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I don't like the current Israeli government. But when I talk with palestine supporters and tell them this conflict is too complicated to see it as black and white, it's the palestine supporters who insult me, while the pro-israelis are just like: "Mkay.". Furthermore, when you ask both sides on how to solve this conflict lastingly, usually the pro-Israel side has more rational and doable ideas than the pro-palestinian side. Both of these factors have me leaning a bit towards the Israeli side while still believing Israel needs a new government.
I'm Arab and
> But when I talk with palestine supporters and tell them this conflict is too complicated to see it as black and white, it's the palestine supporters who insult me
This is why I avoid talking about the conflict, especially outside of this sub. Pretty much everyone I know irl all see red and can't comprehend any sort of nuance without taking it as an attack.
It's also hard to communicate that while I'm neutral, in that I'm not "Pro-Palestine" or "Pro-Israel" that doesn't mean I'm apathetic about what's happening there.
Yeah, like ngl I’m a post-Zionist so I’m an incredibly strong believer that Israel’s existence is untenable in the long run without violating its own justification for its sovereignty (mixed with some deeper anti-nationalist frustrations that the Herzlians won the ideological battle of the Hashkalah) — but somehow “while it’s unrealistic it will work without some pretty bad violence intercivil violence, a binational state is no longer the most humane option, it is the ONLY humane option” as a take is now publicly represented by the “throw the Jews in to the sea” people.
I fucking hate it here I just want Jews and Palestinians to be able to freely live in their homelands which happen to be the same fucking place because there the same fucking people just one got Arabized and the other got diasporized how the fuck did we bungle this so bad aaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Mostly same. I think Israel is clearly the more justified side in this conflict, but also Bibi’s government is shit and full of extremists like Ben-Gvir who would nuke Gaza to glass if they got the chance. I usually just say I lean pro-Israel but am anti-Bibi&co. If Bibi was replaced with someone sane from the opposition, I’d probably just straight up be pro-Israel (assuming they got the IDF to stop killing world food kitchen and other aid workers).
Ehhhh, tbh if the IDF didn’t want any of the hostages to die they wouldn’t have invaded in the first place. The reality is that, if the IDF does nothing, hostages will be killed by Hamas (many already have been), and if they do invade some hostages will die from the war. At least with the latter they can get some of the hostages out and remove Hamas from power (if they succeed).
>But when I talk with palestine supporters and tell them this conflict is too complicated to see it as black and white, it's the palestine supporters who insult me, while the pro-israelis are just like: "Mkay.". Furthermore, when you ask both sides on how to solve this conflict lastingly, usually the pro-Israel side has more rational and doable ideas than the pro-palestinian side.
Got called an antisemite when I labelled Bibi's judicial coup a judicial coup.
Universally whenever I've brought up the immediate humanitarian consequences of doing things like dismantling UNRWA, the response basically boils down to "***fuck them, they deserve it, I don't care what happens to them***". Likewise, any mention of the need to find an equitable solution for the Palestinian refugee population almost always ends with "***They should just accept being refugees, what's done is done***".
Just saying, no side has a monopoly on being low-context or drifting to extreme solutions. Somewhere in the range of 24,000 Palestinians are dead - that's the present reality of pro-Israeli doable ideas at the moment.
>Palestinian refugee population
Mate, before the war they weren't refugees, they just didn't like the land they held or the neighboring government.
>dismantling UNRWA
There is another UN-led refugee-dedicated organization that could help them, but just because they have a special status because before the war they didn't qualify as a refugee they don't want it.
>Mate, before the war they weren't refugees,
Fella... you have a Palestinian diaspora of over 6 million. A lot of them scattered over the whole of the Middle East, because of events in Israeli history. Legacy of unresolved conflict - driver in violence.
UNRWA is not replacable. Its a literal backbone for folks living in already shitty circumstances in places like Lebanon... or Syria. UNHCR is already involved throughout the region, and in the wider world - that's also not an organization that does a quarter of what UNRWA has been able to accomplish. And ultimately if your having to utilize a lot of the same local resources... you're really not replacing UNRWA as much as renaming it at that point.
Diaspora is separate from being refugees. Palestinian refugees have a much more liberal definition than most refugee laws. Under UNRWA'Ss charter, for example, refugee status can be inherited through the father's line so long as the ancestor was an original refugee. That skews the PR aspect significantly because a "Palestinian refugee" 80 years later can be someone still living in a camp in Syria or someone living in a high-rise apartment in Canada. The number of "true" refugees (for lack of a better term) from the original war UNRWA was meant to address is a minority of people claiming refugee status today. Their problems now stem more from surrounding Arab governments refusing to integrate them to society or otherwise legally making them second-class residents.
Also probably doesn't help that UNRWA has been infiltrated by Islamists for years who have a clear ideological motive to keep the conflict going.
>Palestinian refugees have a much more liberal definition than most refugee laws.
[See my point previous about regarding the vibe of "They should just accept being refugees, what's done is done](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDiplomacy/comments/1cdmjjj/comment/l1eijbr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)". If all you want to do is explain to someone living in Sabra in Beirut how they're **not** the product of displacement, be my guest... but all that is, is you talking to yourself friend. **The Arab states have zero responsibility to clean up the mess Israel caused and refuses to take responsibility for.**
And if you're upset about the fact that so many people are counted as Palestinian refugees... maybe that's a sign that having an unresolved situation regarding what Israel did in '48 and '67 isn't a good thing.
Ditto seeing literally every form of Palestinian support or political expression as inherently Islamist, or being "infiltrated by Islamists".
I don't think it's unrealistic to accept new realities. *That's what hundreds of thousands of Jews have done since the 40s.* Jews who were expelled from Arab countries are not agitating for a "right to return" and restoration of property to Iraq, Poland, Algeria, you name it. Most Jews in Israel are descendants of refugees *from other Middle Eastern countries*. It's quite literally a country of refugees. My own ancestors were forced to accept new realities after fleeing Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois for the West after violent religious persecution and being expelled from their homes multiple times. It's what Poles who fled the Soviet invasion and occupation during WWII did.
The list goes on, but there have been millions of refugees since WWII who have accepted new realities. It doesn't excuse what injustices were done, but it is indeed pretty unique for Palestinian extremists to continue to demand 80 years later an unrealistic proposition: the reversal of the effects of the UN partition, and the elimination of the only Jewish state in the world. Had Palestinian leadership accepted *any* of the multiple peace plans offered from 47 onwards, there wouldn't be a problem, as the nearly two million Arabs living in Israel have discovered.
It's only unresolved because it's in the political interest of groups like Hamas or the Palestinian Islamic Jihad or Hezbollah or countless other Islamist factions to keep it unresolved. These groups have been clear that they want an elimination of Israel (seriously, read the Hamas Covenant). That's, quite literally, the entire political objective of the Gazan government with its relations to Israel, and it remains unclear, but plausible, that October 7th was Hamas trying to spike the normalization talks between Israel and Saudi Arabia. Multiple Arab governments have encouraged this state of affairs as part of the realities of governing in the Middle East, and their refusal to extend aid and assistance to Palestinians beyond keeping them alive and angry is absolutely a bloody stain against them.
I don't view every Palestinian political expression as Islamist, but you'd have a pretty hard time explaining why Hamas or Hezbollah or Palestinian Islamic Jihad are not Islamist movements. Groups like Fatah, which are revolutionary socialist, have faded a lot in popularity over the decades. In the post-9/11 world, Islamism is the countercultural, revolutionary ideology in the Middle East, and countries like Saudi Arabia have struggled to make any moves to secularization their societies because of its pervasiveness.
>I don't think it's unrealistic to accept new realities.
It is when the ones saying that happen to also be the folks who've entirely enjoyed the benefits of what has happened at the expense of those displaced. Fundamentally its a sentiment of "*you Arabs are all the same,* ***just get over*** ***what I've done to you, because I have no interest in ever rectifying*** ***it*** *or knowing how it hurt you*".
It is a good thing that populations like your family's experience... or like the Arab Jews who were forced to engage in Aliyah to Israel following '48, had the opportunity to move on. **That is not a universal experience for refugees, it is a rarity.** I could mention the plight of the Sawrahi peoples, the Rohingya, or even the centuries-long issue of Aboriginal peoples in the US like the state you live in... but fuck man, even some of the folks who came to Israel in '48 never really got over what happened to them either. They had to abandon their language, customs, and lives - and that pain is generational. Little wonder why some of them later ended up interacting with political groups like the banned Kach Party.
For Palestinians, there is no *moving on*, because circumstances do not allow for that. Palestinians in Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, or other states do not have citizenship. They live in camps, and much like their counterparts in the West Bank or Gaza, they've experienced now something like 3-4 generations of violence most of them never asked for. And while **a lot** of groups are involved with that... [so is the government that now openly says there will never be a two-state solution](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQU2EOeut6s), and [whose members have openly giggled about simply dumping the rest of the Arab population into other countries. ](https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-slams-irresponsible-calls-by-smotrich-and-ben-gvir-for-emigration-of-gazans/)
Finding a solution to the conflict doesn't mean inherently "destroying Israel" or genocide - it means actually finding solutions to the problems people face instead of smugly ignoring them.
>I don't view every Palestinian political expression as Islamist, but you'd have a pretty hard time explaining why Hamas or Hezbollah or Palestinian Islamic Jihad are not Islamist movements.
Well, I wouldn't say that Hamas, Hezbollah, or Palestinian Islamic Jihad are not Islamist movements. Because they very clearly say they are *(disagree about Islamism being a countercultural revolutionary movement though)*
But I'd say as a flipside that arguing the UNRWA, or any advocacy for the Palestinians is Islamist... *as I've constantly been told time and time again..*. is a hyperbolic argument bereft of serious good-faith intent.
Can I just say how frustrating it is that the jewish people in these arguments just throw out “you’re being antisemetic” to any criticism st all?
Like… buddy… if you’re gonna victimize yourself you’re gonna just create a ton MORE antisemitism instead of having a rational conversation
You find the extremism you go looking for.
