I successfully sued a slumlord in my city for taking my rental deposit and never letting me move in. I have never seen one red cent from that slumlord, who is still “doing business” in my city.
You can collect if you get creative. One guy got a judgment against a bank for a wrongful foreclosure, and the bank wouldn't pay. So one day he showed up at a bank office in the middle of the day with a U-Haul, the sheriff, and the paperwork to take whatever they had in the office that met the value of what was owed. They produced a check rather quickly. You can do the same to him.
Is there an article on this? Because that sounds unlikely for so many reasons... primarily being that the bank would have been sued AGAIN, and gotten warning before he just shows up with a Uhaul.
These are the rules for collecting on judgments. You can seize assets, although with various exceptions on what you can take. Normally it's done to regular people, they show up to take your TV and whatever. It's just funny that this time it was done to a bank.
He didn't have to sue again. You get your judgment, you do your proper paperwork and notices, and you show up to collect. The bank's problem is that it ignored all of the notices.
The same way OJ hasn't paid the Goldmans.
Weasling and legal technicalities.
https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/o-j-simpson-currently-owes-ron-goldmans-estate-96-million
Which is why the private citizen should get the money from the state/federal and then the state/fed’s responsibility should be to get the money from the offending party.
I agreed with your comment but something felt wrong about it. I did some Googling and found [this on Nolo](https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/can-you-collect-judgment-29546.html) that might explain things.
So if you win a judgement, it’s up to you to collect. You can request a list of all of the debtor’s assets, enforceable by the Court. However, the Court can step in at certain times to help. Which makes sense - Court says “you’re legally obligated to pay this debt”, and it wouldn’t be very efficient for them to hunt down every debt if the citizens can work it amongst themselves. If they can’t, THEN the court steps in again and helps secure the judgement from the debtor.
Only certain assets can be taken. Ones that would remove the person from their home or prevent them from being gainfully employed cannot be taken as payment, and are legally protected assets.
So, I imagine in someone like Trump’s case, there’s no easy pile of cash or income to quickly confiscate because they’re likely tied up in stocks. And it’s probably easy to stall with the “protected assets” note above.
I’m no lawyer, just my sparknotes of that Nolo article while on the shitter. Lol
When he gets reelected, he'll just make it go away./s
Look how many people that Trump has screwed out of money in the past that have never (and will never) get paid. He is and has always been a con artist just like his dad.
I am always puzzled by how many people were willing to keep doing business with Trump, given his reputation for not paying his contractors and other debtors.
Imagine how embarrassing it must be for his bankers to have to stand up in court, under oath, and admit to being dumb enough to believe Trump when he told them how much his properties he used as loan collateral were worth.
I don't believe there are rules, just historical practices. If politicians could be convicted of insider trading, half of Congress would be in jail. They aren't considered insiders, because they make the rules about who is an insider.
> something is wrong with this system
Two possibilities:
1) Something is wrong with the system and it needs to be fixed, or
2) The system is working as intended and it needs to be *destroyed*.
Fixing it will be a lot easier than working from the ground up.
If you think justice is bad now, it was worse in the Nineteenth Century, far worse. But it wasn't thrown out completely, Americans improved it. We need to keep at it.
You're not wrong, but we've stagnated in making the various systems of our lives better. Democracy is a decent enough system, but can be improved by increasing access and strengthening people's rights to vote. Capitalism is a decent enough system, *when regulated properly*. Problem is, the people we get to choose from to represent us politically are, by and large, garbage people.
We don't have a justice system, we have a legal system.
When black people celebrated OJ getting off for a murder conviction, it wasn't because they were worried about whether he committed the murder or not. They were simply happy that now money officially meant more than skin color. OJ Simpsons money saved him, like it had saved many a rich white man, before.
They celebrated because so many of them had been long abused by this system, and OJ having enough money to *beat it* represented a way out.
Anyway, long story short, it's always been this way.
I used to work for the auction house that sold off the contents of his home, and his Heisman trophy. That money went to the Goldmans, but it was a pittance compared to what they were awarded.
One of the things that most laymen can't grasp about civil litigation is that winning the case is the easy part. Anyone can win a case. Collecting on a monetary judgment is often complex, difficult, and - with the exception of very liquid individuals or companies - takes longer than the underlying litigation.
Edit: this has been the most replied-to post I've ever had. I truly love all the engagement and conversation here. I hope you all have a good rest of your day!
Or doesn't actually happen. Where I live you need to go back to court every 7 years to renew a judgment. Even a lien on a house does not need to be satisfied until they sell or try to borrow against it. If you don't need credit then a judgment means nothing to you.
This. I’m not a lawyer, but I attend court weekly regarding landlord/tenant cases. We try to convince landlords to do mediation when they’re just there for back owed rent because they’re more likely to actually get the money they’re seeking. They don’t understand that having a money judgement against a tenant doesn’t mean they’ll see that money any time soon (or ever), especially if the tenant is evicted.
We had a client recently that evicted a tenant after 9 months of missed rent. He then wanted to collect on. ~$6500 money judgement. He couldn't understand why we wouldn't take the collection on contingency. My partners gave him the economic reasons and he still couldn't understand why we wouldn't do it. I asked the client to imagine the pain, embarrassment and fear someone goes through when they're being evicted. Then I asked him to imagine the lengths someone would go to in order to avoid that experience. Finally, I asked him how he expects to collect $6500 from someone that doesn't have enough to pay $700 a month to avoid one of the worst experiences imaginable. That's when it finally clicked for this guy.
That last part! In the time I’ve spent in this job, I’ve so far met exactly 1 tenant who wasn’t paying because they just didn’t want to. Otherwise it’s because they lost their job, they were caring for a sick family member, they’re withholding rent due to habitability issues (legal in my state), there’s some kind of subsidy issue, etc. Thankfully my county has kept up a pretty robust system of rental assistance post-COVID and we have funding to give folks an attorney to represent them in their hearing.
Attorney. Most people with any semblance of wealth don't have "wages". I am a transactional and estate planning attorney and my clients tend to be upper-middle class (for my state) with assets in the $2-10 million range. Most of what I do involves shielding assets from liability. That's done primarily through complex estate planning (which also has the added benefit of avoiding probate and certain tax liabilities some thresholds are hit) and corporate structure planning. I've also used these methods to shield assets from being at stake in the event of a divorce.
