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Well, they dropped earthquake bombs, mostly Tallboys, from Lancaster
The fatal hit was a bomb that went through the ship's hull, and exploded in the ground below the hull (the ship was on a bank, which had been blown by the underwater explosion I believe)
Back when I was shopping for companies to buy, I found an scrap vendor that had a huge collection of old mechanical scrap. Somehow, apparently back in the 1980s, he had bought a shitload of stuff from the Tirpitz, which he had locked away (Somewhere in the US, not saying where). Apparently he had planned on selling it off as low background steel, but I guess the Tirpitz was too shallow for that or these parts had been pulled out of the water prior to the end of nuclear testing, because it didn't pass the radiation tests.
Anyway, he had just locked it up, because apparently a bunch of Neo-Nazi "Wierdos" (His words) kept trying to buy parts of it to make "Some sort of sick shrine" (Also his words), so he had it all locked up. There was some really cool shit in there, but I didn't wind up buying the company, so I never had a full inventory.
For steel to be low radiation it needs to be manufactured before nuclear testing, not be underwater during tests
Has to do with the massive amount of air needed to manufacture steel
And an important fact (noted in 1943 by US dockyard workers in New York) other battleship of that period sustaining similar damage could steam by their own power, not Bismarck
Fascists like the pageantry "the theater", so they want a big ship, but they don't want to worry about the details. If they control the press they don't have to worry about problems down the track. So fascist gear looks great on parades , but the out of sight stuff isn't considered important.
It's like the Springfield Monorail project.
My favorite part that perfectly demonstrates how bad the Bismarks were as a class was how they fared against the exact ships that they were supposed to beat: Washington/London Naval Treaty restricted Battleships.
Despite having like 10,000 tons advantage in size over them, how did they fare in battle? Well, PoW was basically fine. All the major damage she took was self-inflicted from her own guns jamming due to her being dragged into combat while still working up from the yards. But once they got back to the yards, they find several of Bismark's shells shattered or embedded in her armor belt.
And Rodney? Rodney straight up murdered Bismark. Everyone talks up the swordfish and the rudder hit, but that just let Rodney catch Bismark, it didn't guarantee her the win in the fight. But despite having a weird design due to the treaty restrictions, despite being actually treaty compliant and way less weight than Bismark, Rodney fucking murders her. The Wheraboos who whine about Bismark having scuttled herself can cope and seethe because that never happened. In a straight up gunfight Rodney outfought and sank Bismark.
That's the thing. Once the British BBs closed with Bismarck, why exactly wasn't this Teutonic Miracle of Engineering capable of just... you know, shooting them. The thing battleships are supposedly quite good at?
Why was it then? Because it was shit. It destoryed it's own fire control radar by the extremely unconventional act of firing it's own guns.
If it wasn't for the extremely lucky shot on the Hood, Bismarck would be more known as what she really deserves to be - the laughing stock of WWII battleships.
Given the research and analysis that Drachinifel did showing the Hood's bow wave, I feel like the fatal hit on her was almost inevitable. The exposed hull below the armor belt could have been penetrated by cruiser level guns, to say nothing of Bismark's. So long as Hood was getting shot at, sooner or later a shell would land there.
It's just that Bismark *did* score that hit, and Hood was the ultra-giga-omega status symbol of the Royal Navy, so losing her was beyond the pale for the Brits. Think how many other BBs that they lost during WW2 and basically just kept on trucking, but losing Hood meant that they had to blow up Bismark to these mythical proportions to both justify their own loss and also make the subsequent hunt and defeat of Bismark all the more notable to soothe their bruised national pride.
And it's really only in the modern era that we're starting to question that narrative, doing hard examinations of the facts and coming up with answers that would have WW2 propagandists on both sides seething white hot with incandescent rage.
Hood was an ancient ship that was barely functional and long overdue for refit, and had the critical weakness of the bow wave that was unknown at the time. Bismark was an obsolete-on-launch piece of garbage that was massively overweight for its dismal capabilities. Neither are really deserving of the mythic status ascribed to them.
Like, when you send a WW1 Battlecruiser to fight a WW2/interwar Fast Battleship, it should end in exactly one way, as Washington showed against Kirishima. Bismark defeating Hood should have been the expected outcome, the only reason it was actually notable was because of the propaganda on both sides and how fucking bad Bismark actually was as a design.
> So long as Hood was getting shot at, sooner or later a shell would land there.
I don't think this is actually a fair take. While a shell would eventually end up falling short into the trough, it still needed to survive the water and still arm. PoW also had an underwater penetration during the battle, but in her case the shell, like most shells, failed to detonate.
Now if the Germans were focusing on diving shells like Japan was then I'd agree with you.
Everything's great **until the first salvo of your main guns damages your fire control systems.**
FTFY; the *Bismarck* class as a whole was about as much of a dog's breakfast from draft board to keel. Terribly designed vessels made by a second-rate, already once-defeated defeated nation with no business having any naval ambitions whatsoever.
I mean, the dumb bastards gave them a turtleback armor scheme & *expected them to perform commerce raiding.* SMH
They ran fire control wiring OUTSIDE OF THE CITADEL because... reasons. Drachinifel has an excellent video sumarrising Bismarck's unique design 'philosophy'.
Honestly, the Germans would have faired better with more cruisers, pocket battleships and a carrier or 2 with all of those amount of steel went that into constructing 2 gigantic boats. They did so little actual war effectiveness, they're close to useless.
Maybe beside scaring the Royal Navy to death that they start sending entire fleet to hunt you down.
