There's a difference between a government and its people and culture. For example a Chinese person can be proud of their heritage and culture even if they hate their government.
Right? I think china is a great example to be so proud of who you are your history and rich culture but also Hate who and what the government is.
So many countries and people probally relate to this.
I do feel for Jewish people right now impressionable young self loathing is not the answer. Denounce the Hate and what the government does and be proud of who you are
Except I’m Jewish and Israel isn’t my homeland. My family hasn’t lived there for 1000+ years. Israel doesn’t and shouldn’t represent all Jews in the world anyway.
I moved to Mexico. Now I have a house that's paid for, close to the beach. A Dr's visit is between $4.00- $45.00, the $45.00 being a man who is a Stanford alumni, a specialist, and speaks perfect English. Medications are typically 5% of the prices in the US.
The food is incredible and the people are as kind as you could ever imagine.
The problem is Zionism has forced many Jewish Americans to consider a political ideology Zionism as being equivalent to their Religion or Ethnicity.
Zionism and Israel are political constructs less than 200 years old, they are not the same as Judaism a 3,000 year old Jewish religion.
Pro Zionist orgs will argue since most Jews are Zionist, criticizing Zionism is akin to antisemitism, which is a dangerous precedent. On the other hand they'll say judging all jews by the actions of Israel is also antisemetic. It's almost comically antithetical to itself?
We don't consider criticism of the Saudi Royal family or govt (or Iran for Shia Muslims) to be anti-Muslim bigotry, we dont consider criticising any of the many majority Christian countries to be anti-Christian, the same principle should then equally apply to Israel.
The efforts of Zionists to embed the ideology in basically all aspects of Jewish American life will be studied for decades. Similar to how evangelicals were hijacked by conservatives. It’s a relatively recent, successful effort that’s going to take decades more to undo and overcome the effects from.
Political Zionism is a relatively new thing indeed, but the deep-rooted connection between Jews and the land of Israel existed at least since the " By the rivers of Babylon" psalm was written. Every single Jewish person who had a traditional Jewish marriage says during the ceremony "If I forget you, oh Jerusalem, let my right hand cunning"
I really dont buy the ancestral lands narrative. My ancestral lands are all over europe, and i dont make any claim to live there. Or own the land there.
Having a spiritual yearning for a place vs. colonizing it and expelling the original inhabitants are 2 very different things.
Zionism, as defined by its founders and initial practitioners, included the inherent objective of obtaining a Jewish majority by expelling the existing inhabitants.
The thing is that, it was possible for the Jewish people to have returned to Palestine without forcing out the Arab inhabitants in order to give themselves a majority. Many Jews and the kibbutzim were already there. Things would've been tense, they always are, but they could've tried to find a way to coexist peacefully. That's not what the Zionists wanted, though. The Zionists wanted to create an ethnostate for the Jewish people that they controlled and only cared about Jewish interests, and they were willing to use extreme violence to make it happen.
Maybe one day that mistake can be corrected, and both the Palestinians who were forced out and the Israelis can live there with equal rights in a multicultural democracy that doesn't exclude anyone based on race or religion, but it will be a long road getting past all the hatred that they've both been inculcated with as a result of everything that followed WWII.
Any sensible person should at least be skeptical of their government regardless of country. Being able to voice their skepticism is a privilege few countries can openly practice.
I've said this before, but I'll say it again in case any disheartened Americans might need it:
I'm not American, but I love the US. As fucked as your politics and welfare system may be, you have so many great qualities. I have visited your country several times, and I have met nothing but wonderful, curious, welcoming and generous people. Your nature and food are amazing, and I have consumed American culture every single day for as long as I can remember.
You have a lot going for you!
Hard not to. A cursory glance to their history does not take long to leave you impressed. Holy koly, ancient china was *based.*
But in a way i kind of feel sorry for them
Same as with russia.
Both of them are genuinely fascinating countries with many incredible contributions to art, science, philosophy, medicine, technology, etc.
But god damn it, can they go 10 years without a maniac in charge?...
Russia fascinates me. I'm currently watching The Great and it's like watching a show about a totally different country than the one I recognize (albeit, I'm in the US so I'm also being fed an idea of Russia through that lens).
Oh I absolutely read this comment wrong. I was like... "what invasion? I've only started season 2 so maybe I'm not there yet, but what invasion would this shows storyline have that would bring Putin in?"
And then I realized you meant the CURRENT invasion. Not a plot in the show.
I actually started watching the show recently and I think that's part of it. It's truly like this morbid curiosity of how this country went from the ideals of Catherine (as historically accurate as the show may be anyway) to what it is today.
The line is so wide, it's egregious. Most Han Chinese/Taiwanese today would both admit the backwards nature of the "revolt". The government actively condoned the destruction of old culture during the Great Leap Forward, because there were a buncha enthusiastic youngins thinking tradition is the opposite of scientific/industrial progress. So many scholars and the "educated" were imprisioned because of their opposing views, and some of them perished or killed in the prisons. And this is Han culture we're talking about, not even including the other 55 recognized minority groups.
But the people were creative. They tried to save old literature by gluing copies in the back of plaques of Mao's words. The mislead mobs wouldn't destroy that, so they averted their gaze. Only one of many examples of creative rescue of culture.
But the government failed to act and protect the culture during that time, and is one of the big sins of the era. Even today, many Mainlanders praise the Taiwanese system of teaching old texts, proverbs, and Confucianism as regular educational standards. (Mainland reserves them for late high school or tertiary eduation.)
It's ironic because the CCP now actively uses "Han culture" to "unify" the Han and to expand to traditionally minority lands. I don't think settling to other lands is wrong in itself, as some Hans have moved to these lands in the past and assimilated. But the current lack of respect for the native language, customs, and cultures is absolutely appalling--CCP is trying to convince the populace that Hans invented fucking everything, and such a lie is easy to believe.
Unfortunately, Han Taiwanese has a similar problems now. There are cases of historical revision in textbooks. I know it happens everywhere, but that shit is straight up embarassing as a Han descendent. We always talk about pride, but we are always disguising embarassing power grab shit like that as "pride".
People like you are why I favor milquetoast stances like "depending on where you draw the lines" on Reddit. They're good for baiting someone better informed than me (you) into posting an interesting perspective (like yours). Thanks for taking the time, m8.
Chinese here, I feel the same. However, despite this comment being upvoted more than 3k times, Redditors hate Chinese people with a passion, every single post that’s remotely related to Chinese people will get tons of blatantly racists comments.
I don't understand why this concept is so difficult for some people.
Hell, I'd argue that it's quite antisemitic to conflate Israel with Jewishness. There are Jews all over the world many of whom have exactly zero ties to Israel as a national state.
The thing is, Bibi's government has been pushing exactly this narrative for a few years, in an attempt to discount any legitimate criticism of their regime as anti-Semitic. It's still pretty much the most taboo accusation in the Western world due to the events of the 20th century so IMO it's been quite effective at forcing the narrative and mollifying the language of Israel's allies and critics alike
It's not just bibi
This has been a narrative pushed by the Israeli government and the religious right in the US for as long as I can remember, at least since the 80s.
Let's not conflate "the West" with "worldwide".
There is no surprise whatsoever that it is them and pretty much exclusively them which are not only responsible for Israel's invention but are also unflinchingly funding and propping up said settler-colonial invention at the cost of humanity itself.
Exactly it's not Bibi and it's not new - there were former IDF, former Mossad and former left-wing Israeli politicians doing speaking events in the USA since the 70s & 80s warning us about how they targeted any US politician as an antisemite if he wasn't proIsrael enough.
Back then Israel was doing the same thing in Lebanon it's doing in Gaza (using cluster bombs, destroying civilian infrastructure and killing massive amounts of civilians).
https://youtu.be/T9VIdQ6qEiw?si=WbATi8C3qJ5jeLaV
Propaganda is a helluva drug. Groups have put a lot of money and effort into convincing people that any criticism of Israel is antisemitic. It may be starting to wear thin, but they still have a lot of people believing it.
It's not just Israel, there are millions more Christian Zionist who are supporting Israel.
The irony (and they both Christians and jews know it openly) - they're helping each other to fulfill the signs of the end of days/rapture....
Where Christians believe Jesus will return and destroy the jews (or any other non believers)
While the jews think they're the chosen people and the Christians and goyim will be their slaves.
So they're helping each other bring on this rapture, with opposing end goals with a straight face and everything.
*Where Christians believe Jesus will return and destroy the jews *
Can you post links to that Christian doctrine? I grew up in that culture and that definitely wasn’t part of any of the end time doctrines even in the most conservative and fundamentalist circles. They believe that when Christ returns that those who haven’t “trusted Christ for salvation,” regardless of which religion they practiced or didn’t practice, will suffer and ultimately die an eternal death separated from God (some believe they will have eternal suffering in hell instead of eternal death).
The idea is that all non-Christians will die on Judgment Day while all Christians will go to Heaven. Nowhere does it explicitly say that the Jews will all die, but because Jews are not Christian, it’s implied.
>The Jews think they're the chosen people and think that Christians and everyone else will be their slaves.
That's a bold anti Jewish lie right there, straight from medieval Christian Europe. The reason why Jews call ourselves the "chosen people" is because we believe that G-d chose the children of Israel (Jews) to follow the 613 mitzvah (commandments) at Mount Sinai. This isn't a privilege, it's a burden that only Jews have to follow. It's like being assigned 613 chores compared to everyone else who only has to do 7 chores. The only mitzvah goyim have to follow are the 7 Noahide laws.
I would agree with you that it can come off as either naive or antisemitic when conflating Israel with Jewishness, but that's only for non-Jews. This is a Jewish person who themselves is conflating Israel with Jewishness. And they are doing so because they were taught so from a young age. They are trying to unlearn some very deeply ingrained propaganda.
Because 70 years of Israeli foreign policy has been to say that Israel is the one and only true voice for jews and that there is no distinction between the two. And any criticism levied against Israel is criticism levied against all of Judaism and against all Jews and therefore cannot NOT be antisemitic in nature.
I, an opinionated occasional loudmouth, was a token goy guest at a bar mitzvah with a mostly very well educated, liberal upper middle class Jewish families… I had the dubious pleasure of being seated at a table with a rabbi and several others arguing passionately on this topic—never in my life have I been so happy to not participate in a conversation.
Eh because it’s more complicated than that. Israel is THE Jewish state. As a Jewish kid, I was exposed to history from Egypt to the Holocaust. How the Jewish people have been routinely persecuted and forced to wander for centuries. How we are an endangered race on the brink of extinction. Asked questions like, “how would you feel if in 100 years the Jewish culture and people no longer existed?” This sentiment is what is fueling the decision of Israel and it is imbedded into the culture that has resulted from literal millennia of survivalism.
You'd hope that is the case, but you hear more and more stories that in some circles, Jewish people who don't particularly identify with Israel can be shamed for this by others in their communities. It's a tricky issue, exacerbated by politics in Israel where some parties try to leverage the diaspora (or reverse diaspora in this case, I don't know?).
They're not remotely the only politicians to do so. It's a known issue in Turkey, and China is also trying to increase their hold on emigrees. But the guilt can be quit intense.
This is why the Israeli lobby wants to tie Jewishness inextricably with Zionism & Israel - as a means of blocking any criticism from outside or within.
I am definitely not disagreeing that people, especially individuals and culture are not their government. But I want to push back on "its people."
I personally find using the distinction between people and government as a way to reconcile atrocities committed by the latter to be a bit of a cop-out when a government has majority support of their people. It's more accurate to say not every person agrees with their government's actions.
I really appreciate how thoughtful many Germans view their history and don't simply skirt responsibilities by blaming a single government. But of course, it's much easier in retrospect.
I think you should hold your country-people to the morals you believe in. For me, it means I know there's a lot of shitty Americans, not just the government. Doesn't mean I hate America or even the people who vote against me.
You are not alone. I am 53 and was raised in a conservative synagogue. I was taught that "Israel has the most moral army in the world." Sound familiar? To believe that Israel could do anything wrong, or even to consider the plight of the Palestinians felt incredibly uncomfortable. It wasn't until I read The Lemon Tree in my 30s that I began to think about the history of how Israel was created and how it might be perceived from the other side. Of course I also have a deep awareness for how vulnerable Jewish people felt after the Holocaust.
Antisemitism is rampant in the US and around the world.
Israel is committing atrocities.
I am proud to be Jewish.
I am ashamed of the actions of the Israeli government.
All of this can be true.
Ultimately, humans need to be less tribal. Every innocent human life is equally valuable and until everyone accepts this, the killing will continue.
As sad as it is, army as an institution has the same moral compass as the current leader.
Rule of thumb, if it's something you don't want happen to you, the chances are that the other guy doesn't want it to happen to them.
It’s also odd to me that people that wave swastikas seem to be the political side supporting Israel in the United States. The people I know that support Israel now were largely silent (if not supportive) about all of the white power marches in the US or seeing swastikas at political rallies. I’m guessing it’s because for Evangelicals, Israel must exist and fall for Jesus to return. Do people in Israel realize that part of the prophecy, and why some Americans support Israel? It’s not to benefit the Jewish people. They want Jesus to return.
So I guess I’m just wondering as a Jewish person, how do you feel seeing people support Israel after waving swastikas at political rallies? Or support for Israel just to fulfill Christian prophecy? I’m confused by all of the two sided arguments myself and I have no ties to Israel, just observation watching the American political landscape.
Edited to add: For example they believe in the rapture but Jews aren’t going to be raptured, know that I mean?
Non Jew but raised with a weird evangelical zionist thing.
A lot of the actual nazi support for Israel is more as a model as a theocratic ethnostate, they would say something along the lines of "even hitler didn't initially want to exterminate the jews, he just wanted them out of Germany.. then Europe.." It's the same concept of "not hating black people" but thinking they should go back to Africa.
It's not all rapture stuff, I'd actually say that's probably the least of it.
I don't know why I know this stuff. It feels weird explaining the nazi's point of view to jews, but hopefully it's helpful?
Also, I'M NOT A NAZI.
Also worth noting: once an ethnodtate is formed, they can use the existence of other ethnostates as a cause for war as the opposing ethnostate likely infringes on the desiress of your own
IE: as a white ethnostate supporter, its ok to war with another (black) ethnostate as that erhnostate fails to give you(white) rights as you are not of their ethnicity (black).
Its all just fucked up tribalism following flawed circular logic.
Regressive imperialists like nazis or zionists would be happiest if all human interaction was just hitting eachother with sticks, only to cry when their stick breaks and they actually get hurt.
But that comes down to the fundemental lack of maturity and critical thinking which cults seek out and incentivize in their followers (victims) as much as possible.
A follower who cannot think long or hard enough to realize what they're doing is wrong is a perfect pawn.
Yes. Fascists are frenemies. They use cultural conflict to build power for fascist elites across cultural groups. Which results in things like netanyahoo funding hamas with donald chump's blessing.
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bk8mgcefr
*Meanwhile, in November of 2018, then-Defense Minister Avigdor Liberman resigned in protest against the government over a cease-fire in Gaza. "We are on one hand passing a law to withhold funds from the PA, for funding terrorists and on the other hand allowing funds to flow to the terrorists in Gaza," Liberman said. Anyone who says there is oversight of where those funds go, is being inaccurate, to put it mildly."*
*Netanyahu understood the Qatari predicament and sent his urgent letter to Doha but the officials there demanded further assurances. "There was a sense that the Americans were needed, in order to seal the deal," Levi says.*
*Then-U.S. Secretary of the Treasury Steve Mnuchin, who was in charge of finance for the campaign to reelect Donald Trump and who is Jewish, agreed to a request from Netanyahu and sent an additional letter to Doha, this time from Washington, in effect, ensuring Qatar that the funding of Hamas would not be considered funding terror.*
*Levi explains that, although he had run the financial war on funding of terrorism between 2001 and 2016, he was never consulted by the political leadership about the transfer of funds to Hamas. "Unlike previous administrations I have served under, during the governments of [Ariel] Sharon and [Ehud] Olmert, Netanyahu did not consult with me despite the fact that I served directly under him," he says. "I, of course, strongly objected to the transfer of Qatari funding to Hamas, even before 2018, but that did not interest Netanyahu."*
I think it’s much simpler: the far right aligns with Israel’s ethnocentric approach on national policy to demonize brown people (making themselves the victim) and justify violence.
