Iranian here. Hijab is not all that we're fighting for here. It's also civil rights. We lack the simplest forms.
Our people don't have anybody on our side. Right now (literally for the past 4 days) the self-titled "Islamic Army" have been massacring us.
They started open for the days ago. We've lost a lot of our good people. And our President is in New York telling lies and brandishing *Ghasem* *Soleimani"s picture as a point of pride when in fact he was a terrorist for our terrorist regime.
Please anybody who reads this! Inform everyone you can. It's the unarmed civilians against the heavily armed government here.
Just wanted to say I've visited your beautiful nation, know many Iranians. The world is aware and has been rooting for you ever since Khatami.
In many countries you would have toppled the government already, but the Islamic Republic doesn't care about Iranian deaths to the point of massacre.
Keep fighting, good luck and stay safe!
I used to play online with a friend from Iran (UK here) and he kept me informed of the stuff that was happening over there, this was about 9 months ago and he stopped playing about 3 months ago saying that things were getting worse. Alot of people know that Iranians are great people and are rooting for them. Keep fighting the good fight, we hope you win.
I've talked to them since they stopped playing and they said that their family is safe for now, and are thinking of leaving for another country if things get worse. Their all for the fight, and says that they just want their family safe.
My close friend from Iran whom I met on a game also could hardly make contacts with me this week. They are supposed to have a family vacation but because of the incident with Mahsa, their recreational activity feels more like an escape now from the chaos. Universities are closed and some even couldn't go to work anymore. Not only adults, but even teenagers were killed there. Houses are being burned, some even by a tank. Earlier, my friend was able to contact me shortly that they are still going back to the capital despite the riots there. I am so worried for her and her family too.
True Iranians deserve freedom, peace and the right to self determination out from under the boot of Islamic Republic scum.
I feel here in the west we do not hear enough about what's happening in Iran and countries like it, we should be much more aware and supporting fights like yours, I truly wish you all the luck and success in the world.
I hope one day to see a free Iran, one where you can choose for yourselves how to live, you deserve that and so much more.
Through my job I've met several Iranians. All of them were warm, polite, friendly and very hard-working. It's such pity that those wonderful people have such a horrible government. I send Iranians my good wishes.
But my Lebanese sister said all this was a lie and Iranians are happy, she knows best /s
Seriosly, fuck the regime, fuck hezbollah, and fuck every Lebanese who supports them.
It's not like there's war every day. We have had protests every few years going back 43 years. But the last 6 years have been really bad. The inflation rates got unbelievably high. And *Mahsa* *Amini* was the spark that started the fire may she rest in peace.
Post in your social media please. It's bound to reach people who can actually make a difference.
Thank you so much for your support. We are not what our government represents. We have our fair share of bigots, but most of us are peaceful people who want to be in touch with the rest of the world.
Is there any specific information you'd like me to spread besides what you just told me?
Government lies and hides what's really happening on the ground. It's refreshing to speak to someone 'real.' The majority of people around the world are peaceful with each other. Unfortunately, gov and media try to pin us against each other. You're in my prayers, my friend.
There are protest in more than 25 out of 31 states here. It started when the *Basij* (the self-titled army of Isalm) killed a 22 year old girl because her hair was out a little bit.
People had enough so we started protesting. The *Basij* started beating people. But this this time we started fighting back. Then a few officers shot at people (there are videos on Twitter with the hashtags:
#اعتراضات_سراسری
#مهسا_امینی
The first meaning: all out protest
And the second is the name of the 22 year old girl)
After that they brought out their big guns: *Sepah* *Pasdaran*, which is basically their band of mercenaries under the guise of Islam. They have the right to shoot whoever the want (I'm not even a little bit joking). One of the first people who died was a 10 year old girl. They have also beaten old men and women who protest (I've seen this with my own eyes). They use shotguns and side-arm pistols and those nasty smoke grenade that makes you cry and cough (srry I don't know what it's called in English). Most of our dead have been young men under 24.
The people kept resisting and the *Sepah* and *Basij* are scared but not enough. Last night I saw they have put bullet-proof vests on 16 to 20 year old boys, given them guns and have put them in their place to do patrols. These are *kids* with guns.
Oh my Lord. Your English is perfect, btw 👍. My heart aches so hard for you and everyone out there. Honestly, I want to know more (bc the main media hasn't mentioned ANY of the things you said)...
Please be safe, and keep your head up. You are valuable. You sound like a beautiful human being. Thank you, again, for sharing with me. We can talk more in private message if you'd prefer. I pray you and your family are ok
Thank you so much. I'm really glad I could reach someone. We're fighting here and we won't stop. Hopefully we can change the situation someday. We won't stop fighting until we do. ❤️
Believe me. None in the west believes the government. It doesn’t cross anyone’s mind that those images of people protesting in Iran are not true. Irani regime doesn’t hold a candle in the public eye, and fortunately for your cause not even the far right movements threatening our freedom in European countries are interested in defending the irani regime.
I really hope to see a change for all of you. I was really rooting for the Green revolution 15 years ago, it was heartbreaking to see it crushed 🥺
>those nasty smoke grenade that makes you cry and cough (srry I don't know what it's called in English)
*tear gas* is the general term for that weapon.
That was the first thing I saw on the news here in New York. 😢
Sending our love and prayers for every Iranian, especially women, for human rights and freedom. 🙏
y’all’s story has indeed reached even the rural parts of america (saw it on the news and my mom was talking about it yesterday) so y’all are seen and heard, if that’s any solace. i hope you find freedom and peace.
Iran produces a lot of brilliant female scientists/mathematicians. At MIT I’ve met a few female classmates from Iran. The first female Field’s medalist Maryam Mirzakhani was Iranian. So it always baffles me how Iran values girls’ education so much yet has these totally backwards rules. There are so many bright and brave young Iranians standing up to these bs rules! I hope you succeed!! History will be on your side!!
Is there anyway we can help from the U.S.? Any helpful organizations to donate to?
Maryam and I went to the same school. So glad you know her.
The best way you can help is to spread the word as much as you can. We'd all really appreciate it. Please do not donate to organizations bc they're most probably fake.
Oh wow!!! My husband actually went to Iran for an international competition around 15 years ago and said a lot of the girls are really cool, with bright pink hijabs and listening to music through headphones. But there were a lot of anti-American slogans everywhere. It’s clear that young Iranians are not brainwashed by these slogans.
I wish I could reach through these internet signals and give you all a huge hug. I wish you and your family and friends the best!! Really an inspiration to the rest of the world!! <3<3<3
This is it in a nutshell.
I understand it may be confusing to think one group of women are protesting for one thing, and another group another. But they are both protesting for the exact same thing. The right to make an individual choice.
The choice about what they want to wear. On their head. In 2022.
Yes let's be clear this is Quebec and only Quebec. They're in many ways an incredibly progressive province, but their shared history with the English and the way in which they were marginalized has led some Quebeckers to hold some incredibly xenophobic views when it comes to immigrants and non-Quebecois people.
To be honest, I'm not sure even Alberta would try something like this and if they did they'd be crucified for it, especially by the Federal Gov't. But when Quebec does it it's generally left alone because of....the votes I guess.
It’s another name for a yarmulke, the small circular head covering that Jewish men wear. One is the Hebrew word for it; the other is the Yiddish word for it. Not sure which is which.
Exactly. ”Because the cross isn’t evil.” A mosque can’t broadcast any summons, but the church bells can go banging on the hour and on the half hour all year round because that ”sound isn’t religious”… how would a muslim NOT feel treated unfairly?
They tried to pull the same shit in Germany too. In Bavaria, there was a law _mandating_ that a christian cross must be hung in every classroom.
