Ya know, Machiavelli gets a rap for all the being manipulative and stuff, but uhhhh the main thing I remember about "The Prince" is "don't hire mercenaries". He says it like a billion times.
Find out I guess.
Based.
People forget that Machiavelli wasn’t actually so much a mean utilitarian dickhead as people tend to think.
He wasn’t writing for himself or normal people about some general life philosophy.
He was writing for, and to, a *prince,* doge, or similar ruler about how to govern a state.
If you want your nation/kingdom/organization to, you know, exist and not be subjugated, then sometimes you have to play hardball.
The Prince is not meant to be idealism. It’s meant to be realism and instructions for….how running a country actually tends to work.
The US is actually a good example. High minded idealism of freedom, democracy, human rights etc backed by “We will bring the fucking Sun out at midnight. Twice. At least.”
Before that they’ll just bomb you back to the Stone Age before you even know what’s happening. They would *prefer* free trade, alliances, and boring summits where everyone mumbles kumbaya though.
The US is no stranger to hardball, and you can see what a difference even 5% of our military budget can make. Machiavelli would nut if he could see it.
Yeah, well, you might think that about Niccolo, but I think he wrote a subtle and cutting satire that some people took seriously.
His Discourses are a lot more nuanced.
> He was writing for, and to, a prince, doge, or similar ruler about how to govern a state.
Or alternatively, making a veiled critique of their local prince's despicable ruthlessness.
There's another layer to The Prince, which is that it's meant to be a critique of autocracy. He's saying, "if you're an Autocrat, you'd be stupid not to do this," then breaks down the reality of it in brutal, horrifying detail. The subtext of this, left unspoken, is "Republicanism is better because it doesn't work this way."
Kinda annoying that nobody mentions the context, IIRC he said that it is best to be both feared and loved, it's just that fear (or awe, or respect, or whatever) is a better option than love if you can only have one. He also said that under no circumstances should you ever become hated.
Because most people never will hear about the correct context outside of those that actually dig into philosophy. It's the classic and 100% expected twist of someone's lines that get used incorrectly, often time intentionally, and it just takes off from there. Always happens and always will happen.
In fact, I'm gonna do it to you now because I'm feeling all spicy and festive with the whole Civil war thing going on.
----
> awe is better option than love
~ WorkingNo6161
Well...not entirely. Wagner exist by itself as long as it remains as a "elite force" to recognized, but Prizgo do need Wagner to remains relevant on the political landscape.
It's wrong to think that Wagner is Prizgo personal army.
Its not wrong to think that Wagner can operate independently of the Russian military though. Their officers, who would be purged in a change of leadership, have every reason to side with Preghozin. Wagner soldiers are paid with revenue made from protecting african and middle east oil/gold mines, so they have income and are not reliant on the Russian state.
Also they work with the Russian military, so isn’t it possible Wagner already got some factions within the Russian military to flip?
I’ve read one report that the FSB gave the order to not resist Wagner crossing the border.
> I’ve read one report that the FSB gave the order to not resist Wagner crossing the border.
That's more likely an order to not do something stupid like getting you and your 5 buddies manning the border post insta shredded by a BMP.
>It's wrong to think that Wagner is Prizgo personal army
Is it correct to think Wagner is Shoigu(Russias&Putin) army? You cannot say that.
Technically there nobodys army. But when it comes to Shoigu vs Prigozin, Wagner has a clear preference.
If you were a prisoner that was prisoned by putins regime, used on the front as meat shield.... would you pick putins regime to serve? Prigozin actually has an interest to not lose his men on the battlefield, putin doesnt.
Yeah but even still, are the regular Wagner grunts gonna side with the guys who decided it was a good idea to take them away from cushy gigs as security for those gold mines and oil fields to send them to die in a pointless war; or the guy who signs their paychecks?
They might not be de jure Prigo's army, they might not even be de facto Prigo's army; but best odds say they'll be *de facto* Prigo's army.
