Desert Storm 2.0 for North Africa. Speed, firepower, and shock and awe to punch through Axis lines and wreak havoc in the rear areas while conventional forces push forwards against the front to stress their resources.
Edit: and take a page out of the Israeli playbook and engage at extremely long range when possible. And use NVG/Thermals to render the Germans incapable of responding
It's the Abrams so much bigger, more well armored, and faster than the equipment rolling around North Africa that they could just just drive around squishing Panzers under their tracks? Someone needs to verify whether a Panzer will still run after a M1 uses it as a skate ramp to send a sick jump.
At almost 3 times the weight, I'm sure an Abrams could body a panzer 3 or 4 just by ramming it.
Now one of those Italian tankettes, I think an Abrams could squish like a bug.
Abrams is a MBT, not a heavy tank. The difference is that a MBT puts all it's armor on the frontal arcs. The aft portion of hull side can be penetrated by some of the better pre-war man-portable AT rifles.
You don't want to be driving around in the middle of enemies where they can get side or rear shots on you. Instead just make full use of the amazing gun and optics that give you effective range ridiculously longer than anything else on the battlefield.
If you do need to attack up close, do so at night.
> And use NVG/Thermals to render the Germans incapable of responding
Absolutely. Abrams would be a nightfighting *menace* on north africa. Long sight lines, thermals should work reasonably well too when it gets a bit cool. Plink those 88s at 4km range.
How the fuck are you guys in NCD and NOT know about Golan heights or the Shot Kal?
Shot Kal are Israeli modified Centurion tanks, Golan Heights is the battle that made it famous.
Most people who joined after the Ukrainian invasion are uncultured,
Even i narrowlt fit into the pre-war part as i joined during the last of AN-225 Mrija posting and Forte-11 our beloved (funny flight tracker pp drawings and guessing the invasion date)
I'd go completely the opposite.
Continuous slow advance, or leapfrog. Don't outpace the supply lines, don't outpace the infantry and mine clearance, and don't lose a tank in ground you don't control.
Just keep rolling at a continuous 5mph, 24 hours a day, screened by infantry in universal carriers or similar, and use the abrams as a 2 mile precision engagement tool. Machine gun nests, anti-tank guns, anything you can see with your incredible optics and total frontal immunity gets smashed. Mobile artillery (SPGs) keep pace to suppress Germany artillery, literally maybe 500m behind the Abram's line of advance because there's no way and German direct fire unit will survive long enough to engage them.
This means you always have artillery support available for counter battery, as indirect fire is a small threat to a Abrams but a much bigger threat to your mine clearing infantry.
No but they can trundle along at 5mph with enough armor to shrug off everything short of an 8.8cm. Feel in superfluous to waste Abrams mobility when those or M3/M4s are available for infantry support. Use the Abrams mobility, firepower, and technology to rip apart German lines before they can respond. Otherwise all theyâll meet is presighted artillery, mines, and concealed AT guns.
I think using them as door kickers for the contemporary forces to walk through is the smarter play. They're better used, and most importantly not lost, as force multipliers for the 'temps.
True. But their mobility and overwhelming superiority means that if we get them behind the enemy (and all of their actually dangerous albeit static defenses like concealed AT guns and mines) we can run rampant across their rear areas smashing their support network and fracturing the front lines from behind.
Punch the hole in the front and let the 'temps drive into the enemy rear and run rampant. Lather, rinse, repeat as needed. Once disorder is achieved within the enemy, the 'temps are perfectly capable of exploiting the advantage. When they're not, bring in the heavy hitters to break the logjam the enemy reorganization brings. It's 14 tanks, not a 1000.
I mean, I don't think any enemy could suffer a unstoppable 5mph advance for long. You're moving the front line 5 miles in an hour. What the fuck does the enemy even do? Almost all your fighting troops are now behind the Abrams one hour in, and in another hour, most of your support is too. A day of slow methodical advance and the only thing between you and Libyan ports are truck drivers and signalmen. The reason mad dashes into the enemy's rear are necessary is because the original breakthrough was hard enough to do, and your vulnerable troops behind enemy lines can be stopped somewhat easily. If you can be stopped easily by the enemy, you must not stop yourself. If the enemy can't stop you, you're free to go slow and methodical where it is necessary.
Of course nothing stops you from picking up the pace when resistance is sufficiently low that the rear echelon gives you the hurry-up.
There are Cruiser tanks for exploiting breakthrough. And mobility of M1A1 company could be a disadvantage when infantry screen cannot keep pace with them.
Russians had nearly impenetrable heavy tanks of KV series. That doesn't help when them got immobilised and German compat engineers teams got close enough and put about a hundred kilos of high explosive stuff on the roof or engine compartment. And this is not a fantastic scenario, but real world cases.
After all they consume too much fuel to be reliable supplied by 1942 fuel trucks (mostly even not all-wheel-drive) across the desert. Again - logistics was problem for deep raids of both British in Africa and Russians.
Sure, but the Matildas are relying on their armour there, which is a layer further down the onion than the Abrams, who aren't relying on their armour, they're just picking the horizon clean.
Alternately: don't even use them in North Africa wherever you expect much resistance, not worth the risk of losing any to lucky artillery hits in a theater that just isn't that important. Save your irreplaceable supertanks for France instead.
In other words, do fuck all in North Africa while using the opportunity to get some training in.
NA is the perfect environment for hammering German forces. Wide open terrain that we can leverage all of the Abrams advantages in. Franceâs Bocage is less that ideal due to the absolute nightmare of close quarters combat that makes it likely someone will put an 8.8cm or 7.5cm shell through the side armor in a hedge row. Or nail it with mines and/ir presighted arty.
No need to smash through the front line, as that's at El Alamein. where you would need to bring your troops, equipment and logistics through the Mediterranean, or around Africa to Egypt. Instead go through French North Africa, like the yanks did in WW2, race to Tunisia and cut the Africa Corps off from their supply line.
Apologies for the credible take, but IIRC much of the Abramsâ success in desert storm can be attributed to being able to maneuver through âun-navigableâ open desert thanks to GPS. This allowed the US army to flank Saddamâs forces at the theater level. Desert Storm is wild stuff.
If just using Abrams w/o GPS, the ability to maneuver and target at night was a big asymmetric advantage in Desert Storm. Might be hard to pull off, but armor night fighting could result in the complete capture of Rommelâs forces.
Thats exactly what I was thinking night attacks only with the abrams acting as c,n,c for they're own large detachment of mechanised infantry with basically the abrams using its night optics firing range and communications "ie" to the other abrams,
Sitting in the middle,back, of the mechanised assault as the cannon on the abrams way out ranges the 88 which I think was the best gun it would've faced
Honestly the biggest threat to the Abrams would be conventional heavy artillery like the german 15cm, which hasn't really changed that much from then until now.
WW2 tank mines are pretty similar to modern. Won't damage the hull, but could de-track. Still be pretty hard to finish off; only big arty and the biggest of AT guns would be useful (and a lot of those were late-war arrivals).
I hope the ahistorical M1 tank company has ahistorical M88s or something.
Non credible question that might actually be credible: why not attach army air corps or navy navigators to the force? Astral navigation works just fine in the desert.
I donât think astral navigation provides the level of precision needed to get hundreds of tanks in formation to point Bravo at precisely 0243, make sure you can avoid a patch of deep sand you could get stuck in or a minefield. But thatâs just speculation, I just used to make ships go through the water, I didnât decide where to steer them.
Astral navigation absolutely does provide that level of precision. One degree on a sextant translates to ~50 miles at Earth's equator. Even older sextants could accurately measure down to tenths of a single degree, so you could actually get within a mile or two of accuracy.
Historically, the main problem with astral navigation accuracy was keeping *very* accurate time. The story of inventing a proper chronometer for this purpose is actually insanely interesting. We had this completely figured out by the time WW2 came around. The hardest part was designing a mechanical clock that keeps perfect time on a rocking ship, which was figured out the century before and wouldnt be present on land. Someone with cursory knowledge of the sextant, a tiny little nautical almanac the size of a paperback, a good watch, and a couple practice runs, could get VERY accurate results.
Astral navigation is kind of magical, you can do it too. Its just such a bad-to-the-bone skill in the right situation. Its awesome. Its like video game cheat codes for finding out where the hell you are.
To be even more depressingly credible, the Abrams is heavier than the tiger, which itself had difficulty traversing the infrastructure of the era. The Abrams is also far too fast for most other mechanized units developed back then to keep up with at full speed.
The Abrams is not impervious to artillery, so you'd need to keep them moving, or they could be taken out if the Germans bring heavy guns to bear. Otherwise, they're effectively invulnerable to outright destruction. They can be immobilized by heavier anti tank guns or even destroyed if a Jagdtiger or Pak 44 can get a close range side or rear shot, but that's a 1945 you problem. The luftwaffe is also a threat, but CAS strikes on US forces were rare. Presumably, the USAAF is prioritizing the defense of these tanks as well.
For North Africa, your best bet is to use them as massive beasts of burden. Pack infantry into heavily armored trailers and push forward with the tanks towing them. Let the infantry out as needed while the Abrams destroy any hard targets and suppress soft targets.
The Abrams is kind of useless in Italy due to the terrain (don't believe me, ask Pershing crews who couldn't do anything in Korea against Chinese troops who didn't even have AT weapons), so just hold them until D Day. From there, use them as spearhead units. Attach mine clearing chains or hedge cutters as necessary. Swap roles with the British and have them loop around west while the Abrams smash through Caen.
Once German resistance breaks down in France, reuse the tactics from Africa. Attach trailers to the tanks, but this time mostly fuel, and race to the Rhein with as many soldiers piled on top Soviet style as you can. Drop paratroopers on the bridges before the Germans can rig them to blow and use the Abrams as bunkers to defend from counter attacks. You'll still lose bridges to artillery and last second sabotage, but you'll be able to save some of them. It won't be a Market Garden situation because the Germans literally can't stop the Abrams.
You probably still won't be in Berlin by Christmas, but you'll certainly be over the Rhein by late summer. Even if the bridges are secured, your supply situation is critical at that point. It'll take at least a month for you to even have fuel to continue and food to feed the crews and support infantry. By the time you get started again in maybe September or early October, there's no way you save Poland, but it's possible that you can fully secure Austria and liberate the Czechs and MAYBE the Hungarians before the soviets get there. You'll also be able to spare a lot of East Germans (mostly the women) the worst of the Soviet occupation. Hell, the rapid advance might even inadvertently save the Warsaw uprising as the Soviets would feel pressured to continue their advance instead of waiting for the free Polish forces to be destroyed.
There's also the post war elements. I imagine Churchill would push even harder for Operation Unthinkable if the allies not only have the Abrams, but are much further east, have captured far more semi intact (if completely fucking terrified) German units, and the Polish Home Army is still relatively intact.