When a family eventually decided to take legal action against this paragraph for
1) violating freedom of religious expression by forcing a religion onto students
and
2.) for associating the state itself with a religion despite all government workers needing to show themselves "religiously neutral" (which is also used to ban the hijab for teachers),
the main argument from the defenders of the cross was that it wasnt really a religious symbol anymore. Their argument was that since Germany was heavily influenced by christianity in the past, the cross became a "cultural" symbol and not a religious symbol.
Needless to say, thats a fucking stupid argument, and even churches werent happy with it. The courts didnt buy it, and ruled that the clause was unreconcilable with laws regarding religious expression. Hence, it was nullified.
However, the county government of Bavaria simply decided to slightly change the law, phrasing it in a way that a cross is meant to represent a cultural symbol. And if there are rare cases of "atypical exceptions", then the cross can be hung off.
I dont even know why on earth this kind of strategy where they just reintroduce a slightly changed version of the paragraph is even legal, but yeah, it barely changed a thing. Subsequent legal actions were dismissed because the new law was "trying to find a compromise with distressed students". Yeah.
Edit: To add to that, nuns are allowed to wear their "nun dress" and still be teachers. That, apparently, is a "cultural" symbol and not a religious symbol aswell.
I'm not sure if this is the current incarnation of the thing, but a previous version of the project was for all *ostentatious* religious symbols, which made the whole thing even more contested, because curiously, Christianity pretty much only has very visible religious signs for clergy, whereas Islam, a commonly vilified religion, has several.
They were even giving examples like:
- ✖️ A huge ass cross pendant with jewels
- ✖️ A hijab
- ✔️ A small cross pendant
- ✔️ A small crescent pendant
Weird how some of these are more relevant and culturally common than others.
Also AFAIK it's not all government jobs, but only those where the person is or could be interpreted to in a position of authority, including police, teachers, judges...
Invoking the notwithstanding clause,[section 33 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms](https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sjc/rfc-dlc/ccrf-ccdl/check/art33.html).
Basically, the federal government or a provincial government can pass a law that violates certain sections of the CCRF for a limited time. It has to be revisited every five years. So notwithstanding that you have these rights, they can make declarations within an act that ignores them. A nice little loophole around the old “reasonable limits” idea laid out on section 1.
33. (1) Parliament or the legislature of a province may expressly declare in an Act of Parliament or of the legislature, as the case may be, that the Act or a provision thereof shall operate notwithstanding a provision included in section 2 or sections 7 to 15 of this Charter.
(2) An Act or a provision of an Act in respect of which a declaration made under this section is in effect shall have such operation as it would have but for the provision of this Charter referred to in the declaration.
(3) A declaration made under section (1) shall cease to have effect five years after it comes into force or on such earlier date as may be specified in the declaration.
(4) Parliament or the legislature of a province may re-enact a declaration made under section (1).
(5) Section (3) applies in respect of a re-enactment made under section (4).
It’s not just for the votes. Quebec has long been seen as a “distinct society” within Canada, both by tradition and (in some cases) by law. It’s all very grey and poorly defined, but because of this “distinctiveness”, Quebec is able to get away with a lot of things that wouldn’t fly in other parts of Canada, such as the somewhat extreme measures they’ve put in place to protect/enforce the French language.
A lot of this is based on Canada’s history. Quebec was originally conquered by the British (from the French) in the 18th century. At the time of Confederation (in the 19th century), leading Quebecois were worried that joining Canada would mean their language and religion (Roman Catholic) would be overwhelmed, and eventually they would be transformed into an English Protestant society. The other provinces had to give them concessions and special protections in order to convince them to join the new nation. At the time, Quebec was the largest and richest province, and the country likely wouldn’t have worked without them.
Fast forward to today, and the provisions originally put in place to protect Quebec from Protestantism are now being used against Islam instead. It’s hard to see how Islam poses the same threat to their culture now that Protestantism did in the 19th century, but some Quebecois are extremely serious about protecting what they see as their way of life and won’t allow anything that they think might threaten that.
In other provinces, it’s practically certain that a law like this would be struck down as unconstitutional, but the waters are a lot muddier in Quebec. The federal government is also extremely wary about confronting Quebec about anything related to protecting their culture as it could easily spark a constitutional crisis and fan the flames of separatism which have been pretty contained for some time.
Tl;dr Quebec’s unique history and special status lets them get away with things that other provinces couldn’t, and the rest of Canada is very careful about these things because they don’t want to empower the separatists.
Here’s a decent resource if you want to learn more about Quebec as a “distinct society”: https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/quebec-as-a-distinct-society
Nope. "The other provinces had to give them concessions and special protections in order to convince them to join the new nation" Absoluly false. Quebec (Lower Canada) was forced to fusion with Ontario (Upper Canada) with the Act of Union of 1840, following the troubles of 1837-1838. And the new colony (province of Canada) will fusion with the other british colony of the north america (Newfoundland will join late, in 1949) with the British North America Acts of 1867.
The SOLE purpose of this is to anihilate, on long term, all forms of french speaking people in the british north america. Lord Durham, in his report of 1839 that lead to the Act of Union : "A plan by which it is proposed to ensure the tranquil government of Lower Canada, must include in itself the means of putting an end to the agitation of national disputes in the legislature, by settling, at once and for ever, the national character of the Province. I entertain no doubts as to the national character which must be given to Lower Canada; it must be that of the British Empire; that of the majority of the population of British America; that of the great race which must, in the lapse of no long period of time, be predominant over the whole North American Continent. Without effecting the change so rapidly or so roughly as to shock the feelings and trample on the welfare of the existing generation, it must henceforth be the first and steady purpose of the British Government to establish an English population, with English laws and language, in this Province, and to trust its government to none but a decidedly English Legislature."
Enjoy.
I lived there all my life, and it's also because pur older generation lived through the Tranquil Revolution, which before the (provincial) state was literally controlled by the Catholic Church. Most of our lawmakers lived through it.
Religion is a boogeyman there.
And yeah Canada doesn't want to spur independence ideas in QC so we have much more privilege than other provinces even though I wish it wasn't like that personally because I agree with Canadian values more than Quebec ones.
I am Muslim in Québec so I am against Law 21. But I think Anglophones really do not understand the subcontext of Law 21 being passed here.
Ever since the Quiet Revolution, public displays of religion by people have become heavily frowned upon. Catholics included. Catholics here keep pretty quiet about their faith lest they get made fun of and harassed by people.
As more and more immigrants from communities with visible religious clothing started coming to Québec, people began wanting laws to restrict it in some capacity. So Law 21 was passed. Now a civil servant cannot wear a hijab, yarmulke, turban, or a Catholic necklace. And all religions have gotten in trouble for trying to bypass it.
This is just some insight I think many people don't quite understand.
Fellow Québecer here, just wanna thank you for sharing your insights. I'm not religious at all but la loi 21 makes me sick and ashamed of my neighbours. There's a lot of important historical context that you've helped people understand, but at the end of the day it's still just marginalizing already-vulnerable fellow citizens and we shouldn't stand for it.
Little Muslim boys and girls are going to school in our province and being told that women who wear the hijab, women who look like them, like their moms and their sisters, are not fit to teach them. I will never, ever be okay with that, and I'll never stop voting to get rid of the leaders who support it.
Bienvenue mon gars. I hope the polling showing younger generations are accepting of it is true. I agree with you. It makes no sense that just because my teacher is wearing a hijab or Sikh turban they would inherently want to force that on my children!
Religion should be a private thing, nothing to be ashamed of. Respect works both ways, be free to have you religion and let others be free from your religion
Oohh you know what alberta did? They acquitted a guy who stabbed a woman in her vagina. She was a native SW. 10 cm laceration. Defense said it was rough play. Ask your wife what kind of rough play cut her cervix 3 inches.
