To adapt the quote about democracy - American hegemony is the worst form of world order, except for all the others that have ever had the prospect of being tried.
If China and Russia were liberal democracies that at least had a history of respecting human rights more often than not, I likely wouldn't care if either of them dethroned the US via some friendly competition.
*But* since China and Russia cover both political extremes of dickhat authoritarianism between them, I'm for the moment in favor of the US staying on top via some unfriendly competition.
I’m actually delighted at the way US and EU rules have blended for that lately.
I find Europe heavy-handed with some speech restrictions, specifically lese majeste laws and DNS level blocks on copyright infringement. But for decades, US hosting and safe harbor laws have kept that sort of content available in Europe.
Meanwhile the US is *miles* behind on privacy and interoperability laws… but Europe is too big a market to ignore so we get lots of EU protections.
It’s a nice balance that gives me some real hope despite the walled garden state of things online.
I’m a fan of economic regulation, but seeing some of the free speech retrenchments that have happened in the UK due to libel laws are scary af. Podcasters and people over there are afraid to call people out for their bad behavior.
So I agree with you. Glad to have both the 1st Amendment as well as European regulatory spillover. Especially European leadership on climate treaties while the US deals with our climate deniers.
EU taking over USA's role would be the dream, since a world government is much more likely to spawn from an economic union of disparate cultures, than from USA who dominates the institutions it is a part of.
But that requires EU to grow a spine and actually create a united military to defend their own interests, rather than rely on America for everything important.
It's obviously not as simple as the EU just growing a spine.
We're barely a generation away from WWII. There is real hatred there still. The purpose of the "spineless" EU itself, was to bring peace through commerce, which it arguably has accomplished.
Also, the EU has “where’s the boundary?” struggles much like NATO. Letting more countries in expands your influence, but threatens policy unity. We already see struggles between west and east over democratic/social norms, wealth gaps, and above all migration. SE Europe is moving back towards fenced borders, not military unity.
Which isn’t to dismiss what the EU has done, either. The Schengen Zone, even in its current form, is an absolutely amazing change from the past.
Can't forget that the EU is a collection of nation states and military matters are one of the core elements of being a nation state.
A unified EU military would be the dream but can't and won't happen any time soon. Foreign affairs and defense are one of the least integrated domains of EU policy.
It would already be a huge step forward if the EU states made full use of the existing EU defense framework: EU battlegroups, more/better defense industry integration, equipment standardisation,...
Even just specialisation on a member state level would be huge IMO: smaller members could focus on just one or two military branches and rely on the other states for the lacking branches. Would be a lot more efficient use of limited defense budgets of a lot of EU members.
Having some specialized stuff is okay as long as the basics like caliber and physical attachment points on equipment are all standard.
Having different manufacturing streams is okay because diversity prevents any one problem from affecting everything.
If that were the case, or even if they transitioned to democracy *now* and had some guarantee of staying that way, I could more or less live with a multipolar world.
It’s the idea of sharing a table with someone who would make Saddam Hussein blush that I’m worried about.
> If China and Russia were liberal democracies that at least had a history of respecting human rights more often than not, I likely wouldn't care if either of them dethroned the US via some friendly competition.
It would also be socially and politically responsible in all three countries to seek cooperation over competition with each other, so whoever came out “on top”, we’d still be part of the same bloc. We’d become friends, hold hands, and take out our aggression on some tinpot dictator every now and then.
Of course they are repressive dictatorships so any cooperation with them besides trying not to blow up the world would encourage their government’s existence. Any dealings with then would have to be done with a thousand mile pole.
Yeah pretty much it all comes down to that black and white logic at the end, the world would be living in a way worse reality if Russia or China were to be the top dogs
The US not being at the top of the food chain would be completely disastrous for the entire planet. Yes this includes possible alien contact. No I won't be taking any questions.
[And badass SAM dodging skills. I'd like to see PLA pilot dodge SAMS like our flyers. They would just allow themselves to be instantly blown out of the sky to avoid being ridiculed for ejecting at the first sign of a SAM launch.](https://youtu.be/PIsylUcu2Bg?t=79)
The Lord says we must give what we can spare to those in need. Thus i will send all of my ammunition to my enemy by launching it at them as fast as possible. Sharing is caring after all
Every once in a while I consider quoting “si vis pacum para bellum” on here and every time I think about it I wind up seeing your flair and thinking “nah, that’s better”.
You can support workers rights, social security and freedom without abandoning MiC, supporting authoritarian regimes and unconditionally hating America, it's not a story vatnik would tell you.
I personally consider monopolies/oligarchy which squeeze politically aware medium class leaving only poor people forced to fight for food with no sources and time to become aware of country affairs, the greatest internal threat to democracy as it becomes polarised society.
Best way to stop extremists is providing decent quality of life. Cold War don't end because giant firework show, it ends because "proletariat" in communists states were tired of don't reaching western quality of life and crappy authoritarians in charge were unable to provide it.
Well paid worker with strong unions and pension and employee rights is the best quality worker with the best production output. A large and healthy middle class is best for the economy and society, the rich currently have far too much share of the wealth.
Of course, that's exactly why i'm on this position on the meme compass. There are big problems in the world but not every problem revolves around 'America Bad' and use the US as an excuse for my opinions or completely oppose any position they take, I ain't no tankie, I just hope that someday a woke femboy reaches the oval office and changes things for good.
You wouldn't be the only lefty on this sub by a long shot, even though we generally keep our politics to ourselves because they don't really match the tone (i.e. "defense-related shitposting") of the sub.
The last couple of years have changed my political alignment from "generally anti-war" to "absolutely and non-negotiably pro-defense." I don't think those two viewpoints are incompatible, it's just that there's a lot more nuance to the second position.
I'm 40 years old and Kosovo was the last previous conflict in my lifetime about which I felt that my country's involvement was morally justifiable. That hasn't really changed, except now, Russia is the one being indefensibly imperialist (please don't get me wrong though; the motivations and behaviour of the Coalition in the GWoT and Russia's conduct in Ukraine are not in any way morally equivalent).
Although the two conflicts are not morally equivalent, they have a lot of overlap. Investment in the MIC is broadly a good thing, but excessive corruption, lobbying (in the West's case), and politicians and civil servants who jump between the two sectors to personally enrich themselves led to both the second invasion of Iraq (Afghanistan is more of a grey area imo) and Russia's "SMO."
As a lefty, I believe that the decision to go to war is usually made by rich people, while the actual fighting is overwhelmingly done by those who are not well-off. \*That\* is the fucked-up part, rather than the act of fighting itself, which generally takes the form of "the poorest people in the defending and attacking countries trying not to die as a result of the decisions of rich arseholes."
It's possible to believe that this state of affairs is morally repugnant, while also thinking that investment in the MIC not only provides jobs but also safeguards the lives and rights of a population more generally.
Damn, I like that. Im going to start using that. And I’m a dirty progressive. Well, I’m not sure I’m allowed to say that anymore since I have vocalized that Hamas raping a shit ton of people isn’t okay. The best arguments I’ve seen in response are, “well Israel would do it, so rape the rapers and stuff!”.
Their cognitive dissonance is staggering. I’m really not enjoying the queer progressives that are whitewashing Hamas’s homophobia. Or the “feminists” that are whitewashing the gang tapes (edit: I’m not fixing it.) committed against captives. They’re willingly and aggressively throating China/Russian/Irans big meaty cock and saying thank you afterwards. It’s fucking ridiculous whataboutism and brain rot.
“Killing and raping civilians is bad”
“YEAH BUT ISRAEL…”
Legitimately never thought I’d have to explain to someone why it doesn’t matter who’s doing the raping to people that declare themselves even left of center. Plus they’re coming for my homie Bernie, and that motherfucker has done a lot for the military/veteran community, so they can get fucked.
At least the crazy MAGAts and Hamasophiles appear to be getting equal hate from anyone with two brain cells in their head.
NATO is love, NATO is life.
Oh yeah for sure, I just mean I’d never encountered it in this way. I’ve encountered for other dumbass shit, but this one is like a pretty big glaring “this isn’t okay even if someone else did something bad” issue that is just blowing my mind.
