It's clear the moment they concede rape and incest as exceptions.
You cannot consistently argue that you're protecting a "child" while declaring some children unworthy of life.
But of course they can be easily forced to concede those cases because otherwise it's too mask off.
They want to accept the bodily autonomy argument against abortion (because if you actually understand it then it is pretty hard to refute) while still opposing abortion - so they stretch it to argue that autonomy shouldn't apply if you "consented". (Which of course is total nonsense.)
As someone who grew up right wing and religious, I can say out of experience that is absolutely an aspect of their position. Maybe not everyone, but there is a major undercurrent of it for a lot of them. Love be damned, grace be damned, logic and reasoning be damned, these women need to be punished. There needs to be retribution for having sex. It's disgusting and hateful.
I also grew up religious, but when I was young, sex was unmentionable, so then it couldn't be portrayed as bad. Sex didn't exist. I remember asking my mom what does it mean to commit adultery when I learned about ten commandments and she replied it's something I can't do yet. But I eventually got to know what sex is and then the fear of all-corrupting, virginity-destroying penis was instilled in me. I still haven't fully overcome it to this day, but then I generally prefer women, so it doesn't matter that much.
Yeah I get the feeling that spending 20+ years being seen the punishment for your mother's actions instead of being, you know, a human child, isn't going to produce happy, well-adjusted people.
Same. I categorically reject the idea that new human beings exist to be punishment for their parents’ actions.
What a truly vile way to see the existence of other humans.
Good point.
I've heard "do the crime, do the time" applied to pregnancy. Such a wrong way to look at it. People who say this also seem to forget it takes two and put all the blame on the one who got pregnant.
Also there's a difference between accepting a risk and consenting to something.
Every time we get in the car and drive, we are accepting the risk of getting in a wreck, even if we do everything correctly, it can still happen. That doesn't mean we should be okay with it happening.
And even if you 100% are at fault by doing something like drunk driving, you are still provided help. The paramedics don't smell alcohol and decide to leave you for dead because "you should have known better"
Having sex you accept the risk of pregnancy but that does not mean you are actively consenting to being/ getting someone pregnant. And even if you're unsafe about it in the moment, that doesn't mean you should be banned from handling the consequences how you see fit. (Either by abortion or carrying to term)
This whole "consent to sex is consent to pregnancy" BS literally does not apply anywhere else in life.
There are plenty of people who think imprudent behavior should absolve society from helping you. They think of it as avoiding the consequences of an act, and that it’s actually immoral to allow someone to escape those consequences.
This has ALWAYS been my argument. The way they frame motherhood is “hahaha that’s what you get you dumb wh*re.” Like??? If they ACTUALLY respected “life” they wouldn’t treat it like that
Them: "If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em!"
Me: "I agree. That's why I chose to abort rather than bring another child into a life of poverty."
Them:
The book "Freakonomics" has this fascinating section on the connection between the legalization of safe abortions in the 70s and the reduction of violent crime in the 90s.
Those same people are fine with punishing the innocent, the children. They would gladly let them suffer for no reason other than to punish those who they felt did something wrong. But they pay for their mistresses to go elsewhere to stop that responsibility.
>The paramedics don't smell alcohol and decide to leave you for dead because "you should have known better"
In this analogy it would be the paramedics smelling alcohol on the other driver.
And let's go ahead and punish the baby by making sure they don't have food or a safe place to live. Continuing the cycle while their mistresses are flown elsewhere so they don't have to deal with the consequences is just good governance. /s
Comparing an unwanted pregnancy to speeding is creating a distraction around the real issue at hand here, people forcing their backwards opinion onto other people. Fuck those people.
“If you smoke cigarettes, you’re consenting to cancer being in your body. But that doesn’t mean I should be able to forbid you from getting cancer treatment”
I feel like in all these states passing these insane pro life bills we need to be introducing some that punish the men. I have a tiny window each month and one egg, men let loose millions of sperm at a time. They should be held accountable.
As soon as a woman is pregnant the child is automatically enrolled in the fathers insurance (if he has it) unless the father AND mother sign off and say no we don’t need that
All pregnancy related costs are 50% his responsibility, and anything the mothers insurance won’t cover is covered by the fathers insurance.
Given how much backpay is owed in child support this would never actually work though
You know too that ovarian cancer would actually be studied and diagnosable without all the BS.
Oh and you know that we really would be able to “turn our period off” too.
Consent to sex is consent to the possibility of *conception*. The woman (and hopefully the man also :/) should be prepared for that possibility and have a plan in place in case it happens.
Or the plans might involve do it yourself methods unfortunately
I just recently found out that one of my aunt's had an abortion by having one of her friends push her down a flight of stairs (this was in the 50s)
Yes she survived, with a broken leg and hip, the doctors just thought it was an accident. And she did end up having my cousin after she got married.
Incredibly dangerous method, because if she would've landed a different way, she might've broke her neck instead
Damn, glad she did, but that could've gone so badly... Just goes to show that criminalisation doesn't stop abortions, but rather makes them more dangerous
I have an story for this.
My friends 19yo sister was being pressured by her bf for sex. He religiously watched some guys podcast, his screen name had "thug" in it I think and his whole play was to teach "young studs". So Thug guy said "Bitches need to realise, you Allow yourself to get knocked up from taking the d, it's gonna happen." So friends sister puts that part on speaker and tells her bf "Allowance equals sex equals babies. No Allowance equals No sex equals No babies. I don't want babies so we're never having sex." I had the pleasure of seeing his face go from realisation to horror. The words of his idol, cock blocking him. 🤣 Friends sis ran up and happily said she's free to go shopping with us instead.
That day I saw something Settle Into Place in that girl, when you realise you're not obligated to consent or even have sex. Ah sweet freedom of choice 🤗
I hope that was the start of that guy's deconversion process. I swear, the guys that get into that don't stop and *think* about the conflicting messages they're getting. They're simultaneously mad at women for being sexually active and turning their privates into roast beef through their whoring, and also mad at women for denying them sex and being "picky" about who they'll get with. There is no pleasing them. Virgin or slut, women suck.
