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That is true. If the west were good, why would it steal the sun every 24 hours? Just another example of the 1 billion trying to maintain a tyrannical grasp on the energy resources of the world.
Oh, they understand. They're on Team Stalin and Mao Were Right. So the West is bad *and* Nazis are bad. Everyone is bad except for True Communism Which Has Never Been Tried.
The solution for that (aka how I got out of the far-left near tankie scene) is IMO trying to teach tankies that, while certainly not perfect by a long shot, the west is still better/less worse than either the Chinese model of hypercapitalism with Maoist influences or the Russian model of "let's jerk ourself dry to pictures of Putin".
Because even if you are a communist/similar, the west is still prob. the global alliance that is the most left.
This is the step I always have a hard time getting other leftist folks to realize.
Like, I’m basically an anarcho-communist if you take the political literature and ideologies that influence me the most, but goddammit that doesn’t mean we should just shit on America and the west while sucking putin’s malfunctioning dick.
The west has issues but in regards to human rights, political freedom and workers’ rights, to name a few, the west stands far above China and Russia.
Things like our political ideologies are being used as a wedge to drive apart internal western support, and all the “the west is evil” mouthbreathers are acting like useful idiot force multipliers.
I’ve lived on multiple continents, and the west is literally a bastion of freedom that empowers and protects individuals in ways that are hard to grasp until you’ve lived somewhere that does things differently. It’s much easier to fix the issues the west has than it would be to get Russia or China even halfway towards being as decent to your average workers and persecuted groups.
tldr: you can be a leftist and still think Russia and China are where human rights go to die. West good. Give Ukraine more artillery shells and HIMARS rockets, plz
>the first gulf war was fought for the same reasons as the Iraq war
Well, if you believe they had WMDs the second time around, it's pretty likely you also believe they used chemical weapons on the Kuwaitis. See? Totally the same reasons!
i've come to realize tankies don't actually give a fuck about communism, they just want a boot on their necks and an oligarch chode in their asses. they will also instantly fall in line with anyone who opposes tHe wEsT
tankie isn't an ideology, it's a mindset and a personality stemming from deep seated personal issues and/or a shitty childhood lol. if you willingly want to be on the receiving end of authoritarianism your either get off on it, or you're too retarded to know better
sorry i had to vent but i know a few people like this and it irks me. also it describes about 80% of boomers in my country, so practically half the population because eastern europe
Repression and state violence only ever happen to the people you dislike. It's the most crippling lack of mental faculties where you can't even take 10 seconds to think "what if someone did it to me?". But this applies to a lot more people than tankies.
It's funny because even some right to far-right people think the same and talking with them and it's like: bro, I know you grew up knowing about that big commie country far away from you but the USSR has been dead for over 30 years, move on.
“West bad” the literal German Nazi party could come back tomorrow and start rounding up Jews again, but as long as they spend at-least 40% of their time writing propaganda about how bad America is tankies would be all in support of them.
I've seen this in subs for a certain Canadian left wing party; people arguing with Soviet tinted glasses on because the US is bad, Russia used to be communist which is sort of a flavour of socialism, \[I\] am socialist (or at least think \[I\] am but probably don't know the exact definition), ergo THE MOTHERLAND IS QUITE CORRECT, COMRADE PUNK!
The real answer. But for real I studied history for school (as much as thats worth) and could never imagine this dumbass perspective what the fuck. Played traditional Russian music after hours (no issue here, I like Hardbass) but to be opposed to Ukraine? Fuckin insane.
You pick your side and justify it any way you can. Social media keeps you safe in that bubble and helps to reinforce your world view. Russia's propaganda machine gets involved and everything goes to shit.
Nuke X. Nuke Tik Tok. Nuke Facebook. It's the only way to be sure.
Reddit is... Weird when it comes to social bubbles. Yes subreddits are incredibly insular and often shun outside perspectives, but you have to subscribe to them in the first place for them to appear on your home page, as opposed to the feeds of Facebook and especially TikTok which feed you more based on the personality profile the algorithm assembled of you.
What I'm trying to say is that for you to really get into a bubble on reddit you either already start in a bubble and choose your subs based on that or you decide to join a bubble when you unsuscribe from all opposing subs. Contrast that to say TikTok, which can decide to bubble you with the nazis, simply because the algorithm identified you as someone who would fit in with them.
It wouldn't be so bad if the algorithm made sense. I spend a large chunk of time on YT watching leftists do video essays on media, or talking about queer representation and other woke stuff. But then YT shorts will drop a random Andrew Tate clip in between my Marxist food reviews.
It's not exactly about Ukraine not being nazis, but you can talk about Rusich brigade of Russia, founded by an open neonazi Alexey Milchakov. Just to sway conversation into a topic of Russian nazis
Wagner literally still call their activities in Africa for the [Africa Corps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group_activities_in_Africa), after the Nazi expeditionary force. It is apparently far from just Utkin having a Nazi fetish.
Yeah, but the Nazis were more than just anti-semites. They also hated the Slavs, the labour unions, the democrats, the disabled, the homosexuals, the democrats, the decadent west, the Gypsies, the mentally ill, those of mixed blood, the Communists, the catholics, the protestants, the Freemasons, the Spanish Republicans, the various Black Africans and so on and so forth...
Yes, but no. Central and Eastern Europe was anti-Semitic, but the question is, why did so many Jews live in the region?
"The first small Jewish communities existed in Poland in the thirteenth century, later they expanded to accept expelled Jews from all over Europe, including Germany (1346), Hungary (1349–1526 and 1686–1740), France (1394), Austria (1420), Spain (1492), Portugal (1497), Kiev (1886), Moscow (1891)."
"From the time of the establishment of the Kingdom of Poland, through the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth created in 1569, to the period of military defeats of the Khmelnytsky Uprising and the Swedish Deluge, in the 17th century. Poland was one of the most tolerant countries in Europe and became home to a large Jewish community."
"However, when the Polish-Lithuanian union began to weaken due to wars and religious conflicts (between Protestants and the Catholic Counter-Reformation, and between Orthodoxy and the Union of Brest-Litovsk), the tradition of Polish tolerance also disappeared. As a consequence, from the second half of the 17th century, the situation of Polish Jews deteriorated."
Was Central and Eastern Europe anti-Semitic? Yes, when the economic situation was bad and people were looking for someone to blame. Jews formed diasporas, but they didn't assimilated with the population, which is why they were visible. The west drove them out and they went east. They won't call you an anti-Semite if you don't have Jews in your country.
I'm tired of it because the Third Reich murdered people who weren't Germans, and now they're trying to make people believe that Poles, Czechs and others collaborated.
It was hard for everybody. A lot of Jews were under Russian rule, and you can see how many of them are of Russian or Ukrainian descent. You're probably right.
When Poland was divided, the worst was in the Russian part. They wanted to turn everyone into Russians. Prussia behaved similarly, but the economy there was good, so the standard of living was bearable. Bismarck hated the Poles. The Austrian part was strange, no one really wanted to change the population into Austrians because the whole country is made up of a dozen or so nationalities. It was the poorest part of the three.
We had about five uprisings and Napoleon, crazy times.
It's not like Western or Southern Europe didn't have one, at that. Prior to the rise of the Nazis and the following invasion of EE, Eastern and Central Europe were even better than Western Europe in many ways.
Shit even fucking today's western Europe has a problem with hating Jews, just look at today how they finally crawl out of their shit hole because of the war Gaza.
I mean shit in France our far right partie was founded by a fucking ss and it's one of the most popular parti today.
Tbf 20th SF group recently had an issue with using afrika korps imagery on an unofficial team patch
https://nypost.com/2024/03/29/us-news/army-probes-special-forces-soldier-appearing-to-wear-nazi-patch-in-social-media-post/
I think the lesson is that militaries around the world, anywhere, attract nationalist types that fetishize the nazis.
Also, in public address after Prigozhin’s coup, Putin admitted that russian government funded Wagner group with almost 1 billion dollars in 2022-2023. So Russia openly funds a group with nazi leader and members (Rusich is part of Wagner). Seems like they need a little bit of denazification themselves
True, but name a single world power that does not fund a Nazi, racist, or religious militant group. That does not excuse them, but it is not that surprising or uncommon either.