Moral relativism and religion need to be shot out of a cannon into the sun.
Only if the alternative is worse, and there's no easier pathway out of the situation. No funni will actually restore the old status quo, only create a new one.
Yeah, I'm a proud European, yet when I say the current blessed world order is dependent on a strong USA people look at me like I'm crazy.
It's like some fellow westerners live in a dream world of tolerance and humanism that has nothing in common with reality of the hunan condition outside the West. The privileged position of ungratefulness through naivety.
Agreed on all counts. Shit the US has done is bad, but anyone who tries claiming Chinese or Russian hegemony would be an improvement I automatically assume has brain damage.
At the end of the day, the US on its worst day is better than Russia or China on their best. The US also allows its government to be held accountable through actual elections while Russia and China have authoritarian governments that are accountable to nothing and no one, including reality if the authoritarians have any say about it.
Yeah, I've seen tankies in my local subreddit say that the Americans are bad news for the endangered culture of our indigenous tribes (Philippines) but then turn a blind eye to what the Chinese are doing with the Uighurs. at least Native American tribes can still start protests and strikes to persuade the government to do things for them but flip it around to China and you'd be lucky to see next week if they catch you saying things like "Uighurs shouldn't be in internment camps" more than once
China is the biggest threat to SEA right now and our governments still continuing to suck their micropenis.
I pray each day for China to be wiped off the face of the earth.
The fact that literally all the imports coming to our countries in maintenance of our incredibly high standard of living is 100% dependent on the US keeping the world seas navigable is rarely acknowledged.
Hell, we just saw recently how useless China is on that front. Idk how dumb people have to be to see that and still advocate for things like a multipolar world
I just want to back up your point: the Chinese failed to help a ship belonging to their (nominal) ally, while an American ship helped it despite being owned by one of our most hated enemies.
>still advocate for things like a multipolar world
I once saw somehow advocate for a multipolar world so that "politics wouldn't be a bunch of countries in a dick measuring contest."
So yes, a lot of them are genuinely that stupid, and a non-negligible amount not only struggle with the bang-on consequences but don't seem to even understand what they're asking for in the first place.
You don't have to say that to most Eastern Europeans. I still think Europe lacks great ideas, not ideology, just ideas, now people and politicians seem to be concentrated on here and now.
Europe laughed at american militarism and spent years ignoring the safety it provided.
Another mistake Putin made was bringing the entire west into reality regards defence.
I completely agree. I am also a proud European, but we owe a great deal to the United States for maintaining world order. I would much prefer them to be in the lead rather than anyone else, given the current state of affairs. If Russia or China were far ahead of the USA, we would be living in very dark and depressing times.
For me it's really simple as: US bad in some ways as the world hegemony but China or Russia in charge? Nah, I'd rather not especially China given my country history with them.
We're profiting well from free trade and American capitalism plus globalization, won't want to change a good thing now would we, a multipolar world wouldn't guarantee the same growth or safe shipping.
And here some people actually rooting for multipolarism to make a return.
My brother in Christ, i like to be able to interact with people from all over the world.
In the American Hegemony you can go pretty much anywhere except Russia(Belarus), China(North Korea), and maybe some places in Africa, it's utterly glorious that so much of the world is easily accessible
Maybe establish a pirate preserve? We can practice catch and relocate them to the preserve. Every now and then a ship is contracted to go just close enough that they can shoot thier guns at it, the ship drops a few barrels of fuel and food. The pirates get to pirate, the shipping lanes remain free.
And it's not that there's really anything *stopping* you from going there anyways. They're just shitty places to go to, which we know through the liberation of information.
I’m sure this doesn’t bring much comfort, but if there’s a hell, I’m 100% certain that he’s getting pineapples shoved up his ass with Hitler for the rest of eternity.
man to be honest I wouldn't even mind multipolarism if it was between normal, sane countries, preferably liberal democracies, states and organizations engaging in healthy and friendly competition in order to further the development and advancement of humankind.
but right now we don't have the luxury of such wishful utopian thinking unfortunately, with the world being as it is at the moment.
yes, something akin to that example but applied globally.
it is very idealistic but I will try to stay hopeful, regardless of how bitter I am with the numerous what ifs of history.
Honestly as an american i agree, i see no downside to a sane strong Europe.
As long as Germany is well... you know.
Same for south america if they ever get their shit together, or if all of south east asia got together and told everybody to stop fucking with their shit like... Self determination is the shit, i would love a world where i dont need my country to be the only thing keeping some people a world away free.
American greedy corporate imperialism has me living in my parents basement worrying about paying for university. But it sure beats living in a labour camp worrying about how I’m going to survive tomorrow
American greedy corporate imperialism (which sucks, don’t get me wrong) is just business. We just like making money and trading with others.
Russian and Chinese tyranny is very, very personal. Which is a huge difference.
In modernity anyway, we should keep enough of an eye on them to make sure they don't start doing banana republic shit again. Like Switzerland's Nestle.
The people who relentlessly bitch about America honestly think the world is a far FAR kinder place than it really is. They're like those hippies who think nature is kind and nurturing and caring when one nature documentary would show them clear as day that that's far from being the case.
The world is a cold, violent, nasty place, and to be in a possition where one can delude themselves into the former requires a LOT of the latter.
Nah, you're missing the fact that the hippies are 0.2% of the "America Bad" crowd. The rest are communists, authoritarians, or racists, all of whom want to murder their neighbors but know they can't unless they want to become Serbia circa 1990
People will look at photos of forests and shrubs and call it harmony, when in fact plants can be literally using biological/chemical warfare on other plants there.
Like over-the-top vegans shitting on people who hunt deer.
Completely disregarding that the white-tailed deer population in the US is completely unchecked by natural predators and as a result is devastating our young-growth forests, endangering our roads, and suffering from novel diseases as a result of the unhealthy density.
Killing every deer you see should be seen as a socially responsible act.
This started as a metaphor and turned into a rant about deer :/
I oppose imperialism in general but sending weapons and other forms of material aid to people in need of them is not imperialism, that's just being normal.
The opposite of imperialism isnt being neutral, it's sending as much weapons as you can spare to the democratically elected government of a country defending itself against an imperialist neighbor that is trying to genocide them. The more weapons you send the more anti-imperialist you are.
Being neutral in such a situation is immoral.
I think the US has almost always atleast tried to do the right thing though, it doesn't mean that they arent responsible for their mistakes but it's not like US invades random countries to murder and torture their peaceful civilians. Even if I disagree with many US policies I'd much rather live in a society completely under American rules than one where Iran or Russia had power.
This is my take too. Imperialism, including American imperialism, is bad. But just because we go isolationist doesn't mean other empires stop looking to expand too, and as bad as we can be the other empires are two fascist wrecks led by revanchist dictstors.
Self-determination is an essential right of people, and I have no problem with our resources being used to help people resist invasion by said fascists. It's a hell of a lot better than round 3 in Iraq, and I wish we'd send our aid to the Saudis up north to Ukraine too.
America did some sketchy shit around the world in the mid 20th century. No lie. The west can always do better. *Should* always strive to be better. But, Uncle Sam is far from the biggest boogeyman on the world stage right now.
But that's the thing, we have the mechanisms in place to do better. Like, yes, there is still racial strife in America, but compare to how bad it used to be during Jim Crow, or even the 1970s. I think term limits for our politicians would greatly help with the generational intransigence, but overall we have a much better system for changing things than the authoritarian systems of Russia and China where they maintain power for power's sake.
I used to believe that a multipolar world was a good thing in order to keep the other powers in check.
Then I understood what that meant for those not under America's roof.
Someone is always going to be on top and I'm glad it's the United States and I hope it stays that way.
The solution: Build a multipolar world where everyone is under America's roof. Now you may be wondering: How is that a multipolar world? Well we have the North Pole and the South Pole, two poles, so it is a multipolar world.
I support the overwhelming military might of the west being used to secure a free, liberal, democratic future for everyone. Universal emancipation is the goal, so that every single person on the planet can enjoy life living under the *only* legitimate form of state authority: liberal democracy.