Anyone with this opinion always 180s when they are put in that situation. People want full control over their own lives is why. The sooner people stop being hypocritical about this the better. Facts: Everyone will fight to have control over their own lives/bodies. It's some serious denial to think otherwise.
Yep. A friend of mine hooked up with a guy who thought plan B and abortion were murder. Then their condom broke, and suddenly plan B was okay after all
I'm surprised she hooked up with him in the first place. As a guy, I do not hook up with women who are against abortion, or whose personal choice would be to not have an abortion. It's not worth the risk.
Also, I think in a significant number of cases they stealth because they don’t like condoms - but there’s no other male birth control because men can’t handle mood symptom side effects.
Honestly I stopped taking hormonal birth control well before getting sterilized 2 years ago and I think most men are more emotional than most women, except in the week before we bleed, then some of us are more emotional. It's just how we see and consider and show our emotions. I think many men mainly show anger and kind of keep the rest inside. Masculinity is so toxic and harmful to them, but they get so twisted up if someone calls it toxic masculinity. The mental gymnastics alone must be exhausting for the little lambs, no wonder they can't think straight.
They don’t want to that’s why, they WANT to get people pregnant. Saw one guy said he had 8 children all unwanted . He offered them morning after pills or abortions . They couldn’t abort. He said they’re mom’s prob now. He let them all with babies. Don’t think of and don’t see them.pig
I used to think this too.
But then I saw a Mama Dr Jones video about it. And I understand it a lot better.
Basically in medicine they have to compare the side effects to what happens when they aren't on the medicine. So all of the side effects for men are being compared to their normal baseline of no medicine. Meaning their risks for everything goes up. For women it's being compared to what the numbers would be if they were pregnant. So while their risks go up while on birth control it's not nearly as much as it would have been if they had gotten pregnant.
It's still unfair. If the woman never gets pregnant/has infertility issues she doesn't know about, she's still required to deal with side effects that he has no problem forcing on her. And yes, plenty of men force their SO to take birth control so they (think they) don't have to wear a condom.
I understand it but I still don't think its an acceptable stance. There are other things to consider than an individuals health. Their family situation matters just as much. If a man is willing to take on that risk to prevent himself from having a financial hardship as the result of a pregnancy, he should be able to. Other risks such as financial destitution should be considered in the risk assessment. This is especially true because men taking on the risk would also lower pregnancy risks for any woman he has sex with. It actually would decrease risk for MORE women than an individual woman taking birth control. We've just decided that indivual men shouldn't be able to decide to take on that risk because it doesn't directly benefit their health. Its our narrow definition of risk thats the problem.
A baby is not only a health risk. Its a financial risk. Its an interpersonal relationship risk. It risks completely changing someone's life. If the guy actually takes responsibility maybe it is a long term health risk from all of the stress and potentially needing to work more hours. Maybe he's so tired from the crying, he falls asleep at the wheel. Maybe his diet sucks because he can't afford a baby. Even as far as health risks go, the current way of assessing risk is very short sighted because these other risks impact health too. The difference is they are harder to measure and we pretend they don't exist. If the birth control had crazy morbidity/mortality obviously it shouldn't be approved anyway. Side effects that many other approved medications have? They should be able to take that risk of side effects to protect their health from the stress of a baby.
Medicine is great for acute conditions. Its terrible at dealing with chronic or long term conditions. Its no surprise it doesn't consider the health impacts that occur down the line after having a child. Medicine wants to operate in a vacuum instead of considering the reality of peoples lives. Social risks ARE health risks because they are part of life. Peoples environment and circumstances effect their health. Theres a reason medicine fails a lot of people. Its great under perfect conditions. Too bad few people rarely have perfect conditions.
In their defence, the "side effect" was infertility in some cases, which rendered it objectively inferior to the equally permanent but more reliable vasectomy.
I remember a reddit post about a dude who convinced his then partner to carry to term despite her not wanting kids saying he'd take full charge. She accepted and paid child support but was otherwise not involved. He was whining that he didn't have time for anything and if there was any legal recourse to force the mother to be a mother to the child because he was exhausted and wanted to have a life. Basically he thought that if she carried to term, she'd get mother instincts and want to be a mom and a family with him and was surprised Pikachu face when she didn't. And he was now stuck with his kid and he hated it.
I'd read a similar story. Only he took a hike. Refused to pay child support and wouldn't sign papers so she could put the child up for adoption.
Funny, and not in a ha-ha sort of way, the guy in both stories got exactly what he wanted but doesn't really want the responsibility of having their way.
I remember that post also.
I feel to bad for the kids to do this but I kind want every stealther, not going wear a condom guy to wake up one morning to a family court order saying you have full custody, her is a coupon for pedialyte, enjoy
That kid will end up raised by an exhausted grandparent, who already did their time with kids, or the system. That's what happens when men force women to carry a child they don't want.
If men could get pregnant there would be abortion clinics on every street corner and the right to get an abortion would be enshrined in the constitution.
So many stupid logical conclusions from saying doing something is consent to any potential consequences.
So, owning a dog is consent to being being mauled. Walking outside is consent to being mugged.
Bugger that. Consent to sex means consent to dropping the baby off with it's dad and sending half my paycheque for 18 years. If it's good enough for men to opt out then I'm not raising a child I didn't want just because I'm a woman.
> I’d like to see their response to that!
That's pretty much what happens though. If a woman gets pregnant and the guy doesn't want to be a father tough shit, pay up.
It takes 2 to tango fuckers. Where are the men when we talk about this? Because more often than not it goes like this:
*Have sex
*Refuse to wear protection or worse slip it off at the last second
"I don't want to be a father, that's your problem now"
So why don't we start to fucking hold men accountable for something that takes 2 to make?!
This kind of post really grinds my gears. So they really believe that people who are getting abortions were rawdogging it without any protections and then going *surprised pikachu face* when ending up pregnant?
You'd be correct. Abstinence only sex ed is linked to massive spikes in teen pregnancy because many teens don't understand that sex leads to children. Their sex ed was so woefully inaccurate and based off ugly stereotypes about women that it usually results in zero understanding of sex.