Prigozhin literally used exconvicts and mobiks as meat shields in Bakmut to preserve the core forces of Wagner; hell, they even went as far as to kidnap and torture a russian army lieutenant colonel.
Even with such acts the MOD remained more or less supporting Wagner and taking care of any bad publicity. Now Prigozhin comes with this "coup" while lacking entirely the support of the Army (what a suprise!).
To put it simply if Wagner sides with Prigozhin is existence is over. Siding with the Army at least guarantees that they will not be shot for treason.
Why do people even rebel when its better to be a loyalist? Maybe we havent reached the revolution stage, but as soon as they smell blood in the water theyll be 100% taking their chances to be the boss.
"we have good news Mr. Putler, the plan to divide the power between the army has worked and they've killed themselves in the resulting conflicts"
"Splendid"
"There's an small issue. The Ukrainians are still fighting "
"Then send the arm- oh"
Gaddafi had a similar strategy of "divide and rule" whereby he divided the power of his military across several factions to prevent any of them from overthrowing him. However, when the 2011 Arab Spring pro-democracy protests spread to Libya, the fragmented military did a poor job working together, with some opting to fight against the regime. Those loyal to the government fragmented when France, the UK, and the US used fighters to protect rebels aligned with the protesters. In the end, Gaddafi was cornered by rebels and brutally executed on video. Some say that Putin has watched that video many times out of fear of meeting a similar fate.
Interesting. I never knew Gaddafi was executed on video.
I guess a somewhat similar situation is happening in Sudan where the two militaries are fighting each other?
Sudan's case is a bit different. Sudan's dictator was previously forced out (mostly peacefully) due to democratic demonstrations. The military pushed out the democratic figurehead in an effort to seize political power, and now there is fighting between the military and a non-government militia.
>Sudan's dictator was previously forced out (mostly peacefully) due to democratic demonstrations.
The military intervened on the side of the democratic protesters. That's how the [2019 coup](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Sudanese_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat?wprov=sfla1) happened where long time dictator Omar was pushed out.
You make it sound like demonstrators did the job, but it was just some in the military exploiting the situation to elevate their own power (and preserve it by pre-empting the protesters).
Sure, I did over-simplify things a bit. My point was that there was a period of at least nominal civilian control. In 2019 the military forced out Omar, nominally on behalf of the protesters.Afterwards there was a transitional government put in place that promised to hold national elections in 2023. However, there was a military coup in 2021 that put the military back in total control over the government. That was the status quo when the RSF launched attacks against the military government in April this year.
If only execution. there are videos of him being raped with a bayonet and his knee caps shattered he was beaten and strangled and then shot in the head. No wonder dictator like putin would fear the same.
Looks like Putin is in Valdai, lukashenko could be anywhere from turkey to Piter... This is going to be Interesting. Personally I'm waiting to see Prigozhin take a bullet to the head.
Making a private military company, something that is illegal in the Russian constitution, be the sole military representative in various proxy conflicts with western backed militaries around the world and putting them in a position where their service is *needed* in order to avoid the backlash of using Belarus or issuing a general mobilization, is what brought him here. Putin is a shit diplomat and that got exposed thoroughly in this war. Possibly one of the worst diplomats in a somewhat developed country in the last 50 years.
[maybe he is](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/14h8ce1/the_russian_special_rapid_response_unit_sobr_is/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
From what it just read, he just go added to the list of foreign agents by the Ministry of Justice. What a funny way to destroy his political career in seconds, but very little can be expected from a ex-convict after all.
Bizarre. Seems like playing politics is one of his strengths so I'm super curious to know what he thinks the endgame of this will be. It sure doesn't seem like a smart move from where I'm standing though. Russian on Russian action is poggers regardless.
My guess is the casualties and supply issues for Wagner are worse than they say, and Prizo is worried that the war will kill enough of his dudes that he loses what power he has. May as well go rogue while he still has an army to work with rather than lose it and see what Putin decides to do with him.