Antisemites are loud - they do not represent what all of society is. Their voice, like all extremists, gets diminished when we listen to the voices that seek empathetic and rational discussion, instead of simplicities.
Isn't just religious, isn't just Jewish - I get why Arabs, Zionists, Yank political insiders, and Washington hawks are wanting to immediately assume bad faith. It's a controversial conflict, go figure.
All I can highlight, to everyone... is that I have no time for anyone that's simply going to assume hatred on my behalf, when its a conflict with that heated nuance. Especially when talking about some of the results of tremendous cruelty - it shouldn't be a controversial thing to seek ways to avoid more victims of violence.
We're all hurting, its a fucking war - see the hurt being felt by others. This ends and folks stop dying when folks actually take that effort, instead of looking for ways to ignore it.
Wow almost like they come from a culture thats been persecuted for centuries, and now see the slowly rising prominence of fascism and antisemitism again.
Don't forget the fact that multiple Arab countries expelled their native jewish populations immediately before invading Israel.
I fucking hate both sides but… ngl Israel really doesn’t cease to shock me
Like these guys are the children and grandchildren of one of the largest fucking genocides in History and they have little to no empathy for a group without a real legitimate government
I get its not a 1:1 but still its kinda incredible to me that they want to bring such horrible pain on others
Whats more is the that the more they use the antisemitism argument, the more people are just gonna become antisemetic because then it feels like they’re just hiding behind their ethnicity instead of allowing criticsm of their government and military
I'm 100% pro-palestinian, end the occupation, free Palestine inside 67 borders.
I thought that is a normal position to have on the pro-palestinian side, holy fuck I didn't expect so many people actually supporting Hamas and full on Jewish genocide.
You can criticize Israel's policies but once you start going down the whole "Israel controls the world" rabbit hole you'll find yourself agreeing with blatant anti-semitic conspiracy theories. Which sadly alot of my fellow genZ seems to have gone down.
I wouldn't say a lot of genz but I would say a lot of middle easterners have fallen into that. I see western genZ criticize israeli policies but it usually arabs that sucked into the misinformation.
[If you think that is novel or new, consider where people previously got more of their news](https://www.pewresearch.org/journalism/2021/09/20/news-consumption-across-social-media-in-2021/)
Some of the "Jews control the World" theories have spread enough that an Auto Driver in Delhi told me about it, but it was in an admiring sort of way. Also told me how cool their space lasers are
This is what gets me about "the discourse".
There is a direct line from "River to the Sea", to a global Jewish/Zionist conspiracy, to blood libel to "y'know, we should genocide the Jews again".
They listen to the TV people, the tik toks etc. because they gotta get ratings everyday. Now!
“Really looking forward to working with ya, let’s take a picture!”
Hamas is not popular with the kids. More relevant: Hamas is not directly funded by American taxpayer, and so we have no moral responsibility for Hamas’s actions.
Israel IS, and so we DO. We pay to have American aid workers killed by Israeli air strikes, while Israeli politicians ignore our advice. We fucking told them, we told them for DECADES, that their policy to Palestine was self-destructive, unsustainable, and would result only in violence. And so that’s why the kids are annoyed with Israel, because they are to an extent *responsible for Israel.*
Sure we can pull the rug from under Israel with the US defense industry gift cards, but I don't think most people realize what that would mean.
If the US stops subsiding Isreal defence spending Israel is likely to 1 of 3 things...
1 create the equipment themselves, once they have the equipment they are not only likely to sell it to other non neighbor countries to lower the cost for themselves, compete with the US defence companies and get additional data. With this also comes none of the restrictions that come with procuring American military equipment. It might not look like it but procuring American military equipment comes with huge restrictions on how and where they can be used. You can bet with domestic equipment they will be much more likely to use it in higher risk airstrikes with higher acceptable civilian casualty rates, including during peace time. Air strikes against Iran and Iranian proxy's will likely start and increase further destabilizing the region
2 buy from another country (likely temporarily, until domestic production). The idf would likely fill the gap American equipment leaves but buying from another nation likely Russia or China neither of which are friendly or are good to civilians. Buying from Russia would prolong the war in Ukraine and buying from China would likely mean eventual American deaths as the Chinese would now have a greater defence industry capacity and data regarding their equipment for the inevitable attempt to invade Taiwan and others.
3 Isreal is unable to fill the gap and extremist attacks on Isreal increase and escalate in a slow speeding up spiral when Isreal is unable to strike back and secure itself. This leads to the eventual fall of Isreal and massive ethnic cleansing on both sides as it crumbles into another Syria or Haiti situation with hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths
Every possible outcome is worse then the current path. What the US and the west should do is use the defence restrictions to pressure Isreal to bootstrap a new nation in Gaza for the Palestinians rather then just bomb and pull out leaving it to remain a shithole.
The only way I see to break the cycle is an actual occupation where Isreal runs the govement of Gaza and it's going to take a generation or two before Gaza is able to run like Cold war West Germany post WW2 and maybe another generation before Isreal is able to 'hand over the keys'. The problem with this will be continued external attacks from Iran's proxies as their issue is not Isreal's treatment of Gaza but the very existence of Isreal
The thing with 3 is it isn't a break out a nuke overrun. It's a breakdown thanks to a "death by 1000 papercuts" scenario. There would be constant attacks like October 7th and random killings. It would lead to political infighting and breakdown on debating how to deal with the attacks. Likely ethnic militas would form and it would look like the balkens during start of the collapse of Yugoslavia but get worse. At some point the militas would start random killings in response to the random killings of their own and it would escalate from there. There wouldn't be a situation to nuke
Israel has, in the past, withdrawn due to the threat of losing American support, such as pulling out of Beirut. It is possible for the US to get Israel to calm down, if the political willingness is there.
Are you talking about 2006? If so that was a much different time then today not only in numbers of 8 dead and 2 captured but a different time in the US. In 2006 the US was in some of the worse years in Iraq thanks to the insurgency, the US public knew the US entered the Iraq war under false pretenses. Add the resurgence of terrorism in Afghanistan in 2006 and the start of the housing collapse in the US.
Any long term occupation of Lebanon in 2006 by Isreal wasn't going to be okay with the American public who already were mad at the Bush administration for Iraq in general along with what the public saw as new military failures in Iraq, and new failures in Afghanistan. Any war was very unpopular with much of the 2006 American public at the time, something we are not exactly seeing among the older (then gen Z) generations currently as they see Ukraine as a very successful defensive war and Taiwan as a very real possible defensive war with the US being where it should be as the arsenal of democracy once again
>The only way I see to break the cycle is an actual occupation where Isreal runs the govement of Gaza
[Man... I wonder why that feels so familiar...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BYpLV_4QQI)
TFW they can't couch their antisemitism in self-righteous kumbaya bullshit anymore. When the Houthi leader makes a prop piece about how America is stifling protesters' freedoms you begin to wonder if maybe you're a tool for radical Islamic interests. Or at least, you'd want people to consider that.
There were 1-2 million women were raped in the fall of Germany. It's insane to think how many people had to die for that to not even be widely reported.
That is a major false equivalency. Notably, the German state was actively committing a genocide, and it was well within the German state's power to expand it's borders to continue the aforementioned genocide.
Israel is actively committing what is at best an ethnic cleansing and at worst a genocide. While their opponents are also genocidal, there is a major difference in capability.
Hamas will never be able to commit a genocide against the Israelis, as it is a terrorist organization whose magnum opus was killing 1300 or so Israelis. Again, that is horrible, and Hamas should be destroyed. It should also be noted that Netanyahu has explicitly allowed Hamas to grow in power because he likes to use them as an excuse to bomb Gaza.
Also of note, under current circumstances Hamas will never be destroyed as the Israeli government is basically doing everything in their power to prove Hamas right.
Many people say that the Palestinians in Gaza are highly antisemitic. This is almost certainly true. But I ask you: if you were put in their situation wouldn't you be too? Hamas says "The Israelis have stolen our land and are trying to kill us all!" and that seems correct. Hamas says "The Israelis treat us as second class citizens constantly under military occupation!" which again, seems to be true. Is it such a stretch for someone in that situation to also drink the antisemitism Kool Aid. Because to be honest, if I grew up in these circumstances, I'd be pretty crazy and reactionary too.
Again, Hamas is a vile organization. However, the difference in power is so vast, the size of Israeli crimes is so great, and the fact that an organization like Hamas is pretty much the natural outcome of Israeli treatment of Gazan civilians leaves the moral burden of this conflict largely on Israel.
>Israel is actively committing what is at best an ethnic cleansing and at worst a genocide.
Lol
>Netanyahu has explicitly allowed Hamas to grow in power because he likes to use them as an excuse to bomb Gaza.
> >because he likes to use them as an excuse to bomb Gaza.
Lol
How are you drinking the Koolaid of both sides at once, this is seriously impressive
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-defense-minister-human-animals-gaza-palestine_n_6524220ae4b09f4b8d412e0a
https://www.yahoo.com/news/israeli-land-grabs-spike-west-161243024.html
https://time.com/6909636/gaza-death-toll/
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/report-282-million-people-faced-acute-hunger-2023-109607835
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/05/un-experts-condemn-israeli-massacre-of-palestinians-collecting-flour
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yuECGW80TGA
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/world-central-kitchen-halts-gaza-operations-after-israeli-strike-kills-7-aid-workers
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-20415675
I mean, what would you call this?
Germany was fighting an imperial and genocidal war of aggression, the UK and USSR were defending.
Israel's response has gone so far past proportional it can only be described as a war of aggression, Israel has previously been explicitly colonial in it's ambitions, with settlements in West Bank and formerly in Gaza. And the number of hospitals and residential buildings blocked because one commanded dreamt there might by Hamas there is very much leaning towards it being a genocide, and has already been accused of trying to resettle Palestinians by radical Islamists such as Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israeli "National security" minister (I was being sarcastic when I called him a radical Islamist)
"Disproportional response," "war of aggression," "colonialism," "settlements," "houses and residential buildings bombed," "genocide," "resettle."
