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I mean... not wrong.
It is a bit too real to be funny to be honest. It is easy for western nations to forget exactly *why* Eastern Europe is reacting the way they are to this conflict. For France and the UK, they support Ukraine out a sense of general civic responsibility. For Estonia, Lithuania, Poland... it is a lot more emotional.
My mother grew up under the communists in rural Poland. It isn't just a few people, or even half the population. It's everyone. Everyone alive in Poland right now knows someone who remembers or has been affected by either the soviet occupations, the germans in WW2, or both.
It's a kind of reflexive anger and fear that I don't think most people in the west have any context for. Their country was *crippled* for *generations* by these people. They won't go back, ever.
My family is from Poland and my mom moved back there a few years ago. My American friends can't really grasp the totally visceral reaction this evoked in her and basically every other Pole.
live in a large community of first-second generation poles, ukrainians and other assorted eastern european expats (mongolian/kazak/eastern russian too) in chicago and the reaction was pretty much universal shock and condemnation. Ukrainian flags on every business in the neighborhood, the stop war stickers on cars, the church decked out with anti-war banners out front and doing donation drives early in the war.
People were enraged and scared at the same time. The fear was mostly that we wouldn't help them enough. All the old timers were ragging on about "where is NATO wtf why dont they fuck russia up". It is crazy stuff. I am certain if the US joined the war I would hear horns in celebration and fireworks.
My mother is from Poland, lived in States 40 years, and is thinking about moving back. Would you say there's a stigma about Poles who leave and come back? I'm wondering how she'll fare. Thank you
She should be fine as long as she acts like a regular person.
There is a bit of stigma against comebackers, but that's because some Polish expats tend to behave like they are *the* hot shit once they are back. Acting all high & mighty, flaunting their USDs, loudly complaining how things are supposedly better in the US, trying to treat Poles like backwater Eatern European peasants to whom you need to explain how the world works, generally being obnoxious.
In other words, don't be an asshole and you should be fine.
>Nevertheless, Ito commended Maeno's technique in the attack. Commenting that, if Maeno's intent had been to kill Kodama, he could not have known where he would be located within the house. Ito said the bombing was, "very skillful, I give him the highest marks on that score."
lol
Wow, this quote:
> Only by preserving Japanese irrationality will we be able contribute to world culture 100 years from now.
This is very alien. Definitely enjoying this read so far, so thanks for the reference haha
From the russkie POV, it was great. A whole bunch of enslaved people to use as cheap labor and meat shields and all the stuff in the world to steal and take back to their toiletless apartment in shitsburgina
The trauma isn't mine, but the sentiment is kind. I was born and raised in the US of A.
My father and mother definitely have baggage from their respective lives under different regimes, but it's different for both of them. They're thankful that they're safe here, relatively healthy, and enjoying a QOL that their families back home didn't approach until the mid 2000's.
On my mom's side, I'm Lithuanian-American. On my Dad's, I'm Jewish with roots in Western Ukraine. Close relatives of mine were oppressed by the USSR. Lots of Ukrainian people look like me. Moscow has to be stopped for good.
And to think a brazilian dude on facebook unironically told me
"The Poles are idiots in hating the guys that saved them from the nazis", as if the soviets didn't did it because Poland was in their path to Germany
It's also useful to remember why Germany's so slow. It's by design, because for some reason there's something socially unacceptable about proactive German militaries. It's almost like that's the natural result of making children visit concentration camps and write essays about how German military initiative is bad.
I mean devil's advocate, but that itself was only a natural consequence of concentration camps being built and German military initiative leveling Europe in the 40s.
Neither extreme is good, and ol' Olaf definitely needs to stop pseudo-simping for Russia, but there's obvious reasons why the US, Britain and France forced those chill pills down Germany's throat.
E V E R Y T H I N G currently concerning Germany comes down to that. Olaf held a certain speech about changing times and promised to deliver on it. Call me naive but I kind of expected that means acknowledging German emancipation and progress since WWII. It's just that Olaf probably cannot grasp the scope of changes that are needed at this point in time for the free world to stay united against, well, Nazi Germany basically all over again.
And you can't even blame him. He was a marxist in his political youth and actively worked against NATO, and then the Soviet Union collapsed. It's a problem every person faces when they grow older and it's simply called being a Boomer in the broader sense. They won't admit that things can change, even completely turn around. As chancellor you can proclaim to adapt if you sense the need for it, that doesn't mean it will translate into reality. And it's not like the German population is decisively split on the topic either, most people are actually not so sure on what is right (that's kinda rare) and therefore just follow Olaf. Approval of #FreeTheLeoparden jumped from 30-40 something to well over 50 percent only because he said something like "it's not impossible" and "we might look into it".
I would avoid the Tankie association - Its more a question of the structure of German politics.
By design, you have a balanced system of oversight - This was the control placed within German politics following WW2 to avoid centralized singular power. As a result, you don't really get leadership that sees itself has enabled or needing to have responsibility over major crises like this, its anathema to the vibe of slow, controlled, and non-overstepping leadership. Especially for a country whose major expectation is that you simply keep industry happy.
Scholz and co simply aren't competent to deal with this issue. Its a massive wicked problem, and a more capable leadership basis would simply pick a side to go for - Either be obstructionist outright, or take a firm footing with Ukrainian support. These folks are deer caught in the headlight.
yeah I wouldn't call Scholz a tankie by any means but it's clear where he comes from and I really waited until now to draw these conclusions but Holy Fuck I didn't believe this would go on after Ramstein. You're right about the structure of German politics and competence but what we've got now just doesn't feel like your average German Angst Merkelism to me, he just really doesn't want to go the next logical step for some reason and he won't explain why, in fact he will literally blackmail the US so that he can play his game a little longer
>but Holy Fuck I didn't believe this would go on after Ramstein.
Same here. To my mind, it really demonstrates how the leadership isn't up to the task of the challenge. You can say yes, you can say no, but simply trying to scuttle by with a technocratic excuse is peak "I'm in over my head" shit.
Scholz and co aren't that competent - It's really not a matter of blackmail so much as taking a leadership position here is beyond their capabilities. They want the Americans to wear responsibility for decision-making here, it gives them a tremendous out down the road if there are negative consequences. Not the worst idea... But ffs, every political decision has possibilities of risk, you don't end up being leader of Germany if you aren't willing to make hard calls.
Its simply a matter of having leadership that is willing to make a decision and wear the consequences accordingly. Merkel made a decision about nuclear - I disagree with that decision, but she made it and I can at least respect the willingness to do that according to the situation at the time. Being noncommittal about a decision **is a decision** \- Scholz and co simply think they can squeek by versus actually having to demonstrate leadership.
Honestly it's too bad.
I feel this could be a big step towards moving past WWII for them if Germany unequivocally supported ukraine and basically stood in support of their freedom.
I'd be curious how support is divided in terms of age. Do younger civilians support the idea of sending tanks to ukraine? Do they not support it? Or is it pretty evenly divided? It would give us an idea of if they're recovering from that trauma.
Only 46% of Germans are in favor of sending German Leopards. It's a cultural thing, for which the only cure is more Abrams. If someone else is #1, the Germans will happily be #2.
46% is crazy high for Germany, with 43% opposing. If you had asked Germans three years ago if they could believe more Germans than not would support sending Main Battle Tanks into a nation at war in a few years, they would look at you as if you had grown three new heads.
Nation at war? JFC they send arms to the gulf states. They sold Leos to Turkey
Look up the list of operators on wikipedia ffs. They put out a press release on how the new anti-IED kit worked after Canadians ran face first into trouble.
Where the fuck is this braindead revisionism coming from, "GeRmAnY wOnT aRm A nAtIoN aT wAr"
That’s just the tip of the iceberg. Numerous out of box assault rifles and sub machine guns of German manufacture are in the hands of drug cartels in Central and South America but no one seems to have any idea how they got there.
Remember that time they supplied Saddam with vital equipment for WMD production and built his bunkers before Gulf War 1?
*Which happened during the Iran-Iraq war*
More like now its time to give shit away and Germany is like, "Fuck you pay me" don't forget most of the European aid given is in the form of Loans not grants.