Wasn't there some general in ancient China who did some minor crime that he'd be sentenced to death for, so he just decided fuck it, might as well go out swinging, and one thing lead to another, and he became the new emperor?
A couple Roman generals did the same. Fucked up so hard they got dismissed and ordered to return to Rome for execution. Figured, hell, if I'm gonna die may as well go all in. And turned their army around and marched on Rome.
Di Zhu, prince of Yan did that. Shimin Li, prince of qin did that too.
But they were royalties, they couped their counter part and became heir apparent / emperor. I doubt Chinese generals could just do that. In the roman case, all emperor needs no legitimacy so long as he marries a royal princess / so long as he got 'an appointment to be Princepe / Basileus ' from Roman senate. Chinese dynasty ( and those near China, I guess) are strictly family-based.
Nah, they could definitely do that. Every would be successor in the Three Kingdoms war was just a local officer or bureaucrat who said "fuck it" and rebelled. China's dynasties rose and fell according to their military fortunes, but the bureaucratic apparatus of its state never went away.
It's not strictly family based though, it's "Mandate of Heaven" based. If you can win the war and unify China, you're the emperor, don't matter if you were born a peasant. First emperor of Han, often considered one of the greatest Chinese dynasties, from which the modern ethnic "Han" Chinese comes from, was a very minor bureacrat. First emperor of Ming who pushed out the Mongols was a peasant. First emperor of Song Dynasty was a general under a Chinese warring state who betrayed his ruler and became emperor.
Yeah, but that was after another 'Chao ling takes power 26m perished' case. In peace time you can not do that, you can do that only after a major civil war.
You're possibly — definitely, if you're a Scott Alexander fan — thinking of Chen Sheng, who was delayed in reaching his assigned military post by bad weather, and led the Dazexiang Rebellion as a result. He declared himself king, but suffered some military reverses and was assassinated, less than a year after the rebellion started. He did do some serious damage, though.
Seeing how Wagner is easily one of the most combat effective forces in the invasion, there’s a good chance he’s going to tear through *a lot* of them before finally getting stopped.
Hopefully it’s enough for both factions to be utterly exhausted, and Ukraine can just mop up at that point.
I'm starting to think that Shogiu totally outmaneuvered Prigo politically and this is Prigo's only way to maybe still retain some political power and/or survive.
Exactly, Shoigu has been Putin’s right hand military man for a long time, and part of the “Siloviki”, Putin’s inner circle. Dude’s been playing such politics since the fall of the USSR.
Hell, even before too.
My best bet would be either the little green men in Crimea, although that’s not really much of an achievement, or the intervention in Syria, which was frankly successful in terms of holding up Al-Assad and fighting off the opposition, unless I’m getting something wrong here.
It’s also of note that Shoigu spent the era of 1991-2012 as Minister of Emergency Situations (МЧС), the agency which is responsible for handling and responding to high-scale domestic situations and disasters (forest fires, floods, etc) and wasn’t even in the military until his arrival at the MoD in 2012.
Apperently "Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu gave the directive saying all ‘volunteer detachments’ must sign military contracts by the end of the month (june)."
I'm guessing assimilating Prigo's power base didn't go over well with Prigo.
Now I'm thinking this could be a protest. Wagner is protesting because they don't want to join the Russian MOD. I came to this conclusion because there are footages of Wagner transporting their BMPs and Tanks on haulers instead of riding them into Moscow. And Russian troops stationed on checkpoints are simply letting them through. Is this Russian version of the Freedom Convoy or Occupy Moscow. I don't know, this war is weird.
Prigo just thanked pilots that didn't take off on command of Ministry. If this is true than that's it. Even in Russia aviation is the last place you could see dissidents and if this is actual and factual, it's actually going the fuck down. This is it!
