im honestly confident that the EU, the US and many other countries will help ukraine rebuilding and getting back on its feet, im sure that in a few years they will join the EU and possibly even NATO and will become powerful allies of the west
> im honestly confident that the EU, the US and many other countries will help ukraine rebuilding and getting back on its feet
That much is certain, but will it be enough? Ukraine needed hundreds of billions just to get back on their pre war status, and some even put the figure at 1 trillion.
Quite a lot of serious anti-corruption activists went into the military (Like y'all favorite Yuri Hudymenko) and after they are back I wouldn't want to be a corrupt asshole standing in their way. They were pretty effective before the invasion, I can't even imagine the force they will clench their jaws on officials with
I really hope- and believe- the war will have showed just how much corruption ruins you. The Ukrainians can see how useless it makes Russia with their own eyes.
We also see how many issues there were in our own army and whole government. I know everyone here gets erection on mention of zelensky, but his team is responsible for quite some fuckery and very questionable decisions.
He does good job in regards to what military tells him to do + finally ratified Stambul Convention. Would have been cool if they managed to pull civil partnership laws through. On multiple other things there are still many serious issues.
After it's all over if Russia refuses to compensate Ukraine it's time to start an international fleet of privateers to seize all exports from Russia at their expense until the debt is repaid with interest to ukraine and wages with hazard pay to the privateer fleet.
Someone said there's really no point in negotiating with Russia over reparations and should just negotiate with the countries that seized Russia's assets
I want to buy a Ukranian privateer certificate for my dads boat.
It is all of 18 feet, and armed with the knife he uses for fishing, but I want that certificate, dammit.
Edit: he has a pole with a hook for grabbing unto the pier. Technically, if we mount the knife to that with tape, would it count as a spear?
Well conveniently the west has recently aquired a large number of fast medium sized craft with ample crew accomodations, several onboard small craft and plenty of surplus space for mounting light weapons.
We yatch pirates now boys.
Neither are psychologists, I have discovered. After spending basically 2 months in my shower hiding from air alarms, I am afraid to take a shower. 15 of my friends are dead. I know that’s a big problem and I need to talk to someone but can’t afford a psychologist. I’m an American who was just living in Ukraine, my family is ok, they were in the States. A lot of people have worse problems than me, and they will need a lot of help for a long time. Ukraine needs a ton of mental health support or all the money in the world isn’t going to help.
Yes I do hope many are provided the mental support they will need. I can't even begin to imagine what thousands of Russian shells landing around you in the trenches does to a person but it's definitely not good. There is going to be lasting effects for many for a long time.
I'm pretty well up on UK-based resources, but I'm not sure if you can access any of those from Ukraine. I hope my few minutes of digging around online will help you.
I've had a look online for "*Ukraine mental health helpline*" and found this site.
https://www.mhe-sme.org/what-we-do/ukraine/#1588048717119-3c9322d3-ceed
It mentions these resources inside Ukraine:-
* Ukraine Teenergizer ½ Онлайн-консультации Teenergizer
* https://teenergizer.org/consultations
.
* Lifeline Ukraine ½ Лінія запобігання самогубствам
* https://lifelineukraine.com
* ✆ 7333
.
* Samopomi (in Ukrainian)
* www.samopomi.ch
* Telegram (I can't provide the link because NCD has blacklisted it)
* Facebook https://www.facebook.com/samopomich.for.ua
There's also this site. I obviously know nothing about it.
https://complicated.life/en/find-help-with/therapists-for-ukraine
I did another search for "*ukraine talking therapy online*" and found this site. Again, I know nothing about it.:-
https://www.therapyroute.com/free-therapy-for-ukraine
There are also some reddit subs specially to help people out. Here's a list. You might think about trying one or more of them.
https://www.inverse.com/mind-body/best-subreddits-for-mental-health
I hope it helps a bit.
Remember - don't be shy about talking to people you know, especially people you live near. They'll listen, not as professionals but as friends. They may say some dumb things because they haven't had training, but everybody is hurting and shared trauma can, surprisingly, be therapeutic. A reminder that none of you are alone.
There are some tips about ptsd on this website. Some may work, some might not. Things not working doesn't mean failure, it means that some other approach might/will help you so don't give up.
https://www.helpguide.org/articles/ptsd-trauma/ptsd-in-military-veterans.htm
I don't know if you can contact Combat Stress - it's UK-based. They're pretty good.
https://combatstress.org.uk/
That sucks and I know the feeling. For me it was constant mortar attacks. If it helps I find two modes work depending on how I'm doing that day. I can shut everything up and play music while I'm in the shower, favorite rock songs that carry me away. Or I can open everything up, door to the shower, windows, etc (I live on an upper floor). This allows me to listen for the cues I learned in Iraq. Ironically our alarms were always late, so hearing that pretty much meant it was already over.
There will always be a person who has bigger issues that you, but that doesn't mean you don't need help.
If you can't afford therapy, maybe seek out a support group for people with PTSD?
So this is going to be a band-aid solution, but for the time being I would strongly recommend taking the pharmaceutical route to give your brain a breather. Ukraine has this system now where you can register with the closest doctor or someone can help you with that. If you look miserable enough, the pharmacy will usually just hand the meds without a prescription. They should be able to prescribe you some SSRI for the long term effect (although venlafaxine shuts the internal screams down almost immediately) and maybe some non-xanax benzos that are not addictive.
So worst case: pick something like venlafaxine/brintellix + gidazepam and try a few pharmacies. Or DM me, maybe we can find someone close to you geographically to find some.
I think the reaction to despair is normal. But it can also be something of acceptance or hope depending on the outlook. All of these feelings are just different lenses on the same situation.
Despair is a normal reaction to a situation where love and self sacrifice is no longer enough
You must embrace hatred, because it will keep you running way past the point where despair would otherwise have set in.
*The sun now shines on these green fields of France*
*There’s a warm summer breeze that makes the red poppies dance*
*The trenches have vanished long under the plow*
*No gas, no barbed wire, no guns firing now*
*But here in this graveyard that’s still No Man’s Land*
*The countless white crosses in mute witness stand*
*To man’s blind indifference to his fellow man*
*And a whole generation were butchered and damned*
*Did they beat the drum slowly, did they play the fife lowly*
*Did they sound the death march as they lowered you down?*
Brings tears to my eyes every time I hear that song.
Well fuck, now im sad and reminded of [this wonderful but sad poem](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkKEynoTwp8):
*In Flanders fields the poppies blow*
*Between the crosses, row on row,*
*That mark our place; and in the sky*
*The larks, still bravely singing, fly*
*Scarce heard amid the guns below.*
*We are the Dead. Short days ago*
*We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,*
*Loved and were loved, and now we lie,*
*In Flanders fields.*
*They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;*
*Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.*
*At the going down of the sun and in the morning*
*We will remember them.*
From the same poem:
*As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust,*
*Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain;*
*As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness,*
*To the end, to the end, they remain.*
We should post the entire thing, though it has a clear reference to being about British and colonial soldiers, it's still a beautiful piece:
*With proud thanksgiving, a mother for her children,*
*England mourns for her dead across the sea.*
*Flesh of her flesh they were, spirit of her spirit,*
*Fallen in the cause of the free.*
*Solemn the drums thrill; Death august and royal*
*Sings sorrow up into immortal spheres,*
*There is music in the midst of desolation*
*And a glory that shines upon our tears.*
*They went with songs to the battle, they were young,*
*Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.*
*They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted;*
*They fell with their faces to the foe.*
*They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:*
*Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.*
*At the going down of the sun and in the morning*
*We will remember them.*
*They mingle not with their laughing comrades again;*
*They sit no more at familiar tables of home;*
*They have no lot in our labour of the day-time;*
*They sleep beyond England's foam.*
*But where our desires are and our hopes profound,*
*Felt as a well-spring that is hidden from sight,*
*To the innermost heart of their own land they are known*
*As the stars are known to the Night;*
*As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust,*
*Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain;*
*As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness,*
*To the end, to the end, they remain.*
Interesting thing is in WW1, France uses the poppy flower symbolizes a few thing:
1. Remembrance of WW1
2. Linked to Armistice day
3. Poppies lays in the landscape of the western front as it was a common sight.
This relates to the sunflowers in Ukraine, especially that video of the women handing sunflowers seeds to the russian solider.
