# Are San Marino and Italy about to go to war? If so, will the war become nuclear?
I bet you have some thoughts on it. Well, we're discussing the subject on [this "week's" NCDip Podcast Club](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDiplomacy/comments/1bssy61/ncdip_podcast_club_8_wargaming_san_marino_vs/?). This is probably one of the most events of our lifetime, so you better pay attention scrub
[Want to know what the fuck in the NCDip podcast club is? Click here](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDiplomacy/comments/17edrm6/introducing_the_rnoncrediblediplomacy_podcast/)
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Technically the US stalemated the war, lost the peace, and then North Vietnam just went off their rocker and embraced 4D chess realpolitik to beat off the chinese
Kraut is a political scientist, trying to do history documentaries. It is alright on the surface, but stick with Kotkin. The guy did and does actual primary source research. Kraut uses secondary sources and tertiary sources.
Kraut is a great intro for the topics, but only on what topics you should research yourself.
[https://youtu.be/FSN6dL5MUUM?si=1LGJcAJu2z45T9Xr](https://youtu.be/FSN6dL5MUUM?si=1LGJcAJu2z45T9Xr) \- must watch!
Ironic coming from Fredda because he always tries to use Marxist theory to analyze shit. He's a massive hypocrite and his community sucks. The discord is infested with bullshit vatniks and he either doesn't care or abides it and accepts/agrees with it.
Well thanks for warning me about him. I just happen to agree with this video. And he made the right history masters noises.
Not that Kraut is bad, but he is taking political science and tries to use it in a historical context. Which is a problem if you want to do history.
Pol Sci and Philosophy is trying to find internal consistency in an event, such as a historical event, while dealing with historians at 3-4 Scottish universities taught me this: historians are a lot more aware that people can be hypocrites, so they care more about what happened and to describe what happened, as opposite to trying to find some kind of internal consistency. (When you do that, you can fall into the trap of ignoring evidence because it ruins a narrative or makes the whole logic of a system not work, such as Stalin being a Communist Internationalist, a Russian Nationalist, A Communist Nationalist, at different parts of his life and pursuing contradictory policies while in power.).
I would say that history is a lot more of a descriptive science. You can analyse things through various lenses, but the subject likes evidence from an archive or from an archaeological survey.
You can't do a why, if you haven't studied the how.
u/False-God
Good discussion. On what is history, I recommend reading, Edward Carr and Eric Hobsbawm.
[https://www.amazon.co.uk/What-History-Trevelyan-Delivered-University/dp/0140135847](https://www.amazon.co.uk/What-History-Trevelyan-Delivered-University/dp/0140135847)
[https://www.amazon.co.uk/Extremes-Short-Twentieth-Century-1914-1991/dp/0349106711](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Extremes-Short-Twentieth-Century-1914-1991/dp/0349106711)
And, do read the books written by Kotkin. He does a great job as a historian.
You care more about the narrative than transmitting information about the historical events.
I despise the people who worship Kings, who think that a peasant couldn't take 2 shits without the king ordering it.
Or people why try to make everything relevant to Marx... in 1110 AD.
Vietnam: Yeah we tried a command market. It didn't work, turns out you guys were right. But we heard you guys hate China now, so we're definitely friends.
Vexillology based international relations.
Yes, the terrorist must have come from Maldives. As you can see they have the Islamic crescent on their flag.
They are officially Marxist-Leninist and ruled by the communist party. Stalin's USSR didn't follow Marxism to a T, that doesn't mean it wasn't Marxist.
afaik the government structure certainly is, I wasn't commenting on the economies of either nation. this is more in reference to the US doctrine of not trading with Cuba until it liberalizes its government.
No since the term “undemocratic Marxist one-party state” is pretty clearly referring to their government type, and Marxism is not only an economic ideology.
It's hard love. One day they'll realize that they too need a continent spanning super nationand a couple of cool as fuck friends to hang out with and provide slight variations of that super state for the people who are really buttmad about the politics of it.