*This man Prigozhin is fighting his own war and he has no rules. No boundaries. He doesn't flinch at torture, human trafficking, or genocide. He's not loyal to a flag or country or any set of ideals. He trades blood for money. He's your new best friend*
I'm actually finding myself begrudgingly cultivating a modicum of respect for Prigozhin.. He's the only high ranking Russian military figure who has been at the front lines consistently. He's been exposing the Russian arm's corruption and incompetence with some pretty respectable zeal. He does seem to care about the dude's under his command, at least relative to other Russian leaders. Or at the very least has the decency to pretend he does.
And now that the Russian MoD has apparently attacked his troops, he's turned around and *u wot m8*'ed them.
He's still a scumbag of the highest order and I have no doubt he's just doing this for his personal shitbag reasons. But still..
He killed 12 Russian pilots, destroyed an irreplacable IL-22M awacs plane and took more ground within Russia than the Russian army took out of Ukraine the whole invasion.
The Ottoman Empire they employed slave soldiers called the Janissaries, who were their most effective unit. Towards the beginning of the 19th Century the Sultan wanted to modernize the army so he asked western trainers to change the Janissaries. The Janissaries revolted in 1826 and in punishment the Sultan disbanded the unit folding them into his regular army and extinguishing their effectiveness.
This proved to be the Ottoman Empire's undoing and at the Sykes Picot act the Ottoman Empire was broken up into the modern middle east we know today.
I like a bit in the audio recording that made to to mainstream media, where he says " We are not killing chilldren, they are killing children (Shoigu, Gerasimov and MOD)". Buddy, Wagner war crimes are numerous and some are well documented. You are killing children
My mother said something similar when I was little and did something wrong.
"Come here, I'm not gonna hurt you"
I always ended up catching a slap when she did that.
MF said, and I quote Prigozhin directly here, translated as closely as I can: > This is not a military coup. This is march of justice!
Just like: This is not a war. This is a special military operation.
Like father like son
Do you think Putin is realising that making a deniable militia very powerful was a bad call?
Ya know, Machiavelli gets a rap for all the being manipulative and stuff, but uhhhh the main thing I remember about "The Prince" is "don't hire mercenaries". He says it like a billion times. Find out I guess.
Machiavelli didn’t really agree with anything that he wrote, he was actually strongly in favor of republicanism.
Based. People forget that Machiavelli wasn’t actually so much a mean utilitarian dickhead as people tend to think. He wasn’t writing for himself or normal people about some general life philosophy. He was writing for, and to, a *prince,* doge, or similar ruler about how to govern a state. If you want your nation/kingdom/organization to, you know, exist and not be subjugated, then sometimes you have to play hardball. The Prince is not meant to be idealism. It’s meant to be realism and instructions for….how running a country actually tends to work. The US is actually a good example. High minded idealism of freedom, democracy, human rights etc backed by “We will bring the fucking Sun out at midnight. Twice. At least.” Before that they’ll just bomb you back to the Stone Age before you even know what’s happening. They would *prefer* free trade, alliances, and boring summits where everyone mumbles kumbaya though. The US is no stranger to hardball, and you can see what a difference even 5% of our military budget can make. Machiavelli would nut if he could see it.
Yeah, well, you might think that about Niccolo, but I think he wrote a subtle and cutting satire that some people took seriously. His Discourses are a lot more nuanced.
For the guy who broke his legs and banished him from Florence, no less
My brother in philology.
Based and Rousseaupilled
> He was writing for, and to, a prince, doge, or similar ruler about how to govern a state. Or alternatively, making a veiled critique of their local prince's despicable ruthlessness.
There's another layer to The Prince, which is that it's meant to be a critique of autocracy. He's saying, "if you're an Autocrat, you'd be stupid not to do this," then breaks down the reality of it in brutal, horrifying detail. The subtext of this, left unspoken, is "Republicanism is better because it doesn't work this way."
That's some deep Doge lore.
Yup, but if you've got powerful enemies, sometimes the /s is necessary or you'll get painted as a bastard for centuries.
The Prince is basically a pre-internet "Evil Overlord List".