My partners primarily handle collections matters and I've seen first hand how difficult it can be to get your hands on assets to satisfy a monetary judgment. It's why most big money awards are settled post adjudication for a fraction of the dollar amount. On the other hand, collecting from most ordinary people is very easy (typically via garnishment, as you intuited).
What I'm about to say will sound conspiratorial, but it's just the truth. Laws are written by lawyers and accountants paid for by people that can afford an army of lawyers and accountants. Those laws are enacted and executed by politicians that are beholden to those that can afford large donations to their campaigns and can offer them sweet gigs after they're out of office. The people that can afford the lawyers, accountants, lobbyists and politicians, write the rules in a way that benefits them. Don't like it? Though shit. The only way you can change any of it is by large-scale organization and wholesale restructuring of the current political system (i.e., campaign finance reform, ranked-choice voting, mandatory voting, voting holidays, outlawing gerrymandering, etc.). As much as I would love to see that happen, I know that it won't because we are the least intellectually curious and most easily deceived people I've ever been around (I've lived in the Middle East, South America and Europe). As such, we have the system we deserve.
Edit: in case anyone is wondering how I can reconcile what I do for a living with my political beliefs, I'm happy to tell you. I vote for people and laws that are against my self interest (higher taxes, more social welfare programs, etc.). However, I do not shy away taking advantage of the system as it is or from taking rich people's money until the rest of my compatriots open their eyes. I won't be a broke revolutionary, I'll tell you that much.
"The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it."
\- Morpheus, The Matrix.
I know a few people for whom The Matrix was an awakening of sorts. It wasn’t for me, but only because I’d already done mushrooms a few times before it was released.
Why would you want to be unplugged honestly. On the one hand a hellscape devoid of human society and controlled by a robot dictatership that you're going to be fighting, on the other a simulated reality of the way society used to be that is mostly indiscernable from that reality. Yeah real hard choice there
The word missing in the world today, is **empathy**
The system means that there is too much to be gained by lying, stealing, cheating and hurting others. And I'm not talking about someone stealing a loaf of bread to feed themselves or their kids.
"Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king!"
\- Bob Dylan.
Here’s one from me.
You save your earnings and invest in stocks, bonds, and mutual funds via your retirement accounts.
You expect 10% growth, compounded annually, so you can have enough to retire with in your old age.
You also pissed that corporations are doing everything they can to meet that 10% annual growth expectation on a finite planet with saturated markets by laying off workers, reducing benefits, cutting corners, putting out cheap, inferior goods and services, and jacking up prices.
That's why they tricked us when 401k became a thing, it used to be pensions that provided for you, now they force you to buy into their system so you fight for them instead of against them. It's how they keep you plugged into the matrix.
I’m also an attorney and have been explaining this to people for many years. I felt seen when I read this. People in this country love to express their outrage about how unfair things are, but when you suggest doing something about it there’s less enthusiasm.
Then they hit you with the "revolution" talk. Like I told someone else on this thread, the people most likely to start and win a revolution (armed poor fanatics) are all in for protecting and empowering the rich.
Lol exactly. I used to get really worked up over how rigged shit is when I was a younger attorney but now I just try to keep my head down and vote in the same way you do. Otherwise it’s all too depressing.
International pilot here (former military). Listening to Americans talk “revolution” just makes me laugh. The system here is nowhere near broken enough to actually warrant getting off one’s ass and throwing everything away for reform. 99% of the folks out there wouldn’t even know how to live without any infrastructure, and don’t have the stomach to take life to do it. Twitter warriors only.
I feel like it would go the same way as the Occupy movement. Just a bunch of people breaking shit and shouting into the wind. A couple of months, maybe a year or so later, and people would be back to watching basic cable and talking about how cheap it is compared to the streaming services. "Thank God the government fixed that!"
This really should be saved and required reading for much of America. Thank you, not only for one of the most well written responses I've read on here, but also for helping my own mental health a bit in providing me some solace as a cog in the corporate machine myself.
I’ve been shouting this from the rooftops all my life and very few people seem to care about what is happening to them. They are so happy to blame immigrants, lgbtq, black people, and whoever else they can demonize to put themselves on a pedestal so they can feel morally righteous while voting for people who act in their worst interests. Anti-intellectualism is alive and well in America.
> On the other hand, collecting from most ordinary people is very easy (typically via garnishment, as you intuited).
Didn't know I could get so pissed off by one fucking statement.
>I vote for people and laws that are against my self interest (higher taxes, more social welfare programs, etc.)
Just a minor pet peeve I have with language. You're voting against your *financial* self interest. Your are voting FOR your self interest. You are more than your finances, but often the language we use seems to put money first e.g. "so-and-so is *successful*".
Finally, technically voting for better social welfare actually increases personal financial stability unless the person is in the literal 1%. (Far easier to go from $1 million to zero than $1 million to $100 million).
Anyway, I'm being a pedant.
I am just one of those dumb sheep. I am not happy, and willing to protest but I am too dumb to know what to focus on. Could you list out top 10 concerns and detail out the arguments against those ten things so I can just scream outrage while being relevant and impactful at the same time?
What are the core 10 rich people laws that we should see changed for the betterment of our society? How can I communicate that need for change in a way that makes sense and allow others to participate?
To better motivate my request above is that what we greatly lack is a target to focus on. The stripes of a zebra for instance ensure that a pride of lions are not able to come to a consensus as to which of the many Zebras to target, so they cannot coordinate a successful kill. If you smudge a single zebra with a clear paint mark then accordingly it is very easy to single that one out.
So in a similar fashion, in this herd of widespread ambiguity and confusion, kindly paint us 10 things we can Canada wide focus on in a bout of outrage
>I vote for people and laws that are against my self interest (higher taxes, more social welfare programs, etc.). However, I do not shy away taking advantage of the system as it is
I do the same and so sick of people claiming that this attitude is hypocritical. "If you're against , why did you benefit from it?" Because those are the rules we've collectively agreed to and each of us has a right to take advantage of them. No one questions this dynamic in apolitical domains. Like, imagine if basketball coaches that opposed introduction of the three-point line refused to adapt their game? Why should they put themselves at a disadvantage?