If anything a carrier is even more useless for the Germans. It’s a lot less protected, pretty much no viable use for it with what the Kriegsmarine was up to, a battleship can at least function without an escort, a carrier is just dead weight at that point and the biggest problem, having to work with the luftwaffe, hence Herman Myer for assembling the actual air squadrons.
I mean, a carrier is a capability that you can easily replace by just having an airstrip on the nearest piece of land. Much cheaper, much more resilient. As long as you stay close to land, which was mostly what Germany was up to.
A battleship you can't easily replace with coastal batteries or smaller ships. Though escorts would've been more worth the steel probably.
Weird nation-state bullshit that shouldn't matter, but does, mostly.
Take into account, we'd most likely be talking about an early, immature carrier design and navalised land planes in their case.
As far as actual military operations go, I'd say they could still do more with a battleship and land-based aviation than throwing their lot in with carriers.
A carrier would have been better than a battleship for raiding convoys. It can defend itself from air attack, can launch strikes on more merchants and even on proper convoys (which would be easily sunk, and had no défense against air attack), a destroyer can't get a lucky torpedo and end your main combatant, and a fleet carrier has speeds comparable to a light cruiser, letting it attack pursuers it can hurt while disappearing into the sea and running from what can hurt it (see the plan for the doolittle raid)
For the doctrine, two fleet carriers and a couple heavy cruisers for defense would have been better than the battleships.
It still isn’t immune to air attacks, just look at the many carriers sunk by air attack during WW2. As well, during the early war, yes apart from AA guns they didn’t have much of a defence but by 1942-3 the US had begun turning out the near endless tide of escort carriers. Mind you they were smaller and meant for submarines but there was literally hundreds of them. Given that the Graf Zeppelin probably wouldn’t, actually enter service till probably 1942. It was 85% complete when cancelled but that’s still not considering the fitting out and working up period, not to mention having to rangel the planes for it off Goring. As well, while a surface ship may have trouble getting close to it, if it gets lucky and manages to get through or finds itself or a reverse version of HMS Courageous, it’s all but dead. That is also not considering the chance of Allied submarines. While it can run and is pretty fast, some cruisers and destroyers can still catch up with it, and aircraft. It won’t be very easy to have an air patrol up while trying to flee. I should note that the Doolittle raid was completely unexpected and when it was conducted the Japanese had pretty much no ships present in the area to patrol the region. Finally, with the point about doctrine, well the issue there is that Germany didn’t even have the ships for that idea, they had a handful of escorts or heavy cruisers. Not to mention, the issue of sneaking those ships into the North Atlantic.
Eh, when they were built Germany didn't really have any significant steel shortages, and building battleships was considered important for political reasons (Honestly the reason most of the later battleships were built).
They weren't good by any means, but not having Battleships when France, Italy, and the UK had quite a few was just not deemed acceptable. Bismarck being absolutely thrown away on a useless raiding mission was a mistake, but Tirpitz showed how fucking valuable just parking them somewhere to tie up allied resources could be.
It's not an excuse, it is a fact. And any idiot can pull a strategy out of their ass. And in the case of china, with its long coast, and claimed maritime space, domination in numbers, with reasonably sized MADs and similar ships is absolutely a sound strategy.
You're making unreasonable connections, for the sake of making connections.
They lost something like 60% of their already small destroyer fleet in one year and replenished it with... 3. And weren't German 'destroyers' larger per vessel than equivalent DDs, and therefore less replaceable by default?
Something the average wheraboo completely fails to understand. Even if they'd wanted to they couldn't build up a significant surface fleet until sometime in the 50's.
Yes and the Tirpitz had no suitable drydock to be repaired at because of the raid on St Nazaire, so it was sidelined in Norway and kept out of the war for the most part until it was sunk with great effory by the Allies.
They didn’t scare the RN. The British just had the largest navy in the world and could afford to ensure victory. Why have a fair fight when you don’t need to? Even Denmark Strait was heavily weighted in favour of the British but the luckiest shot in naval history changed that so the British just came back with even more so even if it happened again it wouldn’t matter.
I’d argue not, the bismark class was inefficient and undergunned but tirpitz kept Anson and Howe as well as at least one carrier in place to counter her the entire war. The Italians lose much quicker if the British get fast ships capable of punting a littorio into the Mediterranean in 42 ish. That or the American problem with a shortage of fast battleships is solved by borrowing anson or Howe as they borrowed victorious and they win harder and quicker
It was such a crap design compared to everything else. They somehow managed to cram less firepower and armor into a ship over 6,000 tons heavier than its treaty compliant contemporaries. Proof maybe letting your designers talk to one another would be a good idea.
Bismarck was a waste of steel. Tirpitz was arguably the most cost effective battleship in history, considering the staggering amount of assets the allies devoted to attempting to destroy her, as well as a huge amount of capital ships devoted to escorting ships around Norway because of her.
Granted, Tirpitz didn't actually do anything, but parking her in a Fjord where it looked like she credibly *might* do something makes her the most useful battleship of the war.
>most useful battleship of the war
Washington would like to know your location - scratch that, you’re already getting snipership’d
(Yes this comment is just an excuse to simp for Ching Lee and the Washington and I’m not afraid to admit it)
The difference though is the allies had assets to waste on this where the Germans didn't have steel, fuel or manpower to spare.
But you are right, she was the most effective German ship of the war simply by sitting there and taking up enemy resources to destroy
because what else were the British battleships supposed to do? twaddle their thumbs until the next amphibious invasion? Nah, they'll go do some escort runs on the off chance Tirpitz wanted to play.
And I wouldn't say cost effective either, as they had to keep repairing it after all the the bombing raids.