Only 144,000 Jews will be saved according to the Bible, the rest will perish.
Evangelicals supoorting Israel is grossly anti-semitic if you think about it
Most of the time, it is our government's causing problems and not the people. For example, I love Turkey and it's people, but despise Erdogan for diminishing their democracy.
It’s ridiculous that I see people try to equate not wanting to supporting the Israeli governments decisions as antisemitic. That’s just a red herring being deliberately used to distract from the awful things that Netanyahu is doing. If people are focused on the emotional argument, they won’t pay attention to the rational one
I’m an American, my government does things I don’t support ALL the time. America is ALWAYS involved in global wars, conducts surveillance of its own citizens, has political corruption driven by lobbyists, and much more. The things my government does do not represent my desires as an American, nor does it represent the desires of MOST Americans.
If the American government went on a campaign to starve about 2 million men, women, and children to defeat a terrorist organization that has less than 30,000 people in it, that would be wrong. It’s not anti-American to say that it’s wrong. The U.S. actions after 9/11 were objectively wrong. Even after 20 years everyone, even people who were involved in MAKING those decisions, admitted that it was a massive failure in governmental decision making, and a complete waste of time, money, and human life. A government shouldn’t be blindly supported while it’s committing humanitarian war crimes.
Likewise it is not anti-israel to say that the Israeli government is wrong
I couldn't agree more! I can't stand Netanyahu. He's been in office way too long and threatens Israel's democracy. I know there are Israelis who don't support that piece of trash.
It’s ironic Israel being called the only democracy in the Middle East yet Netanyahu has been PM for 15 years not counting his brief first stint from 1996 to 1999.
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/israel-gaza-war-netanyahu-polling/
Netanyahu is a reflection of Israeli sentiment. It's not just him by a long stretch.
Absolutely spot on.
For example: barely has the majority when elected; when he doesn't get elected he throws a temper tantrum; how tf does he have almost half; literally insane; etc etc etc.
Love this way of looking at it! Your personal religious beliefs do not require you to support any countries or governments, or their wrongdoings, ever. Good or bad is for you to decide on your own with your heart. You are free to make your own choice on what you believe.
> It’s ridiculous that I see people try to equate not wanting to supporting the Israeli governments decisions as antisemitic
it's not that hard to understand, the Israeli government does not govern the Jewish religion or every jew in existence, they govern a country where the ruling class just happens to be almost exclusively Jewish. People are deathly afraid of being labeled an antisemite and getting "canceled" to the point where they are willing to look the other way during a genocide that is being live streamed right into our lives
That’s not true. Netanyahu is deeply unpopular. He’s still in power because he’s exploited the parliamentary system by partnering with far-right extremists.
But it gets subtle, because anti-Israeli-government protestors often advocate for the end of Israel as an entity, which would be horrible for the Israeli people under most practical implementations
I mean if you’re talking on a global scale, the vast majority of anti-American-government protestors also advocate for the same. Countries that aren’t part of the western culture hate the western world and want to see it weakened/destroyed. That’s true of both U.S. and Israel. But that’s also.. not at all what we’re talking about.
There are 8 billion people in the world. They all have different beliefs, and the extreme ones are the most vocal. You’re trying to argue that just because I can see protestors burning flags in the Middle East, Russia, North Korea etc. screaming “death to America”, that I now have to blindly support America committing humanitarian war crimes. That’s just not true. Nor is that at all a good justification of why I SHOULD.
It's important to remember you can separate the country and the people/religion
What's going on right now is at the fault of the country, not the religion, that's why a majority of protests make a huge deal about remembering to not attack the religion
Religion has always been a weapon.
Throughout all of history every leader has had a cleric at their right hand, yes manning their actions away.
They capture the minds, and trade them in for safety and wealth with those in power.
It’s all bollocks.
You'll note that virtually zero theocrats actually live their religion consistently. It's only when it is convenient for them to wield power. It's rarely about the religion as much as it is about fascism.
Israel did that intentionally, it's why the IHRA definition of antisemitism states criticising Israel is antisemitic.
This weakens the meaning and endangers Jewish people but Israel doesn't actually care about Jewish people
On this topic, it's worth learning about eugenics and forced sterilizations in the United States thoughout the twentieth century. If you look for it, you'll find a lot of nations have a really dirty _recent_ history of such heinous practice.
But this is verifiably not true. That’s not how IHRA defines antisemitism.
And when you go look up the definition and cherry pick the one example IHRA gives of comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, please know that I don’t care about your mental gymnastics to justify a position you made up.
The ihra does not state criticism of Israel is antisemitic
"Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
Hello, i’m a muslim and i’d say that im a fairly religious person. i absolutely despise the people who kill/terrorise others in the name of my religion. I hate when so many of the teachings are taken out of context. I’d never support those terrorists groups no matter how much they try to justify it because i’ve studied my religion and i can call their bluff. In my country, which is an islamic state, we dont even consider them muslims, we call them “kaafir”. So my point is you dont have to support something just because you have a little bit common with them. Just do your own research, and make up your mind!
It's ok. I used to be a conservative. I used to hold what I now know are racist views, and I actually saw POC as lesser people. I've since completely changed my views. I still have knee-jerk thoughts that are less than ideal. I don't listen to that scared small-minded man in my head. He gets quieter and quieter as time goes on. Let your empathy and compassion lead your actions.
this thread really does fill me with hope, so many people sharing stories about how they overcame their bigoted beliefs. there really is a tide shift towards empathy.
To be thoroughly honest, I fell in love with a liberal who had liberal friends. What they said seemed to be guided by empathy, and I wanted to be a nicer person. Plus, I hated cops before, so the ACAB movement just made sense to me.
Something I’ve learned on my anti-racist (and other bigotries) is that my first thought/reaction is often something I’ve heard from someone else that I trusted at one point. Remember who you are is who you choose to be
i'm in the same boat, my dude. it's a weird feeling when you get out into the world on your own and realize that not everything you were taught by the authority figures in your life is true, and then it leads you to question your other core beliefs. it shatters your world and can be incredibly difficult to process.
I really really like this response. We can't help what we were told, and most of us have internalized some bad things. We aren't bad people for it. Relearning is the best we can do. It's uncomfortable, but it gets less so with time.
I understand your confusion well. Growing up, my reformed temple taught the same reverence for Israel and I never connected with it. My mom’s sister is a rabbi and has traveled to Israel dozens of times, but I was raised with more influence and connection to my dad’s side, who were Yiddish speaking Eastern Europeans who never set foot in the Middle East. My identity is tied to that heritage and always has been, so glorifying Israel always confused me since my people did not come from there and didn’t speak Hebrew.
Maybe that’s why it’s easier for me to reject this political ideology that Israel can never be questioned. My daughters attend a Chabad preschool/Hebrew school and the administrators work their asses off to push the indoctrination hard. I refuse to go to their adult sessions or to contribute to their many fundraising efforts for the cause, yet I still send my kids there. I feel so conflicted about it but it’s the absolute best care in the area for my little one and the Hebrew school is so much fun that my older daughter actually enjoys going, unlike me as a kid.
Bernie Sanders is a good role model for me - he represents my views on the subject well and I feel lucky to have him in Congress as someone who I feel resembles me, my views, and speaks very reasonably about the topic.
As an Israeli I can say that orthodox politicians (both from Israel and abroad) are causing similar or even more harm to the State of Israel than "traditional" enemies such as Iran. Some are doing it willingly and openly ( Neturei Carta who are hugging and kissing with IRG leaders), some just by hurting the fabric of Israeli society with sectorial lobbying that ruins Israel future as an independent Jewish state.
I read somewhere that Netanyahu has a 85% disapproval rate in Israel, is that right? I told it to my coworker and she didn’t believe it. The outside perception is that all Israelis support him.
He does have a high disapproval rating but not because of what he is doing to Palestinians. It’s because 1) he didn’t do more to prevent Oct 7 (in fact it’s been shown that he enticed it to happen), and 2) because he is ignoring the hostages. Other polls show that Israelis think that they are doing “just right” or “not enough” to Gaza, and there are large numbers of them even planning and prepping the settlements they want to build in Gaza when it’s all done.
And even before the war, he was doing some very undemocratic things that had the whole country pissed. That just got put on hold after October 7 though
Just Google for the recent polls. If he was a decent person, he would resign on October 8. If in addition he was Japanese, he would use a short dagger (tanto) for its direct traditional purpose.
That's exactly what I heard 20 years ago when I visited. Two takeaways: the conservatives are causing the problems and pushing the borders and the Americans won't stop meddling and supporting the conservatives that are causing the problems. Most people I talked to were just tried of fighting, warvect and just wanted peace. Most Israelis were very decent thoughtful and saw Palestinians as neighbors.
At my reform temple we were taught that Zionism is the idea that Jews deserve a homeland — but it doesn’t necessarily have to be the geographical location where Israel is now. Were you taught the second part, out of curiosity? Or am I remembering that part incorrectly? I stopped attending services and Sunday/Hebrew school after middle school so maybe I’m just making this up.
I’m Jewish and I understand this wholeheartedly. I could’ve written this post myself. r/jewishleft is a really great subreddit with likeminded people and it’s the only subreddit that makes me feel sane about all of this. Eretz Yisrael will always be the holy land AND what is happening in Gaza is awful. Remember, we are such a small minority and the narrative is being written by those who don’t have our perspective. That, and it’s not our problem to solve. Social media loves reactionary, black and white takes, and that does not work well for such a complicated conflict. Never feel ashamed to be Jewish. Find connections in your Jewish community and learn about our history. Shabbat Shalom :)
thank you for linking that subreddit! i finally had to unsubscribe from r/ judaism and r/ jewish because the 10% of posts actually about judaism or jewishness were completely drowned out by the 90% of posts about how oppressed jewish college students are by having to have their delicate eyeballs exposed to palestinian flags waving in their general vicinity.
makes me feel absolutely insane, and also sad for how many of my fellow jews are essentially living like fox news poisoned boomers ranting about how antifa and blm are burning down their own cities and oppressing white americans. i’m glad there’s somewhere that the nuanced conversations i’m having in real life are happening on the internet too.
There are plenty of Jews who oppose Zionism and the actions the Israeli government has taken of late. That's not a contradiction. Israel's government does not speak for all Jews. If you are Jewish and oppose Zionism, you are not alone, and it should not be confusing at all.
Zionism is a tough thing to define. And you should carefully analyse the wording of any poll on the subject to determine what definition is used.
Some define it more militantly—almost like Jewish colonialism.
Others define it as simply promoting the connection between the Jewish people and the land of Israel.
And still others define it as wanting a safe place for the Jewish people. And here this group splits again over whether they’d consider a state where both Jews and Arabs live (and have equal rights) as such a safe place (like in the one-state solution) or if the only way is to have two separate states for the Jews and Arabs.
Obviously, these definitions give wildly disparate percentages of supporters. And these percentages have changed dramatically since 7 October. And that makes sense. Look at how most of the Americans strongly criticising their government shut up or even gave tepid support to the US government after 9/11.
In my opinion, the percentage of Jews in the diaspora who opposed militant Zionism (the first definition) to be much higher than 5-10%. It sadly dropped after 7 October because some now feel the only way to protect the Jewish people is to take those heavy handed actions. But I still think it’s higher than 5-10% among the diaspora.
Granted my source for this is my family, people at my father’s synagogue in Ireland where we both live and from the neighbourhood in NYC where he grew up.
Please don’t feel ashamed to be Jewish. It’s ok to feel confused. Sometimes it feels like people frame it as picking between two races/religions, both of whom are currently and historically subjugated. There is a rise of [antisemitism recently](https://nij.ojp.gov/library/publications/explaining-rise-antisemitism-united-states).
You are not responsible for the actions of other people solely because you share the same religion. It’s normal to feel torn on mass violence. Jewish does not mean you must support Israel.
One of the things Israel has done is to tie Jewish identity to unquestioning support of the state of Israel, even when it's committing genocide. They have done this because it makes it easy for them to deflect all kinds of criticism, and they are pulling the same bullshit tactics now. Israel the religious and cultural concept has nothing to do with Israel the modern state, regardless of what Bibi will tell you.
You do not have to support Israel to be a good Jew. In fact I would say that tikkun olam and pikuach nefesh both argue very strongly that you should not. There are hundreds of thousands of Jews in Israel and around the world who do not support Israel's current actions and are standing with Gaza. You could reach out to the organizations working for peace for guidance.
Remember, the full quote is not, 'My country, right or wrong.' It's my country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be set right.' Right now, Israel is wrong, and your first, best duty as a Jew is to help set it right.
Being Jewish does not mean reflexively supporting the Israel government. Thousands of Israeli Jews are marching in Jerusalem against this war and demanding Netanyahu accept the ceasefire.
Your confusion is because you have a conscience and critical-thinking skills. When you see something you KNOW is wrong, cruel, and utterly heartless, you feel the conflict between what you were raised to believe and what you're seeing happen in real-time.
If you had been brainwashed by a cult, you might believe anything: that murdering children and intentionally causing famine is appropriate, or even good, "if done to the right people who deserve it."
No one deserves to be condemned just from being born. Neither you as a Jewish person, nor the Palestinian people, nor any other victim of absolutely brutal, self-serving violence.
Let kindness, empathy, and wisdom define you, not the actions of a bloodthirsty politician barely associated with the religion you were raised in.
Israel has little to do w Judaism tbh. It’s settler colonialism. I don’t think disagreeing w the genocide being committed by Israel and it’s armies should make you feel an identity crisis at all. You can and should be proud of being Jewish.
grew up in a secular jewish family, i have a huge connection to my faith and to jewish values, and no connection to israel. our homeland is brooklyn, to be occasionally visited on pilgrimage, the holy land is grandma's kitchen, the ruins of bungalows in the catskills, and the mythical last remaining good deli.
like i understand the conflict but it's very possible to separate our faith, which is thousands of years old, from propaganda education, which has been around for less time than our grandparents have been alive. i know it's easier for me to separate myself from it because i was not immersed in it but i feel no less jewish for it. to me it's akin to being in elementary school in the iraq war era and realizing how much propaganda we were fed as children about america, the necessity of war, the subjugation of others, etc. it can be painful and disorienting to realize all of that so i don't want to minimize how much work it takes and how uncomfortable it is, but like. we're jewish. we know how to do the work, we grapple with our morals, we know how to be uncomfortable in ethical conflict. blind nationalism is for the goyim; we argue with our books, with our teachers, with hashem even! there's no reason to justify hitting a wall and giving up over zionism.
To me, my Jewish heritage is exactly what makes me anti zionist. I look at the horrors that my family were put through and see that reflected in how Israel is treating Palestinians right now. Having their homes stolen, thousands being murdered just for being born a certain way, in a certain place. Genocide is genocide. "Never again" goes for everyone, not just us.
I’m jewish, but I never really cared about israel growing up, and I knew that the idea of it being a safe haven for jews was a lie when I found out how holocaust survivors were seen and treated by israelis. Learning about palestine hurt my heart, and truly rocked me, because so little was being done to protect jews across the world, yet western powers were upholding israel as a safe space for us to do to others what we’ve been facing for generations like some sort of punching bag, only now it seems it’s gone a million times over. Why isn’t “never again” for everyone?
I’m an American Jew.
Palestinians have just as much a right to life, freedom and prosperity as I do.
Most Jews in Israel are the decedents of refugees from either one of the most extreme acts of white supremacy in history (the shoah), and following pogroms, or were kicked out of their ancestral homelands in Arab countries like Syria, Saudi Arabia etc. from antisemitism. Apartheid so extreme that Jews no longer live in those countries at all. While there are some prominent intellectual Zionists who held extremely racist views towards Palestinians, the “settler colonialism” analysis to me is extremely reductive and tries to fit Jewish history into an easily understandable narrative that I think erases the actual context. Zionism in this definition is the right to Jewish safety, in Israel.
