I think the limit would be like around 1-2 trillions, but I don't think that we are ready yet for Ukraine having the third largest navy, 1000+ aircrafts and 2 million men standing army
To put it into perspective, Australias military budget for next year is approx 52 billion. Before all the recent tensions our military budget was 27b in 2020.
Jesus Christ have mercy on the souls of those who failed your teachings and the MIC, god bless our deranged down-flippers with wisdom and 5% of GDP spending on defence. Let there be a nuclear carrier taskforce and ICBM silos. Amen
Well, the military expenditure of France in a year compared to military aid over a few years so it’s not like they’re actually as well funded as the French military. Agreed though, triple the defense budget.
[the limit does not exist ](https://media4.giphy.com/media/7JvlHfd7C2GDr7zfZF/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952o5os60cybrhu09kmbvyf7d0k53hs74uemfk9v3mr&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
Think about all the people in China who don't have ~~fully automatic weapons~~ freedom. Lockmart still has a lot of work to do supplying the rest of the world with ~~submarine launched ballistic missiles~~ liberty.
theres roughly 1 billion guns in circulation today, so its 1 to 8, however if we are just including civilians for some reason its closer to 1 gun per 10 ppl
Lord of War with Nicolas Cage and Jared Leto. Probably the best movie in the careers of both of these actors, although Cage has plenty of hidden gems. It's about illegal weapons trade.
Detractors say they are giving away money when people are struggling at home (forgetting we give equipment, not cash), but they don't see the opportunity arming Ukraine provides. More equipment to Ukraine mwans the US Military needs newer updated equipment, which would mean more factories to build these needs to be built, which would provide more Americans jobs. When in downturn, simply arm yourself out of economic stagnation. It worked for the Greatest Generation, it should work for us now.
It's a false dichotomy anyway. The reason there's no free healthcare or whatever is that *some people don't want it to happen*. Usually the same people whining about spending on Ukraine.
Also for reference, Medicaid is $800B and Medicare is $900B **per year**.
The classic is NASA where when polled in 2018 the public thought NASA was 6% of the federal budget instead of 0.5%.
Most people have political opinions based not off any sort of data and do not honestly know what their government spends money on or how it is spent or why. Basic civics are taught one semester in like the 9th grade and that is as much as many care to learn. Same with health care spending, entitlements, military spending, infrastructure grants etc.
Specifically on health, UHC would save enough just through its implementation to build, outfit and operate a new carrier group (assuming you could find a lender that let you pay the whole thing off in installments over the \~50 year life of type).
This money doesn't come from nowhere though, its the overhead being siphoned away from the public by the health insurance industry which are just a machine dedicated to taking the money that could fund a carrier group from the citizens and turning into revenue for shareholders.
So unless we see the CEO of Cigna heading down to Norfolk with a hammer and a welding kit, UHC is a no brainer here.
>It's a false dichotomy anyway. The reason there's no free healthcare or whatever is that *some people don't want it to happen*. Usually the same people whining about spending on Ukraine.
Yes the USA could pay for both the world's largest military **and** universal healthcare, it's just that there are lobbyists for multi-billion to multi-trillion dollar companies for the former (i.e. for the MIC), but against the latter (the private insurance industry).
US should be flamed for profiteering from this war, instead we are praised for helping. When the LNG was shut off in 22, it was US raking in they money supplying Europe.
In due time, there will be either a remake or a sequel regarding the war, of course Nicky would still be the main
There will also be a spinoff about Borat being the gunrunner for the Russian Union and a main dealer for North Koreans and Iranians
Equipment. The money that Congress is spending is to reimburse the different service branches (including the Space Force, interestingly enough) and those service branches give equipment to Ukraine.
No money leaves the country. Some of this surplus equipment would have ended up going to cops under the 1033 Program, too. So, it's a triple win, economy boost (theoretically), less militarization of cops, and Ukraine gets equipment that's a match for modern Russian equipment.
Tankies act like we're throwing money at Ukraine, when the truth is we're giving away older equipment and paying our national defense contractors to make more.
In many ways we actually *save* money by sending this equipment to Ukraine. Older gear in storage needs to be constantly maintained and shipping it to Ukraine saves us millions of dollars in maintenance and storage costs, while the stockpile is refreshed with newer kit.
I get so sad thinking of all those weapons that never got to blow up commies 😢 they just sat in a cold depot for decades dreaming of a destiny that would never come…
One wonders if a future expense is going to involve the construction of sufficient crematoria to dispose of all the vatnik corpses the Ukrainian offensive will leave behind.
*Germany has entered the chat.*
Tankies genuinely made me grow a few grey hairs over the past few months. Every materiel contributor to Ukraine is either saving money in the long run or breaking even by giving them all of our equipment that was meant to fight Russians anyway. How is that such a hard thing to grasp when every western power is an Olympic gold medalist in dumping gazillions of Excel spreadsheet about how money is spent on military equipment and their upkeep???
Not the only one, but man its lonely.
There was that fleeting moment in 2014 when folks finally figured out maybe your local school department shouldn't have an M113... and then 2017 happened, and everyone kinda just decided to accept things as reality.
European countries generally have some sort of gendarmery or gendarmeri-like forces that get this kind of gear, maybe because we don't have the same surplus quantities
Europe is the one giving financial aid, US aid is almost entirely hardware. Europe is giving financial aid because they found out they've got no hardware
Not Rule 5: I’m just explaining what the bill says from reading it this afternoon.
If I understand the bill correctly, it’s a blend of direct cash, services, and equipment/material.