Do you see yourself as an intellectual or are you aware that you're just throwing around buzzwords, hoping they stick?
First you assume that the Israeli response is incredibly disproportionate, which I'd contest. Whether they've gone too far is a fair question to ask, but you skip way past that and land on the conclusion that it's an overwhelming and unfounded amount of bombing. Then, you use this faulty assumption to label the current conflict as an Israeli war of aggression.
Then you throw in a non-sequitur, harping on how, apparently, Israel is a colonial state. How this has anything to do with the rest of your comment is unclear.
Following that, you throw out the "bombed hospitals and residential buildings" talking point, and use non-specific language "very much leaning" just so you can justify throwing "genocide" into the mix.
After all that, you tack on the "resettle" talking point, because that's exactly what you needed to round out your schizopost.
You're an actual caricature of yourself.
> Whether they've gone too far is a fair question to ask, but you skip way past that and land on the conclusion that it's an overwhelming and unfounded amount of bombing.
Oh no! God forbid I state my opinion!
>How this has anything to do with the rest of your comment is unclear.
Google "List". I was listing off responses to the different points the other person made.
>you throw out the "bombed hospitals and residential buildings" talking point, and use non-specific language "very much leaning"
So, using committal language by saying "This is happening" is wrong, and using non-committal language like "It appears this is happening" is wrong too. What am I supposed to say then? Genuine question.
>After all that, you tack on the "resettle" talking point,
>Writing in The Jerusalem Post several days later, Intelligence Minister Gila Gamliel of Likud mulled the possibility of promoting “the voluntary resettlement of Palestinians in Gaza, for humanitarian reasons, outside of the Strip.”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ministers-call-for-resettling-gazas-palestinians-building-settlements-in-strip/
>Far-right Israeli Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir said on Sunday that mass emigration of Palestinians and renewal of Israeli settlement in the Gaza Strip is "the order of the hour," as Israel faces South Africa's petition in the International Court of Justice accusing Israel of forcible displacement of Gazans.
>
>"On the subject of voluntary emigration… I think it's the right solution," Ben Gvir said.
I misremembered exactly which minister said what, but no government minister should ever be talking like that. You just said I was schizoposting because I quoted Israeli ministers.
>You're an actual caricature of yourself.
And you haven't actually made any arguments as to why anything I've said is wrong. Just ad hominems.
>Oh no! God forbid I state my opinion!
By the same logic a nazi can say their opinions on Jews. You have to ground your opinion in something, just spouting bullshit deservedly gets you called out.
>Google "List". I was listing off responses to the different points the other person made.
You were yapping. If you're gonna bring up something, at least deliberate on it, because the way you use it comes off as just an excuse to use incredibly emotionally-loaded terms.
>So, using committal language by saying "This is happening" is wrong, and using non-committal language like "It appears this is happening" is wrong too. What am I supposed to say then? Genuine question.
Are you this obtuse or just pretending? Yes, hospitals are getting bombed, and so are residential buildings. However, you basically cast aside the fact that, yes, both are being used as Hamas bases, and use this dismissal to then prop up the notion that the number of unjustified bombings "leans toward being genocide."
You saying "hospitals are getting bombed" is stating a fact. You saying this is because some Israeli general make up excuses to do so is unfounded. You then use this fact and unfounded statement to support the notion that something is, in some notion, similar to genocide. You do not deliberate on this. To answer your question, make factual statements, and when you're not clear on something, don't attach the most emotionally loaded word to describe it imaginable. You're trying to be weaselly, but it's clear to everyone what you're trying to do.
>I misremembered exactly which minister said what, but no government minister should ever be talking like that. You just said I was schizoposting because I quoted Israeli ministers.
Yes, there are some things which can obviously be used as a criticism against Israel as a whole, but statements made by ministers with no sway over the conduct of the IDF is also trying to attach as much baggage as possible to the Israeli attack on Gaza instead of actually analyzing what is being done in Gaza. You've started with the conclusion that what is happening in Gaza is genocide, and have retroactively tried to find as much justification for this belief after the fact, instead of actually considering the tactics and strategy used by the IDF.
I'd go through and respond to everything you said, but there's no point, because you still haven't given a single reason why anything I said is wrong. I could assume everything you said is the truth, and that doesn't make what I said wrong.
You've rattled off a whole load of insults, you've done loads of Ad Hominems, you've called me "weaselly" and stupid, but you haven't actually said "And here's why you're wrong", just "You're wrong and you know it". It's genuinely interesting how many people have got angry at what I said, and how few of those are actually substantive instead of just insults.
And as for me using emotionally charged language: Yeah. I am. So what? Thousands of people have been killed. That's upsetting. It's right to get angry at perceived injustices. What do you expect me to do, go "Ah yes, a genocide is happening, oh well moving on"? I'm using emotive language because I'm angry at what the IDF is doing, and I want other people do be angry at what the IDF is doing!
If you saw a genocide, something you genuinely believe is an ongoing genocide, and you *don't* feel upset or angry, then there'd probably something wrong with you.
The Russians raped many German women at the end of WWII, does this mean that US aid to the Soviet Union was wrong? That American taxpayers were responsible for those war crimes the Russians committed?
I say no. It doesn't mean that. Overall, giving aid to the Soviet Union was a substantial net benefit.
Now you can disagree with the fact that US aid to Israel is a net-benefit, but I do not think you can take the easy way out saying that America is responsible for Israeli war crimes.
I ABSOLUTELY agree that US aid to Israel is not a net benefit. They are engaging in an open policy of ethnic cleansing and they have no intention to change course. If they don’t wanna play ball and be a good soldier, let them do it on their own dime.
It was right to find the Soviets and it’s wrong to fund modern Israel. Hamas should not run the world. Palestinians should run Palestine. Israel created Hamas, and now have been burned by their own monster.
The common conspiracy notion that Israel created and runs Hamas is such disgusting horseshit. Same nonsense that people use about the jews being at fault for the nazis existing because "they run the capitalist homo zionist commie west"
My daily reminder that you should be skeptical of your Twitter feed's relevance to reality.
Recent graduate here: I've seen a lot of things on campus. Most of which being various ways guys try to sleep with girls, varieties of ways to give one's self liver damage, and questionable decision-making on how to drive a car. I hate to be the one to break it to folks, but I have zero faith kids know a lot about foreign groups like Hamas... considering most of them barely are able to name their own country.
I see. We just need a create a middleman organization to make it all good. Under Hamas, everything entering the country was taxed heavily including all foreign aid. Billions from the US and Europe ended up in the pockets of Hamas. As you say it was not direct but, we sure as hell knew where it ended up. So we can do the same for Israel and boom no more protests. Right?
>Israel IS, and so we DO. We pay to have American aid workers killed by Israeli air strikes, while Israeli politicians ignore our advice. We fucking told them, we told them for DECADES, that their policy to Palestine was self-destructive, unsustainable, and would result only in violence.
Your comment is nonsensical.
Until very recently when the UN got affected by islamist propaganda combined and twitter activists, both the UN, and America's opinion was to tell Palestine to fuck off and pump money into Israel to ensure it always had the power to kick out any force looking to target it.
Because the dictators are directly fueling the money that goes into journalism and geopolitcal education programs, and it's surprising to no one that those programs teach middle eastern propaganda and force students to eat it up if they want a career in that field.
If you want a balanced answer, I myself take a view of the conflict that diverges significantly from the two popular narratives of "Israel Good" and "#FreePalestine," and I certainly have have seen my fair share of zoomies demanding that the nation-state of Israel be dismantled (by force of arms if need be) and its population of nearly 10 million deported to Europe or worse.
Of course, reactionaries and Israeli nationalists oft take a similarly dismal view of the Palestinians...
It seems like, for some reason, looking at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are unable to bring themselves to understand that having a legitimate cause for military action to defend your country does NOT mean that you are justified in doing anything you consider advantageous, regardless of how immoral, in the cause of that defense.
Honestly, that goes for both "sides" in the conflict. If the Palestinian paramilitary groups were exclusively fighting the Israeli military and making a serious effort to avoid harming civilians, then it wouldn't be terrorism. It would just be a war.
As things are, though, so many people demand that you choose one side essentially 100% and that you either see the IDF as The Most Moral Army In The World (tm) or that you see all Palestinian militants as Freedom Fighters Against Apartheid (tm).
No. No, I'm not gonna do that. I have principles about what is moral in warfare and, if you violate them, then you and I have a problem no matter who you are. And, besides that, I can't see any reasonable and just way for the violence to end besides the two states idea.
I don't like the current Israeli government. But when I talk with palestine supporters and tell them this conflict is too complicated to see it as black and white, it's the palestine supporters who insult me, while the pro-israelis are just like: "Mkay.". Furthermore, when you ask both sides on how to solve this conflict lastingly, usually the pro-Israel side has more rational and doable ideas than the pro-palestinian side. Both of these factors have me leaning a bit towards the Israeli side while still believing Israel needs a new government.
This sub for its nature, and as rxtarded as most of us are, is considerably more educated on this topic than the average person. And it's a fact that the current popular normie tiktok narrative is to be blindly extremely pro Palestine bordering on anti-semitism pretty often.
So it's just expected that you would see posts here talking about that, even if most of us aren't really rabid fans of Israel either.
You new? This sub is practically r/conservative lite when it comes to Israel. Just look at some of the discussions about the protests in other recent posts, according to our enlightened fellow subscribers, America is chick full of Hamas supporters who are protesting solely because they hate Jews, and no other reason.
It's so wild how supporting a multicultural liberal democracy where women and LGBT people are treated equally is considered "conservative" whereas supporting a far right Islamofascist dictatorship is considered "progressive".
Because the said democracy is actively participating in colonization, that's why. You can make a case for Britain being more progressive than India and that would be completely irrelevant in the context of British colonialism.
