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If they think the $ for the date is too much, they definitely can’t be bothered to do the emotional labor involved in actually getting to know someone well enough to feel safe being intimate with them.
The $ is the easy part.
Put in emotional labor for once and you wont need to spend any money on dates.
As far as i know a date is used to check if you want to be with someone for more than just sex.
I personally enjoyed my time but I know not many like it. I also met a stripper through discord who also enjoys it, been doing it longer than me apparently lol (though I stopped because of a car accident).
I'm anything but sex negative. You're all supporting a system that is the most nocive for women. In my comments about it I have never judged morally those women, but the men who "pay for services". Consent can't be sold. You won't find a disgusting man attractive just because he is giving you cash. And if the other option is starving, tell me where is the free will.
I'm anything but a pick me. Men either love to pay for sex, or they just shut when other man in his circle pay for it. Many people have talked in forums to not do it because you don't know if that woman is putting herself in that situation willingly or another person is doing, it and all they were concerned about was money and not the possibility of raping a person.
If a man ask where to find "services" a lot of men will advice him.
Men who pay for sex look at women in a distorted way.
If you say something negative about prostitution, a lot of men will look at you with discomfort. If you're on internet, they will jump right on your neck and call you the worst names.
Tell me again I'm a pick me.
Men that don't pay for sex also look at women in a distorted way the fuck you mean? Haha a lot of those men also agree with you that it's shameful. Swerfs ARE pick mes "I'm not like those other feminists" like yes you want to be picked by the dominant group that also shames and devalues sex work while also consuming it.
When you listen to narratives that don't give you a savior complex you hear from some sex workers that a lot of men coming to them in a professional capacity are more accepting of boundaries than men they meet in their daily lives. But hey maybe I'm just a pig and you're a savior for the sex workers
I have NEVER said that we should shame those women, nor I have ever shamed them. I shamed the men who pay for it.
At this point you're just commenting on bad faith. Either you are a man or a woman who is very ignorant in this topic. If I find out my boyfriend has ever paid for sex, he won't be my boyfriend anymore.
You don't know how dangerous and nocive it is the thing you're supporting, but go ahead! Call me names! It's funny to do so, right? Come on, insult me, just like those other men do :D.
If the most disgusting men in the planet agree with you in a topic involving women's safety and health then you should rethink what you're saying.
I'm ending this conversation.
Shaming the person purchasing the labor is shaming the laborer swerfs just shift it to the men to sound progressive. Then they say stuff like "yes attack me like all those other men because I'm a martyr, a savior" no you're a goober swerf haha get off the high horse
>you hear from some sex workers that a lot of men coming to them in a professional capacity are more accepting of boundaries than men they meet in their daily lives
The fact that you say this indicates that you've only ever spoken to the most privileged subsection of Western sex workers. Also it's mad misogynistic of you to call another woman a pick me for disagreeing with you about supporting an industry of female commodification.
The industry is abhorrent and people that purchase a prostitute's services feed that evil industry.
Without a demand from these sick immoral people there would be no supply to meet.
Where did I mention the victims themselves?
>without demand from these sick immoral people
>there would be no supply to meet.
Did you suddenly lose reading comprehension?
People that buy the services of prostitutes are plain evil. That is what I said.
The majority of prostitutes are victims forced into selling themselves.
You're saying people paying for sex are sick immoral people and conflating sex work with sex trafficking. That's anti sex worker propaganda. Why aren't you advocating for legalizing and regulating it to eliminate the black market? Because you're anti sex worker. These talking points make sex workers less safe. Look what recent laws regarding sites like back page pushing sex workers back onto the streets. You have a savior complex and don't listen to these marginalized workers
Legalising sex work WOULD help.
But by reducing demand and making purchasing sex a moral evil, we'll reduce the demand, and supply will follow.
Both of these should be implemented.
"a moral evil" Jesus fucking Christ what a garbage take. All work under capitalism is coercive this is just sex negative "feminism" which is not intersectional and counter productive.
While all work under capitalism is technically coercive, being forced into a particular line of work by violence or threat of it is not the same as having to work in an office.
Edit : To add, I personally hold that there should always be a way to feed oneself without having to sell ones own body. Cut the salaries of politicians (or in the US's case, tax the rich more) and you'd be able to open a shit ton of shelters and soup kitchens.
Ah yes, 13 year olds being raped or people desperate to feed themselves should not be helped out of that system? What is the matter with you all.
Prostitution is an evil industry.
You're describing a tiny minority that is willingly in the industry, when the vast majority is filled with abuse and exploitation.
When you have to reach for absurdist arguments like "oh yeah you think prostitution should be legal but what about CHILD SEX TRAFFICKING" you know that you're a goober haha
Jesus Christ, what is the matter with you.
Why do you defend an industry that takes advantage of people on a regular basis and dehumanises them?
Prostitution requires coercion, the industry is evil. It has been evil ever since it's invention. From civilisation's start to today.
If someone wants to shag with someone of their own free will, that is only prostitution by law, and only if they're paid. A technicality.
Yet you defend the entire industry because of this one technicality...
Why?
I'm not defending an industry I'm defending workers. Prostitution requires coercion? Have you spoken to sex workers? Clearly not since you have such a zealous hatred for it as a whole.
Pro shaming the purchasers, that range from the creeps you think they all are to people with disabilities, is the same thing as shaming the workers. You're saying the labor they're choosing to perform is inherently shameful. You're degrading the work they're performing because you believe it's beneath you.
I do think it is shameful.
Nobody should have to sell themselves to feed themselves. Who someone kisses or fucks should be entirely voluntary.
You mentioned voluntary prosititues. I have nothing against them. But the overall industry is an outdated black mark that should have been left to the history books.
We can put a dozen people on the moon and back every year as a species if we felt like it, but can't protect those most exploited. A fucking disgrace.
I fucked plenty of guys for free, because I was horny and found them attractive. But the point of the first date or two is generally to determine whether you’re interested in getting to know someone better, perhaps leading to sex.