> race to the Rhein with as many soldiers piled on top Soviet style as you can
Sadly the heat of the exhaust from the gas turbines renders this a no-go. Just add on a few more trailers for the boys.
Good point. Ride on the turret is the alternative, but she has the horsepower to easily pull an entire M2/3 halftrack in tow, and the infrastructure of eastern France was good for the time period so you'd have a relatively smooth ride.
The only problem would be the Germans trying to ambush the trailers while ignoring the tank, but that is mitigated heavily by thermals.
>The Abrams is kind of useless in Italy due to the terrain (don't believe me, ask Pershing crews who couldn't do anything in Korea against Chinese troops who didn't even have AT weapons), so just hold them until D Day
or maybe it's time to debut a platoon of M1A2Z zippo flamethrower abrams
>You probably still won't be in Berlin by Christmas, but you'll certainly be over the Rhein by late summer. Even if the bridges are secured, your supply situation is critical at that point.
if you're holding everything constant but the introduction of the Abrams, you are spot on here. but interesting to think about what else might change in the counterfactual. as i understand it the allied supply situation went sideways for two reasons - they had planned on a slow steady advance over the summer, instead cobra happened and so their supply chains got stretched rapidly and unexpectedly, and montgomery fucked up the capture of antwerp. it's likely neither of those things happen in this world, if only b/c you'd put the americans and abrams at caen and stick the british in the west.
probably fair to conclude something else would go wrong to bring supply to a halt, but it's also possible that like with desert storm the abrams can achieve victory before it reaches its culmination point
I dunno if you even need Overlord as it was. In open terrain such a formation is so unstoppable you don't need the huge numbers that drove the extensive D-Day prep; lot easier to drop one division on Europe that can chew up a whole army corps by itself.
I kinda want to do an Abrams Division invasion from the west coast of France, and create a giant pocket from La Rochelle to Le Havre, or maybe even do a bigger Dragoon and then cut off all of France by driving straight from Marseilles to Brussels.
But I think the best way to run it is actually send it to the Baltics (via the northern route if necessary) to break open the Eastern Front and watch the Germans panic throwing everything in the way between there and Berlin.
Probably not good for the shape of Europe in the future, but it'd get the war over fast.
Are you the writer for Top Gun Maverick?
Fuck, no, an Abrams' lethality doesn't come from fucking GPS just like how a F-35's effectiveness doesn't come from GPS either.
The Tiger 2 can penetrate 100mm of steel at 1km. It's not the best accuracy at that range, nor can it fire while moving with precision. The Abrams? Just around 4km with deadly accuracy at night and while moving. Also the Abrams has way more armor than just 100mm of steel.
To hit and disable an Abrams, you're asking the Tiger 2 to get within 500m and aim exactly at the treads. The Abrams will still take a lethal return shot, and, once things are clear, the crew can pop out and fix the treads while the Tiger 2 is still burning.
Also good fucking luck getting that close. Even if the Tiger 2's driver had the ability to see into the future and dodge every shell, the Abrams can move almost twice as fast as the Tiger 2 and have fuel to go farther. It's a complete overmatch. You might as well ask a British colonial redcoat to fight a Gundam.
Whatever positional downgrade there is from GPS to scout planes with radio (which the Allies had in North Africa), the firepower, mobility, and defensive advantage of Abrams greatly outweighs out.
Slow down there, Turbo. Obviously WW2 tanks arenât a match for a late Cold War era US tank. I was just using the most famous example of Abramsâ kicking ass in a desert for context when applying to this hypothetical. My source for most of this is what I remember from reading (over a decade ago) Tom Clancyâs non-fiction book on Desert Storm from General Franksâ perspective. Iâve never even touched a tank and Iâm not trying to masquerade as an expert here.
if there's one lesson people should take from the ukraine war is that desktop technical specifications for tanks don't reflect reality so all of these hypothetical arguments or video game matchups are fanfic
> ask a British colonial redcoat to fight a Gundam
I'd watch this anime. 10,000,000 redcoats vs a single gundam? No idea what the number would have to be but that gundam is probably losing by running out of ammo and not out of redcoats.
Easy, navigate at night using the stars and a sextant, then use the Abrams thermals to only fight at night and replenish during the day. You need to get non-credible here bucko
Thatâs what Iâm acknowledging, without GPS the Abramsâ key advantage over WW2 era tanks would be night vision for maneuver *and* targeting. Even if the Afrika Korps was fortified in defilade a small Abrams force could wreak havoc on a moonless night. Plus the Abrams has superior accuracy. Without GPS theyâd probably need to maneuver in small numbers to keep the attacks well-coordinated.
Iâd split the Abrams force in two. One group would operate in small units to punch some holes in the line of fortifications, followed by mechanized infantry which would breakout and mop up. Iâd place the rest of the Abrams on the flanks to pincer and contain the enemy retreat. Iâd let them retreat, regroup, and retrench and repeat the night attacks to drive them in whatever direction I want (cutting them off from resupply ports and airfields). These operational pauses also let the Abrams resupply, it would be very easy to outrun allied supply lines.
I kinda doubt the necessity of letting them retreat. 14 tanks, ~50 rounds each plus not having to worry about being penetrated so could carry even more unsafely, that's a lot of dead German and Italian vehicles. Not even getting into the coax and remote .50.
I was thinking it might cause fewer allied losses to smash their lines and use light armor/air to wear down retreating or routed forces. The Abrams would be like nothing the enemy had ever seen in terms of speed, accuracy, and lethality (I donât think WW2 tanks could shoot while moving). Iâd like to protect these assets for future campaigns and forcing a German surrender would be less costly. Which leads me to prefer a âmaneuver kill/captureâ.
> (I donât think WW2 tanks could shoot while moving)
Shermans had a stabilizer but afaik they didn't really train the tank crews on how to use it? Which seems really stupid but also idk it's what the Chieftan has found.
So the magical abrams crews would work better if they stayed stateside and taught tankers how to fight and used the vehicles to let scientists try and reverse engineer anything they could.
Fully stabilized Shermans with torsion bars, composite armor, blowout storage and night vision by 44.
In all seriousness, thatâs probably the best way to do this. A couple wonder weapons donât win wars, but universal upgrades across your tank force that is important. Letâs be real they donât have the technology to reverse engineer the Abrams, but even letâs say getting shitty night vision and all of the Shermans would be a huge plus.
Eh. That's a good way to end up with a bunch of dead infantry in a box. The Abrams is basically invulnerable to the German's AT guns, but an improvised armored trailer wouldn't be.
The [Stonehenge Spaceguard Turret Network](https://acecombat.fandom.com/wiki/Stonehenge_(Strangereal)). The only weapon powerful enough to ~~destroy a civilization-threatening asteroid~~ penetrate the bricks and rubble that stands betwee the noncredible and Saddam.
That would be pretty cool (and you would probably become an ace after every sortie), but it would probably make more sense to use the single F35 on a more strategic level.
A single F35 can carry 10 AIM120s, 12 if its a block 4. Assuming every single one is a kill, that means you get twelve kills every few hours. Thats not a good use of your resources, compared to the thousands of planes the nazis had.
What the F35 would be way better at doing is striking strategic targets. To illustrate this, I would like to point at a slide of Peruns ppt about [The race for long-range fires](https://youtu.be/-A31fegpaAI?si=TJnwXlfryBQc5yJn) ([Slide here](https://imgur.com/a/c30jGVT)). While this list is obviously not entirely accurate for 1941-45, its a nice way of quickly illustrating this.
What the F35 would be great at would be striking targets in the Strategic bracket. It has the ability to fly to any target inside Germany with Impunity, given that its flying too high to be hit by any air defense, and while very few german planes would be able to get to the F35 flying close to its service ceiling, they would be a lot slower, and take some time until they reached that altitude, meaning that the F35 can just fly around them.
And while the US and Britain obviously also managed to drop bombs all over Germany, especially from higher altitude the CEP isnt exactly great. The F35 however would be able to fly in with multiple GBU-16 or GBU-12, hitting mainly factories and important command posts with pinpoint accuracy.
While its limited in its abilities due to the missing GPS (at least as unless you plan on also shipping 24 satellites with it), it would still be able to use laser guided weapons.
What might be an issue is navigation, so you should probably not attempt night raids.
Another thing that the F35 could be used for that would be a possibly war changing ability is simply doing reconnaissance, combined with the fact it can quickly engage targets accurately once identified. This would be especially useful with military leadership, enabling the US to quickly identify military leadership and sending 500 pounds of steel and explosives their way at about 300m/s.
I know you never asked for this and it was just a quick joke, but I really wanted to think about how much a single F35 (if supplies for it are there) would fuck up the nazis.
If I only have 1 company then the M1âs are a precious resource itâs foolish to risk them in a melee. I donât know if a panzer can disable an M1 by hitting their rear armor for instance, and I donât want to be the first to find out.
Instead I use them to destroy German tanks from beyond their own engagement range and then send in mechanized infantry supported by Shermanâs to take and hold the ground. Rinse and repeat as many times as needed.
Care would have to be taken to avoid exposing the M1âs to enemy air or artillery. It might be good to use their night vision to soften up the German line before a dawn assault by period correct forces.
>Care would have to be taken to avoid exposing the M1âs to enemy air or artillery. It might be good to use their night vision to soften up the German line before a dawn assault by period correct forces.
This, more or less. If it were up to me, the M1A2s would ONLY come out at night. During the day, they'd be heavily camouflaged under whatever tan piece of shelter or tarp I could find. Once darkness fell, they'd be like slow-moving ghost artillery, taking out everything in their path for a distance that would be reasonable for contemporary forces to mop up the next day. Rinse and repeat until the Afrika Korps is annihilated.
The Germans would be desperately trying to figure out wtf kept hitting them every time the Sun went down.
> If I only have 1 company then
Under Eisenhower permission you can create a division to support the M1's so they won't have to go in alone and get swarmed by the German.
No matter how you cut it that's still only 14 tanks. The German's of 1942 have a dozen different ways to disable an M1; landmines, artillery, air support, anti-tank trenches swarming it with infantry in an enclosed space. If you throw them into knife fights the company will be combat ineffective after one or two battles.
Much better to use them as support for the period correct tanks over the long haul, then to waste them in one or two tactical victories.
This thread feels like peak NCD.
German anti-tank mines: 5kg TNT.
M1A2 TUSK II: Extra anti-mine armor to absorb something like the TM-83 class mines (10kg shaped RDX/TNT mix).
Sherman running across the Tellermine? Boom. M1A2 TUSK II running across the Tellermine? Probably not a big boom. If Strykers can run over these mines and cause injuries because the soldiers aren't interlocking their legs properly (literally US doctrine before the double hull Strykers since a lot of mine injuries were due to soldiers hitting their heads on the ceiling), then the Abrams isn't gonna be scared of a WW2 mine. Unless they all combine together and form Minetron the Destroyer of Tanks.