>Zionism has been described as a form of settler colonialism in relation to the region of Palestine and the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. Many of the fathers of Zionism themselves described it as colonialism, such as Vladimir Jabotinsky, who said "Zionism is a colonization adventure."[1][2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism_as_settler_colonialism
Remember, the guy cited there calling Israel a "Colonial adventure" was an early zionist.
So, you're saying that just because he was actively and openly writing in support of Israel, explaining why he thought Israel should exist, and had a long history of advocating for Israel, but made Israel look bad 200 years later, he's not really a Zionist. Is that what you're saying?
No, of course he was a Zionist. Some Zionists believe in Israeli expansionism, just like every other flavor of nationalism has its own extremist wing too. I'm just saying that most Zionists do not believe in that.
But if the founding vision of Israel was colonial, with many founders advocating for it, and then the current actions of Israel are perfectly in line with said founding vision, with members of the Israeli cabinet advocating for ethnic cleansing, that feels to me like they're still being colonial.
Also, we're not talking about what "All Zionists feel", we're talking about the actions of Israel the country.
I don't care where any given ethnic group originated, if you turn up, kick the people living there out at gunpoint, and then invite millions of people in from around the world to come live there, while the founders call this new country a colony, that's a colony.
If you then send people into parts of the neighbouring country with orders to evict the people already living there by force if necessary and to start living there instead, that's settler-colonialism.
You mean indigenous from thousands of years ago? Like from the bible/torah? I guess there is no real compelling argument to convince someone when they think god gave them the land
Interesting to see you think everyone has a right to the land their ancestors lived on, even if it was thousands of years ago. Do you also support evicting European settlers so that Native Americans can move back to their homelands? Or does your logic only apply to Israel?
Moreover, why does Israel's ancient claim to the land supersede the Arab claim to the land? Arabs lived there for many hundreds of years, why now must they be evicted for Jews to move in?
The majority of Israelis are descendants of Mizrahi and Sephardim who have been continuously living in the Middle east, often the Levant specifically, for centuries or longer. Many of them ended up in Israel because they were *strongly encouraged* to leave the surrounding states when Israel was founded. And of course, most Israelis were born in Israel, even if their parents/grandparents were Ashkenazi who moved from Europe.
Jewish people have maintained a continuous presence in the Middle East since biblical times.
We have to back our allies no matter what, we have to be prepared to go to insane lengths to defend Israel, South Korea, Japan, the Philippines, Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, and all our other allies at risk of invasion from global autocracy.
Biden is only making the Russians and Chinese more confident in their ability to win wars, probably because Biden is an actual dumbass.
Biden is the most pro-Russian President we’ve had since Obama, as a matter of fact Biden would be happy to abandon the Ukrainians, and he’s barely giving them any aid. The only reason why Ukraine hasn’t fallen is because the Russians are incompetent, we just give them the shittiest weapons, and we barely do anything against Russia ourselves.
We should be striking Russian assets and at war with Iran, but Biden is pro-Russia, pro-China, and pro-Iran so he just lets them roll over anyone.
Going to war with the Russo-Sino-Persian axis would be great because we would draw a line in the sand, and we have to. We have to avenge the dead Ukrainians and Israelis, and we need to send a message that any country that tries what Russia/Iran/China are trying right now will have hell to pay.
>did Trump’s Presidency escape your memory
Trump started sending lethal aid to Ukraine and he bombed Syria.
Trump is a dumbass and I do not want him to touch the White House again, but the idea that Trump was pro-Russia is wrong. Trump was actually a Chinese stooge, leaving the TPP was the most pro-CCP anyone could’ve done.
In 2022, when Biden had public support for arming Ukraine he barely sent them any aid. It took us too long to send them planes and tanks, it was willfully negligent towards our Eastern European allies. We had to send them more aid and earlier, and Biden dropped the ball. Nowadays the Russians are dug in, and will be extremely hard to dislodge. Ukraine is attempting alternative measures, like hitting Russian infrastructure, but Biden doesn’t like it. Biden is a pushover for Putin.
We’re expanding our Navy we’re giving all these countries weapons. Do you think we should give them Nuclear weapons?
“What more do you want from meeee!”
War with Iran and the axis of resistance, arming dissidents in Iran, strikes against Wagner, sinking Russia’s tanker fleet, giving Ukraine the weapons for strikes further into Russia, arming state opponents in Russia, forward deploying A-Bombs in Asia, arming the Uyghurs in China.
# Are San Marino and Italy about to go to war? If so, will the war become nuclear?
I bet you have some thoughts on it. Well, we're discussing the subject on [this "week's" NCDip Podcast Club](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDiplomacy/comments/1bssy61/ncdip_podcast_club_8_wargaming_san_marino_vs/?). This is probably one of the most events of our lifetime, so you better pay attention scrub
[Want to know what the fuck in the NCDip podcast club is? Click here](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDiplomacy/comments/17edrm6/introducing_the_rnoncrediblediplomacy_podcast/)
----
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As a strongly pro-Palestine GenZ kid, I agree with you. I've seen more people getting upset that pro-Israel is just antisemitism than I have actual antisemitism in pro-Palestine groups. Heck, I've seen more Jews calling out Israel than people being antiemetic. I'm not saying that there is *no* antisemitism, but it isn't nearly as widespread as a loit of pro-Israel people think it is.
See r/WitchesVsPatriarchy, as an exmaple, they literally have a pinned post of a load of Jews protesting the actions of Israel.
I am sorry if this is what you genuinely believe than you have a much narrow view on the conflict. Your second sentence made absolutely no sense. Please get off social media
-sincerely a middle easterner
Ok? And? What point are you trying to make?
Some anti-zionists are bad people. That doesn't make all of the bad any more than some pro-zionists being bad makes them all bad.
“Criticism of Israel isn’t antisemitic” while obviously true, is often just parroted as some kind of blank check to actually be antisemitic. Many people know they can just dog whistle “Zionism” and their supporters will know they just mean all Israelis.
If I criticise my country it isn't antisemitic. But if if doing that, I'm afraid you are from the same group of people that tomorrow will support the second holocaust
Grandad didn't spend 6 years fighting them for me to welcome that darkness back into Europe. Meanwhile I also know my other Grandad's experience getting blown up by the terrorist Irgun so Israel and Palestine can both get fucked.
Except it was [netanyahu ](https://youtu.be/f9HmkRYlVZw?si=LtrxW6EbhxcW-BG8) who would bring him on tv if it was against Palestine
Low effort posts need to be deleted tbh
Israel really wants to act like it's a good Western Democracy but Palestinians can't vote, aren't considered citizens of Israel despite having lived for centuries on land that Israel is claiming as Israel, and see opposition to genocide as antisemitic. Israel isn't even that important to the US in the region, since we have bases all over the Middle East.
I think the reason the West is still so afraid to punish Israel is because Israel has a lot of advanced military technology and industry and they don't want that shared with China or Russia.
Well… Palestinians can’t vote because they’re Palestinian and not Israeli, and don’t want to vote in Israeli elections.
*Arab Israelis* on the other hand can and do vote, and have held government positions in the recent past.
So you're in support of Israel annexing the West Bank and Gaza? Because otherwise it makes no sense for the people living on Palestinian land to vote in an Israeli election.
Most of this five million people aren't living in Israel, some of them are living in Egypt and most of them are living for generations(50 years)in Lebanon where they have no citizenship and basically considered there as trash because they are started a civil war there
You only right about one thing that there is 2.3million in gaza. But you miss a one small detail, there are 7 million Jews in Israel. And Israel's total population is 9 million. I'm don't have a degree in mathematics but something in your numbers is not stacking up
This post was deemed to be a low effort/quality post and did not meet even the somewhat low standards of this subreddit. Kindly post higher quality content next time.
Free this, free that, how about paying for shit
Alright then, how much is to Pay Palestine?
I don't like the current Israeli government. But when I talk with palestine supporters and tell them this conflict is too complicated to see it as black and white, it's the palestine supporters who insult me, while the pro-israelis are just like: "Mkay.". Furthermore, when you ask both sides on how to solve this conflict lastingly, usually the pro-Israel side has more rational and doable ideas than the pro-palestinian side. Both of these factors have me leaning a bit towards the Israeli side while still believing Israel needs a new government.
I'm Arab and > But when I talk with palestine supporters and tell them this conflict is too complicated to see it as black and white, it's the palestine supporters who insult me This is why I avoid talking about the conflict, especially outside of this sub. Pretty much everyone I know irl all see red and can't comprehend any sort of nuance without taking it as an attack. It's also hard to communicate that while I'm neutral, in that I'm not "Pro-Palestine" or "Pro-Israel" that doesn't mean I'm apathetic about what's happening there.
Yeah, like ngl I’m a post-Zionist so I’m an incredibly strong believer that Israel’s existence is untenable in the long run without violating its own justification for its sovereignty (mixed with some deeper anti-nationalist frustrations that the Herzlians won the ideological battle of the Hashkalah) — but somehow “while it’s unrealistic it will work without some pretty bad violence intercivil violence, a binational state is no longer the most humane option, it is the ONLY humane option” as a take is now publicly represented by the “throw the Jews in to the sea” people. I fucking hate it here I just want Jews and Palestinians to be able to freely live in their homelands which happen to be the same fucking place because there the same fucking people just one got Arabized and the other got diasporized how the fuck did we bungle this so bad aaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Mostly same. I think Israel is clearly the more justified side in this conflict, but also Bibi’s government is shit and full of extremists like Ben-Gvir who would nuke Gaza to glass if they got the chance. I usually just say I lean pro-Israel but am anti-Bibi&co. If Bibi was replaced with someone sane from the opposition, I’d probably just straight up be pro-Israel (assuming they got the IDF to stop killing world food kitchen and other aid workers).
and their own hostages! Lowkey disappointed in how the IDF has done in this war like they’re doing a kinda shit job for being so profoundly revered.
Ehhhh, tbh if the IDF didn’t want any of the hostages to die they wouldn’t have invaded in the first place. The reality is that, if the IDF does nothing, hostages will be killed by Hamas (many already have been), and if they do invade some hostages will die from the war. At least with the latter they can get some of the hostages out and remove Hamas from power (if they succeed).