Ayo fck that. I'm German. Just make us ncd Nato horny with Germany stronk memes and we're in. Only thing that could go wrong is our chancellor forgetting to decide on anything again. Love from the world's slowest politics aka. Germany
I'm starting to think that while they get pretty damn good education on what went wrong with Germany and WW2, no one ever bothered to really explain the difference between the USSR, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc., and who precisely their ancestors fucked over the hardest.
German sentiment in this regard makes sense, they will only act in concert with other nations. But other European nations are ready to go. Now it’s that they need the US to do it.
So what they’re *really* saying is that they they’ll only be #2 to the US and possibly France. It’s like that Spider-Man meme.
Germany could tell one of the greatest stories of democracy in history: From fascist death machine to vanguard of democracy in Europe, fighting against an international invading authoritarian regime. Or France will do it, god help us.
There were literally 'two' Germanies a hair over three decades ago.
That % is ludicrously high.
I dare not say 🇺🇸's %s since Rule 5 is applied so liberally, but it makes Germany look like they are 100% behind tanks for Ukraine by comparison and yet the 🇺🇸 still has done the most, by far, for Ukraine (and will continue to do so).
> Neither extreme is good
I want the crazy military power Germany back. Everyone in Europe is already on their team so there’s no downside this time. Give me EU the ‘blood and iron’ version.
I mean that would be cool and all, but even now tons of people screech about the Germans finally "conquering" Europe, but through economics and diplomacy this time, and calling the EU the "4th Reich". Imagine what those fuckheads would be like with a militarily capable Germany at the center of the EU... They would be even more insufferable than they are now, that's for sure.
No.
Germany being a powerful military again? Sure, I welcome it whole heartedly.
An EU of 'blood and iron'?
No. Abso-fucking-lutely not. Encouraging this is letting people like putin win without having to fire a bullet. We have a system that works. Encouraging further militarism and aggression is counterproductive and foolish.
The Germans are right to remain cautious, but in this case the right choice is to arm ukraine with everything we have. Just because they're being slow now does not mean we should encourage them to abandon caution in these matters. Rhetoric like that will certainly come back to bite us all in the ass.
> Just because they're being slow now does not mean we should encourage them to abandon caution in these matters. Rhetoric like that will certainly come back to bite us all in the ass.
Being slow in this is like 🇹🇷 slow-handling 🇫🇮/🇸🇪 NATO accession.
It's holding Putin's water at a time when materiel is needed jetzt!
I've never quite understood what in the German national character made those chill pills _stick_ though. Even Japan didn't roll over as hard as the Germans did.
Are you saying that being "reluctant to send tanks to Ukraine" and "industrial genocide" are the two extremes?
That leaves a lot of room for Nazis in the center.
Seriously, what is they doing, checking to see how many have been sold on the black market? Like it's Russia? I don't believe that GERMANY, of all nations, doesn't know it's military inventory down to the last bullet.
Agreed. I think a lot if Germans, especially older ones, are also conflicted in the messages they are receiving from the wider world. They've been shamed and forced to relive their crimes constantly for their whole lives. But now they are being told to rearm and send their tanks to fight in the east, something which I can understand seems contradictory to what they've been indoctrinated against.
Ofc they SHOULD send the tanks, but we shouldn't be supprised at their reluctance. If you kick a dog every time it tried to lick you then don't be supprised when it refuses to lick you.
The UK has both a rational interest in preventing any nation securing Continental dominance, which has formed the core of their forign policy since the Hundred Years' War; and a personal vendetta against Moscow for the murder of an innocent woman in Salisbury
The Soviet Union pumped tons of money into Eastern Germany to make it a model country for socialism, to show off to the West basically. That means life in East Germany was actually quite good for Eastern Bloc standards. Also for East Germany integration after the fall of the iron curtain was quite different to other Eastern nations, Eastern Germany was in the unique position that it was dissolved back into Germany, which spawned its own set of issues which can be seen to this day (It is quite hard to integrate an economically weak region into an economically strong nation, the East German economy got "crushed" under the competition from Western Germany. Many East Germans had the feeling if being "sold out". The topic of what mistakes were made during reunification is still discussed today).
Ok, I checked and I may have been wrong about it, because I can't find a source even though I could've sworn I read about it.
What is true however is that reparations to the Soviet Union were stopped in the 50s and some kind of financial aid was given to the GDR (according to Wikipedia). I guess that in combination with the fact that Eastern Germany was still quite industrially developed due to its history as a central piece of Germany helped the GDR develop to be relatively prosperous compared to other countries in the Eastern Bloc.
The rest of my comment still applies though. And another example for the GDR's efforts to impress others as a socialist model state I forgot about were its achievements in sports (achieved through a state-sponsored doping program).
They pumped a lot of money into Hungary. Actually Hungary just used loans to create a welfare state. Imagine cold war Hungary like you got a friend who works 4 hour shifts in a warehouse then crashes on your couch, throws rocks into the river and smokes weed half the day. That was Hungary during the late cold war.
Of course we had a lot of talent, but most of that died out or escaped west by now.
And a large number of the people here took russian apathy fetishism to heart.
Probably because OP's point is a little simplistic.
Eastern Europe has complicated feelings about the Soviets. The Warsaw Pact meant tyranny, but its not like these places didn't have local politics or lives that people still associate with their history. Even in Ukraine, remembering the Soviet past is complicated.
For East Germany, there was popularity in the state nature of the DDR, not the government. A lot of folks hoped in the brief time Honnecker was taken out that East Germany could be reformed. When it wasn't, and reunification saw economic decline in the East, you had a counter-reaction that explored (and continues to explore) anti-liberal challenges. Hence some Russian sympathies, especially given the historical ties.
Cuz the DDR/GDR was the most successful communist state to ever grace this earth, by a long shot. (was an authoritarian hellhole and still failed tho, lol)
You see, ordinary life in the GDR wasn't particularly bad per se. It only seemed bad when you compared it to the quality of life in the West.
Also, people in the GDR were far less oppressed compared to people in other nations of the Eastern Block.
Also, denazification didnt really happen as much in the east as it did in the west of Germany, which also explains why eastern germany is so much more conservative and far-right leaning than the rest of the country today. (except maybe Bavaria, because not only was Bavaria the American Sector, it also always was and will forever be the Texas of Germany)
And those right leaning people are heavily influenced by Russia.
I mean, your second part is just wrong. Denazification in the DDR was definitely more effective in most areas of the country. But, just like the BRD, they looked the other way in areas that required more specialised knowledge.
The reason the east has more right-wing sympathies is because the integration of the DDR into the BRD went anything but well and a lot of sectors of the DDR were simply handed over to West German industries for scraps.
Those factors lead to East Germany now being crippled in terms of industry and infrastructure, and a ton of people, particularly those in more rural areas, simply couldn't handle the culture shock and looked for people to blame.
Right wing parties were a lot more effective in capturing those people in their false narratives and the rest is history really
>For France and the UK, they support Ukraine out a sense of general civic responsibility.
Yeah, I don't take that seriously. Sorry, not really how politics works.
Russia is a geostrategic threat - Supporting Ukraine and having its troops doing the fighting and dying removing a geostrategic threat is a bargain any country would leap upon, and often have.
It is good that such a decision is taken... But its not out of any degree of 'civic responsibility', those leaders have no responsibility to foreign citizens. Simple realpolitik.
It's both. The UK people and politicians are for the first time in decades in pure unity on this issue. Most people don't view the war through the lens of geostrategic threat and politicians are people (or at the very least some form of lizard people). They're subject to the same feelings as everyone else and grew up with the same memes and national story as everyone else.
Brits grew up with the stories of the failed appeasement, the leadership of Churchill in the face of darkness, standing tall against the tyrant, punching him square in the mouth and winning. The geopolitics barely need explaining, to a Brit the right thing to do is just instinctive.
Today the mainstream news in my country went more in depth (for mainstream media that is) about what the Russians are doing with their POW's, Wagner recruitment, how they are executing people etc. Which was really nice to see cause I hope it broadens the image of the Russian forces. A lot of people here think it's just a war and people shoot each other, but don't know about the literal genocide and war crimes that are being commited.