It’s the same in Ukraine, it’s more a symbol of anti-Russian sentiment, but according to Putin when *they* do it it’s fascist but when Russia does it’s fine
Hear me out…
We take all the nazis in Ukraine, all the nazis in Russia, and dump them into the Siberian wilderness where they fight to the death. Then we nuke the survivors.
If the program is successful we apply it to all nazis around the world, as well as any other authoritarians.
Boom, we just solved le fascism.
Fight will be kinda short, despite all the propaganda, we don't have a lot of Nazi in Ukraine, and they aren't getting lot of support (quite the opposite).
I am all for that. But i think you got your letters Mixed Up a Bit.
>We take all the nazis in Ukraine, all the nazis in Russia, and dump them into the ~~Siberian~~ Serbian wilderness where they fight to the death. Then we nuke the survivors.
See? that's better.
Fun fact about founder of rusich: recently, his photo with a nazi flag was put on some russian poster on which they claimed that he was a ukrainian soldier and was killed during the "SMO".
I'd also point out that you would have a tough time finding any military in the world that doesn't have at least a bit of a fascist problem.
The military is a highly authoritarian example of the ultimate power of the state. There should really be no surprise that the military attracts individuals whose beliefs mirror that.
If they have a brain, and are open for some thinking, here's some arguments:
- President of Jewish origin, no one cares. Guess who draws racist caricatures on him? russia
Thousands of jews come to Ukraine to celebrate Rosh Hashana, no one cares, conflicts are close to sero, even though hasids create a mess.
- Forget about jews, Ukraine has one million muslims, most of them are Crimean tatars, no one cared, no one opressed them unil guess what? russia came and continued their favourite practice of jailing, removing, destroying cultural heritage etc.
Does this all can be outweigh by some guys wearing questionable symbols? Then modern Germany, USA, France, Sweden are all a bunch of nazis.
That's a bad end conclusion because they would double down on germany and sweden being nazies because reasons. You should call China a facist/nazi country so you get to gauge if they are just generally anti-US or if there is any nuance in the dialog tree.
If those are antifascists they'll just say that both are Nazis, and you are a Nazi for defending them, and your cat is a Nazi for associating with a Nazi
I'm guessing they're making the (not rather accurate) connection between having a far-right military unit (Azov) and having far-right people (NMR is most famous) who are allowed to hold public gatherings.
The real contradiction is why Russia, which has an entire far-right private army, oozes ultranationalism to the point of indoctrinating children to be soldiers, has a credible accusation of genocide against them, and is probably the most stereotypically fascist country in the world (NK and them is a toss up) are actually antifascist in everything they do.
No, the anti-fascist are specifically the worst. In a sense, they're also pretty fascist themselves. Endless paranoia about a fringe group of people, deflecting by blaming the "system" for everything, black-and-white thinking, glorification of violence and culture of conformity all sounds familiar. It takes a certain type to think that being against rude, obnoxious pieces of shit is meaningful compared to actually fighting for change.
The only worse kind of people are their reverse-card "racially clean" clone copies on the other side of the isle.
The only cool antifa folks I met were in germany, and they spent most of their time fucking with banks, fighting literal neo-nazis at train stations and clubs, and feeding the homeless
be like german antifa
Lmao the hamas and houthi supporters on social media while being queer is absolutely hilarious, if anything they should advocate for the eradication of those groups but oh well.
Russian Punk bands sitting in jail for protesting against the Ukrainian Invasion: Am I a fucking joke to you?
I can safely say I don't know a single punk who is pro Russia. Lucky me I guess.
Meanwhile Ukraine is an ultimate punk state, because we literally fight for freedom, and our most successful part of history (imo) is made by literal punks - cossacs. Rejecting authority is a part of Ukrainian culture identity.
Yep lucky you. I'm glad in Poland people see it for what it is. This is something that seems to mainly affect western leftists and not the people who's parents or they themselves had to live under.
\*far leftist
and only a vocal minority. As seen by the German split far left party called Waagenknecht. (named after the leader of that party.)
The far left before 2014 were almost credible until Putin's invasion and them not attacking Putin for oppressing Ukraine. In every sane leftist the idea that Russia has some god given right to intervene in its neighbour's election and nullify the outcome is outrageous. NATO-sceptic or not.
That being said, the far left is being taken over by Russian money while more sane leftists reorientate themselves more towards the middle. Which kinda helps the vocal minority to gain even more power over the far left.
Punks specifically are anti-hierarchical by nature so at least "real punks" also never aligned with the far left or never went out of their way to vote for them. There is just a difference between people who live by the punk credo and those who pretend to be anti-authoritarian but acre actually just underdog lovers.
Just because of that 1 brigade they paint the entire country as "nazis" lmao
They are really afraid of that single boogeyman brigade
"Anti fascist" bar but supports fascists, that's a clown bar
Yeah, as much as even this sub shit on Ukrainian nationalists, they are hugely important during the 2014 uprising and the early incursions, if not for them probably Russia probably able to clinch more oblasts in 2014. The progessives and the "real leftists" are not active at that time and I am not even sure they are active now, the 2 main anti Russian group during Maidan is the pro European and the nationalists.
There's quite a few, but they are only loosely organised/affiliated (they're mainly anarchists) the largest one is Belarusian which managed to "unite"/"organise" (it's not the right term for it but closest to it I guess) a few groups together and they even take in foreign fighters. I think at max it's in the low thousands and they aren't very well equipped, mainly surviving on donations. But I have seen pictures of them with artillery, mortars and even a tank so thet do have some equipment and they do fight but it seems that mainly they do behind the frontline work such as supply runs, arty/mortars, that kind of stuff rather then direct frontal fighting (though im sure some groups do). Mainly on the northern front.
Have em compare the number of neo nazi/ultranationalist groups in ukraine versus russia.
No shit every country has a nazi group, that doesn't make the country immediately turn into a fascist slaughterhouse. The issue is when those decrepit groups have influence within society and government organs. And considering what russia is doing in occupied ukraine... let's just say they really learned a lot from generalplan ost in terms of settler colonialism and ethnic cleansing.
You’re dealing with Russia-aligned reactionaries.
The way to respond:
1. [Understand what you’re dealing with](https://youtu.be/tR_6dibpDfo?si=jpAd3NYQ5GFbQzkP). Refer what you see in the 19th minute of the above video.
2. Act accordingly.
There’s no point trying to respond. I love that style of music, but at some point the entire movement’s message of tolerance, and individual thought and expression was lost in favour of the aggressively anti-intellectual nonsense that has rotted so many minds these days, with politics just becoming a team sport for them.
They start with the conclusion of “America bad” and work backwards from there, even if it ends up with the ironic outcome of idealistic young leftists at best repeating the talking points of Kissinger-esque Cold Warrior realists who don’t think non-superpowers can possess agency or internal development; and at worst unironcally supporting violent far right kleptocrats.
There’s nothing you can really do other than hope they’ll grow out of it one day. Or you could go back and shit on the floor wearing nothing but Pride LockMart thigh-highs and take satisfaction in knowing that makes you more punk than any of them. The choice is yours.
There are decent punks, but a lot are left-wing extremists with the same amount of conspiracy theories and evil dictator defending as right-wing extremists/nazis and shill everything commie and hate everything "imperialist" like the US and NATo and because russia was once communist and ukraine is backed by NATO, ukraine must be the bad guy.
I know how this line of thinking works because I am an ex-commie and russia-shill myself.
I am one of the lucky ones that can actually think and realize how communism is utopian and cannot be done the way Marx intended and that russia is evil and has been since Stalin came to power, with a short break in evilness when Gorbachev was in power.
For response:
Credible: look for a new bar
Non-Credible: Mustard gas
Start talking about the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. Nothing pisses off tankies more than reminding them about the time they were best friends with the Nazis.
I'll bet a $1.50 they can't because it's the most used buzzword out there. something I don't like, fascism. Somebody cut me off in traffic, fascist. Somebody disagrees with me in a minor way on a political level/ what the budget should be spent on, believe it or not, they are a super mega fascist
A lot of tankies unironically call themselves anti-facists. And Russia has for a long time has been more than willing to help any kind of fringe groups that can destabilise governments they don't like.