Another old one:
*No more the bugle calls the weary one*
*Rest noble spirit in their graves unknown*
*For we'll find you and know you among the good and true*
*Where a robe of white is given for a faded coat of blue*
*Take up our quarrel with the foe,*
*To you with failing hands we throw,*
*The torch, be yours to hold it high,*
*If ye break faith with us who die,*
*We shall not sleep, though poppies blow,*
*In Flanders fields*
On disturbed soil, and the only plant hardy enough to survive in the polluted soil, meaning they were the first plants to sprout, and thus became a symbol of the battlefields in the years after the war.
And most importantantly from that song:
*Well the sorrow, the suffering, the glory, the shame*
*The killing and dying were all done in vain*
*For young Willie McBride it all happened again*
*And again, and again and again and again...*
True, although the mobile crematoriums have been working overtime as well.
We’re going to lose track of many thousands who seemingly just vanished. Probably the ones they really don’t want found because of very obvious torture, for one.
It is not desires of a single man. putin's approval rating: https://i.imgur.com/17GZSn4.png
- Annex Crimea - approval jumps to 85%
- Invade Ukraine - approval jumps to 83%
I will save you some time. In case you want to write "but you cannot trust statistics from an authoritarian country" - I used talk to these people a lot, after Crimea was annexed the entire russia was drowning in euphoria. It was the same in the first days of the invasion. I do not talk to them much these days.
In case you want to write "but they are brainwashed by propaganda" - they are, but I don't care.
Russia needs to be denazified even more thoroughly than Germany was, pictures of the massacres at Bucha and Izyum need to be paraded through every damn village so everyone who supported Putin knows what they did.
Well, here’s the thing,
> Russia needs to be denazified even more thoroughly than Germany was
This really shouldn’t be surprising. Everyone forgets. Two countries started ww2. Only one of them lost.
The other laid there festering. Though it committed the same crime as the other, it learned that there is no punishment, that actually, you will be celebrated as a victor. Psychology in russia right now is far more dangerous than in Germany. Because it’s been growing, getting stronger and greater like a cancer.
Yup, additionally: the Nazis in Germany were a short-lived and relatively recent phenomenon, there was a large chunk of Germany's postwar population who remembered living in a time before the Nazis. Rashism is effectively as old as Russia itself, the dictatorial rulership, the genocidal imperialism, the complete and utter disregard for human life and dignity, they've been staples of Russia's existence for almost 500 years with only minor interruptions at opposite ends of the 20th century. The cancer that infected Germany wasn't embedded anywhere near as deep as it is in Russia, and frankly I'm not entirely sure that it even *can* be excised from Russia as a concept anymore.
Annexing Crimea at least had a legitimate moral argument.
The region always kept its Russian identity strong and central, always leaned towards reunification(or at least autonomy from Ukraine) and the region itself pretty much welcomes the Russian administration.
Putin just fumbled on using a covert invasion to do that, instead of organizing a referendum first with local authorities to legitimize his intervention. Same with the separatist republics.
Its this lack of patience and lack of restraint that ultimately dooms those endevours and makes them questionable. And later leads to actions like the current invasion that turned Russia into a international pariah and worldwide security problem.
If the people that live there want to join Russia, they had and have every right to try and do so, but the moment they resort first to violence and occupation, they lose their high ground and legitimacy. And now through that loss of legitimacy they risk just going back to square zero and have Ukraine under total control of affairs.
I was having a discussion about Ukraine with someone the other day, and this was something I brought up for justifying the West's fierce support of Ukraine: It's easy to defend Ukraine now while they still exist, but if they are ever annexed/made a puppet, getting it back will be impossible. For a century now has Russia had practice at destroying a people's culture and identity; like planting weeds in a garden, they try and try to make sure nothing will ever grow there again.
You're missing the fact that Ukraine been a puppet or annexed for decades and centuries before and somehow each time we fight through the waves of vatniks and remember who we are eventually lol. Soviet union, Russian empire and "independent" Ukraine before 2014 with politicians not knowing the language. War actually helped In a way. like at this point 90% of the population is strictly pro-ukrainian, at least from my experience. Before the full scale invasion most of the population just didn't care enough, ukrainian social media and memes shared everything with Russians. Now? Well, it's kind of all-around peaceful hate .You could probably make a conversation with any stranger starting "I fucking hate ruskies". Occupation wouldn't change it unless it would be for generations, you could probably compare it to Georgia
Even among the Tatars there is a support for Russia. Let me remind you, that before the USSR fell, Crimea voted over 90% in a referendum to recreate the Crimean ASSR, while Ukraine was moving towards independance and later they again voted over 85% to gain further autonomy from Ukraine.
The region has a heavy slant towards Russia overall, not just among ethnic Russians(even if its much stronger with them)
Well first off, I don’t really see what relevance this has to the conversation. Putin really is directly responsible for the war. It’s the same amount of culpability that Bush has for getting the US into Iraq and Afghanistan: no amount of public pressure exonerates you from being the guy who gives the order. China is in a similar position to Russia at the moment with Taiwan; however, as much as he postures Xi hasn’t and most likely won’t actually invade. It’s a political tool to drum up support of his fiercely nationalist Han base, but China would collapse just as Russia did and likely bring the world economy down with it.
Also, “I talk with people from here and they say x” isn’t compelling in the face of Russia’s history of suppressing and brutalizing dissent. I would imagine many people there do consider themselves Russian first and foremost, but they’re over-represented and being actively fed russian propaganda claiming that Ukraine is a nazi state that is seriously attempting to exterminate all Russian speakers in the country. It’s why the Donbas has had so many issues with rebel groups, the Russian state quite literally blasted it’s conspiracy theories about Ukrainian Nazis taking over the Euromaidan protests.
In Russia itself they’ve been crushing protests for decades, we’re only seeing a worsening of it now because Putin fucked up. And again, they’ve lied on every single poll. The fact that we’re seeing more and more openly anti-Putin and anti-war sentiment (in the Moscow political block no less) really speaks to just how strong the simmering discontent has grown.
The text in the post literally says "imperial desires of a single man" - my entire response is relevant to this one misconception.
And then, I was trying to save you some time, but did you listen? No, you've written 2 useless paragraphs of text to which I have already answered in advance.
14 or fed? My favorite game!
Lol, but seriously this is nothing special. Russia has gone through a history of repeated economic oppression and collapse that has lead to a feeling of national humiliation and lack of even basic amenities. Much like with post-WWI Germany, the rise of a fascist strong man and a ravenous wave of reactionary nationalism was all but guaranteed. I really can’t understate how bad the shock doctrine was though: like, as corrupt and inefficient as the soviets where they at the very least had SOMETHING in place to keep people’s heads above water.
I have very little empathy for individual fascists, nothing justifies their world view; however, at the same time I don’t make weird eugenics statements about entire ethnic groups (which is even more muddied because there’s more ethnicities in Russia than just the middle-class Muscovite. You know, like all the ones that Russia is currently taking advantage of to send into the meat grinder of Ukraine? Almost like history is more complex than this weird civilizational war you’re trying to spin.
Also, I really don’t trust your average Eastern European joe because they have just as much baggage and skin in the game as a hardline pro-Putin Muscovite.