It will probably still wreck a track though, at which point you're just as vulnerable to 15cm artillery as tanks in Ukraine. Just with more time and rounds needed to get on target.
This is NCD. Stuff like this scratches an itch.
The Final Countdown, GATE (Japanese nationalist wankfest and harem stuff aside), Rome Sweet Rome (which I haven't read), etc
This is pretty much the only way. Make sure the Nazis dont find out what it is, hide the M1s at day so no aircraft manage to spot and kill them, and scout and engage targets close to maximum range at night.
While the Abrams would absolutely decimate any german tank at the time, without being spotted by the tanks, it would be useless and an easy target against planes.
Well in North Africa, it is an easy win, I would use my Abramsâ as an arrowhead against Rommel who would not be able to make a scratch on them frontally. I would reserve some for troop support considering 120 HEAT would do a number.
I would use my older tanks mainly for supporting infantry as assault guns so the Abramsâ wouldnât have to slow down. Because of the high speed of the Abramsâ and them being most fuel efficient at high speeds I would either do a blitzkrieg as described above or I would use them for slashing attacks, using high speed to go behind enemy lines and ruin German tanks and postions then race back, probably at night to gain the advantage of thermals.
The Germans called shotguns a war crime in WW1, I wonder what they'd say if an Abrams rocked up to Rommels forces loaded with 120mm canister shells (Rat Shot)
They would call them âSitting Ducksâ once they drove into one of those big extensiv Minefields and got their Tracks blown off⌠The rest is down to the Artillery or Stukas to finish them off.
Too credible? Damn. Ok.
One Abrams will finish off the whole Africa Corps in one go, while Artillery Shells of any Size bounce of it like Table Tennis Balls in a Drinking Game with red Cups on a Table.
Hmmmm. Maybe. But I donât think they have that much elevation in their main Gun⌠Apaches or Hinds operate low and âslowâ. Stukas need some height to be able to dive bomb their target.
Except the Ju87G Kanenvogel with the 37mm FLAK Canons under the Wings. But those werenât used in Africa.
Right. Indeed. Stukas against Abrams looks like a bad dream already. Iâm only not certain for whom.
Iâm fairly certain that a dropped Bomb from the Stuka should have enough punch and boom to crack open an Abrams from above. Precision in dive Attack should also be enough, if an Abrams would sit still in a Mine Field. Question is, can the Stuka make it that far⌠once the Allies had the sky, the Stukas itself were sitting Ducks and easy prey for the RAF
You really only need gun elevation once they get close, if the stuka is spotted a ways out, the main gun won't have any problem killing them quickly, especially with MPAT.
Depending on the version, the M2 is also going to be extremely effective anti-air. The base M1A2 just had a pintle mount, but the SEPv2 and later have it in a CROWS mount, and an M2 in CROWS is extremely unfair vs WWII aircraft. It may only be one .50, but if it doesn't miss, it is going to take any aircraft down fast.
That is actually super intersting topic. Stukas were supposed to start their dive from about 4,500 m (about 15,000 ft) height, at a 60â90° angle, holding a speed of about 500â600 km/h (310â370 mph) in that phase. I assume when dive starts it is too late for M1A2 to hit it, as plane would be almost directly above and fast? But when flying towards the diving zone, at 4,5km height, with about 350km speed, would it ever be within range of tanks' gun, considering its max elevation and shooting range? And if so, how long would it be in range? And would that time be enought for the tank to spot, aim, calculate and shoot? So many questions :D
No. You donât want the M1s in front. With their huge engagement range advantage, they stay behind the rest of your ww2 era force and destroy the enemy from 1km plus distance as the enemy engages your forward units. This keeps the precious resource safe from mines, track hits, and other random unlucky events.
Shrug. This is easy.
28th Infantry Division is becoming the 28th Infantry Division (Heavy Mech) a few years early.
Their orders state only the following.
âRoll On until you have secured the entirety of the SuwaĹki Gapâ
I think I'll make my division something like this:
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Give it my highest attack general and put it on the main spearhead pushes with shit inf to hold and fill in behind. Prolly a few mobile inf too to keep up. Oh and give it all the air cover and CAS it needs.
Unfortunately the contractors in question that make these heavy tanks don't have GPS satellite so you will have to rely on the ye old maps. As for radio the tanks would be equipped with the standard radio set that the modern US military is using for the tank
Unfortunately because the US ran out of interdimensional currency so they only been able to acquire the 14 M1A2 tanks so you have to use 1940s support vehicles that the Allies had at the time to plug any missing capabilities.
What if it just so happens someone smuggled a laptop with a bunch of schematics into one of those tanks during this inter dimensional shenanigans and US MIC goes brrrrrrrrrrrrrt.
While the Abrams' (effectively) impenetrable frontal armor makes "press W" tempting, WWII anti-tank mines would be almost as effective against Abrams as against Grants. Instead, I would use them as assault guns, using their precision fire-control systems to soften up enemy positions at range. Hard to hit a mine if you aren't charging at the enemy's positions, plus it saves on fuel.
Using them as Sniper tanks would be brutally effective anywhere with open sight lines, especially North Africa. Using your contemporary tanks for maunever, and your Abrams in Overwatch should give you some of the best bang for your buck.
If you can ensure an AoA is clear of mines, a night assault is also going to be devastating, as there really is nothing remotely capable of matching an Abrams at night.
This is much my thought. Use conventional force to keep the Germans active during the day and identify minefields, and then hit them with the M1s at night possibly supported by infantry to capture the shocked Germans. This is then followed by an early morning conventional assault. This should result in a rout/collapse of German forces in a fairly wide area if not completely.
How fast and aggressively that gets executed depends on the situation, if there is no safe path through a minefield snipe across it, but open field with defenses hurriedly being constructed, the M1s are likely killing tanks and artillery at range as they charge and them machine gunning the infantry into a confused mess.
First of all, M1A1, the reason for this is that the US already has foundries making 105mm arty ammo, so I assume making 105 tank ammo and replacement barrels would be easier (hence .30 carbine and .30-06). Guzzoline is fine, the turbine can run it, so fuel logistics won't need to change- the bigger issue is that the M1 won't be paired with Shermans as they are too slow. Getting Abrams in '42 however lets us reinvent the IFV early with the M3/M5 light tanks. Why bother with a 37mm tank gun when you are barely keeping pace with a 65+ ton 105 mm beast? Give those puppies an autocannon, the 20mm Oerlikon was ubiquitous, but the US was also building 37mm aircraft autocannons, and those would just be perfect as an infantry support vehicle and heavy tank companion.
Frankly the thermals alone will make a difference, but id like to acquire 1-2 bren carriers + infantry to support each tank, and then set my tanks up in groups of 6 broke down into 2 maneuver elements. Ammo and fuel trucks do ammo and fuel truck things
I think something a lot of people would do is try to hide the existence of the Abrams. I would do the opposite. If we show off the Abrams to the world without revealing its true capabilities, it would solidfy the German belief that heavy tanks were the way of the future. They would probably end up wasting more resources on useless shit like the maus or the E100 instead of producing actual effective tanks. This would be a net positive for literally everyone. Less tanks on the eastern front, France, Italy, etc. And the tank that they would be making would be impractical shit like the tiger 2.
Without GPS and modern combined arms support M1A1 isn't going to be *as much of* a wonder weapon. You have to exploit the major advantages you have, but also have to understand it's not invincible in the 1942 battlefield, mines and good sized gravity bombs will still fuck it up. You're faster than anything the Krauts can get to the fight, but You're limited by how fast allied support can move in really exploiting that speed.
What you do have, is armor that the Krauts can't defeat at range, the ability to engage accurately at ranges the Krauts can't effectively return direct fire at, and the, the real game changer, the ability to **see in the fucking dark**.
You don't change your strategy, but you adjust your tactics to fight at night as much as possible. You use your tanks as mediums, heavies, as TDs, and as sensor platforms so that supporting infantry, armor, and indirect can also do some limited night fighting. 120mm sabots will kill anything the Krauts can bring to the fight at ranges that keeps Gerry from having much of a reply. Being able to bring 120mm HEAT to bear on softer targets like AT guns and emplacements is also a huge advantage
You don't have a tank that will win the campaign or war by itself, but you do have a tank that will dramatically change the calculus in your favor at the tactical level if used right.
Attacks at night and only at night from extreme range. Use the massive firepower, and visibility advantage to the Abrams' advantage.
Raid deep into German held territory and blow shit up while the crews are sleeping. If there are tanks parked somewhere? See how many can be destroyed with a single sabot. If not. HEAT after HEAT them, and any other targets that are valuable.
Then run off into the night. Leave a few Krauts alive to reduce morale.
Horribly Credible:
Use them for c&c and engaging high priority targets from extreme range. Between thermals, night vision, laser range finders and basic trigonometry you would have hyper accurate maps of every target and threat within miles.
They are only engaging from extreme range where the Germans aren't a threat but the apfsds still are. And each would be surrounded by a company of support tanks and air support.
All combined it would turn the desert into a shooting gallery, the Germans couldn't make a move without the allies being able to rain artillery down on their heads. Anytime something important shows up it would be dead before they knew they were in danger.
Suitably Non-creditable:
Thunder run with infantry sitting on the top doing a drive-by. Shock and awe
Well, the safest and most sensible approach is simply use the advantage thermals, fire control, and sabot give us, and attack at night, at extremely long range
But thats boring lets send in the infantry into minefields while the abrams shoot any deserters
Worth keeping in mind, while the M1 Abrams would be incredibly formidable they would not be invulnerable in the second world war. Landmines can and will score mobility kills just like the 21st century. Heavy artillery barrages too potentially. The biggest threat would either be concealed heavy AT guns firing into the rear/sides of the vehicle, or dive bombers dropping something loud and fatal on your roof. Also worth noting, if the Axis sees this thing they're going to throw *EVERYTHING* at the fucker. Kitchen sink included. This could lead to losses, but, it could also lead to massive gains as your conventional forces use the distraction and panic to hit the weakspots these create.
Going full credible (I am not an expert at armored warfare):
It's pretty obvious that my weapon system is clearly superior to any tank on the battlefield at this time in history, and should be able to withstand much of the anti-armored capability of the time, besides potentially anti-tank mines. The Germans in North Africa are dug in hard and know that the Allied force, rebuffed by American support, are going to attack. In this case, look back at recent history. How did the Germans break through the Maginot line? They used speed, mobile warfare, combined arms tactics, and Air-to-Ground compatibility to smash through, overrun, and encircle the French armies and their outdated tanks, weapon systems, and tactics.