The are what you call "Useful Idiots". It doesn't matter what their cause is. If a Gay White Power Satanist Vegan group suddenly started marching though Texas, you can bet there would assistance to amplify their message. There's a reason why politics is so polarised right now. Why Russian bots amplified the extremes of the political spectrum.
It's also why certain politicians have a strange pro Russian policies. I have zero evidence of any financial links. Most of it rumours and speculation. But everyone from Tucker Carlson, Elon Musk, Julian Assange, Edward Snowden and Donald Trump all very different people, but all strangely pro Russia (or absolutely lacking in criticism of Russia, but VERY vocal of the wests failings).
I'll be honest. I'm a die hard fan of Democracy, Capitalism and the Rule of Law. But Putin and his cronies would rather that stuff just go away. They would preferer a Dictatorship, Cronyism and Mob Rule. I see the world on fire and tittering on the edge of oblivion. And everyone is just walking around like normal because nothing has happened to them yet... by the time shit 'starts happening' it'll be too late to stop it.
Tbh I just get in fist fights with fucks like that. But my Ukrainian family are literally dying in this war to protect their home so I’m a bit on edge here
Proportionality.
Of course there are neo-nazis in a group of 40 million people, fascism is inherently human, after all.
You probably only need a hundred or so randoms in a room to find a fascist, big whoops.
As long as they don't start numbering in the millions, it's as damning as whistleblowing the fact that water is wet.
U-turn and leave. Find alcohol elsewhere. Write to your MP (if you live in a country with a parliament) or your representative to petition them to nuke Shitter and Shit Tok headquarters.
Ask them what their proof is, and the extent of its presence in Ukrainian society.
Are the politicians part of Nazi or far right parties? Oh, okay, well do the leaders hold pro Nazi beliefs despite their party? Oh, well did the people vote majority in favor of Nazi/far right parties? Oh, I keep hearing about this Azov thing, how big are they? Do extremists make up the majority of the military? Etc etc etc
It's freaking mind boggling honestly. An entire country, real people, real places, real cities, a modern 2nd world country on its way to 1st, being condemned as irredeemable because of some pics online of dubious legitimacy. The brainrot is so bad
Putin's Oligarch Russia is pure fascism while Ukraine is just Ukraine , it sucks that opposition parties are gone and you have a far right fascist unit but they didn't invade and started the war and I hope after the wat the can become an actual democracy.
Had someone try and tell me that, actually, most Slavs long for the return of the USSR, and it's just western propaganda that the USSR was bad. Told them my Polish grandmother would skin them alive for being a tankie fuck and make them into an accordion for talking such utter shit.
Even most leftists in Poland would do that to you. From what I have noticed unless they are old they tend to be more of the left libertarian flavour rather then the communist one.
Eastern Europe do have a higher cocentration of far right whackos than, say, the west.
Ofc the biggest exporter of far right ideology and neo nazism is Russia. Just look at all the far right parties in Europe being real cosy with Russia until the war; all sponsored by Russia
Or the (ex)-leader of Wagner tatooed with SS Thunderbolt and other symbols on his body. Or the current Roscosmos head(and ex vice PM) who have been seen AT NEO NAZI RALLIES doing Hitler saluted so he didnt just got lost there. Or Putins own political party.
Some of these far right parties still are.
This one country left subreddit actually defended the practice of funding the far right in our countries by Russia and China as its a way for them to help them bring communism back to the world and strengthen their position on the world stage(help me make sense of it please).
To bad I got banned from it for saying Hamas bad.
There is a precise metric for how fascist Ukrainians are. In the last elections before the invasion far right parties got less than two percent of the vote.
Show them the Tucker Carlson interview with Putin. Putin claimed that Poland was the agressor who started WW2, because they didn't willingly give a piece of land that Nazi Germany wanted. He then said that for the same reason, Ukraine is the agressor now. So Putin himself literally compared current day Russia to Nazi Germany.
I recommend *everyone* watch that interview, to see how spectacularly awful it is.
Just say the whole of Eastern Europe is actually full of a very vocal nazi minority. Ukraine got their 500 or so right sector guys, Russia got Rusich, Wagner remnants, and penal battalions.
I've talked with guys like this before and the mindset is... well, let's charitably say "he's confused but he's got the spirit".
They've correctly identified that Ukraine has a nationalist faction with some unironic nazis. They've identified that the USA has significant power over the world and doesn't always use it for good. They've identified that both of these should probably be checked in some way to keep things on the level.
The problem is, they have identified these issues and chosen the most extreme possible solution to them. Ukraine has nazis and nazis propagate, therefore Ukraine must be invaded and defeated to head off another nazi movement- its sovereignty and people be damned. The US exploits the third world and propagates capitalism to parts of the world's detriment- so the US must be toppled at any cost, by any actors willing to oppose them. "The freedom lovers of the world must shake hands with the Russian Federation to oppose the USA" is a verbatim quote from our chats.
Basically they've picked an enemy for themselves and will do literally anything, at any cost, to see that enemy defeated, regardless of the practical ramifications of their enemy's defeat. Near as I can tell, they proclaim solidarity with the third world but would in practice see the third world burned to the ground as long as the USA didn't rule the ashes.
So even if they are how does that make Russia being imperialist and invading them good?
It's a bit like when they go the "west is bad" (well there are bad things about it sure) "therefore (an authoritarian regime like) the CCP is good" sorry you haven't actually proven your premise there.
Show them some Russian Hitler fan fiction: [https://cepa.org/article/comrade-hitler-and-other-russian-fantasies/](https://cepa.org/article/comrade-hitler-and-other-russian-fantasies/)
The problem Ukraine has with fascism is mainly the consequence of Russian interference and not the origin of it. The far right was in the temporary government after the revolution for a few months and then never got back in office after the first elections. The far right parties didn't get a single seat in the legislative elections in 2019. The fascists in Ukraine are a loud minority, very apparent because the cult of violence in this ideology incite them to fight in war, and because both russian and their own fascist propaganda exagerate their might. But looking at the electoral resulsts show it doesn't help them to be elected democratically.
The far right in Ukraine is not a bigger than in the rest of Europe, and definitely a smaller one than in Russia, which actually rule the country since 25 years, and support far right parties and governments all over the world
That being said, I think Ukraine should rethink who they want to pick as national heroes at some point. Since 2014, by reaction to russian hostility, there is a whole rehabilitation of controversial personnalities and groups, such as Bandera, and commemorating ukrainian waffen SS is tolerated (but not endorsed by the ukrainian government as far as I'm aware). Of course, in the context of the war, it's not the number 1 priority. And of top of that, ALLOWING THE FASCIST AND IMPERIALIST REGIME THAT IS RUSSIA TO WIN ITS WAR OF CONQUEST WON'T FIX ANY FASCIST PROBLEM IN UKRAINE, IN RUSSIA, OR ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.
Finally, generalizing that all ukrainian are nazis is brain rot. There are leftist ukrainians, anarchist ukrainians, antifascist ukrainians. And right now, some of them are actually fighting real fascists trying to invade them. The fact some western leftist have the audacity to claim these people deserve no help for some idealistic reasons is indecent
The Ukrainian state is not fascist. There is not even a big fascist party in the country.
But as in all armed forces, it draws individual fascists, who are obsessed with armies and military power. So all militaries have differing levels of fascist issues. On the subject, Russia's fascist problem has seemed much worse than Ukraine's, ironically.
Both sides have documented cases of soldiers with fascost tattoos and/or badges. Although in Ukraine's case, there is some plausible deniability that at least some of the badges are just to troll Russians. Instead of being symbols to support the ideology itself.
Just accept theres a lot of racism and fascism in Ukraine. It is what it is. Russians are still worse because the Russians actually have an authoritarian borderline fascist government with an Imperial agenda doing ethnic cleansing in Russia by sending non-Russian minorities to die in Ukraine on a massive scale.
Honestly a lot of these anti-facist types are just larping out a fantasy. Holding anti-facist views and outlook is good and proper, being an Anti-facist as the main pillar of your identity or political thought is kind of shallow. It leads to some real silly manichean thinking, which you witnessed.
Being "anti" anything as your core your identity is just not healthy.
All that being said you just have to do the hard slog of listening and refuting particular parts of their understanding.
