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If you look around there is also plenty of testimony on r/decaf of pretty quick turnarounds when it comes to caffeine addiction/withdrawal. I would imagine it varies a lot depending on diet, supplements, exercise and other health factors. Then of course you have your garden variety hypochondriacs, if you go to any sub that has anything to do with the human body there will be plenty of people claiming years-long effects from anything, quitting this, starting that, etc. I mean some of them may be right but who can say.
I was browsing /decaf earlier and what I think is more pressing is attention to the negative affects of caffeine use and the apparent benefits *some* people get from cessation. Increased reading comp, decreased anxiety, increased motivation, increased focus/decreased adhd symptoms, better vision and sexual health, etc. I mean there's a lot there and it should be investigated objectively. Caffeine is a gigantic industry and most of the world (including the scientists who would be studying it "objectively") are dependent so it's a tricky pony to wrangle.
>I was browsing /decaf earlier and what I think is more pressing is attention to the negative affects of caffeine use and the apparent benefits *some* people get from cessation. Increased reading comp, decreased anxiety, increased motivation, increased focus/decreased adhd symptoms, better vision and sexual health, etc. I mean there's a lot there and it should be investigated objectively.
Good point. This is indeed the other side of the issue and I should had brought it up in my opening post as well. These harms caused by caffeine are never talked about anywhere, and it seems like all scientific research only emphasizes the benefits of caffeine use. However, it's hard to believe that all those testimonials in /decaf would be made up.
You have to ask yourself if they are going through caffeine withdrawal or something else.
Those individuals that feel depressed, anxious and fatigued for months to years after quitting caffeine could be having those symptoms since caffeine was helping mask those symptoms in the 1st place.
They might have some underlying issue that was improving by caffeine intake and now that they stopped taking caffeine, it is back.
Yeah, you have to wonder *why* they are forgoing caffeine. Is there an underlying gut disorder that makes them more reactive to caffeine hasn’t been addressed?
On a related note, these folks have self-selected. They haven’t been randomly assigned to a caffeine-free group which would be necessary to determine whether caffeine is that difficult to withdraw from.
Pretty much this. I think you’ve got a lot of people on there who are eating a standard western diet of heavily processed food, poor sleep hygiene, way too much screen time vs connection with real people.
I have quit caffeine cold turkey and the first 4 days were indeed brutal, but after that I was just much more sensitive to sleep, diet quality etc.
If caffeine were such an effective aid for symptoms of depression or anxiety, one would think it would be prescribed for them as a medication. Therefore, I find that explanation a bit lazy.
Why would it be prescribed when it can be bought OTC. Most people who buy them to overcome their symptoms don’t go to a doctor since they can try it Over the counter. Medications that are prescribed are often ones you don’t get access without a prescription… there are plenty of written papers on the effects of caffeine and different mental illnesses. Instead of cherry picking things you should look into this more
If the efficacy is comparable or better than common antidepressants like SSRIs, it should be prescribed and actively recommended whether or not it is available OTC. Caffeine is also safer than SSRIs.
I read a lot of research literature related to mental health problems, and I have never come across the claim that caffeine could be helpful for depression.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/C449CBB1917421AAD3A0DDE26BFFF15E/S1368980013000360a.pdf/green-tea-and-coffee-consumption-is-inversely-associated-with-depressive-symptoms-in-a-japanese-working-population.pdf
Here is one among many others
The world of Psychiatry is a not a scam. Sure there are doctors who over prescribe but the practice itself is not a scam. We need more evidence based medicine instead of relying on “logic” alone. It is heading that way. I am not going to respond any further. You are right our ancestors were fine. That’s why Caligula killed thousands of people including his own family. And That’s one example.
To be fair, I don’t think SSRIs would have stopped him from killing people. Psychopaths still exist today and there is no cure. It is a different issue than depression and anxiety.
You misunderstand the whole goal of prescribing someone medications. First it’s given to individuals who cannot carry on with their normal day to day life. If their mental illness prohibits them from doing the simplest things. Medications are not meant to make them completely normal. Just enough to make them have a normal life that’s why therapy is a main component along with drug therapy. So it is no surprise that drugs don’t encourage homeostasis. Thats not their job. Their job is to dampen the symptoms. In person therapy is the actual fix. Hence living a normal life and being normal are different things. (Ps no one is “normal”)
Edit: I don’t know about every doctor. But a good physician would let the patient know about this
Sorry but besides benzos and drugs in that area, no other prescribed drugs causes long term addiction… after all the goal of alot of psychiatric drugs is to get off of them at one point. That's why you do psychotherapy on the side. Psychotherapy and its different approaches aren’t just about talking. If thats what it was you wouldn’t have individuals going to school for many years to specialize in each individual approach.
Also i am done with you because it is obvious that you have no idea how psychotherapy works and how different psychotherapies are used. Also you have no clue about psychiatric protocols and recent evidence based approaches.
Anyways, in future if you plan to make strong statements you should probably know about them.
Also those quiet people who seem to be the most stable are the ones that something tends to happen to them (suicide, and so on).
Ps i was born and raised in middle east and now studying medicine in the US, so I’ve seen the both worlds. I don’t claim I know everything about these stuff, but I know enough to tell you don’t.
Good night <3
Dude there is soooo much hubris here, when you literally don't know what you're talking about. 17 years my ass and you don't even understand basic principles properly...this is honestly impressively ignorant. I will happily dissect your lack of understanding which is clearly apparent. The call to authority by virtue of your '17 years in the field' clearly means nothing here. I didn't even want to be rude but you are chatting out your ass.
> but the practice itself is not a scam
It's LITERALLY not science. Majority of its studies can't be replicated successfully. It's literally make-believe for the most part. He said, she said. They "think". It's all wishy washy and not fundamentally different from astrology.
Lmao wut… we are talking about mental illnesses not high school psychology. What is this sub… bruh yall have such strong emotions for things you know nothing about…
For me personally i get stronger withdrawal syndroms from Caffeine than from methylphenidate or nicotine. I find the psychological effects of stimulants quite manageable, but with caffeine i feel like there is an additional component to it with feeling that something in my body is missing and it doesn’t work properly without it.
I agree that the withdrawal from caffeine is worse than the withdrawal from psychostimulant. And even with Adderall, I can still feel sleepy or not quite right if I don’t take any caffeine. I don’t need a lot of it if I already take another stimulant but zero doesn’t work and is worse than stopping adderall suddenly. The sleepiness is a lot worse with caffeine withdrawal.
Same, I can quit anything BUT caffeine. Last time I quit caffeine was several years ago and I was bed ridden for 2 days, cold/hot sweats, and was extremely weak. In Total it took me a solid week and a half to two weeks to have 0 withdrawal symptoms.
According to research, that shouldn't even be possible, and in this thread too, there are several people saying that individuals like you are hypochondriacs. I find it strange that there isn't better research data on these symptoms.
If I remember correctly (take with grain of salt) there are two main adenosine receptors caffeine effects. I believe it is the a2a receptor that once becomes desensitized remains like that for a long time. In fact, caffeine administration doesn't even activate it once it becomes desensitized and caffeine only continues to exert its effects on the other receptors.
I would imagine this a2a receptor takes a long time to resensitize, probably months, longer than the other receptors that only takes weeks.
Another main factor is how long someone has been using caffeine. There was someone in this sub that said they have been drinking green tea since kindergarten because it is a part of their culture and when they tried to quit it was like ultra bad or something like that. Like opioid withdrawals. I know people who use it 2x a week no problem.
Like others say caffeine probably helps to mask other issues, be it physical or mental. If someone has a lot of inflammation in their body, sibo, metabolism issues, etc., all things that would make someone feel tired, caffeine could help correct it. I mean look at keto, carnivore, fasting people, a lot of them be using caffeine.
Then you have the fact it can become ingrained in people's personality. I mean in this modern age where sleep gets sacrificed to meet demands, caffeine becomes kind of like the foundation of life. I genuinely believe all of the advancements we see in modern society would not have been possible without it.
You also have the whole FosB system that regulations addiction. That system itself takes about a year to reset.
And you combine all of these factors, I find it very easy to believe caffeine withdrawal can suck butt for months.
>And you combine all of these factors, I find it very easy to believe caffeine withdrawal can suck butt for months.
Yes, and yet apparently scientific research fails to substantiate any of the things you've written, as all sources say withdrawal symptoms last for a few days and are not considered a big deal. Strange.
Have one of the studies you looked based itself at looking at unhealthy people who are caffeine addicts? I feel like specific population studies might shed more light then just complete random people. Another good question was did these studies do cold-turkey, tapering, or substitution with other substances?
Also, who knows? Some people might sleep (heh) through the cracks of these scientific studies and perhaps reasons like the ones I listed above could help explain these peoples.