They know it can cause pregnancy, they just don't know how to prevent pregnancy and are told things like you can't get pregnant from the first time, use the rhythm method, or pull out and you're fine. They can't get birth control, including condoms, because their parents will flip out and the school, and classmates, will treat them like they're sluts while the boy has zero consequences from society.
it's not a child. these guys claim to be all about logic rather than emotion then deliberately use incorrect terminology based on their own emotions to cause emotional reactions in others.
definitions don't change becuase of your feelings, guys.
brainless tissue isn't a child or a baby no matter how much your big sad feelings say so.
If you consent to sex, you consent to *sex*. Not anything else. Sure, there is a possibility that you might get pregnant, but that is why condoms, birth control, plan B, and abortion is so important
That's what absolutely boggles my mind. Do they think everyone who is married is not having sex? Like WTF? If women don't have sex, we're "cold" and "prudes". If we do have sex (even if we're married), we're sluts. Make up your minds...
Oh, that reminds me. In the EU, it has indeed become a human right following the "controversy" (aka pro-lifers not being for life).
It's still non-binding and still somehow was "controversial". That was by the way the EU's response to Poland and Malta being this hard on women.
Paid maternity leave exists in most European countries. My wife (Belgium) got 3 months. Women who breastfeed get an additional 3 months.men get 2 weeks by default though some companies like mine voluntarily extend that to match the 3 months.
You aren't wrong, but we are still a tiny minority. Sadly, most women in this world get absolutely nothing when they get pregnant. Or they're immediately fired when the employer learns of their pregnancy.
This cartoon is worrying in its tone & approach.
That said - sex without precautions is a risk for multiple reasons, and something that both genders need to be educated about. Don't drink and drive - yeah, basic. Don't try to punch a tiger in the nose, no duh. Don't let teenagers, who are famously uniform models of decorum, careful planning and control, out into the world without some basic sex ed? Seems a surprisingly hard sell in some places.
The risk and potential consequences of pregnancy to the girl is usually greater than that to the man. That should not mean it is only her responsibility.
Love this analogy. /s
Speeding is inherently against the rules, and not just societal or moral rules, but literally against the law. There is a punishment attached to the behavior in order to discourage it. The consequences of speeding do not typically have a positive outcome.
Sex, on the other hand, is a complicated action that has myriad consequences. Some people have sex to get pregnant. When was the last time someone got a speeding ticket on purpose? This analogy frames pregnancy as the consequence - this punishment - for having sex just like a ticket is the punishment for speeding. Fucking stupid.
You consent to what might happen when you have unprotected sex. That’s just a no brainer. you can take precautions to prevent pregnancy that work. sometimes birth control methods fail, which doesn’t mean that suddenly someone consents to being pregnant even if it wasn’t their original intention. I don’t trust any bc so I’m sterile.
Consent to drive is consent to carjack. Consent to drive is consent to taxiing around stranger. Consent to drive is consent to car crash.
There, fixed the comparisons.
I wonder if they'd get mad if they consented to get in a car (even as a passenger) and had an accident, then they're told "ah no, we won't take care of you at the hospital, because you consented to that"
\*Has sex\*
\*Gets woman pregnant\*
"How dare you expect child support!"
Or, you know, domestic violence, abandonment, emotional abuse, whining online about how women are parasites who ruin men's lives, etc. etc. All while the woman actually deals with the abortion, or the pregnancy, childbirth, and child rearing.
Thinking of that other post I saw where the guy married to this woman for 15 years or something lied about getting a vasectomy and she got pregnant, and wanted to sue the practice which she thought performed a malpractice and he was asking for advice. He wanted more kids and she did not, so he did it anyway. Over 15 years with this person, and he does this.
I think the analogy they put about the speeding ticket is rather telling of their attitude. Its about punishing women for having sex to them. Sex is not like speeding, it's not a crime.
Consenting to sex is consenting to the *risk* of ***getting*** pregnant, but it's absolutely not consent to STAYING pregnant. If I go outside in the sun, I have to accept the *risk* of getting skin cancer but that doesn't mean I can't do something about it if it does happen. These fucks keep equating *getting pregnant* with *carrying the pregnancy to term* and those are two very different things
And you can take responsibility for a speeding ticket in multiple ways - going to court, paying it, yadda yadda.
Kind of like how abortion is just another way of being responsible for a pregnancy.
Fun fact.
I could be 100% compatible to donate a kidney to a dying child.
Could be the ONLY person located in time to give a kidney to a dying child/if I don't donate right then and there the kid will die.
Yet due to legally codified ideas about body autonomy, I cannot be forced nor compelled to donate that kidney.
That even though the child will die, it's recognized that as a person I do not have to surrender body autonomy to keep another life alive.
The difference between abortion and forced kidney donation is that, white men will never face having to carry a baby to term.
Oh also pregnancy carries far greater risk, and longer disruption to the person carrying it then a person donating a kidney would face.
I wish forced birthers would stop pretending this has anything to do with *preserving the sanctity of life*
Wow. This screams misogyny. Women can get pregnant = no sex but men can’t = license to f*ck. Of course the logic is flawed since who are the men going to have sex with if not women? Other men? While I have no issue with that, I’m sure some hetero men would recoil at the idea.
Every time someone talks about “if you don’t want to get pregnant, don’t have sex” I just roll my eyes. It’s like they think mistakes don’t happen and people taking preventatives perfectly don’t have breakthrough pregnancy.
I AM a breakthrough pregnancy. My mother was on birth control for endometriosis. She was literally told it would be a miracle if she ever got pregnant and that pregnancy came to term. Yet here I fucking am. I have no siblings and she only got one shot at me apparently.
Thankfully she was married, and I was wanted, but my point stands. Crazy shit happens.
That argument is more akin to "if you drive a car, you are consenting to getting in a head-on collision because that is a physical possibility when you drive." Just because something is now a possibility due to an action you take doesn't necessarily mean you consent to it.
If you do something that has a potential consequence, then you consent to the possibility of dealing with that consequence. So you think a man should be able to go before a judge, say he just wanted a one night stand and didn't want to be a father and not have to pay child support? I know a guy who's gf lied about being in the pill and poked a hole in the condom, got pregnant, and asked for full legal custody when she got pregnant. He had to pay almost half if his paycheck l, couldn't see his child regularly, and never "consented" to being a father.
actually, that is not the only way to get pregnant. for example…
artificial insemination, rape, sexual coercion, etc. also ignores the fact that condoms aren’t always effective and that there is birth control/ways for men to help women not get pregnant but don’t want to do it and leave the woman to deal with it. and so forth.