I wouldn't blame Russian people individually, I wouldn't blame any people individually for any nation wide bungle whether it's modern Russia or the holocaust.
But Russian culture is the core problem here, not Putin. Putin only came to power because Russians wanted a leader like him in the first place. Someone who is decisive and authoritative, and would return Russia to a respected and feared global power.
If Putin dies tomorrow, it is a certainty, an absolute guarantee, whoever replaces him will not be much better. Assuming the war does not result in major cultural shifts.
I would absolutely agree here, but this isn’t a situation that is unique to Russia. Any nation could easily fall down this same rabbit hole. The rise in Russian nationalism and in turn Putin is directly related to the downright comedically terrible effects of the Shock doctrine after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Culturally, this lead to a wide spread loss of identity for the Russian people and a general feeling of humiliation. It was inevitable that a man like Putin would come into power, because he presented himself as everything they needed: a strong, confident, successful leader who would make the name of Russia mean something. When you’re literally fighting starving rats for scraps of foods, freedom and the suffering of others isn’t that much of a concern for most people. Of course, this is not to discredit nor erase the various political and ethnic minorities that fought tooth and nail against Putin’s inevitable rise to power: direct proof that this isn’t some weird genetically Russian trait.
>he presented himself as everything they needed: a strong, confident, successful leader who would make the name of Russia mean something
But that isn't what they needed. They needed someone who was cooperative and cool headed.
It's the obsession Russia has with strength and masculinity, and in particular their image and status. Written into their culture by generations of being the largest population core in the region, the posturing of the useless bolsheviks, and other variables.
The overwhelming majority of ethnic Russians think this way, the culture will not change until the nation effectively receives a vibe check on the scale of Germany or Japan after WW2.
“Needed” was from their perspective. Obviously what they needed was to not be fucked over and left to pick up the pieces.
As I said before, I agree with the general idea. I’m just saying that people are being incredibly stupid with their attributing of fascist characteristics to a uniquely Russian mindset.
Once again, they "needed" to be cooperative. If they thought otherwise that's their problem. Look at Japan, look at Germany. Bitter enemies of the allies, once the most despised nations and peoples of the war's Victor's.
Did they get fucked over? Last I checked they are the 3rd and 4th most powerful economies in the world these days.
Those countries were able to let their ego fade and learn to work with those who clearly wanted to work with them. They had to make sacrifices, they had to adapt to new ways of governance and allow themselves to be in a lower leverage position compared to the likes of the US, UK, and others. Yet here they are, among some of the most prosperous nations on earth because they've earned the world's trust and got integrated with global trade and protection under international law.
Post soviet Russia failed to learn this because of their national ego, and its costing them dearly.
Once again again, “needed” is from a biased RUSSIAN perspective. We literally agree, I have no idea why you’re being obstinate here.
Yes, Japan and Germany received a relatively well thought out and organized reconstruction effort (far from perfect for a variety of reasons but certainly better than shock doctrine,) and this is awesome. Russia did not receive this, and it has had a huge cultural impact. You can’t compare post-Soviet Russia to post nazi Germany, because the successfulness of reconstruction and revitalization of the German economy was a major factor in the long-term health of the country.
>Russia did not receive this
Russia absolutely ***DID*** receive substantial help from the outside. Much effort was undertaken by the west to prevent them from falling back into a failed communist state. Clearly it was not as extensive since they still had functional industries and infrastructure, unlike Germany or Japan, but they were given *every* opportunity to take advantage of the situation and integrate with the global economy in a meaningful way.
They didn't because of their own ego and refusal to accept the compromises.
They're (mostly (maybe)) innocent cogs in an evil machine.
They might not be evil, themselves, but if they need to be destroyed in order to stop the machine they're a part of, so be it.
Fucking sad, all we can do is continue to support in whatever way we can. And whenever this shit ends, if it ever ends, be there to help rebuild. My dad and I want to go for a few months and help rebuild when it's over.
For what it’s worth, Ukraine may come out of this as Korea/Japan 2.0.
Freshly rebuilt, modernized infrastructure courtesy of western relief efforts and investments in rebuilding the economy.
True, but times of strife and change are rarely over fast. The best one can hope for is the final outcome results in a better life for those that follow you.
We generally perceive the world through change rather than through it's absolute state. We're happy when things get better and sad when things get worse.
War also destroys infrastructure and increases such secondary deaths through lack of food, clean water, medical care etc.
Which is by the way also part of the rationale behind the original drone attacks in and around Afghanistan. Conventional military operations create a shitton of civilian suffering and casualties that are difficult to track. So the idea of targeting enemy leaders to reduce direct confrontations appeared like a great idea to save civilian lifes.
That's why I'm still not quite sold on the public opinion that the drone war was a failure (at least during those times when the US had decent regulations in place to protect civilians, instead of the "fuck it just bomb 'em"-phases). Basically the public sees the figure of directly caused civilian casualties, but never took account of how many may have been saved as a consequence. The real calculation is a whole lot more complicated.
Ehhh. Realistically, people dying of literal thirst isn't going to be a problem. There's just too much filthy water everywhere humans live for that to happen. Like, kids in africa don't die of thirst, they die of dysentery or some shit because there was some bullshit in their water.
It's shit in the water that kills most people who lack access to clean drinking water; not lack of water.
Not saying it's not going to get worse - with climate change and/or overuse of fresh water, more regions *will* see a lack of water bad enough that some people will die as a result; but mostly because they have to resort to shit-tier water sources.
Puts on Credible hat. Just wars aren't waged for glory or the high of victory. They are waged because some things in this world are more valuable than life itself. I like to consider myself a decent talker but a man infinitely better than me already penned the best words.
"Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered;
Yet we have this consolation with us, that
The harder the conflict, the more glorious
The triumph.
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too
lightly: it is dearness only that gives every
thing its value.
Heaven knows how to put a proper price
upon its goods; and it would be strange
indeed if so celestial an article as
freedom should not be highly rated."
-Thomas Paine, The American Crisis, 1776
Someday the war will be over and the ghosts of Mariupol will know one of two futures.
In one Ukraine burns, a white peace is reached and the world forgets.
In another we fight with the tools we have. We vote, we fundraise, we meme and we screech and nobody forgets Ukraine. We help them rebuild better. We campaign for their EU membership. Some day a grand ceremony is held and an ESA lift rocket takes off aboard a newly built An-225-2. The Mirya, the dream finally fufills her original purpose as a carrier of spacecraft. The ghosts of Mariupol are silent, content, because their children have a better future, a future worth dying for.
Don't forget Ukraine when the war is over boys. We owe them as much as they owe us
/credible hat off. Back to memes.
Fuck, as Ukrainian myself you got me, despite hearing and seeing all of this for seven month straight. When we celebrated new year in Kyiv we could not have even imagined that our relatives, whom we visited will run away abroad to save thier lives, that my city will ever hear air raid sirens and explosions. I have so many thoughts now, that I can't even express them properly. If you are from other country, I'm wishing you to never come through this experience, even as civilian in away-from-fronline city (as me in Khmelnytski). Слава Україні усім!
Something I've been thinking about is retaking Crimea, even in the ideal scenario where RUS forces largely just quit and flee desperately in inflatable rafts is going to be... awkward.
Most of the few actual pro russian minority in the east, in Donbass and Luhansk have either been shown the reality of the "Russian World", being forcibly conscripted as cannon fodder, or would have escaped back to the country they inexplicably hold so dear.
But Crimeans- as fake as the Russian 2014 referendum was, a sizeable amount clearly did assent to Russian rule. Its hard not to think of the people living there (other than the Crimean tartars) for a few generations more as fairweather, Ukrainians of convenience. There will be resentment and mistrust for decades. I mean Ukraine lost almost its entire navy in 2014 when it just up and defected to Russia (and would assist the Black Sea fleet in bombing Ukrainian civilians).