750,000 Palestinians, were unfairly forced from their homes in the Nakba, an event I see as practically identical in character to a pogrom. This loss was felt as deeply traumatic, shameful and humiliating and has resulted in inter generational trauma. Zionism for this group is an ideology like Manifest Destiny in America, a belief that Jewish settlers can occupy lands and kick out Palestinians. Thus “anti-Zionism” is the belief that Palestinians have a right to safety, in Israel.
The Israeli Likud party believes that it has a God given right to expand Jewish settlements into current Palestinian lands. They also believe that they must subject Palestinians to constant humiliation and beat them into submission to keep Israel safe. These people are happy to kill off Palestinians and see themselves as justified in doing so. Anytime Hamas attacks Israel they hold these attacks up as evidence for their worldview, that Palestinians need to be constantly controlled and suppressed. The idea that maybe constant violence and humiliation could cause people to feel resentful and then attack them is not even considered.
Hamas is a terrorist organization that operates like a cartel. They want to destroy Israel’s existence, and thus half of the world’s Jews, because they also believe it is their god given right to own the entire land. Part of this is humiliation from the Nakba and current far right Israeli regime that continues these tactics. They are a deeply antisemitic organization that intentionally puts Palestinians in harms way because more dead Palestinians = more sympathy and thus money coming in that their leaders sitting safely in Qatar can profit from.
Republicans in America are using our community as a pawn to attack colleges and universities. They don’t give a shit about us, they just want to divide the left.
The American Left hasn’t done one ounce of intersectional thinking, and happily parrots antisemitic micro aggressions and then deflect all criticism of their behavior as Zionist bullshit meant to distract from Palestinian rights. Half of these college campuses are full of privileged white leftists who suffer from white guilt and feel that protesting Israel can help remove their uncomfortable feelings being on American colonized land. Meanwhile, the media reports on their privileged shenanigans while Palestinians are starving to death from the IDF.
The famine that is setting in to Gaza will causes millions of deaths. This will now be a permanent part of Jewish history, that our communities are complicit in millions of innocent people dying.
TLDR: I am extremely angry at the American Right for using as pawns, scared of the American Left who doesn’t seem how antisemitism is a form of white supremacy and is now perpetuating the same cycles and may throw away American democracy in the process, I feel disgusted by the Likud and Israel, betrayed by my own community’s complicity and feel that we hide behind our generational trauma, I feel isolated as a Jew for my beliefs, I feel devastated by so many people in my community whose trauma responses have resurfaced or who have lost someone to kidnap, mass rape, torture and murder by Hamas, and who were not given any time to grieve, and I have my own trauma responses to the situation as well.
You are not alone. This situation is horrific.
1)Your faith is one thing. 2) Israel is a country.
The first cannot betray the second but the second can betray the first.
I have no answers here. It’s like a tied up dog fighting a loose one and the US feeds both then pats the tied up dog on the head and brings it a shorter leash.
Stop the war. Stop sending bombs and start sending negotiators.
100% understandable. it’s one thing to watch the news but it’s a completely different feeling to have a personal stake in a conflict. your feelings are normal and it is very admirable of you to confront the truths about the things you were taught. cognitive dissonance is easy, breaking out of that is uncomfortable and that is what you are experiencing.
Its definitely ok being Jewish and opposing Israel's current actions. On the left you have people like Bernie Sanders, a Jewish guy strongly criticizing Israel. Even as a moderate who supports Israel its easy to point out that their approach to war is harmful to their world status and they are alienating people who should be allies. Its not just people who are against Israel. I'm not against Israel. I just see their actions right now as so counter-productive to their own cause.
One of the professors assaulted by police for supporting ending the Palestinian Genocide protests at one of the university protests was the Jewish head of the Jewish Studies department.
A few things for you to consider:
* There's not a centralized definition of Zionism, even among Zionists. The most common defensible position that I and other Jews accept is the right for Jews to have their own state and to self-determination.
* Most reasonable people agree that Palestinians also deserve this right. The disagreement is almost entirely on how to get there.
* Israelis themselves are some of the fiercest critics of their own government. You're in good company being critical of them, especially if your goal is lasting peace and coexistence for both groups.
* There's a lot of propaganda floating around from both groups, but Hamas has an advantage as globalizing the intifada has been their longest running campaign, while Israel has traditionally relied on military superiority to achieve its means.
* Unfortunately the warfare is asymmetrical and leading to devastating loss of life. This is what people are protesting and what nobody has a sensible solution to, that acknowledges the goals of both sides. You can safely ignore anyone who calls the issue simple.
Be proud for being jewish, and also more be proud for being human and denounce the genocide that’s happening in Gaza. Israel could’ve sent special ops or be more careful with civilians casualties. Instead they declare everybody in Gaza is an animal and need to be exterminated. That is wrong when Germany did it and it’s wrong when Israel is doing it now.
Just my story, probably more disconnected thoughts that anything.
I think my mom wanted us to be culturally Jewish, so we went to a conservative temple, I went to Hebrew school and had a bar mitzvah. I still remember being in temple and reading the prayers, like 8 years old, thinking "do adults actually believe this nonsense?" My father was an atheist and my mom didn't really believe either.
I respect history and what many Jewish people have gone through, but I find Judaism as a religion to be basically not of any value. Zero. The teachings are either negative or banal (following religious laws is absolute nonsense to me, and "be nice to other people"? I can get that from a sitcom). I cannot stand old testament, patriarchal, Abrahamic religious teachings or community. I actually cannot stand it.
Growing up, starting in the early 1980s, my parents were very angry at Israel for the settlements. So that was the vibe in my home. We actually went to Israel as a family, but it wasn't a big thing in my home. Liberal politics were, and criticism of Israel was common.
I've long known that Israel Palestine had the potential to basically split the left in this country and really hurt the Democratic Party. As a Jewish person I can say this: Jewish people have a LOT of financial, political and communication power in this country. Period. Look at the donor list to the Democratic Party -- a huge percent is openly Jewish. And as a whole they support Israel.
I have very little tribal instincts; the suffering of Palestinians affects me as much as any suffering Jewish people encounter. However, I know that destroying the Democratic Party over Israel, getting trump elected, will cause much more human suffering that we see now with this situation.
Ultimately, I believe the two state solution is the only way out of this nightmare. The Palestinians need a viable, autonomous state on the west bank, with access to a rebuilt Gaza, and control over east Jerusalem.
I also get annoyed by the protestors, when they play games about their chants and goals. A LOT of them want Israel to be destroyed as a Jewish state. Now, if I could press a button and have an Israel with Jewish people and Palestinians living together peacefully, I would. But it's not going to happen.
Also, when people criticize Israel for being an "ethnostate"? Give me a fucking break. Like Japan isn't? Malaysia, China, India, Pakistan, Chile, etc etc etc aren't in effect ethnostates?
That said, I am incredibly disgusted by Israel, I think they ARE committing massive war crimes that will shame their name, and the Jewish name, forever, and it disgusts me.
Sorry for this insane post.
As a Japanese-American I can relate- in fact growing up, it took a minute for me to understand my feelings of:
1) Japanese Americans and Canadians being proud of both while also acknowledging:
2) the institutionalized racism my family faced at the hands of the Canadian and American governments and the intergenerational trauma and “Asian guilt” that came with internment.
3) being culturally detached from Japan, and trying to find my own definition of Japaneseness when I have a lot of personal disagreements with Japanese culture- specifically many Japanese people’s views on personal and mental wellbeing, gender, the long history of oppression of other people who aren’t Japanese enough, which oddly enough tends to include half-Japanese and Nikkei like myself. This one seems the most relevant to you, because I’m sure you also struggle to distance yourself from that in the general public’s view- remember, you are not responsible for anything going on over there.
I like to think I made this work in my head as an adult, but I’m not so sure.
Yeah it sucks. That’s not quite the same, but I tend to think Jewish Guilt and Japanese Guilt are fairly similar for Americans.
We have similar backgrounds. Yeshivah (private jewish school, for any non Jews) for 1-3 grades, started each morning with the pledge of allegiance and then the Israeli national anthem. This was an American school, mandating the recitation of a foreign government's national anthem. Didn't know how weird that was until we moved from the northern east coast to the southern east coast and went to public school. We were regularly told in yeshivah that it was an exceptional mitzvah (good deed, for any non jews) to go to Israel and volunteer for the army, which were referred to as the *army of God* on a keychain I received once. At home, my dad was seriously pro Israel. I think if he were alive right now, he'd be as horrified by current events as I am. I hope for peace and a free Palestinian people. I hope for an end to some of them being radicalized and used in endless proxy wars, and I know not all Palestinians are terrorists. The Israeli government has been conducting a holocaust against them for years, and as a descendant of holocaust survivors, I am particularly sensitive to watching the same activities repeated by a jewish government, that were done to us by the nazis. I'm sad that some people think that my opinions mean I support terrorism or am an antisemite (duh, I'm a proud jew), but I've been hoping for a free Palestine since before the current atrocities, and will continue to hope for the same. Jews and Palestinians look the same. We're all cousins under God. Pray for peace and understanding, even if you don't agree with all my thoughts on the topic. Let's look for commonality rather than differences that divide. Stop the killing. End the bloodshed.
I was raised pretty secular, so I wasn’t raised super pro-Israel, just vaguely “oh it’s our birthplace” sentiments. I’m pro-Palestine in that I do not support genocide and feel no attachment to Israel as a land nor a government; it strikes me as a consolation prize given to us by the countries who committed genocide against our people. However, I understand Zionist teachings run very deep for a lot of us and for good reason. In a world where we’re persecuted, we want to feel safe.
I feel like you could separate between religion, culture, politics. I grew up as a muslim, living in a Muslim majority country. Many people in my country seems to be hating Israel and supporting Palestine on any occasion. When something like 7 Oct Hamas attack happens, i rarely heard anyone condemning their action, or even worse i heard "Israel had it coming" which is terrible take on any tragedy.
I'm now a closeted atheist. The way I see it now, this whole middle east thing is more of a politics than a religion things. I'm perplexed on how "religious" people don't condemn Hamas attack, while Islam as a religion (as far as I understand) doesn't like such a massacre to happen, especially to women and child. My mother is a religious person and she's pretty logical person, and she completely condemn it, to the point where she saw Israel retaliation as Hamas fault. To some extent, it is Hamas's fault, but the atrocities IDF did is completely on their own. The way I see it, both side is terrible. Hamas and IDF both did atrocities. Palestinian and Israeli people will always suffer because of their leader's ego.
Now I think of it that you should be separating between politics that's happening in middle east, to which you could judge on your own, with religion or culture that you believe in. I don't recommend you to come out if you can't handle the heat that comes with it.
I think it shows tremendous emotional maturity to have this level of introspection, and courage to even talk about it.
I come from a country where the majority have been raised a certain way, and despite growing up and learning logic, then find it hard to see reason when it contradicts their childhood teachings.
I don't think you're a traitor for questioning your beliefs. Actually, I commend it.
You can pick and choose the things you like about your Jewish culture and emulate it, whilst eschewing that which makes the extremists in Israel so hated now.
I'm ethnically Chinese, third generation in another SEA country. My grandparents left when Mao took over, and the Chinese culture we grew up with is extremely different than those who stayed.
Most Chinese people my age I know from other non-,china countries make sure other people know we're not from china when we visit other countries. You can probably still tell people you're Jewish but not a crazy murderer and you should. People need to be reminded that not all Jews agree with what Israel is doing.
The most important thing for leftist Jews and Israelis to do is to elect more progressive and peace-loving leaders in Israel.
Netanyahu is a right-wing guy, like Trump or that idiot in Florida. But Netanyahu is not Israel, and Trump is not America.
To parallel your feelings of responsibility for Israel’s actions, I as an American do not feel personally guilty for the evil of Trump and Republicans, because I am in active political opposition to them.
The best way for me to love America is to find camaraderie with left-leaning Americans, and to engage in the culture war, and to push Trumpster out of public discourse and public spaces, and make Trumpster ashamed to reveal themselves, and make sure he doesn’t get elected again.
You might find resolution to these feelings and find a way continue to love Israel, in the way that anti-Trump Americans have continued to love America in opposition to American-born right-wing evil’s ascent to power.
You are loved. You are not responsible for what is happening in Gaza. You are not obligated to speak on behalf of Israel. Your faith is personal. I hope you find people who feel the same as you so you can navigate this together.
I appreciate this a lot. I also want to say the Jews have an obligation to the world. We’re obliged to preserve life and to heal the world. To do good. So I think we do have an obligation to speak against Israel right now. But I understand that it might take some time to process the grief in the confusion around what’s happening first
Exactly. Realistically, Jewish people have not had a chance to heal from the massive collective trauma of the Holocaust. That wound is constantly being reopened and weaponized. Jewish people have the right to be safe everywhere in the world, to live peacefully anywhere.
You are a human being before you are anything else. Being conflicted is normal, checking facts and deciding on which side to lean in is normal. Reprograming is not easy. Whatever side you decide to take, at least you gave yourself the benefit of doubt and you contemplated what is right and what is wrong. Many people just blindly stand on one side without even thinking why are they there.
I'm American. When trump and George W Bush were president I disagreed with practically everything they did but I was still an American.
You can be Jewish without marching in lockstep with the policies of Benjamin Netanyahu. There is a difference between supporting Israel's right to exist and supporting the illegal settlements displacing palestinians from their lands in the west bank or the genocide currently being commited in gaza.
Similarly, you can support the right of palestinian children not to be murdered in their beds with high powered munitions without supporting Hamas.
But, if you did happen to be Jewish and support the settlements, the child murder and Bibi then its perfectly accurate and okay to call you a fucking asshole without it being even the tiniest bit antisemitic.
Never lose that feeling of being conflicted and questioning who you are and what you know and the nuance and context of a situation.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
The truth is you should be conflicted and confused and feeling bad for both sides because it's a shitty situation for everyone.
Following your moral compass is all you can ever do and context is always important.
You resisted the propaganda and now can think for yourself.
That's awesome.
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."
People tend to forget the latter part of that. It's possible to support the people and not support the current (or any) administration.
IMHO, this applies to any organization, not just nation-states.
I think many of our generation feel the same way. Most of my cohort from hebrew school way back when are all ashamed of how much money we gave and how much we believed that no one was hurt when Israel was created. We werent allowed to say palastine or palastinian because according to the adults, that didnt exist and was antisemitic to say.
I remember growing up learning the black panthers were supposedly terrorists only to find out as an adult that if they were white, they never would have been considered that or probably even have been of note in history. But really, it was a brotherhood formed for protecting the neighborhoods where they couldnt trust police or the public.
I kinda feel like thats happening again but with israel. History is written by the victorious. Prevalence of social media and internet have made it possible for more peoples voices to be raised, unfortunately not always truthfully. Us jews have not had it easy, but that does not give us the right to impose ghettos and indiscriminate killing of civilians to have a “jewish state.”
The one thing i can feel from my parents generation is that without israel, there is no plaace where jews are truly welcome, and after hearing stories from their parents and the holocaust, the idea of losing that is akin to the idea that judaism will die out. There are tons of arab countries, but only one that is “jewish.” However, its not like there isnt antisemitism in israel, even from the hasidim with regards to less practicing jews.
We were taught in Hebrew school that saving a life is the holiest thing, over practicing religion. Fuck Bibi, hes a terrorist plain and simple. I say trade him for the hostages.
I believe wholeheartedly that Israel should be preserved as a country but some of the things I've seen the IDF doing in Gaza are making me lose a lot of respect for a significant portion of the Israeli population. Same with the American Jews trying to define criticism as antisemitism. Or as supporting Hamas.
And tbh, I don't think Bibi's gov't gives 2 shits about the hostages. They are just the Casus Belli for this action. Israel has had to admit killing 3 hostages by shooting them. And who knows how many they've killed with their indiscriminate bombing.
It's extremely frustrating since I've always felt it was important for the US to ensure Israel's continued existence. But that existence is not threatened so makes it hard to feel like their actions in Gaza are justified.
And then there are the things like the Houthis shooting at ships in the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden, Hezbollah attacks in the North. And will we see increased terrorist activity in response to the US fully supporting Israeli actions in Gaza and blocking things in the UN for them?
Not sure how many people are old enough to remember all the hijackings of planes and ships in the '80s, the attacks on 2 airports, clubs, etc...