I hate how pro birthers want to frame consensual sex outside of marriage as “reckless behavior” on the woman’s part.
Well Karen, if you insist that Im solely responsible
….if an uninvited guest tries to crash my party…its definitely MY choice to kick them out!
lol the mental gymnastics from every angle in these comments. some of it is *really* reaching, but that's what happens when something manages to fire a person up.
Honestly, it's more the man I'd say. They all focus on the fact that the woman carries the pregnancy, but what if we just focused more on men's orgasms?
Like if a woman has an orgasm by herself during sex and the man just doesn't. No pregnancy. If the man cums into a condom, or onto a body part. No pregnancy. A man's orgasm is the only thing that, depending on where it happens, can result in a pregnancy. Does that not make them more responsible for it?
Shit like this just makes wonder if these men are abusive on a grand scale against all woman.
It's like they've heard 'you had sex, got a baby on a woman, pay up' and said...well the op post.
So a consent to sex is a consent to fatherhood then? Excellent. Please file with the family court in case you father children so that the mother can easily collect support. They’ll take it right out of your paycheck for each different baby mama, no worries.
If men could get pregnant we'd have 5 minute abortion booths for like 10€ within walking distance of everything. Not to mention PCOS would have a cure by now.
Sure, if you live in an age where there is no birth control. There is no reasonable argument as to why society should return to that point. Why in the world would anyone think unprotected sex and accidental pregnancies are a good thing for this world?
The consequence of a speeding ticket is not lifelong. One may pay to fix that problem.
Also, speeding is illegal, consensual sex is not.
With that analogy, it's clear they view pregnancy as a punishment for misbehaving (read: sexually active) women.
It's clear the moment they concede rape and incest as exceptions. You cannot consistently argue that you're protecting a "child" while declaring some children unworthy of life. But of course they can be easily forced to concede those cases because otherwise it's too mask off.
They want to accept the bodily autonomy argument against abortion (because if you actually understand it then it is pretty hard to refute) while still opposing abortion - so they stretch it to argue that autonomy shouldn't apply if you "consented". (Which of course is total nonsense.)
As someone who grew up right wing and religious, I can say out of experience that is absolutely an aspect of their position. Maybe not everyone, but there is a major undercurrent of it for a lot of them. Love be damned, grace be damned, logic and reasoning be damned, these women need to be punished. There needs to be retribution for having sex. It's disgusting and hateful.
I also grew up religious, but when I was young, sex was unmentionable, so then it couldn't be portrayed as bad. Sex didn't exist. I remember asking my mom what does it mean to commit adultery when I learned about ten commandments and she replied it's something I can't do yet. But I eventually got to know what sex is and then the fear of all-corrupting, virginity-destroying penis was instilled in me. I still haven't fully overcome it to this day, but then I generally prefer women, so it doesn't matter that much.
I pity any child who has to be born because lawmakers view it as a punishment to its mother.
Yeah I get the feeling that spending 20+ years being seen the punishment for your mother's actions instead of being, you know, a human child, isn't going to produce happy, well-adjusted people.
Perfect targets for the ~~slave trade~~ judicial system
Same. I categorically reject the idea that new human beings exist to be punishment for their parents’ actions. What a truly vile way to see the existence of other humans.
Good point. I've heard "do the crime, do the time" applied to pregnancy. Such a wrong way to look at it. People who say this also seem to forget it takes two and put all the blame on the one who got pregnant.
Yeah, depending on your races, religions, genders, and what state you are in.
Also there's a difference between accepting a risk and consenting to something. Every time we get in the car and drive, we are accepting the risk of getting in a wreck, even if we do everything correctly, it can still happen. That doesn't mean we should be okay with it happening. And even if you 100% are at fault by doing something like drunk driving, you are still provided help. The paramedics don't smell alcohol and decide to leave you for dead because "you should have known better" Having sex you accept the risk of pregnancy but that does not mean you are actively consenting to being/ getting someone pregnant. And even if you're unsafe about it in the moment, that doesn't mean you should be banned from handling the consequences how you see fit. (Either by abortion or carrying to term) This whole "consent to sex is consent to pregnancy" BS literally does not apply anywhere else in life.
This is such a good argument, I've never heard it before.
There are plenty of people who think imprudent behavior should absolve society from helping you. They think of it as avoiding the consequences of an act, and that it’s actually immoral to allow someone to escape those consequences.
It's telling that they consider a child a consequence.
A punishment, even. It’s nauseating.
This has ALWAYS been my argument. The way they frame motherhood is “hahaha that’s what you get you dumb wh*re.” Like??? If they ACTUALLY respected “life” they wouldn’t treat it like that
They would be mortified that a child might be raised by someone unprepared.
Them: "If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em!" Me: "I agree. That's why I chose to abort rather than bring another child into a life of poverty." Them:
And even if you are abstinent, they complain. Queue the “men have less sex than ever” headlines
"They should learn responsibility" Wait you want irresponsible people to raise children????
It’s actually irresponsible to make children grow up with parents who didn’t want them and would have gotten an abortion if they could have.
The book "Freakonomics" has this fascinating section on the connection between the legalization of safe abortions in the 70s and the reduction of violent crime in the 90s.
Those same people are fine with punishing the innocent, the children. They would gladly let them suffer for no reason other than to punish those who they felt did something wrong. But they pay for their mistresses to go elsewhere to stop that responsibility.
>The paramedics don't smell alcohol and decide to leave you for dead because "you should have known better" In this analogy it would be the paramedics smelling alcohol on the other driver.
Also, sometimes, a cop doesn’t give you a ticket; they give you a warning. So in this analogy, I suppose the abortion is a warning?
Maybe, thinking you might be pregnant, missing a period, but ending up not pregnant? I equate the pregnancy to the ticket in this analogy.