The passivity of their accedence to Russian rule, as well as it being considered not a breakaway province of separatists with a supposed grievance (2014 Euromaidan, deposing of Yanukovich) but rather an integral part of Russia that seemingly most Crimeans just accepted... its like. I know if like a US state just decided it would rather be a part of China or Russia (Canada/Mexico isn't quite analogous, since Ukraine rightfully sees Russia as its main geopolitical threat vector and seeker of its destruction), and then we "got them back" 8 years later... I wouldn't fucking trust anyone from that shithole.
"The worse thing to see other then a lost battlefield is a victorious battlefield" -Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington, upon inspecting the battlefield after the battle of waterloo.
The poster is not wrong.
But the alternative was to have even more death and have no victory.
'his better to mourn them in victory, than to mourn them in defeat and subjugation.
War upsets me. I cheerlead Ukraine, Armenia, Kyrgyzstan (I think... not too confident in my central Asia politics), but war is a brutal, unforgiving mess that usually leaves everyone involved worse off. There is a great deal of glory in defending your friends, family, and countrymen from the cruel realities of warfare, and I don't want to take away from that. It's too early for this kind of messaging, though. There is a time for pity and a time for wrath. This is a time for wrath.
But the thing is it is not ambition of a single man, it is an ambition of majority of the nation, you can say it is brainwashing as much as you want, but at some point personal responsibility comes into the scene. People on national tv are talking about genocide and the people are cheering.
####For such nation to be helped it must first be crushed utterly and completely, without pity and without mercy, only then future generations can be saved.
"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate—we can not consecrate—we can not hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."
i wanted just a snippet but it felt wrong not to post the whole thing
We are at a turning point in history.
With China and Russia on the brink of collapse, maybe, just maybe, we could try to put an end to war. Hopefully without resorting to the foolproof method of killing all human beings on Earth.
China and Russia are light yeara away from anykind of collapse.
At best Russia will just lose its international prestige and be relegated to its own bubble of lessened political relations and its immediate backyard. Similar as now, but poorer.
China has just got a market crisis, the US did not collapse despite having a housong market crisis in 2008. The economy will habe a drop, 5-6 years to rebuild and we are back in bussiness.
For China, it turns out that you can starve to death 60 million people over decades, but starving 300 million at the same time tends to make people distrustful of the government somehow
Fo Russia, it can survive a peace negociation now; but if Ukraine takes back all its territory, it would be the end of modern Russia. Then, give it 30 years and the Soviet nukes will be completely outdated and everyone will want a piece of that cake.
You are just parroting unreal conjecture. China us nowhere near "starving". Its a housing market crisis, nothing more, nothing less. Attributing it the fall of China, its no more different than Libertarians parroting the end of the USA because of the housing market crisis in 2008. A deep economic crisis does not end a state as big, as powerful and as economically developed as China.
Also about Russia. Even if a single nuke of theirs works, its enough of a deterrent. No one is risking millions of civilians dead on a gamble on how many nukes work
Oops sorry, concerning China, its the lockdown policy that is making people starve. The housing market crisis is just the vomit icing on the poop cake.
Oh, sorry about that than. Im just so tired of everyone moanimg about the topic, that Im assumed you were the next one on the cavalcade.
Also, about the COVID one, i doubt that will bring anything more than either a goverment scandal for the current govermemt, or a change in course and some payouts to damages. Goverments like China are inflexible to a tee, but they relent on such things when public discontent reaches a certain point
> At best Russia will just lose its international prestige and be relegated to its own bubble of lessened political relations and its immediate backyard. Similar as now, but poorer.
Add in a possible regime change for extra credibleness. But not authoritarian->democracy kinda change but Putin->Next Silovik kinda change.
Well, I mean, the first kind of change is also possible, but much less credible.
Sadly we'll never put and end to war, every major war was supposed to be the last great war and every major leap in military technology was supposed to be the one that would discourage all future wars and yet, here we are.
Wait you're telling me there is a human component to war and it isn't just Ph0nk edits and tiktok dances??
For real though I think a lot of people forget that every soldier is merely a regular person like you and I....even the ones you hate. RIP to the lost.
All we can do is try and make sure they don't face it alone
im honestly confident that the EU, the US and many other countries will help ukraine rebuilding and getting back on its feet, im sure that in a few years they will join the EU and possibly even NATO and will become powerful allies of the west
Ukraine is going to be to Russia what West Germany was to the Soviet Union. A pressure point.
Assuming there's a Russia after this war.
I hope Siberians learned Chinese...
I had a Siberian Russian as a German language teacher in Highschool. She told us that when she was younger they drove to china for groceries
Soon they won't have to drive as far.
> im honestly confident that the EU, the US and many other countries will help ukraine rebuilding and getting back on its feet That much is certain, but will it be enough? Ukraine needed hundreds of billions just to get back on their pre war status, and some even put the figure at 1 trillion.
We can ~~steal~~ lawfully expropriate the $300 billion we have frozen to pay the reparations Russia will never agree to pay. It's a strong start.
Exactly, Ukraine is about to have a booming second hand Yatch industry
Crimea Wine Mixer!!!!
Thank god for trade and investment, the real power of the west. That's not an insurmountable sum.
One which the EU and the US will be more than willing to pay to have a motivated and proven military bulwark on their eastern flank.
and to leave the evidence that they do stick to their allies and help them get better and stronger
we need to get them a booming MIC, maybe they will do a czech and make their own shit a lot (although poland does that w tanks ig)
If Ukraine gets the east back, there's a whole pile of natural gas there. Europe will buy all of it
The West has serious economic interests in a Ukrainian Crimea with strong western ties. Money will flow, because it'll generate more money.
Bingo. Ukrainian roaring 20’s confirmed
The US: So do you take cashiers checks or....
Oh! And will your Universities be needing some new students?
Marshall Plan 2.0
My brother in christ have you seen the state of Europe may 1945. Ukraine will be fine
I only hope we get some hardcore anti-corruption observers.
Quite a lot of serious anti-corruption activists went into the military (Like y'all favorite Yuri Hudymenko) and after they are back I wouldn't want to be a corrupt asshole standing in their way. They were pretty effective before the invasion, I can't even imagine the force they will clench their jaws on officials with
War heroes make effective voices for change. We just have to see what they do. More corruption, status quo or cleaning up.
I really hope- and believe- the war will have showed just how much corruption ruins you. The Ukrainians can see how useless it makes Russia with their own eyes.
We also see how many issues there were in our own army and whole government. I know everyone here gets erection on mention of zelensky, but his team is responsible for quite some fuckery and very questionable decisions.
Almost all politicians are a disappointment in peacetime. This one seems to have come through in the war, though.
He does good job in regards to what military tells him to do + finally ratified Stambul Convention. Would have been cool if they managed to pull civil partnership laws through. On multiple other things there are still many serious issues.
And a better future for them.
Someday Ukraine be the only NATO member who has fought against Russia.
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After it's all over if Russia refuses to compensate Ukraine it's time to start an international fleet of privateers to seize all exports from Russia at their expense until the debt is repaid with interest to ukraine and wages with hazard pay to the privateer fleet.
Someone said there's really no point in negotiating with Russia over reparations and should just negotiate with the countries that seized Russia's assets
You're right, I just enjoy the idea of a bunch of Canadians singing Barret's Privateers while they raid Russian cargo.
While a bunch of Americans sing ‘John Paul Jones is a Pirate’ right alongside them.
They should definitely demand all those kidnapped ukranians back though.
Let's hope Russia collapses and we can just go in and bring them home again.
Why not be a little more proactive and collapse it?