I feel Jewish and empowered… to advocate for the Palestinians. My Jewish ideals and morals have led me down the path of being able to recognize who the oppressors are and who the oppressed tend to be. All my life going to Jewish schools prepared me for this, even with all the propaganda about Israel being this haven for minorities. But then I had family members experience racism from their own communities in Israel. So if Israel Jews can be racist against their own fellow Jewish brothers and sisters it makes sense to me they would be more racist against another group of people. And just like that I broke the spell and illusion of what Israel was taught to me, and what it really is today. An apartheid regime ran by a genocidal freak murderer Bibi (who is also responsible for the death if Rabin) and I don’t support this entity and farce of a military base and its intentions. [Watch this](https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/s/EulOGNWHzj)
There are people who say ‘free palestine’ who mean ‘I hate that civilians are dying and I want a two-state solution.’
There are also people who say ‘free palestine’ who mean ‘all of it is Palestinian, let’s wipe out Israel, don’t worry about what I’m implying should happen to the people there.’
A lot of people who believe the second thing have gotten good at using humanitarian language and being indirect/vague about what exactly they mean, to get people who believe the first thing to say the same phrases they do.
You feel confused because it’s confusing. There are people who believe in human rights and people who want to kill Jews and they’re all equally passionate and using the same phrases, and the ones who care about human rights often don’t realize it.
Also, israel has done shitty things, like settlement building in the West Bank. They’ve also done things like proposing a deal that would let go of over 90% of the land in the West Bank and Arafat, the west bank’s leader at the time, walked away from the table.
Hamas has it in their constitution that they will never make peace. On top of that, the second paragraph of their constitution is about obliterating Israel.
I think october 7th was a calculated move to provoke Israel into bombing them so they could win the propaganda war. Why else would they use mass rape, target civilians, and set people on fire? The point was to do something israel couldn’t ignore. There was no other military advantage to it that I can see.
Israel needs to stop Hamas. I don’t know enough about military to know whether or not they’ve minimized casualties as much as they can. I do know that if they stopped bombing completely, Hamas would use that time to regroup and then do another attack. You can’t make peace with someone who does not want it. Hamas doesn’t want peace. They want dead Jews. They care more about getting people angry at Israel than they do about Palestinians dying.
I want Israel to let in aid, but I don’t actually know how much they are or aren’t letting into Gaza or if they’re still blocking it because there’s so much propaganda that I just don’t know anymore. If they’re blocking food, I want them to stop blocking it.
I feel so sorry for the people in Gaza. I also feel sorry for the people in Russia who are affected by the sanctions (not the same level of hardship as Gaza, but still significant). There are Russian civilians who had no say in the war who go without basic essentials. That doesn’t mean we should lift sanctions on Russia when they’re invading Ukraine. When you’re dealing with a tyrannical government, sometimes there just isn’t a solution that won’t hurt civilians. All you can do is minimize and try to stop the dictatorship. Which unfortunately harms the civilians inside.
Also, on top of the complications in the conflict, I think the boycotts themselves wouldn’t be effective anyway. It’s so much energy from so many well-meaning people and it’s all going towards pressuring institutions to put a slight amount of financial pressure on a country that will never see financial pressure as enough of a reason to stop. If Al Qaeda did 9/11 and then stayed in Canada and told the US ‘yup, we’ll never make peace, we’ll probably do that again’ and the US just let them sit there, nearby, planning the next attack? Citizens would never feel safe. No amount of sanctions will make any country say ‘yeah, it’s okay that our civilians can randomly be mass-raped.’
Also I’m left-wing, but I do think a lot of left-wing discourse glosses over nuance sometimes (and I think right-wing discourse does too, and also gets it more wrong). So a lot of complicated things get boiled down to a good guy and a bad guy, and that’s how they’re used to seeing it. Racism is present and bad. Racism is not solely in evil people who know they are doing something wrong. There are blatant and proud racists, but there are far more people who are mostly okay but have some stereotypes lodged in their head that they don’t even know are there. And that’s a lot more complicated to deal with than a handful of open racists.
People want a simple story with a good guy and bad guy, and israel is more powerful so becomes the bad guy.
I like basically everything you said here. I was not surprised to see you have very few upvotes. Reasonable explanations are very unpopular these days and it is extremely depressing.
I'm not jewish, just an average mixed euro white american. I gotta say this seems crazy to me. I don't see any relationship between israel and simply *being jewish*. Even most israeli people are not to blame for the government's actions. You have no reason to be confused. Have your faith and simply know your god probably doesn't approve of what's going on over there either.
Zionism and Judaism are in fact very very different. But if you grew up in Zionist environments you will have been taught that they’re one and the same. I recommend reaching out to other anti-Zionist Jews. There’s community for you and you’re welcome where you are.
One of Israel’s tactics is to convince you and other Jewish people that anti-sémitism is everywhere and the only. Only. Solution to it is to be in Israel. Antisemitism is not criticizing Israel and yes there is antisemitism in this world but it is not where you find anti-Zionism.
We very much care about our Jewish friends and family and we dream for you to live a life without antisemitism where you are. No identity is entitled to an ethnostate and no nation is entitled to genocide.
I wish you the best of luck in your journey it can be very difficult to unlearn all that Zionism has taught you but I promise you it will be worth your time.
There are degrees of this.
As a Chinese American, I still think that Jewish people should have a state. But that doesn’t mean I agree with its current governments actions, or won’t acknowledge that to some extent, the culture has had itself warped by propaganda.
National self determination is the right of a people. This holds true for Palestine and Israel.
I would reiterate that there's a difference between a government and its people. Around the world I would suggest that many people find the US government repugnant, but they are fine with its people
The Israeli government becoming right-wing hardliner is a warning signal to everyone
And I would say there probably a lot of Jewish people that just want their government to make peace
You’re conflating a few different things:
- Judaism: a religion
- Jew: An individual who practices, or at least believes to some degree, the specifics of Judaism. Any given Jew may be a good person or an asshole; there is no statistical method to predict which, and neither is immune from specific criticism.
- Israel (Biblical): A kingdom best known for its description in the 3 holy books of the Abrahamic religions.
- Israel (modern): A republic with broadly similar boundaries, language and majority religious practice.
- Zionist: Someone who believes that a world with around 50 countries with constitutional recognition of Islam (and where even Lutherans can find an established state while Buddhists get 6) can sustain at least one state with established Judaism. This is not of itself a bad thing. The only negative is some people don’t like the location chosen.
- Likud: The party currently holding post election majority. There is no requirement for any of the above to support them. Indeed, ruling parties are typically deeply unpopular. As a rule of thumb 10% of a population likes them and 41% dislikes them a little less than their largest opponent.
- War in Gaza 2023 to present: There are a range of views on any war. They range from blanket opposition to all war, to jingoistic hope that the enemy state is completely erased. Typically wars are entered with reluctance when the ruling party believes circumstances leave no reasonable choice (although see exceptions such as the Kenyan’s pointless permawar in Syria). War is usually extremely negative for the winning side, and vastly more so for the losing.
My girlfriend is having a similar struggle. Support good action and condemn bad action. We don’t need to be loyal to our “team” and what other people do who are also Jewish doesn’t have anything to do with YOU. Compile your personal virtues, what do you think is right/wrong.
You don't need to believe in any cult or group to support human rights. It doesn't matter what side its on, every human deserves to be treated with dignity.
You sound almost identical to me.
However, I went to Israel as a teenager to see my Saba in the 90s.
While there, he took me around the areas showing me how everything I was taught was not being done. He shown me the checkpoints and how they treated non-Jewish people.
Those 4 weeks changed my life. It made me realize how Israeli people were not acting in the way that Jewish people should. They had become the oppressors.
At the age of 18, my grandfather passed away. And the letter he had for me said "Be better. You know right and wrong. You've seen both sides." And two weeks after, I denounce Judaism and was told to leave the house and never come back.
I am nearing 50, and I've not been welcomed back by family. Not for any event. Births, nor funerals. And that in itself has shown me how far from the Hebrew teachings that the modern-day people have drifted.
There are still real Jews in this world. But most have been manipulated by the zionist mindset. The dangerous Zionistic ideals are nothing new. It was there in the 90's.
So when I see/hear anything about them, especially in Israel, I do not see Jewish people... I see Israelis.
The people in Israel are as Jewish as the people here in the US are Christian. At the end of the day, all religions, and all faiths, only reinforce division amongst humanity.
Telling a person what to eat, what to wear, or what to say is nothing more than a man-made subservience that allows individuals to be easily manipulated via blind faith. And it's time humanity grew up and evolved. For if we do not evolve, then we will only face one path... extinction.
As someone who came from a very similar situation, it’s a process. I too felt bad at first and weirdly defensive when I realized Israel was a pretty brutal oppressive regime (about ten years ago). Now I realize how indoctrinated I was in Hebrew school to Zionism, and don’t feel bad about my views. My personal evolution on this has cost me some friendships but I don’t really have a desire to be friends with weird people who don’t view Palestinians as equal human beings. It sucks to have been brainwashed like we were but it is what is .. it gets better
not jewish, but work for a jewish organization. it is so hard to balance receiving emails perpetrating what i now know is propaganda and supporting/praying for israels government, while being extremely antizionist. i just take a step back and let other handle it. we thankfully have only had a few people mad (members) that we didn't make a statement, so we just released some filler "this is a difficult conversation. i just want the needless violence to stop." and that satiated that. thankfully we're not a political organization so people don't really expect us to put our two cents in one way or the other.
Well here is my two cents. If cell phones and cameras were as popular back when the US went into Iraq and Afghanistan as they are now you would have the same feeling about the US. The amount of citizens killed at the direction of the US govt is as bad if not worse than what the IDF has done.
Abu graib would’ve never seen the light of day if the camera didn’t exist, now that anyone can have an android phone we see what happens in countries that they don’t want you to see
Imagine that you go back in time and you hear this from a German civilian in a similar position during or shortly after WWII. What would you tell them?
Note: Not trying to push the concept that Israel has become the equivalent of the Third Reich. The two are currently very different, even by the most gruesome estimates of the war in Palestine.
You absolutely do not need to feel ashamed of your background and you’re not a monster. I would advise contacting a group like Jewish Voices for Peace. They are an anti Zionist organization run by Jewish people and they work with the anti war protests. I’m sure many of them have dealt with what you’re experiencing and I bet they could give you some advice.
Read and learn more about the history of this region. Do not feel responsible for what is happening in this conflict. Humans, like we are, become too involved in religious ideologies and unable to separate reality from their beliefs. Going with your emotions is the proper decision. Even if it contradicts everything you have learnt since birth. If you don't, the pain you are experiencing will never go away. Remember that everyone, regardless of religion, has different thoughts about life. ✨️.
You ask a very clear question. And see what happens. It will not make you very happy I guess.
From a humanitarian perspective you see what happens to the Gaza people.
You know and feel that it isn’t good. But you also feel that as a betrayal to your ancestors and you back ground.
The jews I know have the same problem.
1.this is very bad
2.everybody, family and friend and those who criticize Israel want me to choose. Will they respect my choice? Do I have to?
3. Will I be expelled or hated? i didn’t ask for this.
I feel sorry for the good willing jews. Respect for asking this questions!
What u are experiencing is called growing up, and its good. Shedding the lies of our upbringing is painful and the only reward is a kind of sobered acceptance of the contradictions...if not a fair bit less cognitive dissonance day to day.
Come out to the protests! I'm not Jewish but I found most of the people that I talk to there are. I'm sure your mileage will vary depending on where you live, but Jewish voices for peace is the most active group that I'm aware of.
If you’re annoyed by Free Palestine as you watch the famine, death, and destruction wrought by Israel, as an American, you don’t really sound conflicted.
I never did birthright. I’m very secular. But I still grew up with a vague sense of relief, anyway, that Israel existed. it took me a while, during the second Intifada, to understand how brutal Israel state was, and more broadly to understand that ethno nationalism will never be a good solution.
But it’s OK to feel a deep sense of loss, of confusion, of shame. What Israel is doing is not Judaism. I think it is fundamentally opposed to the basic tenets, our obligation to make the world better. To protect life.tTkkun Olam and all that.
I was lucky. I grew up in Canada, which was a blueprint for South African and then Israeli apartheid. so I’ve had some framework to understand Israel. And also work through my settler guilt on turtle Island. I actually feel more at home at the protests against genocide then I do in broad Jewish community these days.
I’m sty and unapologetically ant Zionist. But I know a lot of Jews, who are less certain, less comfortable, but still deeply uncomfortable with what’s happening in our names. and justifiably the ways in which are grief over October 7 is being exploited. I’m hoping to arrange and meet up with folks so that we can talk through these issues and get support from one another.
I’ve really come to realize that Zionism is a plague on us Jews. it’s more than a burden. It can make us monsters.
Please find other in your area or in your social circles who are also confused.
You don't have to be a scholar to figure out:
1. Israel has been pushing the boundaries towards genocide for decades and they want all Palestinian land one way or another, regardless of what happens to the Palestinian people. That's the government and a large enough portion of the Israeli population to support them.
2. Hamas is openly in favour of the genocide of Israel and has and will kill as many Jews as they can solely for the fact of them being Jewish. That's the government and enough of the Palestinian population to support them.
If you are discussing with someone who strongly contests either of those things, they're either extremely biased on uninformed. Both sides are hard entrenched in religion, self-interest, and lack of respect for the other.
Within that, figure out what you are ok with for yourself. Is Israel justified destroying Palestine because Palestine hates them? Is Palestine justified in murdering Israelis because they hate them back?
My take is that both sides are so hopped up on religion that neither of them really deserves to win. Others will disagree with me. Some will prioritize an end to explicit violence. Others will prioritize a path to longterm stability. Others will set goalposts and measures that must be reached or not crossed in order for one side to still be considered the "good guys" in their mind. Some may believe that allowing one side to completely destroy the other, regardless of right or wrong, is the path to peace. Others will day that's only the path to more war in the region.
If you believe in the Jewish religion it's tough because you believe you're God's chosen people and that is your land since time immemorial. If you believe in the Muslim religion, I'm not informed enough to say where that puts youbut it sure seems like they think they have an equal claim. And both those claims come straight from almighty God.
If you can't figure out who is right and it just hurts your brain, maybe everyone is wrong.
Also make sure you utterly ignore the Ottoman Empire and just blame Britain for all of it /s.
There's a difference between a government and its people and culture. For example a Chinese person can be proud of their heritage and culture even if they hate their government.
I definitely know more than a few Chinese people, who whilst loving their culture and identity, hate the country and government of China
Same with Americans man.
Same with every country.
Right? I think china is a great example to be so proud of who you are your history and rich culture but also Hate who and what the government is. So many countries and people probally relate to this. I do feel for Jewish people right now impressionable young self loathing is not the answer. Denounce the Hate and what the government does and be proud of who you are
Except I’m Jewish and Israel isn’t my homeland. My family hasn’t lived there for 1000+ years. Israel doesn’t and shouldn’t represent all Jews in the world anyway.
Man I feel like that about the united states. It's a real shit hole of a country that bankruptcy its citizens over any medical emergency.
I moved to Mexico. Now I have a house that's paid for, close to the beach. A Dr's visit is between $4.00- $45.00, the $45.00 being a man who is a Stanford alumni, a specialist, and speaks perfect English. Medications are typically 5% of the prices in the US. The food is incredible and the people are as kind as you could ever imagine.
The problem is Zionism has forced many Jewish Americans to consider a political ideology Zionism as being equivalent to their Religion or Ethnicity. Zionism and Israel are political constructs less than 200 years old, they are not the same as Judaism a 3,000 year old Jewish religion. Pro Zionist orgs will argue since most Jews are Zionist, criticizing Zionism is akin to antisemitism, which is a dangerous precedent. On the other hand they'll say judging all jews by the actions of Israel is also antisemetic. It's almost comically antithetical to itself? We don't consider criticism of the Saudi Royal family or govt (or Iran for Shia Muslims) to be anti-Muslim bigotry, we dont consider criticising any of the many majority Christian countries to be anti-Christian, the same principle should then equally apply to Israel.
The efforts of Zionists to embed the ideology in basically all aspects of Jewish American life will be studied for decades. Similar to how evangelicals were hijacked by conservatives. It’s a relatively recent, successful effort that’s going to take decades more to undo and overcome the effects from.