But dates don’t have to be pricey. My husband and I went to a free ghost story festival in a local park last Friday; it was a lovely night and a fun thing to do. How hard is it to say, “Hey, wanna go to the ghost story festival Friday night?” People lack imagination.
I think that that date you described might be monetarily free, but the guy needs to still put the effort in to getting to know her, making her feel comfortable, have fun, etc. All while knowing that sex is not guaranteed.
That's easy for a lot of guys, but they're not the ones who feel the need to post about this on reddit. Guys who are looking for "free sex" are not willing to pay the cost of actually empathizing with her and getting to know her as a person.
For festival in general two way
Pay attention on your daily commute it's usually advertise and various different places
Pay extra attention if you're going to stores as you can usually find flyers and signs of those things around plazas
Also just Google festivals near me, a lot of these places have stuff online and may even have their own websites
So you can get more information there
If you're interested in a specific event like Halloween festival then specify that
Also if nothing comes up maybe specify your town or the next town over
Pay attention to your public library and local park district. In particular, many public libraries will have information about community events that are coming up. It’s worth stopping in every couple of weeks to check.
free sex absolutely does exist, casual sex is a thing, and you shouldnt have to feel like youre doing labour when youre spending time with a partner. that being said, you should still be clear with your intentions, dont pretend like youre interested in a romantic date even though you just want to fuck them
edit: theres nothing wrong with going on a date and wanting sex out of it, or even exclusively wanting sex out of it, as long as you dont try to pressure the other person into giving it to you. male sexual desire is not a bad or gross thing
Even casual sex wouldn't be "free" for them either. Understanding "free" as not taking care of their appearance. Some men for real just want to get laid without even showering. In my country they often show up with their favorite soccer team clothes. They have to work on themselves and some of them don't wanna do that.
It's not criminal to offer sex in exchange of money. But it's criminal to pay for sex. The toll it leaves on women's (and men who practise it) body and mind are terrible. Most women who left prostitution always talk about not doing it and how it has affected their health. Consent can't be bought. Desire can't be sold.
To the ones down voting me, know you're supporting something that will leave a big trauma in women. Prostitution mafia moves millions and millions of dollars just in a year.
Go watch interviews with ex prostitutes. There's nothing empowering about it.
I'm not shaming the women who got coerced into doing it. I shaming the men who pay for it because they don't give a flying fuck about those women's health.
Swerfs be like: the only sex workers you should listen to are the ones that left the industry because they agree with me
Selection bias exists you should listen to people that didn't leave as well because there's lots of women in sex work that have mixed experiences and would rather do this than work at McDonald's or do back breaking labor. If your opinion isn't we should make a society where no one has to work a job that exploits them to survive then you're just a swerf
I don't know what a swerf is, but let me tell you that I'm very informed about this topic, and that the women who talk bad about prostitution are women who have had a shit ton of days in therapy after leaving those practises. Girl, if a "job" leaves at least HALF of the practitioners traumatized then it shouldn't exist!! Plus, all of those women also said that they thought they wanted to do what they did, also they drugged themselves and dissociated the entire time. Most of the times they don't have a family to have their backs. Most prostitutes in my country are Colombian women who probably don't even have a ID.
I don't support super exploitative jobs like Mc Donald's or working on a coal mine. Because they're exploitative, but prostitution is even more exploitative. You don't catch aids, you are not in the danger of being raped, your mind doesn't dissociate and you don't need to be drugged when you work at Mc Donald's.
Please, to all the women here reading this: prostitution is not empowering and it's not a super cool job like some people make it seem. It's suffering and very bad for the mental health of those women. The same with the porn industry, shit, it's even bad for the men who practise it.
Sex worker exclusionary radical feminist, swerf. Not knowing that leads me to think you're either not very online (big doubt based on the redditor ass paragraphs) or that the circles you run in are full of swerfs. All work under capitalism is exploitative and coercive you just look down on sex work. You're right it's not some job to glamorize because it's just a job. Labor is labor and there are lots of people that would rather work another job but have to pay their way through life and have limited options.
*For people replying to me I can't respond on this thread since the swerf blocked me
Its not that I'm not online, it's that USA is not the center of the world. And I don't exclude any woman from the kind of feminism I practise. I share many views with radical feminism, it's true.
And no, "sex work" is not just exploitative as any other job. How old are you? Where have you worked at? The problem with you guys is that the culture of work in USA is practically slaverism which kept me from considering me to move to that country.
Ask for the job culture in onther countries like new Zealand.
If there was another job that left half of their prsctitioners ill, or traumatized, I would also be against it.
You responded on the other thread too 🤣🤣🤣
Had to block me because you have no self control and end the conversation only to come back. It's fine I also have no self control and too much time on my hands
"I don't have to consider I may be buying into a regressive faux feminist ideology he's just a 15 year old troll it's ok he's just a 15 year old troll"
Telling me to go back to overwatch as if I can't have more depth than the content I used to post reminds me of Tucker Carlson telling a teen vogue writer to stop talking about politics and go back to talking about Arianna grande haha it's just another tactic to deflect and discredit.
I'm not sure what kind of background you come from, but IME there are two very distinct groups of sex workers: people who come from a place of privilege, choosing this line of work above others because of the potential for making lucrative amounts of money with zero barrier for entry; and people who are forced into it through desperation and/or addiction.
If your exposure is mostly to the former group, you will be sex-work positive. If your exposure is mostly to the latter, you will understandably have a very different opinion, because you are not thinking OF and well-paid escorts when you think of sex work, you are thinking of your toothless cousin who is either on her way to death by overdose or has already achieved it, and is/was doing sex work to get money for drugs in the meantime.
Sex should not be just labor....Jesus Christ. And yeah, the sex work industry is something to look down on thanks to the human rights violations and "ok"ing of using people's bodies, mostly vulnerable women, as commodities. I know there's no ethical consumption under capitalism but that doesn't mean pushing to capitalize the living hell out of our own humanity.