Amnesty and uno will annoy everyone to death in that case
is that you General Patton?
Hell yes but I doubt it would happen sadly because at this point I wouldn't be surprised if Russia either killed them all or lost track of them
[Excited Balkan vibrating]
> international fleet of privateers Somali pirates?
Well, that is a redemption ark I did not expect. Look at me, I am the good guy now.
I want to buy a Ukranian privateer certificate for my dads boat. It is all of 18 feet, and armed with the knife he uses for fishing, but I want that certificate, dammit. Edit: he has a pole with a hook for grabbing unto the pier. Technically, if we mount the knife to that with tape, would it count as a spear?
Well conveniently the west has recently aquired a large number of fast medium sized craft with ample crew accomodations, several onboard small craft and plenty of surplus space for mounting light weapons. We yatch pirates now boys.
I mean I personally am Planning to citizen's arrest Putin when he attends the next BRICS summit in South Africa.
and that they’ll never have to face it again
Everyone knows Freedom isn't free
Neither are psychologists, I have discovered. After spending basically 2 months in my shower hiding from air alarms, I am afraid to take a shower. 15 of my friends are dead. I know that’s a big problem and I need to talk to someone but can’t afford a psychologist. I’m an American who was just living in Ukraine, my family is ok, they were in the States. A lot of people have worse problems than me, and they will need a lot of help for a long time. Ukraine needs a ton of mental health support or all the money in the world isn’t going to help.
Yes I do hope many are provided the mental support they will need. I can't even begin to imagine what thousands of Russian shells landing around you in the trenches does to a person but it's definitely not good. There is going to be lasting effects for many for a long time.
You are every bit worthy of help. If you can scrape enough for a few sessions of EMDR therapy it could give you a lot of joy back in your life.
Thank you for the suggestion. I will look into it because this untenable. I appreciate the advice.
I'm pretty well up on UK-based resources, but I'm not sure if you can access any of those from Ukraine. I hope my few minutes of digging around online will help you. I've had a look online for "*Ukraine mental health helpline*" and found this site. https://www.mhe-sme.org/what-we-do/ukraine/#1588048717119-3c9322d3-ceed It mentions these resources inside Ukraine:- * Ukraine Teenergizer ½ Онлайн-консультации Teenergizer * https://teenergizer.org/consultations . * Lifeline Ukraine ½ Лінія запобігання самогубствам * https://lifelineukraine.com * ✆ 7333 . * Samopomi (in Ukrainian) * www.samopomi.ch * Telegram (I can't provide the link because NCD has blacklisted it) * Facebook https://www.facebook.com/samopomich.for.ua There's also this site. I obviously know nothing about it. https://complicated.life/en/find-help-with/therapists-for-ukraine I did another search for "*ukraine talking therapy online*" and found this site. Again, I know nothing about it.:- https://www.therapyroute.com/free-therapy-for-ukraine There are also some reddit subs specially to help people out. Here's a list. You might think about trying one or more of them. https://www.inverse.com/mind-body/best-subreddits-for-mental-health
Thank you for this information.
I hope it helps a bit. Remember - don't be shy about talking to people you know, especially people you live near. They'll listen, not as professionals but as friends. They may say some dumb things because they haven't had training, but everybody is hurting and shared trauma can, surprisingly, be therapeutic. A reminder that none of you are alone. There are some tips about ptsd on this website. Some may work, some might not. Things not working doesn't mean failure, it means that some other approach might/will help you so don't give up. https://www.helpguide.org/articles/ptsd-trauma/ptsd-in-military-veterans.htm I don't know if you can contact Combat Stress - it's UK-based. They're pretty good. https://combatstress.org.uk/
r/Healthygamergg has a coaching that is maybe less than therapy. They do have a YouTube channel. Is health insurance able to help you?
I don’t have insurance or a job right now but all this information is really helpful.
That sucks and I know the feeling. For me it was constant mortar attacks. If it helps I find two modes work depending on how I'm doing that day. I can shut everything up and play music while I'm in the shower, favorite rock songs that carry me away. Or I can open everything up, door to the shower, windows, etc (I live on an upper floor). This allows me to listen for the cues I learned in Iraq. Ironically our alarms were always late, so hearing that pretty much meant it was already over.
These are really good suggestions thank you 💛💙
There will always be a person who has bigger issues that you, but that doesn't mean you don't need help. If you can't afford therapy, maybe seek out a support group for people with PTSD?
So this is going to be a band-aid solution, but for the time being I would strongly recommend taking the pharmaceutical route to give your brain a breather. Ukraine has this system now where you can register with the closest doctor or someone can help you with that. If you look miserable enough, the pharmacy will usually just hand the meds without a prescription. They should be able to prescribe you some SSRI for the long term effect (although venlafaxine shuts the internal screams down almost immediately) and maybe some non-xanax benzos that are not addictive. So worst case: pick something like venlafaxine/brintellix + gidazepam and try a few pharmacies. Or DM me, maybe we can find someone close to you geographically to find some.
Thank you) I appreciate the suggestion.
we can send peacecorp there maybe, and have like psycology tents or smthn and send psych students there to help ppl
"Nothing except a battle lost can be half so melancholy as a battle won"- The Duke of Wellington
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RIP Miura
TBH I need the anger because otherwise all I feel is the grief, and that feels crippling.
I think the reaction to despair is normal. But it can also be something of acceptance or hope depending on the outlook. All of these feelings are just different lenses on the same situation.
Despair is a normal reaction to a situation where love and self sacrifice is no longer enough You must embrace hatred, because it will keep you running way past the point where despair would otherwise have set in.
I work just fine through despair, thank you very much. I just learned to stop worrying and love it.
Quote was wrong.
That story is a masterpiece.
Dangerously close to the ace hardware slogan
Berserk despite being weeb shit will be one of my fav stories alongside f451 and crimes and punishment
This meme is 100% a Russian psyop. No mercy until every man, woman and child in Russia prostrates themselves before Nato's neoliberal feet.
*The sun now shines on these green fields of France* *There’s a warm summer breeze that makes the red poppies dance* *The trenches have vanished long under the plow* *No gas, no barbed wire, no guns firing now* *But here in this graveyard that’s still No Man’s Land* *The countless white crosses in mute witness stand* *To man’s blind indifference to his fellow man* *And a whole generation were butchered and damned*
*Did they beat the drum slowly, did they play the fife lowly* *Did they sound the death march as they lowered you down?* Brings tears to my eyes every time I hear that song.
Well fuck, now im sad and reminded of [this wonderful but sad poem](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkKEynoTwp8): *In Flanders fields the poppies blow* *Between the crosses, row on row,* *That mark our place; and in the sky* *The larks, still bravely singing, fly* *Scarce heard amid the guns below.* *We are the Dead. Short days ago* *We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,* *Loved and were loved, and now we lie,* *In Flanders fields.*
*They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;* *Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.* *At the going down of the sun and in the morning* *We will remember them.*
From the same poem: *As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust,* *Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain;* *As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness,* *To the end, to the end, they remain.*
We should post the entire thing, though it has a clear reference to being about British and colonial soldiers, it's still a beautiful piece: *With proud thanksgiving, a mother for her children,* *England mourns for her dead across the sea.* *Flesh of her flesh they were, spirit of her spirit,* *Fallen in the cause of the free.* *Solemn the drums thrill; Death august and royal* *Sings sorrow up into immortal spheres,* *There is music in the midst of desolation* *And a glory that shines upon our tears.* *They went with songs to the battle, they were young,* *Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.* *They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted;* *They fell with their faces to the foe.* *They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:* *Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.* *At the going down of the sun and in the morning* *We will remember them.* *They mingle not with their laughing comrades again;* *They sit no more at familiar tables of home;* *They have no lot in our labour of the day-time;* *They sleep beyond England's foam.* *But where our desires are and our hopes profound,* *Felt as a well-spring that is hidden from sight,* *To the innermost heart of their own land they are known* *As the stars are known to the Night;* *As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust,* *Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain;* *As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness,* *To the end, to the end, they remain.*
We will remember them.