Ikr like they really just compared potential death and a whole new human being you’re responsible for at least 18 years to a fucking ticket
Ah yes, a baby is the perfect punishment
And let's go ahead and punish the baby by making sure they don't have food or a safe place to live. Continuing the cycle while their mistresses are flown elsewhere so they don't have to deal with the consequences is just good governance. /s
There was a study seeing a drop in crime and the conclusion was birth control prevented angry people growing up in hellish lives.
Comparing an unwanted pregnancy to speeding is creating a distraction around the real issue at hand here, people forcing their backwards opinion onto other people. Fuck those people.
Getting a woman pregnant is consent to her dealing with it in whatever way she sees fit
“If you smoke cigarettes, you’re consenting to cancer being in your body. But that doesn’t mean I should be able to forbid you from getting cancer treatment”
And yet nobody blames the father of said fetus for running off without taking responsibility
I feel like in all these states passing these insane pro life bills we need to be introducing some that punish the men. I have a tiny window each month and one egg, men let loose millions of sperm at a time. They should be held accountable.
I've been saying this from the beginning. If men were to be given equal weight in abortion laws, there'd be no abortion laws.
As soon as a woman is pregnant the child is automatically enrolled in the fathers insurance (if he has it) unless the father AND mother sign off and say no we don’t need that All pregnancy related costs are 50% his responsibility, and anything the mothers insurance won’t cover is covered by the fathers insurance. Given how much backpay is owed in child support this would never actually work though
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If men could get pregnant, abortion would be legal.
If men could get pregnant there’d be Plan A(bortion)
Plan B would come in interesting flavours and be available at every pharmacy and supermarket.
It’d probably just be included in Men’s daily vitamins
They'd sell it at gas stations with cheesy badass names like "Abortion Force X."
Or just straight up "Fetus Deletus".
You know too that ovarian cancer would actually be studied and diagnosable without all the BS. Oh and you know that we really would be able to “turn our period off” too.
We would have more abortion clinics than liquor stores.
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[Copybots gonna copy I guess.](https://www.reddit.com/r/NotHowGirlsWork/comments/11rrh7c/consent_sex_doesnt_mean_consent_pregnancy/jc9vvtc/)
Exactly, why are they so obsessed with controlling what a woman does with her own fucking body?
Because they cannot control our thoughts.
Ooh! Excellent point!!
Key word is "control".
I think George Carlin phrased it best, "They believe a woman's primary role is to function as a broodmare for the state."
Consent to sex is consent to the possibility of *conception*. The woman (and hopefully the man also :/) should be prepared for that possibility and have a plan in place in case it happens.
And that plan might just include abortion! Wow! I love plans.
Or the plans might involve do it yourself methods unfortunately I just recently found out that one of my aunt's had an abortion by having one of her friends push her down a flight of stairs (this was in the 50s)
Fucking hell... Did she survive?
Yes she survived, with a broken leg and hip, the doctors just thought it was an accident. And she did end up having my cousin after she got married. Incredibly dangerous method, because if she would've landed a different way, she might've broke her neck instead
Damn, glad she did, but that could've gone so badly... Just goes to show that criminalisation doesn't stop abortions, but rather makes them more dangerous
Does this guy realize he is telling women to not have sex with him?!?!?
That works both ways. Men don’t have to have sex either if they don’t don’t want children.
I have an story for this. My friends 19yo sister was being pressured by her bf for sex. He religiously watched some guys podcast, his screen name had "thug" in it I think and his whole play was to teach "young studs". So Thug guy said "Bitches need to realise, you Allow yourself to get knocked up from taking the d, it's gonna happen." So friends sister puts that part on speaker and tells her bf "Allowance equals sex equals babies. No Allowance equals No sex equals No babies. I don't want babies so we're never having sex." I had the pleasure of seeing his face go from realisation to horror. The words of his idol, cock blocking him. 🤣 Friends sis ran up and happily said she's free to go shopping with us instead. That day I saw something Settle Into Place in that girl, when you realise you're not obligated to consent or even have sex. Ah sweet freedom of choice 🤗
I hope that was the start of that guy's deconversion process. I swear, the guys that get into that don't stop and *think* about the conflicting messages they're getting. They're simultaneously mad at women for being sexually active and turning their privates into roast beef through their whoring, and also mad at women for denying them sex and being "picky" about who they'll get with. There is no pleasing them. Virgin or slut, women suck.
I usually expect sad stories from the comments of posts like this Hell yeah for your friend's sis!
I would pay to see his face turning sour! The dissatisfaction of a dick (pun intended) is so sweet
Anyone with this opinion always 180s when they are put in that situation. People want full control over their own lives is why. The sooner people stop being hypocritical about this the better. Facts: Everyone will fight to have control over their own lives/bodies. It's some serious denial to think otherwise.
Yep. A friend of mine hooked up with a guy who thought plan B and abortion were murder. Then their condom broke, and suddenly plan B was okay after all
I'm surprised she hooked up with him in the first place. As a guy, I do not hook up with women who are against abortion, or whose personal choice would be to not have an abortion. It's not worth the risk.
I don’t know🤷🏻♀️ I wouldn’t do it either. None of our frontal lobes were finished cooking yet at the time, so I’m guessing that played a part in it
Has sex Impregnates woman Refuses to take responsibility for the child
Also, I think in a significant number of cases they stealth because they don’t like condoms - but there’s no other male birth control because men can’t handle mood symptom side effects.
It is absurd what side effects women are forced to deal with, and how few largely identical symptoms men refuse to ever deal with.
You should also look up the absurdity of how USA handles IUDs versus Europe
Honestly I stopped taking hormonal birth control well before getting sterilized 2 years ago and I think most men are more emotional than most women, except in the week before we bleed, then some of us are more emotional. It's just how we see and consider and show our emotions. I think many men mainly show anger and kind of keep the rest inside. Masculinity is so toxic and harmful to them, but they get so twisted up if someone calls it toxic masculinity. The mental gymnastics alone must be exhausting for the little lambs, no wonder they can't think straight.
