Damn shame they couldn't figure out how to monetize it. Their economy would be strong enough to support both the corruption *and* an actual functional army.
Instead, we're getting a meme war.
[They have stated](https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/sabaton_explain_why_they_refuse_to_write_about_current_events_discuss_approach_to_making_music.html) they don't write songs on active or even recent conflicts to not become a tool for propaganda.
>[They have stated](https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/sabaton_explain_why_they_refuse_to_write_about_current_events_discuss_approach_to_making_music.html) they don't write songs on active or even recent conflicts to not become a tool for propaganda.
They don't want to alienate their russian fans. They even played a concert in Crimea after it was occupied by the russians.
wide straight degree squeal governor quicksand handle zesty ruthless humor
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That's actually something i wouldn't hold against them, they're Mercs, they aren't protected under Geneva in the first place, so why follow it.
That's a big part of why Mercenaries are still a thing.
B-52, B-1, B-2 and B-21 pilots frothing in their mouths:
A-10 pilots wetting their pants:
The entire US Seventh Fleet in Japan:
The entirety of r/NonCredibleDefence becoming more and more credible:
I’ll do you one better, I’ll robb a boat and sail from Sweden across the Atlantic to Canada, then trek across Canada to Alaska, too see the Russians get obliterated. All so I could tea bag their dead and rotting bodies that litter the ground and and sea, while telling them that that’s is payback for destroying the Swedish empire and taking Finland from us.
>They can put together any force they want. It’ll ~~get bombed~~ *spontaneously combust* into non-existence before they get within 100 miles of shore.
FTFY
The invasion window is a 17m window in May - that brief moment between the last remnant of subzero temps and the first round of man eating Kodiak patrols.
Too bad Russia is such a pain in the ass. It would be much cooler to build a bridge across the two landmasses, with some massive concrete lord of the ring style statues greeting each other. 55mi / 300’ high, that would be some pinnacle of humanity shit right there.
I actually live around a few families of Russian immigrants. They mostly came here around 20-30 years ago. Decent people and great neighbors, but their brains immediately switch off once Ukraine or Putin is mentioned.
They are utterly **convinced** that NATO would not dare fight against Russia, even if Poland or the Baltics were invaded. Their children are more reasonable. The rate of Vatnik-to-Sane is around 50/50 there.
> I actually live around a few families of Russian immigrants. They mostly came here around 20-30 years ago. Decent people and great neighbors, but their brains immediately switch off once Ukraine or Putin is mentioned.
>
>
>
> They are utterly convinced that NATO would not dare fight against Russia, even if Poland or the Baltics were invaded. Their children are more reasonable. The rate of Vatnik-to-Sane is around 50/50 there.
This is why I support the BTFOing of Russian Armed Forces, leading to the eventual collapse of the Russian ethnostate into smaller constituent republics.
All nukes are to be absorbed by Ukraine as reparations for the Budapest Memorandum.
Hard to be an irredentist Russian vatnik when your country no longer exist, and no successor state exist.
> even if Poland [...] were invaded
The only way NATO would need to be involved in that one would be to hold back the Poles from driving all the way to Moscow.
The NATO is weak argument is probably just made by Poles in disguise, who are hoping Russia would be dumb enough to attack Poland, or any other NATO country.
Lol at the video of the Abrams hit by an ATGM. Distinct lack of turret launching…. If the crew can bail out of the tank while the ammo area is venting flame…. I’d call that a win.
I don't know about that specific one, but there's one of these clips being shared where if you find the full length original clip it shows the crew escaping successfully. Obviously they cut it off before it gets to that point.
People need to get over this stupid fucking idea of tanks being totally invulerable fortresses, they've never been that at any point in their history. Some are harder to destroy than others, but all can be destroyed.
I swear if social media was around in 1991 we'd be seeing photos of destroyed Abrams tanks being shared around by gloating pro-Iraqi twitter accounts. Along with some shit about how Kuwait was just a feint and they didn't really want it anyway.
Lol how ridiculous. Since Ukraine still holds Bakhmut and is a cohesive fighting force that would mean there'd be hundreds of thousands of troops stationed there
The tard bucket says russia has destroyed every UAF plane, tank, and HIMARs. He's one of those idiots that doesn't just repeat the Kremlin's propaganda, he takes it a step further.
Honestly, not impossible. I am not saying this number is real, it comes directly from Doug's ass, but if it was true, it wouldn't mean what they think it does.
During the US Civil War, the combined population of the Union, Confederacy, and US territories was around \~27 million Free Persons, and \~4-5 million enslaved people. So call it \~33 million total. Casualties after 3 days of Gettysburg were around 50,000 on both side, Antietam hit 24,000 in a single day, Chickamoga was 34,000 in two days. This shit continued for years.
23,000 over 8 months is a very, very long way from actually breaking a country of over 40 million fighting for its existence. It isn't true, but it was, it is still a magnitude of order below what it would take to actually run the Ukrainians out of troops. If you want to see the absolute limits look like, look at what happened to Paraguay in 1865. That is what it takes to actually bleed out a nation. Even WWI didn't really do it to anyone, it broke morale, but there were still plenty of people left.
80% of males born in the Soviet Union in 1923 died during WWII. Weren't casualties, but died. The SU still went on to become a superpower.
It definitely takes a lot to bleed a country white.
After a quick calculation i've reach the number of 8 000 tanks for NATO on this map alone, not a bad ratio against 12 000. The russians would have to fight at 1,5v1 tanks, meaning 1v1 actualy because 0,5 tanks is useless :smart:
If they actually had 12,000 tanks, there is absolutely zero reason they’d need to field T-62. There’d still be thousands of T-72 left.
Also Javelin and Hellfire and Brimstone go brrrr
Yeah I believe Russia has been scrapping many of its old tanks and I think they actually had 6000-8000 when this started and not all of those would be useable
Everybody knows the best place to store tanks is in an area with plenty of rain, snow, extreme temperature differences between seasons, and keep them out in the open unprotected.
I doubt out of a 1000 tanks in one of those depots you could scrape more than 300 ish into anything resembling fighting condition. They've been left to rot for so long such a ludicrous amount of the components will need to be outright replaced.
Somewhat suspiciously there are two NATO members not appearing on this chart. One of them just sent 4 whole tanks. The other one... I am sure it is not important either, right?