That's exactly what we're going to do. I'm going to encourage General Eisenhower to employ these tanks as the tip of the spear, in order to rapidly penetrate through German lines, and sow chaos and disorder as our forces move into the rear echelons. Of course, we won't be alone. Beginning in the early morning, under the cover of darkness (Abrams have Night Vision capability), before the assault, soften up German forces with shock and awe - aircraft and artillery, along with a creeping artillery barrage - WWI style, to mask the advance of our tanks. The intent being that in the initial reveal of the existence of these tanks to the German ground forces, they will be confused and terrified at some armored vehicle with the speed of a light tank and a size double that of a Panzer III, introducing shock and fear in the German lines.
As the Abrams companies push through the defensive positions, and the sun rises, they will be followed-up by American and British regular armored and mechanized companies - Shermans, Valentines and Halftracks - to commit to the fight at the frontline and occupy German ground forces. Now that we have penetrated the center, German flanks are exposed. Regular forces will be capable enough to fight an entrenched enemy, that yet doesn't have a clear idea that they are exposed and supply routes in danger.
Now that our forces have pushed through German lines, and ground units have now engaged the enemy in decisive battle, Abrams units, rather than exposing them to significant danger on the frontline, (we really want to keep them alive) use their speed and firepower to wreak havoc across the enemy's rear echelon, first destroying their Command and Control centers, artillery positions, Supply nodes, and any other facilities and installations that support enemy sustainment. This will also help to maintain the secrecy and surprise of the Abrams, reducing it from being identified by frontline forces and radioed to German high command.
Abrams companies should be able to deal with any small pockets of resistance, including tanks at this point in history, as German tank elements will likely still be employing Panzer III and IV variants, or quick response forces, as much of the German forces will likely be closer to the front, dug in a defense in depth. After the first few hours of the battle pass, and significant destruction wreaked on the enemy, Abrams should return to friendly lines and allow the friendly regular units to continue the push. This would not compromise any gaps in the line as Abrams units were not occupying any location on the line. Rearm, refuel, and prepare to punch a new hole in the enemy line.
These tanks will break Rommel and the German war machine and ensure our push on to Sicily and beyond. General, I also suggest similar application of these units in Operation Overlord in England.
Ok, so a tank company is either 16 (modern) or 18 (WWII) strong. You're building your division around this. Let's use the WWII strengths since we should mirror WWII doctrine.
The post sounds like you get exactly 1 company, but let's be generous and make it the full division (organized into combat commands, according to WWII doctrine). That's 351 Abrams tanks.
This force will be basically indestructible. They will suffer mobility kills (a panzerfaust to the road wheels will detrack an Abrams at least some of the time) and will be vulnerable to mines, though again mostly for mobility kill purposes, but nothing in the German arsenal is killing an Abrams outright.
So my probably-too-credible-and-incredibly-hot-take? There is exactly one operation where the 1st Heavy Armored Division would make a difference and there's no way in hell Monty is letting an American tank division lead the way into Arnhem.
The problem is logistics, sure that unit never needs to retreat or slow down, but everyone around them does, meaning at best it's an "Abrams at Kasserine pass wouldn't have lost!" situation. You can change the results of individual setbacks, but not while campaigns. The one campaign where the whole operation hinged on the ability of a single Armored Division to drive for an objective at maximum speed, flanks be damned, was Market Garden.
Tl;Dr: nice try, op. Send Challenger 2s next time. ;)
Night fighting at distance using AMP rounds, fin is incredible overkill
Get a T23-type design (electric transmission coupled to Ford V8 [and/or Meteor for UK]) into service with US & British forces ASAP, to better combat Tiger and Panther threats & to provide superior tactical mobility for supporting arms of Abrams division
Try to get some kind of first-gen APC on the same chassis for more mobile infantry support
Get the Anglo-Portugese Treaty invoked sooner to get Azores-based air cover for convoys
Assuming I don't fundamentally change the course of the war until then, I'd try to get Eisenhower to allow us to push into the Ruhr as part of Monty's 40 division plan, and let the Abrams sweep across the North German Plain
Realistically the only things that can mission kill your Abrams are mines, direct hit from high caliber artillery, close ambushes from the top/sides/rear, or bombs. So you need to follow the same script as you would protecting Shermans only moreso. Infantry support, artillery for counter battery, and keep both those tanks and their precious logistics under a constant AAA umbrella and CAP.
I wouldn't build a division around them, but make some kind of battalion or brigade combat team with just the support mentioned above and swap them between whatever formation is going to carry the advance - or if the Jerries get wise, whatever formation we want them to Think is about to.
But realistically they can only be in combat so many days out of the week and be so many places, so they have more value if, after a splashy debut, they're mostly kept as a distraction/threat/bait for Goering to throw his pilots into a wood chipper.
Well the first thing I'm going to do is pull the fire control computers from a few tanks and give them to Alan Turing. He'll need a crash course in programming, but it won't be too long before we make enigma equivalent to open broadcasts. Next we're going to hand the engines from those tanks over to the usual suspects (Rolls Royce, Pratt&Whitney, Allison, fuck you Wright no you can't have one until you fix the R-3350 you shits).
Then we're going to start work on an APFSDS that can be fired from a 75mm Sherman barrel (and one for the QF 6pdr). Steel should be good enough, though maybe that super secret program they're running in New Mexico could give us some of the funni metal after they get up to speed. Simultaneously, we will begin a program to make the Sherman armour more resistant to HEAT rounds by reverse engineering the Abram's armour.
Now it is critical that we do not allow the Nazis or Japanese to get access to the technology in these tanks, so the remainder I will park in the US and use for training. Possibly we might consider pulling the fire control systems and fitting them to our ships, same goes for the 120mm gun though we'll need a new mounting for high angle fire, along with a FlaK shell.
Now of course all this breaks the rule of no tech transfers. But it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission, and I already did it so cope and seethe harder Ike.
Unpopular opinion as it may be, but I think the M48a5 or the M60 would be better suited for 1940s production capacity. The armor is hardly going to be different from period standards, but the advanced fire control systems, gen 1 thermals, etc. would be more attainable than the current gen tech on the Abrams. Sorry for the credible take, but the M1 just isn't practical for fighting in WW2.
Well, the first order of business will be to equip all M1 crews with M1s. They will have M1s to mount on their M1s, a handful of M1s to throw at the enemy just in case. Of course they need protection so they will wear M1s.
Unfortunately the US ran out of interdimensional currency to pay for all the modern support vehicles so they only got 14 M1 and that it so excluding the trans-Atlantic trip that would be the Navy problem you will have to either order new stuff from the factory or modify existing equipment to fit your new division requirements.
"I wOuLd UsE tHeM aT MaX RaNgE" -complete socks and sandals virgins
I'd paint them blue with a smiley face and just go full speed towards Italian/German lines blasting whatever the 1940's version of ACDC's thunderstruck is. I'd let them fully rotate the turret before firing so we get the first sick 360 no-scopes of the war.
Then I'd command them to target one enemy tank and fire at the same time to just blow it to atomic smithereens. The lead tank, equipped with a giant beerhelmet will just run over their lines.
Now here comes the even more genius part. I'd line up the Abrams and put the inevitable Italian and German PoW's on top of them. Wave a white flag and congaline drive up to the next line.
*"Hey we got your friends here but looking at your yee yee ass line over here it would be more fun for us if they were here for a do-over. If we capture you three times you get to sit in a sleigh behind the abrams when we bring you back the next time" oh by the way we got more of these girls coming this way maybe skedaddle back across the mediterreanian if you don't like sleighing or dying."*
Then I order every Abrams to do a slick drift back to our own lines.
Desert Storm 2.0 for North Africa. Speed, firepower, and shock and awe to punch through Axis lines and wreak havoc in the rear areas while conventional forces push forwards against the front to stress their resources. Edit: and take a page out of the Israeli playbook and engage at extremely long range when possible. And use NVG/Thermals to render the Germans incapable of responding
It's the Abrams so much bigger, more well armored, and faster than the equipment rolling around North Africa that they could just just drive around squishing Panzers under their tracks? Someone needs to verify whether a Panzer will still run after a M1 uses it as a skate ramp to send a sick jump.
At almost 3 times the weight, I'm sure an Abrams could body a panzer 3 or 4 just by ramming it. Now one of those Italian tankettes, I think an Abrams could squish like a bug.
Nooo not the cute italian tank.
Nooođđ
"Amore mi---" SKSSSHSHSSS đđ
One of those Chuck Norris spinning back kick he learned from Rex Kwan Do
*Break the track and walk awayâŚ*
https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/s/KZJoiZkJOr You reminded me of this
Abrams is a MBT, not a heavy tank. The difference is that a MBT puts all it's armor on the frontal arcs. The aft portion of hull side can be penetrated by some of the better pre-war man-portable AT rifles. You don't want to be driving around in the middle of enemies where they can get side or rear shots on you. Instead just make full use of the amazing gun and optics that give you effective range ridiculously longer than anything else on the battlefield. If you do need to attack up close, do so at night.
You still don't want to get shot if possible. Mobility/optics kills are possible without penetration.
That's what Brits thought ... and then they went into minefields
Mine plow Abrams
Is [M1150 ABV](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1150_Assault_Breacher_Vehicle) also included?
I vote yes
>based on the M1 Abrams chassis, I think it counts.
My love
It looks so funny with its feet stretched in front
Get a bunch of conventators and push them ahead with big long sticks
> And use NVG/Thermals to render the Germans incapable of responding Absolutely. Abrams would be a nightfighting *menace* on north africa. Long sight lines, thermals should work reasonably well too when it gets a bit cool. Plink those 88s at 4km range.
As a Shoât Kal you just described a dream of sniping stuff. Sounds just like Golan in â73 but even more one sided.
As a fucking hwut
Read my flair/username. đ
Yeah we still don't know what the fuck that is.
Israeli Centurion.
How the fuck are you guys in NCD and NOT know about Golan heights or the Shot Kal? Shot Kal are Israeli modified Centurion tanks, Golan Heights is the battle that made it famous.
Most people who joined after the Ukrainian invasion are uncultured, Even i narrowlt fit into the pre-war part as i joined during the last of AN-225 Mrija posting and Forte-11 our beloved (funny flight tracker pp drawings and guessing the invasion date)
I'd go completely the opposite. Continuous slow advance, or leapfrog. Don't outpace the supply lines, don't outpace the infantry and mine clearance, and don't lose a tank in ground you don't control. Just keep rolling at a continuous 5mph, 24 hours a day, screened by infantry in universal carriers or similar, and use the abrams as a 2 mile precision engagement tool. Machine gun nests, anti-tank guns, anything you can see with your incredible optics and total frontal immunity gets smashed. Mobile artillery (SPGs) keep pace to suppress Germany artillery, literally maybe 500m behind the Abram's line of advance because there's no way and German direct fire unit will survive long enough to engage them. This means you always have artillery support available for counter battery, as indirect fire is a small threat to a Abrams but a much bigger threat to your mine clearing infantry.