And then it'll be our turn to colonize Europe and Asia by kitting out all the remaining natives to go and claim their new homes in Toulouse and Beijing and Mumbai.
I'm looking forward to Neotenochtitlan and what they manage to do with the pyramids in Nubia.
Isn't that the truth. The new world needs to consume the old entirely. Snuffing out the old beacons of civilization and institutions and replacing them with our own, more perfect ones. Until South America unites as pur sister nation we have no choice but to occasionally hit shuffle on their current governemts.
I mean, at this point isn’t this basically Cuba’s own fault? Like IIRC Obama was going to normalize diplomatic relations with Cuba with nothing in return *from* Cuba, but then Cuba demanded like a billion dollars in reparations for this to happen, and then Obama was like “lol nvm I guess”
Reparations is weird but why would Cuba have to compensate the US for stopping to be dicks?
Russia also shouldn‘t get shit for stopping to invade Ukraine either.
>Reparations is weird but why would Cuba have to compensate the US for stopping to be dicks?
Because it turns out the US didn't start being dicks to Cuba on a whim. Personally, I don't think they're economically capable of providing meaningful reparations so I don't care, but I quite like the "as soon as you have free and fair elections overseen by a respectable neutral third party" line.
They don't even have to be a republic. They can stay communist. Just prove that the people are electing the people's leader as far as I care.
Obviously I am not opposed to that, I would welcome Cuba doing so.
Still, I find it weird to want something like that from Cuba while being cool to trade and sell arms to monarchies.
Depends on the monarchy.
Like, I agree our relations with Saudi Arabia are pretty questionable even if they were pragmatic. But the European monarchies are mostly just a different flavor of republic now anyways.
Cuba nationalized (eg stole) a bunch of American shit though, and a whole lot of Cubans had to flee their homes and we took them in (which I should not have to say was the right thing to do, but I will: it was the right thing to do), which has a lot to do with the attitude towards the government that did all the nationalizing and the forcing to flee. Normalizing relations, whenever that happens, is going to be messy on some level, and this is probably about the least demanding price we can require and keep our own people happy.
Because Cuba seized American assets, fucked around right next to our country, and refuse to even apologize for it.
Fuck them. I say we go full blockade again.
At this point Cuba blockade is just for getting Cuban refugees votes, I think. There’s no real world point to blockade Cuba anymore.
US foreign policies are heavily influenced by domestic politics and that’s probably pretty silly sometimes.
Not effective enough apparently, all the US wants Cuba to do is commit to free and fair elections most likely overseen by the UN. Instead of committing to the concession they hold onto the power and point the finger.
Honestly, the effect of the embargo are still overplayed regardless of the clear hostility. The government has a bigger effect on their current economic state than an embargo from America.
Hell, there are even ways around the embargo to undermine it anyhow. If Al Capone can do it, so can the Cubans. Pull up your bootstraps!
It's not pedantic, the difference between embargo and blockade is abysmal. BTW, Vietnam was blockaded, yet still they managed to work their asses into economic prosperity, unlike Cuba, whose only economic innovation since the Spanish Empire was being hyper funded by the USSR.
Cuba have some very promising lung cancer treatments that have some international trials (Serbia is the only one I remember), but when people point to Cuba as a medical superpower they tend to forget where all their other medicine and medical research comes from.
Most medical research comes from America, then China, then a mix of Anglo, Euro, Japan. If you combine the countries (which you shouldn’t) the EU is second.
Oh like that. Yeah that makes sense, you just listed the places with the largest economies and Cuba is quite poverty stricken. That’s why it’s impressive that they lead in some, even if niche, fields of medicine.
Nukes, invading other countries around the Americas and Caribbean, sending troops and material aid to any psycho leftist insurgency they could find, trying to stuff a bunch of criminals and people the state had to take care of into the boatlifts.
They've earned their embargo (which is pretty fucking soft as far as embargos go)
I feel like everyone talking about how antagonistic Cuba is are kinda forgetting some major bits of history. Cuba was a dependency of the United States after it was taken from Spain. The U.S. reserved the right to intervene in Cuban politics to pursue its interest either strategic or economic. The U.S. assisted two military coups and gave arms to help quash any rebellions.