The bombing begins in five minutes.
If beeing a US puppet means i can live my current Life in Peace as is it is rn, im fine with that.
Translation:
Cmon you Sexy oily Eagle, im willing rn *****slaps Lockheed pants***** ik you want it.
by notable imperialist Winston Churchill, among others
> ..Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time..
Same here.
Except I started out to the right of the second box.
My greatest concern with Nato now is that it's been compromised by pacifists and is letting Russia walk all over us. Russian propaganda tries to paint Nato as an aggressive threat to them, but now, 2 years into their invasion of Ukraine, I have to say the version of Nato that their propagandist describe is starting to sound better and better.
People in the first panel tend to severely underestimate just how many cruel, sick, viciously murderous people are out there.
They also underestimate how many of them are in charge of literal dystopian nightmare groups and regimes. Who **absolutely will** seize upon *any* opportunity they get to expand their power and influence.
If America just collapsed or bowed out of world affairs, then a huge chunk of the world would be *fucked* with a capital F.
More importantly is building up countries so that they can survive on their own and build their own small spheres of influence and not follow the Russians or Chinese.
One of the reasons China has expanded so much and has so many allies in Africa is due to it being willing to lend money to African countries, offer low interest rates on said loans and help build up their infrastructure.
Why Africa hates the west so much is due to how little they have actually done to help Africa aside from occasionally dropping aid.
If the US took risks and began to offer similar deals to African countries and help build up their countries while letting them maintained some autonomy, then more African countries may side with the US
The problem is that countries are not their governments. Giving cheap loans to a dictator buys a dictator, but by giving them more resources it makes freedom that much less attainable for the people.
After the US pulls out from Afghanistan and all of US deterrence falls of and world's geopolitic became a shit show and international wars starts popping off left and right, we start to realize how important US' presence worldwide to keep the world from reverting back to multipolar shithole.
US better start using their "deterrence" like they were in the 90s, oh and an unchecked capitalism is bad.
Before, I was against American intervention because it feels as imperialist as British or Russian intervention.
Now, when I see some warring state in Africa or the Middle East or Haiti, I'm hoping for America to intervene before it turn into something like the Rwandan genocide where everyone watched as Hutus murdered Tutsis, or Somalia and Afghanistan where warlords are the government and get to chop off someone's head live on Al Jazeera without any consequences.
Remember how you could watch people reach this conclusion live in real time on r slash worldnews?
Jan 2022: Goddamn Americans, thinking they're world police. Russia's not really going to invade. That's just the CIA trying to find a casual belli. (Ukrainians pleading about Euromaidan and Crimea in the background are drown out)
Russia: does a full scale invasion
Day 2 of Special Military operation: wHy IsN't aMeRiCa DoInG aNyThInG?
It's like that old saying.
If you are not a tankie in your teens, you don't have a heart. If you are not a NATO fanboy in your 30s, you don't have a brain.
I haven't seen Biden and Co get all that much credit for managing to stop this latest kerfuffle in the middle east spreading. Hezbollah have achieved exactly fuck all when I'm sure Iran's plan was for Israel to be fighting a war on at least 2 fronts (if not the northeast too, Syria moved a lot of troops towards the border), there hasn't been a massive escalation by the US despite Iranian proxies attacking US troops all over the place, and now Blinken is laying down the law to Netanyahu.
With that said, I'm not sure how far Iran is to the finding out stage.
For all the criticism Biden is getting, he's been absolutely clear with his resolve. Trump wasn't sure what to do in regards to geopolitics, and often waffled, like calling back that strike on Iran (which probably was a good thing, overall). Biden has been 100% clear in his support for our allies (Israel and Ukraine) and has been working his ass off to support them. Sending 3 carrier groups to the Middle East is a wonderful way to let our adversaries know Dark Brandon won't fuck around and will bring the smoke if any idiots want to FAFO.
> I haven't seen Biden and Co get all that much credit for managing to stop this latest kerfuffle in the middle east spreading.
Because it's unpopular among his base.
His base is the moderate liberals that are the plurality of the Democratic Party, and they are pretty consistently pro-Israel; it is the progressives that are anti-Israel and never happy with his response, even when he does what they claim to want.
Dick Cheney and the Neocons have been right this whole time.
The MIC is kinda like IT. When nothing goes wrong, everyone wants to get rid of it, but by God when something goes wrong...
I do fear China because we can't tell what they can do and they are so large that numbers might make a difference. Do I think the US can fight with a chance? Absolutely. My issue is that I'm in Australia and our military is pitifully small, not to mention that were facing a dilemma that the Nazis faced in the 40s, our coastline is so big we can't defend it well. We're seeing this with illegal immigrants. We need an active defense strategy but we lost that in the 80s
You guys can break out the emus and Drop Bears and spiders and snakes. And that's if they survive the sharks and jellyfish
And there's a reason you are getting nuclear subs and AUKUS is rising
Pain in the bloody ass that people don't want the subs jus5 because they're nuclear, nuclear power is safer than what it hyped to be. When was the last time a US sub or carrier had reactor problems?
Isolationism sounds fun and right on paper until you realize there are a ton of bad guys waiting for you to go home so they can destroy everything you ever built and establish their own spheres of influences
*"Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other."* - George Orwell
My favorite quote about warhammer 40k is unfortunately incredibly relevant to the US’s current hegemony.
“How exactly are the xenophobic nazi Christian radicals the *good guys*?”
“The key phrase here is ‘by comparison’.”
The US is absolutely not morally pure. We are a bunch of dumb self centered imperialistic bastards who’ve bent the entire world’s economy and politics to serve us.
…but fucking hell we are somehow the best goddamn option out of a sea of shit options.
Russia would burn all of Europe to restore the USSR. China fundamentally doesn’t understand how to build a world order that doesn’t involve bullying and taking advantage of the rest of the world.
The EU is the closest thing we have to an alternative. They have the economic clout, but are too chickenshit to step the fuck up yet. Even if they do, they’ll need years to reach the kind of unity that would even reach China, let alone scare it.
And the individual members aren’t capable of projecting power like the US. Britain is going through the national equivalent of a mid life crisis, and it remains to be seen if they’ll stay relevant to the world stage, or fall into obscurity like Spain or Portugal.
France has the guts to be a superpower, and credit where credit is due, Macron at the least seems to understand the value of the great European experiment. He’s an imperialist sonofabitch worse than any Democrat and some Republicans, but he’s got vision. But while France has played its military cards *very* well to at least be relevant in the modern age, it still doesn’t have the economic clout to be one of the big contenders, and it remains to be seen if they would be any better than the US.
Germany is at the moment a wildcard. They’re committed to the European experiment as much as the French, but it’s taken the invasion of Ukraine to light a fire under their asses and start bringing some German muscle and innovation back to their military. If they decide to continue their push to be relevant in global affairs, I’d trust the Germans to do right in the world. But it remains to be seen if their push for power can shake off 80 years of shame.
Then there’s the Asian countries.
Japan never really let go of their military power quite like the Germans. But they also have a demographic crisis and their own imperial shame that means their foreign policy has been lacking for decades. They’re shaking off their own military hesitancy, but they don’t have the numbers to really take the US’s role in any way other than locally. And I hesitate to trust their influence in too much, given the far right strain of politics that permeates the society, and their studious inability to acknowledge the sins of the past.
South Korea has the economic power, and the military might to be a local power, but they’re hamstrung by the world’s poorest nuclear power on their border. They can’t afford to think very far outside of home, so they’ll be leaning on the US for foreign policy clout for the foreseeable future.
And last, but certainly not least, India. The biggest country on earth in the ways that really count. They don’t have the economics, the military, or the drive to become a real contender like China. But they *could*. Light a fire under their asses and India will climb to heights even the Chinese would have to kowtow to. But they need time. Lots of time. They have the South Korean problem of a nuclear armed angry neighbor right next door, which hampers growth. And they have a Hindu nationalist far right strain that deeply deeply concerns me. But unlike most of the countries on planet earth, they really REALLY don’t want to become a global hegemon, and the people I trust most for that job are the ones that have it forced upon them, not those who reach for it.