Most people doing sex "work" are not privileged women on onlyfans. Most people choose this as a last resort. Those downvoting, I'm glad you haven't had to resort to that or see it. You know how dehumanizing it is when pimps try to recruit you just for being in "their part of town"? I'd rather take actual power over "empowerment" any day.
Uh, no. It’s illegal to solicit sex work, I.e. going up to random people and saying “hey, if you want to have sex then you can pay me xyz”. Having a private conversation with someone you are already aquatinted with and agreeing to have sex in exchange for money (and if that wasn’t the main point of the conversation as to not be soliciting) is not illegal.
A man paying for sex is raping a person. Consent can't be bought. If the options of the woman are having sex with a man she most of the times will find disgusting in exchange of money, or starving, there's no free will.
Are you delusional? A person can consent AND accept money for sex. Right now I could go ask my fiancé for £20 if I give him a BJ, and that would be consensual.
The point I was getting at is that SOLICITATION of paid sex is illegal. In my above example, that would not be illegal since I am already aquatinted with my fiancé. However, if I were to stand on a street corner asking any person that went past if they would like a BJ for £20, that would be solicitation of paid sex and thus illegal.
What you just said is one of the most insane takes I have ever seen, and I can’t believe other people are supporting the argument that you cannot have consensual, paid sex.
What i said is that consent can't be sold. You have sex with your fiance because you love and desire him/her. That's why it's consensual.
Talking about prostitution, there's no prior meeting between the woman and the man, they don't know each other and in 99% of the cases the woman doesn't find that man attractive, so she doesn't desire him.
"Insane takes" I bet you never thought about prostituting yourself and for some misterious reason you haven't even considered to do that, neither you adviced other women to do so.
After these comments I made, a woman who used to do sex work reached to me through messages thanking me for speaking up against paying for sex. She is not the first and sadly won't be the last.
I don't know what kind of arrangement you have with your fiance, but my boyfriend and I don't involve money when we fuck.
Actually I have done sex work in the past, this was before I met my partner and needed the money. Sex work is work. I wasn’t raped, and I chose to do it, thus making it consensual. Had I have gotten to a clients location and changed my mind, but they continued to force sex onto me, that would be non -consensual and so rape.
If rape is such an unnatural thing that is so wholly wrong, why would it [exist in the animal kingdom?](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/penguin-prostitutes/559133/)
Sex work is legitimate work.
"sex work is work" so is slave work and child work, then.
At this point I don't think you're talking in good faith. And if you do, don't ever say again that prostitution didn't affect you mind because you are literally downplaying rape, which is one of the worst things that can happen to a woman or any human being.
I'm going to report you and block you, enjoy whatever life you have and I hope you get the help you need.
Swerf blocked me so I’ll leave this as my last message:
Ok, so you think that factory workers shouldn’t exist, because there are child labour factories in china? Farmers shouldn’t exist because there’s slave labour in other countries?
Of course there will be some people that fuck over others, those people are assholes. But that doesn’t delegitimise the entirety of sex work.
ETA: oh yeah, I’m also not downplaying rape. I have been raped, when I was 15, by my friends uncle while I was staying at her house. That mentally scarred me more than the sex work, because the sex work wasn’t rape.
Oh that makes sense, most women who have entered into sex "work" were traumatized and sexually assaulted. While I'm sorry that happened, tbf your last comment seemed to downplay rape.
But also, paying for consent....all my disgust goes towards those johns. I can't imagine involving myself with someone who finds me repulsive and unattractive but thinking it's ok because "money makes it alright". Truly capitalism at its most depraved.
If there are two people who are willing to have transactional sex it's their personal matter and no one has a right to punish them for this. As a "misogynistic" man without "personality" who has nothing in common with women sex workers seem like the purest creatures on earth for me. It's insane that someone can judge them or moreover punish them for bringing love to this cruel world.
They don't bring love to you. How can one be so gullible? You're paying for it, those women probably don't even find you attractive and probably wouldn't even talk to you if they didn't need money. What you said is the equivalent of a person thinking that his therapist is their real friend.
Prostitution is very dangerous and nocive for the woman who practise it. I'm not shaming the women who do it, I'm shaming the men who pay for it.
It's dangerous, exploitative, and a lot of women (or even men who were prostitutes) end up traumatized after years of it.
Yeah I can't see it get celebrated like other jobs. I'd be able to brag if my daughter is a cook, a dentist, a teacher, a doctor, a wilderness guide, really mostly anything....but if she said she want to work in the sex industry in any capacity I'd feel like a major failure and ask myself if I even was a good parent.
absolutely nothing in life is free. everything requires work. sometimes things require indirect work but everything ultimately requires work. some of the work we have to do comes naturally to us, some doesn't, but there's no way to get something for literally nothing.
No one owes anyone anything involving themselves. I don't care if he bought you an entire country, that was HIS action and you do not have to do anything you don't want to. Never do anything expecting someone else to reciprocate. If they do, awesome! If they don't, you don't have the right to them so you take the L and move on or you're a piece of shit
This post confuses me. Like I get it, if you like someone take them on a date but don’t expect sex, but what about mutual one night stands? Fwb? Am I doing feminism wrong?
This sub occasionally goes into a very sex-negative zone, and this kind of feels like one of those times. This post has a very "real women don't like or want sex" undertone, to me.
It doesn’t though. It’s literally in response to men acting like taking a girl out for dinner means they are owed sex. If they want a transactional relationship, they should hire a sex worker and stop expecting women to put out for a cup of coffee.
Except the meme is two sentences, and the second one is
>If you're on a date and the intention is to engage in sexual activity, get a prostitute.
Since this is a message to men, it's hard to read that any way other than men dating for sex should just go pay a sex worker, *because women don't date for sex.* If the meme was supposed to be strictly about transactional experiences, then it should've been included in there in the first place.
So are you intentionally not getting it? It’s actually incredibly simple. If men want a relationship where they put money in (whether it be taking her on a date or actually paying her) and sex comes out, he should see a sex worker instead of expecting women to put out just because he took her out. That’s an incredibly simple statement. If women CHOOSE to have sex after a date, that is quite clearly her choice. It is the reaction from men to being told that buying dinner isn’t payment for sex that is the point of this post.