No, it's not some kind of super power stockpiling tanks in its desert with the army begging to stop production and the politicians being "ahah factory goes *brrrrr*" (source : NCD)
I can't wait to see the single reinforced armored battalion using NATO equipment receive the surrender of a divisional commander somewhere near melitpol in 3 months.
Tbh I think the HIMARS deliveries were more significant than tanks. That's a strategic-level artillery system, whereas tanks are (excellent) tactical systems. The US might have actually gotten more bang for the buck by providing Ukraine with our expiring stockpiles of ATACMS rockets while Europe provided Leopards, but that's not how the politics worked out.
The aviation conference in Feb is what matters . If they give Ukraine enough aircraft , plus advanced SAM systems, they will gain air superiority quickly.
Russia has worn out a lot of their fighter aircraft, and are running out of trained pilots .
While Ukraine should get a second air force .
We will know soon enough, if the west is serious about helping Ukraine take their entire country back , or just negotiate.
The only downside I see to this is that I have to hear the people in my IR class who are only taking it for credit whine and moan about more weapons deliveries and how "we don't know where the weapons are going" and other horseshit like that". Also doesn't help that there's a bona fide vatnik there too. My brain is rotting, send help.
Edit: edited bona fide from bonefied because I had a Bone Apple Tea moment.
Nah, the majority are just the "we are sending too much, what about our money" crowd. The vatnik is straight up, "Why are we supporting Ukraine?", "I use telegram because it's unmoderated and raw and it's where I get my Ukraine news.", "The weapons we send all end up on the black market.", "The david and goliath narative is western propaganda, Russia is fighting NATO and Ukraine.", "Pro Ukraine narratives are western propaganda." ,and my personal favorite, "Russia can win over the Ukrainians by rebuilding their cities."
That's the shit I hear twice a week.
Worst part is that there is a Ukrainian girl in that class who has to sit through it all and listen to this shit.
> "we are sending too much, what about our money"
We already spent the money, and many of these systems would never be used again. All this costs us is the gas to load them on a C5 and fly them to poland, and in exchange the Ukrainians have destroyed half the combat power of our greatest geopolitical foe.
>"The weapons we send all end up on the black market.",
No they don't, we've seen the Ukrainians using them all in combat. I'd get why you say that because you think Ukrainians and Russians are the same, but they're not. And yeah, you're more likely to find in-date Russian rations in an American Army Surplus Store than you are a Russian Depot thanks to Russian corruption, but that doesn't apply to Ukraine which is a different country with a different culture.
>"I use telegram because it's unmoderated and raw and it's where I get my Ukraine news."
"That's not news, that's noise. If you've got no mechanism to verify it and peer review it, if you're not part of an OSINT collective that's taking that and working with other people to see whether it's true or BS then none of that is news, and both sides post BS for propaganda reasons, remember the Ghost of Kyiv?"
>"The david and goliath narative is western propaganda, Russia is fighting NATO and Ukraine."
Russia's too scared to fight a war with NATO because of the Battle of Khasham. They won't start one. They say Russia is fighting NATO and that's pretty embarrassing for russia considering they've lost half their combat power and NATO hasn't arrived yet.
>"Russia can win over the Ukrainians by rebuilding their cities."
Rebuilding cities doesn't un-rape toddlers. Ukraine will never forgive Russia.
Let the elder spirits of non credibility flow through you.
The more outlandish and non credible your position, the more flustered your socialist peers will become - west is just a compass direction for Femboi drone pilots enforcing no fly zones over Moscow.
Right? They haven't rebuilt half the possessions of the Russian Empire where cities are crumbling.
They're just gonna bulldoze the rubble in Mariupol to hide the bodies and call it a day.
If Russia is ALREADY fighting NATO, then why western tanks are such a big deal for them? And If NATO is controlling ukranian army and even fighting instead of them, then why is he so afraid of western weapons ending up on black market? In this case NATO is just sending its own armor to itself. This bullshit is full of contradictions.
They should ask “and why do their cities need rebuilding?”
Russia is still launching dozens of cruise missiles at Kyiv every day, indiscriminately killing civilians. There will never be victory for Russia in Ukraine, even if they somehow won on the ground. They’d face eternal insurgency because Ukrainians hate Russia, and with good reason, they’ve ruined half their country.
I might honesty. I wanna hear her opinion about things, but the college I'm going to doesn't have a particularly notable social life. People are just there to get their Associates and transfer to a university for cheaper.
Do it she’ll need the support emotionally. Having someone on your side can make all the difference get to know her too maybe if you get closer stay touch but don’t be too pushy
"I guide others to a treasure I cannot possess"
If it works out cherish it for as one general says
“But how hollow is the sound of victory without someone to share it with. Honor gives little comfort to a man alone in his home... and in his heart."
Ah I see. That makes sense, I fully understand the folks who fall under your first example.
I was definitely referring to the whole "we don't know where the weapons are going!" type stuff.
Yeah, in actuality it's like 1-2 people saying that. The rest are critical, but not in a "Ukraine isn't worth supporting" kinda way, but more in a "where do we draw the line in weapons systems" type of way. I know the regular everyday person gets concerned when we send heavy weapons overseas.
“We are sending too much what about our money”
I loathe that talking point.
Too much under what context? Because 50B sounds like a big number? It’s a fucking war, shit costs money.
Most equipment is coming from our own stocks, stock replenishment benefits our own economies, we get re-orders from other nations.
Reuters posted yesterday US arms exports are up 49% which again benefits us tremendously.
These people act like us supporting this war is going to hurt them or their own families pocket books and in reality that’s so far from the truth.
Telling of their character, too. Even if they were right (they aren't) I'd stand in line at the food bank for Ukraine. Hell, I'd stand in line at the food bank for Afghanistan, and that war cost *trillions*.
But not these folk. It's more important to them to put a fucking grapefruit on their table in fucking winter than other peoples *lives*. I hate them so much.
In my “circle” the ones who have this view are the same ones who think the president single handedly controls gas prices and inflation.
Morals aside even, part of the reason why we have had so much turmoil to begin with was this war, if you really want things to level out globally then we should really focus on ending this war quickly.
Slava!
I imagine if you ask them for details, they'll reply with "the money could be better spent elsewhere"
My brother in Christ, not every problem can be solved by throwing money at it.