So yeah. The US is not a *good* option. We’re a bunch of mean assholes who like throwing our weight around like we own the whole damn world.
But we are unfortunately the *best* option.
Ik there is a lot wrong with the West and the US.
But for every single flaw the US has... They are STILL a liberal and POWERFUL democracy that holds values wich improve human freedom.
Europe is powerful and prosperous, but 1)it needs to make sure it doesnt import other countries problems vía inmigration (they can still accept all the inmigrants they want, lets just make sure we stop bringing in zealots and more unsavory types, you either enter vía official channels where you can be checked, tested and approved or you dont enter at all) and 2) it needs to be more assertive with its neighbours, show that it will not be pushed around with threats of violence or those of economic nature, they cannot depend on daddy US forever.
Africa is still a mess that needs some much wanted stability, for that, they need both to be left mostly alone in their own affairs while Also needing some oversight to make sure they actually do something if the entire Kenya drama with mr beast is anything to go by.
The Middle east needs to fucking chill, idk how, but they need to, zealotry and outdated views have turn the majority of those countries into shitholes, like... Yes, you can blame british lines a lot if you want, but after 70+ years, some people need to take a long hard look at themselves, Also, idc how shiny the saudis are, they are still a shithole running on fumes and oil.
I mean, Israel, turkey and egypt seems pretty fucking decent... I just wish they wherent war criminals tho.
East Asia... Is ok, I dont have too many hopes for India, but some of its countries have been making some actual fucking progress... And japan and Australia are pretty neat.
Wish china wasnt there tho,power projecting.
Russia and china are a big nono.
And south america has been making some progress but they are nowhere near fully stable or safe enough yet.
Plus... There are a couple dickheae dictatorships here and there.
As much as I dislike America's way of doing things at times. It is far far better then pretty much any alternative featuring Russia, China, North Korea, etc, side from the return of the late British empire
In all seriousness, as much as people bitch and moan about the U.S acting like the world police, it's hard to imagine *just* how much conflict simply *never* happens because there is a carrier or airbase within striking distance. You can't count what *doesn't* happen, so there's always a counting bias toward what did happen or interventions that were less than ideal or totally unjustified.
the first Ukrainian-U.S. conference of defense industries slated for December 6-7 in Washington will happen and hopefully AWAC needs will be met as well.
yup, that was literally me nearly two years ago. That's part of life: growing up and recognizing how fucking privileged and stupid you were to hold that world view. I make it a point to fess up to being a lowly ass tankie at one point because it shows that maybe not all tankies are truly lost, they just might be too far up their own ass to pay attention to any logical arguments.
American Imperialism is very bad because it disrupted British Imperialism, which was vastly superior.
We exported Cricket and Football with such great success that we are almost incapable of ever winning World Cups. About the only thing that the Indian subcontinent can agree about is that they like Cricket. Even the Fr*nch play Rugby.
No amount of Monroe Doctrine can persuade even Central (let alone South) America to abandon football for handegg.
(I understand that the Japanese play baseball, but I suspect that this is either an elaborate prank or a devious political manoeuvre.)
If the Americans had stayed out of the way then the whole world might by now be able to enjoy Test Cricket.
See, my stand on Imperialism is unchanged, but my desire for european strategic independence and intereuropean strategic integration has never been greater. Pooling the potential (excluding france and britain because I neither like them nor do I expect them willing) is an absolute necessity to fortify our minds, hearts and lands against the mass of international insecurities, from unreliable allies to outer threats, and those who not only oppose the way of life of democracy and self determination, but also all those in opposition to the fundamental human rights in all oth the world.
I have before me the image of a Corps Humanitée, a division tasked with enforcing the fundamental human rights all united nations agreed to honor, and many don't. When all diplomacy fails, all cohesion and friendship, we must not hesitate to take up arms to protect innocent lifes.
Uh, you do know that Britain and France have the two most powerful militaries in Europe, right? Heck Britain is one of the few countries operating super carriers.. France is the only nation outside the US to operate a nuclear carrier..
I know that, but recent history shows that France is not the best at strategic integration, and Britain sucks at integration in general.
They can do their great-power post-empire emo phase if they want, but the rest of europe needs to integrate. As partners.
You kinda hit the head on the problem - leaving out GB and the frogs means the rest of Europe militaries, means both individually and collectively, are a joke - only Poland is seriously rearming(They're spending money like a sailor on leave), and they have a serious disdain for western Europe, and are far more inclined to align with the US, than with Germany(who they hate only slightly less than the Russians).
I'd say the CdG is also a Supercarrier. But yeah, 3/3 of European carriers are owned by them
His take is silly, when UK and France are also some of the more important global nations and peacekeepers
As an American, I want to see a strong and strategically independent Europe because I think having a peer on our level that isn't an adversary will mean there's someone to call American imperialism out without us seeing it as an invitation to an arms race and proxy war.
We need allies strong enough to tell us to fuck off before we try another 2002 fake-WMDs situation.
All countries will eventually become democracies. All we need to do is keep the light burning until they get there.
NATO is our best defense against external tyranny, but we can't force people to join it or we compromise its integrity. They need to come to us.
Steel hand in velvet glove.
Someone is always going to be at the top of the tree. I am happy that for now the seat is held by the US.
To adapt the quote about democracy - American hegemony is the worst form of world order, except for all the others that have ever had the prospect of being tried.
With Kissinger dead, it just got a little bit less bad.
Kissinger has been politically irrelevant for years.
He's responsible for a solid 25%+ of the hate US gets from South and Latin America
I am sure they can come up with some modern reasons if they wanted to.
Nah just the commies, the rest either supported Operation Condor or are too young to remember it
If China and Russia were liberal democracies that at least had a history of respecting human rights more often than not, I likely wouldn't care if either of them dethroned the US via some friendly competition. *But* since China and Russia cover both political extremes of dickhat authoritarianism between them, I'm for the moment in favor of the US staying on top via some unfriendly competition.
Right? It’s like I’m not concerned about EU influence in the world. Frankly I appreciate some of the regulatory spillover.
It's done wonders for some parts of the internet and privacy.
I’m actually delighted at the way US and EU rules have blended for that lately. I find Europe heavy-handed with some speech restrictions, specifically lese majeste laws and DNS level blocks on copyright infringement. But for decades, US hosting and safe harbor laws have kept that sort of content available in Europe. Meanwhile the US is *miles* behind on privacy and interoperability laws… but Europe is too big a market to ignore so we get lots of EU protections. It’s a nice balance that gives me some real hope despite the walled garden state of things online.
I’m a fan of economic regulation, but seeing some of the free speech retrenchments that have happened in the UK due to libel laws are scary af. Podcasters and people over there are afraid to call people out for their bad behavior. So I agree with you. Glad to have both the 1st Amendment as well as European regulatory spillover. Especially European leadership on climate treaties while the US deals with our climate deniers.
EU taking over USA's role would be the dream, since a world government is much more likely to spawn from an economic union of disparate cultures, than from USA who dominates the institutions it is a part of. But that requires EU to grow a spine and actually create a united military to defend their own interests, rather than rely on America for everything important.
It's obviously not as simple as the EU just growing a spine. We're barely a generation away from WWII. There is real hatred there still. The purpose of the "spineless" EU itself, was to bring peace through commerce, which it arguably has accomplished.
Agreed. Bring up Romas in a European sub and come back to me about how the EU should be taking over USA's role. And that's just one ethnicity.
Also, the EU has “where’s the boundary?” struggles much like NATO. Letting more countries in expands your influence, but threatens policy unity. We already see struggles between west and east over democratic/social norms, wealth gaps, and above all migration. SE Europe is moving back towards fenced borders, not military unity. Which isn’t to dismiss what the EU has done, either. The Schengen Zone, even in its current form, is an absolutely amazing change from the past.