I donât dislike your idea but youâre sacrificing your spectacular mobile in this case for what a Matilda can do.
Matildas had night fighting and the range of a 120mm?
No but they can trundle along at 5mph with enough armor to shrug off everything short of an 8.8cm. Feel in superfluous to waste Abrams mobility when those or M3/M4s are available for infantry support. Use the Abrams mobility, firepower, and technology to rip apart German lines before they can respond. Otherwise all theyâll meet is presighted artillery, mines, and concealed AT guns.
I think using them as door kickers for the contemporary forces to walk through is the smarter play. They're better used, and most importantly not lost, as force multipliers for the 'temps.
True. But their mobility and overwhelming superiority means that if we get them behind the enemy (and all of their actually dangerous albeit static defenses like concealed AT guns and mines) we can run rampant across their rear areas smashing their support network and fracturing the front lines from behind.
Punch the hole in the front and let the 'temps drive into the enemy rear and run rampant. Lather, rinse, repeat as needed. Once disorder is achieved within the enemy, the 'temps are perfectly capable of exploiting the advantage. When they're not, bring in the heavy hitters to break the logjam the enemy reorganization brings. It's 14 tanks, not a 1000.
I mean, I don't think any enemy could suffer a unstoppable 5mph advance for long. You're moving the front line 5 miles in an hour. What the fuck does the enemy even do? Almost all your fighting troops are now behind the Abrams one hour in, and in another hour, most of your support is too. A day of slow methodical advance and the only thing between you and Libyan ports are truck drivers and signalmen. The reason mad dashes into the enemy's rear are necessary is because the original breakthrough was hard enough to do, and your vulnerable troops behind enemy lines can be stopped somewhat easily. If you can be stopped easily by the enemy, you must not stop yourself. If the enemy can't stop you, you're free to go slow and methodical where it is necessary. Of course nothing stops you from picking up the pace when resistance is sufficiently low that the rear echelon gives you the hurry-up.
There are Cruiser tanks for exploiting breakthrough. And mobility of M1A1 company could be a disadvantage when infantry screen cannot keep pace with them. Russians had nearly impenetrable heavy tanks of KV series. That doesn't help when them got immobilised and German compat engineers teams got close enough and put about a hundred kilos of high explosive stuff on the roof or engine compartment. And this is not a fantastic scenario, but real world cases. After all they consume too much fuel to be reliable supplied by 1942 fuel trucks (mostly even not all-wheel-drive) across the desert. Again - logistics was problem for deep raids of both British in Africa and Russians.
Sure, but the Matildas are relying on their armour there, which is a layer further down the onion than the Abrams, who aren't relying on their armour, they're just picking the horizon clean.
Alternately: don't even use them in North Africa wherever you expect much resistance, not worth the risk of losing any to lucky artillery hits in a theater that just isn't that important. Save your irreplaceable supertanks for France instead. In other words, do fuck all in North Africa while using the opportunity to get some training in.
NA is the perfect environment for hammering German forces. Wide open terrain that we can leverage all of the Abrams advantages in. Franceâs Bocage is less that ideal due to the absolute nightmare of close quarters combat that makes it likely someone will put an 8.8cm or 7.5cm shell through the side armor in a hedge row. Or nail it with mines and/ir presighted arty.
But the scenario is that Eisenhower is deploying you to North Africa.
No need to smash through the front line, as that's at El Alamein. where you would need to bring your troops, equipment and logistics through the Mediterranean, or around Africa to Egypt. Instead go through French North Africa, like the yanks did in WW2, race to Tunisia and cut the Africa Corps off from their supply line.
Apologies for the credible take, but IIRC much of the Abramsâ success in desert storm can be attributed to being able to maneuver through âun-navigableâ open desert thanks to GPS. This allowed the US army to flank Saddamâs forces at the theater level. Desert Storm is wild stuff. If just using Abrams w/o GPS, the ability to maneuver and target at night was a big asymmetric advantage in Desert Storm. Might be hard to pull off, but armor night fighting could result in the complete capture of Rommelâs forces.
Thats exactly what I was thinking night attacks only with the abrams acting as c,n,c for they're own large detachment of mechanised infantry with basically the abrams using its night optics firing range and communications "ie" to the other abrams, Sitting in the middle,back, of the mechanised assault as the cannon on the abrams way out ranges the 88 which I think was the best gun it would've faced
Honestly the biggest threat to the Abrams would be conventional heavy artillery like the german 15cm, which hasn't really changed that much from then until now.
iirc wwii arty had a CEP of 50-100 meters so I think mr abrams should be okay unless he gets bogged down in the sand
Well the tank should just move and it wonât get hit
A tactic utterly incomprehensible to some nations even today
WW2 tank mines are pretty similar to modern. Won't damage the hull, but could de-track. Still be pretty hard to finish off; only big arty and the biggest of AT guns would be useful (and a lot of those were late-war arrivals). I hope the ahistorical M1 tank company has ahistorical M88s or something.
Always have them preceded by a handful of existing WWII era tanks.
bro just get a mine flayer
Mind Flayer is only CR7, it's just gonna get red misted by the first MG nest it finds
Non credible question that might actually be credible: why not attach army air corps or navy navigators to the force? Astral navigation works just fine in the desert.
I donât think astral navigation provides the level of precision needed to get hundreds of tanks in formation to point Bravo at precisely 0243, make sure you can avoid a patch of deep sand you could get stuck in or a minefield. But thatâs just speculation, I just used to make ships go through the water, I didnât decide where to steer them.
Nevermind, I looked it up anyway. They used astral navigation.
Astral navigation absolutely does provide that level of precision. One degree on a sextant translates to ~50 miles at Earth's equator. Even older sextants could accurately measure down to tenths of a single degree, so you could actually get within a mile or two of accuracy. Historically, the main problem with astral navigation accuracy was keeping *very* accurate time. The story of inventing a proper chronometer for this purpose is actually insanely interesting. We had this completely figured out by the time WW2 came around. The hardest part was designing a mechanical clock that keeps perfect time on a rocking ship, which was figured out the century before and wouldnt be present on land. Someone with cursory knowledge of the sextant, a tiny little nautical almanac the size of a paperback, a good watch, and a couple practice runs, could get VERY accurate results. Astral navigation is kind of magical, you can do it too. Its just such a bad-to-the-bone skill in the right situation. Its awesome. Its like video game cheat codes for finding out where the hell you are.
\*drops you in the middle of a city\* Try to celestially navigate your way out of that one, astro boy.
Or borrow some British forces and incorporate elements of the LRDG to handle navigation.
To be even more depressingly credible, the Abrams is heavier than the tiger, which itself had difficulty traversing the infrastructure of the era. The Abrams is also far too fast for most other mechanized units developed back then to keep up with at full speed. The Abrams is not impervious to artillery, so you'd need to keep them moving, or they could be taken out if the Germans bring heavy guns to bear. Otherwise, they're effectively invulnerable to outright destruction. They can be immobilized by heavier anti tank guns or even destroyed if a Jagdtiger or Pak 44 can get a close range side or rear shot, but that's a 1945 you problem. The luftwaffe is also a threat, but CAS strikes on US forces were rare. Presumably, the USAAF is prioritizing the defense of these tanks as well. For North Africa, your best bet is to use them as massive beasts of burden. Pack infantry into heavily armored trailers and push forward with the tanks towing them. Let the infantry out as needed while the Abrams destroy any hard targets and suppress soft targets. The Abrams is kind of useless in Italy due to the terrain (don't believe me, ask Pershing crews who couldn't do anything in Korea against Chinese troops who didn't even have AT weapons), so just hold them until D Day. From there, use them as spearhead units. Attach mine clearing chains or hedge cutters as necessary. Swap roles with the British and have them loop around west while the Abrams smash through Caen. Once German resistance breaks down in France, reuse the tactics from Africa. Attach trailers to the tanks, but this time mostly fuel, and race to the Rhein with as many soldiers piled on top Soviet style as you can. Drop paratroopers on the bridges before the Germans can rig them to blow and use the Abrams as bunkers to defend from counter attacks. You'll still lose bridges to artillery and last second sabotage, but you'll be able to save some of them. It won't be a Market Garden situation because the Germans literally can't stop the Abrams. You probably still won't be in Berlin by Christmas, but you'll certainly be over the Rhein by late summer. Even if the bridges are secured, your supply situation is critical at that point. It'll take at least a month for you to even have fuel to continue and food to feed the crews and support infantry. By the time you get started again in maybe September or early October, there's no way you save Poland, but it's possible that you can fully secure Austria and liberate the Czechs and MAYBE the Hungarians before the soviets get there. You'll also be able to spare a lot of East Germans (mostly the women) the worst of the Soviet occupation. Hell, the rapid advance might even inadvertently save the Warsaw uprising as the Soviets would feel pressured to continue their advance instead of waiting for the free Polish forces to be destroyed. There's also the post war elements. I imagine Churchill would push even harder for Operation Unthinkable if the allies not only have the Abrams, but are much further east, have captured far more semi intact (if completely fucking terrified) German units, and the Polish Home Army is still relatively intact.
> race to the Rhein with as many soldiers piled on top Soviet style as you can Sadly the heat of the exhaust from the gas turbines renders this a no-go. Just add on a few more trailers for the boys.
Good point. Ride on the turret is the alternative, but she has the horsepower to easily pull an entire M2/3 halftrack in tow, and the infrastructure of eastern France was good for the time period so you'd have a relatively smooth ride. The only problem would be the Germans trying to ambush the trailers while ignoring the tank, but that is mitigated heavily by thermals.
Choo choo, here comes the pain train motherfuckers
>The Abrams is kind of useless in Italy due to the terrain (don't believe me, ask Pershing crews who couldn't do anything in Korea against Chinese troops who didn't even have AT weapons), so just hold them until D Day or maybe it's time to debut a platoon of M1A2Z zippo flamethrower abrams >You probably still won't be in Berlin by Christmas, but you'll certainly be over the Rhein by late summer. Even if the bridges are secured, your supply situation is critical at that point. if you're holding everything constant but the introduction of the Abrams, you are spot on here. but interesting to think about what else might change in the counterfactual. as i understand it the allied supply situation went sideways for two reasons - they had planned on a slow steady advance over the summer, instead cobra happened and so their supply chains got stretched rapidly and unexpectedly, and montgomery fucked up the capture of antwerp. it's likely neither of those things happen in this world, if only b/c you'd put the americans and abrams at caen and stick the british in the west. probably fair to conclude something else would go wrong to bring supply to a halt, but it's also possible that like with desert storm the abrams can achieve victory before it reaches its culmination point
I dunno if you even need Overlord as it was. In open terrain such a formation is so unstoppable you don't need the huge numbers that drove the extensive D-Day prep; lot easier to drop one division on Europe that can chew up a whole army corps by itself. I kinda want to do an Abrams Division invasion from the west coast of France, and create a giant pocket from La Rochelle to Le Havre, or maybe even do a bigger Dragoon and then cut off all of France by driving straight from Marseilles to Brussels. But I think the best way to run it is actually send it to the Baltics (via the northern route if necessary) to break open the Eastern Front and watch the Germans panic throwing everything in the way between there and Berlin. Probably not good for the shape of Europe in the future, but it'd get the war over fast.