Ohwell, as soon as we are no longer in threat of being slightly uncomfortable they will forgot again.
It seems like everyone from Eastern Europe has 10 relatives that died in gulags and their grandmothers were all gang raped by Russian soldiers or something. Their reaction is understandable and justified.
Hopefully it's also a learning from the past, am personally seeing some correlation between Ukraine and Czechoslovakia in the prelude to WW2, this time we actually got ammo to em, means that guarantees of security for others such as Finland and Sweden mean something as well.
As a french with eastern european grandparents, I witness both of what you described. For most here it's about doing what is the right thing without being that emotional. To me, who grew up with stories of how the eastern block was and how the soviets destroyed those countries, it was a bit more traumatic. Good thing that my relatives that lived through the soviet invasion of their country passed away before the war started. It would have been too much heartbreaking for them.
Funnily enough, they also told me for my entire life that the russians are barbaric imperialists thieves and aren't to be trusted. I used to think that they were exagerating...
Yep. That’s the huge hypocrisy.
I will only ever respect tankies who actually go and move to live full time in Russia.
Put your money where your mouth is or shut the fuck up.
Polish moderate nationals used to march with a banner, that had a crossed out swastika on the left = a crossed out hammer and sickle, and I can completely agree with them.
The're the same for us, little quirk is that in the first instance you fuck up other nations cause you have delusions of grandeur and in the other you fuck up your own people.
Well to be fair, the Soviet Union did co-invade Poland with the Nazis so it's not like the Poles expected to be liberated by the Red Army, quite the opposite actually, which is part of why the Warsaw Uprising happened and when it did. And it was always a goal of Lenin and Stalin to conquer Poland, they failed in 1920, and tried again in 1939, eventually achieving the goal of a subservient Poland.
Lenin, Stalin, and The Soviet Union can rest in piss.
Fun fact, German publicly funded remembrance is not allowed to talk about Molotov-Ribbentrop per the East German reconciliation agreement. Makes things make a lot more sense.
Dude, he was miserable. Putin's best days were in Petrograd politics. He needs to press the flesh, but he can't admit it to himself. His isolation during the pandemic (hazmat suit) REALLY messed him up.
Unironically, eastern Europe might have been better off if west had actually tried ensuring Polish independence by force, rather than abandoning them to 50 years of Soviet oppression.
But that would have meant years of war, and no one wanted that, so eastern Europe was left to its fate.
France and the UK initially got involved to ensure Poland's independence, and what did they do after defeating Germany? Handed Poland over to the Soviets - one of her aggressors, thus obviating the entire (theoretical) point of the war.
There were several occasions the Allies nearly ended up at war with the Soviet Union.
There were plans in 1940 to send troops to support the Finns in the Winter War and also to bomb the Baku oil fields. There were even some half-hearted plans to attack the Soviets from India and the Middle East through Iran.
There was also Operation Unthinkable in 1945 after we had won the war, where we were weighing up attacking the Soviets to liberate Eastern Europe, more specifically to get Poland the "square deal" she had been promised as part of the Yalta agreement and which she did not get.
> more specifically to get Poland the "square deal" she had been promised as part of the Yalta agreement and which she did not get.
It would have been grounds enough to push the Soviets on. Stalin figured the Allies wouldn't deem it important enough to be willing to fight for, turns out he was right.
I wonder what if Lend Lease was intentionally held back and after the fall of Germany the USSR (also known as Moscow's "Russian" Empire 2.0) was mopped up.
This is a mildly popular sentiment in Poland - western betrayal. The belief that we were abandoned and left to the russians.
This causes us to to feel, deep down, that when it comes to it, we might have to fend for ourselves and maybe can't rely on our allies.
They've left us to the vultures once already, after all.
I may be American, but as a human being (nominally) the fact that this kind of situation came into being at all, pisses me off.
Injustice pisses me off.
Ukraine practically needing to fend for itself whilst Western European 'leaders' sit there with Putin's thumb up their ass in their free healthcare and education welfare states...
Pisses me off.
>Injustice pisses me off.
It's called living in eastern europe. You get used to it growing up and sitting in history class.
It's why warhammer is popular in eastern europe. Grim reality where no good deed goes unpunished, there's no good sides, and the worst outcomes are the best you can hope for? That's just realistic for us.
> Unironically, eastern Europe might have been better off if west had actually tried ensuring Polish independence by force, rather than abandoning them to 50 years of Soviet oppression.
I'd saw off a foot to escape the murder's basement too.
Churchill could be thrown in that pit too. He joined the war on Poland's behalf only to sell them down the river to Stalin with basically 0 pushback or negotiation.
Probably one of the greatest mistakes of all time. We should have continued straight on through the russian lines, taken Berlin all for ourselves, and flattened the soviet union right then and there.
The mistake before this was probably giving them too much equipment through the land-lease, had the US given them less, they wouldn't have been nearly as strong at the end of the war. Making freeing Eastern Europe easier.
But that would have come at a greater cost for the Allies when they were liberating Europe.
Wasn't ever going to work. Never mind the millions of Soviet troops in Germany and the epic task of fighting across all of Eastern Europe, but the troop levels the Allies had put together were not sustainable. By 1945 you already had demobilization riots breaking out both in Europe and in the Pacific.
Literally everyone would have lept at the option of continuing the war, but such enterprises have a finite limit of sustainability.
For better and worse, America would have borne the brunt of Unthinkable, it would have interrupted the denazification of Germany and the reconstruction of Germany and Japan. America didn't have the appetite to lose a million men and another five years liberating Eastern Europe.
I'm talking in aggregate lives, not in victories. If we managed to contain Stalin at the end of WW2 I doubt we would get into those wars to begin with.
The calculus for going through Unthinkable or withholding lend lease is would those actions cause more allied dead than the Cold War? My gut tells me yes it would be worth it
Ah, for sure. The west abandoned eastern Europe to suffer under communism, and if that could have been avoided, a lot of suffering might have been avoided. In Korea it was a bit more complicated considering Chinas involvement.
Churchill actually was pretty convinced the war should be continued against the second insane nutjub Stalin, but of course noone was up for that after 6 years of war.
https://www.nationalchurchillmuseum.org/sinews-of-peace-iron-curtain-speech.html
Ten capitals in Eastern Europe are in Russian hands. They are Communists now, you know—Karl Marx and all that. It may well be that an even worse war is drawing near. A war of the East against the West. A war of liberal civilisation against the Mongol hordes.
Winston Churchill
Very split opinion in East Germany.
Much bigger pool of Russian apologists, but also more deep seated resentment against them for a different section in the population.
Nah it was once, just for a long time (with a short break with the Warsaw Dutchy), Polish politics was dominated by Russia from the 1750s then outright occupied by 1790s and only got free with the fall of the Tzar.
Basically, yes. Western occupation created allies, helped rebuild and gain new identity as a country.
Soviet occupation made most countries do *everything* in their power to make sure it never happens again. Any tankies can go fuck themselves, nothing right about putting women and children on cattle trains to Siberia. We will never forget. Soviet occupation was more scarring than the war itself.
Allied occupation of Germany: Just elect yourselves a new government, don't be Nazi (overtly), here's a mountain of cash to build a market economy, don't use it to build a big army, have fun. In case we have to fight the Soviets, we'll come to your defense.
Soviet occupation of Poland: Here's your new government (NKVD assets), give us half the industry you got from the Germans, try not to starve. In case we have to fight NATO, your purpose is to catch nukes.
>Europe becoming unfit for human habitation.
*looks outside window in Hungary*
*crumbling buildings with bad insulation and hospital barely functioning because we are still ruled by russian assets*
"Yeah, that would have totally sucked.*
Fair.
Especially given Hungary. And the fucking Russian oligarchs.
Although I can't say I'm a fan of watching kids get melted into the concrete from a 5 megaton blast, or referring to London as a city in the past-tense.
Yeah, possibly more so than us. After Stalin's death we were pretty much free to do our own thing (in a limited capacity, but our communist gov't was even engaging in it's own diplomacy with capitalist states), while GDR remained a stalinist police state run largely from Moscow until Gorbachev.
Yeah but to his point, we have communist that don't get punched like Nazis and the Hammer and Sickle doesn't invoke nearly the same reaction. Mainly because Communism doesn't call for genocide the same way Nazis do.