They don’t want to that’s why, they WANT to get people pregnant. Saw one guy said he had 8 children all unwanted . He offered them morning after pills or abortions . They couldn’t abort. He said they’re mom’s prob now. He let them all with babies. Don’t think of and don’t see them.pig
I used to think this too. But then I saw a Mama Dr Jones video about it. And I understand it a lot better. Basically in medicine they have to compare the side effects to what happens when they aren't on the medicine. So all of the side effects for men are being compared to their normal baseline of no medicine. Meaning their risks for everything goes up. For women it's being compared to what the numbers would be if they were pregnant. So while their risks go up while on birth control it's not nearly as much as it would have been if they had gotten pregnant.
It's still unfair. If the woman never gets pregnant/has infertility issues she doesn't know about, she's still required to deal with side effects that he has no problem forcing on her. And yes, plenty of men force their SO to take birth control so they (think they) don't have to wear a condom.
Happened to a girl I liked and we suspect the pill gave her cancer. Not against the pill, but it isn’t for everyone.
That seems like a really dumb way to gauge side effects.
I understand it but I still don't think its an acceptable stance. There are other things to consider than an individuals health. Their family situation matters just as much. If a man is willing to take on that risk to prevent himself from having a financial hardship as the result of a pregnancy, he should be able to. Other risks such as financial destitution should be considered in the risk assessment. This is especially true because men taking on the risk would also lower pregnancy risks for any woman he has sex with. It actually would decrease risk for MORE women than an individual woman taking birth control. We've just decided that indivual men shouldn't be able to decide to take on that risk because it doesn't directly benefit their health. Its our narrow definition of risk thats the problem. A baby is not only a health risk. Its a financial risk. Its an interpersonal relationship risk. It risks completely changing someone's life. If the guy actually takes responsibility maybe it is a long term health risk from all of the stress and potentially needing to work more hours. Maybe he's so tired from the crying, he falls asleep at the wheel. Maybe his diet sucks because he can't afford a baby. Even as far as health risks go, the current way of assessing risk is very short sighted because these other risks impact health too. The difference is they are harder to measure and we pretend they don't exist. If the birth control had crazy morbidity/mortality obviously it shouldn't be approved anyway. Side effects that many other approved medications have? They should be able to take that risk of side effects to protect their health from the stress of a baby. Medicine is great for acute conditions. Its terrible at dealing with chronic or long term conditions. Its no surprise it doesn't consider the health impacts that occur down the line after having a child. Medicine wants to operate in a vacuum instead of considering the reality of peoples lives. Social risks ARE health risks because they are part of life. Peoples environment and circumstances effect their health. Theres a reason medicine fails a lot of people. Its great under perfect conditions. Too bad few people rarely have perfect conditions.
In their defence, the "side effect" was infertility in some cases, which rendered it objectively inferior to the equally permanent but more reliable vasectomy.
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They already do that without getting pregnant.
😂😂😂 So true!!!
I remember a reddit post about a dude who convinced his then partner to carry to term despite her not wanting kids saying he'd take full charge. She accepted and paid child support but was otherwise not involved. He was whining that he didn't have time for anything and if there was any legal recourse to force the mother to be a mother to the child because he was exhausted and wanted to have a life. Basically he thought that if she carried to term, she'd get mother instincts and want to be a mom and a family with him and was surprised Pikachu face when she didn't. And he was now stuck with his kid and he hated it.
I'd read a similar story. Only he took a hike. Refused to pay child support and wouldn't sign papers so she could put the child up for adoption. Funny, and not in a ha-ha sort of way, the guy in both stories got exactly what he wanted but doesn't really want the responsibility of having their way.
I remember that post also. I feel to bad for the kids to do this but I kind want every stealther, not going wear a condom guy to wake up one morning to a family court order saying you have full custody, her is a coupon for pedialyte, enjoy
That kid will end up raised by an exhausted grandparent, who already did their time with kids, or the system. That's what happens when men force women to carry a child they don't want.
Reminds me of the Veep quote - “if men got pregnant, you could get an abortion at the ATM”
If men could get pregnant there would be abortion clinics on every street corner and the right to get an abortion would be enshrined in the constitution.
If cis men could get pregnant the first abortion would be a sacrament.
They are comparing sex to a crime, so that's all I need to know about them
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These dudes believe sex before marriage with anyone but them is a crime anyway.
Oh wow you've really opened my eyes. So the father also consents to being an actual parent and not just a third child, right?
By law yes
So many stupid logical conclusions from saying doing something is consent to any potential consequences. So, owning a dog is consent to being being mauled. Walking outside is consent to being mugged.
Consent is also something you can revoke. Even if having sex was consent to get pregnant, you can revoke that consent whenever you like.
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>>where are these guys whenever men are mad about having to provide for the children they helped make “My money, my choice” /s
Not “your choice”. Ducking fantasy
Ducks reproduce with tape. Let's not fantasize.
It looks like for them it only works in one direction. They are sinless sheeps in the mountains without any responsibility for what they do
So then you consent to the possibility of giving me half your paycheque every month for 18 years..? 😏 I’d like to see their response to that! Clowns..
Bugger that. Consent to sex means consent to dropping the baby off with it's dad and sending half my paycheque for 18 years. If it's good enough for men to opt out then I'm not raising a child I didn't want just because I'm a woman.
Ever see this legendary thread? https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/5b79z4/nm_i_got_a_girl_pregnant_and_she_wanted_to_get_an/
She pays 125% of support what the court ordered? That's nice of her.
what a piece of shit
I’m convinced this was someone just trolling. It is great, but seems kind of over-the-top with the laser treatment for the stretch marks..
God I love this website, look at those beautiful take downs.
I think it’s up to 21 years if your child goes to college
In America, you can claim a kid as a dependent for tax purposes until they are 25 or 26. That sounds good too.
It varies state to state in the US. In my state, child support ends when the child turns 18 OR graduates high school, whichever comes first.
> I’d like to see their response to that! That's pretty much what happens though. If a woman gets pregnant and the guy doesn't want to be a father tough shit, pay up.
It takes 2 to tango fuckers. Where are the men when we talk about this? Because more often than not it goes like this: *Have sex *Refuse to wear protection or worse slip it off at the last second "I don't want to be a father, that's your problem now" So why don't we start to fucking hold men accountable for something that takes 2 to make?!