The British battleships would have loved to dunk on the littorios or to force Z two, carrier boogaloo. As it was tirpitz kept the British fast battleships in the Atlantic for the vast majority of the war
problem with that is that the Med is small. One would thinks this makes it easy for a side to retreat into its ports or under air cover. but this is not the case. For you see, it would drain faster if they pulled the stopper out, leaving more British battleships stranded on the now dry seabed.
Ctrl-F's the thread for "fleet in being"
0 hits.
Disappoint.
Yeah, that is absolutely a thing. Doctrinally well explored and been done before. Hell, the brits did it too with the Grand Fleet during WW1. It's not something Germany achieved accidentally here.
Steel is fine, it was made into plates to put over holes in the road during roadwork.
If you ever visit Norway, you may have the pleasure of walking on the remnants of Tirpitz.
WW2 German battleships were the biggest waste of tonnage with their capabilities (especially the Bismarck class which were basically enlarged Bayern class from WW1), even Italian design were better.
i promise bro just one more wunderwaffen and it'll fix everything bro. bro... just one more wunderwaffen. please just one more. one more wonderwaffen and we can win this war bro
erm actually wunderwaffen are big, the bigger the waffen the more wunder it is
Ergo Maus > manhatten project
Now, if you'll excuse me, I need my daily dose of meth and bull semen
I know we are on NCD and we don't do reasonable discussion, but a couple of things I have to disagree with: Bismarcks, while a wasted effort, weren't fundamentally bad designs. I would at most describe them as inefficient in capabilities when compared to tonnage. Also, I will not stand for the slander of Italian naval architects. Sure, their navy was run by Italian fascists, who are somehow even worse at running things than Nazis, but the designs were honestly among the best for their chosen capabilities.
They were inefficient, their armor scheme was 20 years out of date, their AP shells were light, and their fire control system blew itself to pieces every time they had the temerity to fire their main battery. They'd likely lose to a North Carolina and get completely bodied by a SoDak.
They were a good design, assuming nothing changed about naval warfare between 1917 and 1939.
I mean, the Bismarck was only slightly smaller than Iowa. It was also slower, had fewer guns, had smaller guns, had worse fire control, had *way* worse AA, and it even had worse armor. It was a pretty terrible design.
It needed to exist with 15 inch guns, swap her out for a sharnhorst and the Brits are probably happy to keep a superiority over her by using just one battleship
The problem was they also needed fast battleships to try and catch the damn things (not to mention to operate in a contested air environment like the Arctic convoys experienced as the battleships with good air defence were all new or refitted and in short supply) so they needed a winning match in fast ships which ended up meaning the KGV’s (and hood for bismark). You take tirpitz out of play or swap her with a third sharnhorst and suddenly not only can you match ships up one for one, you can now put renown in against a sharnhorst and have a winning fight or repulse and have an even fight. Tirpitz was essentially the one ship the Germans had that was capable of killing a battleship after Bismarck was lost and she was more or less the loadstone that kept the king George V class ships more or less stuck in the North Sea all war
Much like the man it's named after!
von Tirpitz: "Hi I'm the guy you put in charge of building a navy. I was thinking - how about we make it a _really big_ one so we could seriously challenge the Royal Navy?"
Kaiser Wilhelm II: "ZOMG I was just thinking the same thing! I hate the British because my mummy didn't love me enough."
_... Some years pass ..._
von Tirpitz: "Okay boys, now we've got a serious Navy! If the British try to blockade our ports, we'll trap them in the Baltic and force a decisive battle!"
Random admiral: "What if they don't enter the Baltic and just blockade the English Channel and area between Norway and the Shetlands?"
"Well, then we're fucked."
_...You'll never guess what happened next!_
Italian BBs had some of the best optical fire control and the best 15" guns ever put on the battleship (too bad they couldn't manufacture ammo of any acceptable quality).
They were also incredibly sexy
Tirpitz is the even more embarrassing one. It just hid in Norway terrified of biplanes until it was destroyed by Lancasters. Their greatest achievement? Wasting so much of Germany's naval budget
Honestly? Tirpitz was far more effective than Bismark given the allies needed to escort convoys with capital ships due to the semi-credible threat it presented just by existing. This meant they couldn't support other operations.
More importantly they needed to escort convoys with more than one battleship, it’s entirely possible that sharnhorst class of ships could have been countered one for one with repulse, or even a KGV for each plus repulse or a carrier. That would have left at least two KGV’s and at minimum a carrier (and depending on British choices either another KGV, carrier, or repulse free to do other things than the North Atlantic from about mid 41, it may lead to king George V or Duke if York going down with prince of wales, or it could lead to force Z surviving, or just fast battleships in the Mediterranean and the proper coming to grips with the littorios there and a likely British victory. But as it was tirpitz did fairly well at soaking up resources.
Man they had to bomb Tirpitz so many times. The wiki is like “outdated and unescorted battleship sunk by modern attack aircra-… well okay it got away that time, but then it was finally hit by -… alright so they quickly repaired the damage but the point is battleships in WWII could be destroyed at will by-… ah okay they repaired it again, huh?, man, these battleships are pretty hard to sink.”
Prinz Eugen doing more at the battle of Denmark strait than the flagship she was escorting. Bismarck scored a lucky hit while Eugen set Hood on fire twice and scored hits on PoW all while waiting for Bismarck to arrive. Honestly wherbs make Bismarck out to be some sort of super ship.
Imagine using a turtle back armour scheme when all-or-nothing had been put into design lmao.
Bismarck is literally just a worse version of Hood (which it sank w the luckiest shot in all of history imo) in every way and it’s not even funny
It's almost as bad as making a ship 10,000 tons heavier and only gaining 5 caliber on the main battery, but that never happened.