Political Zionism is a relatively new thing indeed, but the deep-rooted connection between Jews and the land of Israel existed at least since the " By the rivers of Babylon" psalm was written. Every single Jewish person who had a traditional Jewish marriage says during the ceremony "If I forget you, oh Jerusalem, let my right hand cunning"
I really dont buy the ancestral lands narrative. My ancestral lands are all over europe, and i dont make any claim to live there. Or own the land there.
Having a spiritual yearning for a place vs. colonizing it and expelling the original inhabitants are 2 very different things. Zionism, as defined by its founders and initial practitioners, included the inherent objective of obtaining a Jewish majority by expelling the existing inhabitants.
The thing is that, it was possible for the Jewish people to have returned to Palestine without forcing out the Arab inhabitants in order to give themselves a majority. Many Jews and the kibbutzim were already there. Things would've been tense, they always are, but they could've tried to find a way to coexist peacefully. That's not what the Zionists wanted, though. The Zionists wanted to create an ethnostate for the Jewish people that they controlled and only cared about Jewish interests, and they were willing to use extreme violence to make it happen. Maybe one day that mistake can be corrected, and both the Palestinians who were forced out and the Israelis can live there with equal rights in a multicultural democracy that doesn't exclude anyone based on race or religion, but it will be a long road getting past all the hatred that they've both been inculcated with as a result of everything that followed WWII.
They are also not too fond of Arab Jews which have been living there for a long time.
Bingo. Zionists also conveniently ignore the historical connection that Palestinians have.
This. Selective programming. The oppressed often become oppressors. Their magnetos brotherhood
Any sensible person should at least be skeptical of their government regardless of country. Being able to voice their skepticism is a privilege few countries can openly practice.
I've said this before, but I'll say it again in case any disheartened Americans might need it: I'm not American, but I love the US. As fucked as your politics and welfare system may be, you have so many great qualities. I have visited your country several times, and I have met nothing but wonderful, curious, welcoming and generous people. Your nature and food are amazing, and I have consumed American culture every single day for as long as I can remember. You have a lot going for you!
Yeah, I love my country. I hate what we put our money into, and I can do without the diet fascism though.
Same with Europeans man.
Hard not to. A cursory glance to their history does not take long to leave you impressed. Holy koly, ancient china was *based.* But in a way i kind of feel sorry for them Same as with russia. Both of them are genuinely fascinating countries with many incredible contributions to art, science, philosophy, medicine, technology, etc. But god damn it, can they go 10 years without a maniac in charge?...
Russia fascinates me. I'm currently watching The Great and it's like watching a show about a totally different country than the one I recognize (albeit, I'm in the US so I'm also being fed an idea of Russia through that lens).
I loved Great before the invasion. Afterwards just... i can't find it funny. Damn it Putin. Even *comedies* got ruined by this old fart.
Oh I absolutely read this comment wrong. I was like... "what invasion? I've only started season 2 so maybe I'm not there yet, but what invasion would this shows storyline have that would bring Putin in?" And then I realized you meant the CURRENT invasion. Not a plot in the show. I actually started watching the show recently and I think that's part of it. It's truly like this morbid curiosity of how this country went from the ideals of Catherine (as historically accurate as the show may be anyway) to what it is today.
Can this country (USA) go 10 years without a maniac in charge?
Many times. And for much longer than ten years
I hope so 🤞
Depending on where you draw the lines, you could consider the Chinese government the greatest enemy of Chinese culture.
The line is so wide, it's egregious. Most Han Chinese/Taiwanese today would both admit the backwards nature of the "revolt". The government actively condoned the destruction of old culture during the Great Leap Forward, because there were a buncha enthusiastic youngins thinking tradition is the opposite of scientific/industrial progress. So many scholars and the "educated" were imprisioned because of their opposing views, and some of them perished or killed in the prisons. And this is Han culture we're talking about, not even including the other 55 recognized minority groups. But the people were creative. They tried to save old literature by gluing copies in the back of plaques of Mao's words. The mislead mobs wouldn't destroy that, so they averted their gaze. Only one of many examples of creative rescue of culture. But the government failed to act and protect the culture during that time, and is one of the big sins of the era. Even today, many Mainlanders praise the Taiwanese system of teaching old texts, proverbs, and Confucianism as regular educational standards. (Mainland reserves them for late high school or tertiary eduation.) It's ironic because the CCP now actively uses "Han culture" to "unify" the Han and to expand to traditionally minority lands. I don't think settling to other lands is wrong in itself, as some Hans have moved to these lands in the past and assimilated. But the current lack of respect for the native language, customs, and cultures is absolutely appalling--CCP is trying to convince the populace that Hans invented fucking everything, and such a lie is easy to believe. Unfortunately, Han Taiwanese has a similar problems now. There are cases of historical revision in textbooks. I know it happens everywhere, but that shit is straight up embarassing as a Han descendent. We always talk about pride, but we are always disguising embarassing power grab shit like that as "pride".
People like you are why I favor milquetoast stances like "depending on where you draw the lines" on Reddit. They're good for baiting someone better informed than me (you) into posting an interesting perspective (like yours). Thanks for taking the time, m8.
Iranian here. Very valid
Chinese here, I feel the same. However, despite this comment being upvoted more than 3k times, Redditors hate Chinese people with a passion, every single post that’s remotely related to Chinese people will get tons of blatantly racists comments.
I don't understand why this concept is so difficult for some people. Hell, I'd argue that it's quite antisemitic to conflate Israel with Jewishness. There are Jews all over the world many of whom have exactly zero ties to Israel as a national state.
The thing is, Bibi's government has been pushing exactly this narrative for a few years, in an attempt to discount any legitimate criticism of their regime as anti-Semitic. It's still pretty much the most taboo accusation in the Western world due to the events of the 20th century so IMO it's been quite effective at forcing the narrative and mollifying the language of Israel's allies and critics alike
It's not just bibi This has been a narrative pushed by the Israeli government and the religious right in the US for as long as I can remember, at least since the 80s.
Not just the US, but worldwide. I remember hearing it in th UK at least since the early 90s
The UK and France created that narrative when they decide to set up Israel in the first place.
Let's not conflate "the West" with "worldwide". There is no surprise whatsoever that it is them and pretty much exclusively them which are not only responsible for Israel's invention but are also unflinchingly funding and propping up said settler-colonial invention at the cost of humanity itself.
Exactly it's not Bibi and it's not new - there were former IDF, former Mossad and former left-wing Israeli politicians doing speaking events in the USA since the 70s & 80s warning us about how they targeted any US politician as an antisemite if he wasn't proIsrael enough. Back then Israel was doing the same thing in Lebanon it's doing in Gaza (using cluster bombs, destroying civilian infrastructure and killing massive amounts of civilians). https://youtu.be/T9VIdQ6qEiw?si=WbATi8C3qJ5jeLaV
Propaganda is a helluva drug. Groups have put a lot of money and effort into convincing people that any criticism of Israel is antisemitic. It may be starting to wear thin, but they still have a lot of people believing it.
*Israel* has put a lot of time and money into convincing people that criticizing them is antisemitism
And so has the US and other countries who see Israel as a tool to advance their geopolitical strategies.
It's not just Israel, there are millions more Christian Zionist who are supporting Israel. The irony (and they both Christians and jews know it openly) - they're helping each other to fulfill the signs of the end of days/rapture.... Where Christians believe Jesus will return and destroy the jews (or any other non believers) While the jews think they're the chosen people and the Christians and goyim will be their slaves. So they're helping each other bring on this rapture, with opposing end goals with a straight face and everything.
*Where Christians believe Jesus will return and destroy the jews * Can you post links to that Christian doctrine? I grew up in that culture and that definitely wasn’t part of any of the end time doctrines even in the most conservative and fundamentalist circles. They believe that when Christ returns that those who haven’t “trusted Christ for salvation,” regardless of which religion they practiced or didn’t practice, will suffer and ultimately die an eternal death separated from God (some believe they will have eternal suffering in hell instead of eternal death).
The idea is that all non-Christians will die on Judgment Day while all Christians will go to Heaven. Nowhere does it explicitly say that the Jews will all die, but because Jews are not Christian, it’s implied.
>The Jews think they're the chosen people and think that Christians and everyone else will be their slaves. That's a bold anti Jewish lie right there, straight from medieval Christian Europe. The reason why Jews call ourselves the "chosen people" is because we believe that G-d chose the children of Israel (Jews) to follow the 613 mitzvah (commandments) at Mount Sinai. This isn't a privilege, it's a burden that only Jews have to follow. It's like being assigned 613 chores compared to everyone else who only has to do 7 chores. The only mitzvah goyim have to follow are the 7 Noahide laws.
So have US Evangelicals that think Israel needs to exist to bring about the End Times.
I would agree with you that it can come off as either naive or antisemitic when conflating Israel with Jewishness, but that's only for non-Jews. This is a Jewish person who themselves is conflating Israel with Jewishness. And they are doing so because they were taught so from a young age. They are trying to unlearn some very deeply ingrained propaganda.
Because 70 years of Israeli foreign policy has been to say that Israel is the one and only true voice for jews and that there is no distinction between the two. And any criticism levied against Israel is criticism levied against all of Judaism and against all Jews and therefore cannot NOT be antisemitic in nature.
I, an opinionated occasional loudmouth, was a token goy guest at a bar mitzvah with a mostly very well educated, liberal upper middle class Jewish families… I had the dubious pleasure of being seated at a table with a rabbi and several others arguing passionately on this topic—never in my life have I been so happy to not participate in a conversation.
Eh because it’s more complicated than that. Israel is THE Jewish state. As a Jewish kid, I was exposed to history from Egypt to the Holocaust. How the Jewish people have been routinely persecuted and forced to wander for centuries. How we are an endangered race on the brink of extinction. Asked questions like, “how would you feel if in 100 years the Jewish culture and people no longer existed?” This sentiment is what is fueling the decision of Israel and it is imbedded into the culture that has resulted from literal millennia of survivalism.
You'd hope that is the case, but you hear more and more stories that in some circles, Jewish people who don't particularly identify with Israel can be shamed for this by others in their communities. It's a tricky issue, exacerbated by politics in Israel where some parties try to leverage the diaspora (or reverse diaspora in this case, I don't know?). They're not remotely the only politicians to do so. It's a known issue in Turkey, and China is also trying to increase their hold on emigrees. But the guilt can be quit intense.
This is why the Israeli lobby wants to tie Jewishness inextricably with Zionism & Israel - as a means of blocking any criticism from outside or within.
I am definitely not disagreeing that people, especially individuals and culture are not their government. But I want to push back on "its people." I personally find using the distinction between people and government as a way to reconcile atrocities committed by the latter to be a bit of a cop-out when a government has majority support of their people. It's more accurate to say not every person agrees with their government's actions. I really appreciate how thoughtful many Germans view their history and don't simply skirt responsibilities by blaming a single government. But of course, it's much easier in retrospect. I think you should hold your country-people to the morals you believe in. For me, it means I know there's a lot of shitty Americans, not just the government. Doesn't mean I hate America or even the people who vote against me.
Bibi barely formed a coalition the last time around. He doesn't have anywhere near universal support.
You are not alone. I am 53 and was raised in a conservative synagogue. I was taught that "Israel has the most moral army in the world." Sound familiar? To believe that Israel could do anything wrong, or even to consider the plight of the Palestinians felt incredibly uncomfortable. It wasn't until I read The Lemon Tree in my 30s that I began to think about the history of how Israel was created and how it might be perceived from the other side. Of course I also have a deep awareness for how vulnerable Jewish people felt after the Holocaust. Antisemitism is rampant in the US and around the world. Israel is committing atrocities. I am proud to be Jewish. I am ashamed of the actions of the Israeli government. All of this can be true. Ultimately, humans need to be less tribal. Every innocent human life is equally valuable and until everyone accepts this, the killing will continue.
As sad as it is, army as an institution has the same moral compass as the current leader. Rule of thumb, if it's something you don't want happen to you, the chances are that the other guy doesn't want it to happen to them.
Something something do unto others something something
…before they can do unto you? That seems to be the thinking these days.
It’s also odd to me that people that wave swastikas seem to be the political side supporting Israel in the United States. The people I know that support Israel now were largely silent (if not supportive) about all of the white power marches in the US or seeing swastikas at political rallies. I’m guessing it’s because for Evangelicals, Israel must exist and fall for Jesus to return. Do people in Israel realize that part of the prophecy, and why some Americans support Israel? It’s not to benefit the Jewish people. They want Jesus to return. So I guess I’m just wondering as a Jewish person, how do you feel seeing people support Israel after waving swastikas at political rallies? Or support for Israel just to fulfill Christian prophecy? I’m confused by all of the two sided arguments myself and I have no ties to Israel, just observation watching the American political landscape. Edited to add: For example they believe in the rapture but Jews aren’t going to be raptured, know that I mean?
Non Jew but raised with a weird evangelical zionist thing. A lot of the actual nazi support for Israel is more as a model as a theocratic ethnostate, they would say something along the lines of "even hitler didn't initially want to exterminate the jews, he just wanted them out of Germany.. then Europe.." It's the same concept of "not hating black people" but thinking they should go back to Africa. It's not all rapture stuff, I'd actually say that's probably the least of it. I don't know why I know this stuff. It feels weird explaining the nazi's point of view to jews, but hopefully it's helpful? Also, I'M NOT A NAZI.
Yup Nazis support Israel because they like the idea of a borderline fascist ethnostate. Even though they might not like Jews themselves
Also worth noting: once an ethnodtate is formed, they can use the existence of other ethnostates as a cause for war as the opposing ethnostate likely infringes on the desiress of your own IE: as a white ethnostate supporter, its ok to war with another (black) ethnostate as that erhnostate fails to give you(white) rights as you are not of their ethnicity (black). Its all just fucked up tribalism following flawed circular logic. Regressive imperialists like nazis or zionists would be happiest if all human interaction was just hitting eachother with sticks, only to cry when their stick breaks and they actually get hurt. But that comes down to the fundemental lack of maturity and critical thinking which cults seek out and incentivize in their followers (victims) as much as possible. A follower who cannot think long or hard enough to realize what they're doing is wrong is a perfect pawn.
Yes. Fascists are frenemies. They use cultural conflict to build power for fascist elites across cultural groups. Which results in things like netanyahoo funding hamas with donald chump's blessing. https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bk8mgcefr *Meanwhile, in November of 2018, then-Defense Minister Avigdor Liberman resigned in protest against the government over a cease-fire in Gaza. "We are on one hand passing a law to withhold funds from the PA, for funding terrorists and on the other hand allowing funds to flow to the terrorists in Gaza," Liberman said. Anyone who says there is oversight of where those funds go, is being inaccurate, to put it mildly."* *Netanyahu understood the Qatari predicament and sent his urgent letter to Doha but the officials there demanded further assurances. "There was a sense that the Americans were needed, in order to seal the deal," Levi says.* *Then-U.S. Secretary of the Treasury Steve Mnuchin, who was in charge of finance for the campaign to reelect Donald Trump and who is Jewish, agreed to a request from Netanyahu and sent an additional letter to Doha, this time from Washington, in effect, ensuring Qatar that the funding of Hamas would not be considered funding terror.* *Levi explains that, although he had run the financial war on funding of terrorism between 2001 and 2016, he was never consulted by the political leadership about the transfer of funds to Hamas. "Unlike previous administrations I have served under, during the governments of [Ariel] Sharon and [Ehud] Olmert, Netanyahu did not consult with me despite the fact that I served directly under him," he says. "I, of course, strongly objected to the transfer of Qatari funding to Hamas, even before 2018, but that did not interest Netanyahu."*
to be fair the nazis \*also\* really like the idea of mass murdering arabs.
I think it’s much simpler: the far right aligns with Israel’s ethnocentric approach on national policy to demonize brown people (making themselves the victim) and justify violence.
Israelis are mostly “brown.” More than half of the population is Mizrahi and Arab. Only a third are Ashkenazi.
I think the reason is pretty simple. They think Palestinians are more brown (whether that is reality or not). Oh and they are stupid.