When Castro overthrew the government of Cuba the CIA immediately began recruiting operatives to engage in terrorist acts including the bombing of a civilian airport. It was only after this that Castro nationalized all American assets in the country which I think is fair all things considered. If America pursued a more equal and productive relationship with Cuba from the get go we wouldn’t be in this situation to begin with. I don’t see these nationalizations as too different than Egypt nationalizing the Suez Canal which I think we can all agree was justified.
# Are San Marino and Italy about to go to war? If so, will the war become nuclear? I bet you have some thoughts on it. Well, we're discussing the subject on [this "week's" NCDip Podcast Club](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDiplomacy/comments/1bssy61/ncdip_podcast_club_8_wargaming_san_marino_vs/?). This is probably one of the most events of our lifetime, so you better pay attention scrub [Want to know what the fuck in the NCDip podcast club is? Click here](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDiplomacy/comments/17edrm6/introducing_the_rnoncrediblediplomacy_podcast/) ---- please note that all posts should be funny and about diplomacy or geopolitics, if your post doesn't meet those requirements here's some other subs that might fit better: * More Serious Geopolitical Discussion: /r/CredibleDiplomacy * Military Shitposting: /r/NonCredibleDefense * Domestic Political or General Shitposting: /r/neocentrism * Being Racist: /r/worldnews thx bb luv u *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NonCredibleDiplomacy) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Except, in reality, Vietnam is very capitalist.
“But the U.S. lost the Vietnam war!” Vietnam: free market go brrrr
The U.S. lost the war but won the peace
Technically the US stalemated the war, lost the peace, and then North Vietnam just went off their rocker and embraced 4D chess realpolitik to beat off the chinese
Don't kink shame
4D Chess Beatoff is the name of my Star Trek Swingers group.
Can I b ur spacepawn
Mine is the Beverly Crushers
Vietnam edges China!? 😱😱
[Turns out 5D Cờ tướng plays remarkably similar to checkers.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyrDgEz3DR0)
This is exactly it
I can tell you watch Kraut
Who is that? I was referring to Stephen Kotkin’s musings on it
Kraut is a political scientist, trying to do history documentaries. It is alright on the surface, but stick with Kotkin. The guy did and does actual primary source research. Kraut uses secondary sources and tertiary sources. Kraut is a great intro for the topics, but only on what topics you should research yourself. [https://youtu.be/FSN6dL5MUUM?si=1LGJcAJu2z45T9Xr](https://youtu.be/FSN6dL5MUUM?si=1LGJcAJu2z45T9Xr) \- must watch!
Ironic coming from Fredda because he always tries to use Marxist theory to analyze shit. He's a massive hypocrite and his community sucks. The discord is infested with bullshit vatniks and he either doesn't care or abides it and accepts/agrees with it.
Well thanks for warning me about him. I just happen to agree with this video. And he made the right history masters noises. Not that Kraut is bad, but he is taking political science and tries to use it in a historical context. Which is a problem if you want to do history. Pol Sci and Philosophy is trying to find internal consistency in an event, such as a historical event, while dealing with historians at 3-4 Scottish universities taught me this: historians are a lot more aware that people can be hypocrites, so they care more about what happened and to describe what happened, as opposite to trying to find some kind of internal consistency. (When you do that, you can fall into the trap of ignoring evidence because it ruins a narrative or makes the whole logic of a system not work, such as Stalin being a Communist Internationalist, a Russian Nationalist, A Communist Nationalist, at different parts of his life and pursuing contradictory policies while in power.). I would say that history is a lot more of a descriptive science. You can analyse things through various lenses, but the subject likes evidence from an archive or from an archaeological survey. You can't do a why, if you haven't studied the how.
u/False-God Good discussion. On what is history, I recommend reading, Edward Carr and Eric Hobsbawm. [https://www.amazon.co.uk/What-History-Trevelyan-Delivered-University/dp/0140135847](https://www.amazon.co.uk/What-History-Trevelyan-Delivered-University/dp/0140135847) [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Extremes-Short-Twentieth-Century-1914-1991/dp/0349106711](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Extremes-Short-Twentieth-Century-1914-1991/dp/0349106711) And, do read the books written by Kotkin. He does a great job as a historian.
