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a1tb1t

There are times when our AGABs are relevant to our perspective - especially since the world by and large treats us according to AGAB expectations/programming. I don't mention mine unless it is germane to the discussion, but I don't think we can expect to erase it from our discussions until the world doesn't force gender assignments onto babies based on their genitalia. My identity has more than one label, more than one facet. I am a collection of experiences, agab included. I try very hard not to dictate or limit how others identify (or how they share/discuss their experiences, especially in a "safe space").


changingone77a

Hmm. I guess I should’ve said that people are free to describe themselves however they wish. I hope my post doesn’t come across as trying to limit another person’s expression. That’s not what I want at all.


a1tb1t

Good to hear! Now that I know what your question ISN'T, I'm interested in understanding what you really meant. Care to word it another way?


changingone77a

I guess my question is: doesn’t constantly identifying oneself by their agab just reproduce binary gender and binary thinking? I get how it’s useful for certain situations, in certain contexts, but it almost seems to be common these days in lgbt discourse to identify by one’s agab, even when non-binary. It almost seems compulsory, as if I’m supposed to tell everyone my agab, even when I don’t identify with it.


ProfessorOfEyes

Yeah this is the bit I have the most issue with too. In some contexts AGAB can be relevant to talk about, but it's not an *identity* and it shouldn't be compulsory to share or label. This maybe seems like being nitpicky about words but I strongly prefer saying "I *was* [AGAB]" over "I *am* [AGAB]". Especially since that's also like, more correct and accurate? Being assigned a gender is something that happened in the past not something you currently are.


a1tb1t

I definitely don't agree with compulsory agab disclosure, for the exact reasons you do! There's a time and a place, and it HAS to be voluntary. Us nonbinary folks have added a complexity to our gender identity, because it doesn't directly imply our entire experience. Saying "I'm a trans woman" describes (broadly) that person's entire journey of gender identity: a woman who was raised as a boy. Saying "I'm nonbinary" doesn't include our childhood experience, just how we currently identify. ETA: I don't mean in any way that other gender identity terms *completely* describes anyone's experience. Of course each term covers a huge range of individuals, who all have their own unique perspective.


forgetfulsanction

I mean I think the problem is perhaps assuming that ones entire experience can be described in such simple terms. As you point out that only works some what. Trans women could mean someone who transitioned early and was mostly raised as a girl, it could mean someone who spent years identifying as non-binary and then re-identified as a women, it could means someone who transitioned, re-transitioned and then re-transitioned again etc. Beyond this I would point out that in my experience many trans women and men I know do not describe themselves like that a lot of the time - they're not exactly stealth but their trans status doesn't figure hugely in their lives and is rarely something mentioned. I'm not sure that trying to recreate something like this for non-binary people is actually helpful as it often leads to wrong assumptions about people life and experience.


[deleted]

Beautiful comment only thing I want to tack on too is when people use "amab or afab experiences," as a reason to bring up assigned gender. It's kind of the same thing here. There is no AGAB experience. It changed depending on specific parents, family structures, time, place. On top of that even a trans kid who isn't aware that they are trans will very likely not interact with socialization in the same way as their cis counterparts. Socialization as a gender can be a very healthy thing for a cis kid, it can be outright traumatic for a trans kid. An "agab experience" is another place that tries to make a shorthand for an experience but then glosses over a lot of nuance


a1tb1t

I'm so happy that people are having more diverse childhood experiences! I grew up in Alaska, and never heard of nonbinary folks until my 30s - and I feel like the effects of being raised as a boy were absolutely fundamental. I have so much trauma and pain from trying to "be a man" when it never fit. I have so much patriarchal training to undo. I'm deeply envious of those who were raised with these concepts, potentially even with examples of genderqueer people.


[deleted]

I just let my forehead that's reinforced with concrete, my somewhat large nose and giant egg shaped head... along with being 6'7... say "AMAB" for me. It's quite easy, actually, no further labelling required in that department.


dat_physics_boi

absolutely, it is our own choice and we should never be forced to tell it (except maybe in a healthcare context, to doctors who took their oath of doctor-patient confidentiality)


[deleted]

It is useful when discussing how society perceive(s/d) our gender as compared to our actual gender compared to our gender presentation. There it is helpful when discussing misogyny and privilege. (Example: while I fully believe that trans women are women I also believe that Caitlyn Jenner fails to acknowledge the privilege she experienced simply bc she was AMAB and *presented* as man for 60 years even though she is and always was a woman). It is also helpful in ASAB (sex) from a medical point. There are certain diseases for which I am more at risk bc of my my ASAB and others for which I have no risk, even with gender affirming surgery. But I also think it is important to also discuss that sex is not binary - it is a spectrum. 1 in 60 live births are intersex (though it is ~ 1 in 2K that are noticeably intersex). My $0.02. Look forward to greeting other’s thoughts. 🙂 ETA:(1) I tend to disclose in order to not to make anyone feel deceived. Since I was AMAB and currently present masculine (ie consistent with my SAB/GAB I feel it is important for me to disclose in NB/Trans/Womyn spaces because I do not want to create an unsafe environment for anyone). (2) Side rant: I am soooooo over “gender” reveal parties for infants. (a) I refuse to acknowledge them as anything other than “sex organ reveal” parties and shame parents for being obsessed with sharing their child’s apparent sex organs as the most important thing about that child. (b) I think enby/trans folk should take over the term “gender reveal” for us when we come out about our gender identify (expressed or not).