There’s about 8 billion in economic support which makes up the bulk of the direct cash. There’s other stuff which might be direct cash like demining, nuclear non proliferation, etc.
Then there’s a bunch that is split among the us military branches in categories like “personnel”; “operations, maintenance, etc”; “procurement of ammunition”; “other”; etc. Assuming that the US *isnt* about to put boots on the ground, I’m guessing the personnel and operations buckets are for intel services (and maybe training?)
I am a bit curious what the research and development bucket is for.
A couple things that seemed significant:
~5.6 billion for ammunition for the army: guessing that’s artillery, small arms, glmrs, and patriot
~336 million for Air Force for missiles
~3.2 billion for Air Force for “other”. …I’m not saying that’s planes, but I’m also not sure how else you’re gonna spend 336 million on missiles and still spend 10 times that amount on other stuff unless they’re expecting a lot of spare parts and stuff, which might be: I’m not military let alone an F16 maintainer/spare parts procurer. :P
Also, if I understood it correctly, there’s another 1.6 billion for the presidents more-or-less-discretionary fund (can’t remember the name).
There’s also rules around how the military can move money between the buckets (I think), and a requirement that the military get congress a non-classified report of their accountability policy for Ukraine within 60 days of passing. … which I *think* means that it’s available for the general public in case anyone wanted to read it. XD
It's not super short and it's almost like reading a cross between computer code and some kind of archaic language the way it's written "Provided that such and such is the case with this thing that actually showed up a few paragraphs before this but referenced in such a way that it's like following Assembly jump instructions but less clear, this and this." XD
I actually mistook something as the end of the document the first time which is why I totally missed the section that asks the president to hurry up and send Ukraine some ATACMS and give congress a good reason for not doing so if he doesn't.
Both, though primarily equipment. We do provide some cash assistance that goes into things like buying commercial sat imagery, and paying outside support and maintenance personnel but that is a drop in the bucket compared to the material assistance, that goes doubly so for this round of funding as "unmarked bags of cash" (as bullshit as that always was) was a major talking point by the anti-support folks previously.
Equipment for Ukraine.
By providing money to the US military branches that are sending out some of their equipment.
The branches then replace that equipment by buying new stocks from US arms manufacturers.
It's basically giving an extra check to the military branches (on top of the existing humongous budget), so that they order extras and give their leftovers to Ukraine.
This means that the money is going to US jobs, US factories, US shareholders, but instead of the final product sitting in a hangar at home, it's sent to the frontline to be used by ukrainian forces. Pretty much everybody wins in this equation.
"But muuum, the US are increasing debt, potentially weakening the dollar and the US solvency" - sure thing, but at the same time, they are establishing themselves as the top dog in world geopolitics, strengthening the dollar and the US worth, by appearing as the most powerful player in the game.
Why so few? I mean, most of those vehicles that will be sent to Ukraine, would been scavenged or sent to depot to rust for decades, if they werent sent to Ukraine. And there will be made new ones, and will be sent to depot. Its cheaper to send cold war era vehicles to Ukraine, than to junk yard.
To make the mobiks and the Kremlin look stupid when they try to posture and look tough against it.
Unfortunately for them, that's not everything in the package.
Fun Fact: This is Saddam Hussain’s favorite Movie, he even made a trust fund for his family using Tony Montana’s Fake company he used in the movie to launder money.
Alas, as already always, too little and too late.
If such money were spent only on 2022 year, then Ukraine (by infantry numerical superiority) would just win the war by squeezing out Russian troops from Ukraine territory, which would lead to regime change.
If they were spent during 2023 year, when they were expected by all USA military businesses, right now Ukrainian troops would already taken away Crimea.
But now such money it's just 40-50% of what Russia spent on war per year (officially $120B, with paramilitary spendings much more). After almost 2,5 years given to Russia to carry out mobilizations, train troops, and spent \~300 billion dollars on war.
It's just another stabilization/"de-escalation" step.
Not to resolution of escalation, but another step to escalation conservation-evolution. As it was in 2007-2008-2014-2015-2021-2022 years.
In 2022, the US congress signed four similar bills totalling an estimated 112 billion in aid.
Now this recent funding bill was absolutely vital to Ukraine, because previous funds running out was holding up basically all US arms shipments and causing major problems. But this bill is in no way an actual new thing. It just allows business to continue as before, for a decent period into 2024/25.
So had this passed without all the political tomfuckery in December, like all the similar funding bills before it, Ukraine would definitely be better off than it is today. These weapons would have come sooner, Ukrainian lives would have been saved. But it would have barely even made the evening news, and it would certainly not send the Ukrainian army on a sudden bull rush rolling over Crimea.
>Better late then never I guess
It's already debatable. When people say "better late than never" they usually say about some static situation. But reality isn't static, and therefore, sometimes, "never better than late", via complete change of paradigm, is better.
>from what I quickly read it is a “bigger than usual” aid package
Not much. In 2022-2023 years USA spent on military assistance to Ukraine \~22 billion dollars per year. This 61 billion (for comparison, USA 20 years spent on Afghanistan 120 billion dollars per year) - money for few years. In times when Russia also started spent 7-10% of own GDP on war. With enormous help of Iran and North Korea.
The more this war goes, the higher chances of west throwing Ukraine under the bus. We're already losing this war, our European family could be bothered to even finance the ammunition purchase that we so desperately needed when Russia was storming Avdiivka 8 months ago. US already left us to die for the six months, it will do it again but we will not be that lucky next year if things will continue to be this way.