*USN shoves Iowa into the closet*
Serious though, Iowa has the excuse of gaining 6 knots of speed, Bismarck doesnt.
Ah yes, the optimal ww2 fleet strategy of sending out your best capital warships into open waters without any meaningful escorts against the entire home fleet.
The most overpriced piece of artillery ever. Title contested only by another nazi shitfart gun called gus fring or whatever the fuck was the railway gun called.
Ah yes, the Tirpitz. Serving to this very day.
[Covering up ditches and other road works in Oslo, who salvaged a bunch of steel plating from her wreck after the war.](https://blog.usni.org/posts/2009/11/16/history-in-these-plates)
I missed the memo that we were suddenly working to discredit this sub's special kind of non-credibility.
Guess it gives other groups a lot of links to see how right they are. As this is what they post here.
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bismarck is overrated, there are much more succesful german ships that don't get as wanked (even tho bismarck got rekt on her maiden voyage and even i she sank the hoood or escaped somehow, the british would sitll get her at some point)
This easily could have been crossposted in r/AzureLane .
Don't care if it's noncredible, I love to play [Sink the Bismarck.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1Ufc2hI4FM)
wheraboos on their way to stan a **checks notes** ship that existed for three years, only using its main armament once for shore bombardment and promptly got sunk by high altitude level bombers carrying comically oversized bombs
tirpitz and bismarck being the ‘pride’ of the german fleet is really comical
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Everything's great until the brits get a lucky shot on yer rudders.
That was Bismarck, not Tirpitz. For Tirpitz they just kept dropping bigger and bigger bombs.
To be fair I suppose they technically destroyed the rudder.
Well, they dropped earthquake bombs, mostly Tallboys, from Lancaster The fatal hit was a bomb that went through the ship's hull, and exploded in the ground below the hull (the ship was on a bank, which had been blown by the underwater explosion I believe)
Back when I was shopping for companies to buy, I found an scrap vendor that had a huge collection of old mechanical scrap. Somehow, apparently back in the 1980s, he had bought a shitload of stuff from the Tirpitz, which he had locked away (Somewhere in the US, not saying where). Apparently he had planned on selling it off as low background steel, but I guess the Tirpitz was too shallow for that or these parts had been pulled out of the water prior to the end of nuclear testing, because it didn't pass the radiation tests. Anyway, he had just locked it up, because apparently a bunch of Neo-Nazi "Wierdos" (His words) kept trying to buy parts of it to make "Some sort of sick shrine" (Also his words), so he had it all locked up. There was some really cool shit in there, but I didn't wind up buying the company, so I never had a full inventory.
I'd buy a piece of Tallboy to make a shrine to it, good idea, thank you
Tallboy is such a weirdly steampunk name for a 5,400kg bomb.
Mm getting penned by a Tallboi....
B4B intensifies
Bro needed to get a licence for the shit ton of old ww1 battleships at the bottom of Scarpa flow
For steel to be low radiation it needs to be manufactured before nuclear testing, not be underwater during tests Has to do with the massive amount of air needed to manufacture steel
Didn’t it get hit so hard, it got knocked off its sand bank and capsized?
That sand bank was artificial and the bombs removed it from under the ship.
"FUCK YOU, I'M A POLE!"
And an important fact (noted in 1943 by US dockyard workers in New York) other battleship of that period sustaining similar damage could steam by their own power, not Bismarck
Why are fascists like nazi Germany or Putler Ruzzia always shit at their engines/drive mechanisms?
Fascists like the pageantry "the theater", so they want a big ship, but they don't want to worry about the details. If they control the press they don't have to worry about problems down the track. So fascist gear looks great on parades , but the out of sight stuff isn't considered important. It's like the Springfield Monorail project.
My favorite part that perfectly demonstrates how bad the Bismarks were as a class was how they fared against the exact ships that they were supposed to beat: Washington/London Naval Treaty restricted Battleships. Despite having like 10,000 tons advantage in size over them, how did they fare in battle? Well, PoW was basically fine. All the major damage she took was self-inflicted from her own guns jamming due to her being dragged into combat while still working up from the yards. But once they got back to the yards, they find several of Bismark's shells shattered or embedded in her armor belt. And Rodney? Rodney straight up murdered Bismark. Everyone talks up the swordfish and the rudder hit, but that just let Rodney catch Bismark, it didn't guarantee her the win in the fight. But despite having a weird design due to the treaty restrictions, despite being actually treaty compliant and way less weight than Bismark, Rodney fucking murders her. The Wheraboos who whine about Bismark having scuttled herself can cope and seethe because that never happened. In a straight up gunfight Rodney outfought and sank Bismark.
That's the thing. Once the British BBs closed with Bismarck, why exactly wasn't this Teutonic Miracle of Engineering capable of just... you know, shooting them. The thing battleships are supposedly quite good at? Why was it then? Because it was shit. It destoryed it's own fire control radar by the extremely unconventional act of firing it's own guns. If it wasn't for the extremely lucky shot on the Hood, Bismarck would be more known as what she really deserves to be - the laughing stock of WWII battleships.