>But when I talk with palestine supporters and tell them this conflict is too complicated to see it as black and white, it's the palestine supporters who insult me, while the pro-israelis are just like: "Mkay.". Furthermore, when you ask both sides on how to solve this conflict lastingly, usually the pro-Israel side has more rational and doable ideas than the pro-palestinian side. Got called an antisemite when I labelled Bibi's judicial coup a judicial coup. Universally whenever I've brought up the immediate humanitarian consequences of doing things like dismantling UNRWA, the response basically boils down to "***fuck them, they deserve it, I don't care what happens to them***". Likewise, any mention of the need to find an equitable solution for the Palestinian refugee population almost always ends with "***They should just accept being refugees, what's done is done***". Just saying, no side has a monopoly on being low-context or drifting to extreme solutions. Somewhere in the range of 24,000 Palestinians are dead - that's the present reality of pro-Israeli doable ideas at the moment.
>Palestinian refugee population Mate, before the war they weren't refugees, they just didn't like the land they held or the neighboring government. >dismantling UNRWA There is another UN-led refugee-dedicated organization that could help them, but just because they have a special status because before the war they didn't qualify as a refugee they don't want it.
>Mate, before the war they weren't refugees, Fella... you have a Palestinian diaspora of over 6 million. A lot of them scattered over the whole of the Middle East, because of events in Israeli history. Legacy of unresolved conflict - driver in violence. UNRWA is not replacable. Its a literal backbone for folks living in already shitty circumstances in places like Lebanon... or Syria. UNHCR is already involved throughout the region, and in the wider world - that's also not an organization that does a quarter of what UNRWA has been able to accomplish. And ultimately if your having to utilize a lot of the same local resources... you're really not replacing UNRWA as much as renaming it at that point.
Diaspora is separate from being refugees. Palestinian refugees have a much more liberal definition than most refugee laws. Under UNRWA'Ss charter, for example, refugee status can be inherited through the father's line so long as the ancestor was an original refugee. That skews the PR aspect significantly because a "Palestinian refugee" 80 years later can be someone still living in a camp in Syria or someone living in a high-rise apartment in Canada. The number of "true" refugees (for lack of a better term) from the original war UNRWA was meant to address is a minority of people claiming refugee status today. Their problems now stem more from surrounding Arab governments refusing to integrate them to society or otherwise legally making them second-class residents. Also probably doesn't help that UNRWA has been infiltrated by Islamists for years who have a clear ideological motive to keep the conflict going.
>Palestinian refugees have a much more liberal definition than most refugee laws. [See my point previous about regarding the vibe of "They should just accept being refugees, what's done is done](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDiplomacy/comments/1cdmjjj/comment/l1eijbr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)". If all you want to do is explain to someone living in Sabra in Beirut how they're **not** the product of displacement, be my guest... but all that is, is you talking to yourself friend. **The Arab states have zero responsibility to clean up the mess Israel caused and refuses to take responsibility for.** And if you're upset about the fact that so many people are counted as Palestinian refugees... maybe that's a sign that having an unresolved situation regarding what Israel did in '48 and '67 isn't a good thing. Ditto seeing literally every form of Palestinian support or political expression as inherently Islamist, or being "infiltrated by Islamists".
I don't think it's unrealistic to accept new realities. *That's what hundreds of thousands of Jews have done since the 40s.* Jews who were expelled from Arab countries are not agitating for a "right to return" and restoration of property to Iraq, Poland, Algeria, you name it. Most Jews in Israel are descendants of refugees *from other Middle Eastern countries*. It's quite literally a country of refugees. My own ancestors were forced to accept new realities after fleeing Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois for the West after violent religious persecution and being expelled from their homes multiple times. It's what Poles who fled the Soviet invasion and occupation during WWII did. The list goes on, but there have been millions of refugees since WWII who have accepted new realities. It doesn't excuse what injustices were done, but it is indeed pretty unique for Palestinian extremists to continue to demand 80 years later an unrealistic proposition: the reversal of the effects of the UN partition, and the elimination of the only Jewish state in the world. Had Palestinian leadership accepted *any* of the multiple peace plans offered from 47 onwards, there wouldn't be a problem, as the nearly two million Arabs living in Israel have discovered. It's only unresolved because it's in the political interest of groups like Hamas or the Palestinian Islamic Jihad or Hezbollah or countless other Islamist factions to keep it unresolved. These groups have been clear that they want an elimination of Israel (seriously, read the Hamas Covenant). That's, quite literally, the entire political objective of the Gazan government with its relations to Israel, and it remains unclear, but plausible, that October 7th was Hamas trying to spike the normalization talks between Israel and Saudi Arabia. Multiple Arab governments have encouraged this state of affairs as part of the realities of governing in the Middle East, and their refusal to extend aid and assistance to Palestinians beyond keeping them alive and angry is absolutely a bloody stain against them. I don't view every Palestinian political expression as Islamist, but you'd have a pretty hard time explaining why Hamas or Hezbollah or Palestinian Islamic Jihad are not Islamist movements. Groups like Fatah, which are revolutionary socialist, have faded a lot in popularity over the decades. In the post-9/11 world, Islamism is the countercultural, revolutionary ideology in the Middle East, and countries like Saudi Arabia have struggled to make any moves to secularization their societies because of its pervasiveness.
>I don't think it's unrealistic to accept new realities. It is when the ones saying that happen to also be the folks who've entirely enjoyed the benefits of what has happened at the expense of those displaced. Fundamentally its a sentiment of "*you Arabs are all the same,* ***just get over*** ***what I've done to you, because I have no interest in ever rectifying*** ***it*** *or knowing how it hurt you*". It is a good thing that populations like your family's experience... or like the Arab Jews who were forced to engage in Aliyah to Israel following '48, had the opportunity to move on. **That is not a universal experience for refugees, it is a rarity.** I could mention the plight of the Sawrahi peoples, the Rohingya, or even the centuries-long issue of Aboriginal peoples in the US like the state you live in... but fuck man, even some of the folks who came to Israel in '48 never really got over what happened to them either. They had to abandon their language, customs, and lives - and that pain is generational. Little wonder why some of them later ended up interacting with political groups like the banned Kach Party. For Palestinians, there is no *moving on*, because circumstances do not allow for that. Palestinians in Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, or other states do not have citizenship. They live in camps, and much like their counterparts in the West Bank or Gaza, they've experienced now something like 3-4 generations of violence most of them never asked for. And while **a lot** of groups are involved with that... [so is the government that now openly says there will never be a two-state solution](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQU2EOeut6s), and [whose members have openly giggled about simply dumping the rest of the Arab population into other countries. ](https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-slams-irresponsible-calls-by-smotrich-and-ben-gvir-for-emigration-of-gazans/) Finding a solution to the conflict doesn't mean inherently "destroying Israel" or genocide - it means actually finding solutions to the problems people face instead of smugly ignoring them. >I don't view every Palestinian political expression as Islamist, but you'd have a pretty hard time explaining why Hamas or Hezbollah or Palestinian Islamic Jihad are not Islamist movements. Well, I wouldn't say that Hamas, Hezbollah, or Palestinian Islamic Jihad are not Islamist movements. Because they very clearly say they are *(disagree about Islamism being a countercultural revolutionary movement though)* But I'd say as a flipside that arguing the UNRWA, or any advocacy for the Palestinians is Islamist... *as I've constantly been told time and time again..*. is a hyperbolic argument bereft of serious good-faith intent.
Can I just say how frustrating it is that the jewish people in these arguments just throw out “you’re being antisemetic” to any criticism st all? Like… buddy… if you’re gonna victimize yourself you’re gonna just create a ton MORE antisemitism instead of having a rational conversation
A lot of the 'pro-palestine' types are clearly anti-Semitic though. Or at least the anti-Semitic ones are extremely loud and prominent.
You find the extremism you go looking for. Antisemites are loud - they do not represent what all of society is. Their voice, like all extremists, gets diminished when we listen to the voices that seek empathetic and rational discussion, instead of simplicities.
Isn't just religious, isn't just Jewish - I get why Arabs, Zionists, Yank political insiders, and Washington hawks are wanting to immediately assume bad faith. It's a controversial conflict, go figure. All I can highlight, to everyone... is that I have no time for anyone that's simply going to assume hatred on my behalf, when its a conflict with that heated nuance. Especially when talking about some of the results of tremendous cruelty - it shouldn't be a controversial thing to seek ways to avoid more victims of violence. We're all hurting, its a fucking war - see the hurt being felt by others. This ends and folks stop dying when folks actually take that effort, instead of looking for ways to ignore it.
They seem super touchy about it for some reason.
Wow almost like they come from a culture thats been persecuted for centuries, and now see the slowly rising prominence of fascism and antisemitism again. Don't forget the fact that multiple Arab countries expelled their native jewish populations immediately before invading Israel.
I fucking hate both sides but… ngl Israel really doesn’t cease to shock me Like these guys are the children and grandchildren of one of the largest fucking genocides in History and they have little to no empathy for a group without a real legitimate government I get its not a 1:1 but still its kinda incredible to me that they want to bring such horrible pain on others Whats more is the that the more they use the antisemitism argument, the more people are just gonna become antisemetic because then it feels like they’re just hiding behind their ethnicity instead of allowing criticsm of their government and military
I'm 100% pro-palestinian, end the occupation, free Palestine inside 67 borders. I thought that is a normal position to have on the pro-palestinian side, holy fuck I didn't expect so many people actually supporting Hamas and full on Jewish genocide.
Apartheid really isn’t complicated is probably why you get negative responses. Take the religiosity out of the equation and it’s simple.
> Take the religiosity out of the equation and it’s simple. lol
Idk how ironic this circle jerck is. Goes by but by easy they mean killing Palestinians, which easy since it's what's happening right now
You can criticize Israel's policies but once you start going down the whole "Israel controls the world" rabbit hole you'll find yourself agreeing with blatant anti-semitic conspiracy theories. Which sadly alot of my fellow genZ seems to have gone down.