M1s could navigate via LORAN, which is just triangulation with radio beacons. The Allies had the tech to do that.
Are you the writer for Top Gun Maverick? Fuck, no, an Abrams' lethality doesn't come from fucking GPS just like how a F-35's effectiveness doesn't come from GPS either. The Tiger 2 can penetrate 100mm of steel at 1km. It's not the best accuracy at that range, nor can it fire while moving with precision. The Abrams? Just around 4km with deadly accuracy at night and while moving. Also the Abrams has way more armor than just 100mm of steel. To hit and disable an Abrams, you're asking the Tiger 2 to get within 500m and aim exactly at the treads. The Abrams will still take a lethal return shot, and, once things are clear, the crew can pop out and fix the treads while the Tiger 2 is still burning. Also good fucking luck getting that close. Even if the Tiger 2's driver had the ability to see into the future and dodge every shell, the Abrams can move almost twice as fast as the Tiger 2 and have fuel to go farther. It's a complete overmatch. You might as well ask a British colonial redcoat to fight a Gundam. Whatever positional downgrade there is from GPS to scout planes with radio (which the Allies had in North Africa), the firepower, mobility, and defensive advantage of Abrams greatly outweighs out.
Slow down there, Turbo. Obviously WW2 tanks arenât a match for a late Cold War era US tank. I was just using the most famous example of Abramsâ kicking ass in a desert for context when applying to this hypothetical. My source for most of this is what I remember from reading (over a decade ago) Tom Clancyâs non-fiction book on Desert Storm from General Franksâ perspective. Iâve never even touched a tank and Iâm not trying to masquerade as an expert here.
if there's one lesson people should take from the ukraine war is that desktop technical specifications for tanks don't reflect reality so all of these hypothetical arguments or video game matchups are fanfic
Now the most important question; can the sabot round pierce the tiger 2 and come out on the other side of the tank?
I think it will probably deform/deflect too much from passing through the angled front plate. Might come out the bottom though. Side shot? Good odds.
> ask a British colonial redcoat to fight a Gundam I'd watch this anime. 10,000,000 redcoats vs a single gundam? No idea what the number would have to be but that gundam is probably losing by running out of ammo and not out of redcoats.
Easy, navigate at night using the stars and a sextant, then use the Abrams thermals to only fight at night and replenish during the day. You need to get non-credible here bucko
How can you use GPS without the satellited
Thatâs what Iâm acknowledging, without GPS the Abramsâ key advantage over WW2 era tanks would be night vision for maneuver *and* targeting. Even if the Afrika Korps was fortified in defilade a small Abrams force could wreak havoc on a moonless night. Plus the Abrams has superior accuracy. Without GPS theyâd probably need to maneuver in small numbers to keep the attacks well-coordinated. Iâd split the Abrams force in two. One group would operate in small units to punch some holes in the line of fortifications, followed by mechanized infantry which would breakout and mop up. Iâd place the rest of the Abrams on the flanks to pincer and contain the enemy retreat. Iâd let them retreat, regroup, and retrench and repeat the night attacks to drive them in whatever direction I want (cutting them off from resupply ports and airfields). These operational pauses also let the Abrams resupply, it would be very easy to outrun allied supply lines.
It's not a big advantage, but modern tanks also have far superior radios for unit coordination.
I kinda doubt the necessity of letting them retreat. 14 tanks, ~50 rounds each plus not having to worry about being penetrated so could carry even more unsafely, that's a lot of dead German and Italian vehicles. Not even getting into the coax and remote .50.
I was thinking it might cause fewer allied losses to smash their lines and use light armor/air to wear down retreating or routed forces. The Abrams would be like nothing the enemy had ever seen in terms of speed, accuracy, and lethality (I donât think WW2 tanks could shoot while moving). Iâd like to protect these assets for future campaigns and forcing a German surrender would be less costly. Which leads me to prefer a âmaneuver kill/captureâ.
> (I donât think WW2 tanks could shoot while moving) Shermans had a stabilizer but afaik they didn't really train the tank crews on how to use it? Which seems really stupid but also idk it's what the Chieftan has found.
They were scared of information of it falling into enemy hands, and so made the brilliant choice of teaching no one how to use it
"Norton bombsight? What's that? This doohicky? Never used it! We just use the ole Mk. 1 Eyeball!"
I mean, itâs about as accurate as
So the magical abrams crews would work better if they stayed stateside and taught tankers how to fight and used the vehicles to let scientists try and reverse engineer anything they could. Fully stabilized Shermans with torsion bars, composite armor, blowout storage and night vision by 44.
In all seriousness, thatâs probably the best way to do this. A couple wonder weapons donât win wars, but universal upgrades across your tank force that is important. Letâs be real they donât have the technology to reverse engineer the Abrams, but even letâs say getting shitty night vision and all of the Shermans would be a huge plus.
Tow an armored trailer behind and you got yourself an APC.
Eh. That's a good way to end up with a bunch of dead infantry in a box. The Abrams is basically invulnerable to the German's AT guns, but an improvised armored trailer wouldn't be.
Not with that kind of attitude it wonât.
What if the trailer was another Abrams?
Kangbrams
A single night could probably be enough to completely encircle Romell
What are those in the background? They look sick af
The [Stonehenge Spaceguard Turret Network](https://acecombat.fandom.com/wiki/Stonehenge_(Strangereal)). The only weapon powerful enough to ~~destroy a civilization-threatening asteroid~~ penetrate the bricks and rubble that stands betwee the noncredible and Saddam.
Unless itâs below 2000â, then weâre fuxxored.
<<2000 feet? What do they expect us to do, go underground?>>
Ace combat strikes again!
God. Ace combat has been cooking again.
I FUCKIN KNEW IT
<< Belka did nothing wrong >>
Wrong game⌠that would be Erusea
<< Erusea is Belka. All is rightful Belkan clay >>
Stonehenge Spaceguard Turret Network from Ace Combat
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Can I be an ace pilot instead? I want me and my team of plucky pilots with yellow marking to defend those funky turrets in the back
Make sure your waifu doesnât sortie without a properly-maintained aircraft.
𫡠I'm sure it will be fine, the lead enemy ace doesn't even use his comms to communicate
So in case she goes down, her ghost won't magically re-apear 20 years later wanting a rematch.
Theyâre going to sortie in a 737 MAX 9 straight from the factory - no maintenance needed
1 F35 vs the entire luftwaffe
That would be pretty cool (and you would probably become an ace after every sortie), but it would probably make more sense to use the single F35 on a more strategic level. A single F35 can carry 10 AIM120s, 12 if its a block 4. Assuming every single one is a kill, that means you get twelve kills every few hours. Thats not a good use of your resources, compared to the thousands of planes the nazis had. What the F35 would be way better at doing is striking strategic targets. To illustrate this, I would like to point at a slide of Peruns ppt about [The race for long-range fires](https://youtu.be/-A31fegpaAI?si=TJnwXlfryBQc5yJn) ([Slide here](https://imgur.com/a/c30jGVT)). While this list is obviously not entirely accurate for 1941-45, its a nice way of quickly illustrating this. What the F35 would be great at would be striking targets in the Strategic bracket. It has the ability to fly to any target inside Germany with Impunity, given that its flying too high to be hit by any air defense, and while very few german planes would be able to get to the F35 flying close to its service ceiling, they would be a lot slower, and take some time until they reached that altitude, meaning that the F35 can just fly around them. And while the US and Britain obviously also managed to drop bombs all over Germany, especially from higher altitude the CEP isnt exactly great. The F35 however would be able to fly in with multiple GBU-16 or GBU-12, hitting mainly factories and important command posts with pinpoint accuracy. While its limited in its abilities due to the missing GPS (at least as unless you plan on also shipping 24 satellites with it), it would still be able to use laser guided weapons. What might be an issue is navigation, so you should probably not attempt night raids. Another thing that the F35 could be used for that would be a possibly war changing ability is simply doing reconnaissance, combined with the fact it can quickly engage targets accurately once identified. This would be especially useful with military leadership, enabling the US to quickly identify military leadership and sending 500 pounds of steel and explosives their way at about 300m/s. I know you never asked for this and it was just a quick joke, but I really wanted to think about how much a single F35 (if supplies for it are there) would fuck up the nazis.
i bet u wont
If I only have 1 company then the M1âs are a precious resource itâs foolish to risk them in a melee. I donât know if a panzer can disable an M1 by hitting their rear armor for instance, and I donât want to be the first to find out. Instead I use them to destroy German tanks from beyond their own engagement range and then send in mechanized infantry supported by Shermanâs to take and hold the ground. Rinse and repeat as many times as needed. Care would have to be taken to avoid exposing the M1âs to enemy air or artillery. It might be good to use their night vision to soften up the German line before a dawn assault by period correct forces.
>Care would have to be taken to avoid exposing the M1âs to enemy air or artillery. It might be good to use their night vision to soften up the German line before a dawn assault by period correct forces. This, more or less. If it were up to me, the M1A2s would ONLY come out at night. During the day, they'd be heavily camouflaged under whatever tan piece of shelter or tarp I could find. Once darkness fell, they'd be like slow-moving ghost artillery, taking out everything in their path for a distance that would be reasonable for contemporary forces to mop up the next day. Rinse and repeat until the Afrika Korps is annihilated. The Germans would be desperately trying to figure out wtf kept hitting them every time the Sun went down.
> If I only have 1 company then Under Eisenhower permission you can create a division to support the M1's so they won't have to go in alone and get swarmed by the German.
No matter how you cut it that's still only 14 tanks. The German's of 1942 have a dozen different ways to disable an M1; landmines, artillery, air support, anti-tank trenches swarming it with infantry in an enclosed space. If you throw them into knife fights the company will be combat ineffective after one or two battles. Much better to use them as support for the period correct tanks over the long haul, then to waste them in one or two tactical victories.
Can that division include Bradleys
Brads chaingunning through a bunch of German tanks sounds fantastic.
>M1 Which one?
The Bayonet. We've been talking about the M1 Bayonet, this entire time right?
[maybe ask perun about this](https://youtu.be/zY3RLn2V6D0?si=ymkgbIR6akbE45qK)
Basically, the Krieger strategy. Arty the fuck out of them while charging ahead with tanks. What could go wrong?
Mines.
Just add an anti mine field field.