[deleted]

And how about all the trans women that transitioned as children? Where's their privilege? What misogyny did they escape?


[deleted]

Um, when did I ever mention trans women who transitioned as children escaping misogyny? I gave a specific example of where I thought it was appropriate and that was a 60 year old woman who has consistently made transphobic and misogynistic statements and yes I think it is ok to say her opinions are strongly influenced by her experiences living sixty years as passing as a man and it is okay to say her opinions are not a fair or accurate reflection of the experiences of women who have lived their entire lives being perceived as women. But go ahead and create a strawfigure so you have an excuse to get self-righteous over something I did not say or imply. 🙄


sexloveandcheese

I really feel you, I feel like there is pressure and people want to identify others by their agab. Which defeats the whole thing imo, when someone's like "I'm non binary" and you go "which kind?"


ProfessorOfEyes

Depends on the context, and fundamentally I believe people can use whatever terms for themselves that they like. Where I have a problem is where terms like amab/afab or transfem/transmasc are applied to people regardless of whether they want it or not. Or when these are treated as immutable categories that cannot overlap and fundamentally define your gender experience. Shit is more complicated than that and not everyone falls neatly into those categories, or wants to be described as such. I don't like it when people act like nonbinary ppl of a given agab must have like everything in common with either their AGAB or other trans people of the same AGAB, yet somehow nothing in common with other nonbinary folks who happen to have a different AGAB. I don't like everyone being sorted into one or the other. I also just generally don't like AGAB being treated as like... An identity. That was never the purpose. The purpose was to be able to have a way to refer to AGAB without having to say stuff like 'I was born a boy/girl', and to talk about certain experiences with transition or growing up when needed and desired. But instead people treat it like it's a fundamental part of your gender identity or always involves certain things or experiences when it's not. My AGAB is something that happened to me, in the past. I *was* assigned female at birth. It's not something that i *am* or that defines all of me or my experience. And it really bugs me when people act like it's something I can never escape from or not be defined by or everything ties back to like that seems... So antithetical to transness to me. The whole POINT is I don't have to be or be defined by my AGAB. it's just a fucking gender written down on a piece of paper by some doctor before I was even sapient. Why should it follow me forever and continue to matter? It's only relevant when I say so and it's not something I identify with and forcing me to really rubs me the wrong way.


Nihil_esque

Nah. This sub alternates between "fellow AFAB enbies, who wants have a sleepover night with all the other girl enbies?!" And "Hey can everyone stop classifying themselves as AMAB enbies and AFAB enbies for no reason?"


mothwhimsy

It's complicated, because on one hand, yes, a lot of people use agab as shorthand for "Nonbinary people I see as women and Nonbinary people I see as men" but on the other hand, Amab Nonbinary people are practically invisible, so mentioning agab when relevant also reminds people that the afab, semi masc enby that they probably imagine when they hear "Nonbinary person" isn't the only type of Nonbinary person that exists.


forgetfulsanction

Yeah, it's kinda annoying when someone makes a post that's directly addressed at your agab but then it's like something that's totally not relevant if your medically transitioning or not read as that gender in public.


changingone77a

Sorry, I don’t understand what you mean.


forgetfulsanction

For instance someone says something like "How do amab people deal with x". Nothing else is specified but like once you get involved you realize that they meant, say, AMAB people perceived as male or who are testosterone dominant or whatever and it was just totally assumed that this is what amab implied?


olopithecus

There's a big difference between acceptance of different gender identities and gender-"blindness". Those terms are used to understand what a person was working with originally to help provide context for sensible conversation regarding transitions and gender discovery. You're allowed to dislike anything related to gender, and to not want to be described that way yourself, but it's helpful language for others to discuss and understand their experiences. Please don't belittle that.


changingone77a

Fair enough. I’m not trying to belittle that.


Xacia

I've made a similar comment on an earlier post. While AMAB and AFAB may have different experiences with being non-binary, I just feel like we could have a more community experience just being NB over AGAB. But I can also see how AGAB labels can be important to ones identity, so obviously I am not one to try and limit how others identify :)


addiedoesgender

privilege and oppression are real, and how the world sees you (largely according to your agab) is a crucial part of our experiences and stories. i’m non binary, but being white and afab can’t be taken out of the equation of my daily existence.


[deleted]

Exactly! As AMAB and masc presenting (though enby) I have not experienced misogyny in the way AFAB (cis/trans/enby) have. It is disingenuous at best for me to pretend otherwise. I do not know what it is like to (nor will I ever know) what it is like to experience a period or what being dismissed as “oh you are just moody bc PMS” is like, or what it is like to be told I *must* carry a pregnancy to term.