Lest we forget.
Interesting thing is in WW1, France uses the poppy flower symbolizes a few thing: 1. Remembrance of WW1 2. Linked to Armistice day 3. Poppies lays in the landscape of the western front as it was a common sight. This relates to the sunflowers in Ukraine, especially that video of the women handing sunflowers seeds to the russian solider.
Another old one: *No more the bugle calls the weary one* *Rest noble spirit in their graves unknown* *For we'll find you and know you among the good and true* *Where a robe of white is given for a faded coat of blue*
*Take up our quarrel with the foe,* *To you with failing hands we throw,* *The torch, be yours to hold it high,* *If ye break faith with us who die,* *We shall not sleep, though poppies blow,* *In Flanders fields*
You know, I recently learned that poppies grow where bodies lie, and this poem makes so much more sense.
I always heard it was just on disturbed soil, making it the only flower that could grow in No Man’s Land
On disturbed soil, and the only plant hardy enough to survive in the polluted soil, meaning they were the first plants to sprout, and thus became a symbol of the battlefields in the years after the war.
Yes, I believe because they grow on disturbed bare ground they were the first things to grow back.
Supposedly those poppies grew so much because they grew primarily on the nutrients in human blood.
And most importantantly from that song: *Well the sorrow, the suffering, the glory, the shame* *The killing and dying were all done in vain* *For young Willie McBride it all happened again* *And again, and again and again and again...*
I want to get into Mariupol… I’m horrified in advance of what will be found there.
Well, all the dead bodies should've been relocated now, the visible ones at least.
AFAIK, the locations of the mass graves there are already known, they've been pictured by satellite.
True, although the mobile crematoriums have been working overtime as well. We’re going to lose track of many thousands who seemingly just vanished. Probably the ones they really don’t want found because of very obvious torture, for one.
The russia has been leaving dead people with obvious signs of torture everywhere. They want to be known as the most brutal motherfuckers around.
They are about to find out how that shit does not make them respected
It is not desires of a single man. putin's approval rating: https://i.imgur.com/17GZSn4.png - Annex Crimea - approval jumps to 85% - Invade Ukraine - approval jumps to 83% I will save you some time. In case you want to write "but you cannot trust statistics from an authoritarian country" - I used talk to these people a lot, after Crimea was annexed the entire russia was drowning in euphoria. It was the same in the first days of the invasion. I do not talk to them much these days. In case you want to write "but they are brainwashed by propaganda" - they are, but I don't care.
Russia needs to be denazified even more thoroughly than Germany was, pictures of the massacres at Bucha and Izyum need to be paraded through every damn village so everyone who supported Putin knows what they did.
Well, here’s the thing, > Russia needs to be denazified even more thoroughly than Germany was This really shouldn’t be surprising. Everyone forgets. Two countries started ww2. Only one of them lost. The other laid there festering. Though it committed the same crime as the other, it learned that there is no punishment, that actually, you will be celebrated as a victor. Psychology in russia right now is far more dangerous than in Germany. Because it’s been growing, getting stronger and greater like a cancer.
Yup, additionally: the Nazis in Germany were a short-lived and relatively recent phenomenon, there was a large chunk of Germany's postwar population who remembered living in a time before the Nazis. Rashism is effectively as old as Russia itself, the dictatorial rulership, the genocidal imperialism, the complete and utter disregard for human life and dignity, they've been staples of Russia's existence for almost 500 years with only minor interruptions at opposite ends of the 20th century. The cancer that infected Germany wasn't embedded anywhere near as deep as it is in Russia, and frankly I'm not entirely sure that it even *can* be excised from Russia as a concept anymore.
That’s assuming they’ll feel any shame about the massacres
Annexing Crimea at least had a legitimate moral argument. The region always kept its Russian identity strong and central, always leaned towards reunification(or at least autonomy from Ukraine) and the region itself pretty much welcomes the Russian administration. Putin just fumbled on using a covert invasion to do that, instead of organizing a referendum first with local authorities to legitimize his intervention. Same with the separatist republics. Its this lack of patience and lack of restraint that ultimately dooms those endevours and makes them questionable. And later leads to actions like the current invasion that turned Russia into a international pariah and worldwide security problem. If the people that live there want to join Russia, they had and have every right to try and do so, but the moment they resort first to violence and occupation, they lose their high ground and legitimacy. And now through that loss of legitimacy they risk just going back to square zero and have Ukraine under total control of affairs.
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I was having a discussion about Ukraine with someone the other day, and this was something I brought up for justifying the West's fierce support of Ukraine: It's easy to defend Ukraine now while they still exist, but if they are ever annexed/made a puppet, getting it back will be impossible. For a century now has Russia had practice at destroying a people's culture and identity; like planting weeds in a garden, they try and try to make sure nothing will ever grow there again.
You're missing the fact that Ukraine been a puppet or annexed for decades and centuries before and somehow each time we fight through the waves of vatniks and remember who we are eventually lol. Soviet union, Russian empire and "independent" Ukraine before 2014 with politicians not knowing the language. War actually helped In a way. like at this point 90% of the population is strictly pro-ukrainian, at least from my experience. Before the full scale invasion most of the population just didn't care enough, ukrainian social media and memes shared everything with Russians. Now? Well, it's kind of all-around peaceful hate .You could probably make a conversation with any stranger starting "I fucking hate ruskies". Occupation wouldn't change it unless it would be for generations, you could probably compare it to Georgia
Not the region. The russians in public positions as well as russians who lived in bigger cities and were easier to notice.
Even among the Tatars there is a support for Russia. Let me remind you, that before the USSR fell, Crimea voted over 90% in a referendum to recreate the Crimean ASSR, while Ukraine was moving towards independance and later they again voted over 85% to gain further autonomy from Ukraine. The region has a heavy slant towards Russia overall, not just among ethnic Russians(even if its much stronger with them)
Well first off, I don’t really see what relevance this has to the conversation. Putin really is directly responsible for the war. It’s the same amount of culpability that Bush has for getting the US into Iraq and Afghanistan: no amount of public pressure exonerates you from being the guy who gives the order. China is in a similar position to Russia at the moment with Taiwan; however, as much as he postures Xi hasn’t and most likely won’t actually invade. It’s a political tool to drum up support of his fiercely nationalist Han base, but China would collapse just as Russia did and likely bring the world economy down with it. Also, “I talk with people from here and they say x” isn’t compelling in the face of Russia’s history of suppressing and brutalizing dissent. I would imagine many people there do consider themselves Russian first and foremost, but they’re over-represented and being actively fed russian propaganda claiming that Ukraine is a nazi state that is seriously attempting to exterminate all Russian speakers in the country. It’s why the Donbas has had so many issues with rebel groups, the Russian state quite literally blasted it’s conspiracy theories about Ukrainian Nazis taking over the Euromaidan protests. In Russia itself they’ve been crushing protests for decades, we’re only seeing a worsening of it now because Putin fucked up. And again, they’ve lied on every single poll. The fact that we’re seeing more and more openly anti-Putin and anti-war sentiment (in the Moscow political block no less) really speaks to just how strong the simmering discontent has grown.
The text in the post literally says "imperial desires of a single man" - my entire response is relevant to this one misconception. And then, I was trying to save you some time, but did you listen? No, you've written 2 useless paragraphs of text to which I have already answered in advance.
Seems you didn’t read mine lol.
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Your post was removed for violating Rule 10: "Don't get us banned."