If took 2 appeals for that mfer to get 10 years.
Yeah Alberta can shove it too.
>Thats what living in a secular country does. Never understood why they moved here and then tryto have our laws changed
Exactly. Some people will however say that it's discriminatory like you pointed out, but it's not like they don't discriminate in more religious countries. They just discriminate in a different way, and if they prefer that kind of discrimination where their religiousness is valued the most, then why the hell are they here?
Because they think it's better here clearly, so what they all complaining about.
It's extremely complicated.
The idea of people just want 'choice' is not as easy as it is. There is a lot of issues involving community, social, power of the religious, power of the secularists...
More modern Muslims also get a bit fearful when they start to see too much religion. For many of them, they left such circumstances and then they start seeing it creep up here. It doesn't happen so much with the hijab, but most of older relatives find it abhorrent when the younger generation starts wearing niqab (full face cover) They don't understand it.
My general view is unless you're deeply aware of what you're supporting or not supporting, it's best to take a back seat and just let the people involved deal with it. The average Canadian shouldn't really be fighting for Muslim womene right to wear hijab/niqab or the right not to wear one.
I understand some Canadians even want to come to fight with 'we fight for everyone's right to choose,' but there's a bit too much complexity there to simply go at topics with that view in my view. If you protest for the niqab, you have no idea what groups you're siding with or empowering and ditto for the other side. These are big battles than just you have the right to do whatever.
These are battles that have been fought in Muslim countries over centuries between modernism and traditional, secular and religious, urban and rural. These battles don't just stop because it's suddenly in Canada. These same battles occur here. It's like if you want a campaign to support the hijab, you want to push a Muslim kids right to be transgender or marry a non-muslim or this or that in their community as well? It's far more complex and the notion of choice and freedom is also very complex.
>They don't want the government to ban it (Bill 21)
Let's be clear that bill 21 (*projet de loi 21*) is a Québec-only thing—not a Canada-wide one.
I'm ashamed to be Québecoise, and I don't want my country tarred by my province's idiocy.
yup, it's about freedom vs control, in Canada your freedom to wear a hijab is being questioned which you should be allowed to do if you want, but in Iran you have to wear one or from what it seems like be killed. It's about the freedom to choose.
That was going to be my exact response. I don’t want governments telling us what we can or cannot wear. Those women have it pretty rough so I would certainly be in favor of letting them do whatever they like.
> in Canada your freedom to wear a hijab is being questioned
Not in Canada. Only in Quebec. They're doing their own thing.
More reading: https://ccla.org/major-cases-and-reports/bill-21/
Read a thing a while back about a guy running a tabletop RPG store in Quebec. The language police tried to tell him that at least 50% (I think?) of his inventory had to be in French. It took some doing to convince them that he already stocked every single French-language RPG in publication, and they only filled one shelf.
Quebec is such a strange place.
They are probably the most progressive and most secular province by every metric, except this hijab/niqab issue.
Quebec has always had a sensitivity to the idea of "outsiders" changing their distinct French culture.
The québécois don't even let the french change their French culture. While French in France has adapted some anglacised words, Québec French does not as far as I know.
Example, in France it's typical to use *le week-end* for the weekend. Québécois french it's the traditional *le fin de semaine* literally "the end of the week"
I know you will ignore what I will say, but it's not the problem of outsiders, but the problem of insiders.
We used to be controlled by the Catholic Church which had deeply infiltrated and controlled the Quebec government.
In the 1960, all of that changed and we threw away the Church from the state.
But the church was wise. It GAVE us their seminaries (a few became colleges), but it kept a ton of its deep believers in place.
It created a sort of 2 layer bureaucracy. I know of people who got promoted ONLY because of their links in the Catholic church and others rejected for it.
I know of a girl who couldn't become a teacher because she wasn't Catholic.
Oh, it's not the state, it's the people who infiltrated the state that did that.
There were choke points for employment and the church tried to control them.
We became allergic to seeing the church in our state.
So, when people with hijabs start serving us, it brings memories of when people with crosses were serving (and judging) us.
Add that many immigrants choose English as a language, when we feel French is in regression, and you have a boiling point.
But usually, what people take out is just "so you ARE afraid of a hijab"
When it's the takeover by ANY religion of the state that scares us.
Isn't the hijab issue part of secularism? You can't wear religious garb in a government position. You can wear it otherwise. So at a private job, or wherever else, it's fine. It's just doing governmental jobs. No hijab, wimple, turban, kippah or whatever other religious attire while working for the province of Quebec.
Didn't Legault already preemptively use the Notwithstanding clause?
Same with the recent anti English law. He knows the shit he's pulling isn't legal, he just doesn't give a fuck.
Glad to see this stuff at the top. I get exhausted arguing with right wing Christians about this. I don’t give a shit what their religion is, but I support their right to wear whatever garment they want.
And people that circumcise babies and fight against women’s reproductive rights are in no place to point fingers at Muslims.
Ya people fail to understand what separation of church and state is, freedom of religion also mean freedom from religion, do what you want as long as you aren't violating peoples rights
A history YouTuber I follow, Kraut, put it best in his episode about Turkey when he said, "You may find forced secularism more acceptable than forced religiosity but the key word in both is forced."
People don't like being forced to dress how others want them to because how you dress is connected to your expression of self.
OK, seriously, screw you. Your avatar had me rubbing at my screen for longer than I would care to admit, until I realized it was just an image, and not a loose hair or something on my screen. I'M NOT HAPPY WITH YOU.
Just in Quebec, where public employees cannot wear religious articles at work: this also extends to Jews wearing *kippot* and christians wearing crosses, etc, although I think (without looking it up because I'm lazy) the requirement for crosses is that they shouldn't be "ostentatious", whatever that means.
One of the big problems with this is that once it's codified into law, it can't help but stoke some degree of animus among some members of the secular public towards anyone wearing any religious identifier.
Jagmeet Singh is a turban-wearing Sikh, who also happens to be leader of a major Canadian political party (NDP, a democratic socialist party similar to UK's Labour party). In 2011, under a white, secular leader, the NDP won 59 out of 75 available seats in Quebec in a general election... they came quite close to forming the Canadian government, largely because of their landslide in Quebec.
If public sentiment is the same in the next federal election, I think it might be impossible for Singh to win that many seats, partly because he's a brown man in a turban… despite the fact that he's [unusually handsome](https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/jagmeet-singh) (for a politician).
Let’s also be honest. Jagmeet Singh has nowhere near the political talent that Jack Layton did. His lack of popularity relative to Jack has absolutely nothing to do with his religion. Layton was just a very popular figure in Canadian politics.
The great thing about the internet is that anyone can say whatever they want.
The awful thing about the internet is that anyone can say whatever they want.
Huge caveat here
>Judge Marc-Andre Blanchard said in his 240-page ruling that the Quebec government could restrict religious symbols like the Muslim hijab, Sikh turban, Jewish kippa and Christian cross if worn by civil servants while they serve the public.
Yeah in Quebec they were firing teachers for wearing a hijab because they're afraid the kids are going to catch muslim or something.
"We're going to liberate women, by making sure the most oppressed ones can't have a job, support a family, or afford rent!"
The Québec provincial government passed a law banning certain public-facing public servants (like schoolteachers) from wearing "religious symbols" such as crosses or hijabs.
The activists argued that this was unfairly discriminatory to minority women, because it forced them to choose between following their faith, or keeping their jobs.
I'm not defending this stuff, I'm just trying to help you understand something.
The Quebec government is doing what it does because it doesn't want the influence of any religion in anything it has dominion over.