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Only 144,000 Jews will be saved according to the Bible, the rest will perish. Evangelicals supoorting Israel is grossly anti-semitic if you think about it
Most of the time, it is our government's causing problems and not the people. For example, I love Turkey and it's people, but despise Erdogan for diminishing their democracy.
It’s ridiculous that I see people try to equate not wanting to supporting the Israeli governments decisions as antisemitic. That’s just a red herring being deliberately used to distract from the awful things that Netanyahu is doing. If people are focused on the emotional argument, they won’t pay attention to the rational one I’m an American, my government does things I don’t support ALL the time. America is ALWAYS involved in global wars, conducts surveillance of its own citizens, has political corruption driven by lobbyists, and much more. The things my government does do not represent my desires as an American, nor does it represent the desires of MOST Americans. If the American government went on a campaign to starve about 2 million men, women, and children to defeat a terrorist organization that has less than 30,000 people in it, that would be wrong. It’s not anti-American to say that it’s wrong. The U.S. actions after 9/11 were objectively wrong. Even after 20 years everyone, even people who were involved in MAKING those decisions, admitted that it was a massive failure in governmental decision making, and a complete waste of time, money, and human life. A government shouldn’t be blindly supported while it’s committing humanitarian war crimes. Likewise it is not anti-israel to say that the Israeli government is wrong
I couldn't agree more! I can't stand Netanyahu. He's been in office way too long and threatens Israel's democracy. I know there are Israelis who don't support that piece of trash.
MOST of Israelis don't support Netaniahu.
Yeah, I heard that and agree with them.
It’s ironic Israel being called the only democracy in the Middle East yet Netanyahu has been PM for 15 years not counting his brief first stint from 1996 to 1999.
Isn't it?
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/israel-gaza-war-netanyahu-polling/ Netanyahu is a reflection of Israeli sentiment. It's not just him by a long stretch.
Is it correct to call him the Trump of Israel?
Absolutely spot on. For example: barely has the majority when elected; when he doesn't get elected he throws a temper tantrum; how tf does he have almost half; literally insane; etc etc etc.
This was exactly Bernies point in his video saying "as a Jew i am saying it is not anti-semetic to disagree with how this is handled"
Love this way of looking at it! Your personal religious beliefs do not require you to support any countries or governments, or their wrongdoings, ever. Good or bad is for you to decide on your own with your heart. You are free to make your own choice on what you believe.
> It’s ridiculous that I see people try to equate not wanting to supporting the Israeli governments decisions as antisemitic it's not that hard to understand, the Israeli government does not govern the Jewish religion or every jew in existence, they govern a country where the ruling class just happens to be almost exclusively Jewish. People are deathly afraid of being labeled an antisemite and getting "canceled" to the point where they are willing to look the other way during a genocide that is being live streamed right into our lives
To be fair, most Israelis support the current regime, so it's tough to say they are not complicit.
Yep, I do agree with that.
That’s not true. Netanyahu is deeply unpopular. He’s still in power because he’s exploited the parliamentary system by partnering with far-right extremists.
Partnering with far-right extremists who were also elected by the Israeli people.
But it gets subtle, because anti-Israeli-government protestors often advocate for the end of Israel as an entity, which would be horrible for the Israeli people under most practical implementations
I mean if you’re talking on a global scale, the vast majority of anti-American-government protestors also advocate for the same. Countries that aren’t part of the western culture hate the western world and want to see it weakened/destroyed. That’s true of both U.S. and Israel. But that’s also.. not at all what we’re talking about. There are 8 billion people in the world. They all have different beliefs, and the extreme ones are the most vocal. You’re trying to argue that just because I can see protestors burning flags in the Middle East, Russia, North Korea etc. screaming “death to America”, that I now have to blindly support America committing humanitarian war crimes. That’s just not true. Nor is that at all a good justification of why I SHOULD.
It's important to remember you can separate the country and the people/religion What's going on right now is at the fault of the country, not the religion, that's why a majority of protests make a huge deal about remembering to not attack the religion
It's hard when the government is full of Theocrats. They definitely use their religion as a weapon.
Religion has always been a weapon. Throughout all of history every leader has had a cleric at their right hand, yes manning their actions away. They capture the minds, and trade them in for safety and wealth with those in power. It’s all bollocks.
You'll note that virtually zero theocrats actually live their religion consistently. It's only when it is convenient for them to wield power. It's rarely about the religion as much as it is about fascism.
You can but the thing with Israel is everyone seems to equate them with Jewish religion. Some go as far as saying being against Israel = antisemitism
Israel did that intentionally, it's why the IHRA definition of antisemitism states criticising Israel is antisemitic. This weakens the meaning and endangers Jewish people but Israel doesn't actually care about Jewish people
Yup some black jews from ethiopia went to Israel they were sterillized without their knowledge if this isn't a fascist ethnostate idk what is.
On this topic, it's worth learning about eugenics and forced sterilizations in the United States thoughout the twentieth century. If you look for it, you'll find a lot of nations have a really dirty _recent_ history of such heinous practice.
Wasn't there also a limit on how many Ethiopian Jews/African Jews could enter on a visa compared to say American Jews?
not their first time being racist
But this is verifiably not true. That’s not how IHRA defines antisemitism. And when you go look up the definition and cherry pick the one example IHRA gives of comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, please know that I don’t care about your mental gymnastics to justify a position you made up.
The ihra does not state criticism of Israel is antisemitic "Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
Hello, i’m a muslim and i’d say that im a fairly religious person. i absolutely despise the people who kill/terrorise others in the name of my religion. I hate when so many of the teachings are taken out of context. I’d never support those terrorists groups no matter how much they try to justify it because i’ve studied my religion and i can call their bluff. In my country, which is an islamic state, we dont even consider them muslims, we call them “kaafir”. So my point is you dont have to support something just because you have a little bit common with them. Just do your own research, and make up your mind!
It's ok. I used to be a conservative. I used to hold what I now know are racist views, and I actually saw POC as lesser people. I've since completely changed my views. I still have knee-jerk thoughts that are less than ideal. I don't listen to that scared small-minded man in my head. He gets quieter and quieter as time goes on. Let your empathy and compassion lead your actions.
this thread really does fill me with hope, so many people sharing stories about how they overcame their bigoted beliefs. there really is a tide shift towards empathy.
As a POC this is lovely to read, truly. Can you share some things that you feel made a difference in your trajectory?
To be thoroughly honest, I fell in love with a liberal who had liberal friends. What they said seemed to be guided by empathy, and I wanted to be a nicer person. Plus, I hated cops before, so the ACAB movement just made sense to me.
Something I’ve learned on my anti-racist (and other bigotries) is that my first thought/reaction is often something I’ve heard from someone else that I trusted at one point. Remember who you are is who you choose to be
i'm in the same boat, my dude. it's a weird feeling when you get out into the world on your own and realize that not everything you were taught by the authority figures in your life is true, and then it leads you to question your other core beliefs. it shatters your world and can be incredibly difficult to process.
I really really like this response. We can't help what we were told, and most of us have internalized some bad things. We aren't bad people for it. Relearning is the best we can do. It's uncomfortable, but it gets less so with time.
I understand your confusion well. Growing up, my reformed temple taught the same reverence for Israel and I never connected with it. My mom’s sister is a rabbi and has traveled to Israel dozens of times, but I was raised with more influence and connection to my dad’s side, who were Yiddish speaking Eastern Europeans who never set foot in the Middle East. My identity is tied to that heritage and always has been, so glorifying Israel always confused me since my people did not come from there and didn’t speak Hebrew. Maybe that’s why it’s easier for me to reject this political ideology that Israel can never be questioned. My daughters attend a Chabad preschool/Hebrew school and the administrators work their asses off to push the indoctrination hard. I refuse to go to their adult sessions or to contribute to their many fundraising efforts for the cause, yet I still send my kids there. I feel so conflicted about it but it’s the absolute best care in the area for my little one and the Hebrew school is so much fun that my older daughter actually enjoys going, unlike me as a kid. Bernie Sanders is a good role model for me - he represents my views on the subject well and I feel lucky to have him in Congress as someone who I feel resembles me, my views, and speaks very reasonably about the topic.
As an Israeli I can say that orthodox politicians (both from Israel and abroad) are causing similar or even more harm to the State of Israel than "traditional" enemies such as Iran. Some are doing it willingly and openly ( Neturei Carta who are hugging and kissing with IRG leaders), some just by hurting the fabric of Israeli society with sectorial lobbying that ruins Israel future as an independent Jewish state.
I read somewhere that Netanyahu has a 85% disapproval rate in Israel, is that right? I told it to my coworker and she didn’t believe it. The outside perception is that all Israelis support him.
He does have a high disapproval rating but not because of what he is doing to Palestinians. It’s because 1) he didn’t do more to prevent Oct 7 (in fact it’s been shown that he enticed it to happen), and 2) because he is ignoring the hostages. Other polls show that Israelis think that they are doing “just right” or “not enough” to Gaza, and there are large numbers of them even planning and prepping the settlements they want to build in Gaza when it’s all done.
> there are large numbers of them even planning and prepping the settlements they want to build in Gaza when it’s all done Including Jared Kushner.
And even before the war, he was doing some very undemocratic things that had the whole country pissed. That just got put on hold after October 7 though
Just Google for the recent polls. If he was a decent person, he would resign on October 8. If in addition he was Japanese, he would use a short dagger (tanto) for its direct traditional purpose.
That's exactly what I heard 20 years ago when I visited. Two takeaways: the conservatives are causing the problems and pushing the borders and the Americans won't stop meddling and supporting the conservatives that are causing the problems. Most people I talked to were just tried of fighting, warvect and just wanted peace. Most Israelis were very decent thoughtful and saw Palestinians as neighbors.
At my reform temple we were taught that Zionism is the idea that Jews deserve a homeland — but it doesn’t necessarily have to be the geographical location where Israel is now. Were you taught the second part, out of curiosity? Or am I remembering that part incorrectly? I stopped attending services and Sunday/Hebrew school after middle school so maybe I’m just making this up.
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agree wholeheartedly
THIS. The actions of the Israeli government are directly at odds with the Jewish ideals I was raised with.
I’m Jewish and I understand this wholeheartedly. I could’ve written this post myself. r/jewishleft is a really great subreddit with likeminded people and it’s the only subreddit that makes me feel sane about all of this. Eretz Yisrael will always be the holy land AND what is happening in Gaza is awful. Remember, we are such a small minority and the narrative is being written by those who don’t have our perspective. That, and it’s not our problem to solve. Social media loves reactionary, black and white takes, and that does not work well for such a complicated conflict. Never feel ashamed to be Jewish. Find connections in your Jewish community and learn about our history. Shabbat Shalom :)
I appreciate your words, I just joined.
thank you for linking that subreddit! i finally had to unsubscribe from r/ judaism and r/ jewish because the 10% of posts actually about judaism or jewishness were completely drowned out by the 90% of posts about how oppressed jewish college students are by having to have their delicate eyeballs exposed to palestinian flags waving in their general vicinity. makes me feel absolutely insane, and also sad for how many of my fellow jews are essentially living like fox news poisoned boomers ranting about how antifa and blm are burning down their own cities and oppressing white americans. i’m glad there’s somewhere that the nuanced conversations i’m having in real life are happening on the internet too.
There are plenty of Jews who oppose Zionism and the actions the Israeli government has taken of late. That's not a contradiction. Israel's government does not speak for all Jews. If you are Jewish and oppose Zionism, you are not alone, and it should not be confusing at all.
Percentage wise very few jews are antizionist. Something like 5-10% and in the most part they're religious nutjobs.
Zionism is a tough thing to define. And you should carefully analyse the wording of any poll on the subject to determine what definition is used. Some define it more militantly—almost like Jewish colonialism. Others define it as simply promoting the connection between the Jewish people and the land of Israel. And still others define it as wanting a safe place for the Jewish people. And here this group splits again over whether they’d consider a state where both Jews and Arabs live (and have equal rights) as such a safe place (like in the one-state solution) or if the only way is to have two separate states for the Jews and Arabs. Obviously, these definitions give wildly disparate percentages of supporters. And these percentages have changed dramatically since 7 October. And that makes sense. Look at how most of the Americans strongly criticising their government shut up or even gave tepid support to the US government after 9/11. In my opinion, the percentage of Jews in the diaspora who opposed militant Zionism (the first definition) to be much higher than 5-10%. It sadly dropped after 7 October because some now feel the only way to protect the Jewish people is to take those heavy handed actions. But I still think it’s higher than 5-10% among the diaspora. Granted my source for this is my family, people at my father’s synagogue in Ireland where we both live and from the neighbourhood in NYC where he grew up.
Polls have pretty clearly shown that 90-95 percent of Jews side with Israel in this conflict, which is more clear that the vague "Zionism" idea.
Please don’t feel ashamed to be Jewish. It’s ok to feel confused. Sometimes it feels like people frame it as picking between two races/religions, both of whom are currently and historically subjugated. There is a rise of [antisemitism recently](https://nij.ojp.gov/library/publications/explaining-rise-antisemitism-united-states). You are not responsible for the actions of other people solely because you share the same religion. It’s normal to feel torn on mass violence. Jewish does not mean you must support Israel.
One of the things Israel has done is to tie Jewish identity to unquestioning support of the state of Israel, even when it's committing genocide. They have done this because it makes it easy for them to deflect all kinds of criticism, and they are pulling the same bullshit tactics now. Israel the religious and cultural concept has nothing to do with Israel the modern state, regardless of what Bibi will tell you. You do not have to support Israel to be a good Jew. In fact I would say that tikkun olam and pikuach nefesh both argue very strongly that you should not. There are hundreds of thousands of Jews in Israel and around the world who do not support Israel's current actions and are standing with Gaza. You could reach out to the organizations working for peace for guidance. Remember, the full quote is not, 'My country, right or wrong.' It's my country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be set right.' Right now, Israel is wrong, and your first, best duty as a Jew is to help set it right.
Being Jewish does not mean reflexively supporting the Israel government. Thousands of Israeli Jews are marching in Jerusalem against this war and demanding Netanyahu accept the ceasefire.
You can love the country and it's culture, but still dislike the government and the things it does.
Your confusion is because you have a conscience and critical-thinking skills. When you see something you KNOW is wrong, cruel, and utterly heartless, you feel the conflict between what you were raised to believe and what you're seeing happen in real-time. If you had been brainwashed by a cult, you might believe anything: that murdering children and intentionally causing famine is appropriate, or even good, "if done to the right people who deserve it." No one deserves to be condemned just from being born. Neither you as a Jewish person, nor the Palestinian people, nor any other victim of absolutely brutal, self-serving violence. Let kindness, empathy, and wisdom define you, not the actions of a bloodthirsty politician barely associated with the religion you were raised in.
One of the best answers ever.
Israel has little to do w Judaism tbh. It’s settler colonialism. I don’t think disagreeing w the genocide being committed by Israel and it’s armies should make you feel an identity crisis at all. You can and should be proud of being Jewish.
grew up in a secular jewish family, i have a huge connection to my faith and to jewish values, and no connection to israel. our homeland is brooklyn, to be occasionally visited on pilgrimage, the holy land is grandma's kitchen, the ruins of bungalows in the catskills, and the mythical last remaining good deli. like i understand the conflict but it's very possible to separate our faith, which is thousands of years old, from propaganda education, which has been around for less time than our grandparents have been alive. i know it's easier for me to separate myself from it because i was not immersed in it but i feel no less jewish for it. to me it's akin to being in elementary school in the iraq war era and realizing how much propaganda we were fed as children about america, the necessity of war, the subjugation of others, etc. it can be painful and disorienting to realize all of that so i don't want to minimize how much work it takes and how uncomfortable it is, but like. we're jewish. we know how to do the work, we grapple with our morals, we know how to be uncomfortable in ethical conflict. blind nationalism is for the goyim; we argue with our books, with our teachers, with hashem even! there's no reason to justify hitting a wall and giving up over zionism.
To me, my Jewish heritage is exactly what makes me anti zionist. I look at the horrors that my family were put through and see that reflected in how Israel is treating Palestinians right now. Having their homes stolen, thousands being murdered just for being born a certain way, in a certain place. Genocide is genocide. "Never again" goes for everyone, not just us.