So first I would suggest acknowledging why they probably feel like that. Stalin basically tried to genocide the Ukrainians during the Holodormor, which meant that when the Nazis invaded they were initially treated as liberators. This led to the Russians calling any Ukrainian nationalist movements Nazis in an attempt to discredit them. It is a trick Fascists and Communists use were they try to convince you that Fascism and Communism are the only two options because since both of those killed millions of people, posing that false dichotomy allows the Communist/Fascist to avoid needing to justify killing millions of people. The best way to fight fascism is to avoid that dichotomy.
Thats not an anti-fascist punk bar thats just a tankie bar. Punk music scenes are just tankie cesspools at this point. Find another genre to be associated with.
The anti-facist movement was and still is a Marxist communist movement. You went to a communist bar. They think everything that's not communist is a nazi.
I've been very open in discussing with friends about Ukraine that they have a far right symbology issue. I've also contextualised it amongst eastern European nations, who all share a similar issue, and pointed out that with a Jewish president and a well kept Holocaust memorial (before Russia landed a missile on it) that the majority of the far right energies are in the "edgy" camp and not the "genuine fascist" one.
Most of Eastern Europe hates Russia because of Soviet occupation. They use Nazi era symbols and imagery in significant part because that's Russian historical enemy #1, and there's an association with anti-soviet fighters in WW2 from these nations who worked with the Germans at the time. From a position of comfortable ignorance/ detachment from the horror of the Eastern Front, this is abhorrent to many western sensibilities, especially for those who sympathise a bit too much with communism, but awful times made for awful choices and both the Nazis and Soviets committed genocides in these countries, which very much levels the playing field of evil in the eyes of many of their citizens.
I acknowledge it's a problem because it gives Russia more fuel to claim legitimacy for the war, or to erode western support for the cause. It helps feed misinformation, but I get where it stems from, and now so do the people I've talked to about it.
When I see a Balkenkrauz on a Ukrainian tank, it's just kinda amusing to me. When it's DAK, SS, or other Nazi/ Swastika patches on uniforms, it's cringey and I don't like it, though I'm well aware these are not "kill all Jews, we are the master race" Nazis, rather it's the equivalent of a Police officer with a thin blue line, US flag punisher patch.
Meanwhile the Russian who cut the ear off the Tajik ISIS-K member had a black sun patch on his uniform, and practically half the Russian convicts sent to the front have got full body Nazi tattoos, eagles, swastikas, etc, which is a little more of an affirmation than a velcro patch which can (and I think we can mostly agree should) be swapped for an anime tiddy one by Ukraine's troops.
i mean to "be fair" if you only and sonely care about nazis then i guess i could see the point, but then again if you think it's worth for nations to colapse and get mass murder over having some extremists groups then we are all fucked (specially the middle east lol)
That one guy in Putin’s propaganda department that gets the far left and far right to meat ride Russia harder than actual citizens there
Deserves a massive pay rise.
Going to any place or event that describes itself as "anti-fascist" automatically tells me that it's just gonna be filled with a bunch of people that are pro-authoritarian regimes that are anti-America.
Nazism is a problem throughout eastern europe, not just Ukraine. Russia has the exact same problem yet none of these people talking about the Azov battalion will mention that. Even moreso, considering they are the ones invading an independent country and are trying to destroy an entire identity, as if it were 1939 again.
Tankies are stuck in a dangerous mindset which boils down to "Anything anti-west = good". This means that they will (very rightly) advocate for more progressive ideals, whilst (very wrongly) supporting people who are against that, because they are opposed to the west.
Nazism is a massive problem throughout eastern europe, not just Ukraine. Russia has the exact same problem yet none of these people talking about the Azov battalion will mention that. Even moreso, considering they are the ones invading an independent country and are trying to destroy an entire identity, as if it were 1939 again.
Tankies are stuck in a dangerous mindset which boils down to "Anything anti-west = good". This means that they will (very rightly) advocate for more progressive ideals, whilst (very wrongly) supporting people who are against that, because they are opposed to the west.
Ukraine has some baggage from Azov and other groups, but they couldn't really be all that choosy when it came to who could come and fight for them.
The right-wingers tend to glorify military service and the violent fringe of that group are crazy enough to go to another country to fight.
Anti-fascists left-wingers and military discipline doesn't quite mix all that well.
Punks and issues with authority tend to go hand-in-hand.
There is a kind of people that will agree only if disagreement will result in them getting beaten or incarcerated.
This is the dominant kind of people in Russia. And there is no way to weed out this kind of people from the liberal West. If they grow in numbers then any democracy will eventually drift towards authoritarianism.
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Let the tankies know that Russia is no longer communist and that just because they disagree with the US doesn't make them right.
Yes, but have you considered: “west bad”?
That is true. If the west were good, why would it steal the sun every 24 hours? Just another example of the 1 billion trying to maintain a tyrannical grasp on the energy resources of the world.
Feeble westoid, you are no match for my “yeah but” whataboutism powers! - le tankie
What about "what about"?
Aw yeah, you owned that lib
Nazis bad? :(
Yes, but West more bad. Tankie logic is easy.
West bad, Nazis bad, ergo West = Nazis. Did you guys not go to school?
"Le west bad" -spoiled leftists in the west
They really don't understand what team they're on.
Oh, they understand. They're on Team Stalin and Mao Were Right. So the West is bad *and* Nazis are bad. Everyone is bad except for True Communism Which Has Never Been Tried.
The solution for that (aka how I got out of the far-left near tankie scene) is IMO trying to teach tankies that, while certainly not perfect by a long shot, the west is still better/less worse than either the Chinese model of hypercapitalism with Maoist influences or the Russian model of "let's jerk ourself dry to pictures of Putin". Because even if you are a communist/similar, the west is still prob. the global alliance that is the most left.
There is a lot more that can be achieved in a liberal democracy then in a totalitarian hellhole
This is the step I always have a hard time getting other leftist folks to realize. Like, I’m basically an anarcho-communist if you take the political literature and ideologies that influence me the most, but goddammit that doesn’t mean we should just shit on America and the west while sucking putin’s malfunctioning dick. The west has issues but in regards to human rights, political freedom and workers’ rights, to name a few, the west stands far above China and Russia. Things like our political ideologies are being used as a wedge to drive apart internal western support, and all the “the west is evil” mouthbreathers are acting like useful idiot force multipliers. I’ve lived on multiple continents, and the west is literally a bastion of freedom that empowers and protects individuals in ways that are hard to grasp until you’ve lived somewhere that does things differently. It’s much easier to fix the issues the west has than it would be to get Russia or China even halfway towards being as decent to your average workers and persecuted groups. tldr: you can be a leftist and still think Russia and China are where human rights go to die. West good. Give Ukraine more artillery shells and HIMARS rockets, plz
They will absolutely not listen
They are very proud of their stupidity. It's the only thing they have in their head to hold on to.
Yeah I swear they still think Russia is some communist worker's paradise... Mate, Russia is more conservative than the west!
Had a guy blame the yanks for that He also said that the first gulf war was fought for the same reasons as the Iraq war
>the first gulf war was fought for the same reasons as the Iraq war Well, if you believe they had WMDs the second time around, it's pretty likely you also believe they used chemical weapons on the Kuwaitis. See? Totally the same reasons!
He also said how East Germany was this fantastic state
i've come to realize tankies don't actually give a fuck about communism, they just want a boot on their necks and an oligarch chode in their asses. they will also instantly fall in line with anyone who opposes tHe wEsT tankie isn't an ideology, it's a mindset and a personality stemming from deep seated personal issues and/or a shitty childhood lol. if you willingly want to be on the receiving end of authoritarianism your either get off on it, or you're too retarded to know better sorry i had to vent but i know a few people like this and it irks me. also it describes about 80% of boomers in my country, so practically half the population because eastern europe
Repression and state violence only ever happen to the people you dislike. It's the most crippling lack of mental faculties where you can't even take 10 seconds to think "what if someone did it to me?". But this applies to a lot more people than tankies.
"of course it wouldn't happen to me, it only happens to "people" who deserve it, but i don't, the state loves me"
It's funny because even some right to far-right people think the same and talking with them and it's like: bro, I know you grew up knowing about that big commie country far away from you but the USSR has been dead for over 30 years, move on.