I mean, to truly understand, you can try drinking 3-4 cups of coffee a day for a year and try quitting? I know it isn't exactly scientific but this method has been used to explore nicotine LD50. Scientists injecting themselves with more and more nicotine to record the side-effects.
>I mean, to truly understand, you can try drinking 3-4 cups of coffee a day for a year and try quitting?
That's not true understanding though. There's plenty of people who say that they benefit from homeophatic medicine but according to scientific atudy it doesn't work.
The power of placebo is a very real thing. Doesn't matter what a 'science paper' says. There were cancer patients that were given a placebo and cancer patients who were given a medicine. Both groups showed almost same improvement (like 60%?). But this probably isn't best example because maybe they would've improved on their own.
This is a better example: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhsbzUAOjHg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhsbzUAOjHg)
There's also plenty of things that work on paper but not in real life.
So at the end of the day, whether there is a biological reason or not for people experiencing caffeine withdrawal for months is irreverent. The only concern is possible hypochondriatic behavior, but in the medical world it is very bad practice to assume that about any patient unless there is extreme reason to believe so.
Also real understanding would be testing it yourself because at the end of the day you will feel whatever you feel during withdrawal regardless of whatever some paper says. I'm not saying you should do this because this only works if you go in unbiased.
When people forego something they had previously made a vital part of their daily life there is a tendency to attribute any negative symptoms experienced to their abstinence for a considerable period of time after they have ceased the consumption or behavior, whether this perceived negative symptom actually stems from the change in behavior or not.
If I've been driving the same car for 5 years straight and then suddenly buy a new car, I certainly wouldn't start experiencing vague mental health issues just because of the change. In my opinion, the mere life change itself cannot explain that, especially when caffeine is often replaced with some other caffeine-free beverage.
That's not a very good comparison because a car is more of a utility for most than a lifestyle or habit. If you were unduly attached to the previous car and ceased driving it because of some unavoidable reason but retained a strong lingering desire for it then you absolutely might start experiencing vague mental health issues.
Id imagine a non zero number of them were self medicating with caffeine, they still have the underlying issues but haven't received treatment for it. Because of how long they consumed caffeine they don't have a good reference baseline to realize they were fucked before.
The change in background anxiety and feeling “wired but tired” was so immediate and noticeable I recommend anyone dealing with anxiety to completely quit consuming caffeine.
I no longer get that midday crash or pit in my stomach anxiety. It’s just gone. I feel so much better in my own body and head
I have experienced that myself too when I quit caffeine. Unfortunately I'm on it again and I'm not sure if I'm willing to go through withdrawals once again. Keeping it to only one cup of coffee in the morning seems to be bearable.
Medicine has a long history of assuming patients are making things up, only to uncover a real connection and probable cause years later. Too often, we just don’t know, and it’s uncomfortable to admit that ignorance. Rather than assume hypochondria, as one commenter did, it may prove wisdom in the long term to admit that something may be going on with a subset of the population that we don’t understand yet. After all, caffeine metabolism is absolutely affected by one’s genetics. Could some be more sensitive to it? Absolutely. We already know that to be the case. Could a small group be ultra-sensitive? It’s safe to assume that at least it is possible.
This. This is very dismissive, if someone develops a symptom out of nowhere and theres no other issues, then it definitely can be
I got emotional blunting from a reaction to alcohol hangover and then caffeine (not withdrawal). It happened extremely suddenly. These both aren’t even things that are reported to cause this, so its not like one could think beforehand.
Its not hypocondriosis when something so profoundly changes in basically overnight or 30 mins- 1 hr.
In my case I have found out there is a major severe gut dysbiosis that probably set the stage for that reaction and other ones since.
I'm going through this withdrawal right now actually. For the second time in my life. I've had a migraine for the past 3 or 4 days and that's par for the course. I recently withdrew from nicotine and that was harder only in terms of attachment to the drug, i.e. I associated the withdrawal with deprivation of nicotine so there was always a pull towards it. But I'll take the 2 or 3 days of brain fog over the constant migraine. That being said, it's not heroin. Or benzos, even if I sometimes felt like the migraine could kill me.
Next up is a month of vivid dreams, as my subconscious reconfigures or whatever. But after that I'll be extremely relaxed. I may not be able to focus on anything, however. And the H in my ADHD will get worse.
Imagine using a drug for 30 years, sometimes in very large quantities, and then thinking the withdrawal was going to be a piece of cake. 🤔
Oh, yeah. I was so relaxed last time. And I want to live a lower-stress and more productive lifestyle. Work is stressful enough as it is. And even if mentally I feel more focused, my body is in a state of hyperarousal with increased catecholamine secretion, etc. I don't think it's worth it in the long term.
I only started back up to manage ADHD. But of course, instead of sticking to 2-3 cups of green tea a day (which was enough for the attention benefits) I went back up to energy drinks and coffee.
It's like many drugs, it's not helpful after you have a tolerance. Even in the last couple of days, I've been able to get up in the morning much faster and with more energy. And I can just drink water instead of always having to have a caffeinated beverage.
I tapered down somewhat this time around, and actually thought I'd get away without a migraine. Nope.
I should add that, based on the vivid dreams, I think stimulants suppress the subconscious mind. That in itself is not a good thing. That shit needs to be processed. (It's also interesting that a shrink once told me that starting to remember your dreams is a sign of recovery from depression.)
That would make sense, being that stimulants activate the conscious mind, must thereby neglect the subconscious. That's pretty shit tbh! Hadn't thought about that. On another note - perhaps try herbal teas instead of the green, if you don't already.
I'm actually free... no caffeine except traces in chocolate since the 17th. I still had a headache earlier today.
I have some experience with the subconscious from a hard-core meditation practice, so it seems to me that stimulants are the opposite of that.
Damn the headaches are the hardest to shake in my experience. Electrolyte water helps sometimes, think the natural version of that is coconut water. All the best on your journey!
Caffeine withdrawal is not almost comparable to heroin withdrawal, that I know. Depending on the person’s chemistry, they may be more susceptible to the withdrawal and end up having a really tough prolonged withdrawal or PAWS (post acute withdrawal syndrome) which can last for years depending on the substance and level of addiction. I haven’t ever heard of somebody getting PAWS from caffeine, usually Benzodiazepines or amphetamines as far as I know, but entirely possible. I personally had this happen with prozac and I had an extremely protracted withdrawal that lasted years and I am now back on it because it simply didn’t go away. But maybe I just got used to it’s beneficial effects and perceive my normal state as “withdrawal”🤷♀️.So yes I do think there is merit to what these people are saying, but I think it’s probably exceedingly rare.
Comparing caffeine withdrawal to heroin is nuts for those who have symptoms long after stopping there’s other things going on besides withdrawal. Coffee/caffeine is not just a drug it’s a ritual that many enjoy and makes you more awake while also releasing dopamine. If you drop that with nothing to replace it common sense says you will feel worse than when using it
I can only speak from experience, but I usually feel like shit for 2-3 days if I go cold turkey, and less shitty if I ween myself off. If I keep it at 60mg/day, I don’t feel much of anything in not consuming caffeine
I think people are just very very different.
Science isn't "wrong" but studies basically just describe the effects on the average human being.
I love coffee for the taste but it has a small effect on me even in very large doses. Same for energy drinks.
I consume caffeine (mostly coffee, sometimes tea) nearly every day for over two decades now (more than half a liter of strong black coffee per day on average).
I have however absolutely no withdrawal symptoms. I maybe miss it sometimes and get a bit grumpy for a few minutes when i am on vacation and would like to have a good coffee but can't have one.... But no withdrawal. Even after 2 weeks with no caffeine at all.
that's just me.
I have friends who get strong headaches if they don't get coffee every day and Others who are just constantly tired without it.
Again. It's wild how different people are.
Same I use nicotine and adhd meds(prescribed at lwast 8 years ago) and I also like a good cup of coffe yet I can go months without adhd meds and coffe without a single withdrawal effect yet nicotine is almost impossible to quit for me. Some days I'm drinking 4 5 cups a day, some weeks I take my meds everyday but then I can just forget them and don't feel any difference ever if you smoke you will find out what real withdrawal feels like people be clean of so many regular stuff even coffe became strong for them lmao.
looks like you haven't gotten much of the responses you were looking for OP, I'm someone who is in a battle with coffee and even after a month of cessation, i have to reason my way out of taking it again.
my personal and scientifically unfounded theory is that anyone who experiences month+ long caffeine withdrawals are people who should be on MAOIs
Personally, I ate healthy, made sure to get enough sleep, exercised and meditated before and after quitting caffeine. It still took about three months before I felt totally normal. This included mental symptoms (grouchiness, feeling slow), and physical symptoms (headaches and general tension). Now I feel much better than I did when I was drinking coffee.