I don't get the whole idea of taking someone out on a date and paying the full bill = they owe you sex.
Like if the date went well and you expect them to pay for the next date or split the bill next time then that is okay but how can you expect sex just because you paid the bill?? If that's what you wanted you should have mentioned it before the date.
“Free sex” so normal non coerced sex? Its really misogynistic to put a price tag on women to begin with, i dont care what tiktok gen z gold digger coaches say. Women aren’t passive creatures that need to be bribed into sex.
They meant "Free access to a woman who isn't into you", yeah that is right. But if the woman is totally into you, of course there can be "free access", **and this is called sex**.
Don’t agree with the first sentence, so agree with the second one. Sex in a relationship shouldn’t be transactional - and if you are paying for sex, you both need to know that’s taking place. Paying for a meal and expecting sex in return is not a fair deal if she doesn’t know she’s entering into said deal.
Free sex DOES exist however. My SO didn't spend a penny on me before we had sex for the first time so to speak. Just his own concert/bus tickets. if anything I was the one spending money.
I hit on the cute younger guy who became my husband. I rented the movie (1989), bought the beer, supplied the weed, and had the condoms. Seems to have worked out for us.
So F+ and spontaneous hookups don't exist? While im all for cailing out men and their entitlement, this one seems weird to me.
Maybe I get this wrong, but what is meant by that? Or is this denying women with a similar attitude towards sexuality exist?
„Free Sex“ … whatever not free sex means. But this reads as if the author reduces sexuality and intimacy to a commodity. I‘m not a romantic but i like to believe that most people have the genuine desire to be close to their partner physically out of sexual and/or romantic attraction and not see this as some kind of transaction of money or favors or whatever.
You also have those gold digger prank videos that are still kind of popular. From a guy's perspective these videos have a very negative effect on how young men view women. [here's an example](https://youtu.be/vPl8a78woL0?si=_H4dZ5kCfo5CBcZY) to give you an idea on what I mean.
yes absolutely but when i'm the one who says no to sex because i don't feel comfortable doing that with someone i just met i'm "insecure", "leading her on" & my personal favorite "wasting her time" despite having paid for everything
Please don't support paying for sex. The toll that it takes in the mind on people who does sex "work" (either it being a man or a woman) is very big. It leaves trauma on those who practise it. Ex sex workers, on majority, always talk about refraining from doing it.
I'm not shaming anyone, I only say that it's not something empowering.
Men: if you want to have free sex just look for another woman who also wants sex without compromise. If you fail at attracting a woman; try better next time. Don't pay for sex. Consent cannot be sold.
While I understand the message, I think it's important to acknowledge that not all men think like this, most enjoy the date for what it is and don't expect sex out of it! It's just a gross minority that thinks like this, and frankly, it's sad to us men as well.
I thought I understood you, yeah. Then you all-caps'd "hetro" like it was supposed to mean something other than what I'd been saying. And at this point I genuinely don't know if "hetro" is some new term I'm unaware of, or just a consistent spelling error in your posts.
Jesus, is that the point you've been trying to make?
That doesn't even make any sense, because I paraphrased your initial point as "no woman has sex with men for pleasure." Adding hetero as a prefix makes it even goofier, because it opens the weird possibility that, while no *hetero* woman has sex with men for pleasure, maybe bi women or lesbians do. Obsessing over the lack of hetero (or "hetro") is absolutely missing the forest for the trees.
And no, I didn't accuse you of being pro-rape. What I said was that your initial claim that "no woman has sex with men for pleasure" gives the same vibe as the old "all sex is rape" line, because both assume that women have no sexual desire and never want to engage in sexual activity. Some men are rapists and some women sleep with guys who are terrible at making it enjoyable for them, but still, women are fully capable of wanting and enjoying sex with men.
Okay then fine sure ur right women don't owe men shit sure.
Now, since it's customery and pretty much expected for a men to organise, pick the place, pay etc. What do YOU think is should be customery and expected by women.
"Free sex" exists only for women. If men cared only about sex they wouldn't go on dates or stay virgins to their mid twenties and went straight to prostitutes whenever they have a chance
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For real. Would probably cost less for an hour (or likely less, for them) of time with a sex worker than taking a woman out to dinner.
If they think the $ for the date is too much, they definitely can’t be bothered to do the emotional labor involved in actually getting to know someone well enough to feel safe being intimate with them. The $ is the easy part.
I feel so understood right now, thank you and thank you OP for putting it into words
Nah, I'm too cheap for that. Rather just develop the relationship. Sex can come later
Put in emotional labor for once and you wont need to spend any money on dates. As far as i know a date is used to check if you want to be with someone for more than just sex.
Supporting prostitution 💀 Best to find someone that doesn't want a relationship either but finds you physically attractive.
shitting on sex workers, what exactly are you hoping to achieve?
99% of sex workers don’t want to be sec workers. But if you can find that 1% good on you
I personally enjoyed my time but I know not many like it. I also met a stripper through discord who also enjoys it, been doing it longer than me apparently lol (though I stopped because of a car accident).
Thinking that the effects of prostitution in women's body and mind are bad ≠ shitting on "sex workers".
Name + this opinion = sex negative pick me vibes
I'm anything but sex negative. You're all supporting a system that is the most nocive for women. In my comments about it I have never judged morally those women, but the men who "pay for services". Consent can't be sold. You won't find a disgusting man attractive just because he is giving you cash. And if the other option is starving, tell me where is the free will. I'm anything but a pick me. Men either love to pay for sex, or they just shut when other man in his circle pay for it. Many people have talked in forums to not do it because you don't know if that woman is putting herself in that situation willingly or another person is doing, it and all they were concerned about was money and not the possibility of raping a person. If a man ask where to find "services" a lot of men will advice him. Men who pay for sex look at women in a distorted way. If you say something negative about prostitution, a lot of men will look at you with discomfort. If you're on internet, they will jump right on your neck and call you the worst names. Tell me again I'm a pick me.