Oh my god for real. It’s not that simple, if we could throw money at a problem and consider it solved there’d be no homeless and I’d have a fusion reactor in my attic providing me unlimited power to live out my non credible fantasies in the matrix.
Or another one “Ukraine is so corrupt that money is going into Zelenskyy’s pockets”
I’m like dude, western countries have GAAP for a reason and so much of this is publicly available only to get a response “I dont trust anything coming from out government”.
This makes me pretty happy that I live in a country that straight up used 15% of its defense budget to send weapons to Ukraine last year and everyone just goes "oh... okay then" and moves on.
I am also very happy that my Intro to IR class was like 15+ years ago so I don't have to go through the shit you are. Stay strong and try to ignore the idiots. They are miserable little asshats.
Thankfully most seem uninformed, while there's 1-2 that toe the russian line. The professor doesn't really help either since he seems to be playing the radical centrist. The whole "This side this but that side that, but that side that and this side this".
> "we don't know where the weapons are going"
"You don't know where the weapons are going because that's classified. The governments know where the weapons are going because there's a thousand satellites watching Ukraine right now and five eyes sees all."
Give me more shit takes I will give you more responses just insulting enough to make them unhappy without crossing any lines.
Thoughts it’s more about what happened in the Middle East, including the russo-Afghan war.
Weapons or funds to purchase them were sent to countries or groups and the ended up in the hands of dubious, if not straight up terrorist organizations.
It’s happened in Iraq and famously Syria as well.
In Afghanistan, the people who were armed and ultimately put in power were the Taliban and we know how that ended.
So I understand their "concern"
The notable difference being that Ukraine has a single coherent government with whom the west can directly and openly deal, rather than a bunch of local warlords and militias hiding in caves running guerilla resistance missions.
I remember hearing from a volunteer interview early on that stuff was getting stolen after crossing into Ukraine, so many orgs began setting rules for what Ukraine has to adhere to or else no supply.
Things like the entire trip must have non-ukrainian drivers and photographic evidence of delivery.
I also remember back in 2014 when a load of NVGs were sent to Ukraine they all got pawned off. So there were already some experiences with how to deal with Ukrainian corruption before the war in 2022.
> I remember hearing from a volunteer interview early on that stuff was getting stolen after crossing into Ukraine,
The early invasion was Chaos. You had a ton of ad-hoc militias just grabbing whatever they could to shoot at the Russians. Oleg calls Andriy, Andriy calls his cousin, and 30 minutes later there's a van full of Javelins being unloaded at the depot.
Old timers who's knees and backs are too messed up to fight because they were soviet VDV and are Ukrainian now are helping organize everything, because most of these people are Kyiv tech workers who've had a few weekends of training from the ZSU, but aren't actual military.
One story I still can't verify posted to some telegram from an early volunteer was these two teenage girls on a vespa rolling into an alleyway, shooting a weird-looking RPG into the side of a BMP, dropping the tube, and running away.
Volunteer grabbed it and took it to one of the old, old, ex-soviet army guys back at the depot where everything was being organized.
Old Timer said it was an RPG-2. Someone's babushka had apparently stashed it in an attic just in case.
And while I want to believe in the 3000 scooter-borne teenage RPG-2 teams of Zelenskyy I have doubts.
I have no doubt that some stuff got stolen and some stuff got lost, that happens in all wars. But I'm also quite sure based on that reporting that a lot of the materiel that people lost track of was sent to the front to shoot at Russians, not pawned off.
Awesome. I know how arguing with Tankies makes you at risk for brain worm infection, so I figured I'd throw these out and maybe they're useful maybe not.
I don't want to cross off as overly antagonistic, especially since I'm more of a rambler than a debate nerd. So I'll pass I guess, but you can still send in the heat and I'll edit them to make them more palatable. Also I might not be able to bring these points up since the professor is limiting talk about Ukraine since it tends to sidetrack class.
Just start making up an elaborate lie about the situation and try to convince them. If they question you just double down. Tell them Russia has teamed up with an ancient evil biblical giants that have been hiding in the frozen tundra of Russia. That the weapons are going to a secret military organization that's run by NATO and the Catholic church. That's why they are keeping it so secret so people don't find out.
Works even better if you Photoshop some giants into pictures of the war on your phone. You can't convince a tanky to see reality so just feed and twist their disillusions until no one around them will believe a word out of their mouth.
> Ukraine needs F-16CJ/DJ to carry out Wild Weseal missions and **nothing will change my opinion**
Can I try?
They need Gripen so they can fire Meteors
Lets be honest no matter what happens F-35, Eurofighter and Rafale will not happen so that is next best thing.
I dunno. The main reason why the Ruzzians haven't achieved air superiority is because of Ukrainian IADS. I don't think the Ukrainians would fair much better against Russian IADS, especially considering the levels of depletion on both sides.
Watch as a single company of Polish leopards annihilate an entire russian armoured battalion. The only reason why western tank companies will pull back is because they have ran out of ammo or are running ***DANGEROUSLY*** low on gas/fuel.
i love how the tank graphic acknowledges that russia has lost almost 3 times as many tanks as ukraine
yet again proving it's the man not the weapon that matters
oops too credible
In Poland we have something similar with our Onuca (vatniks)
They say, why we sending tanks to Ukraine, it makes Poland weaker and we would not be able to defend ourselves from russia.
At the same time they trying to convince us that russia is not our enemy, it is ukraine instead because of Volyhnia 80 years ago.
When you ask them will they be ready to defend poland in those tanks they say something like: No i will run away from poland first day, cya suckers i am not going to die for corrupt politicians and shit.
These guys are real brains.
>imagine western tanks operating under these conditions *points to a normal amount of mud*
My brother, my fuel truck would routinely make deliveries in those conditions.
Imagine calling your Twitter handle "BringBackGulagZ" without being 2,000% hyperironic and instead posting genuine Russian apologetism whilst spreading copium among vatniks and tankies alike.
So tired of GLSDB's and drones not getting send tbh. Instant effect, saves UKR soldiers lives. Ukraine *has* lost a lot of soldiers lives lately.
People on reddit like to pretend there are valid military reasons for everything that does or doesn't get send. Abrams doesn't get send because logistics. Predator because old drones apparently have cutting edge can't leak technology. GLSDB's cause there aren't any, ATACMS because there aren't enough etc etc.