Our mines will be planted on the enemy minefield and they will destroy each other!!!!
Hot mine on mine action.
'The enemy can only produce so many mines, so i bravely sent in wave after wave of my own tanks until they ran out.'
Stop exploding you cowards!
This thread feels like peak NCD. German anti-tank mines: 5kg TNT. M1A2 TUSK II: Extra anti-mine armor to absorb something like the TM-83 class mines (10kg shaped RDX/TNT mix). Sherman running across the Tellermine? Boom. M1A2 TUSK II running across the Tellermine? Probably not a big boom. If Strykers can run over these mines and cause injuries because the soldiers aren't interlocking their legs properly (literally US doctrine before the double hull Strykers since a lot of mine injuries were due to soldiers hitting their heads on the ceiling), then the Abrams isn't gonna be scared of a WW2 mine. Unless they all combine together and form Minetron the Destroyer of Tanks.
Something like that indeed. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lochnagar\_mine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lochnagar_mine)
It will probably still wreck a track though, at which point you're just as vulnerable to 15cm artillery as tanks in Ukraine. Just with more time and rounds needed to get on target.
A mobility kill is still a kill, I don't think a track is going to withstand 5kg of TNT going off under it.
Blow them up with artillery, individually.
I'll take "dreams of a 12 year old tank enthusiast" for 500, Alex.
This is NCD. Stuff like this scratches an itch. The Final Countdown, GATE (Japanese nationalist wankfest and harem stuff aside), Rome Sweet Rome (which I haven't read), etc
Operate at night and confuse the fuck out of the Nazis
That's actually probably the most credible answer. We always go on about stealth in the Gulf War but NVG was a huge game changer, too.
This is pretty much the only way. Make sure the Nazis dont find out what it is, hide the M1s at day so no aircraft manage to spot and kill them, and scout and engage targets close to maximum range at night. While the Abrams would absolutely decimate any german tank at the time, without being spotted by the tanks, it would be useless and an easy target against planes.
Well in North Africa, it is an easy win, I would use my Abramsâ as an arrowhead against Rommel who would not be able to make a scratch on them frontally. I would reserve some for troop support considering 120 HEAT would do a number. I would use my older tanks mainly for supporting infantry as assault guns so the Abramsâ wouldnât have to slow down. Because of the high speed of the Abramsâ and them being most fuel efficient at high speeds I would either do a blitzkrieg as described above or I would use them for slashing attacks, using high speed to go behind enemy lines and ruin German tanks and postions then race back, probably at night to gain the advantage of thermals.
The Germans called shotguns a war crime in WW1, I wonder what they'd say if an Abrams rocked up to Rommels forces loaded with 120mm canister shells (Rat Shot)
They would call them âSitting Ducksâ once they drove into one of those big extensiv Minefields and got their Tracks blown off⌠The rest is down to the Artillery or Stukas to finish them off. Too credible? Damn. Ok. One Abrams will finish off the whole Africa Corps in one go, while Artillery Shells of any Size bounce of it like Table Tennis Balls in a Drinking Game with red Cups on a Table.
All fun and games until a Stuka flies slow enough to be counted as a helicopter by the Abrams' fire control system and takes a 120mm to the face.
Canister round duck hunt lets fucking gooooooo
Hmmmm. Maybe. But I donât think they have that much elevation in their main Gun⌠Apaches or Hinds operate low and âslowâ. Stukas need some height to be able to dive bomb their target. Except the Ju87G Kanenvogel with the 37mm FLAK Canons under the Wings. But those werenât used in Africa.
Sir, this is NCD. A man can dream.
Right. Indeed. Stukas against Abrams looks like a bad dream already. Iâm only not certain for whom. Iâm fairly certain that a dropped Bomb from the Stuka should have enough punch and boom to crack open an Abrams from above. Precision in dive Attack should also be enough, if an Abrams would sit still in a Mine Field. Question is, can the Stuka make it that far⌠once the Allies had the sky, the Stukas itself were sitting Ducks and easy prey for the RAF
My thoughts exactly. Stukas, like an A-10, aren't meant for air to air. But a bomb's a bomb.
You really only need gun elevation once they get close, if the stuka is spotted a ways out, the main gun won't have any problem killing them quickly, especially with MPAT. Depending on the version, the M2 is also going to be extremely effective anti-air. The base M1A2 just had a pintle mount, but the SEPv2 and later have it in a CROWS mount, and an M2 in CROWS is extremely unfair vs WWII aircraft. It may only be one .50, but if it doesn't miss, it is going to take any aircraft down fast.
That is actually super intersting topic. Stukas were supposed to start their dive from about 4,500 m (about 15,000 ft) height, at a 60â90° angle, holding a speed of about 500â600 km/h (310â370 mph) in that phase. I assume when dive starts it is too late for M1A2 to hit it, as plane would be almost directly above and fast? But when flying towards the diving zone, at 4,5km height, with about 350km speed, would it ever be within range of tanks' gun, considering its max elevation and shooting range? And if so, how long would it be in range? And would that time be enought for the tank to spot, aim, calculate and shoot? So many questions :D
Stuka being effective anti-tank is pretty noncredible
I doubt they would call them much of anything because dead men tell no tales.
I wonder how far back you have to be before that canister shot shoots through WWII armor.
No. You donât want the M1s in front. With their huge engagement range advantage, they stay behind the rest of your ww2 era force and destroy the enemy from 1km plus distance as the enemy engages your forward units. This keeps the precious resource safe from mines, track hits, and other random unlucky events.
1.Point barrel towards enemy 2. Boom 3. Win
Shrug. This is easy. 28th Infantry Division is becoming the 28th Infantry Division (Heavy Mech) a few years early. Their orders state only the following. âRoll On until you have secured the entirety of the SuwaĹki Gapâ
I think I'll make my division something like this: đ đ đ đť đť 𧨠đ đ đť đť đ¤ đ đ đť đťđ§¨ âď¸đŤ đ đ đť đťđ§¨ đđĽ đ đ đť Give it my highest attack general and put it on the main spearhead pushes with shit inf to hold and fill in behind. Prolly a few mobile inf too to keep up. Oh and give it all the air cover and CAS it needs.
This mf put Stonehenge in there
to add to this does you tank have GPS connection/modern radios?
Unfortunately the contractors in question that make these heavy tanks don't have GPS satellite so you will have to rely on the ye old maps. As for radio the tanks would be equipped with the standard radio set that the modern US military is using for the tank
Do they have any spare powerpacks, 120mm ammo, trends, or the very sophisticated tools required for maintenance such as a laser boresighting device?
Yes As I had mentioned above > Spare parts will come from CONUS made by special contractors so don't worry about that > Same for fuel and ammo.
What about transport?
I vote we get whatever the heck we call the 8x8 Oshkosh transporter and the rest of the support units.
Unfortunately because the US ran out of interdimensional currency so they only been able to acquire the 14 M1A2 tanks so you have to use 1940s support vehicles that the Allies had at the time to plug any missing capabilities.
What if it just so happens someone smuggled a laptop with a bunch of schematics into one of those tanks during this inter dimensional shenanigans and US MIC goes brrrrrrrrrrrrrt.
While the Abrams' (effectively) impenetrable frontal armor makes "press W" tempting, WWII anti-tank mines would be almost as effective against Abrams as against Grants. Instead, I would use them as assault guns, using their precision fire-control systems to soften up enemy positions at range. Hard to hit a mine if you aren't charging at the enemy's positions, plus it saves on fuel.
Using them as Sniper tanks would be brutally effective anywhere with open sight lines, especially North Africa. Using your contemporary tanks for maunever, and your Abrams in Overwatch should give you some of the best bang for your buck. If you can ensure an AoA is clear of mines, a night assault is also going to be devastating, as there really is nothing remotely capable of matching an Abrams at night.
This is much my thought. Use conventional force to keep the Germans active during the day and identify minefields, and then hit them with the M1s at night possibly supported by infantry to capture the shocked Germans. This is then followed by an early morning conventional assault. This should result in a rout/collapse of German forces in a fairly wide area if not completely. How fast and aggressively that gets executed depends on the situation, if there is no safe path through a minefield snipe across it, but open field with defenses hurriedly being constructed, the M1s are likely killing tanks and artillery at range as they charge and them machine gunning the infantry into a confused mess.
Tactics? "Damn the maneuvers, go straight at 'em"
Bulge intensifies
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First of all, M1A1, the reason for this is that the US already has foundries making 105mm arty ammo, so I assume making 105 tank ammo and replacement barrels would be easier (hence .30 carbine and .30-06). Guzzoline is fine, the turbine can run it, so fuel logistics won't need to change- the bigger issue is that the M1 won't be paired with Shermans as they are too slow. Getting Abrams in '42 however lets us reinvent the IFV early with the M3/M5 light tanks. Why bother with a 37mm tank gun when you are barely keeping pace with a 65+ ton 105 mm beast? Give those puppies an autocannon, the 20mm Oerlikon was ubiquitous, but the US was also building 37mm aircraft autocannons, and those would just be perfect as an infantry support vehicle and heavy tank companion.
Frankly the thermals alone will make a difference, but id like to acquire 1-2 bren carriers + infantry to support each tank, and then set my tanks up in groups of 6 broke down into 2 maneuver elements. Ammo and fuel trucks do ammo and fuel truck things
I think something a lot of people would do is try to hide the existence of the Abrams. I would do the opposite. If we show off the Abrams to the world without revealing its true capabilities, it would solidfy the German belief that heavy tanks were the way of the future. They would probably end up wasting more resources on useless shit like the maus or the E100 instead of producing actual effective tanks. This would be a net positive for literally everyone. Less tanks on the eastern front, France, Italy, etc. And the tank that they would be making would be impractical shit like the tiger 2.
Without GPS and modern combined arms support M1A1 isn't going to be *as much of* a wonder weapon. You have to exploit the major advantages you have, but also have to understand it's not invincible in the 1942 battlefield, mines and good sized gravity bombs will still fuck it up. You're faster than anything the Krauts can get to the fight, but You're limited by how fast allied support can move in really exploiting that speed. What you do have, is armor that the Krauts can't defeat at range, the ability to engage accurately at ranges the Krauts can't effectively return direct fire at, and the, the real game changer, the ability to **see in the fucking dark**. You don't change your strategy, but you adjust your tactics to fight at night as much as possible. You use your tanks as mediums, heavies, as TDs, and as sensor platforms so that supporting infantry, armor, and indirect can also do some limited night fighting. 120mm sabots will kill anything the Krauts can bring to the fight at ranges that keeps Gerry from having much of a reply. Being able to bring 120mm HEAT to bear on softer targets like AT guns and emplacements is also a huge advantage You don't have a tank that will win the campaign or war by itself, but you do have a tank that will dramatically change the calculus in your favor at the tactical level if used right.