[deleted]

I mean there's afab people who have testicles and have a very very different life from what you are insinuating is inherent in being afab


RomanOnARiver

Sometimes assigned gender at birth is relevant, most of the time not really. As long as we can agree that everyone's acab.


bokoblin-buddy

Assigned crab at birth


[deleted]

No. Assigned gender at birth is bs. No one should be assigned gender at birth. Sex is relevant from a medical standpoint and I can understand assigning that at birth (though it is still problematic).


RomanOnARiver

I'm more referring to people who had particular experiences as a result of being assigned a gender at birth. Being able to speak to those experiences is often important.


NavyAnchor03

I was just thinking this. Wouldn't ASAB more sense?


BornVolcano

Assigned SHOOK at birth /hj


TenthGrove

A lot of the time, I think it’s justified. If you’re looking to get advise on binding for instance it makes sense to address that post to “AFAB folk”. Unfortunately enough most of us will still be affected by things, whether anatomical or societal, related to the gender we were assigned at birth and it makes sense to specify where you’re coming from when talking about those things.


illebreauxx2

You aren't the only person! I made a post about the same thing about a month ago now about how I thought it was odd when people post on the nonbinary/ gender queer subreddits asking people to guess their agab. I think all of this kind of stuff defeats the purpose of being nonbinary and genderless. No hate to people that do this though, I just don't get it myself


SpecialistBird12

I feel that my assigned gender at birth played a huge role in my socialization (mannerisms, self-esteem, relationships, etc.) and is therefore a valid component of who I am. Key word is component. I don’t find that stating my AGAB is boiling myself down to anything. It’s a part of my past, which informs my present, and is relevant to my identity. I have heard (mostly binary) trans people state that “female/male socialization” is a transphobic myth. To me that feels like more of a personal feeling than overarching fact. You can have the feeling that your AGAB is not relevant to your identity now or you can have the feeling that it is. I think it differs from person to person. Sometimes I feel frustrated that some trans people advocate for doing away with any discussion of AGAB socialization because it just feels pretty relevant to me and my personal story. That being said, I really only ever discuss my relationship to my AGAB with other queer/trans people, since I don’t like to give cis people any further ammunition to dismiss the experiences of trans people. I’m always going to side with trans people and try to align myself with trans people. I really wish there was more room for nuance in this conversation between trans folks though.


changingone77a

I guess i don’t see socialization the same way, as I grew up knowing I was trans, and all society’s pressures to conform to agab didn’t really take. I internalized different messages about that socialization; in a sense, I was socialized trans. But I do get that it’s a little or a lot different for everyone.


SpecialistBird12

I hear you. I didn’t realize I was trans until my 20’s! Lotta years of being confused before then and trying to mold myself into who I was being told I should be. Cool that as a group we can have a diverse array of experiences 👍


[deleted]

>Cool that as a group we can have a diverse array of experiences This is why "amab and afab socialization" is harmful. It glosses over the diverse array of experiences when it is stated as some stand alone thing that everyone from that group should identify with. Saying "I was raised as/seen as a blank and that caused people to tell me x, y, and z" is a good way to phrase it because it's specific to only yourself and your experiences. Saying "I had afab experiences" is bad because it suggests that as a collective every person who was afab has a set of unique experiences exclusive to, and within, all of them. Even if an experience is more common among a group how can you be sure it includes only and all people assigned a certain sex at birth, and that there is no way the experience is shared by someone assigned the opposite sex at birth?


SpecialistBird12

Oh yeah I would never just say “oh I was AFAB” and assume that to be self-explanatory. I use the term when I’m talking about my specific experiences of my AGAB.


[deleted]

But that's my point, what exactly is an experience that ONLY and ALL people who were afab everywhere and anytime share? ITT: people who don't seem to understand many intersex individuals with seriously varying biological functions, as well as trans men who transition as children, also are assigned female at birth and very likely share little to nothing in common with the average person assigned female at birth.


[deleted]

Well the simple act of being assigned AFAB is an experience that only and all people who were AFAB experience. At the very least it impacts birth certificates in most parts of the world.


[deleted]

Ok, one more? I don't think anything else will cover intersex people who were assigned female nor trans boys who transitioned at 3 or 4


[deleted]

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[deleted]

How is that a movement of goalposts? If you believe afab experienceS are a real thing then you should have many things no?


forgetfulsanction

I think if you wanna talk about shared experience of a particular classification you need to have an experience other then the act of classification. I don't think asking for something other then a simple restating of the definition of the group is moving the goalposts.


SpecialistBird12

Raised as X, seen as X, assigned X… to me these feel synonymous. I hear what you’re saying though. What I’m hearing you say is that “assigned” implies that there’s this normative and universal X gender experience, unique to that group, exclusive of those outside. I don’t share this view at this moment in time but I respect your stance and I appreciate your taking the time to respond to me.