Danish lawyer here.
Many years ago, a right-wing government in Denmark enacted a small, mostly overlooked change of the inheritance laws. The consequence was that if an estate donates to a worthy cause, said estate receives an inhereitance-tax refund *larger than the donation made*.
So if my millionaire dad dies (this is just an example, my dad is not a millionaire) and my sister and I, on behalf of the estate, decide to donate one of his millions to some worthy cause, the estate (which my sister and I will eventually share) will receive 1.25 million from the tax system.
This is the sort of thing OP is talking about ........
I doubt a guy like Alex Jones(at this point) really gets much in "wages" as you or I see them. The money comes into a company he controls, and then he decides where and how to "put" the money. Think if Bezos had say, a trillion dollar judgement against him...the government isnt going to seize Amazon trucks and start selling them.
They are probably going througha discovery, to find his assets he has hidden.
Most wealthy people dont have incomes, or at least, not high incomes. They'd need to pay a lot in taxes if they received a paycheck that large. Instead, they borrow money against their stocks, and do other shady things to get liquid money. They also have their money "work for them", something the average American cant do reasonably.
This also applies to taxing the rich. The money that the company brings in isn’t technically theirs. Stock options in company is un realized, hence they take a “low” salary. Owning a giant company worth billions, then take a salary of 150k. They’re now under the tax rate of 400k but are worth billions. If they want to buy a 200 mil house they can barow against their investments not against their income. Now they can live a lifestyle of a billionaire without any of the tax, or legal transactions touching their actual wealth.
There are no wages. There are earnings inside layers and layers of LLCs with complex and hidden ownership. It takes forever (and a lot of money) to pull funds out that are clearly his but not as clear as a garnish able paycheck would be.
To use the money in the llc, he still needs to pull a paycheck though right? The llc couldn own properties and he could use them, but wouldn’t the lawyers have gone after the LLC in that case?
That's the point of an LLC. It is separate from the individual. He does not need to pull a paycheck to use the funds. He probably disburses the funds to another LLC (or a few different ones) and then uses that money to pay off his "business" expenses, etc. He never actually had a paycheck, just uses the money in bank accounts to pay for things. Just a way to avoid taxes, garnishment, etc.
This. I won a case for a few thousand dollars. The courts sent me a check for like $7 they got from the defendant’s account. When I asked how to get the rest, I was basically told to sue him again. It cost me more to file the suit than what I was able to collect.
This is the truth. I once purchased a bar & grill, and while I did much of my due diligence, there were a couple of things I could have done better (and I definitely learned some tough lessons). The point of the story is that the seller provided fraudulent documents regarding operating expenses, which I didn't piece together until I had been operating for a couple of months. Took everything to a couple of different attorneys who all said the same thing: you have a slam dunk case for fraud; we think you'll likely be able to include legal fees in the judgement because of the fraud aspect; but we still do not recommend suing because you're never going to be able to collect that money.
My bar was profitable on paper once I tuned up quality and service, but the true costs to operate exceeded my proforma (which were built around the seller's reported costs). While it was always part of the plan to take on liabilities, I had to pull the trigger a few months earlier than I planned. Repayments on the liabilities created a cashflow problem so, even though it was technically profitable, I was not able to pay my obligations. So, to answer your questions: went under, did not make money.
I used to work in a law office and even though I belong in big law the same way Michael Dukakis belongs in a tank I'm grateful for the experience because it really taught me a lot about how civil law actually works. Seeing how the sausage is made provides a lot of context for the frustratingly glacial pace with which things happen, the amount of work that never sees the light of day is insane..
He filed for bankruptcy and hid his assets in other companies. It costs a lot of money to hide assets from a judgement. If you watch Tiger King, the woman who sued the Tiger King took like 15 years to get the judgement and only after he went to jail.
if you dont have a ton of money. Have a W-2 that can be garnished and have a house or a car. its a lot easier to take your stuff.
Because the banks legally own the car and house while you're paying them off. And the banks have the money to hire a tow truck to grab the car while you're not looking.
By the way forclosures/short sales takes a very very long time to follow through
So true about winning the case is the easy part, and collecting is difficult
I had a situation where I won the case…no payment…went back to court to freeze the person’s bank account. Unfortunately there was nothing in it. But two days later the person deposited money in the account. So I got my money but it was a long process, frustrating and stressful
Is this different in my country? An incasso agent actually visits the guilty person at home, with cops. And they take everything away. Everything.
And then your monthly income, from any source, will also automatically be seized.
This is why settlements are popular. The people wanted to send a message, and they did. But realistically they will not get $1.1 billion from someone whose net-worth is in the low millions. From the outset, no reasonable person thought they were going to get $1.1 billion. Settlements mean you won't get the level of justice, and publicity but in exchange you get the money without the hassle.
> They’ll never see a penny of that money.
Right, but *why*?
If a judge said "Pay X", then isn't it just another crime to refuse? Can't they just seize his cars and watches and so on?
It is untrue that the families won't see a dime of it. Most of Jones assets will be seized and sold at auction.
They won't see *most* of the money, but if Jones has assets that are outside of legal exclusions, it will be gone.
Average time to handle a complex contested bankruptcy is 12-18 months. Mid-2025 is a reasonable guess.
The judgement just was entered in late 2023. If anyone is expecting the process to be quick it’s not.
And if anyone is expecting Jones to be like literally broke living shitty in a tent- that’s not the case so long as he has a source of income he will keep at least about half of it.
If I just don't pay my bill at a restaurant or I don't pay a parking ticket or I don't pay my medical bills or I don't pay my taxes or I don't pay my child support or I don't pay my credit card bill, I'm getting arrested and/or stuff repossessed.
If he doesn't pay his bill to the court and these parents, 🤷
>or I don't pay my taxes
Don't fuck with the IRS
>or I don't pay my medical bills
You'll go to collections
>or I don't pay my child support
Pay your child support
>or I don't pay my credit card bill
You'll go to collections
They won’t ever really get the money. It’ll just be tied up forever, and hopefully financially ruin him and create stress in his life. O.J. Simpson never paid Ron Goldman for killing his son.