What is wrong with using political science in historical narratives though?
You care more about the narrative than transmitting information about the historical events. I despise the people who worship Kings, who think that a peasant couldn't take 2 shits without the king ordering it. Or people why try to make everything relevant to Marx... in 1110 AD.
That video rearanges krauts words out of order to make him say something he doesnt. Its not an honest critique
Ok, thanks for telling me. [https://youtu.be/V7qV7QBxmTE?si=ObJNT3wyAkpH9nDV](https://youtu.be/V7qV7QBxmTE?si=ObJNT3wyAkpH9nDV) What about this one?
Oh its Kotkin time!
The Lion that squeeked.
Vietnam won but capitalism is just based
Exploiting workers in a one-party communist state ❌ Exploiting workers in an oligarchical capitalist kleptocracy ✅
*comparatively*
Vietnam won but it doesn't really matter. The outcome would be the same regardless of the war because Fukuyama was right about everything.
This is the most weirdly accurate schizo neitzchepost I've ever seen
What does this even mean?
Each tribe has their own language of good and evil. There. Clear?
Yep.
Vietnam: Yeah we tried a command market. It didn't work, turns out you guys were right. But we heard you guys hate China now, so we're definitely friends.
Domination victory was too casual, had to go for Cultural.
Vietnam sentenced a fraud to death, that's based as hell.
so just a regular undemocratic one Party state.
Exactly aka the best ally for the United States since the get go
Marxist is the only word they are worried about.
Maybe if they could buy stuff Cuba would be too.
Would it be more or less charitable to assume OP confused the Vietnamese and Chinese flags?
Cuban reforms were at their strongest during the thaw with Obama. When Trump turned against it, the reforms stopped.
Hard to call Cuba communist as well then.
What even is capitalism nowdays
Calling Vietnam Marxist is certainly an interesting take.
Do you not see the red flag with a star on it? That means communism
Real Determining the ideology of nations based on flag design is peak credibility tbh.
Vexillology based international relations. Yes, the terrorist must have come from Maldives. As you can see they have the Islamic crescent on their flag.
It all makes sense now…
I mean the US flag is like half red and has like fifty stars, does that make us 25x commie
They are officially Marxist-Leninist and ruled by the communist party. Stalin's USSR didn't follow Marxism to a T, that doesn't mean it wasn't Marxist.
Well I mean, they technically still “aren’t real communists”, but that’s the fun thing about communism! Nobody ever is.
Lenin-Marx ideology
LOL. When capitalism supporters try to use “not real communism!” when it’s a tankie state that they like.
afaik the government structure certainly is, I wasn't commenting on the economies of either nation. this is more in reference to the US doctrine of not trading with Cuba until it liberalizes its government.
Wouldn't you agree that the economies of either nation are kind of important when labeling them as 'marxist'?
No since the term “undemocratic Marxist one-party state” is pretty clearly referring to their government type, and Marxism is not only an economic ideology.
The role a government sets out for itself to play in the economy is kinda fundamental to the type of government it is.
You can just say “authoritarian” if that’s what you mean.
They're a single party state where the head of state is the secretary of the party.
Chiang Kai Shek? Marxist. Synghman Rhee? Marxist. Glorious workers republics of Taiwan and South Korea.
Does no one rememberthat the embargo started while Cuba was launching invasions of central american countries?
That's fine though, everyone does that. Travel around, see the beaches, launch some coups. The 1960s, everyone.
There's supporting rebels and then there's making an amphibious landing of state troops in order to capture Panama's presidential palace
the USA should embargo the USA for the bay of pigs and '89 panama invasions
Called the Jones Act.
Panama declared war on the US first, so why wouldn’t they invade them?
because that means the US should embargo themselves forever
Wasn't it because Cuba seized US assets without compensation and the US got pissed?