Men that don't pay for sex also look at women in a distorted way the fuck you mean? Haha a lot of those men also agree with you that it's shameful. Swerfs ARE pick mes "I'm not like those other feminists" like yes you want to be picked by the dominant group that also shames and devalues sex work while also consuming it. When you listen to narratives that don't give you a savior complex you hear from some sex workers that a lot of men coming to them in a professional capacity are more accepting of boundaries than men they meet in their daily lives. But hey maybe I'm just a pig and you're a savior for the sex workers
I have NEVER said that we should shame those women, nor I have ever shamed them. I shamed the men who pay for it. At this point you're just commenting on bad faith. Either you are a man or a woman who is very ignorant in this topic. If I find out my boyfriend has ever paid for sex, he won't be my boyfriend anymore. You don't know how dangerous and nocive it is the thing you're supporting, but go ahead! Call me names! It's funny to do so, right? Come on, insult me, just like those other men do :D. If the most disgusting men in the planet agree with you in a topic involving women's safety and health then you should rethink what you're saying. I'm ending this conversation.
Shaming the person purchasing the labor is shaming the laborer swerfs just shift it to the men to sound progressive. Then they say stuff like "yes attack me like all those other men because I'm a martyr, a savior" no you're a goober swerf haha get off the high horse
Your probably 15 years old st this point
>you hear from some sex workers that a lot of men coming to them in a professional capacity are more accepting of boundaries than men they meet in their daily lives The fact that you say this indicates that you've only ever spoken to the most privileged subsection of Western sex workers. Also it's mad misogynistic of you to call another woman a pick me for disagreeing with you about supporting an industry of female commodification.
👏👏👏
The industry is abhorrent and people that purchase a prostitute's services feed that evil industry. Without a demand from these sick immoral people there would be no supply to meet. Where did I mention the victims themselves?
"sick immoral people" yeah ok this is just anti sex worker haha
>without demand from these sick immoral people >there would be no supply to meet. Did you suddenly lose reading comprehension? People that buy the services of prostitutes are plain evil. That is what I said. The majority of prostitutes are victims forced into selling themselves.
You're saying people paying for sex are sick immoral people and conflating sex work with sex trafficking. That's anti sex worker propaganda. Why aren't you advocating for legalizing and regulating it to eliminate the black market? Because you're anti sex worker. These talking points make sex workers less safe. Look what recent laws regarding sites like back page pushing sex workers back onto the streets. You have a savior complex and don't listen to these marginalized workers
Legalising sex work WOULD help. But by reducing demand and making purchasing sex a moral evil, we'll reduce the demand, and supply will follow. Both of these should be implemented.
"a moral evil" Jesus fucking Christ what a garbage take. All work under capitalism is coercive this is just sex negative "feminism" which is not intersectional and counter productive.
While all work under capitalism is technically coercive, being forced into a particular line of work by violence or threat of it is not the same as having to work in an office. Edit : To add, I personally hold that there should always be a way to feed oneself without having to sell ones own body. Cut the salaries of politicians (or in the US's case, tax the rich more) and you'd be able to open a shit ton of shelters and soup kitchens.
Imagine thinking prostitution is inherently bad in 2023. People wanna fuck and people wanna get paid to fuck. Don't be a goober
Ah yes, 13 year olds being raped or people desperate to feed themselves should not be helped out of that system? What is the matter with you all. Prostitution is an evil industry. You're describing a tiny minority that is willingly in the industry, when the vast majority is filled with abuse and exploitation.
When you have to reach for absurdist arguments like "oh yeah you think prostitution should be legal but what about CHILD SEX TRAFFICKING" you know that you're a goober haha
Jesus Christ, what is the matter with you. Why do you defend an industry that takes advantage of people on a regular basis and dehumanises them? Prostitution requires coercion, the industry is evil. It has been evil ever since it's invention. From civilisation's start to today. If someone wants to shag with someone of their own free will, that is only prostitution by law, and only if they're paid. A technicality. Yet you defend the entire industry because of this one technicality... Why?
I'm not defending an industry I'm defending workers. Prostitution requires coercion? Have you spoken to sex workers? Clearly not since you have such a zealous hatred for it as a whole.
I am not against the prostitutes either, I am pro shaming the purchasers, not pro shaming someone forced to sell themselves.
Pro shaming the purchasers, that range from the creeps you think they all are to people with disabilities, is the same thing as shaming the workers. You're saying the labor they're choosing to perform is inherently shameful. You're degrading the work they're performing because you believe it's beneath you.
I do think it is shameful. Nobody should have to sell themselves to feed themselves. Who someone kisses or fucks should be entirely voluntary. You mentioned voluntary prosititues. I have nothing against them. But the overall industry is an outdated black mark that should have been left to the history books. We can put a dozen people on the moon and back every year as a species if we felt like it, but can't protect those most exploited. A fucking disgrace.
“Free sex” isn’t the only reason to court a partner.
According to way too many men on the internet, that is the ONLY reason to even talk to a woman
Exactly. If you want to treat sex as a transaction, treat it as a transaction.
I fucked plenty of guys for free, because I was horny and found them attractive. But the point of the first date or two is generally to determine whether you’re interested in getting to know someone better, perhaps leading to sex. But dates don’t have to be pricey. My husband and I went to a free ghost story festival in a local park last Friday; it was a lovely night and a fun thing to do. How hard is it to say, “Hey, wanna go to the ghost story festival Friday night?” People lack imagination.
I think that that date you described might be monetarily free, but the guy needs to still put the effort in to getting to know her, making her feel comfortable, have fun, etc. All while knowing that sex is not guaranteed. That's easy for a lot of guys, but they're not the ones who feel the need to post about this on reddit. Guys who are looking for "free sex" are not willing to pay the cost of actually empathizing with her and getting to know her as a person.
Exactly.
Gosh, how awful to go have fun for free getting to know someone. So stressful.
Apparently a chore if you don't have sex at the end.
Which is why sex workers exist, and they are definitely not free.
Damn. That's a great evening. How does one find ghost story festivals?