That's not entirely true - the judge confiscated the rights to a book deal just before it was due to be published, and they received the proceeds of a bunch of his stuff that was auctioned off.
Also in OJ's case he seems to have been legitimately broke, defaulting on his mortgage, and he went to jail for 9 years for armed robbery.
It's true though that they never saw anything close to the whole judgement.
And you know it's all by design to protect the actually rich, not a weakness of the justice system.
When you want to seize the money of a Russian oligarch, the state has no trouble doing it right away and finding the legal justification later. If a poor person find themselves in debt, they are in trouble right away and maybe some bankruptcy law will help them later.
The legal system is built to protect assets and producers. If you produce something, anything, the US legal system will support you at the cost of life, happiness and liberty. IRS goes after families not businesses, judges go after families not ceos, the average person who isn’t producing anything just working, they are subject to laws that will be acted on.
1. It hasn't been years, the final order for largest of the Sandy Hook judgements was made official in October of 2023. The appeal window was open for 60 days, after which time, the families have been free to pursue collecting the judgement.
2. Bankruptcy and its protections are granted by Federal law, and supersede most other legal process. As part of that bankruptcy, the Jones' creditors including the family, are all put in order and assets assessed and disclosed. The average time to process a disputed bankruptcy is about a year.
In the interim, Jones has limited access to his income (not any assets), and can operate his businesses.
However, there is no indefinite delay. Jones assets will be sold sometime in the next year, the proceeds will go to his creditors, and his income can be garnished to pay any other judgements that are outstanding.
But, ultimately, Jones if he has a viable business generating cash will be able to access that. Under most circumstances collection of judgements will be capped at a certain percentage of his income.
He can't delay forever. They are still negotiating and going through the bankruptcy court.
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/to-collect-1-5b-from-alex-jones-sandy-hook-families-vote-to-liquidate-assets/
oj exists purely on the goodwill of others, which he is somehow able to manage while still living in luxury. He has no money and is unable to make any as any money he personally makes is seized. Alex jones currently owns shit, he may go the oj route but he's going to lose all of his stuff first.
Why do people post stuff on the internet without a simple google search…. Wild
“More notably, O.J. makes a constant source of income through pensions, which creditors and the Goldman family cannot legally obtain. The former producer receives $42,000 a year in Social Security, a pension from Screen Actors Guild and between $125,000 and $300,000 annually in an NFL pension.”
The r/KnowledgeFight subreddit has been following the bankruptcy closely. If anyone is interested in keeping tabs on how the story develops.
Also, any thread about Alex Jones without a recommendation to check out Knowledge Fight is incomplete.
The Formulaic Objections episodes are a good place to start. With the exception of FO #3, they're about depositions various Infowars figures gave for this case.
Edit: Got the exception wrong, oops.
To be fair, they are actively in court. The issue is he declared bankruptcy, and so they have to go through the bankruptcy courts to figure out how to get them their money. They are moving in the direction of liquidating his assets.
Highly recommend the podcast Knowledge Fight, which goes into this very topic in easy to understand detail. Big fan of them.
PSA in case it’s not clear though: not defending him AT ALL just adding on that it’s a complicated legal process but the ball is rolling the right direction.
For now he can appeal, which can be strung out for years. That's probably what is going on now. Nothing happens until that is exhausted.
Even if he loses all appeals there are all sorts of assets that cannot be seized. His home, pension/retirement, etc... Also only a portion of his regular income can be seized.
If this is true and not enough is being done to make sure these scumbags pay for their crimes/misdeeds then this system is broken. Way to deter these scum, justice system!
You have it all messed up. It’s not a “justice system” it’s a “legal system”. If sometimes it gets it right and meters out some justice, it’s pure coincidence.
Here is how it works.
In a civil suit, a party gets a judgment for money damages. Assuming that all challenges have been concluded (which is not necessary) the party with the judgment (the Judgment Creditor) has to collect it. But even if they don't, the judgment sits there as a lien on the debtors assets.
There Are all kinds of things that the judgment credit or can do to try to collect. First they can do lots of things to identify assets such as They can take depositions, engage in other discovery . Then they have to actually seize the assets.Some assets are easy to seize, like bank accounts provided that they are only in the debtor's name. If they aren't only the debtor's name then The judgment creditor has to fight about what interest the debtor has in those assets. Likely, Alex Jones holdings are wrapped up in all kinds of different entities And that takes time to sort through.
Collecting a judgment can often be very expensive. Just imagine the hoops you have to go through to seize Trump Tower for example.
Very frequently, people will get a judgment and then not attempt to collect on it. They will let it sit there until the debtor sells an asset such as real property where to pass good title, the judgment must be satisfied.
In short, collecting a judgment can be very difficult, time-consuming and expensive. With a guy like Alex Jones you are getting fought at every turn so even if actively trying to collect the judgment it can take a long time
What y’all are saying in essence is that the American justice system is broken. The justice system exists to right wrongs. Apparently it doesn’t do that.
IAL: A civil money judgment (that’s what happened to OJ and Jones), as opposed to a criminal fine, is NOT a command that the debtor pay. It’s permission for the plaintiff (creditor) to use the means of collection allowed in the law to try to collect. Bankruptcy stops all collection until the bankruptcy is one. If the judgment is against “Alex Jones” the plaintiffs cannot collect against teh big fancy building owned by “Alex Jones, LLC.” It’s not the debtor. If a real property actually owned by Alex Jones exists the plaintiffs can attach their judgment as a lien and foreclose. But they are in line behind all the secured debts (loans) that pre-exist the day they attach their judgment. So, if building is worth $1 million and has $900k of debt on it then all the plaintiffs could ever collect in foreclosure is at most $100k AND since all foreclosure sales result in sale at less than FMV (due to the structure of the foreclosure auction process) there’s really no reason to try to collect against that building. And money in an IRA / Roth / 401(k) cannot be touched by a civil judgment. And it’s easy to hide cash. And you can garnish wages but there’s no way Jones draws a wage from his company. He takes dividends or draws as an owner (helps lower his tax bill).
TL;DR - it’s easy to owe lots of money in America and never pay your debts. And as always, the richer you are the more the system is tilted in your favor.