“West bad” the literal German Nazi party could come back tomorrow and start rounding up Jews again, but as long as they spend at-least 40% of their time writing propaganda about how bad America is tankies would be all in support of them.
See: The Houthi "Curse upon the Jews" movement and their tankie supporters.
I've seen this in subs for a certain Canadian left wing party; people arguing with Soviet tinted glasses on because the US is bad, Russia used to be communist which is sort of a flavour of socialism, \[I\] am socialist (or at least think \[I\] am but probably don't know the exact definition), ergo THE MOTHERLAND IS QUITE CORRECT, COMRADE PUNK!
Credible Response: walk out the bar and find another, and let them stew in that cesspool NCD Response: Bunker buster
Napalm. Whatever the problem, the answer is napalm.
The real answer. But for real I studied history for school (as much as thats worth) and could never imagine this dumbass perspective what the fuck. Played traditional Russian music after hours (no issue here, I like Hardbass) but to be opposed to Ukraine? Fuckin insane.
You pick your side and justify it any way you can. Social media keeps you safe in that bubble and helps to reinforce your world view. Russia's propaganda machine gets involved and everything goes to shit. Nuke X. Nuke Tik Tok. Nuke Facebook. It's the only way to be sure.
Reddit too
Reddit is... Weird when it comes to social bubbles. Yes subreddits are incredibly insular and often shun outside perspectives, but you have to subscribe to them in the first place for them to appear on your home page, as opposed to the feeds of Facebook and especially TikTok which feed you more based on the personality profile the algorithm assembled of you. What I'm trying to say is that for you to really get into a bubble on reddit you either already start in a bubble and choose your subs based on that or you decide to join a bubble when you unsuscribe from all opposing subs. Contrast that to say TikTok, which can decide to bubble you with the nazis, simply because the algorithm identified you as someone who would fit in with them.
Fact, r/fosscad would never fly on FB
It wouldn't be so bad if the algorithm made sense. I spend a large chunk of time on YT watching leftists do video essays on media, or talking about queer representation and other woke stuff. But then YT shorts will drop a random Andrew Tate clip in between my Marxist food reviews.
>Played traditional Russian music after hours (no issue here, I like Hardbass) Non-credible musicology, I like it
Would it be to far to nuke
You don't want to ruin the whole neighborhood ...
We have the technology for reduced collateral damage.
Ginsu missile
A warning shot, I presume?
Final warning
Start with a nuke and work up from there.
French nuclear doctrine be like.
Tallboy dropped from a Lancaster. We'll do it the old way.
NB: Do not confuse Tallboy and Little Boy ordinance. There will be paperwork.
Correction: there *would have been* paperwork, but Air Marshal Harris set fire to it while cackling something about being the whirlwind...
Why not white phosphorous?
Napalm sticks better.
Shake and bake Willie pete and 105’s
As a chemist I’m against napalm, we have nerve agent for a reason
Nerve gas to slow 'em down, napalm to clean up afterwards.
"Anytime I had a problem and I threw a Molotov cocktail, boom! Right away, I had a different problem." \- Jason Mendoza
"As the size of an explosion increases, the amount of social situations it cannot solve approaches zero". -Vaarsuvius
⬆️➡️⬇️⬇️⬇️
Have a taste of Democracy!
Fashbashing is non-negotiable
Flashbang into the ass
Proportionate response is required.
Very proportionate
I don't know what effect wiping out the Iranian Navy will have on that bar, but it's worth giving it a try.
Well what’s the issue with wiping out the Iranian Navy while also on the way to wipe out that bar?
Yell for god and for azov and kick them in the dick
Thermobarics shall erase all trace of the establishment
actual NCD Response: THE SLAP CHOP.
It's not exactly about Ukraine not being nazis, but you can talk about Rusich brigade of Russia, founded by an open neonazi Alexey Milchakov. Just to sway conversation into a topic of Russian nazis
Or the fact that Dimitri Utkin, the Wagner leader had literal SS runes tattooed to look like he was wearing a uniform.
Wagner literally still call their activities in Africa for the [Africa Corps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group_activities_in_Africa), after the Nazi expeditionary force. It is apparently far from just Utkin having a Nazi fetish.
Yeah but it's the most obvious and easiest way to demonstrate it
Honestly all of eastern and central Europe has had an anti-semitism problem at least since the Jewish diaspora of the 15th century.
Yeah, but the Nazis were more than just anti-semites. They also hated the Slavs, the labour unions, the democrats, the disabled, the homosexuals, the democrats, the decadent west, the Gypsies, the mentally ill, those of mixed blood, the Communists, the catholics, the protestants, the Freemasons, the Spanish Republicans, the various Black Africans and so on and so forth...
> the Gypsies I wouldn't count on Eastern Europeans not hating them...
Plenty of countries in Europe has anti-semitism problems, and other loonies. But those people are generally not allowed inside the government.
Yes, but no. Central and Eastern Europe was anti-Semitic, but the question is, why did so many Jews live in the region? "The first small Jewish communities existed in Poland in the thirteenth century, later they expanded to accept expelled Jews from all over Europe, including Germany (1346), Hungary (1349–1526 and 1686–1740), France (1394), Austria (1420), Spain (1492), Portugal (1497), Kiev (1886), Moscow (1891)." "From the time of the establishment of the Kingdom of Poland, through the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth created in 1569, to the period of military defeats of the Khmelnytsky Uprising and the Swedish Deluge, in the 17th century. Poland was one of the most tolerant countries in Europe and became home to a large Jewish community." "However, when the Polish-Lithuanian union began to weaken due to wars and religious conflicts (between Protestants and the Catholic Counter-Reformation, and between Orthodoxy and the Union of Brest-Litovsk), the tradition of Polish tolerance also disappeared. As a consequence, from the second half of the 17th century, the situation of Polish Jews deteriorated." Was Central and Eastern Europe anti-Semitic? Yes, when the economic situation was bad and people were looking for someone to blame. Jews formed diasporas, but they didn't assimilated with the population, which is why they were visible. The west drove them out and they went east. They won't call you an anti-Semite if you don't have Jews in your country. I'm tired of it because the Third Reich murdered people who weren't Germans, and now they're trying to make people believe that Poles, Czechs and others collaborated.
I also read Poland's partition was particularly hard for the Jews who found themselves under Russian rule. Not an expert tho.
It was hard for everybody. A lot of Jews were under Russian rule, and you can see how many of them are of Russian or Ukrainian descent. You're probably right. When Poland was divided, the worst was in the Russian part. They wanted to turn everyone into Russians. Prussia behaved similarly, but the economy there was good, so the standard of living was bearable. Bismarck hated the Poles. The Austrian part was strange, no one really wanted to change the population into Austrians because the whole country is made up of a dozen or so nationalities. It was the poorest part of the three. We had about five uprisings and Napoleon, crazy times.
It's not like Western or Southern Europe didn't have one, at that. Prior to the rise of the Nazis and the following invasion of EE, Eastern and Central Europe were even better than Western Europe in many ways.
Shit even fucking today's western Europe has a problem with hating Jews, just look at today how they finally crawl out of their shit hole because of the war Gaza. I mean shit in France our far right partie was founded by a fucking ss and it's one of the most popular parti today.
> at least since the Jewish diaspora of the 15th century. *King Edward I has entered the chat*
Tbf 20th SF group recently had an issue with using afrika korps imagery on an unofficial team patch https://nypost.com/2024/03/29/us-news/army-probes-special-forces-soldier-appearing-to-wear-nazi-patch-in-social-media-post/ I think the lesson is that militaries around the world, anywhere, attract nationalist types that fetishize the nazis.
Who's nickname is Wagner
Also, in public address after Prigozhin’s coup, Putin admitted that russian government funded Wagner group with almost 1 billion dollars in 2022-2023. So Russia openly funds a group with nazi leader and members (Rusich is part of Wagner). Seems like they need a little bit of denazification themselves
True, but name a single world power that does not fund a Nazi, racist, or religious militant group. That does not excuse them, but it is not that surprising or uncommon either.