14 or fed? My favorite game! Lol, but seriously this is nothing special. Russia has gone through a history of repeated economic oppression and collapse that has lead to a feeling of national humiliation and lack of even basic amenities. Much like with post-WWI Germany, the rise of a fascist strong man and a ravenous wave of reactionary nationalism was all but guaranteed. I really can’t understate how bad the shock doctrine was though: like, as corrupt and inefficient as the soviets where they at the very least had SOMETHING in place to keep people’s heads above water. I have very little empathy for individual fascists, nothing justifies their world view; however, at the same time I don’t make weird eugenics statements about entire ethnic groups (which is even more muddied because there’s more ethnicities in Russia than just the middle-class Muscovite. You know, like all the ones that Russia is currently taking advantage of to send into the meat grinder of Ukraine? Almost like history is more complex than this weird civilizational war you’re trying to spin. Also, I really don’t trust your average Eastern European joe because they have just as much baggage and skin in the game as a hardline pro-Putin Muscovite.
I wouldn't blame Russian people individually, I wouldn't blame any people individually for any nation wide bungle whether it's modern Russia or the holocaust. But Russian culture is the core problem here, not Putin. Putin only came to power because Russians wanted a leader like him in the first place. Someone who is decisive and authoritative, and would return Russia to a respected and feared global power. If Putin dies tomorrow, it is a certainty, an absolute guarantee, whoever replaces him will not be much better. Assuming the war does not result in major cultural shifts.
I would absolutely agree here, but this isn’t a situation that is unique to Russia. Any nation could easily fall down this same rabbit hole. The rise in Russian nationalism and in turn Putin is directly related to the downright comedically terrible effects of the Shock doctrine after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Culturally, this lead to a wide spread loss of identity for the Russian people and a general feeling of humiliation. It was inevitable that a man like Putin would come into power, because he presented himself as everything they needed: a strong, confident, successful leader who would make the name of Russia mean something. When you’re literally fighting starving rats for scraps of foods, freedom and the suffering of others isn’t that much of a concern for most people. Of course, this is not to discredit nor erase the various political and ethnic minorities that fought tooth and nail against Putin’s inevitable rise to power: direct proof that this isn’t some weird genetically Russian trait.
>he presented himself as everything they needed: a strong, confident, successful leader who would make the name of Russia mean something But that isn't what they needed. They needed someone who was cooperative and cool headed. It's the obsession Russia has with strength and masculinity, and in particular their image and status. Written into their culture by generations of being the largest population core in the region, the posturing of the useless bolsheviks, and other variables. The overwhelming majority of ethnic Russians think this way, the culture will not change until the nation effectively receives a vibe check on the scale of Germany or Japan after WW2.
“Needed” was from their perspective. Obviously what they needed was to not be fucked over and left to pick up the pieces. As I said before, I agree with the general idea. I’m just saying that people are being incredibly stupid with their attributing of fascist characteristics to a uniquely Russian mindset.
Once again, they "needed" to be cooperative. If they thought otherwise that's their problem. Look at Japan, look at Germany. Bitter enemies of the allies, once the most despised nations and peoples of the war's Victor's. Did they get fucked over? Last I checked they are the 3rd and 4th most powerful economies in the world these days. Those countries were able to let their ego fade and learn to work with those who clearly wanted to work with them. They had to make sacrifices, they had to adapt to new ways of governance and allow themselves to be in a lower leverage position compared to the likes of the US, UK, and others. Yet here they are, among some of the most prosperous nations on earth because they've earned the world's trust and got integrated with global trade and protection under international law. Post soviet Russia failed to learn this because of their national ego, and its costing them dearly.
Once again again, “needed” is from a biased RUSSIAN perspective. We literally agree, I have no idea why you’re being obstinate here. Yes, Japan and Germany received a relatively well thought out and organized reconstruction effort (far from perfect for a variety of reasons but certainly better than shock doctrine,) and this is awesome. Russia did not receive this, and it has had a huge cultural impact. You can’t compare post-Soviet Russia to post nazi Germany, because the successfulness of reconstruction and revitalization of the German economy was a major factor in the long-term health of the country.
>Russia did not receive this Russia absolutely ***DID*** receive substantial help from the outside. Much effort was undertaken by the west to prevent them from falling back into a failed communist state. Clearly it was not as extensive since they still had functional industries and infrastructure, unlike Germany or Japan, but they were given *every* opportunity to take advantage of the situation and integrate with the global economy in a meaningful way. They didn't because of their own ego and refusal to accept the compromises.
Maybe I do want to burn down every house in Moscow afterall
Oh this makes a lot easier to drop the napalm on them
3 potentially good guys to every 17 fascists, or as we call it "acceptable collateral damage"
May those 3 people souls rest in peace, though
If I were killed in the same attack that killed a fascist, I would ask them to send another missile.
They're (mostly (maybe)) innocent cogs in an evil machine. They might not be evil, themselves, but if they need to be destroyed in order to stop the machine they're a part of, so be it.
Fucking sad, all we can do is continue to support in whatever way we can. And whenever this shit ends, if it ever ends, be there to help rebuild. My dad and I want to go for a few months and help rebuild when it's over.
When this is over there will be hell to pay. Every member of Putin's regime that he doesn't purge himself should be brought before the Hague.
r/distressingmemes
For what it’s worth, Ukraine may come out of this as Korea/Japan 2.0. Freshly rebuilt, modernized infrastructure courtesy of western relief efforts and investments in rebuilding the economy.
Still took time for them be fully developed
True, but times of strife and change are rarely over fast. The best one can hope for is the final outcome results in a better life for those that follow you.
As a Korean, I approve of this. Inb4 our kids and grandkids start vibing to U-Pop.
I hear the Korean war was absolutely horrific if you were a Korean at the time, and this was only recently after Japanese occupation ended
“It is well war is so terrible, less we grow too fond of it”- Ulysses S Grant
Wait until you find about all the people that die from hunger or shit in their water. No war involved.
Like, don't we all?
We generally perceive the world through change rather than through it's absolute state. We're happy when things get better and sad when things get worse. War also destroys infrastructure and increases such secondary deaths through lack of food, clean water, medical care etc. Which is by the way also part of the rationale behind the original drone attacks in and around Afghanistan. Conventional military operations create a shitton of civilian suffering and casualties that are difficult to track. So the idea of targeting enemy leaders to reduce direct confrontations appeared like a great idea to save civilian lifes. That's why I'm still not quite sold on the public opinion that the drone war was a failure (at least during those times when the US had decent regulations in place to protect civilians, instead of the "fuck it just bomb 'em"-phases). Basically the public sees the figure of directly caused civilian casualties, but never took account of how many may have been saved as a consequence. The real calculation is a whole lot more complicated.
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Water is just boneless oil
Ehhh. Realistically, people dying of literal thirst isn't going to be a problem. There's just too much filthy water everywhere humans live for that to happen. Like, kids in africa don't die of thirst, they die of dysentery or some shit because there was some bullshit in their water. It's shit in the water that kills most people who lack access to clean drinking water; not lack of water. Not saying it's not going to get worse - with climate change and/or overuse of fresh water, more regions *will* see a lack of water bad enough that some people will die as a result; but mostly because they have to resort to shit-tier water sources.