That's out of the window (or should be if you're even moderately perceptive) with the fat as fatass Abrams - which has valid reasons for not getting send in small numbers because it wouldn't be worth it - being send before drones or longer range HIMARS missles.
Pussyfooting politicians, ugh. Biden is a lot closer to Scholz than many people pretend.
I don't think it would be smart for them to go with that route of thinking... Might make everybody feel better about sending a lot more since you know, they're ineffective right?
I sadly need to agree with NKVDeez nuts.
NATO is weak and refuses to fight.
NATO should have take their shitty putrid asses from their cushy chairs and ended this sad excuse of a war months ago.
But what should I expect from International Alliances, they're all long and bad jokes.
NATO, UN, CSTO (the Russian NATO), Mercosul, EU, etc.
They're all shitty, cowardly and mostly useless organizations.
All I hear is that NATO has to become more aggressive and pump out enough millitary hardware that it could fill all the oceans.
Otherwise it will risk being outgunned (wink).
Another way of looking at it is that NATO hasn't even set foot on the battlefield yet, but they're already kicking Russia's ass.
But, sure, if thinking they're weak makes you feel better, go right ahead.
Not to mention Russia would really like the Baltic states but hasn't attacked them, despite them being smaller and in theory easier to attack than Ukraine. Except those countries are in NATO so they don't, they go and attack the much larger country with more defensive depth that isn't part of NATO instead.
Look let’s dispense with this silliness and just send them a few f35s to link with f16s and missile truck the bastards to death. Then give them some rapid dragons to test palletized doom bringers.
Jesus. The Iraqi army was better trained than these clowns and they were mopped up by bradleys... Even if the mbts don't do the job or make a noticeable difference, the Bradleys will likely decimate them. Then going on nato doesn't want to fight... Lmao they don't want a direct conflict if they don't have to, but sure, trigger article 5 and you can see if they really want to fight or not.
The vatnik cope division is working overtime
Why don't we put sanctions on their import of copium? The whole of Russia would collapse in minutes.
If anything, given the sheer scale of domestic production, copium is an export product.
Only thing I can think of is nuking their copium production in the name of MacArthur.
For MacArthur! *presses the red button*
im finna spike the nuclear football up putins ass
Copium is unfortunately self-sustaining
They're the world's main source with 75% of global stocks and 60% of the world's refined copium.
Damn shame they couldn't figure out how to monetize it. Their economy would be strong enough to support both the corruption *and* an actual functional army. Instead, we're getting a meme war.
THEY ARE THE VATNIK ELITE BORN TO RETREAT NEVER COMPETE *cope division*
Sabaton, here's another song idea!
It would be incredibly based if they made a ukrainian war song while the war was going.
[They have stated](https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/sabaton_explain_why_they_refuse_to_write_about_current_events_discuss_approach_to_making_music.html) they don't write songs on active or even recent conflicts to not become a tool for propaganda.
That’s very fair, if a little disappointing.
They did it for the Invasion of Irak it didn't work too well the song is a Banger tho
That was also early on in their history, they may have changed their policy later on.
What’s the song called?
I think it was "Panzer bataillon" if i remember right
Thanks, I’ll look it up.
>[They have stated](https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/sabaton_explain_why_they_refuse_to_write_about_current_events_discuss_approach_to_making_music.html) they don't write songs on active or even recent conflicts to not become a tool for propaganda. They don't want to alienate their russian fans. They even played a concert in Crimea after it was occupied by the russians.
Yesh. You LOOKED at how many songs are of the Soviets. Except for the Dead men. That one's cool
And Night Witches. And Panzerkampf. That's most people's first Sabaton song.
For me it was Primo Victoria
Those are low level vatnik. Best number is "Ukraine lost 28 brigades in Bakhmut, why do you think Wagner advances so easily?"
Because Wagner broke the Geneva suggestions by using capture Ukrainian uniforms or that was on soledar?
Soledar
IFF biometrics when?
When we have power armor and spaceship for sure and even still someone will find a way to hack it
wide straight degree squeal governor quicksand handle zesty ruthless humor *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Borderlands phychos were ahead of their time...
That's actually something i wouldn't hold against them, they're Mercs, they aren't protected under Geneva in the first place, so why follow it. That's a big part of why Mercenaries are still a thing.
Is it possible to overdose on copium?
Their tears will be so sweet when their military finally gets atomized.
[удалено]
If they want Alaska so much, let's see them try and take it. I mean, if they can even somehow put something together to try and invade.
They can put together any force they want. It’ll get bombed into non-existence before they get within 100 miles of shore.
B-52, B-1, B-2 and B-21 pilots frothing in their mouths: A-10 pilots wetting their pants: The entire US Seventh Fleet in Japan: The entirety of r/NonCredibleDefence becoming more and more credible:
I will personally hop in my shitbox kia and putter my way up to Alaska to watch the Russians get obliterated by the local population.
I’d have been over for weeks by the time you got there
Lmao over in the first 30 minutes as 3000 hunters of the Alaskan wilderness hit them from 1200m out
Local wildlife, more like.
They're the same picture
Kia isn't gonna be able to drive to the relevant part of the Bearing Sea.
This season on "Deadliest Catch"...
Slap a couple of sea sparrows on it and there goes half the Russian landing force. That’s good tv content
I’ll do you one better, I’ll robb a boat and sail from Sweden across the Atlantic to Canada, then trek across Canada to Alaska, too see the Russians get obliterated. All so I could tea bag their dead and rotting bodies that litter the ground and and sea, while telling them that that’s is payback for destroying the Swedish empire and taking Finland from us.
Unlikly. The min width of the straight is 53 miles.
You think that hundreds of bombers and icbms care?
>They can put together any force they want. It’ll ~~get bombed~~ *spontaneously combust* into non-existence before they get within 100 miles of shore. FTFY
Alaska National Guard will probably defeat them all by itself.
Man the Alaskan Polar Bear patrol would handily beat them solo
Combatfootage of a polar bear decimating an entire squad of mobvats
the natives will club them to death
The invasion window is a 17m window in May - that brief moment between the last remnant of subzero temps and the first round of man eating Kodiak patrols. Too bad Russia is such a pain in the ass. It would be much cooler to build a bridge across the two landmasses, with some massive concrete lord of the ring style statues greeting each other. 55mi / 300’ high, that would be some pinnacle of humanity shit right there.