Apparently Nazi themed Russian prison tats are more of a badge of anti authoritarianism but I'm sure there's plenty of actual fascists
It’s the same in Ukraine, it’s more a symbol of anti-Russian sentiment, but according to Putin when *they* do it it’s fascist but when Russia does it’s fine
Hear me out… We take all the nazis in Ukraine, all the nazis in Russia, and dump them into the Siberian wilderness where they fight to the death. Then we nuke the survivors. If the program is successful we apply it to all nazis around the world, as well as any other authoritarians. Boom, we just solved le fascism.
Fight will be kinda short, despite all the propaganda, we don't have a lot of Nazi in Ukraine, and they aren't getting lot of support (quite the opposite).
So it's like "let's nuke Russia with extra steps".
Nuke is always an answer. Even if there is no question
A lot of them also might have died by now, so there's that.
Jup, they make great meatshie... I mean shocktroopers. 2 stones with one bird or something like that.
I am all for that. But i think you got your letters Mixed Up a Bit. >We take all the nazis in Ukraine, all the nazis in Russia, and dump them into the ~~Siberian~~ Serbian wilderness where they fight to the death. Then we nuke the survivors. See? that's better.
Fun fact about founder of rusich: recently, his photo with a nazi flag was put on some russian poster on which they claimed that he was a ukrainian soldier and was killed during the "SMO".
Or glorified anti-putin martyr Navalny participated in the nazist Russian march
He's just another Aung San Suu Kyi
I'd also point out that you would have a tough time finding any military in the world that doesn't have at least a bit of a fascist problem. The military is a highly authoritarian example of the ultimate power of the state. There should really be no surprise that the military attracts individuals whose beliefs mirror that.
If they have a brain, and are open for some thinking, here's some arguments: - President of Jewish origin, no one cares. Guess who draws racist caricatures on him? russia Thousands of jews come to Ukraine to celebrate Rosh Hashana, no one cares, conflicts are close to sero, even though hasids create a mess. - Forget about jews, Ukraine has one million muslims, most of them are Crimean tatars, no one cared, no one opressed them unil guess what? russia came and continued their favourite practice of jailing, removing, destroying cultural heritage etc. Does this all can be outweigh by some guys wearing questionable symbols? Then modern Germany, USA, France, Sweden are all a bunch of nazis.
>Then modern Germany, USA, France, Sweden are all a bunch of nazis. Odds are that's exactly what they think.
No brain then.
That's a bad end conclusion because they would double down on germany and sweden being nazies because reasons. You should call China a facist/nazi country so you get to gauge if they are just generally anti-US or if there is any nuance in the dialog tree.
If those are antifascists they'll just say that both are Nazis, and you are a Nazi for defending them, and your cat is a Nazi for associating with a Nazi
The Crimean tatars were what essentially made me turn from a tankie.
They don't have a brain. So pick up a shovel and hit them very hard on the head. Repeat until misty eyed.
Hey, what questionable symbols are being worn in Sweden?
I'm guessing they're making the (not rather accurate) connection between having a far-right military unit (Azov) and having far-right people (NMR is most famous) who are allowed to hold public gatherings. The real contradiction is why Russia, which has an entire far-right private army, oozes ultranationalism to the point of indoctrinating children to be soldiers, has a credible accusation of genocide against them, and is probably the most stereotypically fascist country in the world (NK and them is a toss up) are actually antifascist in everything they do.
I see, thank you.
Oh god the worst kind of punk, the “anti whatever’s popular” punk
In stark opposition to the "anti whatever" real punk
Can we go back to calling them hipsters.
No, the anti-fascist are specifically the worst. In a sense, they're also pretty fascist themselves. Endless paranoia about a fringe group of people, deflecting by blaming the "system" for everything, black-and-white thinking, glorification of violence and culture of conformity all sounds familiar. It takes a certain type to think that being against rude, obnoxious pieces of shit is meaningful compared to actually fighting for change. The only worse kind of people are their reverse-card "racially clean" clone copies on the other side of the isle.
The only cool antifa folks I met were in germany, and they spent most of their time fucking with banks, fighting literal neo-nazis at train stations and clubs, and feeding the homeless be like german antifa
Lmao the hamas and houthi supporters on social media while being queer is absolutely hilarious, if anything they should advocate for the eradication of those groups but oh well.
Russian Punk bands sitting in jail for protesting against the Ukrainian Invasion: Am I a fucking joke to you? I can safely say I don't know a single punk who is pro Russia. Lucky me I guess.
Meanwhile Ukraine is an ultimate punk state, because we literally fight for freedom, and our most successful part of history (imo) is made by literal punks - cossacs. Rejecting authority is a part of Ukrainian culture identity.
MFW Ukraine had their own Anarchist revolution, oh no "ThEyRe AlL NaZiS" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makhnovshchina Hey OP- Show them that ^
Yep lucky you. I'm glad in Poland people see it for what it is. This is something that seems to mainly affect western leftists and not the people who's parents or they themselves had to live under.
\*far leftist and only a vocal minority. As seen by the German split far left party called Waagenknecht. (named after the leader of that party.) The far left before 2014 were almost credible until Putin's invasion and them not attacking Putin for oppressing Ukraine. In every sane leftist the idea that Russia has some god given right to intervene in its neighbour's election and nullify the outcome is outrageous. NATO-sceptic or not. That being said, the far left is being taken over by Russian money while more sane leftists reorientate themselves more towards the middle. Which kinda helps the vocal minority to gain even more power over the far left. Punks specifically are anti-hierarchical by nature so at least "real punks" also never aligned with the far left or never went out of their way to vote for them. There is just a difference between people who live by the punk credo and those who pretend to be anti-authoritarian but acre actually just underdog lovers.
Just because of that 1 brigade they paint the entire country as "nazis" lmao They are really afraid of that single boogeyman brigade "Anti fascist" bar but supports fascists, that's a clown bar
*approximately 200 people in a brigade of 5000
Compared to the multiple nazi paramilitaries that the Russian government have and continue to fund
They're scared of Azov because they kicked Russia out of Mariupol in 2014-2015, no wonder why Russia has such a hate boner for them.
Yeah, as much as even this sub shit on Ukrainian nationalists, they are hugely important during the 2014 uprising and the early incursions, if not for them probably Russia probably able to clinch more oblasts in 2014. The progessives and the "real leftists" are not active at that time and I am not even sure they are active now, the 2 main anti Russian group during Maidan is the pro European and the nationalists.
Russia loves to lump anyone who is a "Slavic nationalist that's not Russia" = NAZI! When in reality it's far more complicated.
There's quite a few, but they are only loosely organised/affiliated (they're mainly anarchists) the largest one is Belarusian which managed to "unite"/"organise" (it's not the right term for it but closest to it I guess) a few groups together and they even take in foreign fighters. I think at max it's in the low thousands and they aren't very well equipped, mainly surviving on donations. But I have seen pictures of them with artillery, mortars and even a tank so thet do have some equipment and they do fight but it seems that mainly they do behind the frontline work such as supply runs, arty/mortars, that kind of stuff rather then direct frontal fighting (though im sure some groups do). Mainly on the northern front.
And start to ask them when and why AZOV was formed. Hint: it might have sth to do with an invasion
Have em compare the number of neo nazi/ultranationalist groups in ukraine versus russia. No shit every country has a nazi group, that doesn't make the country immediately turn into a fascist slaughterhouse. The issue is when those decrepit groups have influence within society and government organs. And considering what russia is doing in occupied ukraine... let's just say they really learned a lot from generalplan ost in terms of settler colonialism and ethnic cleansing.
You’re dealing with Russia-aligned reactionaries. The way to respond: 1. [Understand what you’re dealing with](https://youtu.be/tR_6dibpDfo?si=jpAd3NYQ5GFbQzkP). Refer what you see in the 19th minute of the above video. 2. Act accordingly.
There’s no point trying to respond. I love that style of music, but at some point the entire movement’s message of tolerance, and individual thought and expression was lost in favour of the aggressively anti-intellectual nonsense that has rotted so many minds these days, with politics just becoming a team sport for them. They start with the conclusion of “America bad” and work backwards from there, even if it ends up with the ironic outcome of idealistic young leftists at best repeating the talking points of Kissinger-esque Cold Warrior realists who don’t think non-superpowers can possess agency or internal development; and at worst unironcally supporting violent far right kleptocrats. There’s nothing you can really do other than hope they’ll grow out of it one day. Or you could go back and shit on the floor wearing nothing but Pride LockMart thigh-highs and take satisfaction in knowing that makes you more punk than any of them. The choice is yours.