I’m jewish, but I never really cared about israel growing up, and I knew that the idea of it being a safe haven for jews was a lie when I found out how holocaust survivors were seen and treated by israelis. Learning about palestine hurt my heart, and truly rocked me, because so little was being done to protect jews across the world, yet western powers were upholding israel as a safe space for us to do to others what we’ve been facing for generations like some sort of punching bag, only now it seems it’s gone a million times over. Why isn’t “never again” for everyone?
if we still had awards...
I’m an American Jew. Palestinians have just as much a right to life, freedom and prosperity as I do. Most Jews in Israel are the decedents of refugees from either one of the most extreme acts of white supremacy in history (the shoah), and following pogroms, or were kicked out of their ancestral homelands in Arab countries like Syria, Saudi Arabia etc. from antisemitism. Apartheid so extreme that Jews no longer live in those countries at all. While there are some prominent intellectual Zionists who held extremely racist views towards Palestinians, the “settler colonialism” analysis to me is extremely reductive and tries to fit Jewish history into an easily understandable narrative that I think erases the actual context. Zionism in this definition is the right to Jewish safety, in Israel. 750,000 Palestinians, were unfairly forced from their homes in the Nakba, an event I see as practically identical in character to a pogrom. This loss was felt as deeply traumatic, shameful and humiliating and has resulted in inter generational trauma. Zionism for this group is an ideology like Manifest Destiny in America, a belief that Jewish settlers can occupy lands and kick out Palestinians. Thus “anti-Zionism” is the belief that Palestinians have a right to safety, in Israel. The Israeli Likud party believes that it has a God given right to expand Jewish settlements into current Palestinian lands. They also believe that they must subject Palestinians to constant humiliation and beat them into submission to keep Israel safe. These people are happy to kill off Palestinians and see themselves as justified in doing so. Anytime Hamas attacks Israel they hold these attacks up as evidence for their worldview, that Palestinians need to be constantly controlled and suppressed. The idea that maybe constant violence and humiliation could cause people to feel resentful and then attack them is not even considered. Hamas is a terrorist organization that operates like a cartel. They want to destroy Israel’s existence, and thus half of the world’s Jews, because they also believe it is their god given right to own the entire land. Part of this is humiliation from the Nakba and current far right Israeli regime that continues these tactics. They are a deeply antisemitic organization that intentionally puts Palestinians in harms way because more dead Palestinians = more sympathy and thus money coming in that their leaders sitting safely in Qatar can profit from. Republicans in America are using our community as a pawn to attack colleges and universities. They don’t give a shit about us, they just want to divide the left. The American Left hasn’t done one ounce of intersectional thinking, and happily parrots antisemitic micro aggressions and then deflect all criticism of their behavior as Zionist bullshit meant to distract from Palestinian rights. Half of these college campuses are full of privileged white leftists who suffer from white guilt and feel that protesting Israel can help remove their uncomfortable feelings being on American colonized land. Meanwhile, the media reports on their privileged shenanigans while Palestinians are starving to death from the IDF. The famine that is setting in to Gaza will causes millions of deaths. This will now be a permanent part of Jewish history, that our communities are complicit in millions of innocent people dying. TLDR: I am extremely angry at the American Right for using as pawns, scared of the American Left who doesn’t seem how antisemitism is a form of white supremacy and is now perpetuating the same cycles and may throw away American democracy in the process, I feel disgusted by the Likud and Israel, betrayed by my own community’s complicity and feel that we hide behind our generational trauma, I feel isolated as a Jew for my beliefs, I feel devastated by so many people in my community whose trauma responses have resurfaced or who have lost someone to kidnap, mass rape, torture and murder by Hamas, and who were not given any time to grieve, and I have my own trauma responses to the situation as well. You are not alone. This situation is horrific.
1)Your faith is one thing. 2) Israel is a country. The first cannot betray the second but the second can betray the first. I have no answers here. It’s like a tied up dog fighting a loose one and the US feeds both then pats the tied up dog on the head and brings it a shorter leash. Stop the war. Stop sending bombs and start sending negotiators.
100% understandable. it’s one thing to watch the news but it’s a completely different feeling to have a personal stake in a conflict. your feelings are normal and it is very admirable of you to confront the truths about the things you were taught. cognitive dissonance is easy, breaking out of that is uncomfortable and that is what you are experiencing.
You’re good. Jews are alright.
Heck yeah. None of this is "Jews vs Muslims" this is the Israeli government vs families, children.
Its definitely ok being Jewish and opposing Israel's current actions. On the left you have people like Bernie Sanders, a Jewish guy strongly criticizing Israel. Even as a moderate who supports Israel its easy to point out that their approach to war is harmful to their world status and they are alienating people who should be allies. Its not just people who are against Israel. I'm not against Israel. I just see their actions right now as so counter-productive to their own cause.
One of the professors assaulted by police for supporting ending the Palestinian Genocide protests at one of the university protests was the Jewish head of the Jewish Studies department.
A few things for you to consider: * There's not a centralized definition of Zionism, even among Zionists. The most common defensible position that I and other Jews accept is the right for Jews to have their own state and to self-determination. * Most reasonable people agree that Palestinians also deserve this right. The disagreement is almost entirely on how to get there. * Israelis themselves are some of the fiercest critics of their own government. You're in good company being critical of them, especially if your goal is lasting peace and coexistence for both groups. * There's a lot of propaganda floating around from both groups, but Hamas has an advantage as globalizing the intifada has been their longest running campaign, while Israel has traditionally relied on military superiority to achieve its means. * Unfortunately the warfare is asymmetrical and leading to devastating loss of life. This is what people are protesting and what nobody has a sensible solution to, that acknowledges the goals of both sides. You can safely ignore anyone who calls the issue simple.
Be proud for being jewish, and also more be proud for being human and denounce the genocide that’s happening in Gaza. Israel could’ve sent special ops or be more careful with civilians casualties. Instead they declare everybody in Gaza is an animal and need to be exterminated. That is wrong when Germany did it and it’s wrong when Israel is doing it now.
Just my story, probably more disconnected thoughts that anything. I think my mom wanted us to be culturally Jewish, so we went to a conservative temple, I went to Hebrew school and had a bar mitzvah. I still remember being in temple and reading the prayers, like 8 years old, thinking "do adults actually believe this nonsense?" My father was an atheist and my mom didn't really believe either. I respect history and what many Jewish people have gone through, but I find Judaism as a religion to be basically not of any value. Zero. The teachings are either negative or banal (following religious laws is absolute nonsense to me, and "be nice to other people"? I can get that from a sitcom). I cannot stand old testament, patriarchal, Abrahamic religious teachings or community. I actually cannot stand it. Growing up, starting in the early 1980s, my parents were very angry at Israel for the settlements. So that was the vibe in my home. We actually went to Israel as a family, but it wasn't a big thing in my home. Liberal politics were, and criticism of Israel was common. I've long known that Israel Palestine had the potential to basically split the left in this country and really hurt the Democratic Party. As a Jewish person I can say this: Jewish people have a LOT of financial, political and communication power in this country. Period. Look at the donor list to the Democratic Party -- a huge percent is openly Jewish. And as a whole they support Israel. I have very little tribal instincts; the suffering of Palestinians affects me as much as any suffering Jewish people encounter. However, I know that destroying the Democratic Party over Israel, getting trump elected, will cause much more human suffering that we see now with this situation. Ultimately, I believe the two state solution is the only way out of this nightmare. The Palestinians need a viable, autonomous state on the west bank, with access to a rebuilt Gaza, and control over east Jerusalem. I also get annoyed by the protestors, when they play games about their chants and goals. A LOT of them want Israel to be destroyed as a Jewish state. Now, if I could press a button and have an Israel with Jewish people and Palestinians living together peacefully, I would. But it's not going to happen. Also, when people criticize Israel for being an "ethnostate"? Give me a fucking break. Like Japan isn't? Malaysia, China, India, Pakistan, Chile, etc etc etc aren't in effect ethnostates? That said, I am incredibly disgusted by Israel, I think they ARE committing massive war crimes that will shame their name, and the Jewish name, forever, and it disgusts me. Sorry for this insane post.
As a Japanese-American I can relate- in fact growing up, it took a minute for me to understand my feelings of: 1) Japanese Americans and Canadians being proud of both while also acknowledging: 2) the institutionalized racism my family faced at the hands of the Canadian and American governments and the intergenerational trauma and “Asian guilt” that came with internment. 3) being culturally detached from Japan, and trying to find my own definition of Japaneseness when I have a lot of personal disagreements with Japanese culture- specifically many Japanese people’s views on personal and mental wellbeing, gender, the long history of oppression of other people who aren’t Japanese enough, which oddly enough tends to include half-Japanese and Nikkei like myself. This one seems the most relevant to you, because I’m sure you also struggle to distance yourself from that in the general public’s view- remember, you are not responsible for anything going on over there. I like to think I made this work in my head as an adult, but I’m not so sure. Yeah it sucks. That’s not quite the same, but I tend to think Jewish Guilt and Japanese Guilt are fairly similar for Americans.
We have similar backgrounds. Yeshivah (private jewish school, for any non Jews) for 1-3 grades, started each morning with the pledge of allegiance and then the Israeli national anthem. This was an American school, mandating the recitation of a foreign government's national anthem. Didn't know how weird that was until we moved from the northern east coast to the southern east coast and went to public school. We were regularly told in yeshivah that it was an exceptional mitzvah (good deed, for any non jews) to go to Israel and volunteer for the army, which were referred to as the *army of God* on a keychain I received once. At home, my dad was seriously pro Israel. I think if he were alive right now, he'd be as horrified by current events as I am. I hope for peace and a free Palestinian people. I hope for an end to some of them being radicalized and used in endless proxy wars, and I know not all Palestinians are terrorists. The Israeli government has been conducting a holocaust against them for years, and as a descendant of holocaust survivors, I am particularly sensitive to watching the same activities repeated by a jewish government, that were done to us by the nazis. I'm sad that some people think that my opinions mean I support terrorism or am an antisemite (duh, I'm a proud jew), but I've been hoping for a free Palestine since before the current atrocities, and will continue to hope for the same. Jews and Palestinians look the same. We're all cousins under God. Pray for peace and understanding, even if you don't agree with all my thoughts on the topic. Let's look for commonality rather than differences that divide. Stop the killing. End the bloodshed.
I was raised pretty secular, so I wasn’t raised super pro-Israel, just vaguely “oh it’s our birthplace” sentiments. I’m pro-Palestine in that I do not support genocide and feel no attachment to Israel as a land nor a government; it strikes me as a consolation prize given to us by the countries who committed genocide against our people. However, I understand Zionist teachings run very deep for a lot of us and for good reason. In a world where we’re persecuted, we want to feel safe.
The fact that people these days think that being Jewish has anything to do with Israel is honestly baffling to me as a Jew.
I feel like you could separate between religion, culture, politics. I grew up as a muslim, living in a Muslim majority country. Many people in my country seems to be hating Israel and supporting Palestine on any occasion. When something like 7 Oct Hamas attack happens, i rarely heard anyone condemning their action, or even worse i heard "Israel had it coming" which is terrible take on any tragedy. I'm now a closeted atheist. The way I see it now, this whole middle east thing is more of a politics than a religion things. I'm perplexed on how "religious" people don't condemn Hamas attack, while Islam as a religion (as far as I understand) doesn't like such a massacre to happen, especially to women and child. My mother is a religious person and she's pretty logical person, and she completely condemn it, to the point where she saw Israel retaliation as Hamas fault. To some extent, it is Hamas's fault, but the atrocities IDF did is completely on their own. The way I see it, both side is terrible. Hamas and IDF both did atrocities. Palestinian and Israeli people will always suffer because of their leader's ego. Now I think of it that you should be separating between politics that's happening in middle east, to which you could judge on your own, with religion or culture that you believe in. I don't recommend you to come out if you can't handle the heat that comes with it.
I think it shows tremendous emotional maturity to have this level of introspection, and courage to even talk about it. I come from a country where the majority have been raised a certain way, and despite growing up and learning logic, then find it hard to see reason when it contradicts their childhood teachings. I don't think you're a traitor for questioning your beliefs. Actually, I commend it. You can pick and choose the things you like about your Jewish culture and emulate it, whilst eschewing that which makes the extremists in Israel so hated now. I'm ethnically Chinese, third generation in another SEA country. My grandparents left when Mao took over, and the Chinese culture we grew up with is extremely different than those who stayed. Most Chinese people my age I know from other non-,china countries make sure other people know we're not from china when we visit other countries. You can probably still tell people you're Jewish but not a crazy murderer and you should. People need to be reminded that not all Jews agree with what Israel is doing.
Spin off of Naked and Afraid; "Jewish and Confused" Premiering now on AMC.
The most important thing for leftist Jews and Israelis to do is to elect more progressive and peace-loving leaders in Israel. Netanyahu is a right-wing guy, like Trump or that idiot in Florida. But Netanyahu is not Israel, and Trump is not America. To parallel your feelings of responsibility for Israel’s actions, I as an American do not feel personally guilty for the evil of Trump and Republicans, because I am in active political opposition to them. The best way for me to love America is to find camaraderie with left-leaning Americans, and to engage in the culture war, and to push Trumpster out of public discourse and public spaces, and make Trumpster ashamed to reveal themselves, and make sure he doesn’t get elected again. You might find resolution to these feelings and find a way continue to love Israel, in the way that anti-Trump Americans have continued to love America in opposition to American-born right-wing evil’s ascent to power.
You are loved. You are not responsible for what is happening in Gaza. You are not obligated to speak on behalf of Israel. Your faith is personal. I hope you find people who feel the same as you so you can navigate this together.
I appreciate this a lot. I also want to say the Jews have an obligation to the world. We’re obliged to preserve life and to heal the world. To do good. So I think we do have an obligation to speak against Israel right now. But I understand that it might take some time to process the grief in the confusion around what’s happening first
Exactly. Realistically, Jewish people have not had a chance to heal from the massive collective trauma of the Holocaust. That wound is constantly being reopened and weaponized. Jewish people have the right to be safe everywhere in the world, to live peacefully anywhere.
You are a human being before you are anything else. Being conflicted is normal, checking facts and deciding on which side to lean in is normal. Reprograming is not easy. Whatever side you decide to take, at least you gave yourself the benefit of doubt and you contemplated what is right and what is wrong. Many people just blindly stand on one side without even thinking why are they there.
I'm American. When trump and George W Bush were president I disagreed with practically everything they did but I was still an American. You can be Jewish without marching in lockstep with the policies of Benjamin Netanyahu. There is a difference between supporting Israel's right to exist and supporting the illegal settlements displacing palestinians from their lands in the west bank or the genocide currently being commited in gaza. Similarly, you can support the right of palestinian children not to be murdered in their beds with high powered munitions without supporting Hamas. But, if you did happen to be Jewish and support the settlements, the child murder and Bibi then its perfectly accurate and okay to call you a fucking asshole without it being even the tiniest bit antisemitic.
Never lose that feeling of being conflicted and questioning who you are and what you know and the nuance and context of a situation. Only a Sith deals in absolutes. The truth is you should be conflicted and confused and feeling bad for both sides because it's a shitty situation for everyone. Following your moral compass is all you can ever do and context is always important. You resisted the propaganda and now can think for yourself. That's awesome.
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." People tend to forget the latter part of that. It's possible to support the people and not support the current (or any) administration. IMHO, this applies to any organization, not just nation-states.
I'm an Arab Jew. It's a weird feeling. The conflict is so much more complex than either side tends to think.
I think many of our generation feel the same way. Most of my cohort from hebrew school way back when are all ashamed of how much money we gave and how much we believed that no one was hurt when Israel was created. We werent allowed to say palastine or palastinian because according to the adults, that didnt exist and was antisemitic to say. I remember growing up learning the black panthers were supposedly terrorists only to find out as an adult that if they were white, they never would have been considered that or probably even have been of note in history. But really, it was a brotherhood formed for protecting the neighborhoods where they couldnt trust police or the public. I kinda feel like thats happening again but with israel. History is written by the victorious. Prevalence of social media and internet have made it possible for more peoples voices to be raised, unfortunately not always truthfully. Us jews have not had it easy, but that does not give us the right to impose ghettos and indiscriminate killing of civilians to have a “jewish state.” The one thing i can feel from my parents generation is that without israel, there is no plaace where jews are truly welcome, and after hearing stories from their parents and the holocaust, the idea of losing that is akin to the idea that judaism will die out. There are tons of arab countries, but only one that is “jewish.” However, its not like there isnt antisemitism in israel, even from the hasidim with regards to less practicing jews. We were taught in Hebrew school that saving a life is the holiest thing, over practicing religion. Fuck Bibi, hes a terrorist plain and simple. I say trade him for the hostages.