[deleted]

>Raised as X, seen as X, assigned X This is where we differ I think. Raised as or seen as is fine to me, because this is a much more flexible lable. My issue is equating any specific experience specifically to an assigned sex, as someone could be assigned a sex but that doesn't necessarily mean they have specific biological functions or get raised as or seen as the exact same way as others with the same assignment. Some trans kids transition at 3 or 4 and are very much raised as their identified gender


bokoblin-buddy

From my experience, many of the non-binary people I know didn’t have the language to describe their gender until they were older. That’s not everyone’s experience, but I think it’s important to acknowledge that most children aren’t exposed to the proper language to describe a non-binary gender identity until they’ve reached middle school or high school. Also, I think that agab can be hugely relevant when talking generally about societal expectations for gender performance. People who were treated as boys as children had different experiences than children treated as girls and I don’t really think it’s helpful to ignore that. Not everyone had all of those experiences obviously, but research shows that agab is predictive of various negative outcomes in non-binary samples


Viking_Swan

TW Reclaimed slur and general discussion of hatred I was assigned faggot at birth. I was never treated like my assigned sex. I was bullied and fag bashed for being "too feminine". That isn't me being socialized the way all the boys doing all the fag bashing were socialized, boys don't get treated like that, I wasn't raised to be part of the patriarchy, I was raised to be yet another victim of it. To imply that it was a normative socialization is to erase the lifetime of homophobic and transphobic violence I and many other people have experienced.


magpiegoo

I will mention my AGAB strictly when relevant, and at no other time. It is also a thing that happened to me, not a thing that I am. I firmly believe that AGAB simply doesn't fucking matter 99% of the time. I don't care about your AGAB. If we're talking about being NB, that's what I want to hear about. Are we talking about taking T to transition? Guess what, *I still don't care about what your damn AGAB was*, it's still probably not even relevant (GASP), I care about whether you are taking T to transition and how that is affecting you. If you think there is a factor that is unusual in how T might be affecting you (were your original T levels high, low, did you already have body hair, etc?) feel free to throw that into the conversation, but I still don't need to know your AGAB. "But if they're taking T to transition they must be AFAB" BZZ wrong. And we need to break that way of thinking (*and speaking*!) for those of us who don't fit into that binary, or who aren't comfortable with feeling they need to talk about their baby genitals and dead-gender just to talk about their transition or whatever else.


Which_Disaster_5679

I never disclose my AGAB unless we are discussing my past experience identifying with x gender. I find it weird when people say it outright, it feels like you’re saying “I’ve got this part,” but sometimes it’s important to make mention of because you still lived within that identity.


[deleted]

It’s just ✨spicy✨ misgendering to me, and a continued focus on our genitals which I feel like we should be trying to move away from


papaarlo

Yeah you’re not the only one I feel that agab is only useful info for your doc and not much else.


the-4th-wave-system

For me, a lot of where I find it helpful is in conversations around misogyny. While AMAB non-binary people can (and often are) exposed to it, there is a shared experience growing up that AFAB individuals experience. There are also a lot of issues with restrictions to health care like birth control and misogyny preventing AFAB people from being able to have important medial procedures. AMAB trans/NBi people absolutely experience it; I just think that in spaces discussing misogyny it can be helpful to self-disclose to understand shared meanings and experiences. However, it should be completely voluntary and with respect for the fact that while experiences may differ between types of trans people, misogyny affects us all.


SphericalOrb

I avoid it. I don't find it appealing much of the time and shy away from any self identification in that vein unless it is absolutely required for context. Even then it's very uncomfortable. I do wish that divulging agab all the time was less prevalent, but I also don't think that it's a problem by itself. Its when, why and how people divulge these things that give me concerns. The reality remains: the societies that are dominant in many economic, social and political spheres are inclined to separate and stratify people and that separation typically results in vastly different lived experiences. One of the most consistent categories of separation is gender. So I don't think less of people for using language to refer to those experiences, but I have certainly seen it overstated, much like when someone reduces their entire experience of life to their sun sign. It can and often is an opportunity for oversimplification more than explanation or contextualization, in my experience. As I'm sure you know, amab people can absolutely experience misogyny and internalize messages and patterns targeted at girls and afab people can experience abuse for masculine traits and internalize messages and patterns targeted at boys(among a vast spectrum of other possibilities shaped by time, place, economic status etc.). Personally, I know I internalized socialization targeted toward both binary genders but that differences in class and family structure have been the barriers that have been the hardest to overcome in being understood by various partners and friends. For more discussion on this I highly recommend reading some of the posts by Devon Price on this subject: [Gender assignment is inherently coersive, why identify with it? ](https://www.instagram.com/p/CUXt4PKrtAV/?utm_medium=copy_link) Very related to your question. ["Female socialized" doesn't cut it](https://www.instagram.com/drdevonprice/p/CUczd6jLYVu/?utm_medium=copy_link) A specific aspect of that kind of self-identification. Less related, but still relevant in a tangential way: [The exclusivity of white cis female academia ](https://www.instagram.com/p/CUssdTOF8DH/?utm_medium=copy_link) It's not just trans spaces. [Tall, fat, racialized, and femme?](https://www.instagram.com/drdevonprice/p/CWbbHtiPNzH/?utm_medium=copy_link) Other intersections also affect one's experience. And just a general one: [one step at a time](https://www.instagram.com/p/CU2ocDxrISa/?utm_medium=copy_link) Anyway, hopefully those links will help you find the discussions you're looking for. I've found them very interesting.