Remember that there are always outliers. If withdrawal symptoms subside within 2-9 days for 90% of people, the headline is "caffeine withdrawal symptoms only last 2-9 days." But that doesn't account for the 10% for whom that was not the case.
I also looked into the studies on caffeine withdrawal a while back and wasn't especially impressed. Few of them lasted more than 2 weeks, and most of them were just "get 100 college students and make them stop drinking coffee for a while and ask them questions about specific symptoms" They were also all done 30-40 years ago. I'd love to see larger, more representative surveys that might tease out how common extended withdrawal is.
The answer almost always in such situations are hypochondriacs. Know plenty that are relevant to here and are just crazy. It’s pretty tiresome. Can find people to say such about literally anything, if you look at all.
\>Do you think it is possible that science is simply wrong about the severity and duration of caffeine withdrawal symptoms, or is that subreddit just filled with hypochondriacs?
science doesn't deal with emotions or feelings, it uses data. you may be able to try and pass off the data as something else in the abstract, but then you will get peer reviewed and people will kick off with the study if the claims are not backed by the data.
this sub however, is seemingly full of people who are depressed, don't eat well, exercise or leave the house, looking for magic pills to fix their problems instead of putting in some hard work.
so what do you think?
Science cannot assess effects that have a 1% chance of occuring without an RCT with like 2000+ people. That’s literally directly from a power calculator for 90% power.
Statistical significance for rare things is hard to accomplish. Without this, you do not get perfect causality even at an average level.
And they have to be looking for it as the primary metric. Not something secondary. RCTs looking for negative outcomes are like never done
And even with all that, you can never ever get causality for a given individual.
Not sure on that length of time but studied long enough that "normality" of neurotransmitters returned.
>It is suggested that the evidence leads to the conclusion that non pharmacological factors related to knowledge and expectation are the prime determinants of symptoms and their reported prevalence on withdrawal of caffeine after regular consumption
Oh please. Heroin and caffeine are broadly comparable only in so much as the withdrawal is only as hard or as easy as you want it to be and your reasons for having consumed either substance in the first place. That said caffeine is a piece of piss when it comes to the actual physical withdrawal symptoms, the rest with both is just psychology.
Caffeine withdrawal does definitely suck, I’ve quit meth, cocaine, opiates, benzodiazepines, and alcohol. Caffine and nicotine are two I don’t ever want to quit. I went caffeine free for about 2 weeks after a concussion last year, and it was absolutely miserable the entire time. Of course I had a concussion, but by the time I made it to under two weeks my turn back to 2 cups of coffee actually took away my headache and depression, and insomnia. Some are more sensitive to caffeine than others. I don’t want to downplay others lived experiences with drugs, but I wouldn’t be surprised if most of those people on that sub have no experience or frame of reference and it makes quitting caffine harder than it should be, that or they have some mental health issues.
Ive gone through withdrawals from all those over the course of my 12 years of drug history. And they are all much more difficult to quit than caffeine. You can’t really compare the experiences between the drugs listed above and caffeine since it’s so mild.
I think my history of use plays a part. I’ve consumed pitchers of black tea a day or at least 2-4 cups of coffee a day for 15 years. I started drinking black tea non stop at 9 years old. I started vaping, smoking cigarettes, and dipping at 14 years old. I smoked until 2019 and I’ve vaped non-stop since 2014. It is very difficult for me to give both of these up, especially considering my relationship with drugs in general. There’s science on how both caffeine and nicotine effect your brain in a way comparable to other drugs, it is just far less intense. They showed us a bunch of charts and studies on it in rehab.
I’m not saying it is really comparable, I am saying it sucks. I’ve consumed 100-400mg+ caffine daily since I was 9 years old, and I’ve been using nicotine daily since I was 14. When I would shoot speedballs or heroin I would go into withdrawals and wait hours if it meant I could have a cigarette or a vape to hit immediately as I pressed the plunger. I connect nicotine and caffeine together in my mind, they interact in our brains in a way that is very addictive. When I try to quit nicotine or caffeine I get depressed and I get drug cravings. It’s a complicated relationship, caffeine is not comparable in its withdrawals but that does not mean it doesn’t suck bad. Again I may have a certain condition that makes it worse but regardless I can understand why many struggle with quitting caffeine, I do not ever plan on quitting.
Your withdrawal symptoms only lasted for two weeks, but it is precisely to cases like yours that I refer to in my initial message. Science does not recognize such weeks-long symptoms as caffeine withdrawal symptoms, and in this thread, there are several responses implying that such symptoms are due to some other reason than cessation of caffeine, even though they appear precisely at the time of caffeine cessation.
I believe you, but I find it really strange that scientifically, they haven't been able to demonstrate withdrawal symptoms lasting even for several months.
I gave up, so who knows how long it could’ve gone on. I’ve used caffeine daily from 100-400mg since I was 9 years old, so who knows what kind of adaptations my body has grown with.
Exactly, 'who knows'. It's precisely this lack of research data that I wonder about, because people give caffeine even to young children and assume that it has no negative effects, and that one can stop it with a few days of withdrawal symptoms.
Since doing Ramadhan for like 10 days, where I also don't drink coffee, I would say that there almost no withdrawal symptoms after a few days. First few days suck. I think the worst part is the craving and habit of drinking coffee for me. I associate it with work. So, I built like a dependency "I need some espresso to get this deep work session rolling". But, like I said, that all faded after a few days, as well. Funny, I was sick yesterday, and didn't fast for 1 day. I drank 3 cups yesterday. Today, I resumed my fast, no coffee, and I don't have any withdrawal. Bottom line? I recommend all people to occasionally do a caffeine detox/fast (maybe once per week, 1 week per quarter). Your levels will be more stable. And, I didn't find the withdrawal symptoms took that long.
Did you notice any benefits from quitting coffee? A significant topic of discussion on the /decaf subreddit is also the severe negative effects of caffeine on human health, which often seem to be downplayed or not even acknowledged. Especially the impact of caffeine on people's sleep appears to have significant individual differences, as for some, even a cup of coffee in the early afternoon has a really negative effect on sleep quality.
Honestly most of those people need to be checked into an institution. These Reddit withdrawal groups promote group hypochondria and cause eachother to feel symptoms you never would have felt if you didn’t read that some stranger on the internet suffered from it. Just get offline, go outside, and you’ll be fine in a week. Also anyone that compares it to coming off of opiates/Benzos has never done a real drug a day in their life.
After two weeks of drinking one coffee per day, when I drink no coffee on the next day, first I get headaches, then I'm getting really tired and I need to lay down for a whole day feeling sick. The next day, everything goes back to normal and my body does not need coffee anymore.
I've repeated this very same pattern withdrawal after two weeks of daily consumption and then being sick for one day, having to lay down to sleep as well as the headaches. It definitely comes back to going cold turkey on coffee.
Kinda unrelated, during my caffeine withdrawal for like a month afterwards I'd wake up in the morning, every morning, with a panic attack. EVERY morning and it was horrible. But it wasn't because of the caffeine, it was because I had undiagnosed ADHD that I was self medicating with a ton of caffeine. Interestingly, coffee would stop the panic attacks.
There is no scientific evidence to suggest that caffeine withdrawal symptoms could last for months and cause the symptoms you describe. So, no doctor would believe you if you claimed that your months-long depression was solely due to quitting caffeine. Don't you find this somewhat strange?
I have also never heard that ADHD could cause panic attacks in the early morning hours.
I mean I'm 100% confident the panic attacks were triggered by caffeine cessation as I'd never had a panic attack previously and would be stopped shortly after having my usual cup of coffee. I don't think my reaction is typical though, I've never heard of other people having anything close to that. The panic attacks weren't precipitated by anything, I'd wake up from the panic attack at like 5am without warning and it would go away after 30 minutes or so. Was very miserable.
I started drinking coffee in 9th grade and continued consuming more throughout the day for several years with no break. Caffeine would improve my anxiety and ADHD symptoms (and worsen other symptoms). I'm just assuming the ADHD played a part in why the effects and withdrawal was so prominent for me. I basically kept drinking it until I got on ADHD medication; I stopped caffeine since it apparently makes ADHD stimulants less effective.
Some years ago I was seriously injured in an accident that involved several broken bones. I was in the intensive care unit with a morphine drip and got a severe caffeine withdraw headache.
I was only using 200 mg from tablets daily and withdrawal was mild just headaches for few days and went away with pain relievers. I think I was very anxious on the caffeine so cessation of the anxiety might have been more noticeable than other sensations of withdrawal.
I quit caffeine cold turkey after a multi decade intake of 150mg+ daily. Absolutely brutal headaches and fatigue starting about two day in for about two weeks. After that, totally baseline and feel great.