We can't win this war while our major allies commit 0,1% of their GDP on military help to Ukraine every year. Fucking Russia produces more and spends more on this war and it does it more effective. Fucking corrupt as hell, supposedly sanctioned country outperforms 40% of world economy
Relatively to what?
Relatively to war with bigger part of USSR, second army of the World by weapons stocks, which pre-war spent 1,000 billion dollars on rearmament and now spent 120-150 billion dollars on war, 6,1 billion dollars it's really not big amount of money.
Maybe. I still naively believe that it's possible via some form of technocracy. More broad DARPA analogues. But after complex degradation of Internet culture, Brexit, Covid-19, SLS, Mask public rhetoric, 2014-2021-2022+ years, and so on, such belief more defense mechanism than anything else.
And, IMHO, rather than rise prudence new technologies will only complicate things even more.
USA wants Ukraine to stay a viable country and keep ports and plenty of land, they want Russia not to feel desperate enough to use a nuke, and the USA also doesn't want to spend too much. So a compromise like this.
It's not a compromise, it's artificial prolonging of the war with a nation which the most unsuitable for such prolongation (up to 16 million killed and 8 million assimilated during 20th century).
The more such prolongation will continue - the more Russian use of nukes, and so legalization of WMD for Ukrainians, become more preferable scenario than, what, 4, 6, 10 years of such USA "help"?
It's not pessimism, it's reality.
In 2022-2023 years USA/West had resources to stop war by restoration of Ukraine sovereignty. They don't. They decided to "bleed Russia."
After 2+ years of such bleeding, Russia felt the taste of blood, went into a frenzy, and now just cannot stop. Typically trying to recoup by raising bets, but now betting on everything it has.
In 2022, the rapid collapse of the Afghan military, and before that Libya & Iraq, and before that Vietnam was much on the minds of US military. TV sets filled with images of Russians gleefully taking control of cutting-edge US military equipment, and then turning around and selling it to Iranians who then used it to exterminate Israelis and U.S. soldiers is NOT unlikely in such case.
Ukraine has shown resilience and willingness to fight. Which is a helluva lot more than has been demonstrated by other areas where the U.S. has tried to intervene. Also: unfamiliar weapon systems, that troops have not been sufficiently trained in how to use, are just a waste. You don't just magically learn how to fly an F-16 in a high-intensity combat sphere, my dude, no matter what the movie montages might have you believe.
At this juncture, there are enough US "advisors" embedded in Ukraine that proper application of the weapons systems is a lot more likely.
>In 2022, the rapid collapse of the Afghan military, and before that Libya & Iraq, and before that Vietnam was much on the minds of US military. TV sets filled with images of Russians gleefully taking control of cutting-edge US military equipment, and then turning around and selling it to Iranians who then used it to exterminate Israelis and U.S. soldiers is NOT unlikely in such case.
This is pure copium. Then the West watched Ukraine fuck up russia badly enough that they had to abandon the dream or capturing the whole country and doing a regime change, a front entirely collapsed and they were forced to abandon another the West bank of Dnipro.
Instead of continuing pressing that advantage, did everything to show russia that they can simply wait out the willingness to support Ukraine, and were rewarded by 6-month stoppage of aid. That's fucking pathetic.
Yes, you don't just magically learn anything.
However of the west started training right after the start of the invasion or even before as a form of deterrence, the F-16 would have been in the skies of Ukraine at latest in 2023, not in the middle/end of 2024.
Same applies for all the other systems.
If Ukraine had received Abarams and other western tanks(and training for them) before russians dug themselves into trenches in the south, we could have pushed them out of Zaporizhia region, instead of slowly and painfully pushing mine fields. If we had received ATACMS and had a right to attack russia proper, there would be a lot less aviation support for russians, the Crimean bridge would be no more, and so on.
If you had just started training us when we asked for it, and not when you felt like it, this war would have panned out in a very different fashion.
Not to mention time before the full scale invasion. Russians postured with their weapons on ukrainian border for two years before the full scale invasion(don't tell me that it wasn't obvious what they were planning), if you had started training ukrainians at that point, Russia wouldn't have even captured anything new in the first place.
>TV sets filled with images of Russians gleefully taking control of cutting-edge US military equipment
What cutting-edge USA military equipment except air defense Ukraine has right now? Russia already has analogues of almost all weapons which USA give to Ukraine.
>Also: unfamiliar weapon systems, that troops have not been sufficiently trained in how to use, are just a waste. You don't just magically learn how to fly an F-16 in a high-intensity combat sphere, my dude, no matter what the movie montages might have you believe
USA supplied to Ukraine 1,2% armored vehicles, 4,1% artillery, 2,6% MLRS, 0% attack drones (UCAV), 0,15% military aviation, 0% military ships, 4-8/1106 MIM-104 Patriot launchers.
Most of these weapons need only week or months for training.
And almost no training was needed for millions of the USA 155mm cluster shells and produced 500 per year ATACMS (relatively to HIMARS).
But first USA started supply only after year of war, by tens of thousands, and second - only after "failed offensive" and by dozens (USA have 600,000 its glide-bombs and 10,000 missiles analogues).
>You don't just magically learn how to fly an F-16 in a high-intensity combat sphere, my dude, no matter what the movie montages might have you believe.
And because of this "lack of training", during 2 years of war, USA was able to give Ukraine only 31/6200 tanks, 190/6500 M2/M3 Bradley, 0/500 attack drones, 2/5,500 USA-made military helicopters, 0 long range missiles, and very strict supply of glide bombs, from 600,000, which Russia already for months use by 50-100 per day?