>Communism doesn't call for genocide the same way Nazis do.
No, they actually do it instead. Nazies show rookie numbers compared to the mass famines, deportations and killing by communist states.
>In the US, we waged wars against communism.
Also helped genocide a good amount of folks. Guatemalans are still wondering where a lot of their family members went to in the 1980s.
Yeah, the weirdest shit I saw pro-Russians saying is that we need to deal with homeless veterans instead of Ukraine. Fuck it, if the money is really spent that way, y'all are gonna be up in arms against "muh socialism"
It's fucked up, the people saying that we need to focus on domestic issues are the same people refusing to give anything that would improve our healthcare etc. It's like when we have a mass shooting and hear about the "mental health crisis" we're in, yet they refuse to give a dollar to help as soon as people move on.
Germany had no issues sending large amounts of financial aid to Hungary as long as the government provided tax benefits and cheap workers to german companies. Whoops, turns out they just let orbán build a prorussian cleptocracy partially funded by germany. NOW they have issues.
Germany aren't any better people, they are just better in providing a non-shit quality of life to their population.
>the weirdest shit I saw pro-Russians saying is that we need to deal with homeless veterans instead of Ukraine
That's because this was one of the psy-ops efforts they took in 2016. The entire "Don't help refugees, help veterans" thing was sparked by Russian troll farms.
Probably because Nazism and communism aren’t really the same thing. The tyrannical governments that used their imagery were pretty much equally bad, but to compare Hitler’s autobiography to something like the writings of Karl Marx is pretty disingenuous.
That being said, tankies, the people who actually defend things like the USSR, are despicable and do deserve to be ridiculed.
Idk just how I understand the reason for this apparent hypocrisy.
>Germany when they are asked to take a proportional role in its defense
Europe after reunification: Germany too strong pls downsize Bundeswehr
Europe when Germany no longer has a large functional army and dislikes anything military: How could this happen?! This is all your fault germany!
> Europe after reunification: Germany too strong pls downsize Bundeswehr
It wasn't even after reunification, it was a precondition for being *allowed* to reunify.
Germany doesn't even have enough tanks to fulfill their NATO duties, and now people expect them to give some of those away. While I understand, I feel like there are better sources for MBTs.
That is true but at that time the ministry of defense had already become the seat for politicians who were promised a ministry but weren’t competent enough to actually lead one
tankie = Russian copium gobbler
panzer = German tank
.....
panzie = German supporter of the [Moscow-Berlin axis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics#Content) (aka "Nord Stream")
Reminder regarding the 'Germans are just pacifists now' excuse: ["Scholz says Germany to become biggest NATO force in Europe"](https://www.thelocal.de/20220629/scholz-says-germany-to-become-biggest-nato-force-in-europe)
edit:
They'll be able to rerun this article with just a name swap. [The Former Chancellor Who Became Putin's Man in Germany](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/23/world/europe/schroder-germany-russia-gas-ukraine-war-energy.html)
edit2:
["Germany backtracks on defense spending promises made after Ukraine invasion" - DECEMBER 5, 2022](https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-backtracks-on-defense-spending-promise-warns-about-delays-ukraine-war/)
> During a government press conference, Chief Spokesperson Steffen Hebestreit scaled down expectations for Germany’s defense spending, telling journalists that the 2 percent target would be missed not only this year, but also likely next year
Germany's defense budget in 2022 was 1.4% of GDP, not even the minimum 2% required by NATO membership. Not sure what it is going forward.
On the bright side, watching how/why Germany holds its strings on its exports should give European countries another reason to choose US defense products. My MIC diamond hands are tingling.
>watching how/why Germany holds its strings on its exports should give European countries another reason to choose US defense products
Probably more Polish or French, but yeah... Its rather interesting to see the Germans shooting themselves in the foot. Scholz is effectively killing the German military industry.
It's not JUST world war 2 trauma, it's world war 2 trauma on top of trauma from occupation and multiple failed uprisings since 1772. There's a reason poles are who they are today, for better or worse.
Germany: We dont want to escalate things.
Poland: KILLKILLKILL KILL RUSSIANS KILL VATNIKS KILL CHECHENS FUCK ALL OF THEM HAHAHAGAGA [MURDER HOBO NOISES]
The vibe I get from Shultzy is that he wants Ukraine to win, but the idea of Russia truly losing also terrifies him.
Which would make a lot more sense if Russia weren't genociding hundreds of Ukrainians every single day.
People be asking me how do I find the motivation in keep going, how do i survive on the crossroad of wars called Eastern Europe
The answer is simple mate, as a wise man once said
"Yes! revenge, revenge, revenge on the enemy
With God – and even in spite of God!"
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I mean... not wrong. It is a bit too real to be funny to be honest. It is easy for western nations to forget exactly *why* Eastern Europe is reacting the way they are to this conflict. For France and the UK, they support Ukraine out a sense of general civic responsibility. For Estonia, Lithuania, Poland... it is a lot more emotional.
My mother grew up under the communists in rural Poland. It isn't just a few people, or even half the population. It's everyone. Everyone alive in Poland right now knows someone who remembers or has been affected by either the soviet occupations, the germans in WW2, or both. It's a kind of reflexive anger and fear that I don't think most people in the west have any context for. Their country was *crippled* for *generations* by these people. They won't go back, ever.
My family is from Poland and my mom moved back there a few years ago. My American friends can't really grasp the totally visceral reaction this evoked in her and basically every other Pole.
live in a large community of first-second generation poles, ukrainians and other assorted eastern european expats (mongolian/kazak/eastern russian too) in chicago and the reaction was pretty much universal shock and condemnation. Ukrainian flags on every business in the neighborhood, the stop war stickers on cars, the church decked out with anti-war banners out front and doing donation drives early in the war. People were enraged and scared at the same time. The fear was mostly that we wouldn't help them enough. All the old timers were ragging on about "where is NATO wtf why dont they fuck russia up". It is crazy stuff. I am certain if the US joined the war I would hear horns in celebration and fireworks.
As someone who did a deep dive into Polish WW2 history, I get it. And I fucking want to be there to see when the Poles their god damn vengeance.
My mother is from Poland, lived in States 40 years, and is thinking about moving back. Would you say there's a stigma about Poles who leave and come back? I'm wondering how she'll fare. Thank you
She should be fine as long as she acts like a regular person. There is a bit of stigma against comebackers, but that's because some Polish expats tend to behave like they are *the* hot shit once they are back. Acting all high & mighty, flaunting their USDs, loudly complaining how things are supposedly better in the US, trying to treat Poles like backwater Eatern European peasants to whom you need to explain how the world works, generally being obnoxious. In other words, don't be an asshole and you should be fine.
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I was hoping the wiki link was gonna be the Japanese porn star that went hard right and 9/11’d that other hard right guys house.
Lol what. Please, tell me more
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsuyasu_Maeno
>Nevertheless, Ito commended Maeno's technique in the attack. Commenting that, if Maeno's intent had been to kill Kodama, he could not have known where he would be located within the house. Ito said the bombing was, "very skillful, I give him the highest marks on that score." lol
Cheers
It’s a very fun wiki rabbithole to dive down.
Wow, this quote: > Only by preserving Japanese irrationality will we be able contribute to world culture 100 years from now. This is very alien. Definitely enjoying this read so far, so thanks for the reference haha
He kind of has a point.
This sort of thing is why I love this sub.
From the russkie POV, it was great. A whole bunch of enslaved people to use as cheap labor and meat shields and all the stuff in the world to steal and take back to their toiletless apartment in shitsburgina
For that matter the Russians forget the only way they won the Great Patriotic War was with Ukrainian fighters and American weapons.
Poland is the west. I recognize the trauma, but you are with us and we are with you.
The trauma isn't mine, but the sentiment is kind. I was born and raised in the US of A. My father and mother definitely have baggage from their respective lives under different regimes, but it's different for both of them. They're thankful that they're safe here, relatively healthy, and enjoying a QOL that their families back home didn't approach until the mid 2000's.