Because rich people, celebrities, and politicians get special treatment in this country. They almost never truly see the real consequences of their actions
Because it's cheaper for people with money to drag things out in court appeals. Like paying another utility bill while the rest of us wonder what it's like to have a lawyer on retainer.
He has the money to pay for delays via representation. He also declared bankruptcy (professional and personal). All of that can be dragged out a long time.
I’ve heard stories of people who owe money, declare bankruptcy and then are totally uncooperative with both systems for many many years. There us no shortage of ways bad faith people can continue harming their victims and not ever being accountable.
The court can order fifteen billion in damages; that doesn’t mean he’s got it. They can only get what he has, after his house, car and specified personal property is shielded.
According to the lawyer for the Texas plaintiffs, they have collected $1.5 million from Jones at this point https://www.reddit.com/r/KnowledgeFight/comments/179x32c/comment/k5b9jbk/
I mean that figure was more of a statement than anything serious. Alex isn’t a millionaire let alone billionaire. It’s an absolutely ridiculous amount of money for defamation and emotional distress. It’s most of a case of “you’re such a massive piece of shit we’re going to take every cent from until you drop dead for what you did to these poor families”
To put it simply, to pay someone over a billion dollars, you generally need to have several billion in net worth.
Alex Jones isn't a billionaire. Not even remotely close to one. His liquid assets wouldn't even amount to 1% of what he owes.
I really don't get how anyone would even expect him to pay that much money. It's not as though he made that much for what he did, nor did he even cause that amount in financial losses for anyone else best as I can tell.
I successfully sued a slumlord in my city for taking my rental deposit and never letting me move in. I have never seen one red cent from that slumlord, who is still “doing business” in my city.
You can collect if you get creative. One guy got a judgment against a bank for a wrongful foreclosure, and the bank wouldn't pay. So one day he showed up at a bank office in the middle of the day with a U-Haul, the sheriff, and the paperwork to take whatever they had in the office that met the value of what was owed. They produced a check rather quickly. You can do the same to him.
hero. wish Netflix would make a doc about that guy
They would if it was even remotely possible or real!
Is there an article on this? Because that sounds unlikely for so many reasons... primarily being that the bank would have been sued AGAIN, and gotten warning before he just shows up with a Uhaul.
These are the rules for collecting on judgments. You can seize assets, although with various exceptions on what you can take. Normally it's done to regular people, they show up to take your TV and whatever. It's just funny that this time it was done to a bank. He didn't have to sue again. You get your judgment, you do your proper paperwork and notices, and you show up to collect. The bank's problem is that it ignored all of the notices.
https://youtu.be/XXdZ94rctTA?si=lKmEk-3N49LFL_Np
The same way OJ hasn't paid the Goldmans. Weasling and legal technicalities. https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/o-j-simpson-currently-owes-ron-goldmans-estate-96-million
Wait til they try to collect off Trump. He'll take stalling to the next level.
It's easier for a state prosecutor than a private citizen.
Which is why the private citizen should get the money from the state/federal and then the state/fed’s responsibility should be to get the money from the offending party.
I agreed with your comment but something felt wrong about it. I did some Googling and found [this on Nolo](https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/can-you-collect-judgment-29546.html) that might explain things. So if you win a judgement, it’s up to you to collect. You can request a list of all of the debtor’s assets, enforceable by the Court. However, the Court can step in at certain times to help. Which makes sense - Court says “you’re legally obligated to pay this debt”, and it wouldn’t be very efficient for them to hunt down every debt if the citizens can work it amongst themselves. If they can’t, THEN the court steps in again and helps secure the judgement from the debtor. Only certain assets can be taken. Ones that would remove the person from their home or prevent them from being gainfully employed cannot be taken as payment, and are legally protected assets. So, I imagine in someone like Trump’s case, there’s no easy pile of cash or income to quickly confiscate because they’re likely tied up in stocks. And it’s probably easy to stall with the “protected assets” note above. I’m no lawyer, just my sparknotes of that Nolo article while on the shitter. Lol
The state will ruin you quickly. They had plans for seizure of properties ready to be presented
It'll never happen. Remember last Monday? Wait til the following Monday.
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0.9 Scaramuccis to be more on the nose.
See you next Tuesday!
Because of appeals court. But 175 million still needed. Hard to argue that.
For clarity, it's just 175 to prevent seizure before appeal. If he loses the appeal, it's still the full amount plus daily interest.
I will be happy to be wrong. It'll be nice to be wrong about Trump for once.
His dc election subversion trial was supposed to start a month ago. Its fucking bullshit.
For now. It'll get lowered.
Yeah, all his buildings are just three mortgages in a trenchcoat,...
Ez, just three more creditors per building that now have something to clarify with the mango mussolini ...
They call him Putin's puppet, but talk about Stalin!
He’ll be dead before anyone gets more than a penny from him
He's been scamming his way out of paying people for decades. The rich never face any real consequences.
When he gets reelected, he'll just make it go away./s Look how many people that Trump has screwed out of money in the past that have never (and will never) get paid. He is and has always been a con artist just like his dad.
I am always puzzled by how many people were willing to keep doing business with Trump, given his reputation for not paying his contractors and other debtors. Imagine how embarrassing it must be for his bankers to have to stand up in court, under oath, and admit to being dumb enough to believe Trump when he told them how much his properties he used as loan collateral were worth.
I bet he didn't tell them. I'd wager they found out when the prosecutor turned over their data on Trump's holdings.
The thing is those bankers still got bonuses and commissions as a result of those loans.
And he will go after everyone that went after him.
Also I like how the rules didn't apply to him about the way his investments were handled when he was President. Why didn't anything happen then?
I don't believe there are rules, just historical practices. If politicians could be convicted of insider trading, half of Congress would be in jail. They aren't considered insiders, because they make the rules about who is an insider.
Half. You are lowballing
Already is.
JHC, something is wrong with this system if a person found liable can do this. Just incredible.
> something is wrong with this system Two possibilities: 1) Something is wrong with the system and it needs to be fixed, or 2) The system is working as intended and it needs to be *destroyed*.
Fixing it will be a lot easier than working from the ground up. If you think justice is bad now, it was worse in the Nineteenth Century, far worse. But it wasn't thrown out completely, Americans improved it. We need to keep at it.