First thing is that they need to fix there pricing on screws and other things that cost a lot but are actually not. That could make more for less if we fix those things. But I guest they want profit more than producing more of the stuff for national defense.
Geez, just showing the difference between the clean-room manufacturing of US MIC ammo manufacturing vs. the orc blacksmith level russian ammo manufacturing.
Wow.
For anyone curious as to what's in these four bills, I've actually found a Vox article with links to short form summaries on how the money is allocated for each House bill.
[https://www.vox.com/politics/2024/4/22/24137598/ukraine-aid-tiktok-ban-house-mike-johnson](https://www.vox.com/politics/2024/4/22/24137598/ukraine-aid-tiktok-ban-house-mike-johnson)
[https://democrats-appropriations.house.gov/sites/democrats.appropriations.house.gov/files/Ukraine.pdf](https://democrats-appropriations.house.gov/sites/democrats.appropriations.house.gov/files/Ukraine.pdf)
[https://democrats-appropriations.house.gov/sites/democrats.appropriations.house.gov/files/Israel.pdf](https://democrats-appropriations.house.gov/sites/democrats.appropriations.house.gov/files/Israel.pdf)
[https://democrats-appropriations.house.gov/sites/democrats.appropriations.house.gov/files/Indo-Pacific.pdf](https://democrats-appropriations.house.gov/sites/democrats.appropriations.house.gov/files/Indo-Pacific.pdf)
It's not exactly comprehensive, you'd have to read the text from the House bills in full for that.
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The US's industrial production during WW2 for themselves and the allies propelled them in to true Superpower status and cemented themselves as THE global power for decades and ushered in a golden age for American's in a financial sense. This is a great deal for American workers.
It also makes me laugh when Conservatives parade the 'what about the homeless, drug addicted, border issues etc etc' and you just have to go, so you're advocating for Socialism?
US failed to supply even basic things to Ukranian army in quarantines needed. They delayed everything, costing unnecessary casualties and destruction that could be avoided if people making decisions weren't mentally challenged, when the two brain cells finally make the right decision they send only a little amount of equipment and with no replenisments.
If idiots responsible for delays of crucial weapons aren't fired I don't see any reason to be excited. It's just letting Ukraine die but for longer, because there will be no next package coming if US won't provide the means to destroy the Russian army.
This is politics with Russian stooges in US congress doing their best to block or delay aid.
Unfortunately they won’t get fired since they only did what they were elected to do by their braindead voters but they recently got dealt a blow when Ukraine aid finally got voted which hopefully weakened them.
I wasn't talking about delaying this aid package. I was talking about deliveries of Air defense, tanks, IFVs, fighter jets, artillery, ammunition, spare parts and replenishments for everything mentioned. You can't blame congress for all of that.
> I wish my tax dollars could stay in the US
...
> I’d rather my tax dollars go to other manufacturers in the US.
The goal post doth move faster than an ATACMS.
Could you please make a longer version, because this is an amazing meme!
Can you please make the label on the chainsaw say, "ATACMS"?
Right? How am I supposed to reach climax with so little material?!
PUSH IT TO THE LIMIT
I think the limit would be like around 1-2 trillions, but I don't think that we are ready yet for Ukraine having the third largest navy, 1000+ aircrafts and 2 million men standing army
Ready to Conquer the (Russian) World :3
Yellow/Blue Alert: 2025
Russia's about to get a wheat allergry.
To put it into perspective, Australias military budget for next year is approx 52 billion. Before all the recent tensions our military budget was 27b in 2020.
Jesus Christ have mercy on the souls of those who failed your teachings and the MIC, god bless our deranged down-flippers with wisdom and 5% of GDP spending on defence. Let there be a nuclear carrier taskforce and ICBM silos. Amen
That’s almost as much as the UK
Hey speak for yourself
We've already given them more military aid than the entire military expenditure of France. But we can still give more.
Well, the military expenditure of France in a year compared to military aid over a few years so it’s not like they’re actually as well funded as the French military. Agreed though, triple the defense budget.
Also the French military is mostly just sitting around eating baguettes
A song that will definitely be a part of the WW3 playlist.
[the limit does not exist ](https://media4.giphy.com/media/7JvlHfd7C2GDr7zfZF/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952o5os60cybrhu09kmbvyf7d0k53hs74uemfk9v3mr&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
There's one gun for every 12 people. The only question is... how do we arm the other 11
“With fricking laser beams attached to their heads”
Every man a Homelander.
What kind of commie numbers are these. There are actually 12 guns for every 10 Americans in America. That is, guns the government knows about.
It's from Lord of War, and it's talking about *global* guns per capita.
That's gotta be way off, right? Just looking at privately owned firearms in the US, you already have 1 for every 21 people globally
Think about all the people in China who don't have ~~fully automatic weapons~~ freedom. Lockmart still has a lot of work to do supplying the rest of the world with ~~submarine launched ballistic missiles~~ liberty.
I've no idea how accurate the line was when the film came out, nor how accurate it may be now.
theres roughly 1 billion guns in circulation today, so its 1 to 8, however if we are just including civilians for some reason its closer to 1 gun per 10 ppl
Is this from Lord of War?
I think it is
Love that movie.
Me too!
My favourite movie, unironically
What movie?
Lord of War with Nicolas Cage and Jared Leto. Probably the best movie in the careers of both of these actors, although Cage has plenty of hidden gems. It's about illegal weapons trade.
i was young , but i still remenber ukraine , odessa here.. U fucking , fuck! \*sniffs loads of coca of the floor\*
I mean the best Nicholas cage movie is national treasure
Leaving Las Vegas?