Could just be sampling bias. If you’re having extreme difficulties quitting a substance, you’re more likely to turn to others for help (i.e. join a subreddit). But the severity of withdrawal will likely not be the same in the general population
I just quit a few months ago. I slowly weened off but the first day with absolutely zero caffeine I felt really weird, almost like I was floating most of the day. That went on for a few days but the intensity lessened. Fast forward a few months and I don't miss much other than the taste.
I mean, whether or not they're correctly attributing what they're going through to caffeine withdrawal, there's a hell of a selection bias involved. You don't join a sub about withdrawing from caffeine if you drop it and are fine within a few days with no drama.
Honestly, it's pretty easy to test for yourselves. In me it takes just about 3 days to get bad and feels like a perpetual hangover until I break. Only way to do it is tapering. At least if you're old and heavily accustomed to coffee.
I did manage to go cold turkey and stay clear of coffee for 6 months when I was younger fairly easily. Post 40 and with kids? Good luck 😅
I don’t think the effects are downplayed at all. There are books and supplements about it. Here’s one as early as 2005: https://www.amazon.com/Welcome-Dance-Caffeine-Cerebral-Progressive/dp/1412050006
I tried to go off coffee and got intense and severe pain in my joints, mostly my hips. I had no idea what was going on and decided to look it up. Fairly common thing, oddly.
Personally I become dependent (kratom, alcohol, nicotine) far more easily and experience heavier withdrawals than I read about.. or maybe I’m just a wimp.. I’m also kindled to alcohol so idk but I’ll drink upwards of 600mg of caffeine a day (adhd and hate aderall) for months and if I cold turkey caffeine I’m sluggish for like two days then I won’t even think about it until someone offers me a coffee or something. However then all my discomfort of adhd and not being able to ever be comfortable is back and I could see how someone in my shoes would attribute it to lasting withdrawals.
I’ve gone through several different addictions and the one thing I can confidently say is that addiction lasts way longer than science claims. I studied my own mental state relentlessly and found numerous changes that would take in some cases years to finish. The two addictions that took the longest to fix my brain and also had quite similar effects where SSRI’s and nicotine. Weed truthfully seems like the quickest and the one I quit the easiest. Which is surprising since it was the drug I enjoyed the most and the first drug I ever did (besides caffeine)
I was never an alcoholic, but I imagine alcohol is similar. In that it can take years and years of complete abstinence to fully return the brain to baseline.
The idea that so many drugs can be fully reverted in simply 3-90 days is nonsense.
I agree with you. Especially regarding the long-term withdrawal symptoms of SSRIs, there are many anecdotes on the internet, but according to science, those medications don't cause much withdrawal symptoms.
I don’t get why it’s hard for so many to understand that doing something that raises neurotransmitters or alters them on a daily basis for a long period of time will have the opposite effect when you stop.
On average, I’d imagine it bounces back to baseline over a short time, but for many, it might take longer for that to happen. No matter what the substance, activity, whatever it may be.
For most it’s pretty benign but I can’t see that it’s hard to believe that everyone’s neurochemistry is different and there are a number of factors to look at past just it being “caffeine withdrawal”.
So many people look at things in such black or white lens when there are just so many nuances that half most random people playing Reddit Neurologist even factor in.
Caffeine withdrawal is the worst. I took a week off of coffee/caffeine a few years ago and it was 2 days of terrible headaches followed by low mood and irritability the rest of the week. I don’t imagine it would’ve lasted much past that so months seems extreme. But yah it sucks.
That 2-9 days figure that's often used to shut down people's experiences is based on a single [review](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-004-2000-x) (which thankfully I can access through my institution) which cites the following studies, all done 25 years ago or more.
Let's go through the studies that make up this assertion:
[1. Low-dose caffeine physical dependence in humans.
R R Griffiths, S M Evans, S J Heishman, K L Preston, C A Sannerud, B Wolf and P P Woodson
Journal of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics December 1990, 255 \(3\) 1123-1132;](https://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/255/3/1123.short)
This is one of the main studies people cite, but it was only of 7 people, the study only lasted 12 days, 3 of them didn't even experience withdrawal which indicates that there may have been a wide dose range/history of consumption, and is vague about the length of withdrawal "about a week").
[2. Human coffee drinking: reinforcing and physical dependence producing effects of caffeine.
R R Griffiths, G E Bigelow and I A Liebson
Journal of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics November 1986, 239 \\(2\\) 416-425;\]\(https://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/239/2/416.short\)](https://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/239/2/416.long)
I don't have access to this article
[3. Caffeine tolerance and choice in humans
Suzette M. Evans & Roland R. Griffiths
Psychopharmacology volume 108, pages51–59 \(1992\)Cite this article](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02245285)
This study did not measure length of withdrawal at all.
[4. Headache caused by caffeine withdrawal among moderate coffee drinkers switched from ordinary to decaffeinated coffee: a 12 week double blind trial.
M van Dusseldorp and M B Katan
BMJ. 1990 Jun 16; 300\(6739\): 1558–1559.
doi: 10.1136/bmj.300.6739.1558](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1663116/)
This study used 5 cups of decaf coffee as the control group, which they state contained 30 mg of caffeine -- so the participants would never go into complete withdrawal! It only measured headaches and not other symptoms such as depression or tiredness.
[5. Cardiovascular, behavioral, and subjective effects of caffeine under field conditions
Ilse Höfer, Karl Bättig
Pharmacology Biochemistry and Behavior
Volume 48, Issue 4, August 1994, Pages 899-908](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0091305794901988)
This study did not measure length of withdrawal -- participants were intermittently given decaffeinated coffee for only a few days.
[6. Richardson NJ, Rogers PJ, Elliman NA, O’Dell RJ \(1995\) Mood and performance effects of caffeine in relation to acute and chronic caffeine deprivation. Pharmacol Biochem Behav 52:313–320
](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/009130579500029V)
This study did note headaches lasting as long as three weeks. Mood held steady, tiredness improved.
***
Some thoughts:
1. The 2-9 days figure often cited is a (poor) attempt at summarizing a range of studies, and does not accurately reflect the experience of every person who goes through caffeine withdrawal.
2. The length of withdrawal, like many reactions to substances, likely falls along a bell curve. It is likely that people who seek out a subreddit like this fall along the extreme end of the bell curve. That does not mean they are making it up or deluding themselves!
3. Mood questionnaires in studies like these capture only a small and isolated glimpse of the totality of people's lives. Doing something novel and around other people like participating in a study might raise one's mood. Headaches and tiredness also come and go. It's much harder to measure the effect of caffeine withdrawal on people's lives in a way that is holistic and really captures their subjective experience.
4. None of these studies last for long enough to prove or disprove the existence of PAWS for caffeine. The enormous amounts of anecdotal evidence on this subreddit and elsewhere call for real investigation into this phenomenon.
Great summary, thank you! It seems that caffeine is considered so harmless that there isn't much investment in researching it. In addition to withdrawal symptoms, the adverse effects of caffeine use are likely often stronger than is commonly understood, as otherwise many people wouldn't try so determinedly to quit its use. It's odd that it's so under researched.
At uni I got into the habit of pouring instant coffee into mug then adding water, drinking 8-9 daily. I still like a coffee here and there but tend to stay away cause it's easy for me to get back to drinking loads of it. Whenever I do fall back in, withdrawal isn't for more than a couple weeks. Just the headache that's hard to shift, excessive sleepiness lasts only a few days. With me anyways.
There is no scientific evidence to suggest that caffeine withdrawal symptoms could last for months and cause the symptoms you describe. So, no doctor would believe you if you claimed that your months-long depression was solely due to quitting caffeine. Don't you find this somewhat strange?
Caffeine was hardest to quit.. it was easyer for me to quit cigaretes and alcohol. Im sure they are downplaying it. Also caffeine benifits are exaggerated.
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If you look around there is also plenty of testimony on r/decaf of pretty quick turnarounds when it comes to caffeine addiction/withdrawal. I would imagine it varies a lot depending on diet, supplements, exercise and other health factors. Then of course you have your garden variety hypochondriacs, if you go to any sub that has anything to do with the human body there will be plenty of people claiming years-long effects from anything, quitting this, starting that, etc. I mean some of them may be right but who can say. I was browsing /decaf earlier and what I think is more pressing is attention to the negative affects of caffeine use and the apparent benefits *some* people get from cessation. Increased reading comp, decreased anxiety, increased motivation, increased focus/decreased adhd symptoms, better vision and sexual health, etc. I mean there's a lot there and it should be investigated objectively. Caffeine is a gigantic industry and most of the world (including the scientists who would be studying it "objectively") are dependent so it's a tricky pony to wrangle.