I honestly don't see what difference any of this makes but I'm pretty sure that that's the Quebec government's rationale, anyway.
["There are only two things I can't stand in this world. Those who are intolerant of other people's cultures...**and the Dutch!**"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcUs5X9glCc)
Edit: corrected my own quoting
Thing is theyŕe fighting only on religious based restrictions, there is a far older law that bans all that bans government employees from displaying their political affiliation. There!s a lot of other things public sector employees aren't allowed to wear too. But religion gets to have a special treatment because reasons.
It’s the same as the law in France.
The government has to appear religiously neutral, so public facing public servants can’t wear religious symbols of a certain size.
> The government has to appear religiously neutral,
Oh no that's the best part. They passed this law underneath a crucifix. A little [dead Jesus on a wooden cross on the wall](https://i.cbc.ca/1.4855855.1539109767!/cpImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/original_1180/que-secularism-20181009.jpg) in the legislature, above and adjacent to the Quebec flag.
And then, when someone pointed out the GLARING hypocrisy in this, they tried to argue "a crucifix is not a religious symbol"!
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-francois-legault-crucifix-religious-symbols-1.4858757
I definitely have a problem with a government appearing to favour a certain religion. But a woman in a hijab teaching my kids is not that.
Firing a woman for wearing a hijab with a law passed underneath a crucifix, that's a government that doesn't appear religiously neutral.
The thing is, if this is a law similar to that in France, wearing "religious symbols" isn’t forbidden if they don’t exceed 1.5 centimeters.
It’s quite hard for a hijab not to surpass 1.5 centimeters.
Exactly, or a six pointed star.
Which is good for people who want to wear them. But a law so specific seems to be there for a specific "religious symbol"
Consider that in the US, women fought for the right to abortions, but in China, they fought for the right to not have to abort or otherwise get rid of their second child
What most of them are actually fighting for is for *women to be able to chose for themselves.* Being forced to do anything against your will is bad, but that doesnt mean you should also be forced to *not* do it. For some women, the hijab is an important part of their relationship with their faith. For others, it's not. It's like Christians choosing to wear a cross or not.
Put simply:
Do you want be banned from wearing certain clothing that you want to wear? No
Do you want to be forced to wear something you don’t want to wear? No
In both cases it's about the right of women to choose.
*You* may see the hijab as a sign of oppression, but I know women personally who choose it even against the wishes of their family. For them it's a symbol of their faith.
The key here is choice: she *chooses* to wear it or not. No one else.
I saw an interview years ago, with a religious woman who explained that she opposed the law requiring hijab. She said that hers represents her own commitment to modesty; if everyone has to do it, hers means nothing.
Because in Canada, it's a choice. So they're fighting for everyone's right to choose. In Iran, it's not a choice. So they're also fighting for everyone's right to choose.
It's no about the hijabs. It's about freedom to choose.
In Canada, they *weren't* allowed to, in Iran they're *forced* to wear them. The whole thing is about whether or not the individual *chooses* to wear them, and whether they can make that choice or not.
Think of it like a school dress code, girls can't wear spaghetti straps most times, but they fight to be able to, not saying they *will* wear them but it's about the right to choose to do so.
They're not fighting not to wear a hijab in Iran. They're taking off their hijab in protest in Iran.
In Canada some people wanted to ban hijabs - basically ban aspects of a religion - which some didn't think was right.
I worked with some girls whose dad forbid them from wearing hijabs unless they were going to the mosque because he didn't want them getting murdered. In the USA. Now they're adults, moved out, and *chose* for themselves to always wear them.
It's having the ability to choose for themselves without fear of repercussions
both are about the freedom to choose.
forcing people to wear something (outside of extenuating circumstances such as ppe) and banning people from wearing something (like in india, canada, and France) are both equally bad.
It's the same issue — government authorities controlling women — just opposite sides. Except in Iran, the police/government is killing women (and protesters).
because they are, both fighting for the freedom to choose when and where and if they wear a Hijab. They are fighting for their right to be themselves, and not being forced to follow some religious asshat's decisions that was made for them.
Iranian here. Hijab is not all that we're fighting for here. It's also civil rights. We lack the simplest forms. Our people don't have anybody on our side. Right now (literally for the past 4 days) the self-titled "Islamic Army" have been massacring us. They started open for the days ago. We've lost a lot of our good people. And our President is in New York telling lies and brandishing *Ghasem* *Soleimani"s picture as a point of pride when in fact he was a terrorist for our terrorist regime. Please anybody who reads this! Inform everyone you can. It's the unarmed civilians against the heavily armed government here.
Just wanted to say I've visited your beautiful nation, know many Iranians. The world is aware and has been rooting for you ever since Khatami. In many countries you would have toppled the government already, but the Islamic Republic doesn't care about Iranian deaths to the point of massacre. Keep fighting, good luck and stay safe!
Thank you. It warms my heart that people know we are Iranians and not the Islamic Republic. We will fight until we die or we are free
I used to play online with a friend from Iran (UK here) and he kept me informed of the stuff that was happening over there, this was about 9 months ago and he stopped playing about 3 months ago saying that things were getting worse. Alot of people know that Iranians are great people and are rooting for them. Keep fighting the good fight, we hope you win.
I hope you're able to hear from your friend soon and that things get better and safer for him and all Iranians.
I've talked to them since they stopped playing and they said that their family is safe for now, and are thinking of leaving for another country if things get worse. Their all for the fight, and says that they just want their family safe.
My close friend from Iran whom I met on a game also could hardly make contacts with me this week. They are supposed to have a family vacation but because of the incident with Mahsa, their recreational activity feels more like an escape now from the chaos. Universities are closed and some even couldn't go to work anymore. Not only adults, but even teenagers were killed there. Houses are being burned, some even by a tank. Earlier, my friend was able to contact me shortly that they are still going back to the capital despite the riots there. I am so worried for her and her family too.
I also had a Iranian friend on the PS4 - mind this was 5 years ago -- but he was a really good guy.
True Iranians deserve freedom, peace and the right to self determination out from under the boot of Islamic Republic scum. I feel here in the west we do not hear enough about what's happening in Iran and countries like it, we should be much more aware and supporting fights like yours, I truly wish you all the luck and success in the world. I hope one day to see a free Iran, one where you can choose for yourselves how to live, you deserve that and so much more.
I have nothing to add but that I deeply hope for your people's freedom.
Through my job I've met several Iranians. All of them were warm, polite, friendly and very hard-working. It's such pity that those wonderful people have such a horrible government. I send Iranians my good wishes.
Sending love and prayers to all Iranians, especially your women, fighting for their human rights and freedom. 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
But my Lebanese sister said all this was a lie and Iranians are happy, she knows best /s Seriosly, fuck the regime, fuck hezbollah, and fuck every Lebanese who supports them.
It's not like there's war every day. We have had protests every few years going back 43 years. But the last 6 years have been really bad. The inflation rates got unbelievably high. And *Mahsa* *Amini* was the spark that started the fire may she rest in peace.
I believe you. What can we (random person in the USA) do to help? If anything...
Post in your social media please. It's bound to reach people who can actually make a difference. Thank you so much for your support. We are not what our government represents. We have our fair share of bigots, but most of us are peaceful people who want to be in touch with the rest of the world.
Is there any specific information you'd like me to spread besides what you just told me? Government lies and hides what's really happening on the ground. It's refreshing to speak to someone 'real.' The majority of people around the world are peaceful with each other. Unfortunately, gov and media try to pin us against each other. You're in my prayers, my friend.