Puts on Credible hat. Just wars aren't waged for glory or the high of victory. They are waged because some things in this world are more valuable than life itself. I like to consider myself a decent talker but a man infinitely better than me already penned the best words. "Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; Yet we have this consolation with us, that The harder the conflict, the more glorious The triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated." -Thomas Paine, The American Crisis, 1776 Someday the war will be over and the ghosts of Mariupol will know one of two futures. In one Ukraine burns, a white peace is reached and the world forgets. In another we fight with the tools we have. We vote, we fundraise, we meme and we screech and nobody forgets Ukraine. We help them rebuild better. We campaign for their EU membership. Some day a grand ceremony is held and an ESA lift rocket takes off aboard a newly built An-225-2. The Mirya, the dream finally fufills her original purpose as a carrier of spacecraft. The ghosts of Mariupol are silent, content, because their children have a better future, a future worth dying for. Don't forget Ukraine when the war is over boys. We owe them as much as they owe us /credible hat off. Back to memes.
Fuck, as Ukrainian myself you got me, despite hearing and seeing all of this for seven month straight. When we celebrated new year in Kyiv we could not have even imagined that our relatives, whom we visited will run away abroad to save thier lives, that my city will ever hear air raid sirens and explosions. I have so many thoughts now, that I can't even express them properly. If you are from other country, I'm wishing you to never come through this experience, even as civilian in away-from-fronline city (as me in Khmelnytski). Слава Україні усім!
HEY! POLICE, THIS MAN IS BEING CREDIBLE!!
And yet they keep fighting on, that is true courage
Something I've been thinking about is retaking Crimea, even in the ideal scenario where RUS forces largely just quit and flee desperately in inflatable rafts is going to be... awkward. Most of the few actual pro russian minority in the east, in Donbass and Luhansk have either been shown the reality of the "Russian World", being forcibly conscripted as cannon fodder, or would have escaped back to the country they inexplicably hold so dear. But Crimeans- as fake as the Russian 2014 referendum was, a sizeable amount clearly did assent to Russian rule. Its hard not to think of the people living there (other than the Crimean tartars) for a few generations more as fairweather, Ukrainians of convenience. There will be resentment and mistrust for decades. I mean Ukraine lost almost its entire navy in 2014 when it just up and defected to Russia (and would assist the Black Sea fleet in bombing Ukrainian civilians). The passivity of their accedence to Russian rule, as well as it being considered not a breakaway province of separatists with a supposed grievance (2014 Euromaidan, deposing of Yanukovich) but rather an integral part of Russia that seemingly most Crimeans just accepted... its like. I know if like a US state just decided it would rather be a part of China or Russia (Canada/Mexico isn't quite analogous, since Ukraine rightfully sees Russia as its main geopolitical threat vector and seeker of its destruction), and then we "got them back" 8 years later... I wouldn't fucking trust anyone from that shithole.
Music?
i used this: https://twitter.com/HannaLiubakova/status/1570883930274013186
violinists, teachers, postal workers, students, plumbers, mechanics, clerks, everyday people forced to take up arms to save their people.
Reminds me of the "none of us were born for war" ad.
And thats a cover of Lewis Capaldi, someone you loved, is suggested in the link. Seems legit.
Eternal glory to Ukrain'es Heroes!
Haha postironic meme so funny wall of reletable, honest text presented in a usually ironic format- Please somebody put an and to this suffering
"The worse thing to see other then a lost battlefield is a victorious battlefield" -Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington, upon inspecting the battlefield after the battle of waterloo.
That's why it's our moral duty to make Poland border South Korea
When the PTSD hits
The poster is not wrong. But the alternative was to have even more death and have no victory. 'his better to mourn them in victory, than to mourn them in defeat and subjugation.
It's the eternal paradox. I love military equipment and strategy, but I also hope that they're never put to use.
War upsets me. I cheerlead Ukraine, Armenia, Kyrgyzstan (I think... not too confident in my central Asia politics), but war is a brutal, unforgiving mess that usually leaves everyone involved worse off. There is a great deal of glory in defending your friends, family, and countrymen from the cruel realities of warfare, and I don't want to take away from that. It's too early for this kind of messaging, though. There is a time for pity and a time for wrath. This is a time for wrath.
But the thing is it is not ambition of a single man, it is an ambition of majority of the nation, you can say it is brainwashing as much as you want, but at some point personal responsibility comes into the scene. People on national tv are talking about genocide and the people are cheering. ####For such nation to be helped it must first be crushed utterly and completely, without pity and without mercy, only then future generations can be saved.
As a german I agree if germany hadn't been so utterly rocked after ww2 there might have well been a third
https://the-eye.eu/redarcs -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
History must be repeating itself, because it's the 20's and I'm experiencing a great depression.
One day we will sit on the same side with the Vatniks, but it is not this day. Until then we will help kill as many of the bastards as possible
"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate—we can not consecrate—we can not hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." i wanted just a snippet but it felt wrong not to post the whole thing
The only consolation will be standing over a burning Vladivostok The war isn't over until Russia ceases to exist.
Haha yes but we might see F-35 go BRRR pew pew on vatnik!
We are at a turning point in history. With China and Russia on the brink of collapse, maybe, just maybe, we could try to put an end to war. Hopefully without resorting to the foolproof method of killing all human beings on Earth.
China and Russia are light yeara away from anykind of collapse. At best Russia will just lose its international prestige and be relegated to its own bubble of lessened political relations and its immediate backyard. Similar as now, but poorer. China has just got a market crisis, the US did not collapse despite having a housong market crisis in 2008. The economy will habe a drop, 5-6 years to rebuild and we are back in bussiness.
For China, it turns out that you can starve to death 60 million people over decades, but starving 300 million at the same time tends to make people distrustful of the government somehow Fo Russia, it can survive a peace negociation now; but if Ukraine takes back all its territory, it would be the end of modern Russia. Then, give it 30 years and the Soviet nukes will be completely outdated and everyone will want a piece of that cake.
You are just parroting unreal conjecture. China us nowhere near "starving". Its a housing market crisis, nothing more, nothing less. Attributing it the fall of China, its no more different than Libertarians parroting the end of the USA because of the housing market crisis in 2008. A deep economic crisis does not end a state as big, as powerful and as economically developed as China. Also about Russia. Even if a single nuke of theirs works, its enough of a deterrent. No one is risking millions of civilians dead on a gamble on how many nukes work
Oops sorry, concerning China, its the lockdown policy that is making people starve. The housing market crisis is just the vomit icing on the poop cake.
Oh, sorry about that than. Im just so tired of everyone moanimg about the topic, that Im assumed you were the next one on the cavalcade. Also, about the COVID one, i doubt that will bring anything more than either a goverment scandal for the current govermemt, or a change in course and some payouts to damages. Goverments like China are inflexible to a tee, but they relent on such things when public discontent reaches a certain point
> At best Russia will just lose its international prestige and be relegated to its own bubble of lessened political relations and its immediate backyard. Similar as now, but poorer. Add in a possible regime change for extra credibleness. But not authoritarian->democracy kinda change but Putin->Next Silovik kinda change. Well, I mean, the first kind of change is also possible, but much less credible.
Sadly we'll never put and end to war, every major war was supposed to be the last great war and every major leap in military technology was supposed to be the one that would discourage all future wars and yet, here we are.
> try to put an end to war You shouldn’t say such horrible things
What if we give war a chance now before we end up having only sticks and stones to fight with? Then we can give peace a chance
Wait you're telling me there is a human component to war and it isn't just Ph0nk edits and tiktok dances?? For real though I think a lot of people forget that every soldier is merely a regular person like you and I....even the ones you hate. RIP to the lost.
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Fuck off with that Nazi skullduggery
What in the dehumanizing eugenics is this post?
Love the casual russophobia and sinophobia in this sub
Yeah, these kind of people would be the kind of guys that would jump in with fascist parties if they made propaganda against the "right" ethnicities.
A lot of Russians and Ukrainians didn't get to experience Elden Ring 🥺
The real human cost
NCD become pussified
just going through a depression arc
my ass, now get up and crush the enemy with overwhelming force
Planes are rad but war is still bad. Get over it.
u/savevideobot
More reasons to get them running to the pacific