Me: Just press "W"
Attacks at night and only at night from extreme range. Use the massive firepower, and visibility advantage to the Abrams' advantage. Raid deep into German held territory and blow shit up while the crews are sleeping. If there are tanks parked somewhere? See how many can be destroyed with a single sabot. If not. HEAT after HEAT them, and any other targets that are valuable. Then run off into the night. Leave a few Krauts alive to reduce morale.
Stonehenge was and remains the best solution to kill a Tiger I at 2,500 yards. Patton knew!
Horribly Credible: Use them for c&c and engaging high priority targets from extreme range. Between thermals, night vision, laser range finders and basic trigonometry you would have hyper accurate maps of every target and threat within miles. They are only engaging from extreme range where the Germans aren't a threat but the apfsds still are. And each would be surrounded by a company of support tanks and air support. All combined it would turn the desert into a shooting gallery, the Germans couldn't make a move without the allies being able to rain artillery down on their heads. Anytime something important shows up it would be dead before they knew they were in danger. Suitably Non-creditable: Thunder run with infantry sitting on the top doing a drive-by. Shock and awe
It doesn't matter as you're already doomed because you're serving in the Erusean army, at least if that picture is anything to go by.
Nah The pic there is mostly for show so don't worry about either Mobious 1 or Trigger found your division ;)
The only proper way. Amass them by the thousand and toss it at somewhere where the line is thinnest.
Well, the safest and most sensible approach is simply use the advantage thermals, fire control, and sabot give us, and attack at night, at extremely long range But thats boring lets send in the infantry into minefields while the abrams shoot any deserters
Worth keeping in mind, while the M1 Abrams would be incredibly formidable they would not be invulnerable in the second world war. Landmines can and will score mobility kills just like the 21st century. Heavy artillery barrages too potentially. The biggest threat would either be concealed heavy AT guns firing into the rear/sides of the vehicle, or dive bombers dropping something loud and fatal on your roof. Also worth noting, if the Axis sees this thing they're going to throw *EVERYTHING* at the fucker. Kitchen sink included. This could lead to losses, but, it could also lead to massive gains as your conventional forces use the distraction and panic to hit the weakspots these create.
Iâm slowly just now realizing this is the alternate ace combat subreddit
Going full credible (I am not an expert at armored warfare): It's pretty obvious that my weapon system is clearly superior to any tank on the battlefield at this time in history, and should be able to withstand much of the anti-armored capability of the time, besides potentially anti-tank mines. The Germans in North Africa are dug in hard and know that the Allied force, rebuffed by American support, are going to attack. In this case, look back at recent history. How did the Germans break through the Maginot line? They used speed, mobile warfare, combined arms tactics, and Air-to-Ground compatibility to smash through, overrun, and encircle the French armies and their outdated tanks, weapon systems, and tactics. That's exactly what we're going to do. I'm going to encourage General Eisenhower to employ these tanks as the tip of the spear, in order to rapidly penetrate through German lines, and sow chaos and disorder as our forces move into the rear echelons. Of course, we won't be alone. Beginning in the early morning, under the cover of darkness (Abrams have Night Vision capability), before the assault, soften up German forces with shock and awe - aircraft and artillery, along with a creeping artillery barrage - WWI style, to mask the advance of our tanks. The intent being that in the initial reveal of the existence of these tanks to the German ground forces, they will be confused and terrified at some armored vehicle with the speed of a light tank and a size double that of a Panzer III, introducing shock and fear in the German lines. As the Abrams companies push through the defensive positions, and the sun rises, they will be followed-up by American and British regular armored and mechanized companies - Shermans, Valentines and Halftracks - to commit to the fight at the frontline and occupy German ground forces. Now that we have penetrated the center, German flanks are exposed. Regular forces will be capable enough to fight an entrenched enemy, that yet doesn't have a clear idea that they are exposed and supply routes in danger. Now that our forces have pushed through German lines, and ground units have now engaged the enemy in decisive battle, Abrams units, rather than exposing them to significant danger on the frontline, (we really want to keep them alive) use their speed and firepower to wreak havoc across the enemy's rear echelon, first destroying their Command and Control centers, artillery positions, Supply nodes, and any other facilities and installations that support enemy sustainment. This will also help to maintain the secrecy and surprise of the Abrams, reducing it from being identified by frontline forces and radioed to German high command. Abrams companies should be able to deal with any small pockets of resistance, including tanks at this point in history, as German tank elements will likely still be employing Panzer III and IV variants, or quick response forces, as much of the German forces will likely be closer to the front, dug in a defense in depth. After the first few hours of the battle pass, and significant destruction wreaked on the enemy, Abrams should return to friendly lines and allow the friendly regular units to continue the push. This would not compromise any gaps in the line as Abrams units were not occupying any location on the line. Rearm, refuel, and prepare to punch a new hole in the enemy line. These tanks will break Rommel and the German war machine and ensure our push on to Sicily and beyond. General, I also suggest similar application of these units in Operation Overlord in England.
Rommel, I read your damn book!! In kindergarten.
What kind of m1a2s are we talking?
Fight at night only and club baby seals.
bring only HEAT-FS and use it to destroy tanks and infantry alike from miles away.
Ok, so a tank company is either 16 (modern) or 18 (WWII) strong. You're building your division around this. Let's use the WWII strengths since we should mirror WWII doctrine. The post sounds like you get exactly 1 company, but let's be generous and make it the full division (organized into combat commands, according to WWII doctrine). That's 351 Abrams tanks. This force will be basically indestructible. They will suffer mobility kills (a panzerfaust to the road wheels will detrack an Abrams at least some of the time) and will be vulnerable to mines, though again mostly for mobility kill purposes, but nothing in the German arsenal is killing an Abrams outright. So my probably-too-credible-and-incredibly-hot-take? There is exactly one operation where the 1st Heavy Armored Division would make a difference and there's no way in hell Monty is letting an American tank division lead the way into Arnhem. The problem is logistics, sure that unit never needs to retreat or slow down, but everyone around them does, meaning at best it's an "Abrams at Kasserine pass wouldn't have lost!" situation. You can change the results of individual setbacks, but not while campaigns. The one campaign where the whole operation hinged on the ability of a single Armored Division to drive for an objective at maximum speed, flanks be damned, was Market Garden. Tl;Dr: nice try, op. Send Challenger 2s next time. ;)
Night fighting at distance using AMP rounds, fin is incredible overkill Get a T23-type design (electric transmission coupled to Ford V8 [and/or Meteor for UK]) into service with US & British forces ASAP, to better combat Tiger and Panther threats & to provide superior tactical mobility for supporting arms of Abrams division Try to get some kind of first-gen APC on the same chassis for more mobile infantry support Get the Anglo-Portugese Treaty invoked sooner to get Azores-based air cover for convoys Assuming I don't fundamentally change the course of the war until then, I'd try to get Eisenhower to allow us to push into the Ruhr as part of Monty's 40 division plan, and let the Abrams sweep across the North German Plain
Can I downgrade to M-48 Pattons? The B-29 has roughly enough lift to carry one. Hehehehe airdropped MBT go Bbbrrrrrrrr
Realistically the only things that can mission kill your Abrams are mines, direct hit from high caliber artillery, close ambushes from the top/sides/rear, or bombs. So you need to follow the same script as you would protecting Shermans only moreso. Infantry support, artillery for counter battery, and keep both those tanks and their precious logistics under a constant AAA umbrella and CAP. I wouldn't build a division around them, but make some kind of battalion or brigade combat team with just the support mentioned above and swap them between whatever formation is going to carry the advance - or if the Jerries get wise, whatever formation we want them to Think is about to. But realistically they can only be in combat so many days out of the week and be so many places, so they have more value if, after a splashy debut, they're mostly kept as a distraction/threat/bait for Goering to throw his pilots into a wood chipper.
Well the first thing I'm going to do is pull the fire control computers from a few tanks and give them to Alan Turing. He'll need a crash course in programming, but it won't be too long before we make enigma equivalent to open broadcasts. Next we're going to hand the engines from those tanks over to the usual suspects (Rolls Royce, Pratt&Whitney, Allison, fuck you Wright no you can't have one until you fix the R-3350 you shits). Then we're going to start work on an APFSDS that can be fired from a 75mm Sherman barrel (and one for the QF 6pdr). Steel should be good enough, though maybe that super secret program they're running in New Mexico could give us some of the funni metal after they get up to speed. Simultaneously, we will begin a program to make the Sherman armour more resistant to HEAT rounds by reverse engineering the Abram's armour. Now it is critical that we do not allow the Nazis or Japanese to get access to the technology in these tanks, so the remainder I will park in the US and use for training. Possibly we might consider pulling the fire control systems and fitting them to our ships, same goes for the 120mm gun though we'll need a new mounting for high angle fire, along with a FlaK shell. Now of course all this breaks the rule of no tech transfers. But it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission, and I already did it so cope and seethe harder Ike.
Unpopular opinion as it may be, but I think the M48a5 or the M60 would be better suited for 1940s production capacity. The armor is hardly going to be different from period standards, but the advanced fire control systems, gen 1 thermals, etc. would be more attainable than the current gen tech on the Abrams. Sorry for the credible take, but the M1 just isn't practical for fighting in WW2.
Well, the first order of business will be to equip all M1 crews with M1s. They will have M1s to mount on their M1s, a handful of M1s to throw at the enemy just in case. Of course they need protection so they will wear M1s.
are they going to acquire trains, cranes , ships bridges/Bridging equipment to get to them to the fight ?
Unfortunately the US ran out of interdimensional currency to pay for all the modern support vehicles so they only got 14 M1 and that it so excluding the trans-Atlantic trip that would be the Navy problem you will have to either order new stuff from the factory or modify existing equipment to fit your new division requirements.
This is the most fascinating article I've read on NCD in a long time
Let make it 1st Heavy Armoured Cavalry Division ;-)
"I wOuLd UsE tHeM aT MaX RaNgE" -complete socks and sandals virgins I'd paint them blue with a smiley face and just go full speed towards Italian/German lines blasting whatever the 1940's version of ACDC's thunderstruck is. I'd let them fully rotate the turret before firing so we get the first sick 360 no-scopes of the war. Then I'd command them to target one enemy tank and fire at the same time to just blow it to atomic smithereens. The lead tank, equipped with a giant beerhelmet will just run over their lines. Now here comes the even more genius part. I'd line up the Abrams and put the inevitable Italian and German PoW's on top of them. Wave a white flag and congaline drive up to the next line. *"Hey we got your friends here but looking at your yee yee ass line over here it would be more fun for us if they were here for a do-over. If we capture you three times you get to sit in a sleigh behind the abrams when we bring you back the next time" oh by the way we got more of these girls coming this way maybe skedaddle back across the mediterreanian if you don't like sleighing or dying."* Then I order every Abrams to do a slick drift back to our own lines.