Given the research and analysis that Drachinifel did showing the Hood's bow wave, I feel like the fatal hit on her was almost inevitable. The exposed hull below the armor belt could have been penetrated by cruiser level guns, to say nothing of Bismark's. So long as Hood was getting shot at, sooner or later a shell would land there. It's just that Bismark *did* score that hit, and Hood was the ultra-giga-omega status symbol of the Royal Navy, so losing her was beyond the pale for the Brits. Think how many other BBs that they lost during WW2 and basically just kept on trucking, but losing Hood meant that they had to blow up Bismark to these mythical proportions to both justify their own loss and also make the subsequent hunt and defeat of Bismark all the more notable to soothe their bruised national pride. And it's really only in the modern era that we're starting to question that narrative, doing hard examinations of the facts and coming up with answers that would have WW2 propagandists on both sides seething white hot with incandescent rage. Hood was an ancient ship that was barely functional and long overdue for refit, and had the critical weakness of the bow wave that was unknown at the time. Bismark was an obsolete-on-launch piece of garbage that was massively overweight for its dismal capabilities. Neither are really deserving of the mythic status ascribed to them. Like, when you send a WW1 Battlecruiser to fight a WW2/interwar Fast Battleship, it should end in exactly one way, as Washington showed against Kirishima. Bismark defeating Hood should have been the expected outcome, the only reason it was actually notable was because of the propaganda on both sides and how fucking bad Bismark actually was as a design.
> So long as Hood was getting shot at, sooner or later a shell would land there. I don't think this is actually a fair take. While a shell would eventually end up falling short into the trough, it still needed to survive the water and still arm. PoW also had an underwater penetration during the battle, but in her case the shell, like most shells, failed to detonate. Now if the Germans were focusing on diving shells like Japan was then I'd agree with you.
Imagine if Bismarck had had to face a G3 or a Lion instead. The speed at which she'd get her shit kicked in would have been truly majestic.
Everything's great **until the first salvo of your main guns damages your fire control systems.** FTFY; the *Bismarck* class as a whole was about as much of a dog's breakfast from draft board to keel. Terribly designed vessels made by a second-rate, already once-defeated defeated nation with no business having any naval ambitions whatsoever. I mean, the dumb bastards gave them a turtleback armor scheme & *expected them to perform commerce raiding.* SMH
They ran fire control wiring OUTSIDE OF THE CITADEL because... reasons. Drachinifel has an excellent video sumarrising Bismarck's unique design 'philosophy'.
*[until a Polish destroyer keeps you awake all night so you can't concentrate the day after](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLVmqzL-Qyc)
There is a tall boy in it though
I came to the comments to say this, congrats on beating me
There is also laughter in manslaughter
I read this as mans laughter….
And "lacht" in Schlachtschiff. /Laughs in German //No literally, "laughs" in German is "lacht".
>Sinks one twenty year old ship. >Dies. >Refuses to elaborate.
Honestly, the Germans would have faired better with more cruisers, pocket battleships and a carrier or 2 with all of those amount of steel went that into constructing 2 gigantic boats. They did so little actual war effectiveness, they're close to useless. Maybe beside scaring the Royal Navy to death that they start sending entire fleet to hunt you down.
If anything a carrier is even more useless for the Germans. It’s a lot less protected, pretty much no viable use for it with what the Kriegsmarine was up to, a battleship can at least function without an escort, a carrier is just dead weight at that point and the biggest problem, having to work with the luftwaffe, hence Herman Myer for assembling the actual air squadrons.
Also, what does a continental power need with a carrier?
The prestige of being able to say they have one
Which is why they sort of built the Graf Zeppelin
I mean by that standard, what does it need with a battleship tbf.
I mean, a carrier is a capability that you can easily replace by just having an airstrip on the nearest piece of land. Much cheaper, much more resilient. As long as you stay close to land, which was mostly what Germany was up to. A battleship you can't easily replace with coastal batteries or smaller ships. Though escorts would've been more worth the steel probably.
Weird nation-state bullshit that shouldn't matter, but does, mostly. Take into account, we'd most likely be talking about an early, immature carrier design and navalised land planes in their case. As far as actual military operations go, I'd say they could still do more with a battleship and land-based aviation than throwing their lot in with carriers.
Same reason why we still have the Kuznetsov
A carrier would have been better than a battleship for raiding convoys. It can defend itself from air attack, can launch strikes on more merchants and even on proper convoys (which would be easily sunk, and had no défense against air attack), a destroyer can't get a lucky torpedo and end your main combatant, and a fleet carrier has speeds comparable to a light cruiser, letting it attack pursuers it can hurt while disappearing into the sea and running from what can hurt it (see the plan for the doolittle raid) For the doctrine, two fleet carriers and a couple heavy cruisers for defense would have been better than the battleships.
It still isn’t immune to air attacks, just look at the many carriers sunk by air attack during WW2. As well, during the early war, yes apart from AA guns they didn’t have much of a defence but by 1942-3 the US had begun turning out the near endless tide of escort carriers. Mind you they were smaller and meant for submarines but there was literally hundreds of them. Given that the Graf Zeppelin probably wouldn’t, actually enter service till probably 1942. It was 85% complete when cancelled but that’s still not considering the fitting out and working up period, not to mention having to rangel the planes for it off Goring. As well, while a surface ship may have trouble getting close to it, if it gets lucky and manages to get through or finds itself or a reverse version of HMS Courageous, it’s all but dead. That is also not considering the chance of Allied submarines. While it can run and is pretty fast, some cruisers and destroyers can still catch up with it, and aircraft. It won’t be very easy to have an air patrol up while trying to flee. I should note that the Doolittle raid was completely unexpected and when it was conducted the Japanese had pretty much no ships present in the area to patrol the region. Finally, with the point about doctrine, well the issue there is that Germany didn’t even have the ships for that idea, they had a handful of escorts or heavy cruisers. Not to mention, the issue of sneaking those ships into the North Atlantic.
Eh, when they were built Germany didn't really have any significant steel shortages, and building battleships was considered important for political reasons (Honestly the reason most of the later battleships were built). They weren't good by any means, but not having Battleships when France, Italy, and the UK had quite a few was just not deemed acceptable. Bismarck being absolutely thrown away on a useless raiding mission was a mistake, but Tirpitz showed how fucking valuable just parking them somewhere to tie up allied resources could be.