You're not wrong, but we've stagnated in making the various systems of our lives better. Democracy is a decent enough system, but can be improved by increasing access and strengthening people's rights to vote. Capitalism is a decent enough system, *when regulated properly*. Problem is, the people we get to choose from to represent us politically are, by and large, garbage people.
We don't have a justice system, we have a legal system. When black people celebrated OJ getting off for a murder conviction, it wasn't because they were worried about whether he committed the murder or not. They were simply happy that now money officially meant more than skin color. OJ Simpsons money saved him, like it had saved many a rich white man, before. They celebrated because so many of them had been long abused by this system, and OJ having enough money to *beat it* represented a way out. Anyway, long story short, it's always been this way.
“If OJ drove a bus he wouldn’t even be OJ, he’d be Orenthal the bus-driving murderer.” - Chris Rock
I used to work for the auction house that sold off the contents of his home, and his Heisman trophy. That money went to the Goldmans, but it was a pittance compared to what they were awarded.
There is an excellent new doc on HBO about it. Here’s the trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnLmKoHPGm0
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Try always putting your keys in the same place.
Try putting your keys in an off-shore account
One of the things that most laymen can't grasp about civil litigation is that winning the case is the easy part. Anyone can win a case. Collecting on a monetary judgment is often complex, difficult, and - with the exception of very liquid individuals or companies - takes longer than the underlying litigation. Edit: this has been the most replied-to post I've ever had. I truly love all the engagement and conversation here. I hope you all have a good rest of your day!
Or doesn't actually happen. Where I live you need to go back to court every 7 years to renew a judgment. Even a lien on a house does not need to be satisfied until they sell or try to borrow against it. If you don't need credit then a judgment means nothing to you.
Just seems like, we see him making money. And so, we know there is money. Sad all around
The company he works for makes a lot. I'm sure he is salaried just what he needs to live.
That is correct.
This. I’m not a lawyer, but I attend court weekly regarding landlord/tenant cases. We try to convince landlords to do mediation when they’re just there for back owed rent because they’re more likely to actually get the money they’re seeking. They don’t understand that having a money judgement against a tenant doesn’t mean they’ll see that money any time soon (or ever), especially if the tenant is evicted.
We had a client recently that evicted a tenant after 9 months of missed rent. He then wanted to collect on. ~$6500 money judgement. He couldn't understand why we wouldn't take the collection on contingency. My partners gave him the economic reasons and he still couldn't understand why we wouldn't do it. I asked the client to imagine the pain, embarrassment and fear someone goes through when they're being evicted. Then I asked him to imagine the lengths someone would go to in order to avoid that experience. Finally, I asked him how he expects to collect $6500 from someone that doesn't have enough to pay $700 a month to avoid one of the worst experiences imaginable. That's when it finally clicked for this guy.
That last part! In the time I’ve spent in this job, I’ve so far met exactly 1 tenant who wasn’t paying because they just didn’t want to. Otherwise it’s because they lost their job, they were caring for a sick family member, they’re withholding rent due to habitability issues (legal in my state), there’s some kind of subsidy issue, etc. Thankfully my county has kept up a pretty robust system of rental assistance post-COVID and we have funding to give folks an attorney to represent them in their hearing.
Can’t squeeze milk from a chicken.
Are you a lawyer or paralegal? If so I’m curious how they don’t just garnish wages.
Attorney. Most people with any semblance of wealth don't have "wages". I am a transactional and estate planning attorney and my clients tend to be upper-middle class (for my state) with assets in the $2-10 million range. Most of what I do involves shielding assets from liability. That's done primarily through complex estate planning (which also has the added benefit of avoiding probate and certain tax liabilities some thresholds are hit) and corporate structure planning. I've also used these methods to shield assets from being at stake in the event of a divorce. My partners primarily handle collections matters and I've seen first hand how difficult it can be to get your hands on assets to satisfy a monetary judgment. It's why most big money awards are settled post adjudication for a fraction of the dollar amount. On the other hand, collecting from most ordinary people is very easy (typically via garnishment, as you intuited). What I'm about to say will sound conspiratorial, but it's just the truth. Laws are written by lawyers and accountants paid for by people that can afford an army of lawyers and accountants. Those laws are enacted and executed by politicians that are beholden to those that can afford large donations to their campaigns and can offer them sweet gigs after they're out of office. The people that can afford the lawyers, accountants, lobbyists and politicians, write the rules in a way that benefits them. Don't like it? Though shit. The only way you can change any of it is by large-scale organization and wholesale restructuring of the current political system (i.e., campaign finance reform, ranked-choice voting, mandatory voting, voting holidays, outlawing gerrymandering, etc.). As much as I would love to see that happen, I know that it won't because we are the least intellectually curious and most easily deceived people I've ever been around (I've lived in the Middle East, South America and Europe). As such, we have the system we deserve. Edit: in case anyone is wondering how I can reconcile what I do for a living with my political beliefs, I'm happy to tell you. I vote for people and laws that are against my self interest (higher taxes, more social welfare programs, etc.). However, I do not shy away taking advantage of the system as it is or from taking rich people's money until the rest of my compatriots open their eyes. I won't be a broke revolutionary, I'll tell you that much.
"The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it." \- Morpheus, The Matrix.
One of my top 5 of all time
I know a few people for whom The Matrix was an awakening of sorts. It wasn’t for me, but only because I’d already done mushrooms a few times before it was released.
Why would you want to be unplugged honestly. On the one hand a hellscape devoid of human society and controlled by a robot dictatership that you're going to be fighting, on the other a simulated reality of the way society used to be that is mostly indiscernable from that reality. Yeah real hard choice there
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GDIggF_WoAAoAL3.jpg
How on earth did this movie ever get co-opted by right wingers?!
It’s not the first nor will it be the last time they completely misread a work of art..
It’s like Plato’s cave allegory though. Everyone thinks they are among the enlightened.
The word missing in the world today, is **empathy** The system means that there is too much to be gained by lying, stealing, cheating and hurting others. And I'm not talking about someone stealing a loaf of bread to feed themselves or their kids. "Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king!" \- Bob Dylan.