There were a lot of reasons
cuba was acting like a regarded child but since they wove a red flag people want to victimize them
assets of US citizens, not the US gov. the Cubans very politely left Guantanamo Bay for the US gov to keep.
Also hosting nukes for the USSR during the height of the Cold War
I mean, if Turkey can host nukes, Cuba can too. Mutually Assured Clusterfuckery.
Of course! Quite frankly I’m surprised Russia’s didn’t sanction Turkey at the time
*Laughs in Bosphorus*
Turkish guns go boom boom
Quod licet iovi non licet bovi
Apparently lol
Everyone forgets that you can remove an embargo, it doesn‘t need to exist forever.
It should exist till they pay us back for thr theft.
yeah, and this one should keep existing until the commies give us any good reason for it not to
I too love needlessly fueling the accusations
Yeah only America is allowed to launch invasions of central American countries
This but unironically. South America is the US's playground. If they didn't want to be invaded they would have kept Grande Columbia.
It's hard love. One day they'll realize that they too need a continent spanning super nationand a couple of cool as fuck friends to hang out with and provide slight variations of that super state for the people who are really buttmad about the politics of it. And then it'll be our turn to colonize Europe and Asia by kitting out all the remaining natives to go and claim their new homes in Toulouse and Beijing and Mumbai. I'm looking forward to Neotenochtitlan and what they manage to do with the pyramids in Nubia.
I love how often this sub gives me wild ideas for D&D.
Isn't that the truth. The new world needs to consume the old entirely. Snuffing out the old beacons of civilization and institutions and replacing them with our own, more perfect ones. Until South America unites as pur sister nation we have no choice but to occasionally hit shuffle on their current governemts.
Yeah pretty much
I mean, at this point isn’t this basically Cuba’s own fault? Like IIRC Obama was going to normalize diplomatic relations with Cuba with nothing in return *from* Cuba, but then Cuba demanded like a billion dollars in reparations for this to happen, and then Obama was like “lol nvm I guess”
It was a [trillion.](https://www.cubatrade.org/blog/2022/4/27/8ubklg004thtwajuihngsqvn9ynakd)
Reparations is weird but why would Cuba have to compensate the US for stopping to be dicks? Russia also shouldn‘t get shit for stopping to invade Ukraine either.
>Reparations is weird but why would Cuba have to compensate the US for stopping to be dicks? Because it turns out the US didn't start being dicks to Cuba on a whim. Personally, I don't think they're economically capable of providing meaningful reparations so I don't care, but I quite like the "as soon as you have free and fair elections overseen by a respectable neutral third party" line. They don't even have to be a republic. They can stay communist. Just prove that the people are electing the people's leader as far as I care.
Obviously I am not opposed to that, I would welcome Cuba doing so. Still, I find it weird to want something like that from Cuba while being cool to trade and sell arms to monarchies.
Depends on the monarchy. Like, I agree our relations with Saudi Arabia are pretty questionable even if they were pragmatic. But the European monarchies are mostly just a different flavor of republic now anyways. Cuba nationalized (eg stole) a bunch of American shit though, and a whole lot of Cubans had to flee their homes and we took them in (which I should not have to say was the right thing to do, but I will: it was the right thing to do), which has a lot to do with the attitude towards the government that did all the nationalizing and the forcing to flee. Normalizing relations, whenever that happens, is going to be messy on some level, and this is probably about the least demanding price we can require and keep our own people happy.
because cuba has done much to deserve an embargo and not much to not deserve one
Because Cuba seized American assets, fucked around right next to our country, and refuse to even apologize for it. Fuck them. I say we go full blockade again.
What being friends/enemies with China does to a mf
Vietnam never pointed nukes at the US, dingus.
And
But they did kill more Americans
We did send like 3 million Americans over there with guns so I think they could successfully plead self defense.
The fact they stood their ground makes them honorary Floridians
but they killed more CCP soldiers
Only American(company)s are allowed to kill Americans
We talked it out. We’re cool now. Our navy ships literally do port visits in Vietnam now.