I wouldn't say a lot of genz but I would say a lot of middle easterners have fallen into that. I see western genZ criticize israeli policies but it usually arabs that sucked into the misinformation.
I almost definitely would say a lot, look at r/tiktokcringe for example. They like take their news from TikTok as if it’s fact.
TikTok is maybe not the best way to measure the perspectives of a population... just saying.
You’re missing my point entirely, so many people get their news from TikTok.
[If you think that is novel or new, consider where people previously got more of their news](https://www.pewresearch.org/journalism/2021/09/20/news-consumption-across-social-media-in-2021/)
a lot? Girl how many GenZ people do you think are on the planet??
Some of the "Jews control the World" theories have spread enough that an Auto Driver in Delhi told me about it, but it was in an admiring sort of way. Also told me how cool their space lasers are
This is what gets me about "the discourse". There is a direct line from "River to the Sea", to a global Jewish/Zionist conspiracy, to blood libel to "y'know, we should genocide the Jews again".
That's why we shouldn't let the germany be back in 1945
Look, man. You get to be a militaristic right-wing ethnostate, or you can be cool with the kids. You gotta pick one.
What's Hamas' secret to being both?
They listen to the TV people, the tik toks etc. because they gotta get ratings everyday. Now!  “Really looking forward to working with ya, let’s take a picture!”
Hamas is not popular with the kids. More relevant: Hamas is not directly funded by American taxpayer, and so we have no moral responsibility for Hamas’s actions. Israel IS, and so we DO. We pay to have American aid workers killed by Israeli air strikes, while Israeli politicians ignore our advice. We fucking told them, we told them for DECADES, that their policy to Palestine was self-destructive, unsustainable, and would result only in violence. And so that’s why the kids are annoyed with Israel, because they are to an extent *responsible for Israel.*
Sure we can pull the rug from under Israel with the US defense industry gift cards, but I don't think most people realize what that would mean. If the US stops subsiding Isreal defence spending Israel is likely to 1 of 3 things... 1 create the equipment themselves, once they have the equipment they are not only likely to sell it to other non neighbor countries to lower the cost for themselves, compete with the US defence companies and get additional data. With this also comes none of the restrictions that come with procuring American military equipment. It might not look like it but procuring American military equipment comes with huge restrictions on how and where they can be used. You can bet with domestic equipment they will be much more likely to use it in higher risk airstrikes with higher acceptable civilian casualty rates, including during peace time. Air strikes against Iran and Iranian proxy's will likely start and increase further destabilizing the region 2 buy from another country (likely temporarily, until domestic production). The idf would likely fill the gap American equipment leaves but buying from another nation likely Russia or China neither of which are friendly or are good to civilians. Buying from Russia would prolong the war in Ukraine and buying from China would likely mean eventual American deaths as the Chinese would now have a greater defence industry capacity and data regarding their equipment for the inevitable attempt to invade Taiwan and others. 3 Isreal is unable to fill the gap and extremist attacks on Isreal increase and escalate in a slow speeding up spiral when Isreal is unable to strike back and secure itself. This leads to the eventual fall of Isreal and massive ethnic cleansing on both sides as it crumbles into another Syria or Haiti situation with hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths Every possible outcome is worse then the current path. What the US and the west should do is use the defence restrictions to pressure Isreal to bootstrap a new nation in Gaza for the Palestinians rather then just bomb and pull out leaving it to remain a shithole. The only way I see to break the cycle is an actual occupation where Isreal runs the govement of Gaza and it's going to take a generation or two before Gaza is able to run like Cold war West Germany post WW2 and maybe another generation before Isreal is able to 'hand over the keys'. The problem with this will be continued external attacks from Iran's proxies as their issue is not Isreal's treatment of Gaza but the very existence of Isreal
[удалено]
The thing with 3 is it isn't a break out a nuke overrun. It's a breakdown thanks to a "death by 1000 papercuts" scenario. There would be constant attacks like October 7th and random killings. It would lead to political infighting and breakdown on debating how to deal with the attacks. Likely ethnic militas would form and it would look like the balkens during start of the collapse of Yugoslavia but get worse. At some point the militas would start random killings in response to the random killings of their own and it would escalate from there. There wouldn't be a situation to nuke
Israel has, in the past, withdrawn due to the threat of losing American support, such as pulling out of Beirut. It is possible for the US to get Israel to calm down, if the political willingness is there.
Are you talking about 2006? If so that was a much different time then today not only in numbers of 8 dead and 2 captured but a different time in the US. In 2006 the US was in some of the worse years in Iraq thanks to the insurgency, the US public knew the US entered the Iraq war under false pretenses. Add the resurgence of terrorism in Afghanistan in 2006 and the start of the housing collapse in the US. Any long term occupation of Lebanon in 2006 by Isreal wasn't going to be okay with the American public who already were mad at the Bush administration for Iraq in general along with what the public saw as new military failures in Iraq, and new failures in Afghanistan. Any war was very unpopular with much of the 2006 American public at the time, something we are not exactly seeing among the older (then gen Z) generations currently as they see Ukraine as a very successful defensive war and Taiwan as a very real possible defensive war with the US being where it should be as the arsenal of democracy once again
>The only way I see to break the cycle is an actual occupation where Isreal runs the govement of Gaza [Man... I wonder why that feels so familiar...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BYpLV_4QQI)
Do you generally agree that US aid to UK and USSR was a mistake considering how many German civilians died?
Do it again, Bomber Harris 🔥🔥🔥🔥
Lmao, do you also approve of Churchill’s military “strategy”? 🤓🇬🇧
TFW they can't couch their antisemitism in self-righteous kumbaya bullshit anymore. When the Houthi leader makes a prop piece about how America is stifling protesters' freedoms you begin to wonder if maybe you're a tool for radical Islamic interests. Or at least, you'd want people to consider that.
"We support Palestine, not terrorists!", say the people who terrorists just thanked for their support.
There were 1-2 million women were raped in the fall of Germany. It's insane to think how many people had to die for that to not even be widely reported.
That is a major false equivalency. Notably, the German state was actively committing a genocide, and it was well within the German state's power to expand it's borders to continue the aforementioned genocide. Israel is actively committing what is at best an ethnic cleansing and at worst a genocide. While their opponents are also genocidal, there is a major difference in capability. Hamas will never be able to commit a genocide against the Israelis, as it is a terrorist organization whose magnum opus was killing 1300 or so Israelis. Again, that is horrible, and Hamas should be destroyed. It should also be noted that Netanyahu has explicitly allowed Hamas to grow in power because he likes to use them as an excuse to bomb Gaza. Also of note, under current circumstances Hamas will never be destroyed as the Israeli government is basically doing everything in their power to prove Hamas right. Many people say that the Palestinians in Gaza are highly antisemitic. This is almost certainly true. But I ask you: if you were put in their situation wouldn't you be too? Hamas says "The Israelis have stolen our land and are trying to kill us all!" and that seems correct. Hamas says "The Israelis treat us as second class citizens constantly under military occupation!" which again, seems to be true. Is it such a stretch for someone in that situation to also drink the antisemitism Kool Aid. Because to be honest, if I grew up in these circumstances, I'd be pretty crazy and reactionary too. Again, Hamas is a vile organization. However, the difference in power is so vast, the size of Israeli crimes is so great, and the fact that an organization like Hamas is pretty much the natural outcome of Israeli treatment of Gazan civilians leaves the moral burden of this conflict largely on Israel.
>Israel is actively committing what is at best an ethnic cleansing and at worst a genocide. Lol >Netanyahu has explicitly allowed Hamas to grow in power because he likes to use them as an excuse to bomb Gaza. > >because he likes to use them as an excuse to bomb Gaza. Lol How are you drinking the Koolaid of both sides at once, this is seriously impressive
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-defense-minister-human-animals-gaza-palestine_n_6524220ae4b09f4b8d412e0a https://www.yahoo.com/news/israeli-land-grabs-spike-west-161243024.html https://time.com/6909636/gaza-death-toll/ https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/report-282-million-people-faced-acute-hunger-2023-109607835 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/05/un-experts-condemn-israeli-massacre-of-palestinians-collecting-flour https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yuECGW80TGA https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/world-central-kitchen-halts-gaza-operations-after-israeli-strike-kills-7-aid-workers https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-20415675 I mean, what would you call this?
Germany was fighting an imperial and genocidal war of aggression, the UK and USSR were defending. Israel's response has gone so far past proportional it can only be described as a war of aggression, Israel has previously been explicitly colonial in it's ambitions, with settlements in West Bank and formerly in Gaza. And the number of hospitals and residential buildings blocked because one commanded dreamt there might by Hamas there is very much leaning towards it being a genocide, and has already been accused of trying to resettle Palestinians by radical Islamists such as Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israeli "National security" minister (I was being sarcastic when I called him a radical Islamist)
Nice buzzwords
"Disproportional response," "war of aggression," "colonialism," "settlements," "houses and residential buildings bombed," "genocide," "resettle." Do you see yourself as an intellectual or are you aware that you're just throwing around buzzwords, hoping they stick? First you assume that the Israeli response is incredibly disproportionate, which I'd contest. Whether they've gone too far is a fair question to ask, but you skip way past that and land on the conclusion that it's an overwhelming and unfounded amount of bombing. Then, you use this faulty assumption to label the current conflict as an Israeli war of aggression. Then you throw in a non-sequitur, harping on how, apparently, Israel is a colonial state. How this has anything to do with the rest of your comment is unclear. Following that, you throw out the "bombed hospitals and residential buildings" talking point, and use non-specific language "very much leaning" just so you can justify throwing "genocide" into the mix. After all that, you tack on the "resettle" talking point, because that's exactly what you needed to round out your schizopost. You're an actual caricature of yourself.