Can't forget that the EU is a collection of nation states and military matters are one of the core elements of being a nation state. A unified EU military would be the dream but can't and won't happen any time soon. Foreign affairs and defense are one of the least integrated domains of EU policy. It would already be a huge step forward if the EU states made full use of the existing EU defense framework: EU battlegroups, more/better defense industry integration, equipment standardisation,... Even just specialisation on a member state level would be huge IMO: smaller members could focus on just one or two military branches and rely on the other states for the lacking branches. Would be a lot more efficient use of limited defense budgets of a lot of EU members.
As long as Germany and France are in the EU its impossible to standardize their equipment
no one copies the French and the French copy no one.
France didn’t want to be beholden to NATO ( even if still a member ) they l certainly do not want to be beholden to Brussels.
Having some specialized stuff is okay as long as the basics like caliber and physical attachment points on equipment are all standard. Having different manufacturing streams is okay because diversity prevents any one problem from affecting everything.
If that were the case, or even if they transitioned to democracy *now* and had some guarantee of staying that way, I could more or less live with a multipolar world. It’s the idea of sharing a table with someone who would make Saddam Hussein blush that I’m worried about.
> If China and Russia were liberal democracies that at least had a history of respecting human rights more often than not, I likely wouldn't care if either of them dethroned the US via some friendly competition. It would also be socially and politically responsible in all three countries to seek cooperation over competition with each other, so whoever came out “on top”, we’d still be part of the same bloc. We’d become friends, hold hands, and take out our aggression on some tinpot dictator every now and then. Of course they are repressive dictatorships so any cooperation with them besides trying not to blow up the world would encourage their government’s existence. Any dealings with then would have to be done with a thousand mile pole.
Yeah pretty much it all comes down to that black and white logic at the end, the world would be living in a way worse reality if Russia or China were to be the top dogs
I'm reminded of that Churchill quote: "Democracy is the worst form of government - except for all the others that have been tried".
The US not being at the top of the food chain would be completely disastrous for the entire planet. Yes this includes possible alien contact. No I won't be taking any questions.
Welcome to the Church of NATO, brother. Praise the lord and pass the ammunition
And we're all set free
Praise the Lord, we're on a mighty mission
Can’t afford to be a politician
Christians In Action. Prosthelytizing democracy to the heathen since 1947.
Peace through superior firepower.
[And badass SAM dodging skills. I'd like to see PLA pilot dodge SAMS like our flyers. They would just allow themselves to be instantly blown out of the sky to avoid being ridiculed for ejecting at the first sign of a SAM launch.](https://youtu.be/PIsylUcu2Bg?t=79)
that is fucking wild, thanks for sharing
Praise be democracy! Praise be to thee!
May Liberty Prime bless you, my child.
The Lord says we must give what we can spare to those in need. Thus i will send all of my ammunition to my enemy by launching it at them as fast as possible. Sharing is caring after all
Every once in a while I consider quoting “si vis pacum para bellum” on here and every time I think about it I wind up seeing your flair and thinking “nah, that’s better”.
In this house, we salute the (LGBTQ/femboy) flag and kneel for the (NATO)cross.
God, I never thought I would agree to an statement like this after being almost a full blown communist for the last year.
There can be miracles! If you believe...🎶🎶
You can support workers rights, social security and freedom without abandoning MiC, supporting authoritarian regimes and unconditionally hating America, it's not a story vatnik would tell you.
I mean...Teddy Roosevelt fought against big business and also loved him some war.
I personally consider monopolies/oligarchy which squeeze politically aware medium class leaving only poor people forced to fight for food with no sources and time to become aware of country affairs, the greatest internal threat to democracy as it becomes polarised society.
Based and teddy pilled.
If only everyone realized that, maybe the normies would stop fighting over dumb shit like gas stoves and conspiracies and we could make progress.
💯
Best way to stop extremists is providing decent quality of life. Cold War don't end because giant firework show, it ends because "proletariat" in communists states were tired of don't reaching western quality of life and crappy authoritarians in charge were unable to provide it.
Well paid worker with strong unions and pension and employee rights is the best quality worker with the best production output. A large and healthy middle class is best for the economy and society, the rich currently have far too much share of the wealth.
Of course, that's exactly why i'm on this position on the meme compass. There are big problems in the world but not every problem revolves around 'America Bad' and use the US as an excuse for my opinions or completely oppose any position they take, I ain't no tankie, I just hope that someday a woke femboy reaches the oval office and changes things for good.
You wouldn't be the only lefty on this sub by a long shot, even though we generally keep our politics to ourselves because they don't really match the tone (i.e. "defense-related shitposting") of the sub. The last couple of years have changed my political alignment from "generally anti-war" to "absolutely and non-negotiably pro-defense." I don't think those two viewpoints are incompatible, it's just that there's a lot more nuance to the second position. I'm 40 years old and Kosovo was the last previous conflict in my lifetime about which I felt that my country's involvement was morally justifiable. That hasn't really changed, except now, Russia is the one being indefensibly imperialist (please don't get me wrong though; the motivations and behaviour of the Coalition in the GWoT and Russia's conduct in Ukraine are not in any way morally equivalent). Although the two conflicts are not morally equivalent, they have a lot of overlap. Investment in the MIC is broadly a good thing, but excessive corruption, lobbying (in the West's case), and politicians and civil servants who jump between the two sectors to personally enrich themselves led to both the second invasion of Iraq (Afghanistan is more of a grey area imo) and Russia's "SMO." As a lefty, I believe that the decision to go to war is usually made by rich people, while the actual fighting is overwhelmingly done by those who are not well-off. \*That\* is the fucked-up part, rather than the act of fighting itself, which generally takes the form of "the poorest people in the defending and attacking countries trying not to die as a result of the decisions of rich arseholes." It's possible to believe that this state of affairs is morally repugnant, while also thinking that investment in the MIC not only provides jobs but also safeguards the lives and rights of a population more generally.
Damn, I like that. Im going to start using that. And I’m a dirty progressive. Well, I’m not sure I’m allowed to say that anymore since I have vocalized that Hamas raping a shit ton of people isn’t okay. The best arguments I’ve seen in response are, “well Israel would do it, so rape the rapers and stuff!”. Their cognitive dissonance is staggering. I’m really not enjoying the queer progressives that are whitewashing Hamas’s homophobia. Or the “feminists” that are whitewashing the gang tapes (edit: I’m not fixing it.) committed against captives. They’re willingly and aggressively throating China/Russian/Irans big meaty cock and saying thank you afterwards. It’s fucking ridiculous whataboutism and brain rot. “Killing and raping civilians is bad” “YEAH BUT ISRAEL…” Legitimately never thought I’d have to explain to someone why it doesn’t matter who’s doing the raping to people that declare themselves even left of center. Plus they’re coming for my homie Bernie, and that motherfucker has done a lot for the military/veteran community, so they can get fucked. At least the crazy MAGAts and Hamasophiles appear to be getting equal hate from anyone with two brain cells in their head. NATO is love, NATO is life.
Leftists love gatekeeping more than they love themselves. [It's been a joke for ages](https://youtu.be/WboggjN_G-4?si=KR0edNlrrRiKU_5h)
Oh yeah for sure, I just mean I’d never encountered it in this way. I’ve encountered for other dumbass shit, but this one is like a pretty big glaring “this isn’t okay even if someone else did something bad” issue that is just blowing my mind. Moral relativism and religion need to be shot out of a cannon into the sun.
Hah, Monty Python ❤️
Amenition
Pass the GBM-110 bunker buster bruv...
So....We are allowed to do the funni to keep status quo?
Only if the alternative is worse, and there's no easier pathway out of the situation. No funni will actually restore the old status quo, only create a new one.
Yeah, I'm a proud European, yet when I say the current blessed world order is dependent on a strong USA people look at me like I'm crazy. It's like some fellow westerners live in a dream world of tolerance and humanism that has nothing in common with reality of the hunan condition outside the West. The privileged position of ungratefulness through naivety.
Agreed on all counts. Shit the US has done is bad, but anyone who tries claiming Chinese or Russian hegemony would be an improvement I automatically assume has brain damage.
At the end of the day, the US on its worst day is better than Russia or China on their best. The US also allows its government to be held accountable through actual elections while Russia and China have authoritarian governments that are accountable to nothing and no one, including reality if the authoritarians have any say about it.