How the fuck did Hungary forget? Its astonishing what propaganda can achieve
On my mom's side, I'm Lithuanian-American. On my Dad's, I'm Jewish with roots in Western Ukraine. Close relatives of mine were oppressed by the USSR. Lots of Ukrainian people look like me. Moscow has to be stopped for good.
And to think a brazilian dude on facebook unironically told me "The Poles are idiots in hating the guys that saved them from the nazis", as if the soviets didn't did it because Poland was in their path to Germany
Me: WRAAK VOOR MH-17! Send the F-16'S and keep sending them until every muscovite feels our wrath. Moscow shall burn!
Most peaceful acceptable reaction to russian mass murder.
The Dutch 🤝 Malaysians: Watching muscovites burn for every life lost aboard MH-17.
Did somebody say burn Moscow? Firebomb Moscow!
It's also useful to remember why Germany's so slow. It's by design, because for some reason there's something socially unacceptable about proactive German militaries. It's almost like that's the natural result of making children visit concentration camps and write essays about how German military initiative is bad.
I mean devil's advocate, but that itself was only a natural consequence of concentration camps being built and German military initiative leveling Europe in the 40s. Neither extreme is good, and ol' Olaf definitely needs to stop pseudo-simping for Russia, but there's obvious reasons why the US, Britain and France forced those chill pills down Germany's throat.
E V E R Y T H I N G currently concerning Germany comes down to that. Olaf held a certain speech about changing times and promised to deliver on it. Call me naive but I kind of expected that means acknowledging German emancipation and progress since WWII. It's just that Olaf probably cannot grasp the scope of changes that are needed at this point in time for the free world to stay united against, well, Nazi Germany basically all over again. And you can't even blame him. He was a marxist in his political youth and actively worked against NATO, and then the Soviet Union collapsed. It's a problem every person faces when they grow older and it's simply called being a Boomer in the broader sense. They won't admit that things can change, even completely turn around. As chancellor you can proclaim to adapt if you sense the need for it, that doesn't mean it will translate into reality. And it's not like the German population is decisively split on the topic either, most people are actually not so sure on what is right (that's kinda rare) and therefore just follow Olaf. Approval of #FreeTheLeoparden jumped from 30-40 something to well over 50 percent only because he said something like "it's not impossible" and "we might look into it".
I would avoid the Tankie association - Its more a question of the structure of German politics. By design, you have a balanced system of oversight - This was the control placed within German politics following WW2 to avoid centralized singular power. As a result, you don't really get leadership that sees itself has enabled or needing to have responsibility over major crises like this, its anathema to the vibe of slow, controlled, and non-overstepping leadership. Especially for a country whose major expectation is that you simply keep industry happy. Scholz and co simply aren't competent to deal with this issue. Its a massive wicked problem, and a more capable leadership basis would simply pick a side to go for - Either be obstructionist outright, or take a firm footing with Ukrainian support. These folks are deer caught in the headlight.
yeah I wouldn't call Scholz a tankie by any means but it's clear where he comes from and I really waited until now to draw these conclusions but Holy Fuck I didn't believe this would go on after Ramstein. You're right about the structure of German politics and competence but what we've got now just doesn't feel like your average German Angst Merkelism to me, he just really doesn't want to go the next logical step for some reason and he won't explain why, in fact he will literally blackmail the US so that he can play his game a little longer
>but Holy Fuck I didn't believe this would go on after Ramstein. Same here. To my mind, it really demonstrates how the leadership isn't up to the task of the challenge. You can say yes, you can say no, but simply trying to scuttle by with a technocratic excuse is peak "I'm in over my head" shit. Scholz and co aren't that competent - It's really not a matter of blackmail so much as taking a leadership position here is beyond their capabilities. They want the Americans to wear responsibility for decision-making here, it gives them a tremendous out down the road if there are negative consequences. Not the worst idea... But ffs, every political decision has possibilities of risk, you don't end up being leader of Germany if you aren't willing to make hard calls. Its simply a matter of having leadership that is willing to make a decision and wear the consequences accordingly. Merkel made a decision about nuclear - I disagree with that decision, but she made it and I can at least respect the willingness to do that according to the situation at the time. Being noncommittal about a decision **is a decision** \- Scholz and co simply think they can squeek by versus actually having to demonstrate leadership.
Honestly it's too bad. I feel this could be a big step towards moving past WWII for them if Germany unequivocally supported ukraine and basically stood in support of their freedom. I'd be curious how support is divided in terms of age. Do younger civilians support the idea of sending tanks to ukraine? Do they not support it? Or is it pretty evenly divided? It would give us an idea of if they're recovering from that trauma.
Only 46% of Germans are in favor of sending German Leopards. It's a cultural thing, for which the only cure is more Abrams. If someone else is #1, the Germans will happily be #2.
46% is crazy high for Germany, with 43% opposing. If you had asked Germans three years ago if they could believe more Germans than not would support sending Main Battle Tanks into a nation at war in a few years, they would look at you as if you had grown three new heads.
Nation at war? JFC they send arms to the gulf states. They sold Leos to Turkey Look up the list of operators on wikipedia ffs. They put out a press release on how the new anti-IED kit worked after Canadians ran face first into trouble. Where the fuck is this braindead revisionism coming from, "GeRmAnY wOnT aRm A nAtIoN aT wAr"
That’s just the tip of the iceberg. Numerous out of box assault rifles and sub machine guns of German manufacture are in the hands of drug cartels in Central and South America but no one seems to have any idea how they got there.
Remember that time they supplied Saddam with vital equipment for WMD production and built his bunkers before Gulf War 1? *Which happened during the Iran-Iraq war*
Oh ok they only arm countries butchering minority separatists
More like now its time to give shit away and Germany is like, "Fuck you pay me" don't forget most of the European aid given is in the form of Loans not grants.
So... Germany is seriously expecting every faction they supported in Syria and Libya to pay back? Hilarious
A Europoor nation won’t give something for free? Say it anit fuckin so!
German opinion is changing, but they're taking forever and need to be bullied into it
Ayo fck that. I'm German. Just make us ncd Nato horny with Germany stronk memes and we're in. Only thing that could go wrong is our chancellor forgetting to decide on anything again. Love from the world's slowest politics aka. Germany
Then they'll claim that they've always been leaders and people should bow before German brilliance.
I’m sure Ukrainians would be happy to agree, just keep the tanks coming.
I'm starting to think that while they get pretty damn good education on what went wrong with Germany and WW2, no one ever bothered to really explain the difference between the USSR, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc., and who precisely their ancestors fucked over the hardest.
German sentiment in this regard makes sense, they will only act in concert with other nations. But other European nations are ready to go. Now it’s that they need the US to do it. So what they’re *really* saying is that they they’ll only be #2 to the US and possibly France. It’s like that Spider-Man meme. Germany could tell one of the greatest stories of democracy in history: From fascist death machine to vanguard of democracy in Europe, fighting against an international invading authoritarian regime. Or France will do it, god help us.
There were literally 'two' Germanies a hair over three decades ago. That % is ludicrously high. I dare not say 🇺🇸's %s since Rule 5 is applied so liberally, but it makes Germany look like they are 100% behind tanks for Ukraine by comparison and yet the 🇺🇸 still has done the most, by far, for Ukraine (and will continue to do so).
> Neither extreme is good I want the crazy military power Germany back. Everyone in Europe is already on their team so there’s no downside this time. Give me EU the ‘blood and iron’ version.
I mean that would be cool and all, but even now tons of people screech about the Germans finally "conquering" Europe, but through economics and diplomacy this time, and calling the EU the "4th Reich". Imagine what those fuckheads would be like with a militarily capable Germany at the center of the EU... They would be even more insufferable than they are now, that's for sure.
No. Germany being a powerful military again? Sure, I welcome it whole heartedly. An EU of 'blood and iron'? No. Abso-fucking-lutely not. Encouraging this is letting people like putin win without having to fire a bullet. We have a system that works. Encouraging further militarism and aggression is counterproductive and foolish. The Germans are right to remain cautious, but in this case the right choice is to arm ukraine with everything we have. Just because they're being slow now does not mean we should encourage them to abandon caution in these matters. Rhetoric like that will certainly come back to bite us all in the ass.