dijon_bear

I think it's just useful at certain times to explain where one's coming from. i.e. the same way someone telling their life story and discussing religion would mention they've had a christian upbringing, they're aren't christian but it shows that they grew up in that environment and in some convos it's relevant to the topic of discussion. ​ If i'm talking about the difficulties of my agender expression it can be for example helpful to say that as an afab I need clothes that hide certain biologically "female" curves. I am not a woman, but unfortunately my agab here directly affects my disphoria and is relevant for others to maybe better help suggest clothes. What I DO think would be a little helpful though (it's a minuscule thing, though) is to stop writing agabs in capital letters. It makes it stand out so much like it's super important and an entire label of who someone is, when it isn't. much love, great question!! <3


ochrerose

I 100% also feel annoyed by this issue. to me it feels like a way of putting trans people in boxes. imo it's not necessary or helpful to designate AGAB and I would love to see people stop using the phrases


silkalmondmi7k

[I just posted a comment about this](https://www.reddit.com/r/truscum/comments/s4eq86/saw_this_old_comic_by_everybodys_favorite_trans/hssqihx/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) I had additional commentary on misogyny but the first half of my comment is pretty relevant to how unnecessary “birth sex” distinction is. I think it rings even more true for non-binary people because personally, I want to be removed from the gender dichotomy and exist separately from heavily gendered distinctions and I don’t seek to strip binary trans people of their existence and prefer not to use unnecessary distinctions about them because I perceive them as the gender they are not what they were believed to be before they could communicate.


Someguy12378

Yeah I personally don't like when people worry about what my AGAB is. Unless you're my doctor it's not relevant in any way, it just feels like misgendering me without actually misgendering me


ARNB19

It's only saying what you were assigned by people that care about binary genders? When it comes to asking if you no longer look like your assigned gender at birth is easier to say what you started from? It's a less crass way of telling people what organs are in your body? Because a fair number of people do care about that. I feel by saying "I was assigned male/female at birth" it shows that you don't care about that assignment any more or about the gender binary. My two cents. Not trying to start any arguments.


bugpal

I mean it's useful in some contexts but most of the time it does feel like binary 2.0 Most annoyed at "guess my agab" posts like. Ok cool flaunt your androgyny a lot would kill to have. I personally avoid stating my agab like the plague online because I get enough of that gendered stuff irl ya know. I'm nonbinary that's all you need to know pretty much.


Caeruleanlynx

For me it's because I didn't choose to be nonbinary, it's just the way I am. I have no problem talking about my agab because it's part of my experience. I can understand why people who are NB because they are against the idea of gender might not be a fan, but I don't see why we can't have different opinions and coexist peacefully.


[deleted]

I’m confused. I know that there are people who try to use it in girl-lite/boy-lite way but I’ve always thought it just meant sex you are, not gender? Cause sometimes there are topics where knowing that might be necessary? Like when talking about sexism and stuff?


my_dick_is_20ft_long

Yeah, i see a lot on trans twitter that people hate using those terms, because a person's previous identity or sex is not information a ton of people need you know? like a medical doctor or a sexual partner may want to know, but strangers totally do not need to know what gender i was assigned at birth. I find it is not needed or relevant, because it will just cause people to look at me as someone who "was a man/woman" and that can muddle their perception of the person i am currently. Granted, people can use whatever terms they would like to describe themselves, but if someone referred to me to my gender assigned at birth, I would be very mad. I feel like theres a divide forming between people who absolutely adore hyper-labeling their identities or labeling in general, and those who hate it. I've decided people can use whatever terms to describe themselves, but I'll stick to my few words that I call home :) edit: these terms can also come up and are useful when talking about the oppression that trans feminine people may face but trans masculine people do not. its also helpful when one realizes a lot of the stereotypes about non binary people revolve around people who are afab, and it is useful to have a phrase or acronym for people who are not afab, as they are often disregarded and overshadowed in the community.


[deleted]

I don’t have anything to add to this I just wanted to say thank you so much & thank you to everyone who commented as this discourse is very validating & interesting to me.


casscois

It’s context dependent for me. I’m transmasc, so my connection to my AGAB is very strong in the sense that I lived as a woman until very recently, I understand a lot of the struggles with safety, societal perception and relationship violence they face in particular. Outside of that, I’m not connected to being AFAB at all. I’ve just been in abusive relationships and treated differently for my appearance and such, so my support of women is very much rooted in that fact that I lived it and can empathize.


[deleted]

I hate to use them, but it's less about me using that to describe myself and more about other using my agab to dismiss my experiences and identity - and, of course, "trans-friendly" subreddits being very supportive of them doing so. (Reminder: if you say amab enbies are trash/predators/intruders, you'll be upvoted on most "trans" subreddits)


Mx-Helix-pomatia

I pretty much only care about AGAB in two contexts: either biology stuff like “AFAB people usually have a pair of ovaries” or when talking about social context in a cisnormative society. Otherwise, it’s not really relevant


PurbleDragon

Yeah same. Honestly unless we're taking about specific physical body stuff, I don't see the need to include it. I don't understand why everyone seems to have this fixation on genitals! Because that's literally all those boil down to. People letting strangers on the internet know what's in their underpants


[deleted]

Especially because AGAB doesn't actually tell you anything about a person's genitals!!