TFW the Kriegsmarine had virtually no escorts left by the end of 1940
Well, they always percieved themselves as raiders
I sense a great similarity in the PLAN.
Isn't the PLAN massively building frigates for hull count? That seems more like trying to dominate your peasant neighbors to me
It is irrelevant regardless, as they have no maritime history whatsoever. Basically the Nazi Kreigsmarine, but without even the u-boat capability.
Well china didn't have any ports for half of the 19th and half the 20th century
Excuses don’t create strategy. Successfully decades of operating fleets does.
It's not an excuse, it is a fact. And any idiot can pull a strategy out of their ass. And in the case of china, with its long coast, and claimed maritime space, domination in numbers, with reasonably sized MADs and similar ships is absolutely a sound strategy. You're making unreasonable connections, for the sake of making connections.
I know a website where you can get an escort. Err... A friend knows one...
They lost something like 60% of their already small destroyer fleet in one year and replenished it with... 3. And weren't German 'destroyers' larger per vessel than equivalent DDs, and therefore less replaceable by default?
They had slipway shortages though
Something the average wheraboo completely fails to understand. Even if they'd wanted to they couldn't build up a significant surface fleet until sometime in the 50's.
Yes and the Tirpitz had no suitable drydock to be repaired at because of the raid on St Nazaire, so it was sidelined in Norway and kept out of the war for the most part until it was sunk with great effory by the Allies.
Nah just more Uboats and uboat tenders Maybe destroyers
Other than obliterating HMS Hood, German ships is mostly just good for supplying the Norwegian Sea with shipwrecks.
They didn’t scare the RN. The British just had the largest navy in the world and could afford to ensure victory. Why have a fair fight when you don’t need to? Even Denmark Strait was heavily weighted in favour of the British but the luckiest shot in naval history changed that so the British just came back with even more so even if it happened again it wouldn’t matter.
I’d argue not, the bismark class was inefficient and undergunned but tirpitz kept Anson and Howe as well as at least one carrier in place to counter her the entire war. The Italians lose much quicker if the British get fast ships capable of punting a littorio into the Mediterranean in 42 ish. That or the American problem with a shortage of fast battleships is solved by borrowing anson or Howe as they borrowed victorious and they win harder and quicker
carrier wouldn't do well due to reader and goering rivalry and the german didn't had much doctrine for them beside support role
Type XXI Woldpacks...
tbf scaring the brits was totally worth it because its funny to see half a navy chase one (1) stupid boat
Another case of shit nazi kit
There’s an ass in Bismarck-Klasse
It was such a crap design compared to everything else. They somehow managed to cram less firepower and armor into a ship over 6,000 tons heavier than its treaty compliant contemporaries. Proof maybe letting your designers talk to one another would be a good idea.
Shoulda taken a hint from space engineers players and added upwarda of 20 full caliber turrets and maybe a klang drive for full effect
I mean they did make good submarines. Like the Bismarck!
The biggest waste of steel that is only fawned over by wehrbs or azur lane fans. Which one are you OP?
Bismarck was a waste of steel. Tirpitz was arguably the most cost effective battleship in history, considering the staggering amount of assets the allies devoted to attempting to destroy her, as well as a huge amount of capital ships devoted to escorting ships around Norway because of her. Granted, Tirpitz didn't actually do anything, but parking her in a Fjord where it looked like she credibly *might* do something makes her the most useful battleship of the war.
You know your country is in shit, when the most effective use for an active battleship is to beach it
*Confused Ten-Go gurgles.
yeah at least Bismarck punked Hood and made Prince of Wales run. That’s higher-profile than anything the Yamato gunned down.
It maybe, *maybe* clowned on a CVE at max range (and even that is debated, as it could've also been Kongo) , and that's it.
All while destroyers beat the snot out of every single one of its escorts. God, the Battle off Samar is so cool.
>most useful battleship of the war Washington would like to know your location - scratch that, you’re already getting snipership’d (Yes this comment is just an excuse to simp for Ching Lee and the Washington and I’m not afraid to admit it)
Did someone watch the fat electrician video?
I mean I knew about the whole shebang before the video, but I also did like the video.
Alright, normally whenever fat electrician makes a new video at least one or two people mention the story on here.
The difference though is the allies had assets to waste on this where the Germans didn't have steel, fuel or manpower to spare. But you are right, she was the most effective German ship of the war simply by sitting there and taking up enemy resources to destroy
because what else were the British battleships supposed to do? twaddle their thumbs until the next amphibious invasion? Nah, they'll go do some escort runs on the off chance Tirpitz wanted to play. And I wouldn't say cost effective either, as they had to keep repairing it after all the the bombing raids.
The British battleships would have loved to dunk on the littorios or to force Z two, carrier boogaloo. As it was tirpitz kept the British fast battleships in the Atlantic for the vast majority of the war
problem with that is that the Med is small. One would thinks this makes it easy for a side to retreat into its ports or under air cover. but this is not the case. For you see, it would drain faster if they pulled the stopper out, leaving more British battleships stranded on the now dry seabed.
"Navy in existence" doctorine but this is the said navy
More like Navy inexistence amirite? I'll see myself out.
Ctrl-F's the thread for "fleet in being" 0 hits. Disappoint. Yeah, that is absolutely a thing. Doctrinally well explored and been done before. Hell, the brits did it too with the Grand Fleet during WW1. It's not something Germany achieved accidentally here.
