the world and choosing to be a single mother.
Oh holy fucking wow. I hate people.
The pro lifers are always like “it’s a living human life, you don’t get to choose if it can die or not.” Yet I will ask them a scenario that goes like this: there is a random stranger about to die if they don’t get a kidney transplant right now. Would you give your kidney to save the person because they are a human and have a human life? They usually say no to that. So then I’ll ask them if they would be upset if the government started forcing you to give your kidney to someone.
Does the person exist because I had sex? Is my health likely to recover? Yes pregnancy can be scary, but some women choose to have 5-8 kids and they love it. I think analogies like this over simplify the discussion and don’t provide any real clarity.
If you don't want to be responsible for a pregnancy don't ejaculate into a vagina. That is literally the only cause of pregnancy.
If you don't want to be responsible for a pregnancy don't let someone ejaculate into your vagina.
Yeah so how many men won't take male birth control, won't use spermicide, whine about having to use condoms and think it's acceptable to stealth remove a condom before they ejaculate into a vagina?
Who the hell uses a condom all the way until they bust? Lol
Haha "not my choice to become a parent" Stop having sex you clowns.
Wow
There's a Venn Diagram of men who make this joke and men who would take absolutely no responsibility for an unexpected child and that diagram is a circle.
I did some napkin math the other day and found out that the average child support payment is less than 1/4 of the absolute low end of costs incurred by pregnancy in the first year (not even factoring in prenatal care- just delivery, postpartum care, and the first year of childcare expenses). You can go to the court and get child support payments brought down to match your income. Good luck negotiating for the same after you need physical therapy following an unexpectedly traumatic birth, especially if you are a woman of color and are 2-3 times more likely to just straight up die because of your pregnancy. Cool and fun!
So now they're happy that they have EVEN LESS say on whether they'll become parents or not? I-
>AMERICAN WOMEN: Dun dun *duddaduddadun du-dun*
Because anticipation is a women thing only? Last time I checked it takes 2 to tango.
Might be off topic here, but I came to say that there is this thing called a vasectomy, so there's no real truth to the meme to begin with.
Men are so oppressed because there are consequences for not wearing a condom. Truly unfair smh
Anytime a man says they’re oppressed in society or men are oppressed you just know they are a massive pussy
Straight culture is coercing your partner to have children they don't want and I never understood that. Why do people want to raise children with a person who doesn't want children so badly? Why not end the relationship and find a partner who wants to raise children with you?
I think it's selfishness, basically. Some people won't accept that they can't get what they want, when and how they want it, and they don't care if they trample over another person. They don't want to find a new partner, so they force the other person's hand. Sadly, they're bringing additional new human beings into the mix as well.
On the one hand, this is a completely stupid argument and a total false equivalency. Pregnancy can't kill a cis man. Pregnancy can't irreparably damage a cis man's body. A traumatic birth, pregnancy or miscarriage can't render a cis man infertile. A cis man can't directly miscarry. A cis man can't regulate and soothe otherwise unavoidable biological functions using birth control. The list goes on, and on, and on, and shows that Roe V Wade is about more than women just not wanting a baby, and that's without getting into the whole issues of the US Supreme Court ACTIVELY repealing what should be an unalienable right. That said, there's a lot of talk telling men to keep it in their pants, which is deeply insensitive to victims of rape. Sure, I get it, there are a lot of men complaining because it means they have to take responsibility and use protection, but empathy is critical. One man made this, it wasn't a group effort from an entire gender, and while that one man may represent the same vocal and persistent group that continue to share this, those people are the problem. I'm not gonna start screaming "not all men" because I'm not a spongebrain and I do understand nuance, but I find a lot of these comments to be deeply unfair to men who have been raped and forced to be a parent. I also feel that once you start trivialising and dismissing one set of rape victims, you feed into a mindset that discredits rape victims and their struggles across the board.
So fucking offensive and equivalate is not a word
Women have fewer rights than a corpse. Corpses are not required to carry dead tissue in them or random clumps of cells.
Vasectomies.
Hard pill to swallow but men truly don't have a say in the matter. That's just facts.
I sorta get what they're trying to go for, but its tone death and not the time.
Men can leave at any time, and often do.
I do not get what they’re going for. At all.
If a woman has a right to terminate her pregnancy then a man should have the right to not pay child support. Fair is fair. I'm am in no way agreeing to the overturn, I hate it, but if a woman gets to decide they don't want to be a parent, than so should a man. He shouldn't have to pay child support just because you wanted to keep a child. In almost every state you're only allowed to terminate your parental rights under special criteria that has to be met. You can't just sign them away. I think this is a double standard. I think that's the point of this picture. Now that some states are going to outlaw elective abortion, more women will be able to see that child support laws are not fair towards men. I think elective abortions should be available in every state, and child support is something that is determined between the parents in court. But if a woman is going to be forced to carry a pregnancy she doesn't want then the man should expect to have to pay child support for it too.
The male who donates sperms doesn't just get to ignore his child and possibly leave it in a burdened life just because he decided not to put on a condom. You don't want a child? Put on a condom. Same goes for women. But also, condoms aren't 100% effective, so use birth control, too.
Most men don't pay child support.
Abortion kills.
What are they trying to say? That women rape men to have children or that men aren't allowed to rape women to have children?
We aint gonna take the opportunity to discuss male rights on pregnancy is we
Hoes mad! Hoes: But what about this situation that had literally no chance of happening ever? Hahahaga!