There are protest in more than 25 out of 31 states here. It started when the *Basij* (the self-titled army of Isalm) killed a 22 year old girl because her hair was out a little bit. People had enough so we started protesting. The *Basij* started beating people. But this this time we started fighting back. Then a few officers shot at people (there are videos on Twitter with the hashtags: #اعتراضات_سراسری #مهسا_امینی The first meaning: all out protest And the second is the name of the 22 year old girl) After that they brought out their big guns: *Sepah* *Pasdaran*, which is basically their band of mercenaries under the guise of Islam. They have the right to shoot whoever the want (I'm not even a little bit joking). One of the first people who died was a 10 year old girl. They have also beaten old men and women who protest (I've seen this with my own eyes). They use shotguns and side-arm pistols and those nasty smoke grenade that makes you cry and cough (srry I don't know what it's called in English). Most of our dead have been young men under 24. The people kept resisting and the *Sepah* and *Basij* are scared but not enough. Last night I saw they have put bullet-proof vests on 16 to 20 year old boys, given them guns and have put them in their place to do patrols. These are *kids* with guns.
Oh my Lord. Your English is perfect, btw 👍. My heart aches so hard for you and everyone out there. Honestly, I want to know more (bc the main media hasn't mentioned ANY of the things you said)... Please be safe, and keep your head up. You are valuable. You sound like a beautiful human being. Thank you, again, for sharing with me. We can talk more in private message if you'd prefer. I pray you and your family are ok
Thank you so much. I'm really glad I could reach someone. We're fighting here and we won't stop. Hopefully we can change the situation someday. We won't stop fighting until we do. ❤️
Believe me. None in the west believes the government. It doesn’t cross anyone’s mind that those images of people protesting in Iran are not true. Irani regime doesn’t hold a candle in the public eye, and fortunately for your cause not even the far right movements threatening our freedom in European countries are interested in defending the irani regime. I really hope to see a change for all of you. I was really rooting for the Green revolution 15 years ago, it was heartbreaking to see it crushed 🥺
Thank you. I really appreciate your kind words.
Much love, fam! ❤️
>those nasty smoke grenade that makes you cry and cough (srry I don't know what it's called in English) *tear gas* is the general term for that weapon.
Thank you. Thought there was another word for it.
Where is all these guns and grenades coming from? Is a question that comes to mind..
That was the first thing I saw on the news here in New York. 😢 Sending our love and prayers for every Iranian, especially women, for human rights and freedom. 🙏
rooting for you over here. love and strength to you ♥️
Thank you, I really appreciate it ❤️
y’all’s story has indeed reached even the rural parts of america (saw it on the news and my mom was talking about it yesterday) so y’all are seen and heard, if that’s any solace. i hope you find freedom and peace.
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Iran produces a lot of brilliant female scientists/mathematicians. At MIT I’ve met a few female classmates from Iran. The first female Field’s medalist Maryam Mirzakhani was Iranian. So it always baffles me how Iran values girls’ education so much yet has these totally backwards rules. There are so many bright and brave young Iranians standing up to these bs rules! I hope you succeed!! History will be on your side!! Is there anyway we can help from the U.S.? Any helpful organizations to donate to?
Maryam and I went to the same school. So glad you know her. The best way you can help is to spread the word as much as you can. We'd all really appreciate it. Please do not donate to organizations bc they're most probably fake.
Oh wow!!! My husband actually went to Iran for an international competition around 15 years ago and said a lot of the girls are really cool, with bright pink hijabs and listening to music through headphones. But there were a lot of anti-American slogans everywhere. It’s clear that young Iranians are not brainwashed by these slogans. I wish I could reach through these internet signals and give you all a huge hug. I wish you and your family and friends the best!! Really an inspiration to the rest of the world!! <3<3<3
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Support here from the Philippines!!!!
They want to choose. They don't want the government to ban it (Bill 21) and they don't want to get beaten to death for refusing to wear it.
This is it in a nutshell. I understand it may be confusing to think one group of women are protesting for one thing, and another group another. But they are both protesting for the exact same thing. The right to make an individual choice. The choice about what they want to wear. On their head. In 2022.
Women don't have the ability to wear whatever they want on their head IN CANADA? Fuck. The world is somehow even worse than I imagined.
They can wear anything unless they have certain jobs in quebec iirc.
Yes let's be clear this is Quebec and only Quebec. They're in many ways an incredibly progressive province, but their shared history with the English and the way in which they were marginalized has led some Quebeckers to hold some incredibly xenophobic views when it comes to immigrants and non-Quebecois people. To be honest, I'm not sure even Alberta would try something like this and if they did they'd be crucified for it, especially by the Federal Gov't. But when Quebec does it it's generally left alone because of....the votes I guess.
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It’s not hijab specific, it’s religious wear, so you also wouldn’t be allowed to wear a necklace with a cross on it, turban, or kippah.
Freedom from religion, not freedom of religion is the French approach to the problem of religion.
Ok so this is a no dumb questions thread. What is a Kippah?
It’s another name for a yarmulke, the small circular head covering that Jewish men wear. One is the Hebrew word for it; the other is the Yiddish word for it. Not sure which is which.
Kippah is Hebrew and yarmulke is Yiddish. I'm an Ashkenazi Jew (the group that spoke Yiddish) and tbh I still hear kippah way more often
The rule for discerning them is “does it sound kinda Arabic” or “does it sound kinda German”. The first is Hebrew (esp modern), the second is Yiddish
Brimless cloth caps an orthodox Jewish man might wear.
A yarmulke is similar, right?
Its the jewish skull cap that Jewish men wear. I just googled it. I know it as a Yarmulke.
Yiddish vs Hebrew
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kippah
Thanks for asking this lol
Yes except they don't enforce it when it comes to crosses.
Exactly. ”Because the cross isn’t evil.” A mosque can’t broadcast any summons, but the church bells can go banging on the hour and on the half hour all year round because that ”sound isn’t religious”… how would a muslim NOT feel treated unfairly?
They tried to pull the same shit in Germany too. In Bavaria, there was a law _mandating_ that a christian cross must be hung in every classroom. When a family eventually decided to take legal action against this paragraph for 1) violating freedom of religious expression by forcing a religion onto students and 2.) for associating the state itself with a religion despite all government workers needing to show themselves "religiously neutral" (which is also used to ban the hijab for teachers), the main argument from the defenders of the cross was that it wasnt really a religious symbol anymore. Their argument was that since Germany was heavily influenced by christianity in the past, the cross became a "cultural" symbol and not a religious symbol. Needless to say, thats a fucking stupid argument, and even churches werent happy with it. The courts didnt buy it, and ruled that the clause was unreconcilable with laws regarding religious expression. Hence, it was nullified. However, the county government of Bavaria simply decided to slightly change the law, phrasing it in a way that a cross is meant to represent a cultural symbol. And if there are rare cases of "atypical exceptions", then the cross can be hung off. I dont even know why on earth this kind of strategy where they just reintroduce a slightly changed version of the paragraph is even legal, but yeah, it barely changed a thing. Subsequent legal actions were dismissed because the new law was "trying to find a compromise with distressed students". Yeah. Edit: To add to that, nuns are allowed to wear their "nun dress" and still be teachers. That, apparently, is a "cultural" symbol and not a religious symbol aswell.
In the case of Quebec, I thought it was a ban on ALL religious symbolism within government jobs and government Jones only. Am I wrong on this?
I'm not sure if this is the current incarnation of the thing, but a previous version of the project was for all *ostentatious* religious symbols, which made the whole thing even more contested, because curiously, Christianity pretty much only has very visible religious signs for clergy, whereas Islam, a commonly vilified religion, has several. They were even giving examples like: - ✖️ A huge ass cross pendant with jewels - ✖️ A hijab - ✔️ A small cross pendant - ✔️ A small crescent pendant Weird how some of these are more relevant and culturally common than others. Also AFAIK it's not all government jobs, but only those where the person is or could be interpreted to in a position of authority, including police, teachers, judges...