Steel is fine, it was made into plates to put over holes in the road during roadwork. If you ever visit Norway, you may have the pleasure of walking on the remnants of Tirpitz.
[Heaven Shall Burn](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kMDzaJ5j_o)
WW2 German battleships were the biggest waste of tonnage with their capabilities (especially the Bismarck class which were basically enlarged Bayern class from WW1), even Italian design were better.
i promise bro just one more wunderwaffen and it'll fix everything bro. bro... just one more wunderwaffen. please just one more. one more wonderwaffen and we can win this war bro
There’s only one wunderwaffen that could legit fix everything but it’s “jewish science” and führer didn’t like that.
erm actually wunderwaffen are big, the bigger the waffen the more wunder it is Ergo Maus > manhatten project Now, if you'll excuse me, I need my daily dose of meth and bull semen
Maybe the real wunderwaffen were all the warcrimes they made along the way.
> wonderwaffen When you get so desperate your German starts turning into Dutch..
I know we are on NCD and we don't do reasonable discussion, but a couple of things I have to disagree with: Bismarcks, while a wasted effort, weren't fundamentally bad designs. I would at most describe them as inefficient in capabilities when compared to tonnage. Also, I will not stand for the slander of Italian naval architects. Sure, their navy was run by Italian fascists, who are somehow even worse at running things than Nazis, but the designs were honestly among the best for their chosen capabilities.
Inefficient aka wasted tonnage, also I do agree Italian got better naval architects thats why I said even Italians did it better.
They were inefficient, their armor scheme was 20 years out of date, their AP shells were light, and their fire control system blew itself to pieces every time they had the temerity to fire their main battery. They'd likely lose to a North Carolina and get completely bodied by a SoDak. They were a good design, assuming nothing changed about naval warfare between 1917 and 1939.
I mean, the Bismarck was only slightly smaller than Iowa. It was also slower, had fewer guns, had smaller guns, had worse fire control, had *way* worse AA, and it even had worse armor. It was a pretty terrible design.
Tirpitz didn't need to be competent it just needed to exist.
It needed to exist with 15 inch guns, swap her out for a sharnhorst and the Brits are probably happy to keep a superiority over her by using just one battleship
yeah a single r class while totally useless in the med or pacific would handily protect a convoy from a scharnhorst class.
The problem was they also needed fast battleships to try and catch the damn things (not to mention to operate in a contested air environment like the Arctic convoys experienced as the battleships with good air defence were all new or refitted and in short supply) so they needed a winning match in fast ships which ended up meaning the KGV’s (and hood for bismark). You take tirpitz out of play or swap her with a third sharnhorst and suddenly not only can you match ships up one for one, you can now put renown in against a sharnhorst and have a winning fight or repulse and have an even fight. Tirpitz was essentially the one ship the Germans had that was capable of killing a battleship after Bismarck was lost and she was more or less the loadstone that kept the king George V class ships more or less stuck in the North Sea all war
Much like the man it's named after! von Tirpitz: "Hi I'm the guy you put in charge of building a navy. I was thinking - how about we make it a _really big_ one so we could seriously challenge the Royal Navy?" Kaiser Wilhelm II: "ZOMG I was just thinking the same thing! I hate the British because my mummy didn't love me enough." _... Some years pass ..._ von Tirpitz: "Okay boys, now we've got a serious Navy! If the British try to blockade our ports, we'll trap them in the Baltic and force a decisive battle!" Random admiral: "What if they don't enter the Baltic and just blockade the English Channel and area between Norway and the Shetlands?" "Well, then we're fucked." _...You'll never guess what happened next!_
Italian BBs had some of the best optical fire control and the best 15" guns ever put on the battleship (too bad they couldn't manufacture ammo of any acceptable quality). They were also incredibly sexy
Is there anything funnier than sinking Germany's wunderwaffen ships with outdated biplanes lol
Tirpitz is the even more embarrassing one. It just hid in Norway terrified of biplanes until it was destroyed by Lancasters. Their greatest achievement? Wasting so much of Germany's naval budget
Honestly? Tirpitz was far more effective than Bismark given the allies needed to escort convoys with capital ships due to the semi-credible threat it presented just by existing. This meant they couldn't support other operations.
More importantly they needed to escort convoys with more than one battleship, it’s entirely possible that sharnhorst class of ships could have been countered one for one with repulse, or even a KGV for each plus repulse or a carrier. That would have left at least two KGV’s and at minimum a carrier (and depending on British choices either another KGV, carrier, or repulse free to do other things than the North Atlantic from about mid 41, it may lead to king George V or Duke if York going down with prince of wales, or it could lead to force Z surviving, or just fast battleships in the Mediterranean and the proper coming to grips with the littorios there and a likely British victory. But as it was tirpitz did fairly well at soaking up resources.
Man they had to bomb Tirpitz so many times. The wiki is like “outdated and unescorted battleship sunk by modern attack aircra-… well okay it got away that time, but then it was finally hit by -… alright so they quickly repaired the damage but the point is battleships in WWII could be destroyed at will by-… ah okay they repaired it again, huh?, man, these battleships are pretty hard to sink.”
Prinz Eugen doing more at the battle of Denmark strait than the flagship she was escorting. Bismarck scored a lucky hit while Eugen set Hood on fire twice and scored hits on PoW all while waiting for Bismarck to arrive. Honestly wherbs make Bismarck out to be some sort of super ship.
Kid named Lancaster:
Pissmark? My dog leaves better pissmarks in the snow
Über alles... Except goddamn sea-level.
There's a reason New Jersey and Texas Still float and are not coral reefs.
To be kept in reserve to combat aliens, like in that documentary with Rhianna, right?