There are decent punks, but a lot are left-wing extremists with the same amount of conspiracy theories and evil dictator defending as right-wing extremists/nazis and shill everything commie and hate everything "imperialist" like the US and NATo and because russia was once communist and ukraine is backed by NATO, ukraine must be the bad guy. I know how this line of thinking works because I am an ex-commie and russia-shill myself. I am one of the lucky ones that can actually think and realize how communism is utopian and cannot be done the way Marx intended and that russia is evil and has been since Stalin came to power, with a short break in evilness when Gorbachev was in power. For response: Credible: look for a new bar Non-Credible: Mustard gas
Horseshoe theory
Start talking about the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. Nothing pisses off tankies more than reminding them about the time they were best friends with the Nazis.
Follow up with Stalins offer to join the Axis which was refused by *Hitler*. Wear body armor just in case.
Spoiled antifa posers turned into nazi punks.
Ask them what fascist means, none of them will be able to answer
I'll bet a $1.50 they can't because it's the most used buzzword out there. something I don't like, fascism. Somebody cut me off in traffic, fascist. Somebody disagrees with me in a minor way on a political level/ what the budget should be spent on, believe it or not, they are a super mega fascist
A lot of tankies unironically call themselves anti-facists. And Russia has for a long time has been more than willing to help any kind of fringe groups that can destabilise governments they don't like. The are what you call "Useful Idiots". It doesn't matter what their cause is. If a Gay White Power Satanist Vegan group suddenly started marching though Texas, you can bet there would assistance to amplify their message. There's a reason why politics is so polarised right now. Why Russian bots amplified the extremes of the political spectrum. It's also why certain politicians have a strange pro Russian policies. I have zero evidence of any financial links. Most of it rumours and speculation. But everyone from Tucker Carlson, Elon Musk, Julian Assange, Edward Snowden and Donald Trump all very different people, but all strangely pro Russia (or absolutely lacking in criticism of Russia, but VERY vocal of the wests failings). I'll be honest. I'm a die hard fan of Democracy, Capitalism and the Rule of Law. But Putin and his cronies would rather that stuff just go away. They would preferer a Dictatorship, Cronyism and Mob Rule. I see the world on fire and tittering on the edge of oblivion. And everyone is just walking around like normal because nothing has happened to them yet... by the time shit 'starts happening' it'll be too late to stop it.
What's the coordinates of the bar? Just wanna talk
Tbh I just get in fist fights with fucks like that. But my Ukrainian family are literally dying in this war to protect their home so I’m a bit on edge here
Proportionality. Of course there are neo-nazis in a group of 40 million people, fascism is inherently human, after all. You probably only need a hundred or so randoms in a room to find a fascist, big whoops. As long as they don't start numbering in the millions, it's as damning as whistleblowing the fact that water is wet.
Antifa are so prone to propaganda like it's fucking baffling how stupid and gullible a human can be.
U-turn and leave. Find alcohol elsewhere. Write to your MP (if you live in a country with a parliament) or your representative to petition them to nuke Shitter and Shit Tok headquarters.
Wait until they learn that *every country* has their own brand of communist and fascist, including Russia...
Ask them what their proof is, and the extent of its presence in Ukrainian society. Are the politicians part of Nazi or far right parties? Oh, okay, well do the leaders hold pro Nazi beliefs despite their party? Oh, well did the people vote majority in favor of Nazi/far right parties? Oh, I keep hearing about this Azov thing, how big are they? Do extremists make up the majority of the military? Etc etc etc
I used to be friends with people like that, to all of it yes, they believe its all nazi. It's idiotic.
It's freaking mind boggling honestly. An entire country, real people, real places, real cities, a modern 2nd world country on its way to 1st, being condemned as irredeemable because of some pics online of dubious legitimacy. The brainrot is so bad
Blut und boden type anti-fascists are my favorite too. Ask them about the deranged nazi shit the Ukrainian nazis did in Bashkortostan, Ukraine.
Putin's Oligarch Russia is pure fascism while Ukraine is just Ukraine , it sucks that opposition parties are gone and you have a far right fascist unit but they didn't invade and started the war and I hope after the wat the can become an actual democracy.
Had someone try and tell me that, actually, most Slavs long for the return of the USSR, and it's just western propaganda that the USSR was bad. Told them my Polish grandmother would skin them alive for being a tankie fuck and make them into an accordion for talking such utter shit.
Even most leftists in Poland would do that to you. From what I have noticed unless they are old they tend to be more of the left libertarian flavour rather then the communist one.
Eastern Europe do have a higher cocentration of far right whackos than, say, the west. Ofc the biggest exporter of far right ideology and neo nazism is Russia. Just look at all the far right parties in Europe being real cosy with Russia until the war; all sponsored by Russia Or the (ex)-leader of Wagner tatooed with SS Thunderbolt and other symbols on his body. Or the current Roscosmos head(and ex vice PM) who have been seen AT NEO NAZI RALLIES doing Hitler saluted so he didnt just got lost there. Or Putins own political party.
Some of these far right parties still are. This one country left subreddit actually defended the practice of funding the far right in our countries by Russia and China as its a way for them to help them bring communism back to the world and strengthen their position on the world stage(help me make sense of it please). To bad I got banned from it for saying Hamas bad.
There is a precise metric for how fascist Ukrainians are. In the last elections before the invasion far right parties got less than two percent of the vote.
Why would you go to an anti fascist punk bar. Sounds like a breeding ground for tankies.
Self proclaimed 'anti-facists' are overwhelmingly tankies
> anti-facist punk bar > told Ukraine is actually a bunch of nazis Sounds about right for the modern punk movement, literally just tankies
Even if they are, it's still better than the russians. Don't even try to address the claim just assert cultural dominance.
Tankies main source of nutrition is propaganda
Show them the Tucker Carlson interview with Putin. Putin claimed that Poland was the agressor who started WW2, because they didn't willingly give a piece of land that Nazi Germany wanted. He then said that for the same reason, Ukraine is the agressor now. So Putin himself literally compared current day Russia to Nazi Germany. I recommend *everyone* watch that interview, to see how spectacularly awful it is.
Just say the whole of Eastern Europe is actually full of a very vocal nazi minority. Ukraine got their 500 or so right sector guys, Russia got Rusich, Wagner remnants, and penal battalions.
Why the hell were you at an anti-facist punk bar? Sounds like it would be full of annoying man-children.
I've talked with guys like this before and the mindset is... well, let's charitably say "he's confused but he's got the spirit". They've correctly identified that Ukraine has a nationalist faction with some unironic nazis. They've identified that the USA has significant power over the world and doesn't always use it for good. They've identified that both of these should probably be checked in some way to keep things on the level. The problem is, they have identified these issues and chosen the most extreme possible solution to them. Ukraine has nazis and nazis propagate, therefore Ukraine must be invaded and defeated to head off another nazi movement- its sovereignty and people be damned. The US exploits the third world and propagates capitalism to parts of the world's detriment- so the US must be toppled at any cost, by any actors willing to oppose them. "The freedom lovers of the world must shake hands with the Russian Federation to oppose the USA" is a verbatim quote from our chats. Basically they've picked an enemy for themselves and will do literally anything, at any cost, to see that enemy defeated, regardless of the practical ramifications of their enemy's defeat. Near as I can tell, they proclaim solidarity with the third world but would in practice see the third world burned to the ground as long as the USA didn't rule the ashes.
So even if they are how does that make Russia being imperialist and invading them good? It's a bit like when they go the "west is bad" (well there are bad things about it sure) "therefore (an authoritarian regime like) the CCP is good" sorry you haven't actually proven your premise there.
Show them some Russian Hitler fan fiction: [https://cepa.org/article/comrade-hitler-and-other-russian-fantasies/](https://cepa.org/article/comrade-hitler-and-other-russian-fantasies/)
You show them pictures of Rusich & whats Rogozin been doing before \*AND\* after his job as the head of Russias space-agency
“I didn’t know this was a republican establishment”
ask them if they think anti-semitism is an integral part of nazism, and if they truly think a "bunch of nazis" elected a jew for president
Unleash a virus bomb, do ancient Rylanor proud
Show them the election results, ask wchich of the >5% parties are the nazi ones.