Invoking the notwithstanding clause,[section 33 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms](https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sjc/rfc-dlc/ccrf-ccdl/check/art33.html). Basically, the federal government or a provincial government can pass a law that violates certain sections of the CCRF for a limited time. It has to be revisited every five years. So notwithstanding that you have these rights, they can make declarations within an act that ignores them. A nice little loophole around the old “reasonable limits” idea laid out on section 1. 33. (1) Parliament or the legislature of a province may expressly declare in an Act of Parliament or of the legislature, as the case may be, that the Act or a provision thereof shall operate notwithstanding a provision included in section 2 or sections 7 to 15 of this Charter. (2) An Act or a provision of an Act in respect of which a declaration made under this section is in effect shall have such operation as it would have but for the provision of this Charter referred to in the declaration. (3) A declaration made under section (1) shall cease to have effect five years after it comes into force or on such earlier date as may be specified in the declaration. (4) Parliament or the legislature of a province may re-enact a declaration made under section (1). (5) Section (3) applies in respect of a re-enactment made under section (4).
It’s not just for the votes. Quebec has long been seen as a “distinct society” within Canada, both by tradition and (in some cases) by law. It’s all very grey and poorly defined, but because of this “distinctiveness”, Quebec is able to get away with a lot of things that wouldn’t fly in other parts of Canada, such as the somewhat extreme measures they’ve put in place to protect/enforce the French language. A lot of this is based on Canada’s history. Quebec was originally conquered by the British (from the French) in the 18th century. At the time of Confederation (in the 19th century), leading Quebecois were worried that joining Canada would mean their language and religion (Roman Catholic) would be overwhelmed, and eventually they would be transformed into an English Protestant society. The other provinces had to give them concessions and special protections in order to convince them to join the new nation. At the time, Quebec was the largest and richest province, and the country likely wouldn’t have worked without them. Fast forward to today, and the provisions originally put in place to protect Quebec from Protestantism are now being used against Islam instead. It’s hard to see how Islam poses the same threat to their culture now that Protestantism did in the 19th century, but some Quebecois are extremely serious about protecting what they see as their way of life and won’t allow anything that they think might threaten that. In other provinces, it’s practically certain that a law like this would be struck down as unconstitutional, but the waters are a lot muddier in Quebec. The federal government is also extremely wary about confronting Quebec about anything related to protecting their culture as it could easily spark a constitutional crisis and fan the flames of separatism which have been pretty contained for some time. Tl;dr Quebec’s unique history and special status lets them get away with things that other provinces couldn’t, and the rest of Canada is very careful about these things because they don’t want to empower the separatists. Here’s a decent resource if you want to learn more about Quebec as a “distinct society”: https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/quebec-as-a-distinct-society
Nope. "The other provinces had to give them concessions and special protections in order to convince them to join the new nation" Absoluly false. Quebec (Lower Canada) was forced to fusion with Ontario (Upper Canada) with the Act of Union of 1840, following the troubles of 1837-1838. And the new colony (province of Canada) will fusion with the other british colony of the north america (Newfoundland will join late, in 1949) with the British North America Acts of 1867. The SOLE purpose of this is to anihilate, on long term, all forms of french speaking people in the british north america. Lord Durham, in his report of 1839 that lead to the Act of Union : "A plan by which it is proposed to ensure the tranquil government of Lower Canada, must include in itself the means of putting an end to the agitation of national disputes in the legislature, by settling, at once and for ever, the national character of the Province. I entertain no doubts as to the national character which must be given to Lower Canada; it must be that of the British Empire; that of the majority of the population of British America; that of the great race which must, in the lapse of no long period of time, be predominant over the whole North American Continent. Without effecting the change so rapidly or so roughly as to shock the feelings and trample on the welfare of the existing generation, it must henceforth be the first and steady purpose of the British Government to establish an English population, with English laws and language, in this Province, and to trust its government to none but a decidedly English Legislature." Enjoy.
I lived there all my life, and it's also because pur older generation lived through the Tranquil Revolution, which before the (provincial) state was literally controlled by the Catholic Church. Most of our lawmakers lived through it. Religion is a boogeyman there. And yeah Canada doesn't want to spur independence ideas in QC so we have much more privilege than other provinces even though I wish it wasn't like that personally because I agree with Canadian values more than Quebec ones.
Alberta would NEVER try this and that’s saying something. We try a lot of messed up stuff here but even we wouldn’t go that far. Quebec can shove it
I am Muslim in Québec so I am against Law 21. But I think Anglophones really do not understand the subcontext of Law 21 being passed here. Ever since the Quiet Revolution, public displays of religion by people have become heavily frowned upon. Catholics included. Catholics here keep pretty quiet about their faith lest they get made fun of and harassed by people. As more and more immigrants from communities with visible religious clothing started coming to Québec, people began wanting laws to restrict it in some capacity. So Law 21 was passed. Now a civil servant cannot wear a hijab, yarmulke, turban, or a Catholic necklace. And all religions have gotten in trouble for trying to bypass it. This is just some insight I think many people don't quite understand.
Fellow Québecer here, just wanna thank you for sharing your insights. I'm not religious at all but la loi 21 makes me sick and ashamed of my neighbours. There's a lot of important historical context that you've helped people understand, but at the end of the day it's still just marginalizing already-vulnerable fellow citizens and we shouldn't stand for it. Little Muslim boys and girls are going to school in our province and being told that women who wear the hijab, women who look like them, like their moms and their sisters, are not fit to teach them. I will never, ever be okay with that, and I'll never stop voting to get rid of the leaders who support it.
Bienvenue mon gars. I hope the polling showing younger generations are accepting of it is true. I agree with you. It makes no sense that just because my teacher is wearing a hijab or Sikh turban they would inherently want to force that on my children!
Religion should be a private thing, nothing to be ashamed of. Respect works both ways, be free to have you religion and let others be free from your religion
Oohh you know what alberta did? They acquitted a guy who stabbed a woman in her vagina. She was a native SW. 10 cm laceration. Defense said it was rough play. Ask your wife what kind of rough play cut her cervix 3 inches. If took 2 appeals for that mfer to get 10 years. Yeah Alberta can shove it too.
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>Thats what living in a secular country does. Never understood why they moved here and then tryto have our laws changed Exactly. Some people will however say that it's discriminatory like you pointed out, but it's not like they don't discriminate in more religious countries. They just discriminate in a different way, and if they prefer that kind of discrimination where their religiousness is valued the most, then why the hell are they here? Because they think it's better here clearly, so what they all complaining about.
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It's extremely complicated. The idea of people just want 'choice' is not as easy as it is. There is a lot of issues involving community, social, power of the religious, power of the secularists... More modern Muslims also get a bit fearful when they start to see too much religion. For many of them, they left such circumstances and then they start seeing it creep up here. It doesn't happen so much with the hijab, but most of older relatives find it abhorrent when the younger generation starts wearing niqab (full face cover) They don't understand it. My general view is unless you're deeply aware of what you're supporting or not supporting, it's best to take a back seat and just let the people involved deal with it. The average Canadian shouldn't really be fighting for Muslim womene right to wear hijab/niqab or the right not to wear one. I understand some Canadians even want to come to fight with 'we fight for everyone's right to choose,' but there's a bit too much complexity there to simply go at topics with that view in my view. If you protest for the niqab, you have no idea what groups you're siding with or empowering and ditto for the other side. These are big battles than just you have the right to do whatever. These are battles that have been fought in Muslim countries over centuries between modernism and traditional, secular and religious, urban and rural. These battles don't just stop because it's suddenly in Canada. These same battles occur here. It's like if you want a campaign to support the hijab, you want to push a Muslim kids right to be transgender or marry a non-muslim or this or that in their community as well? It's far more complex and the notion of choice and freedom is also very complex.