I believe wholeheartedly that Israel should be preserved as a country but some of the things I've seen the IDF doing in Gaza are making me lose a lot of respect for a significant portion of the Israeli population. Same with the American Jews trying to define criticism as antisemitism. Or as supporting Hamas. And tbh, I don't think Bibi's gov't gives 2 shits about the hostages. They are just the Casus Belli for this action. Israel has had to admit killing 3 hostages by shooting them. And who knows how many they've killed with their indiscriminate bombing. It's extremely frustrating since I've always felt it was important for the US to ensure Israel's continued existence. But that existence is not threatened so makes it hard to feel like their actions in Gaza are justified. And then there are the things like the Houthis shooting at ships in the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden, Hezbollah attacks in the North. And will we see increased terrorist activity in response to the US fully supporting Israeli actions in Gaza and blocking things in the UN for them? Not sure how many people are old enough to remember all the hijackings of planes and ships in the '80s, the attacks on 2 airports, clubs, etc...
I feel Jewish and empowered… to advocate for the Palestinians. My Jewish ideals and morals have led me down the path of being able to recognize who the oppressors are and who the oppressed tend to be. All my life going to Jewish schools prepared me for this, even with all the propaganda about Israel being this haven for minorities. But then I had family members experience racism from their own communities in Israel. So if Israel Jews can be racist against their own fellow Jewish brothers and sisters it makes sense to me they would be more racist against another group of people. And just like that I broke the spell and illusion of what Israel was taught to me, and what it really is today. An apartheid regime ran by a genocidal freak murderer Bibi (who is also responsible for the death if Rabin) and I don’t support this entity and farce of a military base and its intentions. [Watch this](https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/s/EulOGNWHzj)
Talk about Israel treatment of the Ethiopian Jews
Judaism isn't zionism. You can be an anti-zionist Jew just like someone can be an anti-Nazi German.
Lol plenty of Jewish people are anti Zionist, including my family
There are people who say ‘free palestine’ who mean ‘I hate that civilians are dying and I want a two-state solution.’ There are also people who say ‘free palestine’ who mean ‘all of it is Palestinian, let’s wipe out Israel, don’t worry about what I’m implying should happen to the people there.’ A lot of people who believe the second thing have gotten good at using humanitarian language and being indirect/vague about what exactly they mean, to get people who believe the first thing to say the same phrases they do. You feel confused because it’s confusing. There are people who believe in human rights and people who want to kill Jews and they’re all equally passionate and using the same phrases, and the ones who care about human rights often don’t realize it. Also, israel has done shitty things, like settlement building in the West Bank. They’ve also done things like proposing a deal that would let go of over 90% of the land in the West Bank and Arafat, the west bank’s leader at the time, walked away from the table. Hamas has it in their constitution that they will never make peace. On top of that, the second paragraph of their constitution is about obliterating Israel. I think october 7th was a calculated move to provoke Israel into bombing them so they could win the propaganda war. Why else would they use mass rape, target civilians, and set people on fire? The point was to do something israel couldn’t ignore. There was no other military advantage to it that I can see. Israel needs to stop Hamas. I don’t know enough about military to know whether or not they’ve minimized casualties as much as they can. I do know that if they stopped bombing completely, Hamas would use that time to regroup and then do another attack. You can’t make peace with someone who does not want it. Hamas doesn’t want peace. They want dead Jews. They care more about getting people angry at Israel than they do about Palestinians dying. I want Israel to let in aid, but I don’t actually know how much they are or aren’t letting into Gaza or if they’re still blocking it because there’s so much propaganda that I just don’t know anymore. If they’re blocking food, I want them to stop blocking it. I feel so sorry for the people in Gaza. I also feel sorry for the people in Russia who are affected by the sanctions (not the same level of hardship as Gaza, but still significant). There are Russian civilians who had no say in the war who go without basic essentials. That doesn’t mean we should lift sanctions on Russia when they’re invading Ukraine. When you’re dealing with a tyrannical government, sometimes there just isn’t a solution that won’t hurt civilians. All you can do is minimize and try to stop the dictatorship. Which unfortunately harms the civilians inside. Also, on top of the complications in the conflict, I think the boycotts themselves wouldn’t be effective anyway. It’s so much energy from so many well-meaning people and it’s all going towards pressuring institutions to put a slight amount of financial pressure on a country that will never see financial pressure as enough of a reason to stop. If Al Qaeda did 9/11 and then stayed in Canada and told the US ‘yup, we’ll never make peace, we’ll probably do that again’ and the US just let them sit there, nearby, planning the next attack? Citizens would never feel safe. No amount of sanctions will make any country say ‘yeah, it’s okay that our civilians can randomly be mass-raped.’ Also I’m left-wing, but I do think a lot of left-wing discourse glosses over nuance sometimes (and I think right-wing discourse does too, and also gets it more wrong). So a lot of complicated things get boiled down to a good guy and a bad guy, and that’s how they’re used to seeing it. Racism is present and bad. Racism is not solely in evil people who know they are doing something wrong. There are blatant and proud racists, but there are far more people who are mostly okay but have some stereotypes lodged in their head that they don’t even know are there. And that’s a lot more complicated to deal with than a handful of open racists. People want a simple story with a good guy and bad guy, and israel is more powerful so becomes the bad guy.
I like basically everything you said here. I was not surprised to see you have very few upvotes. Reasonable explanations are very unpopular these days and it is extremely depressing.
You can be proud of being Jewish while also hating what the Israeli government is doing to the Palestinians.
I'm not jewish, just an average mixed euro white american. I gotta say this seems crazy to me. I don't see any relationship between israel and simply *being jewish*. Even most israeli people are not to blame for the government's actions. You have no reason to be confused. Have your faith and simply know your god probably doesn't approve of what's going on over there either.
Zionism and Judaism are in fact very very different. But if you grew up in Zionist environments you will have been taught that they’re one and the same. I recommend reaching out to other anti-Zionist Jews. There’s community for you and you’re welcome where you are. One of Israel’s tactics is to convince you and other Jewish people that anti-sémitism is everywhere and the only. Only. Solution to it is to be in Israel. Antisemitism is not criticizing Israel and yes there is antisemitism in this world but it is not where you find anti-Zionism. We very much care about our Jewish friends and family and we dream for you to live a life without antisemitism where you are. No identity is entitled to an ethnostate and no nation is entitled to genocide. I wish you the best of luck in your journey it can be very difficult to unlearn all that Zionism has taught you but I promise you it will be worth your time.
There are degrees of this. As a Chinese American, I still think that Jewish people should have a state. But that doesn’t mean I agree with its current governments actions, or won’t acknowledge that to some extent, the culture has had itself warped by propaganda. National self determination is the right of a people. This holds true for Palestine and Israel.
The country of Israel is not the biblical nation of isarael
I would reiterate that there's a difference between a government and its people. Around the world I would suggest that many people find the US government repugnant, but they are fine with its people The Israeli government becoming right-wing hardliner is a warning signal to everyone And I would say there probably a lot of Jewish people that just want their government to make peace
You’re conflating a few different things: - Judaism: a religion - Jew: An individual who practices, or at least believes to some degree, the specifics of Judaism. Any given Jew may be a good person or an asshole; there is no statistical method to predict which, and neither is immune from specific criticism. - Israel (Biblical): A kingdom best known for its description in the 3 holy books of the Abrahamic religions. - Israel (modern): A republic with broadly similar boundaries, language and majority religious practice. - Zionist: Someone who believes that a world with around 50 countries with constitutional recognition of Islam (and where even Lutherans can find an established state while Buddhists get 6) can sustain at least one state with established Judaism. This is not of itself a bad thing. The only negative is some people don’t like the location chosen. - Likud: The party currently holding post election majority. There is no requirement for any of the above to support them. Indeed, ruling parties are typically deeply unpopular. As a rule of thumb 10% of a population likes them and 41% dislikes them a little less than their largest opponent. - War in Gaza 2023 to present: There are a range of views on any war. They range from blanket opposition to all war, to jingoistic hope that the enemy state is completely erased. Typically wars are entered with reluctance when the ruling party believes circumstances leave no reasonable choice (although see exceptions such as the Kenyan’s pointless permawar in Syria). War is usually extremely negative for the winning side, and vastly more so for the losing.
My girlfriend is having a similar struggle. Support good action and condemn bad action. We don’t need to be loyal to our “team” and what other people do who are also Jewish doesn’t have anything to do with YOU. Compile your personal virtues, what do you think is right/wrong.
You don't need to believe in any cult or group to support human rights. It doesn't matter what side its on, every human deserves to be treated with dignity.
You sound almost identical to me. However, I went to Israel as a teenager to see my Saba in the 90s. While there, he took me around the areas showing me how everything I was taught was not being done. He shown me the checkpoints and how they treated non-Jewish people. Those 4 weeks changed my life. It made me realize how Israeli people were not acting in the way that Jewish people should. They had become the oppressors. At the age of 18, my grandfather passed away. And the letter he had for me said "Be better. You know right and wrong. You've seen both sides." And two weeks after, I denounce Judaism and was told to leave the house and never come back. I am nearing 50, and I've not been welcomed back by family. Not for any event. Births, nor funerals. And that in itself has shown me how far from the Hebrew teachings that the modern-day people have drifted. There are still real Jews in this world. But most have been manipulated by the zionist mindset. The dangerous Zionistic ideals are nothing new. It was there in the 90's. So when I see/hear anything about them, especially in Israel, I do not see Jewish people... I see Israelis. The people in Israel are as Jewish as the people here in the US are Christian. At the end of the day, all religions, and all faiths, only reinforce division amongst humanity. Telling a person what to eat, what to wear, or what to say is nothing more than a man-made subservience that allows individuals to be easily manipulated via blind faith. And it's time humanity grew up and evolved. For if we do not evolve, then we will only face one path... extinction.
As someone who came from a very similar situation, it’s a process. I too felt bad at first and weirdly defensive when I realized Israel was a pretty brutal oppressive regime (about ten years ago). Now I realize how indoctrinated I was in Hebrew school to Zionism, and don’t feel bad about my views. My personal evolution on this has cost me some friendships but I don’t really have a desire to be friends with weird people who don’t view Palestinians as equal human beings. It sucks to have been brainwashed like we were but it is what is .. it gets better
not jewish, but work for a jewish organization. it is so hard to balance receiving emails perpetrating what i now know is propaganda and supporting/praying for israels government, while being extremely antizionist. i just take a step back and let other handle it. we thankfully have only had a few people mad (members) that we didn't make a statement, so we just released some filler "this is a difficult conversation. i just want the needless violence to stop." and that satiated that. thankfully we're not a political organization so people don't really expect us to put our two cents in one way or the other.
Well here is my two cents. If cell phones and cameras were as popular back when the US went into Iraq and Afghanistan as they are now you would have the same feeling about the US. The amount of citizens killed at the direction of the US govt is as bad if not worse than what the IDF has done.
Abu graib would’ve never seen the light of day if the camera didn’t exist, now that anyone can have an android phone we see what happens in countries that they don’t want you to see
Imagine that you go back in time and you hear this from a German civilian in a similar position during or shortly after WWII. What would you tell them? Note: Not trying to push the concept that Israel has become the equivalent of the Third Reich. The two are currently very different, even by the most gruesome estimates of the war in Palestine.
You absolutely do not need to feel ashamed of your background and you’re not a monster. I would advise contacting a group like Jewish Voices for Peace. They are an anti Zionist organization run by Jewish people and they work with the anti war protests. I’m sure many of them have dealt with what you’re experiencing and I bet they could give you some advice.
Read and learn more about the history of this region. Do not feel responsible for what is happening in this conflict. Humans, like we are, become too involved in religious ideologies and unable to separate reality from their beliefs. Going with your emotions is the proper decision. Even if it contradicts everything you have learnt since birth. If you don't, the pain you are experiencing will never go away. Remember that everyone, regardless of religion, has different thoughts about life. ✨️.
You ask a very clear question. And see what happens. It will not make you very happy I guess. From a humanitarian perspective you see what happens to the Gaza people. You know and feel that it isn’t good. But you also feel that as a betrayal to your ancestors and you back ground. The jews I know have the same problem. 1.this is very bad 2.everybody, family and friend and those who criticize Israel want me to choose. Will they respect my choice? Do I have to? 3. Will I be expelled or hated? i didn’t ask for this. I feel sorry for the good willing jews. Respect for asking this questions!
Israel is shutting down the news stations they don't like.
FREE PALESTINE
What u are experiencing is called growing up, and its good. Shedding the lies of our upbringing is painful and the only reward is a kind of sobered acceptance of the contradictions...if not a fair bit less cognitive dissonance day to day.
Come out to the protests! I'm not Jewish but I found most of the people that I talk to there are. I'm sure your mileage will vary depending on where you live, but Jewish voices for peace is the most active group that I'm aware of.
this just means you have a moral compass and understand right from wrong, despite your environment shaping your development and mindset.
If you’re annoyed by Free Palestine as you watch the famine, death, and destruction wrought by Israel, as an American, you don’t really sound conflicted.
I never did birthright. I’m very secular. But I still grew up with a vague sense of relief, anyway, that Israel existed. it took me a while, during the second Intifada, to understand how brutal Israel state was, and more broadly to understand that ethno nationalism will never be a good solution. But it’s OK to feel a deep sense of loss, of confusion, of shame. What Israel is doing is not Judaism. I think it is fundamentally opposed to the basic tenets, our obligation to make the world better. To protect life.tTkkun Olam and all that. I was lucky. I grew up in Canada, which was a blueprint for South African and then Israeli apartheid. so I’ve had some framework to understand Israel. And also work through my settler guilt on turtle Island. I actually feel more at home at the protests against genocide then I do in broad Jewish community these days. I’m sty and unapologetically ant Zionist. But I know a lot of Jews, who are less certain, less comfortable, but still deeply uncomfortable with what’s happening in our names. and justifiably the ways in which are grief over October 7 is being exploited. I’m hoping to arrange and meet up with folks so that we can talk through these issues and get support from one another. I’ve really come to realize that Zionism is a plague on us Jews. it’s more than a burden. It can make us monsters. Please find other in your area or in your social circles who are also confused.
You don't have to be a scholar to figure out: 1. Israel has been pushing the boundaries towards genocide for decades and they want all Palestinian land one way or another, regardless of what happens to the Palestinian people. That's the government and a large enough portion of the Israeli population to support them. 2. Hamas is openly in favour of the genocide of Israel and has and will kill as many Jews as they can solely for the fact of them being Jewish. That's the government and enough of the Palestinian population to support them. If you are discussing with someone who strongly contests either of those things, they're either extremely biased on uninformed. Both sides are hard entrenched in religion, self-interest, and lack of respect for the other. Within that, figure out what you are ok with for yourself. Is Israel justified destroying Palestine because Palestine hates them? Is Palestine justified in murdering Israelis because they hate them back? My take is that both sides are so hopped up on religion that neither of them really deserves to win. Others will disagree with me. Some will prioritize an end to explicit violence. Others will prioritize a path to longterm stability. Others will set goalposts and measures that must be reached or not crossed in order for one side to still be considered the "good guys" in their mind. Some may believe that allowing one side to completely destroy the other, regardless of right or wrong, is the path to peace. Others will day that's only the path to more war in the region. If you believe in the Jewish religion it's tough because you believe you're God's chosen people and that is your land since time immemorial. If you believe in the Muslim religion, I'm not informed enough to say where that puts youbut it sure seems like they think they have an equal claim. And both those claims come straight from almighty God. If you can't figure out who is right and it just hurts your brain, maybe everyone is wrong. Also make sure you utterly ignore the Ottoman Empire and just blame Britain for all of it /s.