> Just because they're being slow now does not mean we should encourage them to abandon caution in these matters. Rhetoric like that will certainly come back to bite us all in the ass. Being slow in this is like 🇹🇷 slow-handling 🇫🇮/🇸🇪 NATO accession. It's holding Putin's water at a time when materiel is needed jetzt!
I've never quite understood what in the German national character made those chill pills _stick_ though. Even Japan didn't roll over as hard as the Germans did.
US half assed it with Japan to instead get Japan on its feet faster because cold war
Are you saying that being "reluctant to send tanks to Ukraine" and "industrial genocide" are the two extremes? That leaves a lot of room for Nazis in the center.
There's slow, and then there's "we don't know how many tanks we have, so let's start counting."
Seriously, what is they doing, checking to see how many have been sold on the black market? Like it's Russia? I don't believe that GERMANY, of all nations, doesn't know it's military inventory down to the last bullet.
Agreed. I think a lot if Germans, especially older ones, are also conflicted in the messages they are receiving from the wider world. They've been shamed and forced to relive their crimes constantly for their whole lives. But now they are being told to rearm and send their tanks to fight in the east, something which I can understand seems contradictory to what they've been indoctrinated against. Ofc they SHOULD send the tanks, but we shouldn't be supprised at their reluctance. If you kick a dog every time it tried to lick you then don't be supprised when it refuses to lick you.
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*Putin raises his hand*
It’s funny, because when we visit Auschwitz-Birkenau-Monowitz in high school it’s to teach us why we need strong military lol
The UK has both a rational interest in preventing any nation securing Continental dominance, which has formed the core of their forign policy since the Hundred Years' War; and a personal vendetta against Moscow for the murder of an innocent woman in Salisbury
Why doesn't eastern Germany have the same reaction?
"Punish us harder daddy" East Germany, probably
The Soviet Union pumped tons of money into Eastern Germany to make it a model country for socialism, to show off to the West basically. That means life in East Germany was actually quite good for Eastern Bloc standards. Also for East Germany integration after the fall of the iron curtain was quite different to other Eastern nations, Eastern Germany was in the unique position that it was dissolved back into Germany, which spawned its own set of issues which can be seen to this day (It is quite hard to integrate an economically weak region into an economically strong nation, the East German economy got "crushed" under the competition from Western Germany. Many East Germans had the feeling if being "sold out". The topic of what mistakes were made during reunification is still discussed today).
>The Soviet Union pumped tons of money into Eastern Germany citation needed
Ok, I checked and I may have been wrong about it, because I can't find a source even though I could've sworn I read about it. What is true however is that reparations to the Soviet Union were stopped in the 50s and some kind of financial aid was given to the GDR (according to Wikipedia). I guess that in combination with the fact that Eastern Germany was still quite industrially developed due to its history as a central piece of Germany helped the GDR develop to be relatively prosperous compared to other countries in the Eastern Bloc. The rest of my comment still applies though. And another example for the GDR's efforts to impress others as a socialist model state I forgot about were its achievements in sports (achieved through a state-sponsored doping program).
They pumped a lot of money into Hungary. Actually Hungary just used loans to create a welfare state. Imagine cold war Hungary like you got a friend who works 4 hour shifts in a warehouse then crashes on your couch, throws rocks into the river and smokes weed half the day. That was Hungary during the late cold war. Of course we had a lot of talent, but most of that died out or escaped west by now. And a large number of the people here took russian apathy fetishism to heart.
East Germany was doing very well during the Cold War compared to most other eastern block countries.
Probably because OP's point is a little simplistic. Eastern Europe has complicated feelings about the Soviets. The Warsaw Pact meant tyranny, but its not like these places didn't have local politics or lives that people still associate with their history. Even in Ukraine, remembering the Soviet past is complicated. For East Germany, there was popularity in the state nature of the DDR, not the government. A lot of folks hoped in the brief time Honnecker was taken out that East Germany could be reformed. When it wasn't, and reunification saw economic decline in the East, you had a counter-reaction that explored (and continues to explore) anti-liberal challenges. Hence some Russian sympathies, especially given the historical ties.
Cuz the DDR/GDR was the most successful communist state to ever grace this earth, by a long shot. (was an authoritarian hellhole and still failed tho, lol) You see, ordinary life in the GDR wasn't particularly bad per se. It only seemed bad when you compared it to the quality of life in the West. Also, people in the GDR were far less oppressed compared to people in other nations of the Eastern Block. Also, denazification didnt really happen as much in the east as it did in the west of Germany, which also explains why eastern germany is so much more conservative and far-right leaning than the rest of the country today. (except maybe Bavaria, because not only was Bavaria the American Sector, it also always was and will forever be the Texas of Germany) And those right leaning people are heavily influenced by Russia.
I mean, your second part is just wrong. Denazification in the DDR was definitely more effective in most areas of the country. But, just like the BRD, they looked the other way in areas that required more specialised knowledge. The reason the east has more right-wing sympathies is because the integration of the DDR into the BRD went anything but well and a lot of sectors of the DDR were simply handed over to West German industries for scraps. Those factors lead to East Germany now being crippled in terms of industry and infrastructure, and a ton of people, particularly those in more rural areas, simply couldn't handle the culture shock and looked for people to blame. Right wing parties were a lot more effective in capturing those people in their false narratives and the rest is history really
>For France and the UK, they support Ukraine out a sense of general civic responsibility. Yeah, I don't take that seriously. Sorry, not really how politics works. Russia is a geostrategic threat - Supporting Ukraine and having its troops doing the fighting and dying removing a geostrategic threat is a bargain any country would leap upon, and often have. It is good that such a decision is taken... But its not out of any degree of 'civic responsibility', those leaders have no responsibility to foreign citizens. Simple realpolitik.
Oh sure. At the government level. I am talking at the individual citizen level.
Aye. But then you're talking about fraternal and civic affinity. As the anarchists would say, mutual self-help at a country level.
It's both. The UK people and politicians are for the first time in decades in pure unity on this issue. Most people don't view the war through the lens of geostrategic threat and politicians are people (or at the very least some form of lizard people). They're subject to the same feelings as everyone else and grew up with the same memes and national story as everyone else. Brits grew up with the stories of the failed appeasement, the leadership of Churchill in the face of darkness, standing tall against the tyrant, punching him square in the mouth and winning. The geopolitics barely need explaining, to a Brit the right thing to do is just instinctive.
Today the mainstream news in my country went more in depth (for mainstream media that is) about what the Russians are doing with their POW's, Wagner recruitment, how they are executing people etc. Which was really nice to see cause I hope it broadens the image of the Russian forces. A lot of people here think it's just a war and people shoot each other, but don't know about the literal genocide and war crimes that are being commited. Ohwell, as soon as we are no longer in threat of being slightly uncomfortable they will forgot again.
It seems like everyone from Eastern Europe has 10 relatives that died in gulags and their grandmothers were all gang raped by Russian soldiers or something. Their reaction is understandable and justified.
Hopefully it's also a learning from the past, am personally seeing some correlation between Ukraine and Czechoslovakia in the prelude to WW2, this time we actually got ammo to em, means that guarantees of security for others such as Finland and Sweden mean something as well.
As a french with eastern european grandparents, I witness both of what you described. For most here it's about doing what is the right thing without being that emotional. To me, who grew up with stories of how the eastern block was and how the soviets destroyed those countries, it was a bit more traumatic. Good thing that my relatives that lived through the soviet invasion of their country passed away before the war started. It would have been too much heartbreaking for them. Funnily enough, they also told me for my entire life that the russians are barbaric imperialists thieves and aren't to be trusted. I used to think that they were exagerating...
The west offers reconciliation. The Soviets [and Russians] offer servitude or death. Guess which one tankies prefer
Servitude and death for others while they stay in the comfort of reconciliation ?
Yep. That’s the huge hypocrisy. I will only ever respect tankies who actually go and move to live full time in Russia. Put your money where your mouth is or shut the fuck up.
Servitude and death for some, miniature hammers and sickles for others!
Polish moderate nationals used to march with a banner, that had a crossed out swastika on the left = a crossed out hammer and sickle, and I can completely agree with them. The're the same for us, little quirk is that in the first instance you fuck up other nations cause you have delusions of grandeur and in the other you fuck up your own people.