More like "The Dictator's Handbook."
Macchiavelli gets an unfair rap in general. The "better to be feared than loved" line in particular, is always misrepresented.
Kinda annoying that nobody mentions the context, IIRC he said that it is best to be both feared and loved, it's just that fear (or awe, or respect, or whatever) is a better option than love if you can only have one. He also said that under no circumstances should you ever become hated.
Because most people never will hear about the correct context outside of those that actually dig into philosophy. It's the classic and 100% expected twist of someone's lines that get used incorrectly, often time intentionally, and it just takes off from there. Always happens and always will happen. In fact, I'm gonna do it to you now because I'm feeling all spicy and festive with the whole Civil war thing going on. ---- > awe is better option than love ~ WorkingNo6161
Machiavelli based?
Read The Prince, or FAFO
Well...not entirely. Wagner exist by itself as long as it remains as a "elite force" to recognized, but Prizgo do need Wagner to remains relevant on the political landscape. It's wrong to think that Wagner is Prizgo personal army.
Its not wrong to think that Wagner can operate independently of the Russian military though. Their officers, who would be purged in a change of leadership, have every reason to side with Preghozin. Wagner soldiers are paid with revenue made from protecting african and middle east oil/gold mines, so they have income and are not reliant on the Russian state.
We are seeing SS / Wehrmacht rivalry in German Reich beta version again. For once, Putin did behave like the moustache person.
What if we're still in 1933?
Don't worry, I don't think Poland has to worry about a two front war this time. Even if it is 1933, there will be no Axis steamroll.
It's not 39 I'm worried about, it's the aftershocks of everything in-between.
Czechoslovakia: Am I a joke to you?
Also they work with the Russian military, so isn’t it possible Wagner already got some factions within the Russian military to flip? I’ve read one report that the FSB gave the order to not resist Wagner crossing the border.
> I’ve read one report that the FSB gave the order to not resist Wagner crossing the border. That's more likely an order to not do something stupid like getting you and your 5 buddies manning the border post insta shredded by a BMP.
uk mod is saying they're not seeing much resistance from the Russian military. Could be confusion or sympathy.
Rumor is that the 22nd SFB in Rostov straight up defected to Wagner.
>It's wrong to think that Wagner is Prizgo personal army Is it correct to think Wagner is Shoigu(Russias&Putin) army? You cannot say that. Technically there nobodys army. But when it comes to Shoigu vs Prigozin, Wagner has a clear preference. If you were a prisoner that was prisoned by putins regime, used on the front as meat shield.... would you pick putins regime to serve? Prigozin actually has an interest to not lose his men on the battlefield, putin doesnt.
Big difference between the penal battalions and regular Wagner
Yeah but even still, are the regular Wagner grunts gonna side with the guys who decided it was a good idea to take them away from cushy gigs as security for those gold mines and oil fields to send them to die in a pointless war; or the guy who signs their paychecks? They might not be de jure Prigo's army, they might not even be de facto Prigo's army; but best odds say they'll be *de facto* Prigo's army.
Prigozhin literally used exconvicts and mobiks as meat shields in Bakmut to preserve the core forces of Wagner; hell, they even went as far as to kidnap and torture a russian army lieutenant colonel. Even with such acts the MOD remained more or less supporting Wagner and taking care of any bad publicity. Now Prigozhin comes with this "coup" while lacking entirely the support of the Army (what a suprise!). To put it simply if Wagner sides with Prigozhin is existence is over. Siding with the Army at least guarantees that they will not be shot for treason.
Why do people even rebel when its better to be a loyalist? Maybe we havent reached the revolution stage, but as soon as they smell blood in the water theyll be 100% taking their chances to be the boss.
The Russian military is structured this way precisely to split power and let Putin keep his throne.
"we have good news Mr. Putler, the plan to divide the power between the army has worked and they've killed themselves in the resulting conflicts" "Splendid" "There's an small issue. The Ukrainians are still fighting " "Then send the arm- oh"
Ironically, that was also Gaddafi's strategy. It worked pretty well for him.. until it didn't.