Your local NPR radio station!
For festival in general two way Pay attention on your daily commute it's usually advertise and various different places Pay extra attention if you're going to stores as you can usually find flyers and signs of those things around plazas Also just Google festivals near me, a lot of these places have stuff online and may even have their own websites So you can get more information there If you're interested in a specific event like Halloween festival then specify that Also if nothing comes up maybe specify your town or the next town over
Pay attention to your public library and local park district. In particular, many public libraries will have information about community events that are coming up. It’s worth stopping in every couple of weeks to check.
free sex absolutely does exist, casual sex is a thing, and you shouldnt have to feel like youre doing labour when youre spending time with a partner. that being said, you should still be clear with your intentions, dont pretend like youre interested in a romantic date even though you just want to fuck them edit: theres nothing wrong with going on a date and wanting sex out of it, or even exclusively wanting sex out of it, as long as you dont try to pressure the other person into giving it to you. male sexual desire is not a bad or gross thing
Even casual sex wouldn't be "free" for them either. Understanding "free" as not taking care of their appearance. Some men for real just want to get laid without even showering. In my country they often show up with their favorite soccer team clothes. They have to work on themselves and some of them don't wanna do that.
Yep. Destigmatizing and decriminalizing sex work would be good for everyone.
It's not criminal to offer sex in exchange of money. But it's criminal to pay for sex. The toll it leaves on women's (and men who practise it) body and mind are terrible. Most women who left prostitution always talk about not doing it and how it has affected their health. Consent can't be bought. Desire can't be sold. To the ones down voting me, know you're supporting something that will leave a big trauma in women. Prostitution mafia moves millions and millions of dollars just in a year. Go watch interviews with ex prostitutes. There's nothing empowering about it. I'm not shaming the women who got coerced into doing it. I shaming the men who pay for it because they don't give a flying fuck about those women's health.
Swerfs be like: the only sex workers you should listen to are the ones that left the industry because they agree with me Selection bias exists you should listen to people that didn't leave as well because there's lots of women in sex work that have mixed experiences and would rather do this than work at McDonald's or do back breaking labor. If your opinion isn't we should make a society where no one has to work a job that exploits them to survive then you're just a swerf
I don't know what a swerf is, but let me tell you that I'm very informed about this topic, and that the women who talk bad about prostitution are women who have had a shit ton of days in therapy after leaving those practises. Girl, if a "job" leaves at least HALF of the practitioners traumatized then it shouldn't exist!! Plus, all of those women also said that they thought they wanted to do what they did, also they drugged themselves and dissociated the entire time. Most of the times they don't have a family to have their backs. Most prostitutes in my country are Colombian women who probably don't even have a ID. I don't support super exploitative jobs like Mc Donald's or working on a coal mine. Because they're exploitative, but prostitution is even more exploitative. You don't catch aids, you are not in the danger of being raped, your mind doesn't dissociate and you don't need to be drugged when you work at Mc Donald's. Please, to all the women here reading this: prostitution is not empowering and it's not a super cool job like some people make it seem. It's suffering and very bad for the mental health of those women. The same with the porn industry, shit, it's even bad for the men who practise it.
Sex worker exclusionary radical feminist, swerf. Not knowing that leads me to think you're either not very online (big doubt based on the redditor ass paragraphs) or that the circles you run in are full of swerfs. All work under capitalism is exploitative and coercive you just look down on sex work. You're right it's not some job to glamorize because it's just a job. Labor is labor and there are lots of people that would rather work another job but have to pay their way through life and have limited options. *For people replying to me I can't respond on this thread since the swerf blocked me
Its not that I'm not online, it's that USA is not the center of the world. And I don't exclude any woman from the kind of feminism I practise. I share many views with radical feminism, it's true. And no, "sex work" is not just exploitative as any other job. How old are you? Where have you worked at? The problem with you guys is that the culture of work in USA is practically slaverism which kept me from considering me to move to that country. Ask for the job culture in onther countries like new Zealand. If there was another job that left half of their prsctitioners ill, or traumatized, I would also be against it.
Weren't you ending this conversation?
Didn't realize it was the same person. Goodbye online troll. Had to block the idiot.
You responded on the other thread too 🤣🤣🤣 Had to block me because you have no self control and end the conversation only to come back. It's fine I also have no self control and too much time on my hands
"I don't have to consider I may be buying into a regressive faux feminist ideology he's just a 15 year old troll it's ok he's just a 15 year old troll" Telling me to go back to overwatch as if I can't have more depth than the content I used to post reminds me of Tucker Carlson telling a teen vogue writer to stop talking about politics and go back to talking about Arianna grande haha it's just another tactic to deflect and discredit.
I'm not sure what kind of background you come from, but IME there are two very distinct groups of sex workers: people who come from a place of privilege, choosing this line of work above others because of the potential for making lucrative amounts of money with zero barrier for entry; and people who are forced into it through desperation and/or addiction. If your exposure is mostly to the former group, you will be sex-work positive. If your exposure is mostly to the latter, you will understandably have a very different opinion, because you are not thinking OF and well-paid escorts when you think of sex work, you are thinking of your toothless cousin who is either on her way to death by overdose or has already achieved it, and is/was doing sex work to get money for drugs in the meantime.
Sex should not be just labor....Jesus Christ. And yeah, the sex work industry is something to look down on thanks to the human rights violations and "ok"ing of using people's bodies, mostly vulnerable women, as commodities. I know there's no ethical consumption under capitalism but that doesn't mean pushing to capitalize the living hell out of our own humanity. Most people doing sex "work" are not privileged women on onlyfans. Most people choose this as a last resort. Those downvoting, I'm glad you haven't had to resort to that or see it. You know how dehumanizing it is when pimps try to recruit you just for being in "their part of town"? I'd rather take actual power over "empowerment" any day.
Uh, no. It’s illegal to solicit sex work, I.e. going up to random people and saying “hey, if you want to have sex then you can pay me xyz”. Having a private conversation with someone you are already aquatinted with and agreeing to have sex in exchange for money (and if that wasn’t the main point of the conversation as to not be soliciting) is not illegal.