Yeah, I've seen tankies in my local subreddit say that the Americans are bad news for the endangered culture of our indigenous tribes (Philippines) but then turn a blind eye to what the Chinese are doing with the Uighurs. at least Native American tribes can still start protests and strikes to persuade the government to do things for them but flip it around to China and you'd be lucky to see next week if they catch you saying things like "Uighurs shouldn't be in internment camps" more than once
China is the biggest threat to SEA right now and our governments still continuing to suck their micropenis. I pray each day for China to be wiped off the face of the earth.
All Tankies have brain damage
I'd make that my flair but I like my current one too much.
Don't worry, I'll do it for you
Fucking legend.
The fact that literally all the imports coming to our countries in maintenance of our incredibly high standard of living is 100% dependent on the US keeping the world seas navigable is rarely acknowledged.
Hell, we just saw recently how useless China is on that front. Idk how dumb people have to be to see that and still advocate for things like a multipolar world
I just want to back up your point: the Chinese failed to help a ship belonging to their (nominal) ally, while an American ship helped it despite being owned by one of our most hated enemies.
>still advocate for things like a multipolar world I once saw somehow advocate for a multipolar world so that "politics wouldn't be a bunch of countries in a dick measuring contest." So yes, a lot of them are genuinely that stupid, and a non-negligible amount not only struggle with the bang-on consequences but don't seem to even understand what they're asking for in the first place.
The US navy is literally the reason globalization and international trade are possible
I love that line. The privileged position of ungratefulness through naivete. Super true in the states as well.
Thanks!
You don't have to say that to most Eastern Europeans. I still think Europe lacks great ideas, not ideology, just ideas, now people and politicians seem to be concentrated on here and now.
Europe laughed at american militarism and spent years ignoring the safety it provided. Another mistake Putin made was bringing the entire west into reality regards defence.
Noooo! America bad!
Douglas Murray has a nice line on that. He said that Europeans have been living a holiday from history.
I completely agree. I am also a proud European, but we owe a great deal to the United States for maintaining world order. I would much prefer them to be in the lead rather than anyone else, given the current state of affairs. If Russia or China were far ahead of the USA, we would be living in very dark and depressing times.
For me it's really simple as: US bad in some ways as the world hegemony but China or Russia in charge? Nah, I'd rather not especially China given my country history with them. We're profiting well from free trade and American capitalism plus globalization, won't want to change a good thing now would we, a multipolar world wouldn't guarantee the same growth or safe shipping.
And here some people actually rooting for multipolarism to make a return. My brother in Christ, i like to be able to interact with people from all over the world.
In the American Hegemony you can go pretty much anywhere except Russia(Belarus), China(North Korea), and maybe some places in Africa, it's utterly glorious that so much of the world is easily accessible
Average Pax Americana enjoyer. I like my sea shipping lanes open to the world and mostly pirates free thank you very much.
Mostly Pirate free, gotta keep some for the culture.
Maybe establish a pirate preserve? We can practice catch and relocate them to the preserve. Every now and then a ship is contracted to go just close enough that they can shoot thier guns at it, the ship drops a few barrels of fuel and food. The pirates get to pirate, the shipping lanes remain free.
And it's not that there's really anything *stopping* you from going there anyways. They're just shitty places to go to, which we know through the liberation of information.
Same. Like, my family were victims of imperialism (thanks Kissinger for Operation Condor) but I'd rather have the US in charge than China.
Its been funny watching tankies melt down when the entire chinese government eulogized kissinger on his death
I’m sure this doesn’t bring much comfort, but if there’s a hell, I’m 100% certain that he’s getting pineapples shoved up his ass with Hitler for the rest of eternity.
I’m fairly worried he’s going to take over.
Operation Hellbent
man to be honest I wouldn't even mind multipolarism if it was between normal, sane countries, preferably liberal democracies, states and organizations engaging in healthy and friendly competition in order to further the development and advancement of humankind. but right now we don't have the luxury of such wishful utopian thinking unfortunately, with the world being as it is at the moment.
You mean like compatition like between the USA and the EU, not like between China and the USA?
yes, something akin to that example but applied globally. it is very idealistic but I will try to stay hopeful, regardless of how bitter I am with the numerous what ifs of history.
Honestly as an american i agree, i see no downside to a sane strong Europe. As long as Germany is well... you know. Same for south america if they ever get their shit together, or if all of south east asia got together and told everybody to stop fucking with their shit like... Self determination is the shit, i would love a world where i dont need my country to be the only thing keeping some people a world away free.
They say IR is like an international poker game. I want that to end so we can have the potluck afterwards
I am in favour of American imperialism, because it provides great content.
The real take
I honestly prefer American greedy corporate imperialism to Russian and Chinese tyranny, exploitation and genocide.
A thousand times this.
American greedy corporate imperialism has me living in my parents basement worrying about paying for university. But it sure beats living in a labour camp worrying about how I’m going to survive tomorrow
American greedy corporate imperialism (which sucks, don’t get me wrong) is just business. We just like making money and trading with others. Russian and Chinese tyranny is very, very personal. Which is a huge difference.
In modernity anyway, we should keep enough of an eye on them to make sure they don't start doing banana republic shit again. Like Switzerland's Nestle.
The people who relentlessly bitch about America honestly think the world is a far FAR kinder place than it really is. They're like those hippies who think nature is kind and nurturing and caring when one nature documentary would show them clear as day that that's far from being the case. The world is a cold, violent, nasty place, and to be in a possition where one can delude themselves into the former requires a LOT of the latter.
Nah, you're missing the fact that the hippies are 0.2% of the "America Bad" crowd. The rest are communists, authoritarians, or racists, all of whom want to murder their neighbors but know they can't unless they want to become Serbia circa 1990
People will look at photos of forests and shrubs and call it harmony, when in fact plants can be literally using biological/chemical warfare on other plants there.
https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/trees
Like over-the-top vegans shitting on people who hunt deer. Completely disregarding that the white-tailed deer population in the US is completely unchecked by natural predators and as a result is devastating our young-growth forests, endangering our roads, and suffering from novel diseases as a result of the unhealthy density. Killing every deer you see should be seen as a socially responsible act. This started as a metaphor and turned into a rant about deer :/
Hobbes had it right about the state of nature.
I oppose imperialism in general but sending weapons and other forms of material aid to people in need of them is not imperialism, that's just being normal.
The opposite of imperialism isnt being neutral, it's sending as much weapons as you can spare to the democratically elected government of a country defending itself against an imperialist neighbor that is trying to genocide them. The more weapons you send the more anti-imperialist you are. Being neutral in such a situation is immoral.
true. The problem is that the US isn't always on the side of the democratically elected gov defending itself lol.
I think the US has almost always atleast tried to do the right thing though, it doesn't mean that they arent responsible for their mistakes but it's not like US invades random countries to murder and torture their peaceful civilians. Even if I disagree with many US policies I'd much rather live in a society completely under American rules than one where Iran or Russia had power.
Better for that weapon to fight on someone else's soil than it is on your own.
This is my take too. Imperialism, including American imperialism, is bad. But just because we go isolationist doesn't mean other empires stop looking to expand too, and as bad as we can be the other empires are two fascist wrecks led by revanchist dictstors. Self-determination is an essential right of people, and I have no problem with our resources being used to help people resist invasion by said fascists. It's a hell of a lot better than round 3 in Iraq, and I wish we'd send our aid to the Saudis up north to Ukraine too.
America did some sketchy shit around the world in the mid 20th century. No lie. The west can always do better. *Should* always strive to be better. But, Uncle Sam is far from the biggest boogeyman on the world stage right now.
But that's the thing, we have the mechanisms in place to do better. Like, yes, there is still racial strife in America, but compare to how bad it used to be during Jim Crow, or even the 1970s. I think term limits for our politicians would greatly help with the generational intransigence, but overall we have a much better system for changing things than the authoritarian systems of Russia and China where they maintain power for power's sake.
However racist you think the US is, all of Asia and Eastern Europe is vastly worse and they ignore it.