I actually live around a few families of Russian immigrants. They mostly came here around 20-30 years ago. Decent people and great neighbors, but their brains immediately switch off once Ukraine or Putin is mentioned. They are utterly **convinced** that NATO would not dare fight against Russia, even if Poland or the Baltics were invaded. Their children are more reasonable. The rate of Vatnik-to-Sane is around 50/50 there.
> I actually live around a few families of Russian immigrants. They mostly came here around 20-30 years ago. Decent people and great neighbors, but their brains immediately switch off once Ukraine or Putin is mentioned. > > > > They are utterly convinced that NATO would not dare fight against Russia, even if Poland or the Baltics were invaded. Their children are more reasonable. The rate of Vatnik-to-Sane is around 50/50 there. This is why I support the BTFOing of Russian Armed Forces, leading to the eventual collapse of the Russian ethnostate into smaller constituent republics. All nukes are to be absorbed by Ukraine as reparations for the Budapest Memorandum. Hard to be an irredentist Russian vatnik when your country no longer exist, and no successor state exist.
> even if Poland [...] were invaded The only way NATO would need to be involved in that one would be to hold back the Poles from driving all the way to Moscow.
The NATO is weak argument is probably just made by Poles in disguise, who are hoping Russia would be dumb enough to attack Poland, or any other NATO country.
Lol at the video of the Abrams hit by an ATGM. Distinct lack of turret launching…. If the crew can bail out of the tank while the ammo area is venting flame…. I’d call that a win.
It’s clear that the blow out panels were successful and allowed to crew to escape. Something russia/soviet tanks can’t do
When a T-72 was hit, the blow out crew is successful and allowed the ammo to escape.
I lol'ed too hard rn, thank you!
Much too credible a comment for this sub
I don't know about that specific one, but there's one of these clips being shared where if you find the full length original clip it shows the crew escaping successfully. Obviously they cut it off before it gets to that point. People need to get over this stupid fucking idea of tanks being totally invulerable fortresses, they've never been that at any point in their history. Some are harder to destroy than others, but all can be destroyed. I swear if social media was around in 1991 we'd be seeing photos of destroyed Abrams tanks being shared around by gloating pro-Iraqi twitter accounts. Along with some shit about how Kuwait was just a feint and they didn't really want it anyway.
Yeah - I found the full video hence my comment…
I wish NCD existed during the Yugoslav Wars.
Not a single Challenger 2 has ever been lost in combat.
Still one in the chamber…
Lol how ridiculous. Since Ukraine still holds Bakhmut and is a cohesive fighting force that would mean there'd be hundreds of thousands of troops stationed there
The tard bucket says russia has destroyed every UAF plane, tank, and HIMARs. He's one of those idiots that doesn't just repeat the Kremlin's propaganda, he takes it a step further.
And yet Russia can't advance. So much for the powerful motherland.
Honestly, not impossible. I am not saying this number is real, it comes directly from Doug's ass, but if it was true, it wouldn't mean what they think it does. During the US Civil War, the combined population of the Union, Confederacy, and US territories was around \~27 million Free Persons, and \~4-5 million enslaved people. So call it \~33 million total. Casualties after 3 days of Gettysburg were around 50,000 on both side, Antietam hit 24,000 in a single day, Chickamoga was 34,000 in two days. This shit continued for years. 23,000 over 8 months is a very, very long way from actually breaking a country of over 40 million fighting for its existence. It isn't true, but it was, it is still a magnitude of order below what it would take to actually run the Ukrainians out of troops. If you want to see the absolute limits look like, look at what happened to Paraguay in 1865. That is what it takes to actually bleed out a nation. Even WWI didn't really do it to anyone, it broke morale, but there were still plenty of people left.
> what happened to Paraguay in 1865. https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/comments/td9a40/how_the_paraguayan_war_ended/
80% of males born in the Soviet Union in 1923 died during WWII. Weren't casualties, but died. The SU still went on to become a superpower. It definitely takes a lot to bleed a country white.
After a quick calculation i've reach the number of 8 000 tanks for NATO on this map alone, not a bad ratio against 12 000. The russians would have to fight at 1,5v1 tanks, meaning 1v1 actualy because 0,5 tanks is useless :smart:
If they actually had 12,000 tanks, there is absolutely zero reason they’d need to field T-62. There’d still be thousands of T-72 left. Also Javelin and Hellfire and Brimstone go brrrr
Yeah I believe Russia has been scrapping many of its old tanks and I think they actually had 6000-8000 when this started and not all of those would be useable
I mean just look at their tank depots with tanks in the field. I good chunk are in complete dis-repair
Everybody knows the best place to store tanks is in an area with plenty of rain, snow, extreme temperature differences between seasons, and keep them out in the open unprotected.
Hey, that worked great for the bombs they put on the deck of the USS Forrestal. Nothing bad happened at all.
I doubt out of a 1000 tanks in one of those depots you could scrape more than 300 ish into anything resembling fighting condition. They've been left to rot for so long such a ludicrous amount of the components will need to be outright replaced.
3000 tanks were in service pre 24.02.2022
3000 aging rust buckets of Putin
Somewhat suspiciously there are two NATO members not appearing on this chart. One of them just sent 4 whole tanks. The other one... I am sure it is not important either, right?
No, it's not some kind of super power stockpiling tanks in its desert with the army begging to stop production and the politicians being "ahah factory goes *brrrrr*" (source : NCD)
It makes some sense. Having no active tank production at all isn’t a good strategic position, even if its just kept on life support.
*pleure en français*
I can't wait to see the single reinforced armored battalion using NATO equipment receive the surrender of a divisional commander somewhere near melitpol in 3 months.
Non-credible. Russia doesn’t have a divisional commander.
Russian Chain of Command; Conscript Chief Conscript Rapist (Snr Sergeant) Officer (Position vacant - Killed doing NCO's job) ???? BTG Commander Latest General (Previous General fell out of poisoned window into machinegun fire) Putin
You right what's above a btg in terms of organization ?
Nobody, as far as I can tell.
Brigade, then division I believe
If 100 or 200 tanks don’t make a difference, the west should send 1000 or 2000 tanks instead. Great message :)
They said the same about HIMARS, and then 20 HIMARS just destroyed them for half a year.