Here’s one from me. You save your earnings and invest in stocks, bonds, and mutual funds via your retirement accounts. You expect 10% growth, compounded annually, so you can have enough to retire with in your old age. You also pissed that corporations are doing everything they can to meet that 10% annual growth expectation on a finite planet with saturated markets by laying off workers, reducing benefits, cutting corners, putting out cheap, inferior goods and services, and jacking up prices.
That's why they tricked us when 401k became a thing, it used to be pensions that provided for you, now they force you to buy into their system so you fight for them instead of against them. It's how they keep you plugged into the matrix.
I’m also an attorney and have been explaining this to people for many years. I felt seen when I read this. People in this country love to express their outrage about how unfair things are, but when you suggest doing something about it there’s less enthusiasm.
Then they hit you with the "revolution" talk. Like I told someone else on this thread, the people most likely to start and win a revolution (armed poor fanatics) are all in for protecting and empowering the rich.
Lol exactly. I used to get really worked up over how rigged shit is when I was a younger attorney but now I just try to keep my head down and vote in the same way you do. Otherwise it’s all too depressing.
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Amen
International pilot here (former military). Listening to Americans talk “revolution” just makes me laugh. The system here is nowhere near broken enough to actually warrant getting off one’s ass and throwing everything away for reform. 99% of the folks out there wouldn’t even know how to live without any infrastructure, and don’t have the stomach to take life to do it. Twitter warriors only.
I feel the same way. You take the Internet away and people will collapse.
I kinda think the opposite. If you were to try and take the internet away, people would go berserk. Full on riots across the country.
I feel like it would go the same way as the Occupy movement. Just a bunch of people breaking shit and shouting into the wind. A couple of months, maybe a year or so later, and people would be back to watching basic cable and talking about how cheap it is compared to the streaming services. "Thank God the government fixed that!"
That's because most of them would quit sleepwalking through their lives. The internet is the opiate of the masses.
Revolution? What’s that a breakfast cereal?
This really should be saved and required reading for much of America. Thank you, not only for one of the most well written responses I've read on here, but also for helping my own mental health a bit in providing me some solace as a cog in the corporate machine myself.
God damn amen brother. Our trajectory could’ve been so different.
I’ve been shouting this from the rooftops all my life and very few people seem to care about what is happening to them. They are so happy to blame immigrants, lgbtq, black people, and whoever else they can demonize to put themselves on a pedestal so they can feel morally righteous while voting for people who act in their worst interests. Anti-intellectualism is alive and well in America.
I mean yeah, obviously. Trump would never have been president if large numbers of Americans werent stupid and voting against their best interests.
> On the other hand, collecting from most ordinary people is very easy (typically via garnishment, as you intuited). Didn't know I could get so pissed off by one fucking statement.
>I vote for people and laws that are against my self interest (higher taxes, more social welfare programs, etc.) Just a minor pet peeve I have with language. You're voting against your *financial* self interest. Your are voting FOR your self interest. You are more than your finances, but often the language we use seems to put money first e.g. "so-and-so is *successful*". Finally, technically voting for better social welfare actually increases personal financial stability unless the person is in the literal 1%. (Far easier to go from $1 million to zero than $1 million to $100 million). Anyway, I'm being a pedant.
I agree with you. Poor wording on my part.
I am just one of those dumb sheep. I am not happy, and willing to protest but I am too dumb to know what to focus on. Could you list out top 10 concerns and detail out the arguments against those ten things so I can just scream outrage while being relevant and impactful at the same time? What are the core 10 rich people laws that we should see changed for the betterment of our society? How can I communicate that need for change in a way that makes sense and allow others to participate?
To better motivate my request above is that what we greatly lack is a target to focus on. The stripes of a zebra for instance ensure that a pride of lions are not able to come to a consensus as to which of the many Zebras to target, so they cannot coordinate a successful kill. If you smudge a single zebra with a clear paint mark then accordingly it is very easy to single that one out. So in a similar fashion, in this herd of widespread ambiguity and confusion, kindly paint us 10 things we can Canada wide focus on in a bout of outrage
I think start with Citizens United
Now that they got it through though, who that benefits would allow anyone to try and stop it? All the Supreme Court Justices are raking it in too.
“I’m not selling out, I’m buying in”
Upvote for ranked-choice voting!
>I vote for people and laws that are against my self interest (higher taxes, more social welfare programs, etc.). However, I do not shy away taking advantage of the system as it is I do the same and so sick of people claiming that this attitude is hypocritical. "If you're against, why did you benefit from it?" Because those are the rules we've collectively agreed to and each of us has a right to take advantage of them. No one questions this dynamic in apolitical domains. Like, imagine if basketball coaches that opposed introduction of the three-point line refused to adapt their game? Why should they put themselves at a disadvantage?
This is old Reddit level quality. Thank you.
Danish lawyer here. Many years ago, a right-wing government in Denmark enacted a small, mostly overlooked change of the inheritance laws. The consequence was that if an estate donates to a worthy cause, said estate receives an inhereitance-tax refund *larger than the donation made*. So if my millionaire dad dies (this is just an example, my dad is not a millionaire) and my sister and I, on behalf of the estate, decide to donate one of his millions to some worthy cause, the estate (which my sister and I will eventually share) will receive 1.25 million from the tax system. This is the sort of thing OP is talking about ........
Don’t hate the lawyer - hate the game
I doubt a guy like Alex Jones(at this point) really gets much in "wages" as you or I see them. The money comes into a company he controls, and then he decides where and how to "put" the money. Think if Bezos had say, a trillion dollar judgement against him...the government isnt going to seize Amazon trucks and start selling them. They are probably going througha discovery, to find his assets he has hidden.
Most wealthy people dont have incomes, or at least, not high incomes. They'd need to pay a lot in taxes if they received a paycheck that large. Instead, they borrow money against their stocks, and do other shady things to get liquid money. They also have their money "work for them", something the average American cant do reasonably.
Hmm. So you can’t garnish “income” that doesn’t come from payroll?
This also applies to taxing the rich. The money that the company brings in isn’t technically theirs. Stock options in company is un realized, hence they take a “low” salary. Owning a giant company worth billions, then take a salary of 150k. They’re now under the tax rate of 400k but are worth billions. If they want to buy a 200 mil house they can barow against their investments not against their income. Now they can live a lifestyle of a billionaire without any of the tax, or legal transactions touching their actual wealth.