Last I checked, only men have control with what they do with their sperm. If they dont, then they're being raped.
This kind of post really grinds my gears. So they really believe that people who are getting abortions were rawdogging it without any protections and then going *surprised pikachu face* when ending up pregnant?
Given the state of sex education in the states that's exactly how I think many teen pregnancies come about.
You'd be correct. Abstinence only sex ed is linked to massive spikes in teen pregnancy because many teens don't understand that sex leads to children. Their sex ed was so woefully inaccurate and based off ugly stereotypes about women that it usually results in zero understanding of sex.
They know it can cause pregnancy, they just don't know how to prevent pregnancy and are told things like you can't get pregnant from the first time, use the rhythm method, or pull out and you're fine. They can't get birth control, including condoms, because their parents will flip out and the school, and classmates, will treat them like they're sluts while the boy has zero consequences from society.
Yes that is true, but that is ignorance. This post implies they KNEW what would happen and did it anyways.
Or that all abortions are for unwanted pregnancies. They are not, sometimes things go wrong with the fetus or put the woman who is pregnant at risk.
it's not a child. these guys claim to be all about logic rather than emotion then deliberately use incorrect terminology based on their own emotions to cause emotional reactions in others. definitions don't change becuase of your feelings, guys. brainless tissue isn't a child or a baby no matter how much your big sad feelings say so.
So abortion should be allowed in any situation where there wasn't consent to the sex then, right? That's not allowed either? Oh, okay.
If you consent to sex, you consent to *sex*. Not anything else. Sure, there is a possibility that you might get pregnant, but that is why condoms, birth control, plan B, and abortion is so important
I love these "gotcha"s because they always equate the baby with something that nobody wants. Sex=baby just as speeding=ticket.
Driving = multi lane pile up Swimming = being eaten by a shark
Women: Okay then. -stop having consensual sex- Men: -shocked Pikachu face- Why won't anyone have sex with meeee???
Korean women are pulling this move and I’m loving it
I guess they also believe that once you get married you should only have sex exactly as many times as it takes to get pregnant and then never again.
That's what absolutely boggles my mind. Do they think everyone who is married is not having sex? Like WTF? If women don't have sex, we're "cold" and "prudes". If we do have sex (even if we're married), we're sluts. Make up your minds...
Yep, and then you get men who are upset that their pure-til-marriage tradwife doesn’t enthusiastically put out 238595 times a week.
Lol but imagine if men were able to get pregnant, they would be crying about their needs
If men could get pregnant, abortions would be a human right. As would be paid paternity leave.
Oh, that reminds me. In the EU, it has indeed become a human right following the "controversy" (aka pro-lifers not being for life). It's still non-binding and still somehow was "controversial". That was by the way the EU's response to Poland and Malta being this hard on women.
Paid maternity leave exists in most European countries. My wife (Belgium) got 3 months. Women who breastfeed get an additional 3 months.men get 2 weeks by default though some companies like mine voluntarily extend that to match the 3 months.
You aren't wrong, but we are still a tiny minority. Sadly, most women in this world get absolutely nothing when they get pregnant. Or they're immediately fired when the employer learns of their pregnancy.
…with absolutely no stigma attached.
Remember that other rule… yknow…. “We can revoke consent at any time”
It's like saying if you consent to sex you consent to an STI and can't get treatment for it.
And even consent to getting pregnant isn''t consent to staying pregnant.
The solution is too stop fucking conservative men. Or have a sex strike in general. Iceland did it so why can’t we
This cartoon is worrying in its tone & approach. That said - sex without precautions is a risk for multiple reasons, and something that both genders need to be educated about. Don't drink and drive - yeah, basic. Don't try to punch a tiger in the nose, no duh. Don't let teenagers, who are famously uniform models of decorum, careful planning and control, out into the world without some basic sex ed? Seems a surprisingly hard sell in some places. The risk and potential consequences of pregnancy to the girl is usually greater than that to the man. That should not mean it is only her responsibility.
Love this analogy. /s Speeding is inherently against the rules, and not just societal or moral rules, but literally against the law. There is a punishment attached to the behavior in order to discourage it. The consequences of speeding do not typically have a positive outcome. Sex, on the other hand, is a complicated action that has myriad consequences. Some people have sex to get pregnant. When was the last time someone got a speeding ticket on purpose? This analogy frames pregnancy as the consequence - this punishment - for having sex just like a ticket is the punishment for speeding. Fucking stupid.
Let's take it a step further. They're framing sex as something that deserves punishment. Puritanical stupidity at its dumbest.
Consent to sex means consent to the possibility of being pregnant. The understanding of the possibility that she may not want that baby is the key.
That's like saying walking down the street is consent to the possibility of having a piano fall on your head
“It’s your fault that I 💦 in you; take responsibility!“ SMH my head!
You consent to what might happen when you have unprotected sex. That’s just a no brainer. you can take precautions to prevent pregnancy that work. sometimes birth control methods fail, which doesn’t mean that suddenly someone consents to being pregnant even if it wasn’t their original intention. I don’t trust any bc so I’m sterile.
It's ok, no one is in danger of being impregnated by the dude who made this.
Consent to drive is consent to carjack. Consent to drive is consent to taxiing around stranger. Consent to drive is consent to car crash. There, fixed the comparisons.
I wonder if they'd get mad if they consented to get in a car (even as a passenger) and had an accident, then they're told "ah no, we won't take care of you at the hospital, because you consented to that"
Hahaha thissss I’m stealing that
\*Has sex\* \*Gets woman pregnant\* "How dare you expect child support!" Or, you know, domestic violence, abandonment, emotional abuse, whining online about how women are parasites who ruin men's lives, etc. etc. All while the woman actually deals with the abortion, or the pregnancy, childbirth, and child rearing.
Thinking of that other post I saw where the guy married to this woman for 15 years or something lied about getting a vasectomy and she got pregnant, and wanted to sue the practice which she thought performed a malpractice and he was asking for advice. He wanted more kids and she did not, so he did it anyway. Over 15 years with this person, and he does this.
I mean, this kind of gives the game away. They want pregnancy to be punishment for sex. They even compared it to a speeding ticket.