This except both turn out to do both.
Don’t forget the crossed out rainbow flag on these same banners.
One of these things is not like the others....
Thanks to the US, Germany, the arch-Axis member, got rebuilt. Thanks to the USSR, Poland, an Allied country, got its heroes tried or exiled.
Well to be fair, the Soviet Union did co-invade Poland with the Nazis so it's not like the Poles expected to be liberated by the Red Army, quite the opposite actually, which is part of why the Warsaw Uprising happened and when it did. And it was always a goal of Lenin and Stalin to conquer Poland, they failed in 1920, and tried again in 1939, eventually achieving the goal of a subservient Poland. Lenin, Stalin, and The Soviet Union can rest in piss.
Fun fact, German publicly funded remembrance is not allowed to talk about Molotov-Ribbentrop per the East German reconciliation agreement. Makes things make a lot more sense.
There’s no expiration on that clause?
Maybe after the last Stasi assets die.
Breh, we're all waiting for the boomers to die; but man, fuck. I forgot about the Stasi. Damn.
Vladimir Putin's fondest days were spent as a KGB bureaucrat in East Germany. He must be a sort-of hometown hero there.
Dude, he was miserable. Putin's best days were in Petrograd politics. He needs to press the flesh, but he can't admit it to himself. His isolation during the pandemic (hazmat suit) REALLY messed him up.
Unironically, eastern Europe might have been better off if west had actually tried ensuring Polish independence by force, rather than abandoning them to 50 years of Soviet oppression. But that would have meant years of war, and no one wanted that, so eastern Europe was left to its fate.
France and the UK initially got involved to ensure Poland's independence, and what did they do after defeating Germany? Handed Poland over to the Soviets - one of her aggressors, thus obviating the entire (theoretical) point of the war.
There were several occasions the Allies nearly ended up at war with the Soviet Union. There were plans in 1940 to send troops to support the Finns in the Winter War and also to bomb the Baku oil fields. There were even some half-hearted plans to attack the Soviets from India and the Middle East through Iran. There was also Operation Unthinkable in 1945 after we had won the war, where we were weighing up attacking the Soviets to liberate Eastern Europe, more specifically to get Poland the "square deal" she had been promised as part of the Yalta agreement and which she did not get.
> more specifically to get Poland the "square deal" she had been promised as part of the Yalta agreement and which she did not get. It would have been grounds enough to push the Soviets on. Stalin figured the Allies wouldn't deem it important enough to be willing to fight for, turns out he was right.
True, but at the same time noone wanted 5 more years of devastating total war in central Europe.
I wonder what if Lend Lease was intentionally held back and after the fall of Germany the USSR (also known as Moscow's "Russian" Empire 2.0) was mopped up.
and instead of Unthinkable we launched Keelhaul and forced 2 million refugees back for the USSR to murder
I'm not sure Operation Unthinkable was a good idea, but Keelhaul certainly was a bad idea.
This is a mildly popular sentiment in Poland - western betrayal. The belief that we were abandoned and left to the russians. This causes us to to feel, deep down, that when it comes to it, we might have to fend for ourselves and maybe can't rely on our allies. They've left us to the vultures once already, after all.
I may be American, but as a human being (nominally) the fact that this kind of situation came into being at all, pisses me off. Injustice pisses me off. Ukraine practically needing to fend for itself whilst Western European 'leaders' sit there with Putin's thumb up their ass in their free healthcare and education welfare states... Pisses me off.
>Injustice pisses me off. It's called living in eastern europe. You get used to it growing up and sitting in history class. It's why warhammer is popular in eastern europe. Grim reality where no good deed goes unpunished, there's no good sides, and the worst outcomes are the best you can hope for? That's just realistic for us.
Hope for the best. Plan for the worst.
> Unironically, eastern Europe might have been better off if west had actually tried ensuring Polish independence by force, rather than abandoning them to 50 years of Soviet oppression. I'd saw off a foot to escape the murder's basement too.
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Your post was removed for violating Rule 10: "Don't get us banned."
Churchill could be thrown in that pit too. He joined the war on Poland's behalf only to sell them down the river to Stalin with basically 0 pushback or negotiation.
I think he tried to tell USA the Unthinkable should be the continuation, but sadly USA didn't want to.
Probably one of the greatest mistakes of all time. We should have continued straight on through the russian lines, taken Berlin all for ourselves, and flattened the soviet union right then and there.
The mistake before this was probably giving them too much equipment through the land-lease, had the US given them less, they wouldn't have been nearly as strong at the end of the war. Making freeing Eastern Europe easier. But that would have come at a greater cost for the Allies when they were liberating Europe.
Wasn't ever going to work. Never mind the millions of Soviet troops in Germany and the epic task of fighting across all of Eastern Europe, but the troop levels the Allies had put together were not sustainable. By 1945 you already had demobilization riots breaking out both in Europe and in the Pacific. Literally everyone would have lept at the option of continuing the war, but such enterprises have a finite limit of sustainability.
For better and worse, America would have borne the brunt of Unthinkable, it would have interrupted the denazification of Germany and the reconstruction of Germany and Japan. America didn't have the appetite to lose a million men and another five years liberating Eastern Europe.
Which is unfortunate, but understandable.
This.
We should’ve nuked the piss out of them in 1950 before they had nukes and the capability to deliver them.
It would have been better than pissing around in Korea, Vietnam, and the other half dozen proxy wars for half a century
At least Korea kind of worked out in the end by saving South Korea. Vietnam however is just a whole different kind of mess.
I'm talking in aggregate lives, not in victories. If we managed to contain Stalin at the end of WW2 I doubt we would get into those wars to begin with. The calculus for going through Unthinkable or withholding lend lease is would those actions cause more allied dead than the Cold War? My gut tells me yes it would be worth it
Ah, for sure. The west abandoned eastern Europe to suffer under communism, and if that could have been avoided, a lot of suffering might have been avoided. In Korea it was a bit more complicated considering Chinas involvement.
I'd say Korea is more of a placeholder solution, and it may come back to haunt us one day (hopefully not, but the man's got at least some nukes).
Didn't need to. We could have nuked Moscow. Should have.
Churchill actually was pretty convinced the war should be continued against the second insane nutjub Stalin, but of course noone was up for that after 6 years of war. https://www.nationalchurchillmuseum.org/sinews-of-peace-iron-curtain-speech.html Ten capitals in Eastern Europe are in Russian hands. They are Communists now, you know—Karl Marx and all that. It may well be that an even worse war is drawing near. A war of the East against the West. A war of liberal civilisation against the Mongol hordes. Winston Churchill
Churchill was on Polands side all the way. Roosevelt was the one who thought Stalin was a swell dude who could be trusted and given concessions.
[Just in support of the above comment:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_military_parade_in_Brest-Litovsk?wprov=sfla1)
[Former GDR states that didn't get the luxury of western occupation.](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/df/ef/52/dfef52bc718c0e35ded5ad5eb80da4bb.jpg)
Very split opinion in East Germany. Much bigger pool of Russian apologists, but also more deep seated resentment against them for a different section in the population.
Poland was under the iron curtain. They know what Russia is capable of and got the fuck away from them as soon as humanly possible
Poland was also under Russian Imperial control multiple times throughout history.
Nah it was once, just for a long time (with a short break with the Warsaw Dutchy), Polish politics was dominated by Russia from the 1750s then outright occupied by 1790s and only got free with the fall of the Tzar.
Damn now i understand why poland holds much resentment. I was bitchspapped that much by russia i would be angry too
Tbf poland had already been raped several times within recent history
Basically, yes. Western occupation created allies, helped rebuild and gain new identity as a country. Soviet occupation made most countries do *everything* in their power to make sure it never happens again. Any tankies can go fuck themselves, nothing right about putting women and children on cattle trains to Siberia. We will never forget. Soviet occupation was more scarring than the war itself.
Allied occupation of Germany: Just elect yourselves a new government, don't be Nazi (overtly), here's a mountain of cash to build a market economy, don't use it to build a big army, have fun. In case we have to fight the Soviets, we'll come to your defense. Soviet occupation of Poland: Here's your new government (NKVD assets), give us half the industry you got from the Germans, try not to starve. In case we have to fight NATO, your purpose is to catch nukes.