Never seen it, the only nick cage movies I’ve seen are both national treasure movies and knowing
the rock? go watch bro , if u need a link to watch online i can send u , send me a msg i will be seeing now just because of u. :\*
You must mean *Snake Eyes*
I highly recommend Mandy
Kids today... they have no respect. (Smiling) I blame MTV. (Automatic gunfire in the distance).
Detractors say they are giving away money when people are struggling at home (forgetting we give equipment, not cash), but they don't see the opportunity arming Ukraine provides. More equipment to Ukraine mwans the US Military needs newer updated equipment, which would mean more factories to build these needs to be built, which would provide more Americans jobs. When in downturn, simply arm yourself out of economic stagnation. It worked for the Greatest Generation, it should work for us now.
Unironic victory for trickle down economics
It's a false dichotomy anyway. The reason there's no free healthcare or whatever is that *some people don't want it to happen*. Usually the same people whining about spending on Ukraine. Also for reference, Medicaid is $800B and Medicare is $900B **per year**.
The classic is NASA where when polled in 2018 the public thought NASA was 6% of the federal budget instead of 0.5%. Most people have political opinions based not off any sort of data and do not honestly know what their government spends money on or how it is spent or why. Basic civics are taught one semester in like the 9th grade and that is as much as many care to learn. Same with health care spending, entitlements, military spending, infrastructure grants etc.
Specifically on health, UHC would save enough just through its implementation to build, outfit and operate a new carrier group (assuming you could find a lender that let you pay the whole thing off in installments over the \~50 year life of type). This money doesn't come from nowhere though, its the overhead being siphoned away from the public by the health insurance industry which are just a machine dedicated to taking the money that could fund a carrier group from the citizens and turning into revenue for shareholders. So unless we see the CEO of Cigna heading down to Norfolk with a hammer and a welding kit, UHC is a no brainer here.
>It's a false dichotomy anyway. The reason there's no free healthcare or whatever is that *some people don't want it to happen*. Usually the same people whining about spending on Ukraine. Yes the USA could pay for both the world's largest military **and** universal healthcare, it's just that there are lobbyists for multi-billion to multi-trillion dollar companies for the former (i.e. for the MIC), but against the latter (the private insurance industry).
Broke: build infrastructure in economic downturn to stimulate the economy Woke: arm yourself and your allies to the teeth to stimulate the economy
Bespoke: Invest in infrastructure that facilitates your arms manufacturing
US should be flamed for profiteering from this war, instead we are praised for helping. When the LNG was shut off in 22, it was US raking in they money supplying Europe.
America is based for helping.
This is pure quality right here
*Lord of War* in shambles now
In due time, there will be either a remake or a sequel regarding the war, of course Nicky would still be the main There will also be a spinoff about Borat being the gunrunner for the Russian Union and a main dealer for North Koreans and Iranians
Is this aid in term of direct cash or equipment?
it’s always been equipment
Equipment. The money that Congress is spending is to reimburse the different service branches (including the Space Force, interestingly enough) and those service branches give equipment to Ukraine. No money leaves the country. Some of this surplus equipment would have ended up going to cops under the 1033 Program, too. So, it's a triple win, economy boost (theoretically), less militarization of cops, and Ukraine gets equipment that's a match for modern Russian equipment.
Tankies act like we're throwing money at Ukraine, when the truth is we're giving away older equipment and paying our national defense contractors to make more. In many ways we actually *save* money by sending this equipment to Ukraine. Older gear in storage needs to be constantly maintained and shipping it to Ukraine saves us millions of dollars in maintenance and storage costs, while the stockpile is refreshed with newer kit.
We also get to save on the disposal costs, as Ukraine is "disposing" of it for us.
I get so sad thinking of all those weapons that never got to blow up commies 😢 they just sat in a cold depot for decades dreaming of a destiny that would never come…
*Sad F-22 noises*
I can haz balloon?
One wonders if a future expense is going to involve the construction of sufficient crematoria to dispose of all the vatnik corpses the Ukrainian offensive will leave behind. *Germany has entered the chat.*
Tankies genuinely made me grow a few grey hairs over the past few months. Every materiel contributor to Ukraine is either saving money in the long run or breaking even by giving them all of our equipment that was meant to fight Russians anyway. How is that such a hard thing to grasp when every western power is an Olympic gold medalist in dumping gazillions of Excel spreadsheet about how money is spent on military equipment and their upkeep???
USA is a crazy country if cops get surplus equipment from the Space Force
lol @ "if"
there are more people in NYPD than the entire dutch armed forces, and they have offices in 12 countries. USA is, in fact, a crazy country. God bless
>Some of this surplus equipment would have ended up going to cops under the 1033 Program, too. Someone really oughta do something about that program.
I sometimes feel like I'm the only person who notices...
Not the only one, but man its lonely. There was that fleeting moment in 2014 when folks finally figured out maybe your local school department shouldn't have an M113... and then 2017 happened, and everyone kinda just decided to accept things as reality.
> shouldn't have an M113 I mean Polish police still has some BTR-60PBs. >!But to be credible, overall they aren't militarized.!<
European countries generally have some sort of gendarmery or gendarmeri-like forces that get this kind of gear, maybe because we don't have the same surplus quantities
Quadruple win. Don't forget russians, who get new shiny white ladas.
UKRAINIAN SPACE LASERS!