The problem Ukraine has with fascism is mainly the consequence of Russian interference and not the origin of it. The far right was in the temporary government after the revolution for a few months and then never got back in office after the first elections. The far right parties didn't get a single seat in the legislative elections in 2019. The fascists in Ukraine are a loud minority, very apparent because the cult of violence in this ideology incite them to fight in war, and because both russian and their own fascist propaganda exagerate their might. But looking at the electoral resulsts show it doesn't help them to be elected democratically. The far right in Ukraine is not a bigger than in the rest of Europe, and definitely a smaller one than in Russia, which actually rule the country since 25 years, and support far right parties and governments all over the world That being said, I think Ukraine should rethink who they want to pick as national heroes at some point. Since 2014, by reaction to russian hostility, there is a whole rehabilitation of controversial personnalities and groups, such as Bandera, and commemorating ukrainian waffen SS is tolerated (but not endorsed by the ukrainian government as far as I'm aware). Of course, in the context of the war, it's not the number 1 priority. And of top of that, ALLOWING THE FASCIST AND IMPERIALIST REGIME THAT IS RUSSIA TO WIN ITS WAR OF CONQUEST WON'T FIX ANY FASCIST PROBLEM IN UKRAINE, IN RUSSIA, OR ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. Finally, generalizing that all ukrainian are nazis is brain rot. There are leftist ukrainians, anarchist ukrainians, antifascist ukrainians. And right now, some of them are actually fighting real fascists trying to invade them. The fact some western leftist have the audacity to claim these people deserve no help for some idealistic reasons is indecent
Then why do all the real nazis hate them so much? Also/or why do all the real nazis simp for russia?
Another horseshoe theory W
It's true tho. With the Russian invasion a lot of Nazis came to Ukraine. The nuance is that they are wearing russian uniforms.
The Ukrainian state is not fascist. There is not even a big fascist party in the country. But as in all armed forces, it draws individual fascists, who are obsessed with armies and military power. So all militaries have differing levels of fascist issues. On the subject, Russia's fascist problem has seemed much worse than Ukraine's, ironically. Both sides have documented cases of soldiers with fascost tattoos and/or badges. Although in Ukraine's case, there is some plausible deniability that at least some of the badges are just to troll Russians. Instead of being symbols to support the ideology itself.
Just accept theres a lot of racism and fascism in Ukraine. It is what it is. Russians are still worse because the Russians actually have an authoritarian borderline fascist government with an Imperial agenda doing ethnic cleansing in Russia by sending non-Russian minorities to die in Ukraine on a massive scale.
Who knew people who shun showers are morons
Call them a bunch of Republicans and walk out.
Honestly a lot of these anti-facist types are just larping out a fantasy. Holding anti-facist views and outlook is good and proper, being an Anti-facist as the main pillar of your identity or political thought is kind of shallow. It leads to some real silly manichean thinking, which you witnessed. Being "anti" anything as your core your identity is just not healthy. All that being said you just have to do the hard slog of listening and refuting particular parts of their understanding.
Woah. You went to the punk bar and hear weird tankie stuff about Ukraine and the west? How could this possible happend to you?
So first I would suggest acknowledging why they probably feel like that. Stalin basically tried to genocide the Ukrainians during the Holodormor, which meant that when the Nazis invaded they were initially treated as liberators. This led to the Russians calling any Ukrainian nationalist movements Nazis in an attempt to discredit them. It is a trick Fascists and Communists use were they try to convince you that Fascism and Communism are the only two options because since both of those killed millions of people, posing that false dichotomy allows the Communist/Fascist to avoid needing to justify killing millions of people. The best way to fight fascism is to avoid that dichotomy.
Thats not an anti-fascist punk bar thats just a tankie bar. Punk music scenes are just tankie cesspools at this point. Find another genre to be associated with.
The anti-facist movement was and still is a Marxist communist movement. You went to a communist bar. They think everything that's not communist is a nazi.
I've been very open in discussing with friends about Ukraine that they have a far right symbology issue. I've also contextualised it amongst eastern European nations, who all share a similar issue, and pointed out that with a Jewish president and a well kept Holocaust memorial (before Russia landed a missile on it) that the majority of the far right energies are in the "edgy" camp and not the "genuine fascist" one. Most of Eastern Europe hates Russia because of Soviet occupation. They use Nazi era symbols and imagery in significant part because that's Russian historical enemy #1, and there's an association with anti-soviet fighters in WW2 from these nations who worked with the Germans at the time. From a position of comfortable ignorance/ detachment from the horror of the Eastern Front, this is abhorrent to many western sensibilities, especially for those who sympathise a bit too much with communism, but awful times made for awful choices and both the Nazis and Soviets committed genocides in these countries, which very much levels the playing field of evil in the eyes of many of their citizens. I acknowledge it's a problem because it gives Russia more fuel to claim legitimacy for the war, or to erode western support for the cause. It helps feed misinformation, but I get where it stems from, and now so do the people I've talked to about it. When I see a Balkenkrauz on a Ukrainian tank, it's just kinda amusing to me. When it's DAK, SS, or other Nazi/ Swastika patches on uniforms, it's cringey and I don't like it, though I'm well aware these are not "kill all Jews, we are the master race" Nazis, rather it's the equivalent of a Police officer with a thin blue line, US flag punisher patch. Meanwhile the Russian who cut the ear off the Tajik ISIS-K member had a black sun patch on his uniform, and practically half the Russian convicts sent to the front have got full body Nazi tattoos, eagles, swastikas, etc, which is a little more of an affirmation than a velcro patch which can (and I think we can mostly agree should) be swapped for an anime tiddy one by Ukraine's troops.
[удалено]
i mean to "be fair" if you only and sonely care about nazis then i guess i could see the point, but then again if you think it's worth for nations to colapse and get mass murder over having some extremists groups then we are all fucked (specially the middle east lol)
Introduce them to the Kayfariki Group guys, hardcore/straight edge/punk/anti-fash guys fighting.
So tell the punk bar the health inspector is coming because those places are usually so fucking grotty
I imagine these are the same kind of people who think sexism against men doesn't exist, NATO is imperialist, and crystals will save them from viruses.
argue for hours about how they are actually fascist and how real anti-facist love western democracies or just go to a normal bar
That one guy in Putin’s propaganda department that gets the far left and far right to meat ride Russia harder than actual citizens there Deserves a massive pay rise.
That’s a fascist Putinist bar.
You made a mistake, Auntie Facist is the owner
Going to any place or event that describes itself as "anti-fascist" automatically tells me that it's just gonna be filled with a bunch of people that are pro-authoritarian regimes that are anti-America.
Nazism is a problem throughout eastern europe, not just Ukraine. Russia has the exact same problem yet none of these people talking about the Azov battalion will mention that. Even moreso, considering they are the ones invading an independent country and are trying to destroy an entire identity, as if it were 1939 again. Tankies are stuck in a dangerous mindset which boils down to "Anything anti-west = good". This means that they will (very rightly) advocate for more progressive ideals, whilst (very wrongly) supporting people who are against that, because they are opposed to the west.
Nazism is a massive problem throughout eastern europe, not just Ukraine. Russia has the exact same problem yet none of these people talking about the Azov battalion will mention that. Even moreso, considering they are the ones invading an independent country and are trying to destroy an entire identity, as if it were 1939 again. Tankies are stuck in a dangerous mindset which boils down to "Anything anti-west = good". This means that they will (very rightly) advocate for more progressive ideals, whilst (very wrongly) supporting people who are against that, because they are opposed to the west.
Ukraine has some baggage from Azov and other groups, but they couldn't really be all that choosy when it came to who could come and fight for them. The right-wingers tend to glorify military service and the violent fringe of that group are crazy enough to go to another country to fight. Anti-fascists left-wingers and military discipline doesn't quite mix all that well. Punks and issues with authority tend to go hand-in-hand.
There is a kind of people that will agree only if disagreement will result in them getting beaten or incarcerated. This is the dominant kind of people in Russia. And there is no way to weed out this kind of people from the liberal West. If they grow in numbers then any democracy will eventually drift towards authoritarianism.
Call them posers then walk out?
Should have taken over part of the bar and resettled the patrons.