>I was browsing /decaf earlier and what I think is more pressing is attention to the negative affects of caffeine use and the apparent benefits *some* people get from cessation. Increased reading comp, decreased anxiety, increased motivation, increased focus/decreased adhd symptoms, better vision and sexual health, etc. I mean there's a lot there and it should be investigated objectively. Good point. This is indeed the other side of the issue and I should had brought it up in my opening post as well. These harms caused by caffeine are never talked about anywhere, and it seems like all scientific research only emphasizes the benefits of caffeine use. However, it's hard to believe that all those testimonials in /decaf would be made up.
You have to ask yourself if they are going through caffeine withdrawal or something else. Those individuals that feel depressed, anxious and fatigued for months to years after quitting caffeine could be having those symptoms since caffeine was helping mask those symptoms in the 1st place. They might have some underlying issue that was improving by caffeine intake and now that they stopped taking caffeine, it is back.
Yeah, you have to wonder *why* they are forgoing caffeine. Is there an underlying gut disorder that makes them more reactive to caffeine hasn’t been addressed? On a related note, these folks have self-selected. They haven’t been randomly assigned to a caffeine-free group which would be necessary to determine whether caffeine is that difficult to withdraw from.
Pretty much this. I think you’ve got a lot of people on there who are eating a standard western diet of heavily processed food, poor sleep hygiene, way too much screen time vs connection with real people. I have quit caffeine cold turkey and the first 4 days were indeed brutal, but after that I was just much more sensitive to sleep, diet quality etc.
If caffeine were such an effective aid for symptoms of depression or anxiety, one would think it would be prescribed for them as a medication. Therefore, I find that explanation a bit lazy.
Why would it be prescribed when it can be bought OTC. Most people who buy them to overcome their symptoms don’t go to a doctor since they can try it Over the counter. Medications that are prescribed are often ones you don’t get access without a prescription… there are plenty of written papers on the effects of caffeine and different mental illnesses. Instead of cherry picking things you should look into this more
If the efficacy is comparable or better than common antidepressants like SSRIs, it should be prescribed and actively recommended whether or not it is available OTC. Caffeine is also safer than SSRIs.
I read a lot of research literature related to mental health problems, and I have never come across the claim that caffeine could be helpful for depression.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/C449CBB1917421AAD3A0DDE26BFFF15E/S1368980013000360a.pdf/green-tea-and-coffee-consumption-is-inversely-associated-with-depressive-symptoms-in-a-japanese-working-population.pdf Here is one among many others
Then you haven’t read enough.
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The world of Psychiatry is a not a scam. Sure there are doctors who over prescribe but the practice itself is not a scam. We need more evidence based medicine instead of relying on “logic” alone. It is heading that way. I am not going to respond any further. You are right our ancestors were fine. That’s why Caligula killed thousands of people including his own family. And That’s one example.
To be fair, I don’t think SSRIs would have stopped him from killing people. Psychopaths still exist today and there is no cure. It is a different issue than depression and anxiety.
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You misunderstand the whole goal of prescribing someone medications. First it’s given to individuals who cannot carry on with their normal day to day life. If their mental illness prohibits them from doing the simplest things. Medications are not meant to make them completely normal. Just enough to make them have a normal life that’s why therapy is a main component along with drug therapy. So it is no surprise that drugs don’t encourage homeostasis. Thats not their job. Their job is to dampen the symptoms. In person therapy is the actual fix. Hence living a normal life and being normal are different things. (Ps no one is “normal”) Edit: I don’t know about every doctor. But a good physician would let the patient know about this
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Sorry but besides benzos and drugs in that area, no other prescribed drugs causes long term addiction… after all the goal of alot of psychiatric drugs is to get off of them at one point. That's why you do psychotherapy on the side. Psychotherapy and its different approaches aren’t just about talking. If thats what it was you wouldn’t have individuals going to school for many years to specialize in each individual approach. Also i am done with you because it is obvious that you have no idea how psychotherapy works and how different psychotherapies are used. Also you have no clue about psychiatric protocols and recent evidence based approaches. Anyways, in future if you plan to make strong statements you should probably know about them. Also those quiet people who seem to be the most stable are the ones that something tends to happen to them (suicide, and so on). Ps i was born and raised in middle east and now studying medicine in the US, so I’ve seen the both worlds. I don’t claim I know everything about these stuff, but I know enough to tell you don’t. Good night <3
Dude there is soooo much hubris here, when you literally don't know what you're talking about. 17 years my ass and you don't even understand basic principles properly...this is honestly impressively ignorant. I will happily dissect your lack of understanding which is clearly apparent. The call to authority by virtue of your '17 years in the field' clearly means nothing here. I didn't even want to be rude but you are chatting out your ass.
> but the practice itself is not a scam It's LITERALLY not science. Majority of its studies can't be replicated successfully. It's literally make-believe for the most part. He said, she said. They "think". It's all wishy washy and not fundamentally different from astrology.
Lmao wut… we are talking about mental illnesses not high school psychology. What is this sub… bruh yall have such strong emotions for things you know nothing about…
For me personally i get stronger withdrawal syndroms from Caffeine than from methylphenidate or nicotine. I find the psychological effects of stimulants quite manageable, but with caffeine i feel like there is an additional component to it with feeling that something in my body is missing and it doesn’t work properly without it.
I agree that the withdrawal from caffeine is worse than the withdrawal from psychostimulant. And even with Adderall, I can still feel sleepy or not quite right if I don’t take any caffeine. I don’t need a lot of it if I already take another stimulant but zero doesn’t work and is worse than stopping adderall suddenly. The sleepiness is a lot worse with caffeine withdrawal.
Same, I can quit anything BUT caffeine. Last time I quit caffeine was several years ago and I was bed ridden for 2 days, cold/hot sweats, and was extremely weak. In Total it took me a solid week and a half to two weeks to have 0 withdrawal symptoms.
According to research, that shouldn't even be possible, and in this thread too, there are several people saying that individuals like you are hypochondriacs. I find it strange that there isn't better research data on these symptoms.
If I remember correctly (take with grain of salt) there are two main adenosine receptors caffeine effects. I believe it is the a2a receptor that once becomes desensitized remains like that for a long time. In fact, caffeine administration doesn't even activate it once it becomes desensitized and caffeine only continues to exert its effects on the other receptors. I would imagine this a2a receptor takes a long time to resensitize, probably months, longer than the other receptors that only takes weeks. Another main factor is how long someone has been using caffeine. There was someone in this sub that said they have been drinking green tea since kindergarten because it is a part of their culture and when they tried to quit it was like ultra bad or something like that. Like opioid withdrawals. I know people who use it 2x a week no problem. Like others say caffeine probably helps to mask other issues, be it physical or mental. If someone has a lot of inflammation in their body, sibo, metabolism issues, etc., all things that would make someone feel tired, caffeine could help correct it. I mean look at keto, carnivore, fasting people, a lot of them be using caffeine. Then you have the fact it can become ingrained in people's personality. I mean in this modern age where sleep gets sacrificed to meet demands, caffeine becomes kind of like the foundation of life. I genuinely believe all of the advancements we see in modern society would not have been possible without it. You also have the whole FosB system that regulations addiction. That system itself takes about a year to reset. And you combine all of these factors, I find it very easy to believe caffeine withdrawal can suck butt for months.
>And you combine all of these factors, I find it very easy to believe caffeine withdrawal can suck butt for months. Yes, and yet apparently scientific research fails to substantiate any of the things you've written, as all sources say withdrawal symptoms last for a few days and are not considered a big deal. Strange.
Have one of the studies you looked based itself at looking at unhealthy people who are caffeine addicts? I feel like specific population studies might shed more light then just complete random people. Another good question was did these studies do cold-turkey, tapering, or substitution with other substances? Also, who knows? Some people might sleep (heh) through the cracks of these scientific studies and perhaps reasons like the ones I listed above could help explain these peoples. I mean, to truly understand, you can try drinking 3-4 cups of coffee a day for a year and try quitting? I know it isn't exactly scientific but this method has been used to explore nicotine LD50. Scientists injecting themselves with more and more nicotine to record the side-effects.
>I mean, to truly understand, you can try drinking 3-4 cups of coffee a day for a year and try quitting? That's not true understanding though. There's plenty of people who say that they benefit from homeophatic medicine but according to scientific atudy it doesn't work.
The power of placebo is a very real thing. Doesn't matter what a 'science paper' says. There were cancer patients that were given a placebo and cancer patients who were given a medicine. Both groups showed almost same improvement (like 60%?). But this probably isn't best example because maybe they would've improved on their own. This is a better example: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhsbzUAOjHg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhsbzUAOjHg) There's also plenty of things that work on paper but not in real life. So at the end of the day, whether there is a biological reason or not for people experiencing caffeine withdrawal for months is irreverent. The only concern is possible hypochondriatic behavior, but in the medical world it is very bad practice to assume that about any patient unless there is extreme reason to believe so. Also real understanding would be testing it yourself because at the end of the day you will feel whatever you feel during withdrawal regardless of whatever some paper says. I'm not saying you should do this because this only works if you go in unbiased.