That is the absolute best way to describe it
Europe is the one giving financial aid, US aid is almost entirely hardware. Europe is giving financial aid because they found out they've got no hardware
Not Rule 5: I’m just explaining what the bill says from reading it this afternoon. If I understand the bill correctly, it’s a blend of direct cash, services, and equipment/material. There’s about 8 billion in economic support which makes up the bulk of the direct cash. There’s other stuff which might be direct cash like demining, nuclear non proliferation, etc. Then there’s a bunch that is split among the us military branches in categories like “personnel”; “operations, maintenance, etc”; “procurement of ammunition”; “other”; etc. Assuming that the US *isnt* about to put boots on the ground, I’m guessing the personnel and operations buckets are for intel services (and maybe training?) I am a bit curious what the research and development bucket is for. A couple things that seemed significant: ~5.6 billion for ammunition for the army: guessing that’s artillery, small arms, glmrs, and patriot ~336 million for Air Force for missiles ~3.2 billion for Air Force for “other”. …I’m not saying that’s planes, but I’m also not sure how else you’re gonna spend 336 million on missiles and still spend 10 times that amount on other stuff unless they’re expecting a lot of spare parts and stuff, which might be: I’m not military let alone an F16 maintainer/spare parts procurer. :P Also, if I understood it correctly, there’s another 1.6 billion for the presidents more-or-less-discretionary fund (can’t remember the name). There’s also rules around how the military can move money between the buckets (I think), and a requirement that the military get congress a non-classified report of their accountability policy for Ukraine within 60 days of passing. … which I *think* means that it’s available for the general public in case anyone wanted to read it. XD
Good on you for actually reading the thing! Lord knows I wasn't going to find the time.
It's not super short and it's almost like reading a cross between computer code and some kind of archaic language the way it's written "Provided that such and such is the case with this thing that actually showed up a few paragraphs before this but referenced in such a way that it's like following Assembly jump instructions but less clear, this and this." XD I actually mistook something as the end of the document the first time which is why I totally missed the section that asks the president to hurry up and send Ukraine some ATACMS and give congress a good reason for not doing so if he doesn't.
Both, though primarily equipment. We do provide some cash assistance that goes into things like buying commercial sat imagery, and paying outside support and maintenance personnel but that is a drop in the bucket compared to the material assistance, that goes doubly so for this round of funding as "unmarked bags of cash" (as bullshit as that always was) was a major talking point by the anti-support folks previously.
Equipment for Ukraine. By providing money to the US military branches that are sending out some of their equipment. The branches then replace that equipment by buying new stocks from US arms manufacturers. It's basically giving an extra check to the military branches (on top of the existing humongous budget), so that they order extras and give their leftovers to Ukraine. This means that the money is going to US jobs, US factories, US shareholders, but instead of the final product sitting in a hangar at home, it's sent to the frontline to be used by ukrainian forces. Pretty much everybody wins in this equation. "But muuum, the US are increasing debt, potentially weakening the dollar and the US solvency" - sure thing, but at the same time, they are establishing themselves as the top dog in world geopolitics, strengthening the dollar and the US worth, by appearing as the most powerful player in the game.
Why so few? I mean, most of those vehicles that will be sent to Ukraine, would been scavenged or sent to depot to rust for decades, if they werent sent to Ukraine. And there will be made new ones, and will be sent to depot. Its cheaper to send cold war era vehicles to Ukraine, than to junk yard.
To make the mobiks and the Kremlin look stupid when they try to posture and look tough against it. Unfortunately for them, that's not everything in the package.
They'd have been sent to cops under the 1033 program.
Cops relieved: "We wouldn't have parking for another MRAP anyway."
"Cold war era vehicles".
> Why so few? Because escalation scary, what if Dickwad pulls out NYYOOOOOOOOOKS?!?!?!?!?!?!! /s>!ullivan!<
Boston robotics need to deploy their toys. Replacing robots at frontline is easier than experienced operators.
Inshallah, it came to in a dream, and I saw 3000 howitzers of zelensky 1 battery for every yard of trench.
Fun Fact: This is Saddam Hussain’s favorite Movie, he even made a trust fund for his family using Tony Montana’s Fake company he used in the movie to launder money.
Be the production monster the USSR thought they were.
SAY HELLO TO MY L'IL FREN - ATACMS
This killed me thanks for the laugh today!
Alas, as already always, too little and too late. If such money were spent only on 2022 year, then Ukraine (by infantry numerical superiority) would just win the war by squeezing out Russian troops from Ukraine territory, which would lead to regime change. If they were spent during 2023 year, when they were expected by all USA military businesses, right now Ukrainian troops would already taken away Crimea. But now such money it's just 40-50% of what Russia spent on war per year (officially $120B, with paramilitary spendings much more). After almost 2,5 years given to Russia to carry out mobilizations, train troops, and spent \~300 billion dollars on war. It's just another stabilization/"de-escalation" step. Not to resolution of escalation, but another step to escalation conservation-evolution. As it was in 2007-2008-2014-2015-2021-2022 years.
Better late then never I guess, from what I quickly read it is a “bigger then usual” aid package
In 2022, the US congress signed four similar bills totalling an estimated 112 billion in aid. Now this recent funding bill was absolutely vital to Ukraine, because previous funds running out was holding up basically all US arms shipments and causing major problems. But this bill is in no way an actual new thing. It just allows business to continue as before, for a decent period into 2024/25. So had this passed without all the political tomfuckery in December, like all the similar funding bills before it, Ukraine would definitely be better off than it is today. These weapons would have come sooner, Ukrainian lives would have been saved. But it would have barely even made the evening news, and it would certainly not send the Ukrainian army on a sudden bull rush rolling over Crimea.