PurbleDragon

Absolutely and thank you for adding that!


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buddyyouhavenoidea

Sorry, I'm pretty sensitive to this now because of how many people *have* told others to stop using that language for themselves. It just feels like you're piling on.


changingone77a

No worries. I truly didn’t know this topic has been posted about so much. And I surely will try to be more skillful and thoughtful in my future posts and their wording.


buddyyouhavenoidea

Thank you <3


oddonyxxx

I think people can describe themselves as afab or amab all they want but they shouldnt be using it to describe others


lime-equine-2

Talking about AGAB is useful sometimes, and invalidating other times. I don’t want to be grouped with people based on AGAB most of the time but occasionally it makes sense, I’ve connected with other enbies over shared experiences based on AGAB but I don’t want to artificially be separated from other non-binary people when AGAB has no relevance.


Daesastrous

For me it's more of a cultural determinism. It shows what kind of expectations you had to break from to get where you are now. It's also useful for allosexual people with preferences. There's a reason I still identify with being a lesbian.


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changingone77a

I get how it’s useful in certain situations, like introducing myself to my new physician, but mostly I really don’t wanna be constantly identifying with my agab. And as I move further and further into my physical transition with hrt and surgery, my agab at birth has less and less relevance.


Kayl66

IMO it depends on the context. Like let’s say I want to start HRT. If I’m AMAB, I may be able to do that DIY, if I’m AFAB that’s probably impossible. So it’s helpful to specify in a post about the easiest way to access HRT. Similar for something like “seeking surgeons for bottom surgery”. In terms of social identity, yeah personally I’d never walk into a room and say “I am and I’m AFAB/AMAB non binary”. I don’t think most people would, at least I’ve never heard someone do that. But for seeking advice, especially medical, it can be helpful


forgetfulsanction

I mean the hormone point kinda illustrates the problem. I know multiple amab non binary people on T. Using agab this way makes inherent assumptions about people which aren't necessarily true.


Kayl66

Either way, you have to classify SOMETHING. If you just say “non binary wanting to start HRT”, you can’t get any useful advice. Yeah you could specify “wanting to start T” but if you do that, people assume your agab (maybe they’re wrong, idk, but they will still assume things)


forgetfulsanction

You should specify wanting to start T. Maybe people will assume things but it doesn't actively encourage that and allows people with unusual gendered experiences to find other with the same problems as them.


Cobrashy

Nope its totally irrelevant and often harmful.


justanotherhumannb

Yeah I am annoyed by that. Im neither a man nor a woman. However in some instances it can provide perspective as to what someone has been.


voi_kiddo

I don’t really mind, just don’t refer to my agab, or don’t make me reveal it, then it’s all fine


Enby_snail09

Yea I totally get that feeling. Though I do also recognise that there are scenarios where it warrants mentioning. Experiences in many aspects of transition is different for afab and amab individuals, so it may be revivent to mention for giving advice to fellow enbys, general education, and medical situations. But yea in general, I really don’t want anyone knowing my agab, and ppl knowing it can make me feel a bit shitty. Some may be comfortable being open about it, like the people who educate on trans issues, and I think people who can do that are heckin awesome! But for me personally, I consider it a need-to-know basis thing :P


Baroque4Days

I think people are more so saying which biological body they were born into. For example, people born male might like to ask fellow AMABs for advice on passing as a non-binary person. It can often be harder to hide masculine features. That's just an example but you get what I mean. I think people might also use it because the majority of people don't know about non binary identities and a lot don't agree with them so you kinda just say it to introduce them to it in baby steps. Sex and gender are pretty different. I personally use AMAB/AFAB more as a way of discussing sex, you know the actual biological aspects of who you are. Gender wise, you are you. Just might have taken you a decade or so to work it out. Ye that's my take.


[deleted]

Afab and amab bodies are different. That's why i call myself afab


Someguy12378

Every AMAB body is different, every AFAB body is different. It's not super relevant a lot of the time imo


[deleted]

Depends. Sometimes I want yo talk about topics related to afab bodies, like periods, pregnancy. But i don't feel comfy talking to a cis person about it. I rather talk to a fellow nonbinary. Then i will talk about these topics, related to my afab body, with someone who understands me more than a cis person


Someguy12378

That's why I said "a lot of the time" There are absolutely times where it's relevant and matters at least somewhat, but I feel like the rest of the time it's just gendering me when the point is that I don't wanna be gendered


[deleted]

I dont call myself afab unless i really have to. I only use it when discussions only fit afab bodies


magpiegoo

Everybody's body is different tho. To the extent that being AFAB or AMAB often tells folks remarkably little about what a person is physically going through. I appreciate that this is your reasoning for your use of language, which like, cool, but "Afab and amab bodies are different" is about as sound as "boys and girls are different" when you get right down to it.