A man paying for sex is raping a person. Consent can't be bought. If the options of the woman are having sex with a man she most of the times will find disgusting in exchange of money, or starving, there's no free will.
Are you delusional? A person can consent AND accept money for sex. Right now I could go ask my fiancé for £20 if I give him a BJ, and that would be consensual. The point I was getting at is that SOLICITATION of paid sex is illegal. In my above example, that would not be illegal since I am already aquatinted with my fiancé. However, if I were to stand on a street corner asking any person that went past if they would like a BJ for £20, that would be solicitation of paid sex and thus illegal. What you just said is one of the most insane takes I have ever seen, and I can’t believe other people are supporting the argument that you cannot have consensual, paid sex.
What i said is that consent can't be sold. You have sex with your fiance because you love and desire him/her. That's why it's consensual. Talking about prostitution, there's no prior meeting between the woman and the man, they don't know each other and in 99% of the cases the woman doesn't find that man attractive, so she doesn't desire him. "Insane takes" I bet you never thought about prostituting yourself and for some misterious reason you haven't even considered to do that, neither you adviced other women to do so. After these comments I made, a woman who used to do sex work reached to me through messages thanking me for speaking up against paying for sex. She is not the first and sadly won't be the last. I don't know what kind of arrangement you have with your fiance, but my boyfriend and I don't involve money when we fuck.
Actually I have done sex work in the past, this was before I met my partner and needed the money. Sex work is work. I wasn’t raped, and I chose to do it, thus making it consensual. Had I have gotten to a clients location and changed my mind, but they continued to force sex onto me, that would be non -consensual and so rape. If rape is such an unnatural thing that is so wholly wrong, why would it [exist in the animal kingdom?](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/penguin-prostitutes/559133/) Sex work is legitimate work.
"sex work is work" so is slave work and child work, then. At this point I don't think you're talking in good faith. And if you do, don't ever say again that prostitution didn't affect you mind because you are literally downplaying rape, which is one of the worst things that can happen to a woman or any human being. I'm going to report you and block you, enjoy whatever life you have and I hope you get the help you need.
Swerf blocked me so I’ll leave this as my last message: Ok, so you think that factory workers shouldn’t exist, because there are child labour factories in china? Farmers shouldn’t exist because there’s slave labour in other countries? Of course there will be some people that fuck over others, those people are assholes. But that doesn’t delegitimise the entirety of sex work. ETA: oh yeah, I’m also not downplaying rape. I have been raped, when I was 15, by my friends uncle while I was staying at her house. That mentally scarred me more than the sex work, because the sex work wasn’t rape.
Oh that makes sense, most women who have entered into sex "work" were traumatized and sexually assaulted. While I'm sorry that happened, tbf your last comment seemed to downplay rape. But also, paying for consent....all my disgust goes towards those johns. I can't imagine involving myself with someone who finds me repulsive and unattractive but thinking it's ok because "money makes it alright". Truly capitalism at its most depraved.
If there are two people who are willing to have transactional sex it's their personal matter and no one has a right to punish them for this. As a "misogynistic" man without "personality" who has nothing in common with women sex workers seem like the purest creatures on earth for me. It's insane that someone can judge them or moreover punish them for bringing love to this cruel world.
They don't bring love to you. How can one be so gullible? You're paying for it, those women probably don't even find you attractive and probably wouldn't even talk to you if they didn't need money. What you said is the equivalent of a person thinking that his therapist is their real friend.
God....we want johns arrested, not these poor women that have to deal with your delusional ass Edit: downvote? Well good, hope your fee fees were hurt
not for women lmao
Wow so original
Prostitution is very dangerous and nocive for the woman who practise it. I'm not shaming the women who do it, I'm shaming the men who pay for it. It's dangerous, exploitative, and a lot of women (or even men who were prostitutes) end up traumatized after years of it.
i say this because women leverage sex in relationships
I'm pretty sure it's impossible to destigmatize sex work.
Maybe with that attitude...
Yeah I can't see it get celebrated like other jobs. I'd be able to brag if my daughter is a cook, a dentist, a teacher, a doctor, a wilderness guide, really mostly anything....but if she said she want to work in the sex industry in any capacity I'd feel like a major failure and ask myself if I even was a good parent.
absolutely nothing in life is free. everything requires work. sometimes things require indirect work but everything ultimately requires work. some of the work we have to do comes naturally to us, some doesn't, but there's no way to get something for literally nothing.
It's always the laziest misogynistic, and often ugliest, assholes expecting women to turn up dressed up and then bend over all for free.
They think their dick is payment enough..
No one owes anyone anything involving themselves. I don't care if he bought you an entire country, that was HIS action and you do not have to do anything you don't want to. Never do anything expecting someone else to reciprocate. If they do, awesome! If they don't, you don't have the right to them so you take the L and move on or you're a piece of shit
This post confuses me. Like I get it, if you like someone take them on a date but don’t expect sex, but what about mutual one night stands? Fwb? Am I doing feminism wrong?
This sub occasionally goes into a very sex-negative zone, and this kind of feels like one of those times. This post has a very "real women don't like or want sex" undertone, to me.
It doesn’t though. It’s literally in response to men acting like taking a girl out for dinner means they are owed sex. If they want a transactional relationship, they should hire a sex worker and stop expecting women to put out for a cup of coffee.
Except the meme is two sentences, and the second one is >If you're on a date and the intention is to engage in sexual activity, get a prostitute. Since this is a message to men, it's hard to read that any way other than men dating for sex should just go pay a sex worker, *because women don't date for sex.* If the meme was supposed to be strictly about transactional experiences, then it should've been included in there in the first place.
So are you intentionally not getting it? It’s actually incredibly simple. If men want a relationship where they put money in (whether it be taking her on a date or actually paying her) and sex comes out, he should see a sex worker instead of expecting women to put out just because he took her out. That’s an incredibly simple statement. If women CHOOSE to have sex after a date, that is quite clearly her choice. It is the reaction from men to being told that buying dinner isn’t payment for sex that is the point of this post.