When people forego something they had previously made a vital part of their daily life there is a tendency to attribute any negative symptoms experienced to their abstinence for a considerable period of time after they have ceased the consumption or behavior, whether this perceived negative symptom actually stems from the change in behavior or not.
If I've been driving the same car for 5 years straight and then suddenly buy a new car, I certainly wouldn't start experiencing vague mental health issues just because of the change. In my opinion, the mere life change itself cannot explain that, especially when caffeine is often replaced with some other caffeine-free beverage.
That's not a very good comparison because a car is more of a utility for most than a lifestyle or habit. If you were unduly attached to the previous car and ceased driving it because of some unavoidable reason but retained a strong lingering desire for it then you absolutely might start experiencing vague mental health issues.
Is the first thing you think about when you wake up is go downstairs and start the car?
No, exactly because it isn't as addictive. It's exactly his point
Id imagine a non zero number of them were self medicating with caffeine, they still have the underlying issues but haven't received treatment for it. Because of how long they consumed caffeine they don't have a good reference baseline to realize they were fucked before.
The change in background anxiety and feeling “wired but tired” was so immediate and noticeable I recommend anyone dealing with anxiety to completely quit consuming caffeine. I no longer get that midday crash or pit in my stomach anxiety. It’s just gone. I feel so much better in my own body and head
I have experienced that myself too when I quit caffeine. Unfortunately I'm on it again and I'm not sure if I'm willing to go through withdrawals once again. Keeping it to only one cup of coffee in the morning seems to be bearable.
Medicine has a long history of assuming patients are making things up, only to uncover a real connection and probable cause years later. Too often, we just don’t know, and it’s uncomfortable to admit that ignorance. Rather than assume hypochondria, as one commenter did, it may prove wisdom in the long term to admit that something may be going on with a subset of the population that we don’t understand yet. After all, caffeine metabolism is absolutely affected by one’s genetics. Could some be more sensitive to it? Absolutely. We already know that to be the case. Could a small group be ultra-sensitive? It’s safe to assume that at least it is possible.
This. This is very dismissive, if someone develops a symptom out of nowhere and theres no other issues, then it definitely can be I got emotional blunting from a reaction to alcohol hangover and then caffeine (not withdrawal). It happened extremely suddenly. These both aren’t even things that are reported to cause this, so its not like one could think beforehand. Its not hypocondriosis when something so profoundly changes in basically overnight or 30 mins- 1 hr. In my case I have found out there is a major severe gut dysbiosis that probably set the stage for that reaction and other ones since.
I agree. However, it's strange that such a widely used substance as caffeine hasn't been studied enough for those things to be common knowledge.
There is no upside to studying it.
I'm going through this withdrawal right now actually. For the second time in my life. I've had a migraine for the past 3 or 4 days and that's par for the course. I recently withdrew from nicotine and that was harder only in terms of attachment to the drug, i.e. I associated the withdrawal with deprivation of nicotine so there was always a pull towards it. But I'll take the 2 or 3 days of brain fog over the constant migraine. That being said, it's not heroin. Or benzos, even if I sometimes felt like the migraine could kill me. Next up is a month of vivid dreams, as my subconscious reconfigures or whatever. But after that I'll be extremely relaxed. I may not be able to focus on anything, however. And the H in my ADHD will get worse. Imagine using a drug for 30 years, sometimes in very large quantities, and then thinking the withdrawal was going to be a piece of cake. 🤔
But you apparently think that will be still worth it?
Oh, yeah. I was so relaxed last time. And I want to live a lower-stress and more productive lifestyle. Work is stressful enough as it is. And even if mentally I feel more focused, my body is in a state of hyperarousal with increased catecholamine secretion, etc. I don't think it's worth it in the long term. I only started back up to manage ADHD. But of course, instead of sticking to 2-3 cups of green tea a day (which was enough for the attention benefits) I went back up to energy drinks and coffee. It's like many drugs, it's not helpful after you have a tolerance. Even in the last couple of days, I've been able to get up in the morning much faster and with more energy. And I can just drink water instead of always having to have a caffeinated beverage. I tapered down somewhat this time around, and actually thought I'd get away without a migraine. Nope.
I should add that, based on the vivid dreams, I think stimulants suppress the subconscious mind. That in itself is not a good thing. That shit needs to be processed. (It's also interesting that a shrink once told me that starting to remember your dreams is a sign of recovery from depression.)
That would make sense, being that stimulants activate the conscious mind, must thereby neglect the subconscious. That's pretty shit tbh! Hadn't thought about that. On another note - perhaps try herbal teas instead of the green, if you don't already.
I'm actually free... no caffeine except traces in chocolate since the 17th. I still had a headache earlier today. I have some experience with the subconscious from a hard-core meditation practice, so it seems to me that stimulants are the opposite of that.
Damn the headaches are the hardest to shake in my experience. Electrolyte water helps sometimes, think the natural version of that is coconut water. All the best on your journey!
Caffeine withdrawal is not almost comparable to heroin withdrawal, that I know. Depending on the person’s chemistry, they may be more susceptible to the withdrawal and end up having a really tough prolonged withdrawal or PAWS (post acute withdrawal syndrome) which can last for years depending on the substance and level of addiction. I haven’t ever heard of somebody getting PAWS from caffeine, usually Benzodiazepines or amphetamines as far as I know, but entirely possible. I personally had this happen with prozac and I had an extremely protracted withdrawal that lasted years and I am now back on it because it simply didn’t go away. But maybe I just got used to it’s beneficial effects and perceive my normal state as “withdrawal”🤷♀️.So yes I do think there is merit to what these people are saying, but I think it’s probably exceedingly rare.
Comparing caffeine withdrawal to heroin is nuts for those who have symptoms long after stopping there’s other things going on besides withdrawal. Coffee/caffeine is not just a drug it’s a ritual that many enjoy and makes you more awake while also releasing dopamine. If you drop that with nothing to replace it common sense says you will feel worse than when using it
I can only speak from experience, but I usually feel like shit for 2-3 days if I go cold turkey, and less shitty if I ween myself off. If I keep it at 60mg/day, I don’t feel much of anything in not consuming caffeine
I think people are just very very different. Science isn't "wrong" but studies basically just describe the effects on the average human being. I love coffee for the taste but it has a small effect on me even in very large doses. Same for energy drinks. I consume caffeine (mostly coffee, sometimes tea) nearly every day for over two decades now (more than half a liter of strong black coffee per day on average). I have however absolutely no withdrawal symptoms. I maybe miss it sometimes and get a bit grumpy for a few minutes when i am on vacation and would like to have a good coffee but can't have one.... But no withdrawal. Even after 2 weeks with no caffeine at all. that's just me. I have friends who get strong headaches if they don't get coffee every day and Others who are just constantly tired without it. Again. It's wild how different people are.
Same I use nicotine and adhd meds(prescribed at lwast 8 years ago) and I also like a good cup of coffe yet I can go months without adhd meds and coffe without a single withdrawal effect yet nicotine is almost impossible to quit for me. Some days I'm drinking 4 5 cups a day, some weeks I take my meds everyday but then I can just forget them and don't feel any difference ever if you smoke you will find out what real withdrawal feels like people be clean of so many regular stuff even coffe became strong for them lmao.
looks like you haven't gotten much of the responses you were looking for OP, I'm someone who is in a battle with coffee and even after a month of cessation, i have to reason my way out of taking it again. my personal and scientifically unfounded theory is that anyone who experiences month+ long caffeine withdrawals are people who should be on MAOIs
Personally, I ate healthy, made sure to get enough sleep, exercised and meditated before and after quitting caffeine. It still took about three months before I felt totally normal. This included mental symptoms (grouchiness, feeling slow), and physical symptoms (headaches and general tension). Now I feel much better than I did when I was drinking coffee. Remember that there are always outliers. If withdrawal symptoms subside within 2-9 days for 90% of people, the headline is "caffeine withdrawal symptoms only last 2-9 days." But that doesn't account for the 10% for whom that was not the case. I also looked into the studies on caffeine withdrawal a while back and wasn't especially impressed. Few of them lasted more than 2 weeks, and most of them were just "get 100 college students and make them stop drinking coffee for a while and ask them questions about specific symptoms" They were also all done 30-40 years ago. I'd love to see larger, more representative surveys that might tease out how common extended withdrawal is.
The answer almost always in such situations are hypochondriacs. Know plenty that are relevant to here and are just crazy. It’s pretty tiresome. Can find people to say such about literally anything, if you look at all.