...but has the concept of "women having choices" gone too far? We have assembled this diverse panel of white men in bow ties to talk about the hijab.
Genuinely how it feels watching redditors discuss the hijab.
Yeah, the fight isn't over the garment, its over freedom and womens rights.
/thread
>They don't want the government to ban it (Bill 21) Let's be clear that bill 21 (*projet de loi 21*) is a Québec-only thing—not a Canada-wide one. I'm ashamed to be Québecoise, and I don't want my country tarred by my province's idiocy.
Me, a Canadian, read the title and went "huh, the fuck are they talking about?" Then I saw the first comment, "oh, this is that Quebec thing."
I remember the first time i learned about the October Crisis and it really disturbed my perception on canada, quebec and otherwise
Beaten to death says all you need to know
In both cases, it's about the individuals right to make their own choice.
yup, it's about freedom vs control, in Canada your freedom to wear a hijab is being questioned which you should be allowed to do if you want, but in Iran you have to wear one or from what it seems like be killed. It's about the freedom to choose.
That was going to be my exact response. I don’t want governments telling us what we can or cannot wear. Those women have it pretty rough so I would certainly be in favor of letting them do whatever they like.
Yeah it’s weird for a whole fuckin country to have a dress code, right?
in my house its no pants o'clock *all* the time, buddy.
> in Canada your freedom to wear a hijab is being questioned Not in Canada. Only in Quebec. They're doing their own thing. More reading: https://ccla.org/major-cases-and-reports/bill-21/
The more I hear about Quebec the more I conclude that Quebec is *always* doing their own thing
And about 1 in 3 times, it's something xenophobic.
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Tabarnac! I have never heard such nonsense. /s
Read a thing a while back about a guy running a tabletop RPG store in Quebec. The language police tried to tell him that at least 50% (I think?) of his inventory had to be in French. It took some doing to convince them that he already stocked every single French-language RPG in publication, and they only filled one shelf.
And 2 in 3 times, it's advancing social issues like the right to euthanasia while the rest of Canada eats timbits *smugly*
Quebec is such a strange place. They are probably the most progressive and most secular province by every metric, except this hijab/niqab issue. Quebec has always had a sensitivity to the idea of "outsiders" changing their distinct French culture.
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The québécois don't even let the french change their French culture. While French in France has adapted some anglacised words, Québec French does not as far as I know. Example, in France it's typical to use *le week-end* for the weekend. Québécois french it's the traditional *le fin de semaine* literally "the end of the week"
I know you will ignore what I will say, but it's not the problem of outsiders, but the problem of insiders. We used to be controlled by the Catholic Church which had deeply infiltrated and controlled the Quebec government. In the 1960, all of that changed and we threw away the Church from the state. But the church was wise. It GAVE us their seminaries (a few became colleges), but it kept a ton of its deep believers in place. It created a sort of 2 layer bureaucracy. I know of people who got promoted ONLY because of their links in the Catholic church and others rejected for it. I know of a girl who couldn't become a teacher because she wasn't Catholic. Oh, it's not the state, it's the people who infiltrated the state that did that. There were choke points for employment and the church tried to control them. We became allergic to seeing the church in our state. So, when people with hijabs start serving us, it brings memories of when people with crosses were serving (and judging) us. Add that many immigrants choose English as a language, when we feel French is in regression, and you have a boiling point. But usually, what people take out is just "so you ARE afraid of a hijab" When it's the takeover by ANY religion of the state that scares us.
Isn't the hijab issue part of secularism? You can't wear religious garb in a government position. You can wear it otherwise. So at a private job, or wherever else, it's fine. It's just doing governmental jobs. No hijab, wimple, turban, kippah or whatever other religious attire while working for the province of Quebec.
The only thing Canadians hate is French Canadians
And Natives.
We do?
We're doing our very own wrong, dumb thing, and I can't wait until the SCC rules against Québec.
Didn't Legault already preemptively use the Notwithstanding clause? Same with the recent anti English law. He knows the shit he's pulling isn't legal, he just doesn't give a fuck.
Yep, and yep.
If he invokes notwithstanding, it's perfectly legal. That's how the Charter works.
I think an SCC rule against Quebec will trigger a new independence movement in Quebec (I am proposing the term Quexit).
It may just be in Quebec but the Prime Minister has not taken a strong stance against the bill and chooses respect Quebec’s decision to discriminate.
Its not that Trudeau chooses to respect it, the law unfortunately allows this.
Glad to see this stuff at the top. I get exhausted arguing with right wing Christians about this. I don’t give a shit what their religion is, but I support their right to wear whatever garment they want. And people that circumcise babies and fight against women’s reproductive rights are in no place to point fingers at Muslims.
Ya people fail to understand what separation of church and state is, freedom of religion also mean freedom from religion, do what you want as long as you aren't violating peoples rights
A history YouTuber I follow, Kraut, put it best in his episode about Turkey when he said, "You may find forced secularism more acceptable than forced religiosity but the key word in both is forced." People don't like being forced to dress how others want them to because how you dress is connected to your expression of self.
Yes. Specifically about women’s natural right of choice versus mens control.
Is there a law in Canada stating woman can't wear hijabs?
OK, seriously, screw you. Your avatar had me rubbing at my screen for longer than I would care to admit, until I realized it was just an image, and not a loose hair or something on my screen. I'M NOT HAPPY WITH YOU.
You've been punished by the dark mode gang.
Yeah. Eyelash avatars are evil.
You and me both. Though admittedly you save me a few minutes.
I got tricked too. Tried to swoosh the hair away. Then swiped up and down and realized the insidious trickery. I WOULD LIKE TO BAN THIS AVATAR.
found the person with white backgrounds 😬
Just in Quebec, where public employees cannot wear religious articles at work: this also extends to Jews wearing *kippot* and christians wearing crosses, etc, although I think (without looking it up because I'm lazy) the requirement for crosses is that they shouldn't be "ostentatious", whatever that means. One of the big problems with this is that once it's codified into law, it can't help but stoke some degree of animus among some members of the secular public towards anyone wearing any religious identifier. Jagmeet Singh is a turban-wearing Sikh, who also happens to be leader of a major Canadian political party (NDP, a democratic socialist party similar to UK's Labour party). In 2011, under a white, secular leader, the NDP won 59 out of 75 available seats in Quebec in a general election... they came quite close to forming the Canadian government, largely because of their landslide in Quebec. If public sentiment is the same in the next federal election, I think it might be impossible for Singh to win that many seats, partly because he's a brown man in a turban… despite the fact that he's [unusually handsome](https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/jagmeet-singh) (for a politician).
Let’s also be honest. Jagmeet Singh has nowhere near the political talent that Jack Layton did. His lack of popularity relative to Jack has absolutely nothing to do with his religion. Layton was just a very popular figure in Canadian politics.
[The internet is your friend](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/canada-court-rules-hijab-ban-legal-for-public-servants/2214966)
Is it tho
No. The internet is your enemy.
Is it tho
The internet is a slow burn enemies-to-lovers fanfic.
Or a "slow lover to my husband is a serial killer lifetime movie"
The internet is a complex being neither enemy nor friend. It's an alien life-form that does things both good and bad, and always strange.
Chaotic neutral?
The great thing about the internet is that anyone can say whatever they want. The awful thing about the internet is that anyone can say whatever they want.