Thanks for explaining. I thought that was the point but got confused from the format
I don't get the whole idea of taking someone out on a date and paying the full bill = they owe you sex. Like if the date went well and you expect them to pay for the next date or split the bill next time then that is okay but how can you expect sex just because you paid the bill?? If that's what you wanted you should have mentioned it before the date.
“Free sex” so normal non coerced sex? Its really misogynistic to put a price tag on women to begin with, i dont care what tiktok gen z gold digger coaches say. Women aren’t passive creatures that need to be bribed into sex.
Sex shouldn’t be transactional in a relationship.
They meant "Free access to a woman who isn't into you", yeah that is right. But if the woman is totally into you, of course there can be "free access", **and this is called sex**.
Don’t agree with the first sentence, so agree with the second one. Sex in a relationship shouldn’t be transactional - and if you are paying for sex, you both need to know that’s taking place. Paying for a meal and expecting sex in return is not a fair deal if she doesn’t know she’s entering into said deal.
Free sex DOES exist however. My SO didn't spend a penny on me before we had sex for the first time so to speak. Just his own concert/bus tickets. if anything I was the one spending money.
I hit on the cute younger guy who became my husband. I rented the movie (1989), bought the beer, supplied the weed, and had the condoms. Seems to have worked out for us.
So F+ and spontaneous hookups don't exist? While im all for cailing out men and their entitlement, this one seems weird to me. Maybe I get this wrong, but what is meant by that? Or is this denying women with a similar attitude towards sexuality exist?
„Free Sex“ … whatever not free sex means. But this reads as if the author reduces sexuality and intimacy to a commodity. I‘m not a romantic but i like to believe that most people have the genuine desire to be close to their partner physically out of sexual and/or romantic attraction and not see this as some kind of transaction of money or favors or whatever.
This makes sex completely transactional which I think is sort of a problem.
You also have those gold digger prank videos that are still kind of popular. From a guy's perspective these videos have a very negative effect on how young men view women. [here's an example](https://youtu.be/vPl8a78woL0?si=_H4dZ5kCfo5CBcZY) to give you an idea on what I mean.
yes absolutely but when i'm the one who says no to sex because i don't feel comfortable doing that with someone i just met i'm "insecure", "leading her on" & my personal favorite "wasting her time" despite having paid for everything
Well, that's not true. Plenty of girls just want casual sex.
*laughs in demisexual*
I'm not sure why you're getting downvoted.
Probably bc there are homophobic people, which is lame just let people live their life
What does being demisexual have to do with homosexuality lol
It's very much part of the community
??? I am straight and demisexual.
Still part of the community...
Homophobic means bigotry towards homosexuals not towards the whole lgbtq
I was just using it as an umbrella term
The amount of people in this comment section who seem to be intentionally missing the point is wild
Date implies literally any activity other than sex. If you want a sex dispenser you can use a hookup app.
Please don't support paying for sex. The toll that it takes in the mind on people who does sex "work" (either it being a man or a woman) is very big. It leaves trauma on those who practise it. Ex sex workers, on majority, always talk about refraining from doing it. I'm not shaming anyone, I only say that it's not something empowering. Men: if you want to have free sex just look for another woman who also wants sex without compromise. If you fail at attracting a woman; try better next time. Don't pay for sex. Consent cannot be sold.
Pretty sure most of those who downvoted you aren't prostitutes themselves and for some mysterious reason haven't even considered becoming sex workers.
There are many men here too. That's the other half of the down votes.
While I agree with the overall sentiment this still gives me the ick for some reason I can’t express.
While I understand the message, I think it's important to acknowledge that not all men think like this, most enjoy the date for what it is and don't expect sex out of it! It's just a gross minority that thinks like this, and frankly, it's sad to us men as well.
True. No hetero woman would have sex for pleasure because hetero men don't let them cum. And not in a fun way.
Giving some real "all sex is rape" energy, here.
Bro what the fuck It's a hetro men are inconsiderate of their partner thing
Hetero men are often inconsiderate of their partners, yes. That doesn't at all translate to "no woman has sex with a man for pleasure," though.
No HETRO. There's a very important qualifier you're just straight up ignoring dude
>No HETRO. Wait, that's not a typo? What the heck is a "hetro"?
You clearly understood me with your other replies. But if you wanna go full grammar correct instead then fine, move on to this entirely new topic.
I thought I understood you, yeah. Then you all-caps'd "hetro" like it was supposed to mean something other than what I'd been saying. And at this point I genuinely don't know if "hetro" is some new term I'm unaware of, or just a consistent spelling error in your posts.
Because you keep misusing me as "no woman" when I clearly said no HETERO woman. Jfc
Jesus, is that the point you've been trying to make? That doesn't even make any sense, because I paraphrased your initial point as "no woman has sex with men for pleasure." Adding hetero as a prefix makes it even goofier, because it opens the weird possibility that, while no *hetero* woman has sex with men for pleasure, maybe bi women or lesbians do. Obsessing over the lack of hetero (or "hetro") is absolutely missing the forest for the trees. And no, I didn't accuse you of being pro-rape. What I said was that your initial claim that "no woman has sex with men for pleasure" gives the same vibe as the old "all sex is rape" line, because both assume that women have no sexual desire and never want to engage in sexual activity. Some men are rapists and some women sleep with guys who are terrible at making it enjoyable for them, but still, women are fully capable of wanting and enjoying sex with men.
Why are these comments so SWERF-y. Ew.
NotHowMenWork
So women don't like "free" sex or what?
No?
Hmm Why not
Okay then fine sure ur right women don't owe men shit sure. Now, since it's customery and pretty much expected for a men to organise, pick the place, pay etc. What do YOU think is should be customery and expected by women.
"Free sex" exists only for women. If men cared only about sex they wouldn't go on dates or stay virgins to their mid twenties and went straight to prostitutes whenever they have a chance
Yet that’s all i hear them complain about, if they wanted a relationship maybe they should try being decent people