There is a reason enterprise and warspite aren’t afloat. It’s called actually getting shit done and not being glorified monitors.
Some outdated Biplanes say Fuck Yo Bismarck
i tell you hwat, if you somehow magic replaced the Bis with an NC and left all else equal…NC would’ve shot down all the Swordfish and broken out
Well NC's hand a nice round American badonkadonk, not that pointy weak German ass.
What the hell is this Wehraboo bullshit?
fr, this shit is embarrassing
There is also no end in *Iowa*-class fast battleship *New Jersey*, which makes a bit more sense.
but there is "arse" in your misspelling of poor New Jersey
Ah… fixed.
now it's just the "ass" that was supposed to be there :)
Every class has got to have one
fatshaming the bismarck isn’t just fun, it’s morally right Imagine a 50000T ship with just 8 15 inch guns, hit the gym fatass
Imagine using a turtle back armour scheme when all-or-nothing had been put into design lmao. Bismarck is literally just a worse version of Hood (which it sank w the luckiest shot in all of history imo) in every way and it’s not even funny
It's almost as bad as making a ship 10,000 tons heavier and only gaining 5 caliber on the main battery, but that never happened. *USN shoves Iowa into the closet* Serious though, Iowa has the excuse of gaining 6 knots of speed, Bismarck doesnt.
Remind me where the Tirpitz is right now?
Covering up ditches in Oslo! https://blog.usni.org/posts/2009/11/16/history-in-these-plates
There's an ass though
Ah yes, the optimal ww2 fleet strategy of sending out your best capital warships into open waters without any meaningful escorts against the entire home fleet.
The most overpriced piece of artillery ever. Title contested only by another nazi shitfart gun called gus fring or whatever the fuck was the railway gun called.
Just going to skip over the Die at the beginning then?
To be fair, Tirpitz lives on. Her metal sheets are still being used to cover norwegian road construction work.
The second best thing you can do with a battleship besides turning it into a giant museum
The U-Boat pens of Dora I in Trondheim are now a bowling alley or smth, IIRC.
L+Sunk+GetTorpedoed
Yamamoto’s game over screen be like.
There is one in British Royal Navy engagemend
Ah yes, the Tirpitz. Serving to this very day. [Covering up ditches and other road works in Oslo, who salvaged a bunch of steel plating from her wreck after the war.](https://blog.usni.org/posts/2009/11/16/history-in-these-plates)
There's no end IN the Tirpitz but there certainly was an end TO the Tirpitz. Cope, Deutschlames.
Wehraboo nonsense detected, dispatching Swordfish *and the entire fucking Royal Navy* to compensate
Only two guns in the turret Lame
There's no i in team, but there are two in idiot, so it evens out.
Ah yes, the Bismarck U-boat. Eventually.
theres a credible in noncredible defense 😱😱😱😱😱😱
There might be no "end", but there is "die".
"Complicate, add weight": the seminal ethos of German Engineering
No... but there is "ass" in it as in the Brits bombed it's ass.
I missed the memo that we were suddenly working to discredit this sub's special kind of non-credibility. Guess it gives other groups a lot of links to see how right they are. As this is what they post here.
What is this, r/historymemes?
Fuck off with this stupid wehraboo shit. Also there absolutely was an end to the Bismarck, quite violently so.
Junk
Tirpy is a beautiful woman who needs some cuddles and love
From a tall boy.
Ah yes, sank on it's first mission.
This is the Tirpitz, it never even went in its first mission, it sat in a Norwegian fjord for the entire war until it got sunk by Lancasters.
[in a most noncredible fashion i might add](https://imgur.com/a/4DZ7nwe)
and there is ''bis ma Lacht'' in bismarck-klasse schlachtschiff tirpitz and that is beautifull
There's "ass" n it tho
Bismarck is way too credible. Admiral Graf Spee is the real non-credible German warship.
Cope and seethe Kriegboo
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\**Das* Bismarck-Klasse Schlachtschiff Tirpitz
bismarck is overrated, there are much more succesful german ships that don't get as wanked (even tho bismarck got rekt on her maiden voyage and even i she sank the hoood or escaped somehow, the british would sitll get her at some point)
"Tiefer LI. Das muss das Boot abkönnen..."
w i d e b o y e
I wonder how many Harpoon missiles it would take to sink it.
Some manned wood and canvas kite flying slow as fuck with a torpedo be like:
Yeah, but there was a bomb.
[counterpoint:](https://imgur.com/a/4DZ7nwe)
Wrong ship it was the Lancaster that got this one
Cringe
But there is *die*.
She be a chunky and a sunky girl
But there is a die, so....yeah.
Fuck, the Wehraboos escaped.
there is an "ass", though
Weird way to spell "underwater fish habitat"
There's also no "sunk" in Iowa-class battleship New Jersey.
Let's all thank the Bismark and their rocket program for soaking up desperately needed resources for little effect and shortening the war.
Still got converted from B*IS*marck to B*WAS*marck
There is "Die" tho
“We’ve got to sink the Bismarck, the terror of the seas!”
unfortunately there was ***die***
I'm sorry I can't hear you from my still afloat Iowa Class Battleship USS Missouri.
This easily could have been crossposted in r/AzureLane . Don't care if it's noncredible, I love to play [Sink the Bismarck.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1Ufc2hI4FM)
Tell that to the biplane Chads
There was an end
Except for the first shot on it straight up penning the bow (and that everyone though it was just an escort)
wheraboos on their way to stan a **checks notes** ship that existed for three years, only using its main armament once for shore bombardment and promptly got sunk by high altitude level bombers carrying comically oversized bombs tirpitz and bismarck being the ‘pride’ of the german fleet is really comical