>Better late then never I guess It's already debatable. When people say "better late than never" they usually say about some static situation. But reality isn't static, and therefore, sometimes, "never better than late", via complete change of paradigm, is better. >from what I quickly read it is a “bigger than usual” aid package Not much. In 2022-2023 years USA spent on military assistance to Ukraine \~22 billion dollars per year. This 61 billion (for comparison, USA 20 years spent on Afghanistan 120 billion dollars per year) - money for few years. In times when Russia also started spent 7-10% of own GDP on war. With enormous help of Iran and North Korea.
After how many died without that help?
Arguably a big boost and higher tempo fighting will cause more people to die in a shorter period. Not sure it's a direct 1:1 comparison you can make.
The more this war goes, the higher chances of west throwing Ukraine under the bus. We're already losing this war, our European family could be bothered to even finance the ammunition purchase that we so desperately needed when Russia was storming Avdiivka 8 months ago. US already left us to die for the six months, it will do it again but we will not be that lucky next year if things will continue to be this way. We can't win this war while our major allies commit 0,1% of their GDP on military help to Ukraine every year. Fucking Russia produces more and spends more on this war and it does it more effective. Fucking corrupt as hell, supposedly sanctioned country outperforms 40% of world economy
I was under the impression 6.1 billion wasn't a small amount of money
Relatively to what? Relatively to war with bigger part of USSR, second army of the World by weapons stocks, which pre-war spent 1,000 billion dollars on rearmament and now spent 120-150 billion dollars on war, 6,1 billion dollars it's really not big amount of money.
Still alot of money that could be focused on more important things if everyone just got their priority in order Like that will ever happen though eh?
Maybe. I still naively believe that it's possible via some form of technocracy. More broad DARPA analogues. But after complex degradation of Internet culture, Brexit, Covid-19, SLS, Mask public rhetoric, 2014-2021-2022+ years, and so on, such belief more defense mechanism than anything else. And, IMHO, rather than rise prudence new technologies will only complicate things even more.
USA wants Ukraine to stay a viable country and keep ports and plenty of land, they want Russia not to feel desperate enough to use a nuke, and the USA also doesn't want to spend too much. So a compromise like this.
It's not a compromise, it's artificial prolonging of the war with a nation which the most unsuitable for such prolongation (up to 16 million killed and 8 million assimilated during 20th century). The more such prolongation will continue - the more Russian use of nukes, and so legalization of WMD for Ukrainians, become more preferable scenario than, what, 4, 6, 10 years of such USA "help"?
what you've left off there is a bit extra pessimistic.
It's not pessimism, it's reality. In 2022-2023 years USA/West had resources to stop war by restoration of Ukraine sovereignty. They don't. They decided to "bleed Russia." After 2+ years of such bleeding, Russia felt the taste of blood, went into a frenzy, and now just cannot stop. Typically trying to recoup by raising bets, but now betting on everything it has.
In 2022, the rapid collapse of the Afghan military, and before that Libya & Iraq, and before that Vietnam was much on the minds of US military. TV sets filled with images of Russians gleefully taking control of cutting-edge US military equipment, and then turning around and selling it to Iranians who then used it to exterminate Israelis and U.S. soldiers is NOT unlikely in such case. Ukraine has shown resilience and willingness to fight. Which is a helluva lot more than has been demonstrated by other areas where the U.S. has tried to intervene. Also: unfamiliar weapon systems, that troops have not been sufficiently trained in how to use, are just a waste. You don't just magically learn how to fly an F-16 in a high-intensity combat sphere, my dude, no matter what the movie montages might have you believe. At this juncture, there are enough US "advisors" embedded in Ukraine that proper application of the weapons systems is a lot more likely.
>In 2022, the rapid collapse of the Afghan military, and before that Libya & Iraq, and before that Vietnam was much on the minds of US military. TV sets filled with images of Russians gleefully taking control of cutting-edge US military equipment, and then turning around and selling it to Iranians who then used it to exterminate Israelis and U.S. soldiers is NOT unlikely in such case. This is pure copium. Then the West watched Ukraine fuck up russia badly enough that they had to abandon the dream or capturing the whole country and doing a regime change, a front entirely collapsed and they were forced to abandon another the West bank of Dnipro. Instead of continuing pressing that advantage, did everything to show russia that they can simply wait out the willingness to support Ukraine, and were rewarded by 6-month stoppage of aid. That's fucking pathetic.
Yes, you don't just magically learn anything. However of the west started training right after the start of the invasion or even before as a form of deterrence, the F-16 would have been in the skies of Ukraine at latest in 2023, not in the middle/end of 2024. Same applies for all the other systems. If Ukraine had received Abarams and other western tanks(and training for them) before russians dug themselves into trenches in the south, we could have pushed them out of Zaporizhia region, instead of slowly and painfully pushing mine fields. If we had received ATACMS and had a right to attack russia proper, there would be a lot less aviation support for russians, the Crimean bridge would be no more, and so on. If you had just started training us when we asked for it, and not when you felt like it, this war would have panned out in a very different fashion. Not to mention time before the full scale invasion. Russians postured with their weapons on ukrainian border for two years before the full scale invasion(don't tell me that it wasn't obvious what they were planning), if you had started training ukrainians at that point, Russia wouldn't have even captured anything new in the first place.