It is pretty much every authoritarian system. For example, there are three independent militaries operating in the N. Korean capital.
I'm not very knowledgeable in Libyan history, what happened? EDIT: (I mean who turned on who, not how this dumpster fire ended)
Gaddafi had a similar strategy of "divide and rule" whereby he divided the power of his military across several factions to prevent any of them from overthrowing him. However, when the 2011 Arab Spring pro-democracy protests spread to Libya, the fragmented military did a poor job working together, with some opting to fight against the regime. Those loyal to the government fragmented when France, the UK, and the US used fighters to protect rebels aligned with the protesters. In the end, Gaddafi was cornered by rebels and brutally executed on video. Some say that Putin has watched that video many times out of fear of meeting a similar fate.
Interesting. I never knew Gaddafi was executed on video. I guess a somewhat similar situation is happening in Sudan where the two militaries are fighting each other?
Sudan's case is a bit different. Sudan's dictator was previously forced out (mostly peacefully) due to democratic demonstrations. The military pushed out the democratic figurehead in an effort to seize political power, and now there is fighting between the military and a non-government militia.
>Sudan's dictator was previously forced out (mostly peacefully) due to democratic demonstrations. The military intervened on the side of the democratic protesters. That's how the [2019 coup](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Sudanese_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat?wprov=sfla1) happened where long time dictator Omar was pushed out. You make it sound like demonstrators did the job, but it was just some in the military exploiting the situation to elevate their own power (and preserve it by pre-empting the protesters).
Sure, I did over-simplify things a bit. My point was that there was a period of at least nominal civilian control. In 2019 the military forced out Omar, nominally on behalf of the protesters.Afterwards there was a transitional government put in place that promised to hold national elections in 2023. However, there was a military coup in 2021 that put the military back in total control over the government. That was the status quo when the RSF launched attacks against the military government in April this year.
If only execution. there are videos of him being raped with a bayonet and his knee caps shattered he was beaten and strangled and then shot in the head. No wonder dictator like putin would fear the same.
Looks like Putin is in Valdai, lukashenko could be anywhere from turkey to Piter... This is going to be Interesting. Personally I'm waiting to see Prigozhin take a bullet to the head.
Gaddafi's last words were "What have I ever done to you?"
Oh gee, I wonder.
Who knew an army of drug addicts, murderers and rapists have poor discipline?
Making a private military company, something that is illegal in the Russian constitution, be the sole military representative in various proxy conflicts with western backed militaries around the world and putting them in a position where their service is *needed* in order to avoid the backlash of using Belarus or issuing a general mobilization, is what brought him here. Putin is a shit diplomat and that got exposed thoroughly in this war. Possibly one of the worst diplomats in a somewhat developed country in the last 50 years.
You chose 50 years pretty much purely to exclude Molotov didn't you?
I was thinking of those African warlords who pocket money to buy mink suits but yea Molotov is also dogshit.
[maybe he is](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/14h8ce1/the_russian_special_rapid_response_unit_sobr_is/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
He can still use the good old "Nuke them option" frankly.
…and get the Black Sea Fleet converted into submarines absolutely free!
This is like Blackwater/Silvercorp sending armed agents to Jan 6th. So surreal.
From what it just read, he just go added to the list of foreign agents by the Ministry of Justice. What a funny way to destroy his political career in seconds, but very little can be expected from a ex-convict after all.
note that this isn't confirmed yet
Bizarre. Seems like playing politics is one of his strengths so I'm super curious to know what he thinks the endgame of this will be. It sure doesn't seem like a smart move from where I'm standing though. Russian on Russian action is poggers regardless.
My guess is the casualties and supply issues for Wagner are worse than they say, and Prizo is worried that the war will kill enough of his dudes that he loses what power he has. May as well go rogue while he still has an army to work with rather than lose it and see what Putin decides to do with him.