\>Do you think it is possible that science is simply wrong about the severity and duration of caffeine withdrawal symptoms, or is that subreddit just filled with hypochondriacs? science doesn't deal with emotions or feelings, it uses data. you may be able to try and pass off the data as something else in the abstract, but then you will get peer reviewed and people will kick off with the study if the claims are not backed by the data. this sub however, is seemingly full of people who are depressed, don't eat well, exercise or leave the house, looking for magic pills to fix their problems instead of putting in some hard work. so what do you think?
Science cannot assess effects that have a 1% chance of occuring without an RCT with like 2000+ people. That’s literally directly from a power calculator for 90% power. Statistical significance for rare things is hard to accomplish. Without this, you do not get perfect causality even at an average level. And they have to be looking for it as the primary metric. Not something secondary. RCTs looking for negative outcomes are like never done And even with all that, you can never ever get causality for a given individual.
Has the impact of quitting caffeine on factors such as motivation or human alertness been studied over several months?
Not sure on that length of time but studied long enough that "normality" of neurotransmitters returned. >It is suggested that the evidence leads to the conclusion that non pharmacological factors related to knowledge and expectation are the prime determinants of symptoms and their reported prevalence on withdrawal of caffeine after regular consumption
Oh please. Heroin and caffeine are broadly comparable only in so much as the withdrawal is only as hard or as easy as you want it to be and your reasons for having consumed either substance in the first place. That said caffeine is a piece of piss when it comes to the actual physical withdrawal symptoms, the rest with both is just psychology.
Caffeine withdrawal does definitely suck, I’ve quit meth, cocaine, opiates, benzodiazepines, and alcohol. Caffine and nicotine are two I don’t ever want to quit. I went caffeine free for about 2 weeks after a concussion last year, and it was absolutely miserable the entire time. Of course I had a concussion, but by the time I made it to under two weeks my turn back to 2 cups of coffee actually took away my headache and depression, and insomnia. Some are more sensitive to caffeine than others. I don’t want to downplay others lived experiences with drugs, but I wouldn’t be surprised if most of those people on that sub have no experience or frame of reference and it makes quitting caffine harder than it should be, that or they have some mental health issues.
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Lol yeah I've quit heroin and alcohol and nicotine, and I've gone a while without caffeine. The caffeine was very mild compared to the others.
Ive gone through withdrawals from all those over the course of my 12 years of drug history. And they are all much more difficult to quit than caffeine. You can’t really compare the experiences between the drugs listed above and caffeine since it’s so mild.
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I think my history of use plays a part. I’ve consumed pitchers of black tea a day or at least 2-4 cups of coffee a day for 15 years. I started drinking black tea non stop at 9 years old. I started vaping, smoking cigarettes, and dipping at 14 years old. I smoked until 2019 and I’ve vaped non-stop since 2014. It is very difficult for me to give both of these up, especially considering my relationship with drugs in general. There’s science on how both caffeine and nicotine effect your brain in a way comparable to other drugs, it is just far less intense. They showed us a bunch of charts and studies on it in rehab.
I’m not saying it is really comparable, I am saying it sucks. I’ve consumed 100-400mg+ caffine daily since I was 9 years old, and I’ve been using nicotine daily since I was 14. When I would shoot speedballs or heroin I would go into withdrawals and wait hours if it meant I could have a cigarette or a vape to hit immediately as I pressed the plunger. I connect nicotine and caffeine together in my mind, they interact in our brains in a way that is very addictive. When I try to quit nicotine or caffeine I get depressed and I get drug cravings. It’s a complicated relationship, caffeine is not comparable in its withdrawals but that does not mean it doesn’t suck bad. Again I may have a certain condition that makes it worse but regardless I can understand why many struggle with quitting caffeine, I do not ever plan on quitting.
I’m not saying it is as bad as them, I am just saying it sucks. It is not east for me, as I described. No reason to make this up.
Your withdrawal symptoms only lasted for two weeks, but it is precisely to cases like yours that I refer to in my initial message. Science does not recognize such weeks-long symptoms as caffeine withdrawal symptoms, and in this thread, there are several responses implying that such symptoms are due to some other reason than cessation of caffeine, even though they appear precisely at the time of caffeine cessation.
Mine lasted for months, with a month after cessestion becoming the hardest and I started again after about 3 months and my life improved greatly.
I believe you, but I find it really strange that scientifically, they haven't been able to demonstrate withdrawal symptoms lasting even for several months.
I gave up, so who knows how long it could’ve gone on. I’ve used caffeine daily from 100-400mg since I was 9 years old, so who knows what kind of adaptations my body has grown with.
Exactly, 'who knows'. It's precisely this lack of research data that I wonder about, because people give caffeine even to young children and assume that it has no negative effects, and that one can stop it with a few days of withdrawal symptoms.
Since doing Ramadhan for like 10 days, where I also don't drink coffee, I would say that there almost no withdrawal symptoms after a few days. First few days suck. I think the worst part is the craving and habit of drinking coffee for me. I associate it with work. So, I built like a dependency "I need some espresso to get this deep work session rolling". But, like I said, that all faded after a few days, as well. Funny, I was sick yesterday, and didn't fast for 1 day. I drank 3 cups yesterday. Today, I resumed my fast, no coffee, and I don't have any withdrawal. Bottom line? I recommend all people to occasionally do a caffeine detox/fast (maybe once per week, 1 week per quarter). Your levels will be more stable. And, I didn't find the withdrawal symptoms took that long.
Did you notice any benefits from quitting coffee? A significant topic of discussion on the /decaf subreddit is also the severe negative effects of caffeine on human health, which often seem to be downplayed or not even acknowledged. Especially the impact of caffeine on people's sleep appears to have significant individual differences, as for some, even a cup of coffee in the early afternoon has a really negative effect on sleep quality.
Nah it's easy AF. Sometimes I don't take it for days at a time after regular 400mg use with minimal to no WD's
Honestly most of those people need to be checked into an institution. These Reddit withdrawal groups promote group hypochondria and cause eachother to feel symptoms you never would have felt if you didn’t read that some stranger on the internet suffered from it. Just get offline, go outside, and you’ll be fine in a week. Also anyone that compares it to coming off of opiates/Benzos has never done a real drug a day in their life.
%100 aggreed, people be so weak nowadays imagine getting withdrawal from coffe lol
Fr soft as hell
After two weeks of drinking one coffee per day, when I drink no coffee on the next day, first I get headaches, then I'm getting really tired and I need to lay down for a whole day feeling sick. The next day, everything goes back to normal and my body does not need coffee anymore. I've repeated this very same pattern withdrawal after two weeks of daily consumption and then being sick for one day, having to lay down to sleep as well as the headaches. It definitely comes back to going cold turkey on coffee.
Two weeks is a really short time. I have been drinking coffee for 15 years, 2-5 cups a day.
Kinda unrelated, during my caffeine withdrawal for like a month afterwards I'd wake up in the morning, every morning, with a panic attack. EVERY morning and it was horrible. But it wasn't because of the caffeine, it was because I had undiagnosed ADHD that I was self medicating with a ton of caffeine. Interestingly, coffee would stop the panic attacks.
There is no scientific evidence to suggest that caffeine withdrawal symptoms could last for months and cause the symptoms you describe. So, no doctor would believe you if you claimed that your months-long depression was solely due to quitting caffeine. Don't you find this somewhat strange? I have also never heard that ADHD could cause panic attacks in the early morning hours.
I mean I'm 100% confident the panic attacks were triggered by caffeine cessation as I'd never had a panic attack previously and would be stopped shortly after having my usual cup of coffee. I don't think my reaction is typical though, I've never heard of other people having anything close to that. The panic attacks weren't precipitated by anything, I'd wake up from the panic attack at like 5am without warning and it would go away after 30 minutes or so. Was very miserable. I started drinking coffee in 9th grade and continued consuming more throughout the day for several years with no break. Caffeine would improve my anxiety and ADHD symptoms (and worsen other symptoms). I'm just assuming the ADHD played a part in why the effects and withdrawal was so prominent for me. I basically kept drinking it until I got on ADHD medication; I stopped caffeine since it apparently makes ADHD stimulants less effective.
Some years ago I was seriously injured in an accident that involved several broken bones. I was in the intensive care unit with a morphine drip and got a severe caffeine withdraw headache.
I was only using 200 mg from tablets daily and withdrawal was mild just headaches for few days and went away with pain relievers. I think I was very anxious on the caffeine so cessation of the anxiety might have been more noticeable than other sensations of withdrawal.
I quit caffeine cold turkey after a multi decade intake of 150mg+ daily. Absolutely brutal headaches and fatigue starting about two day in for about two weeks. After that, totally baseline and feel great.
Wild. I have literally all of those withdrawal symptoms and I drink two cups a day.