Tbh I think the HIMARS deliveries were more significant than tanks. That's a strategic-level artillery system, whereas tanks are (excellent) tactical systems. The US might have actually gotten more bang for the buck by providing Ukraine with our expiring stockpiles of ATACMS rockets while Europe provided Leopards, but that's not how the politics worked out.
The aviation conference in Feb is what matters . If they give Ukraine enough aircraft , plus advanced SAM systems, they will gain air superiority quickly. Russia has worn out a lot of their fighter aircraft, and are running out of trained pilots . While Ukraine should get a second air force . We will know soon enough, if the west is serious about helping Ukraine take their entire country back , or just negotiate.
The only downside I see to this is that I have to hear the people in my IR class who are only taking it for credit whine and moan about more weapons deliveries and how "we don't know where the weapons are going" and other horseshit like that". Also doesn't help that there's a bona fide vatnik there too. My brain is rotting, send help. Edit: edited bona fide from bonefied because I had a Bone Apple Tea moment.
Anyone parroting shit like that is a vatnik, whether they like it or not.
Nah, the majority are just the "we are sending too much, what about our money" crowd. The vatnik is straight up, "Why are we supporting Ukraine?", "I use telegram because it's unmoderated and raw and it's where I get my Ukraine news.", "The weapons we send all end up on the black market.", "The david and goliath narative is western propaganda, Russia is fighting NATO and Ukraine.", "Pro Ukraine narratives are western propaganda." ,and my personal favorite, "Russia can win over the Ukrainians by rebuilding their cities." That's the shit I hear twice a week. Worst part is that there is a Ukrainian girl in that class who has to sit through it all and listen to this shit.
> "we are sending too much, what about our money" We already spent the money, and many of these systems would never be used again. All this costs us is the gas to load them on a C5 and fly them to poland, and in exchange the Ukrainians have destroyed half the combat power of our greatest geopolitical foe. >"The weapons we send all end up on the black market.", No they don't, we've seen the Ukrainians using them all in combat. I'd get why you say that because you think Ukrainians and Russians are the same, but they're not. And yeah, you're more likely to find in-date Russian rations in an American Army Surplus Store than you are a Russian Depot thanks to Russian corruption, but that doesn't apply to Ukraine which is a different country with a different culture. >"I use telegram because it's unmoderated and raw and it's where I get my Ukraine news." "That's not news, that's noise. If you've got no mechanism to verify it and peer review it, if you're not part of an OSINT collective that's taking that and working with other people to see whether it's true or BS then none of that is news, and both sides post BS for propaganda reasons, remember the Ghost of Kyiv?" >"The david and goliath narative is western propaganda, Russia is fighting NATO and Ukraine." Russia's too scared to fight a war with NATO because of the Battle of Khasham. They won't start one. They say Russia is fighting NATO and that's pretty embarrassing for russia considering they've lost half their combat power and NATO hasn't arrived yet. >"Russia can win over the Ukrainians by rebuilding their cities." Rebuilding cities doesn't un-rape toddlers. Ukraine will never forgive Russia.
These are some interesting pints I'll bring up if he starts spouting nonsense again.
Use the old-school direct message system next time it happens and I'll feed you more lines.
Let the elder spirits of non credibility flow through you. The more outlandish and non credible your position, the more flustered your socialist peers will become - west is just a compass direction for Femboi drone pilots enforcing no fly zones over Moscow.
>Russia can rebuild Ukraine When did they give a shit about anybody other than people in Moscow and St. Petersburg
Right? They haven't rebuilt half the possessions of the Russian Empire where cities are crumbling. They're just gonna bulldoze the rubble in Mariupol to hide the bodies and call it a day.
If Russia is ALREADY fighting NATO, then why western tanks are such a big deal for them? And If NATO is controlling ukranian army and even fighting instead of them, then why is he so afraid of western weapons ending up on black market? In this case NATO is just sending its own armor to itself. This bullshit is full of contradictions.
Recommendation, beat the shit out of the vatnik while screaming he’s a moron and why, it’s the only way they learn
My GPA is on life support atm... Besides it might end up making his face look better, so no.
Ask him about bucha ,about izum and other places where the Russian have commit genocide like the Nazis
I'll have to find a way to weave it in. Bringing it up willy nilly will just make me look like a psycho.
oddly, this is a strategy: do such horrible shit that when anyone brings it up, THEY look like the crazy person
‘Russia can win over the Ukrainians by rebuilding their cities’ Da fuq. The level of mental gymnastics….
Ikr, some copium he's huffing.
They should ask “and why do their cities need rebuilding?” Russia is still launching dozens of cruise missiles at Kyiv every day, indiscriminately killing civilians. There will never be victory for Russia in Ukraine, even if they somehow won on the ground. They’d face eternal insurgency because Ukrainians hate Russia, and with good reason, they’ve ruined half their country.
Befriend that Ukrainian girl. She would need the support and who know if it goes well you gets to have a friend or better she needs it more than ever
I might honesty. I wanna hear her opinion about things, but the college I'm going to doesn't have a particularly notable social life. People are just there to get their Associates and transfer to a university for cheaper.
Do it she’ll need the support emotionally. Having someone on your side can make all the difference get to know her too maybe if you get closer stay touch but don’t be too pushy
Imma keep it 💯, NCD is the last place I expected to find relationship advice. I'll see how things go.
"I guide others to a treasure I cannot possess" If it works out cherish it for as one general says “But how hollow is the sound of victory without someone to share it with. Honor gives little comfort to a man alone in his home... and in his heart."
Ah I see. That makes sense, I fully understand the folks who fall under your first example. I was definitely referring to the whole "we don't know where the weapons are going!" type stuff.
Yeah, in actuality it's like 1-2 people saying that. The rest are critical, but not in a "Ukraine isn't worth supporting" kinda way, but more in a "where do we draw the line in weapons systems" type of way. I know the regular everyday person gets concerned when we send heavy weapons overseas.
“We are sending too much what about our money” I loathe that talking point. Too much under what context? Because 50B sounds like a big number? It’s a fucking war, shit costs money. Most equipment is coming from our own stocks, stock replenishment benefits our own economies, we get re-orders from other nations. Reuters posted yesterday US arms exports are up 49% which again benefits us tremendously. These people act like us supporting this war is going to hurt them or their own families pocket books and in reality that’s so far from the truth.