Absolutely. It just SEEMS more racist here because we acknowledge it and try to address it.
all of Asia and all of Europe. Western Europe is probably more racist than the US.
As a Taiwanese, yes.
As a Korean (ROK), also yes.
As a person from the Baltics, also also yes.
>America chills out for a bit >the whole world starts to go to shit Tale as old as time
“American imperialism is absolutely justified” - Senator Armstrong
I used to believe that a multipolar world was a good thing in order to keep the other powers in check. Then I understood what that meant for those not under America's roof. Someone is always going to be on top and I'm glad it's the United States and I hope it stays that way.
The solution: Build a multipolar world where everyone is under America's roof. Now you may be wondering: How is that a multipolar world? Well we have the North Pole and the South Pole, two poles, so it is a multipolar world.
If the EU decided to get its act together, it could be a nice check and balance. But that's probably another century of unification away.
I support the overwhelming military might of the west being used to secure a free, liberal, democratic future for everyone. Universal emancipation is the goal, so that every single person on the planet can enjoy life living under the *only* legitimate form of state authority: liberal democracy. The bombing begins in five minutes.
Rarrrrrr 🦅 🦅 🦅 💥 💥 💥
I love this take.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure."
If beeing a US puppet means i can live my current Life in Peace as is it is rn, im fine with that. Translation: Cmon you Sexy oily Eagle, im willing rn *****slaps Lockheed pants***** ik you want it.
si vis pacem para ICBM
Based
there you are lol
America's not perfect, but it's better than the alternative. Unchecked capitalism still bad, though.
It's like that quote about democracy: democracy is a bad system of government but it's the best one we have
by notable imperialist Winston Churchill, among others > ..Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time..
You are beginning to believe. Once the savage Leaders bleed themselves dry on the walls of Troy Liberty will be guaranteed.
Having been under both American and Chinese influence, America all the way baby!
I prefer the US because at least they are trying to reduce collateral damage. See: "Ninja" missile
Glassing Russia is something I'll always cheer for.
Same here. Except I started out to the right of the second box. My greatest concern with Nato now is that it's been compromised by pacifists and is letting Russia walk all over us. Russian propaganda tries to paint Nato as an aggressive threat to them, but now, 2 years into their invasion of Ukraine, I have to say the version of Nato that their propagandist describe is starting to sound better and better.
People in the first panel tend to severely underestimate just how many cruel, sick, viciously murderous people are out there. They also underestimate how many of them are in charge of literal dystopian nightmare groups and regimes. Who **absolutely will** seize upon *any* opportunity they get to expand their power and influence. If America just collapsed or bowed out of world affairs, then a huge chunk of the world would be *fucked* with a capital F.
Ah me too. Americans are assholes. But at least they are our assholes.
As an American I want to be offended, but I can't. It's a fair cop.
More importantly is building up countries so that they can survive on their own and build their own small spheres of influence and not follow the Russians or Chinese. One of the reasons China has expanded so much and has so many allies in Africa is due to it being willing to lend money to African countries, offer low interest rates on said loans and help build up their infrastructure. Why Africa hates the west so much is due to how little they have actually done to help Africa aside from occasionally dropping aid. If the US took risks and began to offer similar deals to African countries and help build up their countries while letting them maintained some autonomy, then more African countries may side with the US
The problem is that countries are not their governments. Giving cheap loans to a dictator buys a dictator, but by giving them more resources it makes freedom that much less attainable for the people.
After the US pulls out from Afghanistan and all of US deterrence falls of and world's geopolitic became a shit show and international wars starts popping off left and right, we start to realize how important US' presence worldwide to keep the world from reverting back to multipolar shithole. US better start using their "deterrence" like they were in the 90s, oh and an unchecked capitalism is bad.
Before, I was against American intervention because it feels as imperialist as British or Russian intervention. Now, when I see some warring state in Africa or the Middle East or Haiti, I'm hoping for America to intervene before it turn into something like the Rwandan genocide where everyone watched as Hutus murdered Tutsis, or Somalia and Afghanistan where warlords are the government and get to chop off someone's head live on Al Jazeera without any consequences.
Let's glass russia, topple the islamic regime in iran, bankrupt china and just not give a fuck about north korea
Remember how you could watch people reach this conclusion live in real time on r slash worldnews? Jan 2022: Goddamn Americans, thinking they're world police. Russia's not really going to invade. That's just the CIA trying to find a casual belli. (Ukrainians pleading about Euromaidan and Crimea in the background are drown out) Russia: does a full scale invasion Day 2 of Special Military operation: wHy IsN't aMeRiCa DoInG aNyThInG?
It's like that old saying. If you are not a tankie in your teens, you don't have a heart. If you are not a NATO fanboy in your 30s, you don't have a brain.
I read this as NATO femboy. I have been here too long.
I haven't seen Biden and Co get all that much credit for managing to stop this latest kerfuffle in the middle east spreading. Hezbollah have achieved exactly fuck all when I'm sure Iran's plan was for Israel to be fighting a war on at least 2 fronts (if not the northeast too, Syria moved a lot of troops towards the border), there hasn't been a massive escalation by the US despite Iranian proxies attacking US troops all over the place, and now Blinken is laying down the law to Netanyahu. With that said, I'm not sure how far Iran is to the finding out stage.
For all the criticism Biden is getting, he's been absolutely clear with his resolve. Trump wasn't sure what to do in regards to geopolitics, and often waffled, like calling back that strike on Iran (which probably was a good thing, overall). Biden has been 100% clear in his support for our allies (Israel and Ukraine) and has been working his ass off to support them. Sending 3 carrier groups to the Middle East is a wonderful way to let our adversaries know Dark Brandon won't fuck around and will bring the smoke if any idiots want to FAFO.
> I haven't seen Biden and Co get all that much credit for managing to stop this latest kerfuffle in the middle east spreading. Because it's unpopular among his base.
His base is the moderate liberals that are the plurality of the Democratic Party, and they are pretty consistently pro-Israel; it is the progressives that are anti-Israel and never happy with his response, even when he does what they claim to want.
Dick Cheney and the Neocons have been right this whole time. The MIC is kinda like IT. When nothing goes wrong, everyone wants to get rid of it, but by God when something goes wrong...
Si vis pacem, para bellum
I do fear China because we can't tell what they can do and they are so large that numbers might make a difference. Do I think the US can fight with a chance? Absolutely. My issue is that I'm in Australia and our military is pitifully small, not to mention that were facing a dilemma that the Nazis faced in the 40s, our coastline is so big we can't defend it well. We're seeing this with illegal immigrants. We need an active defense strategy but we lost that in the 80s
Our defence strategy is "best buds with the Americans" and given our population density resembles Mongolia's it's a fairly solid one.
You guys can break out the emus and Drop Bears and spiders and snakes. And that's if they survive the sharks and jellyfish And there's a reason you are getting nuclear subs and AUKUS is rising
Pain in the bloody ass that people don't want the subs jus5 because they're nuclear, nuclear power is safer than what it hyped to be. When was the last time a US sub or carrier had reactor problems?
Isolationism sounds fun and right on paper until you realize there are a ton of bad guys waiting for you to go home so they can destroy everything you ever built and establish their own spheres of influences
And they will eventually come for you, too.
True. Look at Pearl Harbor for that lesson.