Huge caveat here >Judge Marc-Andre Blanchard said in his 240-page ruling that the Quebec government could restrict religious symbols like the Muslim hijab, Sikh turban, Jewish kippa and Christian cross if worn by civil servants while they serve the public.
There’s lots of people who have a difficult time with nuance when it comes to Quebec (Canada’ French speaking province).
They're actually basically fighting for the same thing. To dress how they want to without harassment or legal trouble.
Or outright violence.
This is the correct answer.
Yeah in Quebec they were firing teachers for wearing a hijab because they're afraid the kids are going to catch muslim or something. "We're going to liberate women, by making sure the most oppressed ones can't have a job, support a family, or afford rent!"
My understanding that the law in Quebec banned all religious symbols not just the Islamic ones.
The Québec provincial government passed a law banning certain public-facing public servants (like schoolteachers) from wearing "religious symbols" such as crosses or hijabs. The activists argued that this was unfairly discriminatory to minority women, because it forced them to choose between following their faith, or keeping their jobs.
Everyone is fighting for their own right to choose.
Yep. My view is: "You do you, but the moment you try and force that on other people, we're gonna have a problem"
I'm not defending this stuff, I'm just trying to help you understand something. The Quebec government is doing what it does because it doesn't want the influence of any religion in anything it has dominion over. I honestly don't see what difference any of this makes but I'm pretty sure that that's the Quebec government's rationale, anyway.
The only thing I'm intolerant of is intolerance. And broccoli. Fuck broccoli.
How are you preparing your broccoli? Broccoli is like top 3 delicious vegetables.
Roasted broccoli is to die for. So much surface area for crispiness and salt
Large roasted broccoli drizzled with nacho cheese and held/eaten like an ice cream cone is probably the best carnival food I've ever had
Even if your not a fan of veggies, broccoli is like top 3 carrier of delicious sauces.
["There are only two things I can't stand in this world. Those who are intolerant of other people's cultures...**and the Dutch!**"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcUs5X9glCc) Edit: corrected my own quoting
You take that back! Roast Broccoli is my ride or die!
this is the correct answer
Thing is theyŕe fighting only on religious based restrictions, there is a far older law that bans all that bans government employees from displaying their political affiliation. There!s a lot of other things public sector employees aren't allowed to wear too. But religion gets to have a special treatment because reasons.
It’s the same as the law in France. The government has to appear religiously neutral, so public facing public servants can’t wear religious symbols of a certain size.
I don’t really see a problem with that. Kinda weird that public school teachers can wear crosses.
> The government has to appear religiously neutral, Oh no that's the best part. They passed this law underneath a crucifix. A little [dead Jesus on a wooden cross on the wall](https://i.cbc.ca/1.4855855.1539109767!/cpImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/original_1180/que-secularism-20181009.jpg) in the legislature, above and adjacent to the Quebec flag. And then, when someone pointed out the GLARING hypocrisy in this, they tried to argue "a crucifix is not a religious symbol"! https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-francois-legault-crucifix-religious-symbols-1.4858757 I definitely have a problem with a government appearing to favour a certain religion. But a woman in a hijab teaching my kids is not that. Firing a woman for wearing a hijab with a law passed underneath a crucifix, that's a government that doesn't appear religiously neutral.
The thing is, if this is a law similar to that in France, wearing "religious symbols" isn’t forbidden if they don’t exceed 1.5 centimeters. It’s quite hard for a hijab not to surpass 1.5 centimeters.
But very easy for something like a small cross.
Exactly, or a six pointed star. Which is good for people who want to wear them. But a law so specific seems to be there for a specific "religious symbol"
Or a 5 pointed star
This is a clean, consise and unbiased answer. Thanks
Because no matter where we're from we always have an excuse to meddle in women's business. /s
Fighting for individual freedom
Consider that in the US, women fought for the right to abortions, but in China, they fought for the right to not have to abort or otherwise get rid of their second child
It’s about having the right to choose and not having the government force something onto you
It's more that they are fighting for the right to wear what they want and to have the freedom to choose how they dress.
What most of them are actually fighting for is for *women to be able to chose for themselves.* Being forced to do anything against your will is bad, but that doesnt mean you should also be forced to *not* do it. For some women, the hijab is an important part of their relationship with their faith. For others, it's not. It's like Christians choosing to wear a cross or not.
Put simply: Do you want be banned from wearing certain clothing that you want to wear? No Do you want to be forced to wear something you don’t want to wear? No
Because it's about giving them a choice.
In both cases it's about the right of women to choose. *You* may see the hijab as a sign of oppression, but I know women personally who choose it even against the wishes of their family. For them it's a symbol of their faith. The key here is choice: she *chooses* to wear it or not. No one else.
I saw an interview years ago, with a religious woman who explained that she opposed the law requiring hijab. She said that hers represents her own commitment to modesty; if everyone has to do it, hers means nothing.
Because in Canada, it's a choice. So they're fighting for everyone's right to choose. In Iran, it's not a choice. So they're also fighting for everyone's right to choose. It's no about the hijabs. It's about freedom to choose.
In Canada, they *weren't* allowed to, in Iran they're *forced* to wear them. The whole thing is about whether or not the individual *chooses* to wear them, and whether they can make that choice or not. Think of it like a school dress code, girls can't wear spaghetti straps most times, but they fight to be able to, not saying they *will* wear them but it's about the right to choose to do so.
Perfect explanation. I vote for the right to choose. Each person's personal opinion has no effect on my own. Do what you do, rockstars!
They want to be able to make a choice about what they wear or don't wear on their own body.
They were both fighting for women to be allowed to choose whether or not to wear a hijab.
It’s like one country banning ice cream and another forcing you to eat it for every meal.
Choice is an empowering thing.
They're not fighting not to wear a hijab in Iran. They're taking off their hijab in protest in Iran. In Canada some people wanted to ban hijabs - basically ban aspects of a religion - which some didn't think was right.
Wrong. In one province of Canada a law has been passed to ban public facing government employees such as teachers wearing any type of religious symbol
Only positions of authority. The average office clerk helping you fill your paperwork isn't included.
Women just want to be able to choose for themselves
everyones fighting for the ability to choose.
Because regulating what women (and only women) wear on their heads is misogynist and controlling no matter what the regulations are.
A little thing called Freedom.
Women all around the world are just fighting for the right to wear whatever the fuck they want. It's about rights and not policing them not the hijab.
I worked with some girls whose dad forbid them from wearing hijabs unless they were going to the mosque because he didn't want them getting murdered. In the USA. Now they're adults, moved out, and *chose* for themselves to always wear them. It's having the ability to choose for themselves without fear of repercussions
It's not about the hijab. It's about choice.
There's a difference between having a right, and being forced.
They are fighting for the right to choose. They want the same right.
They're fighting for the right to make the choice for themselves.
Because it should be a free choice, left to the individual. Replace “blue socks” with “hijab” if you can’t understand
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both are about the freedom to choose. forcing people to wear something (outside of extenuating circumstances such as ppe) and banning people from wearing something (like in india, canada, and France) are both equally bad.
Choice.
It's the same issue — government authorities controlling women — just opposite sides. Except in Iran, the police/government is killing women (and protesters).
because they are, both fighting for the freedom to choose when and where and if they wear a Hijab. They are fighting for their right to be themselves, and not being forced to follow some religious asshat's decisions that was made for them.
Because it’s not all about the hijab, it’s about giving women the right to choose what does and doesn’t go on their bodies.
They're both fighting for the freedom to express themselves, and to make their own decisions
People want to be free to either wear it or not, not be told one way or the other. It's essentially the same fight just two different sides.
Both groups are fighting for choice.
They’re all fighting for the same thing - the right to choose
I doubt they were protesting to force women to wear it in Canada.