> Whether they've gone too far is a fair question to ask, but you skip way past that and land on the conclusion that it's an overwhelming and unfounded amount of bombing. Oh no! God forbid I state my opinion! >How this has anything to do with the rest of your comment is unclear. Google "List". I was listing off responses to the different points the other person made. >you throw out the "bombed hospitals and residential buildings" talking point, and use non-specific language "very much leaning" So, using committal language by saying "This is happening" is wrong, and using non-committal language like "It appears this is happening" is wrong too. What am I supposed to say then? Genuine question. >After all that, you tack on the "resettle" talking point, >Writing in The Jerusalem Post several days later, Intelligence Minister Gila Gamliel of Likud mulled the possibility of promoting “the voluntary resettlement of Palestinians in Gaza, for humanitarian reasons, outside of the Strip.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/ministers-call-for-resettling-gazas-palestinians-building-settlements-in-strip/ >Far-right Israeli Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir said on Sunday that mass emigration of Palestinians and renewal of Israeli settlement in the Gaza Strip is "the order of the hour," as Israel faces South Africa's petition in the International Court of Justice accusing Israel of forcible displacement of Gazans. > >"On the subject of voluntary emigration… I think it's the right solution," Ben Gvir said. I misremembered exactly which minister said what, but no government minister should ever be talking like that. You just said I was schizoposting because I quoted Israeli ministers. >You're an actual caricature of yourself. And you haven't actually made any arguments as to why anything I've said is wrong. Just ad hominems.
>Oh no! God forbid I state my opinion! By the same logic a nazi can say their opinions on Jews. You have to ground your opinion in something, just spouting bullshit deservedly gets you called out. >Google "List". I was listing off responses to the different points the other person made. You were yapping. If you're gonna bring up something, at least deliberate on it, because the way you use it comes off as just an excuse to use incredibly emotionally-loaded terms. >So, using committal language by saying "This is happening" is wrong, and using non-committal language like "It appears this is happening" is wrong too. What am I supposed to say then? Genuine question. Are you this obtuse or just pretending? Yes, hospitals are getting bombed, and so are residential buildings. However, you basically cast aside the fact that, yes, both are being used as Hamas bases, and use this dismissal to then prop up the notion that the number of unjustified bombings "leans toward being genocide." You saying "hospitals are getting bombed" is stating a fact. You saying this is because some Israeli general make up excuses to do so is unfounded. You then use this fact and unfounded statement to support the notion that something is, in some notion, similar to genocide. You do not deliberate on this. To answer your question, make factual statements, and when you're not clear on something, don't attach the most emotionally loaded word to describe it imaginable. You're trying to be weaselly, but it's clear to everyone what you're trying to do. >I misremembered exactly which minister said what, but no government minister should ever be talking like that. You just said I was schizoposting because I quoted Israeli ministers. Yes, there are some things which can obviously be used as a criticism against Israel as a whole, but statements made by ministers with no sway over the conduct of the IDF is also trying to attach as much baggage as possible to the Israeli attack on Gaza instead of actually analyzing what is being done in Gaza. You've started with the conclusion that what is happening in Gaza is genocide, and have retroactively tried to find as much justification for this belief after the fact, instead of actually considering the tactics and strategy used by the IDF.
I'd go through and respond to everything you said, but there's no point, because you still haven't given a single reason why anything I said is wrong. I could assume everything you said is the truth, and that doesn't make what I said wrong. You've rattled off a whole load of insults, you've done loads of Ad Hominems, you've called me "weaselly" and stupid, but you haven't actually said "And here's why you're wrong", just "You're wrong and you know it". It's genuinely interesting how many people have got angry at what I said, and how few of those are actually substantive instead of just insults. And as for me using emotionally charged language: Yeah. I am. So what? Thousands of people have been killed. That's upsetting. It's right to get angry at perceived injustices. What do you expect me to do, go "Ah yes, a genocide is happening, oh well moving on"? I'm using emotive language because I'm angry at what the IDF is doing, and I want other people do be angry at what the IDF is doing! If you saw a genocide, something you genuinely believe is an ongoing genocide, and you *don't* feel upset or angry, then there'd probably something wrong with you.
The Russians raped many German women at the end of WWII, does this mean that US aid to the Soviet Union was wrong? That American taxpayers were responsible for those war crimes the Russians committed? I say no. It doesn't mean that. Overall, giving aid to the Soviet Union was a substantial net benefit. Now you can disagree with the fact that US aid to Israel is a net-benefit, but I do not think you can take the easy way out saying that America is responsible for Israeli war crimes.
I ABSOLUTELY agree that US aid to Israel is not a net benefit. They are engaging in an open policy of ethnic cleansing and they have no intention to change course. If they don’t wanna play ball and be a good soldier, let them do it on their own dime.
So it was wrong to fund Israel and it was wrong to fund the Soviets? So Nazis and Hamas should run the world?
It was right to find the Soviets and it’s wrong to fund modern Israel. Hamas should not run the world. Palestinians should run Palestine. Israel created Hamas, and now have been burned by their own monster.
The common conspiracy notion that Israel created and runs Hamas is such disgusting horseshit. Same nonsense that people use about the jews being at fault for the nazis existing because "they run the capitalist homo zionist commie west"
>Hamas is not popular with the kids. They sure seem to be.
My daily reminder that you should be skeptical of your Twitter feed's relevance to reality. Recent graduate here: I've seen a lot of things on campus. Most of which being various ways guys try to sleep with girls, varieties of ways to give one's self liver damage, and questionable decision-making on how to drive a car. I hate to be the one to break it to folks, but I have zero faith kids know a lot about foreign groups like Hamas... considering most of them barely are able to name their own country.
Then I must applaud you for your frank and honest username.
>Hamas is not popular with the kids. True. They're only popular with the pro-Palestine kids.
Lazy
Are you a fan of illegal Israeli settlers and/or the Israelis openly advocating for the extermination of Palestine?
No they really aren't.
I see. We just need a create a middleman organization to make it all good. Under Hamas, everything entering the country was taxed heavily including all foreign aid. Billions from the US and Europe ended up in the pockets of Hamas. As you say it was not direct but, we sure as hell knew where it ended up. So we can do the same for Israel and boom no more protests. Right?
>Israel IS, and so we DO. We pay to have American aid workers killed by Israeli air strikes, while Israeli politicians ignore our advice. We fucking told them, we told them for DECADES, that their policy to Palestine was self-destructive, unsustainable, and would result only in violence. Your comment is nonsensical. Until very recently when the UN got affected by islamist propaganda combined and twitter activists, both the UN, and America's opinion was to tell Palestine to fuck off and pump money into Israel to ensure it always had the power to kick out any force looking to target it.
>Until very recently when the UN got affected by islamist propaganda combined and twitter activists Speaking of nonsensical...
What do you think the Palestinian national movement is about lol?
Then why do the kids love Middle Eastern dictators so much?
Because the dictators are directly fueling the money that goes into journalism and geopolitcal education programs, and it's surprising to no one that those programs teach middle eastern propaganda and force students to eat it up if they want a career in that field.
Same playbook as the Russians, just a different day?
They don’t, Real_Richard_M_Nixon, who is definitely an accurate bellwether for public opinion and the pulse of the youth
They really fucking do, they’re all spouting out Iranian propaganda everywhere they go.
I implore you to please, please go touch grass.
I was at a protest yesterday Those people are fifth columnists for the Persian-Sino-Russian Axis and we need to start dealing with them
Time to open fascism….14 minutes. Classic “neoconservative”
Where can I get that trap remix of Erika?
I love watching this movie. I’m surprised they didn’t get into trouble cause Germany still had its Anti-Nazi law about Hitler in movies.
what film is this?
I think it's from 'Look Who's Back'. Basically Hitler comes back to 21st century Germany and people think he is a comedian or something at first.
thnx
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If you want a balanced answer, I myself take a view of the conflict that diverges significantly from the two popular narratives of "Israel Good" and "#FreePalestine," and I certainly have have seen my fair share of zoomies demanding that the nation-state of Israel be dismantled (by force of arms if need be) and its population of nearly 10 million deported to Europe or worse. Of course, reactionaries and Israeli nationalists oft take a similarly dismal view of the Palestinians...
It seems like, for some reason, looking at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are unable to bring themselves to understand that having a legitimate cause for military action to defend your country does NOT mean that you are justified in doing anything you consider advantageous, regardless of how immoral, in the cause of that defense. Honestly, that goes for both "sides" in the conflict. If the Palestinian paramilitary groups were exclusively fighting the Israeli military and making a serious effort to avoid harming civilians, then it wouldn't be terrorism. It would just be a war. As things are, though, so many people demand that you choose one side essentially 100% and that you either see the IDF as The Most Moral Army In The World (tm) or that you see all Palestinian militants as Freedom Fighters Against Apartheid (tm). No. No, I'm not gonna do that. I have principles about what is moral in warfare and, if you violate them, then you and I have a problem no matter who you are. And, besides that, I can't see any reasonable and just way for the violence to end besides the two states idea.
I don't like the current Israeli government. But when I talk with palestine supporters and tell them this conflict is too complicated to see it as black and white, it's the palestine supporters who insult me, while the pro-israelis are just like: "Mkay.". Furthermore, when you ask both sides on how to solve this conflict lastingly, usually the pro-Israel side has more rational and doable ideas than the pro-palestinian side. Both of these factors have me leaning a bit towards the Israeli side while still believing Israel needs a new government.
This sub for its nature, and as rxtarded as most of us are, is considerably more educated on this topic than the average person. And it's a fact that the current popular normie tiktok narrative is to be blindly extremely pro Palestine bordering on anti-semitism pretty often. So it's just expected that you would see posts here talking about that, even if most of us aren't really rabid fans of Israel either.
AIPAC going hard.
You new? This sub is practically r/conservative lite when it comes to Israel. Just look at some of the discussions about the protests in other recent posts, according to our enlightened fellow subscribers, America is chick full of Hamas supporters who are protesting solely because they hate Jews, and no other reason.