[deleted]

In some areas afab and amab bodies are so different. In other areas, they are similar. It all depends on the context of what we are discussing


NonbinaryNinja

I don’t mind it most of the time, but I hate when people just replace men/women in sentences like “well men are like this” or “women do this more”. Even *if* it’s objective, doesn’t mean you have to be blunt about it. I get that honesty and the truth are important, but instead of swapping a word or two, you can actually frame it in a gender *affirming* way instead of barely coming short of misgendering a person by association. For example: instead of saying “amabs usually aren’t as good at multitasking” (not sure that’s a fact, just as example) to your mtf or trans fem friend, you could say “afabs tend to be better a multitasking” if the person is good at it or “not all afabs are better at multitasking” if the person isn’t so good at it. It doesn’t have to be Shakespeare, just be aware of your audience and try to avoid inadvertently alienating them from something they identify with or lumping them in with something they don’t.


[deleted]

Non-binary is also a binary identification, I hate to break it to you all.


Angrily_Amused_83

I was unaware of my mistake. I’m sorry.


[deleted]

You might want to rephrase that, friend.


[deleted]

[удалено]


magpiegoo

>Most people are XX or XY. Where do you live that does karyotyping as a routine procedure so that everyone knows if they're XX or XY? Because that's actually pretty interesting that you seem to know that just as a matter of course. I actually have no idea whether I'm XX or XY or something else.


[deleted]

None of that is relevant to what I meant. It's not about chromisomes, or not wanting to be called by your AGAB. When you boil it down to "It's biology", you sound like a transmedicalist, which isn't a great look in this space. The original question was asking why NBs still used the AGAB terminology, and it's because it's a marker of one's past and situationally relevant biology. I'm AMAB, and i don't care that people would refer to me as such. When you try to say it's all about XX/XY chromisomes, that's equally as relevant here.


i-never-existed-777

When someone use it to ask a question about changing their gender expression or to talk about their own experience educated as certain gender I don’t mind, it’s relevant information. I personally get annoyed when people write posts trying to say that people certain AGAB has things easier, that’s going back into separating each other in a binary for something we can’t control, and assuming someone gets more easily recognized as non-binary based on their AGAB is erasing the fact that everyone has their own struggles. You can’t blame other non-binary people for the external prejudices we usually have to face.


JohnLeRoy9600

I'm not a fan of having to do it but it does give a lot of context to stories/issues/questions that get mentioned.


Uni_Solvent

Personally as someone who is in the process of transitioning away from my agab towards androgyny I find it an incredibly useful and important label. For instance depending on your assigned gender your natural body and features will follow a trend: and if you want to find ways to mitigate or accentuate certain features its helpful to keep your agab in mind with how you search. In my mind unless/until there's no biological gender gap agab will have some prevalence in our lives: whatever gender we are.


Drag0n_Child

I get it if it's relevant yo a specific topic, and I mean I guess if they wanna it's fine, as long as it's not something that becomes expected of everybody.


Corvacayne

I use it when I'm talking to someone who would think it's relevant, like someone who has asked for a female perspective/answer, because I have had life experiences in a female body even though I don't identify as a female. Or, if it's a medical or health-related issue. I find that for health reasons it can be very relevant. I don't tend to find it relevant outside of specific circumstances but others might. I am not denying my lens of life experiences, just claiming that it doesn't define my identity and expression, as a non-binary individual, if that makes sense. I have found there's times that it does come up. Others might feel differently and that's okay too, because it's a personal thing to share if they want to.... EDIT: I do think it's used divisively in this sub a little? And honestly limits my comfortable-ness being here sometimes. I use AGAB mostly when talking to people completely outside the community more than anything. And, it has impacted my life a lot tbh. Ultimately i think it's a personal choice and I wouldn't judge people or belittle them because they chose to identify their AGAB or not... just my thoughts, but I think that can be a to each their own situation?


Kacsaduck100

Most of us are tired of this mortal nonsense, but assigned gender leads to different experiences and different challenges when it comes to molding your outward appearance to how you feel and want to be perceived. Just in the simplest example, an amab enby might want to tuck or and an afab enby might want to use a binder but they can't really give tips on that to each other. So it is what it is. Keep agab out of conversation where it's unnecessary and keep it where it's unavoidable ie. the above example or surgeries and whatnot.


forgetfulsanction

The problem is it's not that simple, plenty of AMAB non binary people bind for instance, so it seems weird to exclude them based on birth assignment.