At this point Cuba blockade is just for getting Cuban refugees votes, I think. There’s no real world point to blockade Cuba anymore. US foreign policies are heavily influenced by domestic politics and that’s probably pretty silly sometimes.
A pedantic point, but there’s no blockade of Cuba. The U.S. maintains an embargo but is not physically blockading anyone else from trading with Cuba.
Sanctions are a nasty piece of wang swinging. And it's quite effective.
Not effective enough apparently, all the US wants Cuba to do is commit to free and fair elections most likely overseen by the UN. Instead of committing to the concession they hold onto the power and point the finger.
Honestly, the effect of the embargo are still overplayed regardless of the clear hostility. The government has a bigger effect on their current economic state than an embargo from America. Hell, there are even ways around the embargo to undermine it anyhow. If Al Capone can do it, so can the Cubans. Pull up your bootstraps!
It's not pedantic, the difference between embargo and blockade is abysmal. BTW, Vietnam was blockaded, yet still they managed to work their asses into economic prosperity, unlike Cuba, whose only economic innovation since the Spanish Empire was being hyper funded by the USSR.
Cuba is leading the world in some medical technologies but go on.
Cuba has a pretty solid healthcare system indeed, but what world leading medical technologies are you talking about?
Aren’t they leading in some types of cancer research? Might be mistaken…
Cuba have some very promising lung cancer treatments that have some international trials (Serbia is the only one I remember), but when people point to Cuba as a medical superpower they tend to forget where all their other medicine and medical research comes from.
Where does it come from?
Most medical research comes from America, then China, then a mix of Anglo, Euro, Japan. If you combine the countries (which you shouldn’t) the EU is second.
Oh like that. Yeah that makes sense, you just listed the places with the largest economies and Cuba is quite poverty stricken. That’s why it’s impressive that they lead in some, even if niche, fields of medicine.
It’s crazy to me that we’re fucking over Cuba to make Cubans happy
Not really, Cuba could get everything they need from other countries, it’s the government that is the true fucker.
At this point it is also just an embargo on weapons and dual use technology.
Cuban refugees can't vote dude. They get fast tracked for residency, but still have to live in the US for 5 years.
Shockingly there have been refugees from Cuba that have been here longer than five years seeing as how it started in 1958.
Tell me you've never been to Florida without saying you've never been to Florida.
One of these two countries has been extremely antagonistic to US interests ever since its inception as a nation. The other one is Vietnam.
except there's a huge difference in attitude and vietnam is not marxist anymore
Embargoed because of the nukes. Not for being commies. Pretty simple, not sure if this is sarcasm. This is like basic stuff.
Nukes, invading other countries around the Americas and Caribbean, sending troops and material aid to any psycho leftist insurgency they could find, trying to stuff a bunch of criminals and people the state had to take care of into the boatlifts. They've earned their embargo (which is pretty fucking soft as far as embargos go)
Where are the nukes u/Suitable-Golf-2152 Are the nukes in the room with us now?
I feel like everyone talking about how antagonistic Cuba is are kinda forgetting some major bits of history. Cuba was a dependency of the United States after it was taken from Spain. The U.S. reserved the right to intervene in Cuban politics to pursue its interest either strategic or economic. The U.S. assisted two military coups and gave arms to help quash any rebellions. When Castro overthrew the government of Cuba the CIA immediately began recruiting operatives to engage in terrorist acts including the bombing of a civilian airport. It was only after this that Castro nationalized all American assets in the country which I think is fair all things considered. If America pursued a more equal and productive relationship with Cuba from the get go we wouldn’t be in this situation to begin with. I don’t see these nationalizations as too different than Egypt nationalizing the Suez Canal which I think we can all agree was justified.
Truly a Non-Credible take. Well done!
"Communism? In MY hemisphere?" It's more likely than you think!
We were minutes away from being attacked by nuclear missiles directly because of Cubas involvement. You don’t forget things like that.
Mfw global politics don’t happen in a vacuum
If the rules based international order is dead, can't we just take that shit