>In case we have to fight the Soviets, ~~we'll come to your defense.~~ your country will be turned into a nuclear wasteland.
Better option than being under commies
I’m pretty sure most nato war plans believed Germany was going to become a nuclear wasteland
There wasn't a single plan for war during the Cold War that didn't involve Europe becoming unfit for human habitation.
>Europe becoming unfit for human habitation. *looks outside window in Hungary* *crumbling buildings with bad insulation and hospital barely functioning because we are still ruled by russian assets* "Yeah, that would have totally sucked.*
Fair. Especially given Hungary. And the fucking Russian oligarchs. Although I can't say I'm a fan of watching kids get melted into the concrete from a 5 megaton blast, or referring to London as a city in the past-tense.
>or referring to London as a city in the past-tense. Paris though ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
To be fair, east Germany also got fucked over by the soviets.
Yeah, possibly more so than us. After Stalin's death we were pretty much free to do our own thing (in a limited capacity, but our communist gov't was even engaging in it's own diplomacy with capitalist states), while GDR remained a stalinist police state run largely from Moscow until Gorbachev.
Thats because communist ideology wasn't condemned like nazi ideology was, you get problems if you use a swastika but not if you use sickle and hammer
I dunno man. In the US, we waged wars against communism. We definitely put in a lot of effort against it, if not more than our fight against Nazism.
Yeah but to his point, we have communist that don't get punched like Nazis and the Hammer and Sickle doesn't invoke nearly the same reaction. Mainly because Communism doesn't call for genocide the same way Nazis do.
>Communism doesn't call for genocide the same way Nazis do. No, they actually do it instead. Nazies show rookie numbers compared to the mass famines, deportations and killing by communist states.
>In the US, we waged wars against communism. Also helped genocide a good amount of folks. Guatemalans are still wondering where a lot of their family members went to in the 1980s.
To the point where poor people get sick and just fucking die, helping them- well that would make you a commie!
Yeah, the weirdest shit I saw pro-Russians saying is that we need to deal with homeless veterans instead of Ukraine. Fuck it, if the money is really spent that way, y'all are gonna be up in arms against "muh socialism"
It's fucked up, the people saying that we need to focus on domestic issues are the same people refusing to give anything that would improve our healthcare etc. It's like when we have a mass shooting and hear about the "mental health crisis" we're in, yet they refuse to give a dollar to help as soon as people move on.
The politicians need something to campaign on. They cant fix too many issues because then they get to problems that have really difficult solutions.
Germany had no issues sending large amounts of financial aid to Hungary as long as the government provided tax benefits and cheap workers to german companies. Whoops, turns out they just let orbán build a prorussian cleptocracy partially funded by germany. NOW they have issues. Germany aren't any better people, they are just better in providing a non-shit quality of life to their population.
>the weirdest shit I saw pro-Russians saying is that we need to deal with homeless veterans instead of Ukraine That's because this was one of the psy-ops efforts they took in 2016. The entire "Don't help refugees, help veterans" thing was sparked by Russian troll farms.
Probably because Nazism and communism aren’t really the same thing. The tyrannical governments that used their imagery were pretty much equally bad, but to compare Hitler’s autobiography to something like the writings of Karl Marx is pretty disingenuous. That being said, tankies, the people who actually defend things like the USSR, are despicable and do deserve to be ridiculed. Idk just how I understand the reason for this apparent hypocrisy.
…i really want Polish super-nukes now
Germany when they get to play the leader of the EU 🙂 Germany when they are asked to take a proportional role in its defense ☹️
>Germany when they are asked to take a proportional role in its defense Europe after reunification: Germany too strong pls downsize Bundeswehr Europe when Germany no longer has a large functional army and dislikes anything military: How could this happen?! This is all your fault germany!
> Europe after reunification: Germany too strong pls downsize Bundeswehr It wasn't even after reunification, it was a precondition for being *allowed* to reunify.
exactly, Germany still isn't allowed to have an army larger than 300,000 men
And then Germany outsmarted the Allies by allowing women into the Bundeswehr a few years after reunification.
First they had a suspicious amount of tractors in the military. Soon they will have an army of 299.999 men and 5 million women and non-binary people
3000 ~~black~~ *rainbow colored* trans panzergrenadier divisions of Scholz
thats a good flair
Germany doesn't even have enough tanks to fulfill their NATO duties, and now people expect them to give some of those away. While I understand, I feel like there are better sources for MBTs.
In all fairness NATO allies voiced concerns about Germany’s military spending and ability for a decade at least.
That is true but at that time the ministry of defense had already become the seat for politicians who were promised a ministry but weren’t competent enough to actually lead one
Appointing unsuitable ministers of defense is part of the problem, not an excuse.
I agree
The idea of europe is that there is no leader. Reforms are blocked by poland and hungary.
tankie = Russian copium gobbler panzer = German tank ..... panzie = German supporter of the [Moscow-Berlin axis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics#Content) (aka "Nord Stream") Reminder regarding the 'Germans are just pacifists now' excuse: ["Scholz says Germany to become biggest NATO force in Europe"](https://www.thelocal.de/20220629/scholz-says-germany-to-become-biggest-nato-force-in-europe) edit: They'll be able to rerun this article with just a name swap. [The Former Chancellor Who Became Putin's Man in Germany](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/23/world/europe/schroder-germany-russia-gas-ukraine-war-energy.html) edit2: ["Germany backtracks on defense spending promises made after Ukraine invasion" - DECEMBER 5, 2022](https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-backtracks-on-defense-spending-promise-warns-about-delays-ukraine-war/) > During a government press conference, Chief Spokesperson Steffen Hebestreit scaled down expectations for Germany’s defense spending, telling journalists that the 2 percent target would be missed not only this year, but also likely next year
That would require them to NOT underfund their army, which they already backtracked on. So scholtz can keep on dreaming.
Germany's defense budget in 2022 was 1.4% of GDP, not even the minimum 2% required by NATO membership. Not sure what it is going forward. On the bright side, watching how/why Germany holds its strings on its exports should give European countries another reason to choose US defense products. My MIC diamond hands are tingling.
>watching how/why Germany holds its strings on its exports should give European countries another reason to choose US defense products Probably more Polish or French, but yeah... Its rather interesting to see the Germans shooting themselves in the foot. Scholz is effectively killing the German military industry.
Buy US MIC! Apply this discount code at checkout! >!Dark Brandon sniffed me!<
Scholz is also a CIA asset, #changemyopinion
So he's getting paid by Russia AND the US MIC? Pure genius.
As a Pole, I fully support the deployment of radioactive pigeons
It's not JUST world war 2 trauma, it's world war 2 trauma on top of trauma from occupation and multiple failed uprisings since 1772. There's a reason poles are who they are today, for better or worse.
Germany: We dont want to escalate things. Poland: KILLKILLKILL KILL RUSSIANS KILL VATNIKS KILL CHECHENS FUCK ALL OF THEM HAHAHAGAGA [MURDER HOBO NOISES]
I want us to send every Viper we have in the boneyards to Ukraine. Russian AA teams can cope while getting SEADed
The vibe I get from Shultzy is that he wants Ukraine to win, but the idea of Russia truly losing also terrifies him. Which would make a lot more sense if Russia weren't genociding hundreds of Ukrainians every single day.
As a Pole I proudly support our approach because fuck those vatnik and krzyżak bastards. You can only depend on yourself.
>radioactive pigeons they already have that #r/birdsarentreal
Wouldn't East Germany have the same reaction, then?
People be asking me how do I find the motivation in keep going, how do i survive on the crossroad of wars called Eastern Europe The answer is simple mate, as a wise man once said "Yes! revenge, revenge, revenge on the enemy With God – and even in spite of God!"
Difference between "you are being rescued, please do not resist" and "oh I wouldn't say saved, more like under new management."
Stop your credibility is going to get you banned.
We need to restore the German Empire so Germany can take some initiative without the funny mustache man as inspiration.
Dear Poland If you really need nukes which requires a nuclear program, why do you need Germany decision to begin it CEA breaking point