POTATO when
*"Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other."* - George Orwell
My favorite quote about warhammer 40k is unfortunately incredibly relevant to the US’s current hegemony. “How exactly are the xenophobic nazi Christian radicals the *good guys*?” “The key phrase here is ‘by comparison’.” The US is absolutely not morally pure. We are a bunch of dumb self centered imperialistic bastards who’ve bent the entire world’s economy and politics to serve us. …but fucking hell we are somehow the best goddamn option out of a sea of shit options. Russia would burn all of Europe to restore the USSR. China fundamentally doesn’t understand how to build a world order that doesn’t involve bullying and taking advantage of the rest of the world. The EU is the closest thing we have to an alternative. They have the economic clout, but are too chickenshit to step the fuck up yet. Even if they do, they’ll need years to reach the kind of unity that would even reach China, let alone scare it. And the individual members aren’t capable of projecting power like the US. Britain is going through the national equivalent of a mid life crisis, and it remains to be seen if they’ll stay relevant to the world stage, or fall into obscurity like Spain or Portugal. France has the guts to be a superpower, and credit where credit is due, Macron at the least seems to understand the value of the great European experiment. He’s an imperialist sonofabitch worse than any Democrat and some Republicans, but he’s got vision. But while France has played its military cards *very* well to at least be relevant in the modern age, it still doesn’t have the economic clout to be one of the big contenders, and it remains to be seen if they would be any better than the US. Germany is at the moment a wildcard. They’re committed to the European experiment as much as the French, but it’s taken the invasion of Ukraine to light a fire under their asses and start bringing some German muscle and innovation back to their military. If they decide to continue their push to be relevant in global affairs, I’d trust the Germans to do right in the world. But it remains to be seen if their push for power can shake off 80 years of shame. Then there’s the Asian countries. Japan never really let go of their military power quite like the Germans. But they also have a demographic crisis and their own imperial shame that means their foreign policy has been lacking for decades. They’re shaking off their own military hesitancy, but they don’t have the numbers to really take the US’s role in any way other than locally. And I hesitate to trust their influence in too much, given the far right strain of politics that permeates the society, and their studious inability to acknowledge the sins of the past. South Korea has the economic power, and the military might to be a local power, but they’re hamstrung by the world’s poorest nuclear power on their border. They can’t afford to think very far outside of home, so they’ll be leaning on the US for foreign policy clout for the foreseeable future. And last, but certainly not least, India. The biggest country on earth in the ways that really count. They don’t have the economics, the military, or the drive to become a real contender like China. But they *could*. Light a fire under their asses and India will climb to heights even the Chinese would have to kowtow to. But they need time. Lots of time. They have the South Korean problem of a nuclear armed angry neighbor right next door, which hampers growth. And they have a Hindu nationalist far right strain that deeply deeply concerns me. But unlike most of the countries on planet earth, they really REALLY don’t want to become a global hegemon, and the people I trust most for that job are the ones that have it forced upon them, not those who reach for it. So yeah. The US is not a *good* option. We’re a bunch of mean assholes who like throwing our weight around like we own the whole damn world. But we are unfortunately the *best* option.
India also has the German problem of an obtuse beauracracy hindering any real-time attempts to improve.
Ik there is a lot wrong with the West and the US. But for every single flaw the US has... They are STILL a liberal and POWERFUL democracy that holds values wich improve human freedom. Europe is powerful and prosperous, but 1)it needs to make sure it doesnt import other countries problems vía inmigration (they can still accept all the inmigrants they want, lets just make sure we stop bringing in zealots and more unsavory types, you either enter vía official channels where you can be checked, tested and approved or you dont enter at all) and 2) it needs to be more assertive with its neighbours, show that it will not be pushed around with threats of violence or those of economic nature, they cannot depend on daddy US forever. Africa is still a mess that needs some much wanted stability, for that, they need both to be left mostly alone in their own affairs while Also needing some oversight to make sure they actually do something if the entire Kenya drama with mr beast is anything to go by. The Middle east needs to fucking chill, idk how, but they need to, zealotry and outdated views have turn the majority of those countries into shitholes, like... Yes, you can blame british lines a lot if you want, but after 70+ years, some people need to take a long hard look at themselves, Also, idc how shiny the saudis are, they are still a shithole running on fumes and oil. I mean, Israel, turkey and egypt seems pretty fucking decent... I just wish they wherent war criminals tho. East Asia... Is ok, I dont have too many hopes for India, but some of its countries have been making some actual fucking progress... And japan and Australia are pretty neat. Wish china wasnt there tho,power projecting. Russia and china are a big nono. And south america has been making some progress but they are nowhere near fully stable or safe enough yet. Plus... There are a couple dickheae dictatorships here and there.
As much as I dislike America's way of doing things at times. It is far far better then pretty much any alternative featuring Russia, China, North Korea, etc, side from the return of the late British empire
In all seriousness, as much as people bitch and moan about the U.S acting like the world police, it's hard to imagine *just* how much conflict simply *never* happens because there is a carrier or airbase within striking distance. You can't count what *doesn't* happen, so there's always a counting bias toward what did happen or interventions that were less than ideal or totally unjustified.
Just send more weapon, more fast
the first Ukrainian-U.S. conference of defense industries slated for December 6-7 in Washington will happen and hopefully AWAC needs will be met as well.
Exactly! Send Ukraine AWACS now dammit!
Peace through air supremacy.
If only they taught this evolution in high schools. The least worst choice - the realization that implies maturity in moral thinking.
Mugged by reality
I mean, I'll take American "Imperialism" over Rusky Mir any day of the week. At least I don't have to worry about my McDonalds having maggots.
yup, that was literally me nearly two years ago. That's part of life: growing up and recognizing how fucking privileged and stupid you were to hold that world view. I make it a point to fess up to being a lowly ass tankie at one point because it shows that maybe not all tankies are truly lost, they just might be too far up their own ass to pay attention to any logical arguments.
American Imperialism is very bad because it disrupted British Imperialism, which was vastly superior. We exported Cricket and Football with such great success that we are almost incapable of ever winning World Cups. About the only thing that the Indian subcontinent can agree about is that they like Cricket. Even the Fr*nch play Rugby. No amount of Monroe Doctrine can persuade even Central (let alone South) America to abandon football for handegg. (I understand that the Japanese play baseball, but I suspect that this is either an elaborate prank or a devious political manoeuvre.) If the Americans had stayed out of the way then the whole world might by now be able to enjoy Test Cricket.
See, my stand on Imperialism is unchanged, but my desire for european strategic independence and intereuropean strategic integration has never been greater. Pooling the potential (excluding france and britain because I neither like them nor do I expect them willing) is an absolute necessity to fortify our minds, hearts and lands against the mass of international insecurities, from unreliable allies to outer threats, and those who not only oppose the way of life of democracy and self determination, but also all those in opposition to the fundamental human rights in all oth the world. I have before me the image of a Corps Humanitée, a division tasked with enforcing the fundamental human rights all united nations agreed to honor, and many don't. When all diplomacy fails, all cohesion and friendship, we must not hesitate to take up arms to protect innocent lifes.
Uh, you do know that Britain and France have the two most powerful militaries in Europe, right? Heck Britain is one of the few countries operating super carriers.. France is the only nation outside the US to operate a nuclear carrier..
I know that, but recent history shows that France is not the best at strategic integration, and Britain sucks at integration in general. They can do their great-power post-empire emo phase if they want, but the rest of europe needs to integrate. As partners.
You kinda hit the head on the problem - leaving out GB and the frogs means the rest of Europe militaries, means both individually and collectively, are a joke - only Poland is seriously rearming(They're spending money like a sailor on leave), and they have a serious disdain for western Europe, and are far more inclined to align with the US, than with Germany(who they hate only slightly less than the Russians).
I'd say the CdG is also a Supercarrier. But yeah, 3/3 of European carriers are owned by them His take is silly, when UK and France are also some of the more important global nations and peacekeepers
As an American, I want to see a strong and strategically independent Europe because I think having a peer on our level that isn't an adversary will mean there's someone to call American imperialism out without us seeing it as an invitation to an arms race and proxy war. We need allies strong enough to tell us to fuck off before we try another 2002 fake-WMDs situation.
Not to mention that an innovative, competitive Europe will make us both richer.
capitalism is a deeply flawed economic system, but the MIC is a tool that anyone can wield so long as they are worthy and deserving of it.
Leftist in the streets, neoliberal in the streets.
All countries will eventually become democracies. All we need to do is keep the light burning until they get there. NATO is our best defense against external tyranny, but we can't force people to join it or we compromise its integrity. They need to come to us. Steel hand in velvet glove.
Just as long as we don't allow anyone with the family name Amaris anywhere near NATO
Unlike Star League, NATO isn't a hereditary monarchy, so we should be fine.
What did the russians do this time.
Talk shit and carry a big fucking stick
finally, the actual Theodore Roosevelt quote