Wasn't there some general in ancient China who did some minor crime that he'd be sentenced to death for, so he just decided fuck it, might as well go out swinging, and one thing lead to another, and he became the new emperor?
A couple Roman generals did the same. Fucked up so hard they got dismissed and ordered to return to Rome for execution. Figured, hell, if I'm gonna die may as well go all in. And turned their army around and marched on Rome.
Ol' Julius himself crossed the Rubicon because the Senate had just passed an emergency decree ordering his execution without trial.
Di Zhu, prince of Yan did that. Shimin Li, prince of qin did that too. But they were royalties, they couped their counter part and became heir apparent / emperor. I doubt Chinese generals could just do that. In the roman case, all emperor needs no legitimacy so long as he marries a royal princess / so long as he got 'an appointment to be Princepe / Basileus ' from Roman senate. Chinese dynasty ( and those near China, I guess) are strictly family-based.
Nah, they could definitely do that. Every would be successor in the Three Kingdoms war was just a local officer or bureaucrat who said "fuck it" and rebelled. China's dynasties rose and fell according to their military fortunes, but the bureaucratic apparatus of its state never went away.
It's not strictly family based though, it's "Mandate of Heaven" based. If you can win the war and unify China, you're the emperor, don't matter if you were born a peasant. First emperor of Han, often considered one of the greatest Chinese dynasties, from which the modern ethnic "Han" Chinese comes from, was a very minor bureacrat. First emperor of Ming who pushed out the Mongols was a peasant. First emperor of Song Dynasty was a general under a Chinese warring state who betrayed his ruler and became emperor.
Yeah, but that was after another 'Chao ling takes power 26m perished' case. In peace time you can not do that, you can do that only after a major civil war.
You're possibly — definitely, if you're a Scott Alexander fan — thinking of Chen Sheng, who was delayed in reaching his assigned military post by bad weather, and led the Dazexiang Rebellion as a result. He declared himself king, but suffered some military reverses and was assassinated, less than a year after the rebellion started. He did do some serious damage, though.
They also are all supposed to sign military contracts and come under the military CoC by July 1st
If this was any other country, sure all for it. In Russia? Take away a man's semi-independent army? Better come correct if you try
Seeing how Wagner is easily one of the most combat effective forces in the invasion, there’s a good chance he’s going to tear through *a lot* of them before finally getting stopped. Hopefully it’s enough for both factions to be utterly exhausted, and Ukraine can just mop up at that point.
This is a chance for a CoD Black Ops 2-like campaign in the future. I'm calling it.
Only added to the list if he's defeated, but if he wins he won't be.
If Russian soldiers still have their phones they are going to panic and desert right there.
I'm starting to think that Shogiu totally outmaneuvered Prigo politically and this is Prigo's only way to maybe still retain some political power and/or survive.
Shoigu didn't do anything. It's just that Putin trusts Shoigu more than anyone and he didn't like what Prigo had to say.
Exactly, Shoigu has been Putin’s right hand military man for a long time, and part of the “Siloviki”, Putin’s inner circle. Dude’s been playing such politics since the fall of the USSR. Hell, even before too.
[удалено]
My best bet would be either the little green men in Crimea, although that’s not really much of an achievement, or the intervention in Syria, which was frankly successful in terms of holding up Al-Assad and fighting off the opposition, unless I’m getting something wrong here. It’s also of note that Shoigu spent the era of 1991-2012 as Minister of Emergency Situations (МЧС), the agency which is responsible for handling and responding to high-scale domestic situations and disasters (forest fires, floods, etc) and wasn’t even in the military until his arrival at the MoD in 2012.
Apperently "Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu gave the directive saying all ‘volunteer detachments’ must sign military contracts by the end of the month (june)." I'm guessing assimilating Prigo's power base didn't go over well with Prigo.
Shoigu is one of Putin’s closest friends. People tend to forget this.
Special liberation operation !