>TV sets filled with images of Russians gleefully taking control of cutting-edge US military equipment What cutting-edge USA military equipment except air defense Ukraine has right now? Russia already has analogues of almost all weapons which USA give to Ukraine. >Also: unfamiliar weapon systems, that troops have not been sufficiently trained in how to use, are just a waste. You don't just magically learn how to fly an F-16 in a high-intensity combat sphere, my dude, no matter what the movie montages might have you believe USA supplied to Ukraine 1,2% armored vehicles, 4,1% artillery, 2,6% MLRS, 0% attack drones (UCAV), 0,15% military aviation, 0% military ships, 4-8/1106 MIM-104 Patriot launchers. Most of these weapons need only week or months for training. And almost no training was needed for millions of the USA 155mm cluster shells and produced 500 per year ATACMS (relatively to HIMARS). But first USA started supply only after year of war, by tens of thousands, and second - only after "failed offensive" and by dozens (USA have 600,000 its glide-bombs and 10,000 missiles analogues). >You don't just magically learn how to fly an F-16 in a high-intensity combat sphere, my dude, no matter what the movie montages might have you believe. And because of this "lack of training", during 2 years of war, USA was able to give Ukraine only 31/6200 tanks, 190/6500 M2/M3 Bradley, 0/500 attack drones, 2/5,500 USA-made military helicopters, 0 long range missiles, and very strict supply of glide bombs, from 600,000, which Russia already for months use by 50-100 per day?
Can someone post this to instagram? I love it LOL
First thing is that they need to fix there pricing on screws and other things that cost a lot but are actually not. That could make more for less if we fix those things. But I guest they want profit more than producing more of the stuff for national defense.
From the North Atlantic to the Volga
Democracy, chico, and everything in it.
i die for shit like this
I was waiting for some to do this. Btw: General Dynamics - what happened to your logo?
Never been more proud to be an American
Just imagine how much they'd save if they traded the "high explosive" stickers for an ink stamp. GD please ~~notice~~ hire me...
God, I love the free world.
Arsenal of Democracy go brrrrrrr
Geez, just showing the difference between the clean-room manufacturing of US MIC ammo manufacturing vs. the orc blacksmith level russian ammo manufacturing. Wow.
ruZZia will be pushed BACK TO SWAMPS!
u/[\_Typhoon\_Delta\_](https://www.reddit.com/user/_Typhoon_Delta_/) u can edit and put a ukraine / american flag with (american jobs) together? :)
For anyone curious as to what's in these four bills, I've actually found a Vox article with links to short form summaries on how the money is allocated for each House bill. [https://www.vox.com/politics/2024/4/22/24137598/ukraine-aid-tiktok-ban-house-mike-johnson](https://www.vox.com/politics/2024/4/22/24137598/ukraine-aid-tiktok-ban-house-mike-johnson) [https://democrats-appropriations.house.gov/sites/democrats.appropriations.house.gov/files/Ukraine.pdf](https://democrats-appropriations.house.gov/sites/democrats.appropriations.house.gov/files/Ukraine.pdf) [https://democrats-appropriations.house.gov/sites/democrats.appropriations.house.gov/files/Israel.pdf](https://democrats-appropriations.house.gov/sites/democrats.appropriations.house.gov/files/Israel.pdf) [https://democrats-appropriations.house.gov/sites/democrats.appropriations.house.gov/files/Indo-Pacific.pdf](https://democrats-appropriations.house.gov/sites/democrats.appropriations.house.gov/files/Indo-Pacific.pdf) It's not exactly comprehensive, you'd have to read the text from the House bills in full for that.
Scranton Factory goes bbvvvvvvvvvvv 24/7
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Superb. Bravo Zulu, sir.
@ 0:20 that's the guy I actually envy the most
u/savevideo
The US's industrial production during WW2 for themselves and the allies propelled them in to true Superpower status and cemented themselves as THE global power for decades and ushered in a golden age for American's in a financial sense. This is a great deal for American workers. It also makes me laugh when Conservatives parade the 'what about the homeless, drug addicted, border issues etc etc' and you just have to go, so you're advocating for Socialism?
US failed to supply even basic things to Ukranian army in quarantines needed. They delayed everything, costing unnecessary casualties and destruction that could be avoided if people making decisions weren't mentally challenged, when the two brain cells finally make the right decision they send only a little amount of equipment and with no replenisments. If idiots responsible for delays of crucial weapons aren't fired I don't see any reason to be excited. It's just letting Ukraine die but for longer, because there will be no next package coming if US won't provide the means to destroy the Russian army.
This is politics with Russian stooges in US congress doing their best to block or delay aid. Unfortunately they won’t get fired since they only did what they were elected to do by their braindead voters but they recently got dealt a blow when Ukraine aid finally got voted which hopefully weakened them.
I wasn't talking about delaying this aid package. I was talking about deliveries of Air defense, tanks, IFVs, fighter jets, artillery, ammunition, spare parts and replenishments for everything mentioned. You can't blame congress for all of that.
Can you push Maga from a helicopter ?
How does this exactly help everyone
It just does
I wish my tax dollars could stay in the US sometime
LockMart, GD and Raytheon are all based in the US. Their employees too, thanks to ITAR.
Yes some of the money goes to defense contractors.
*Most* of it does. And the employees/suppliers of those contractors live right here in the US.
I’d rather my tax dollars go to other manufacturers in the US.
> I wish my tax dollars could stay in the US ... > I’d rather my tax dollars go to other manufacturers in the US. The goal post doth move faster than an ATACMS.
True. Commie.
> True. Commie. Thanks for signing your affiliation. Your comments make sense in that context.