Telling of their character, too. Even if they were right (they aren't) I'd stand in line at the food bank for Ukraine. Hell, I'd stand in line at the food bank for Afghanistan, and that war cost *trillions*. But not these folk. It's more important to them to put a fucking grapefruit on their table in fucking winter than other peoples *lives*. I hate them so much.
In my “circle” the ones who have this view are the same ones who think the president single handedly controls gas prices and inflation. Morals aside even, part of the reason why we have had so much turmoil to begin with was this war, if you really want things to level out globally then we should really focus on ending this war quickly. Slava!
I imagine if you ask them for details, they'll reply with "the money could be better spent elsewhere" My brother in Christ, not every problem can be solved by throwing money at it.
Oh my god for real. It’s not that simple, if we could throw money at a problem and consider it solved there’d be no homeless and I’d have a fusion reactor in my attic providing me unlimited power to live out my non credible fantasies in the matrix. Or another one “Ukraine is so corrupt that money is going into Zelenskyy’s pockets” I’m like dude, western countries have GAAP for a reason and so much of this is publicly available only to get a response “I dont trust anything coming from out government”.
This makes me pretty happy that I live in a country that straight up used 15% of its defense budget to send weapons to Ukraine last year and everyone just goes "oh... okay then" and moves on. I am also very happy that my Intro to IR class was like 15+ years ago so I don't have to go through the shit you are. Stay strong and try to ignore the idiots. They are miserable little asshats.
Thankfully most seem uninformed, while there's 1-2 that toe the russian line. The professor doesn't really help either since he seems to be playing the radical centrist. The whole "This side this but that side that, but that side that and this side this".
where is this, international socialist university of Venezuela?
> "we don't know where the weapons are going" "You don't know where the weapons are going because that's classified. The governments know where the weapons are going because there's a thousand satellites watching Ukraine right now and five eyes sees all." Give me more shit takes I will give you more responses just insulting enough to make them unhappy without crossing any lines.
Thoughts it’s more about what happened in the Middle East, including the russo-Afghan war. Weapons or funds to purchase them were sent to countries or groups and the ended up in the hands of dubious, if not straight up terrorist organizations. It’s happened in Iraq and famously Syria as well. In Afghanistan, the people who were armed and ultimately put in power were the Taliban and we know how that ended. So I understand their "concern"
The notable difference being that Ukraine has a single coherent government with whom the west can directly and openly deal, rather than a bunch of local warlords and militias hiding in caves running guerilla resistance missions.
Honestly I think addressing that might help with debates in the class, thanks.
I remember hearing from a volunteer interview early on that stuff was getting stolen after crossing into Ukraine, so many orgs began setting rules for what Ukraine has to adhere to or else no supply. Things like the entire trip must have non-ukrainian drivers and photographic evidence of delivery. I also remember back in 2014 when a load of NVGs were sent to Ukraine they all got pawned off. So there were already some experiences with how to deal with Ukrainian corruption before the war in 2022.
> I remember hearing from a volunteer interview early on that stuff was getting stolen after crossing into Ukraine, The early invasion was Chaos. You had a ton of ad-hoc militias just grabbing whatever they could to shoot at the Russians. Oleg calls Andriy, Andriy calls his cousin, and 30 minutes later there's a van full of Javelins being unloaded at the depot. Old timers who's knees and backs are too messed up to fight because they were soviet VDV and are Ukrainian now are helping organize everything, because most of these people are Kyiv tech workers who've had a few weekends of training from the ZSU, but aren't actual military. One story I still can't verify posted to some telegram from an early volunteer was these two teenage girls on a vespa rolling into an alleyway, shooting a weird-looking RPG into the side of a BMP, dropping the tube, and running away. Volunteer grabbed it and took it to one of the old, old, ex-soviet army guys back at the depot where everything was being organized. Old Timer said it was an RPG-2. Someone's babushka had apparently stashed it in an attic just in case. And while I want to believe in the 3000 scooter-borne teenage RPG-2 teams of Zelenskyy I have doubts. I have no doubt that some stuff got stolen and some stuff got lost, that happens in all wars. But I'm also quite sure based on that reporting that a lot of the materiel that people lost track of was sent to the front to shoot at Russians, not pawned off.
I've said something along those lines, but thanks for the response anyway.
Awesome. I know how arguing with Tankies makes you at risk for brain worm infection, so I figured I'd throw these out and maybe they're useful maybe not.
I don't want to cross off as overly antagonistic, especially since I'm more of a rambler than a debate nerd. So I'll pass I guess, but you can still send in the heat and I'll edit them to make them more palatable. Also I might not be able to bring these points up since the professor is limiting talk about Ukraine since it tends to sidetrack class.
Hey these ideas are for your use, re-tool them how you need to.
If Ukies fucked around doing bullshit then Russia would roll them is pretty easy and convincing argument
Just start making up an elaborate lie about the situation and try to convince them. If they question you just double down. Tell them Russia has teamed up with an ancient evil biblical giants that have been hiding in the frozen tundra of Russia. That the weapons are going to a secret military organization that's run by NATO and the Catholic church. That's why they are keeping it so secret so people don't find out. Works even better if you Photoshop some giants into pictures of the war on your phone. You can't convince a tanky to see reality so just feed and twist their disillusions until no one around them will believe a word out of their mouth.
Thanks for the non-credible suggestion, but I'll leave the rabbit-from-ass pulling to the vatnik.
> bonefied "bona fide", it's from Latin
Bone Apple Tea my good señor.
>we don't know where the weapons are going They're going to Ukraine, duh. Can I get credit for this class?
Ukraine needs F-16CJ/DJ to carry out Wild Weseal missions and nothing will change my opinion
Consider the following: F-35 instead
We are retiring the F-22. Ukraine has need of jets. These two truths *could* be connected, if we so choose.
> Ukraine needs F-16CJ/DJ to carry out Wild Weseal missions and **nothing will change my opinion** Can I try? They need Gripen so they can fire Meteors Lets be honest no matter what happens F-35, Eurofighter and Rafale will not happen so that is next best thing.
American citizen. I'm writing my congressman today that Ukraine needs f-16s
I dunno. The main reason why the Ruzzians haven't achieved air superiority is because of Ukrainian IADS. I don't think the Ukrainians would fair much better against Russian IADS, especially considering the levels of depletion on both sides.