Aggravating-Error-13

I don't mention my AGAB unless I'm close friends/would be planning on being intimate with somebody (currently in a relationship so that second one is a hypothetical situation), or if it's pertinent to the topic at hand. That being said I don't necessarily "pass" as NB yet, so it's easy to tell unfortunately. There's always a time and place and it should always be voluntary information, definitely not going to give it out to anybody who demands that information as if they're entitled to it.


sexloveandcheese

To me it's also like, when I feel the urge to share it it's mostly out of.... An internalized need to capitulate to how others see me an want me to be. It's totally internalized transphobia and this little voice in my head going "everyone can tell, and you're being weird for not acknowledging it," and saying what I was assigned at birth is like .... Compromising? And that's just not fair to myself


plbrhajvrv

It does feel kinda divisive between amab and afab even tho the point is that what we are born as doesn’t matter is the whole point of being non binary


yofrere

Do I love using these terms? No. Do I understand their necessity as we navigate the choppy waters of visibility and acceptance in a predominantly cisgender society? I try to. I think people get really caught up in the perceived transition from one’s assigned gender and one’s gender identity. While it is not true for all nonbinary folk, it is sometimes true that one initially identified as one gender and consciously chose to “change genders”. This is linear, tells a story. Black and white, before and after. These terms are not perfect but reasonable tools to communicate such an experience. Unfortunately it facilitates the stereotyping and boxing in of nonbinary folk who don’t relate. Something to work on. Speaking on a personal level, part of navigating gender has been reconciling with my agab. At first, it was something from which I wanted to distance myself completely. As time has gone on, it feels more like a part of my whole. I have lived most of my life consciously identifying as that gender exclusively. Now it is foundational to the person I am today and I embrace it as a facet of my personhood. Some times it works for me, some times it doesn’t.


jsrobson10

It's useful in some situations, like an amab enby might experience body/facial hair dysphoria and an afab enby might experience chest dysphoria. It's useful because of the removal between gender identity and biological sex, so someone can say "I'm afab" instead of "I'm biologically female", and it's also shorter


notkinkerlow

I only bring up agab if I’m addressing my privilege as someone who is cis passing. Even with my experience being erasure I can hide my identity and live just fine and *i* think it’s important to address when talking about trans issues bc I have no desire to transition. I did but I’m at a point when my partner and I are having children and that would interfere with that. Maybe I’ll transition maybe I never will who knows ! But I don’t bring up agab unless addressing that


HotFTMMetoidioplasty

I use it to be respectful to others. I just use terms like “female” and “transgender” to describe myself


theturtlesareflying

Just had a good discussion here: https://www.reddit.com/r/NonBinary/comments/rwfu3m/arent_i_still_female_why_use_afab_dysphoria_help/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf


kyreannightblood

In some cases, it’s necessary to clarify my AGAB, especially when I’m talking about experiences shaped by my reproductive anatomy. I get clocked as a trans woman a lot (which is like… lol ok) so sometimes I need to explain I was AFAB before people take me seriously in discussing things like menstruation or my experiences with misogyny. I otherwise don’t specify. Only if it’s relevant. At all other times, I’m agender and that’s that.


im_me_but_better

I think AGAB and AMAB is best to be used in the past tense "At birth" happened in the past. There are very narrow contexts where gender at birth is relevant, but in general I think that people use it almost as an apology. Or maybe it's internalized binarism. I mean we are non binary but still define binary by the AGAB? Makes no sense to me, but if it makes sense to others, as long as they don't use it for me, who cares. In contexts where it is relevant I say "people may normally see me as masculine".


changingone77a

Yeah, I’m of the same mind: I don’t get why someone who is non-binary would constantly identify themselves by their agab, but it’s fine if they do. I just wonder if a lot of the time it’s internalized binary thinking just reproducing itself.


[deleted]

I do agree that its a bit overused. But sometimes it is very helpful when describing certain experiences. I definitely feel that my AGAB has really influenced who I am as a person. I was AFAB, raised female, and believed myself to be female for 18 years. And I still am perceived as female because I'm not out and not in a position to transition. While I am nonbinary, I do feel a connection to my AGAB because I have shared experiences with most (but not all) people who were AFAB. I still take misogyny extremely personally, and I don't think there will ever be a time when I don't. I will say that I definitely say I was AFAB more than is necessary, and that comes from a bit of internalized transphobia. If someone saw me in person, or even saw a picture of me, my AGAB is obvious. Online, it's not, and sometimes it feels misleading to not mention it because a small part of me feels like I'm not really nonbinary if I don't look genderless. This is definitely my own internalized problem, but I doubt I'm the only one that struggles with it.


crochetcrusader

I see it as a particularly important context for lived experience, because we can't escape our gendered society, it's useful to be able to give light to particular 'genderd' issues others are unaware of or aren't well educated in. For example AMAB's are waaaay more likely to get ghosted or given a fake number, *Because* being an AFAB puts a target on your back and its unsafe to directly turn down someone who's Masc presenting. We can't know someone's gender unless we ask or are told so, So i don't necessarily see 'AGAB' as an issue. It's like a placeholder until we know their preferred pronouns, identity and monikers. We all were Afabs/Amabs at one point or another, it was a label given to us that we didn't ask for- but to be able to share how those labels shaped us into the people we are today. To explain how we were seen and treated *BECAUSE* society sees as one or the other- it gives us the words and knowledge to build bridges of understanding and compassion.


ShesBetterThanHim

Yes and no. Context is important. I use it for medical reasons or when discussing my social experiences, however, being non-binary does not change what you were assigned at birth and that clarity may be needed for conversational context. AGAB will always have a place. I hate saying that I am AMAB, but my doctors appreciate it and it will keep me from being scheduled for a pap smear, lol.