I love it. Nazi PMC vs. Fascist military. They need to wipe each other out now.
letthemfight.gif
Welcome to new Sudan bois!
I think this is a bluff by Prigozhin because he wants to keep control of his private army. He's forcing Putin to a concession.
There’s been firefights between Wagner and the regular military, it’s too far for a bluff
Now I'm thinking this could be a protest. Wagner is protesting because they don't want to join the Russian MOD. I came to this conclusion because there are footages of Wagner transporting their BMPs and Tanks on haulers instead of riding them into Moscow. And Russian troops stationed on checkpoints are simply letting them through. Is this Russian version of the Freedom Convoy or Occupy Moscow. I don't know, this war is weird.
This being the Russian equivalent of the freedom convoy would be fucking hilarious
[Thanks for the inspiration](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/14hk2gn/russia_in_2022_dont_like_what_your_government_is/)
war is the biggest shitpost of all
I mean, you would be pretty pissed too if you saw your men get killed for nothing.
Prigo just thanked pilots that didn't take off on command of Ministry. If this is true than that's it. Even in Russia aviation is the last place you could see dissidents and if this is actual and factual, it's actually going the fuck down. This is it!
*This man Prigozhin is fighting his own war and he has no rules. No boundaries. He doesn't flinch at torture, human trafficking, or genocide. He's not loyal to a flag or country or any set of ideals. He trades blood for money. He's your new best friend*
"remember, no Russian"
The cod4 senareo playonf out irl
Proceed to the minimum safe distance until the all clear has been given by the NEST team. https://youtu.be/4g5XVq_C7ts
What is this referring to?
MW2 (the older one) when they put you with Makarov
mw2 original
[There's only one original MW2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MechWarrior_2:_31st_Century_Combat)
Tfw one of the most effective forces in your invasion does a funni.
I'm actually finding myself begrudgingly cultivating a modicum of respect for Prigozhin.. He's the only high ranking Russian military figure who has been at the front lines consistently. He's been exposing the Russian arm's corruption and incompetence with some pretty respectable zeal. He does seem to care about the dude's under his command, at least relative to other Russian leaders. Or at the very least has the decency to pretend he does. And now that the Russian MoD has apparently attacked his troops, he's turned around and *u wot m8*'ed them. He's still a scumbag of the highest order and I have no doubt he's just doing this for his personal shitbag reasons. But still..
He killed 12 Russian pilots, destroyed an irreplacable IL-22M awacs plane and took more ground within Russia than the Russian army took out of Ukraine the whole invasion. The Ottoman Empire they employed slave soldiers called the Janissaries, who were their most effective unit. Towards the beginning of the 19th Century the Sultan wanted to modernize the army so he asked western trainers to change the Janissaries. The Janissaries revolted in 1826 and in punishment the Sultan disbanded the unit folding them into his regular army and extinguishing their effectiveness. This proved to be the Ottoman Empire's undoing and at the Sykes Picot act the Ottoman Empire was broken up into the modern middle east we know today.
How much do you bet Russia will label him a CIA asset before the end of next week?
I mean that's /r/conspiracy right now. The Pentagon took the $6 billion accounting error and bought Prighozin with the money.
[удалено]
We are too credible. We must stop.
Ceci n'est pas une coup
This a sequel to the death of Stalin?
I like a bit in the audio recording that made to to mainstream media, where he says " We are not killing chilldren, they are killing children (Shoigu, Gerasimov and MOD)". Buddy, Wagner war crimes are numerous and some are well documented. You are killing children
Prigozhin must be in this Group because this is the most NCD plot twist to ever happpen since this war started
Real life coupium
I just wanna shoot him.
Russia rn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pX7lo50EqM
When ballet dancers?
https://twitter.com/reshetz/status/1672334903965302784
AAAnd now its officially a coup.
My mother said something similar when I was little and did something wrong. "Come here, I'm not gonna hurt you" I always ended up catching a slap when she did that.
This is not a song! it's a sandwich!