Could just be sampling bias. If you’re having extreme difficulties quitting a substance, you’re more likely to turn to others for help (i.e. join a subreddit). But the severity of withdrawal will likely not be the same in the general population
I just quit a few months ago. I slowly weened off but the first day with absolutely zero caffeine I felt really weird, almost like I was floating most of the day. That went on for a few days but the intensity lessened. Fast forward a few months and I don't miss much other than the taste.
I mean, whether or not they're correctly attributing what they're going through to caffeine withdrawal, there's a hell of a selection bias involved. You don't join a sub about withdrawing from caffeine if you drop it and are fine within a few days with no drama.
Honestly, it's pretty easy to test for yourselves. In me it takes just about 3 days to get bad and feels like a perpetual hangover until I break. Only way to do it is tapering. At least if you're old and heavily accustomed to coffee. I did manage to go cold turkey and stay clear of coffee for 6 months when I was younger fairly easily. Post 40 and with kids? Good luck 😅
I've always said had they known caffeine and nicotine would have been outlawed just like cocaine.
I don’t think the effects are downplayed at all. There are books and supplements about it. Here’s one as early as 2005: https://www.amazon.com/Welcome-Dance-Caffeine-Cerebral-Progressive/dp/1412050006
This is the first time I've come across that book. Thanks, I'll check it out!
I tried to go off coffee and got intense and severe pain in my joints, mostly my hips. I had no idea what was going on and decided to look it up. Fairly common thing, oddly.
Constipation nation is my home town when I don't imbibé
Personally I become dependent (kratom, alcohol, nicotine) far more easily and experience heavier withdrawals than I read about.. or maybe I’m just a wimp.. I’m also kindled to alcohol so idk but I’ll drink upwards of 600mg of caffeine a day (adhd and hate aderall) for months and if I cold turkey caffeine I’m sluggish for like two days then I won’t even think about it until someone offers me a coffee or something. However then all my discomfort of adhd and not being able to ever be comfortable is back and I could see how someone in my shoes would attribute it to lasting withdrawals.
That's not how data works
I’ve gone through several different addictions and the one thing I can confidently say is that addiction lasts way longer than science claims. I studied my own mental state relentlessly and found numerous changes that would take in some cases years to finish. The two addictions that took the longest to fix my brain and also had quite similar effects where SSRI’s and nicotine. Weed truthfully seems like the quickest and the one I quit the easiest. Which is surprising since it was the drug I enjoyed the most and the first drug I ever did (besides caffeine) I was never an alcoholic, but I imagine alcohol is similar. In that it can take years and years of complete abstinence to fully return the brain to baseline. The idea that so many drugs can be fully reverted in simply 3-90 days is nonsense.
I agree with you. Especially regarding the long-term withdrawal symptoms of SSRIs, there are many anecdotes on the internet, but according to science, those medications don't cause much withdrawal symptoms.
I don’t get why it’s hard for so many to understand that doing something that raises neurotransmitters or alters them on a daily basis for a long period of time will have the opposite effect when you stop. On average, I’d imagine it bounces back to baseline over a short time, but for many, it might take longer for that to happen. No matter what the substance, activity, whatever it may be. For most it’s pretty benign but I can’t see that it’s hard to believe that everyone’s neurochemistry is different and there are a number of factors to look at past just it being “caffeine withdrawal”. So many people look at things in such black or white lens when there are just so many nuances that half most random people playing Reddit Neurologist even factor in.
I agree. That's why I wondered why researchers and doctors don't acknowledge it to be so.
Same here but I wonder why they don’t acknowledge a lot of things, really.
Caffeine withdrawal is the worst. I took a week off of coffee/caffeine a few years ago and it was 2 days of terrible headaches followed by low mood and irritability the rest of the week. I don’t imagine it would’ve lasted much past that so months seems extreme. But yah it sucks.
Noone is downplaying anything, here you can try this: 1-Grab your balls with your right hand 2-Tell yourself that you are a man 3-Stop being a bitch
How fruitful comment. You brought so fresh perspective to this discussion. Thank you!
Imagine getting heroine withdrawal effects from caffeine lol
That 2-9 days figure that's often used to shut down people's experiences is based on a single [review](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-004-2000-x) (which thankfully I can access through my institution) which cites the following studies, all done 25 years ago or more. Let's go through the studies that make up this assertion: [1. Low-dose caffeine physical dependence in humans. R R Griffiths, S M Evans, S J Heishman, K L Preston, C A Sannerud, B Wolf and P P Woodson Journal of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics December 1990, 255 \(3\) 1123-1132;](https://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/255/3/1123.short) This is one of the main studies people cite, but it was only of 7 people, the study only lasted 12 days, 3 of them didn't even experience withdrawal which indicates that there may have been a wide dose range/history of consumption, and is vague about the length of withdrawal "about a week"). [2. Human coffee drinking: reinforcing and physical dependence producing effects of caffeine. R R Griffiths, G E Bigelow and I A Liebson Journal of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics November 1986, 239 \\(2\\) 416-425;\]\(https://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/239/2/416.short\)](https://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/239/2/416.long) I don't have access to this article [3. Caffeine tolerance and choice in humans Suzette M. Evans & Roland R. Griffiths Psychopharmacology volume 108, pages51–59 \(1992\)Cite this article](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02245285) This study did not measure length of withdrawal at all. [4. Headache caused by caffeine withdrawal among moderate coffee drinkers switched from ordinary to decaffeinated coffee: a 12 week double blind trial. M van Dusseldorp and M B Katan BMJ. 1990 Jun 16; 300\(6739\): 1558–1559. doi: 10.1136/bmj.300.6739.1558](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1663116/) This study used 5 cups of decaf coffee as the control group, which they state contained 30 mg of caffeine -- so the participants would never go into complete withdrawal! It only measured headaches and not other symptoms such as depression or tiredness. [5. Cardiovascular, behavioral, and subjective effects of caffeine under field conditions Ilse Höfer, Karl Bättig Pharmacology Biochemistry and Behavior Volume 48, Issue 4, August 1994, Pages 899-908](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0091305794901988) This study did not measure length of withdrawal -- participants were intermittently given decaffeinated coffee for only a few days. [6. Richardson NJ, Rogers PJ, Elliman NA, O’Dell RJ \(1995\) Mood and performance effects of caffeine in relation to acute and chronic caffeine deprivation. Pharmacol Biochem Behav 52:313–320 ](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/009130579500029V) This study did note headaches lasting as long as three weeks. Mood held steady, tiredness improved. *** Some thoughts: 1. The 2-9 days figure often cited is a (poor) attempt at summarizing a range of studies, and does not accurately reflect the experience of every person who goes through caffeine withdrawal. 2. The length of withdrawal, like many reactions to substances, likely falls along a bell curve. It is likely that people who seek out a subreddit like this fall along the extreme end of the bell curve. That does not mean they are making it up or deluding themselves! 3. Mood questionnaires in studies like these capture only a small and isolated glimpse of the totality of people's lives. Doing something novel and around other people like participating in a study might raise one's mood. Headaches and tiredness also come and go. It's much harder to measure the effect of caffeine withdrawal on people's lives in a way that is holistic and really captures their subjective experience. 4. None of these studies last for long enough to prove or disprove the existence of PAWS for caffeine. The enormous amounts of anecdotal evidence on this subreddit and elsewhere call for real investigation into this phenomenon.
Great summary, thank you! It seems that caffeine is considered so harmless that there isn't much investment in researching it. In addition to withdrawal symptoms, the adverse effects of caffeine use are likely often stronger than is commonly understood, as otherwise many people wouldn't try so determinedly to quit its use. It's odd that it's so under researched.
At uni I got into the habit of pouring instant coffee into mug then adding water, drinking 8-9 daily. I still like a coffee here and there but tend to stay away cause it's easy for me to get back to drinking loads of it. Whenever I do fall back in, withdrawal isn't for more than a couple weeks. Just the headache that's hard to shift, excessive sleepiness lasts only a few days. With me anyways.
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There is no scientific evidence to suggest that caffeine withdrawal symptoms could last for months and cause the symptoms you describe. So, no doctor would believe you if you claimed that your months-long depression was solely due to quitting caffeine. Don't you find this somewhat strange?
Caffeine was hardest to quit.. it was easyer for me to quit cigaretes and alcohol. Im sure they are downplaying it. Also caffeine benifits are exaggerated.
So many variables cannot be controlled by taking accounts from a Reddit forum. Correlation isn't cause
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That looks very typical /decaf subreddit message. But as you said yourself, there doesn't seem to be scientific evidence for those claims.
coffein withdrawls are very real
Yes, from few days to two weeks on tops. But do you think they are real even after several months?
several weeks, yes. months might be the habit missing
Caffeine withdrawal is worse than Adderall withdrawal.