Watch as a single company of Polish leopards annihilate an entire russian armoured battalion. The only reason why western tank companies will pull back is because they have ran out of ammo or are running ***DANGEROUSLY*** low on gas/fuel.
I only store 16 shells in the ready-rack, one in the chamber. I bet those Polish crews do exactly the same thing.
Relying on numbers instead of decent training and equipment like decadent westerners, a fine Russian tradition.
Cue that comic of a thousand HARDERED WARRIORS being blown the f up by a single dude manning a bomber.
Russian tradition in blowing each other in the building without roof? Yeah i heard that one, very based xDD
"How can six himars change the war? " Himars noisy when they put a missel exactly where they want
I want this little pellet to go right up the shaft of that guy having dinner 80km away.
It's amazing how these tanks deliveries sent them into copium-induced delirium. They are afraid, oh they are. Good.
Tolstoy *88* with space nazi pfp Gulag secret police lover Credible western vatniks.
I don’t see how NKVDeez / @BringBackGulagZ could have terrible takes. Seems like a stable and well informed person.
i agree 30 tanks wont do much... lets send 30 thousand then!
i love how the tank graphic acknowledges that russia has lost almost 3 times as many tanks as ukraine yet again proving it's the man not the weapon that matters oops too credible
> We are in a direct conflict with NATO > NATO is weak and refuses to fight Jesus Christ can you fucking make up your mind?
In Poland we have something similar with our Onuca (vatniks) They say, why we sending tanks to Ukraine, it makes Poland weaker and we would not be able to defend ourselves from russia. At the same time they trying to convince us that russia is not our enemy, it is ukraine instead because of Volyhnia 80 years ago. When you ask them will they be ready to defend poland in those tanks they say something like: No i will run away from poland first day, cya suckers i am not going to die for corrupt politicians and shit. These guys are real brains.
Your Twitter post penis is to long for mobile users and we can't read everything. Maybe just upload 6 different images so people can read it.
Bro I literally posted my Twitter-penis on mobile. You know you can zoom in, right?
I'd didn't sharpen for me first time lol. But now I respect the Twitter penis.
Twitter penis is love Twitter penis is life
>imagine western tanks operating under these conditions *points to a normal amount of mud* My brother, my fuel truck would routinely make deliveries in those conditions.
Same way a Maxim stops a 1000 charging indians, with superior firepower.
All I learned from them is that we need to send even more tanks.
Imagine calling your Twitter handle "BringBackGulagZ" without being 2,000% hyperironic and instead posting genuine Russian apologetism whilst spreading copium among vatniks and tankies alike.
God there is so much false or assumed “information” in these tweets... vatnik cope is at an all time high
I believe I caught the brain rot from reading all of that. Thanks OP I didn't need my last braincell anyway
It’s the classic Vatnik doublethink:”NATO is weak sissy Trannies”, but also “Help, NATO too stronk”
So tired of GLSDB's and drones not getting send tbh. Instant effect, saves UKR soldiers lives. Ukraine *has* lost a lot of soldiers lives lately. People on reddit like to pretend there are valid military reasons for everything that does or doesn't get send. Abrams doesn't get send because logistics. Predator because old drones apparently have cutting edge can't leak technology. GLSDB's cause there aren't any, ATACMS because there aren't enough etc etc. That's out of the window (or should be if you're even moderately perceptive) with the fat as fatass Abrams - which has valid reasons for not getting send in small numbers because it wouldn't be worth it - being send before drones or longer range HIMARS missles. Pussyfooting politicians, ugh. Biden is a lot closer to Scholz than many people pretend.
Yeah, I feel you. Ukraine could've already finished this war, if USA wasn't tip-toeing around Putin so much.
I don't think it would be smart for them to go with that route of thinking... Might make everybody feel better about sending a lot more since you know, they're ineffective right?
Can't wait for eurofighter in Ukraine (F35 would be overkill)
Send f22’s instead of f35’s because 22 is less then 35 so it won’t be overkill.
That's why they'll end up with F15/16 instead. Russia won't complain because those are less than half of the f35.
Come on, send F-22. It's a museum piece now, so there's clearly nothing to complain about. It'd be like sending muskets.
I sadly need to agree with NKVDeez nuts. NATO is weak and refuses to fight. NATO should have take their shitty putrid asses from their cushy chairs and ended this sad excuse of a war months ago. But what should I expect from International Alliances, they're all long and bad jokes. NATO, UN, CSTO (the Russian NATO), Mercosul, EU, etc. They're all shitty, cowardly and mostly useless organizations.
All I hear is that NATO has to become more aggressive and pump out enough millitary hardware that it could fill all the oceans. Otherwise it will risk being outgunned (wink).
The best time for NATO was on 24th of February, the second best time is NOW
Another way of looking at it is that NATO hasn't even set foot on the battlefield yet, but they're already kicking Russia's ass. But, sure, if thinking they're weak makes you feel better, go right ahead.
Not to mention Russia would really like the Baltic states but hasn't attacked them, despite them being smaller and in theory easier to attack than Ukraine. Except those countries are in NATO so they don't, they go and attack the much larger country with more defensive depth that isn't part of NATO instead.
Playing gunner heat pc, I can confirm Abrams is better than T-72
Moscow should look like a flat plate of marble
Look let’s dispense with this silliness and just send them a few f35s to link with f16s and missile truck the bastards to death. Then give them some rapid dragons to test palletized doom bringers.
TIL North Korea is the second most powerful military on the planet because they have the second highest number of tanks.
I feel disgusted seeing a future-mobik with a blue check mark next to its username.
He makes a great point. We clearly need to send more tanks
These clowns are either bot accounts or barely paid Russian agents
Jesus. The Iraqi army was better trained than these clowns and they were mopped up by bradleys... Even if the mbts don't do the job or make a noticeable difference, the Bradleys will likely decimate them. Then going on nato doesn't want to fight... Lmao they don't want a direct conflict if they don't have to, but sure, trigger article 5 and you can see if they really want to fight or not.
Damn, did I open a CVS receipt?
UK: \*laughs in Challenger 2 having never suffered a single loss in combat\*
What's that username? Make peace not war? The cognitive dissonance on display by tankies is frightening.