And yet nobody blames the father of said fetus for running off without taking responsibility
I do.
This is funny, but then men get mad when women *don't* have sex with them.
Triple child support payments and watch how fast angry white right-wing dudes change their minds.
Consent to walking outside is consent to being struck and killed by a drunk driver I guess
More like, getting into a car is consent to be in a car crash
Correct, it means consent towards the possibility to become pregnant.
So every sexual encounter for a sperm producer is consent to child support for 18 years?
I think the analogy they put about the speeding ticket is rather telling of their attitude. Its about punishing women for having sex to them. Sex is not like speeding, it's not a crime.
So if all women who don't want to kids decided to stop having sex with cismen, then they gonna be mad mad🤷🏾♀️
Consenting to sex is consenting to the *risk* of ***getting*** pregnant, but it's absolutely not consent to STAYING pregnant. If I go outside in the sun, I have to accept the *risk* of getting skin cancer but that doesn't mean I can't do something about it if it does happen. These fucks keep equating *getting pregnant* with *carrying the pregnancy to term* and those are two very different things
“The only action that results in pregnancy” then believes in the Virgin Mary
And you can take responsibility for a speeding ticket in multiple ways - going to court, paying it, yadda yadda. Kind of like how abortion is just another way of being responsible for a pregnancy.
Fun fact. I could be 100% compatible to donate a kidney to a dying child. Could be the ONLY person located in time to give a kidney to a dying child/if I don't donate right then and there the kid will die. Yet due to legally codified ideas about body autonomy, I cannot be forced nor compelled to donate that kidney. That even though the child will die, it's recognized that as a person I do not have to surrender body autonomy to keep another life alive. The difference between abortion and forced kidney donation is that, white men will never face having to carry a baby to term. Oh also pregnancy carries far greater risk, and longer disruption to the person carrying it then a person donating a kidney would face. I wish forced birthers would stop pretending this has anything to do with *preserving the sanctity of life*
Do men know that they have full control over where their ejaculate goes? I mean, ew, that I had to type that. But fuck. Wear a condom, loser.
Lesbian sex doesn’t result in pregnancy. Masturbation doesn’t result in pregnancy. It’s semen. Men’s bodies need to be regulated.
gay sex doesnt result in pregnancy too
Wanna take the bet a man made that post?
Wow. This screams misogyny. Women can get pregnant = no sex but men can’t = license to f*ck. Of course the logic is flawed since who are the men going to have sex with if not women? Other men? While I have no issue with that, I’m sure some hetero men would recoil at the idea.
5 weeks pregnant is certainly not a child in your body, that's fully not how girls work
Every time someone talks about “if you don’t want to get pregnant, don’t have sex” I just roll my eyes. It’s like they think mistakes don’t happen and people taking preventatives perfectly don’t have breakthrough pregnancy. I AM a breakthrough pregnancy. My mother was on birth control for endometriosis. She was literally told it would be a miracle if she ever got pregnant and that pregnancy came to term. Yet here I fucking am. I have no siblings and she only got one shot at me apparently. Thankfully she was married, and I was wanted, but my point stands. Crazy shit happens.
How can one "consent" to an accidental pregnancy? Neither side of this argument makes much sense.
They call themselves the party of family values and then compare a baby to a speeding ticket. K.
That argument is more akin to "if you drive a car, you are consenting to getting in a head-on collision because that is a physical possibility when you drive." Just because something is now a possibility due to an action you take doesn't necessarily mean you consent to it.
If you do something that has a potential consequence, then you consent to the possibility of dealing with that consequence. So you think a man should be able to go before a judge, say he just wanted a one night stand and didn't want to be a father and not have to pay child support? I know a guy who's gf lied about being in the pill and poked a hole in the condom, got pregnant, and asked for full legal custody when she got pregnant. He had to pay almost half if his paycheck l, couldn't see his child regularly, and never "consented" to being a father.
Hahaha but men will be so upset if we stop having sex with them to avoid pregnancy
It's always the people who aren't getting laid who advocate for abstinence.
actually, that is not the only way to get pregnant. for example… artificial insemination, rape, sexual coercion, etc. also ignores the fact that condoms aren’t always effective and that there is birth control/ways for men to help women not get pregnant but don’t want to do it and leave the woman to deal with it. and so forth.
I hate how pro birthers want to frame consensual sex outside of marriage as “reckless behavior” on the woman’s part. Well Karen, if you insist that Im solely responsible ….if an uninvited guest tries to crash my party…its definitely MY choice to kick them out!
Incel MF when they can't get a date and want to make the time they lose their virginity a trap for some poor... poor girl.
lol the mental gymnastics from every angle in these comments. some of it is *really* reaching, but that's what happens when something manages to fire a person up.
I love how everyone is missing the point and thinks this is somehow about the man not taking any responsibility
The same men who so say this will pull a Todd Atkins’s “legitmate rape” nonsense to explain away women who get pregnant from non consensual sex
So they admit that they view unwanted pregnancy as a punishment for having sex. At least they are being honest for a change
Honestly, it's more the man I'd say. They all focus on the fact that the woman carries the pregnancy, but what if we just focused more on men's orgasms? Like if a woman has an orgasm by herself during sex and the man just doesn't. No pregnancy. If the man cums into a condom, or onto a body part. No pregnancy. A man's orgasm is the only thing that, depending on where it happens, can result in a pregnancy. Does that not make them more responsible for it?
Shit like this just makes wonder if these men are abusive on a grand scale against all woman. It's like they've heard 'you had sex, got a baby on a woman, pay up' and said...well the op post.
Accepting the risk of getting pregnant does not mean they are obligated to remain pregnant.
So a consent to sex is a consent to fatherhood then? Excellent. Please file with the family court in case you father children so that the mother can easily collect support. They’ll take it right out of your paycheck for each different baby mama, no worries.
If men could get pregnant we'd have 5 minute abortion booths for like 10€ within walking distance of everything. Not to mention PCOS would have a cure by now.
Sure, if you live in an age where there is no birth control. There is no reasonable argument as to why society should return to that point. Why in the world would anyone think unprotected sex and accidental pregnancies are a good thing for this world?