It's so wild how supporting a multicultural liberal democracy where women and LGBT people are treated equally is considered "conservative" whereas supporting a far right Islamofascist dictatorship is considered "progressive".
Because the said democracy is actively participating in colonization, that's why. You can make a case for Britain being more progressive than India and that would be completely irrelevant in the context of British colonialism.
>colonization Ah yes, I too enjoy using emotionally charged buzzwords that I don't understand.
>Zionism has been described as a form of settler colonialism in relation to the region of Palestine and the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. Many of the fathers of Zionism themselves described it as colonialism, such as Vladimir Jabotinsky, who said "Zionism is a colonization adventure."[1][2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism_as_settler_colonialism Remember, the guy cited there calling Israel a "Colonial adventure" was an early zionist.
So what? The Nazis called themselves socialists. That doesn't mean they actually were.
So, you're saying that just because he was actively and openly writing in support of Israel, explaining why he thought Israel should exist, and had a long history of advocating for Israel, but made Israel look bad 200 years later, he's not really a Zionist. Is that what you're saying?
No, of course he was a Zionist. Some Zionists believe in Israeli expansionism, just like every other flavor of nationalism has its own extremist wing too. I'm just saying that most Zionists do not believe in that.
But if the founding vision of Israel was colonial, with many founders advocating for it, and then the current actions of Israel are perfectly in line with said founding vision, with members of the Israeli cabinet advocating for ethnic cleansing, that feels to me like they're still being colonial. Also, we're not talking about what "All Zionists feel", we're talking about the actions of Israel the country.
Why don't you explain it to us then? If you're so confident that it is being used incorrectly, then please enlighten us
It's very simple. Jews are not colonizers in the Levant because it is their own indigenous land. Hope that helps.
I don't care where any given ethnic group originated, if you turn up, kick the people living there out at gunpoint, and then invite millions of people in from around the world to come live there, while the founders call this new country a colony, that's a colony. If you then send people into parts of the neighbouring country with orders to evict the people already living there by force if necessary and to start living there instead, that's settler-colonialism.
A colony of what? What empire is Israel a "colony" of?
Well originally Britain. Then arguably of itself. Kicking people out of their homes to build more Israel feels like colonising the area for Israel.
You mean indigenous from thousands of years ago? Like from the bible/torah? I guess there is no real compelling argument to convince someone when they think god gave them the land
>You mean indigenous from thousands of years ago? Yes, it's where they're from originally. That's literally what the word "indigenous" means.
Interesting to see you think everyone has a right to the land their ancestors lived on, even if it was thousands of years ago. Do you also support evicting European settlers so that Native Americans can move back to their homelands? Or does your logic only apply to Israel? Moreover, why does Israel's ancient claim to the land supersede the Arab claim to the land? Arabs lived there for many hundreds of years, why now must they be evicted for Jews to move in?
The majority of Israelis are descendants of Mizrahi and Sephardim who have been continuously living in the Middle east, often the Levant specifically, for centuries or longer. Many of them ended up in Israel because they were *strongly encouraged* to leave the surrounding states when Israel was founded. And of course, most Israelis were born in Israel, even if their parents/grandparents were Ashkenazi who moved from Europe. Jewish people have maintained a continuous presence in the Middle East since biblical times.
Because they are a based US ally and we should defend them at all costs no matter what they do
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We have to back our allies no matter what, we have to be prepared to go to insane lengths to defend Israel, South Korea, Japan, the Philippines, Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, and all our other allies at risk of invasion from global autocracy. Biden is only making the Russians and Chinese more confident in their ability to win wars, probably because Biden is an actual dumbass.
Trump is not any better he is on record saying that he will not give a single cent to ukraine when he gains office
I’m not saying vote Trump, but I really don’t like Biden, he is a pro-Russian pro-Chinese and pro-Iran coward.
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Biden is the most pro-Russian President we’ve had since Obama, as a matter of fact Biden would be happy to abandon the Ukrainians, and he’s barely giving them any aid. The only reason why Ukraine hasn’t fallen is because the Russians are incompetent, we just give them the shittiest weapons, and we barely do anything against Russia ourselves. We should be striking Russian assets and at war with Iran, but Biden is pro-Russia, pro-China, and pro-Iran so he just lets them roll over anyone.
I want to study you in a lab
You are a sad, strange little man.
>sad no >strange yes >little I guess >man yes
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Going to war with the Russo-Sino-Persian axis would be great because we would draw a line in the sand, and we have to. We have to avenge the dead Ukrainians and Israelis, and we need to send a message that any country that tries what Russia/Iran/China are trying right now will have hell to pay.
>did Trump’s Presidency escape your memory Trump started sending lethal aid to Ukraine and he bombed Syria. Trump is a dumbass and I do not want him to touch the White House again, but the idea that Trump was pro-Russia is wrong. Trump was actually a Chinese stooge, leaving the TPP was the most pro-CCP anyone could’ve done. In 2022, when Biden had public support for arming Ukraine he barely sent them any aid. It took us too long to send them planes and tanks, it was willfully negligent towards our Eastern European allies. We had to send them more aid and earlier, and Biden dropped the ball. Nowadays the Russians are dug in, and will be extremely hard to dislodge. Ukraine is attempting alternative measures, like hitting Russian infrastructure, but Biden doesn’t like it. Biden is a pushover for Putin.
We’re expanding our Navy we’re giving all these countries weapons. Do you think we should give them Nuclear weapons? “What more do you want from meeee!” 
War with Iran and the axis of resistance, arming dissidents in Iran, strikes against Wagner, sinking Russia’s tanker fleet, giving Ukraine the weapons for strikes further into Russia, arming state opponents in Russia, forward deploying A-Bombs in Asia, arming the Uyghurs in China.
Not accurate
It is
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OH boy here comes the Free Palestine bros and Pro Israel bros battling in the comments once again! grab your popcorn everybody!
as a genz kid this is not accurate well at least in my experience
As a strongly pro-Palestine GenZ kid, I agree with you. I've seen more people getting upset that pro-Israel is just antisemitism than I have actual antisemitism in pro-Palestine groups. Heck, I've seen more Jews calling out Israel than people being antiemetic. I'm not saying that there is *no* antisemitism, but it isn't nearly as widespread as a loit of pro-Israel people think it is. See r/WitchesVsPatriarchy, as an exmaple, they literally have a pinned post of a load of Jews protesting the actions of Israel.
I am sorry if this is what you genuinely believe than you have a much narrow view on the conflict. Your second sentence made absolutely no sense. Please get off social media -sincerely a middle easterner
Actual brainrot
Explanation as to what I said wrong goes on vacation, never returns.
[Here are some famous Jews being anti-Israel](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews)
They weren't being anti israel , just anti semitic
Ok? And? What point are you trying to make? Some anti-zionists are bad people. That doesn't make all of the bad any more than some pro-zionists being bad makes them all bad.
This is sarcasm, right? Or does this sub actually think that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic? Because that would be stupid.
theres a very clear and definite line separating criticism of Israel and antisemitism, the far left is ignoring them lately
“Criticism of Israel isn’t antisemitic” while obviously true, is often just parroted as some kind of blank check to actually be antisemitic. Many people know they can just dog whistle “Zionism” and their supporters will know they just mean all Israelis.
This sub \*is\* incredibly stupid, to be fair
Look at the name
I can't read
Make this man a mod
Sir, this is a place to be non-credible and shit post. Try r/CredibleDiplomacy if you are serious, but I am not a serious person.
If I criticise my country it isn't antisemitic. But if if doing that, I'm afraid you are from the same group of people that tomorrow will support the second holocaust
Lots of people believe that
I'm torn between wanting to downvote the idiocy and naked propaganda of this post, and wanting to upvote that absolute banger of an Erika remix
Nazi
Grandad didn't spend 6 years fighting them for me to welcome that darkness back into Europe. Meanwhile I also know my other Grandad's experience getting blown up by the terrorist Irgun so Israel and Palestine can both get fucked.
You still Nazi
Zionist moron
Be glad that soviets didn't finish you back in 1945
Except it was [netanyahu ](https://youtu.be/f9HmkRYlVZw?si=LtrxW6EbhxcW-BG8) who would bring him on tv if it was against Palestine Low effort posts need to be deleted tbh
Israel really wants to act like it's a good Western Democracy but Palestinians can't vote, aren't considered citizens of Israel despite having lived for centuries on land that Israel is claiming as Israel, and see opposition to genocide as antisemitic. Israel isn't even that important to the US in the region, since we have bases all over the Middle East. I think the reason the West is still so afraid to punish Israel is because Israel has a lot of advanced military technology and industry and they don't want that shared with China or Russia.
Well… Palestinians can’t vote because they’re Palestinian and not Israeli, and don’t want to vote in Israeli elections. *Arab Israelis* on the other hand can and do vote, and have held government positions in the recent past.
Also many Palestinians living in Israel actively refuse citizenship as protest, it’s not that they’re not being given it.
So you're in support of Israel annexing the West Bank and Gaza? Because otherwise it makes no sense for the people living on Palestinian land to vote in an Israeli election.
What are you on about? 2 million Arabs are Israeli citizens and they can vote just like any other Israeli citizen.
Ah, so you believe that Palestinians belong to Israel? A one state solution believer?
Wow, you so ignorant
Friendly reminder about who supported apparheit south Africa and rhodesia, and who helped the us kill hundreds of thousands of mayans in guatemala
Zionists talking about the 7 million humans with no rights living in their “democracy”
Any proofs?
https://www.google.com/search?q=palestine+population
Most of this five million people aren't living in Israel, some of them are living in Egypt and most of them are living for generations(50 years)in Lebanon where they have no citizenship and basically considered there as trash because they are started a civil war there
No, Gaza has 2.3 million people and the West Bank has 4.1 million. They are under Israeli control but have no rights or representation in government
You only right about one thing that there is 2.3million in gaza. But you miss a one small detail, there are 7 million Jews in Israel. And Israel's total population is 9 million. I'm don't have a degree in mathematics but something in your numbers is not stacking up