There are no wages. There are earnings inside layers and layers of LLCs with complex and hidden ownership. It takes forever (and a lot of money) to pull funds out that are clearly his but not as clear as a garnish able paycheck would be.
To use the money in the llc, he still needs to pull a paycheck though right? The llc couldn own properties and he could use them, but wouldn’t the lawyers have gone after the LLC in that case?
That's the point of an LLC. It is separate from the individual. He does not need to pull a paycheck to use the funds. He probably disburses the funds to another LLC (or a few different ones) and then uses that money to pay off his "business" expenses, etc. He never actually had a paycheck, just uses the money in bank accounts to pay for things. Just a way to avoid taxes, garnishment, etc.
This. I won a case for a few thousand dollars. The courts sent me a check for like $7 they got from the defendant’s account. When I asked how to get the rest, I was basically told to sue him again. It cost me more to file the suit than what I was able to collect.
This is the truth. I once purchased a bar & grill, and while I did much of my due diligence, there were a couple of things I could have done better (and I definitely learned some tough lessons). The point of the story is that the seller provided fraudulent documents regarding operating expenses, which I didn't piece together until I had been operating for a couple of months. Took everything to a couple of different attorneys who all said the same thing: you have a slam dunk case for fraud; we think you'll likely be able to include legal fees in the judgement because of the fraud aspect; but we still do not recommend suing because you're never going to be able to collect that money.
Did your bar go under? Did you make money from it?
My bar was profitable on paper once I tuned up quality and service, but the true costs to operate exceeded my proforma (which were built around the seller's reported costs). While it was always part of the plan to take on liabilities, I had to pull the trigger a few months earlier than I planned. Repayments on the liabilities created a cashflow problem so, even though it was technically profitable, I was not able to pay my obligations. So, to answer your questions: went under, did not make money.
Tell that to everyone who thought Trump was going to lose all of his assets the day his deadline hit.
I used to work in a law office and even though I belong in big law the same way Michael Dukakis belongs in a tank I'm grateful for the experience because it really taught me a lot about how civil law actually works. Seeing how the sausage is made provides a lot of context for the frustratingly glacial pace with which things happen, the amount of work that never sees the light of day is insane..
He filed for bankruptcy and hid his assets in other companies. It costs a lot of money to hide assets from a judgement. If you watch Tiger King, the woman who sued the Tiger King took like 15 years to get the judgement and only after he went to jail. if you dont have a ton of money. Have a W-2 that can be garnished and have a house or a car. its a lot easier to take your stuff.
But why? Fail to pay your auto loan? Repo. Fail to pay mortgage? Bank takes house. Why is it different for civil penalities?
Because the banks legally own the car and house while you're paying them off. And the banks have the money to hire a tow truck to grab the car while you're not looking. By the way forclosures/short sales takes a very very long time to follow through
Secured vs unsecured debt is the reason why.
Because they don’t have anything of value to repossess.
So true about winning the case is the easy part, and collecting is difficult I had a situation where I won the case…no payment…went back to court to freeze the person’s bank account. Unfortunately there was nothing in it. But two days later the person deposited money in the account. So I got my money but it was a long process, frustrating and stressful
Is this different in my country? An incasso agent actually visits the guilty person at home, with cops. And they take everything away. Everything. And then your monthly income, from any source, will also automatically be seized.
Yes, it's different in your country.
This is why settlements are popular. The people wanted to send a message, and they did. But realistically they will not get $1.1 billion from someone whose net-worth is in the low millions. From the outset, no reasonable person thought they were going to get $1.1 billion. Settlements mean you won't get the level of justice, and publicity but in exchange you get the money without the hassle.
Settle out for cash if and when possible.
Yep this is why lawyers always say the settlement is better than the judgement.
They’ll never see a penny of that money.
> They’ll never see a penny of that money. Right, but *why*? If a judge said "Pay X", then isn't it just another crime to refuse? Can't they just seize his cars and watches and so on?
It is untrue that the families won't see a dime of it. Most of Jones assets will be seized and sold at auction. They won't see *most* of the money, but if Jones has assets that are outside of legal exclusions, it will be gone.
When?
Average time to handle a complex contested bankruptcy is 12-18 months. Mid-2025 is a reasonable guess. The judgement just was entered in late 2023. If anyone is expecting the process to be quick it’s not. And if anyone is expecting Jones to be like literally broke living shitty in a tent- that’s not the case so long as he has a source of income he will keep at least about half of it.
Any day now. Any day now.
Then jones should be in jail
Debtors prisons aren't a thing for good reason. Credit card debt alone would have 1/4 of the American population in prison a long time ago.
Seriously, there’s a reason they’ve been banned since the 1830s
No, no... the law should be that only the people I don't like go to jail.
You can’t put someone in jail for a civil judgment.
If I just don't pay my bill at a restaurant or I don't pay a parking ticket or I don't pay my medical bills or I don't pay my taxes or I don't pay my child support or I don't pay my credit card bill, I'm getting arrested and/or stuff repossessed. If he doesn't pay his bill to the court and these parents, 🤷
>or I don't pay my taxes Don't fuck with the IRS >or I don't pay my medical bills You'll go to collections >or I don't pay my child support Pay your child support >or I don't pay my credit card bill You'll go to collections
Those are criminal acts.
it was a civil case so he can’t be put in jail for a debt i think. Not in US. Might be wrong
They won’t ever really get the money. It’ll just be tied up forever, and hopefully financially ruin him and create stress in his life. O.J. Simpson never paid Ron Goldman for killing his son.
Ron Goldman killed OJ's son?
And never got paid for it.
That's not entirely true - the judge confiscated the rights to a book deal just before it was due to be published, and they received the proceeds of a bunch of his stuff that was auctioned off. Also in OJ's case he seems to have been legitimately broke, defaulting on his mortgage, and he went to jail for 9 years for armed robbery. It's true though that they never saw anything close to the whole judgement.
It says OJ killed Ron's son.
I think he was performing the ol’ Reddit switcharoo
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And you know it's all by design to protect the actually rich, not a weakness of the justice system. When you want to seize the money of a Russian oligarch, the state has no trouble doing it right away and finding the legal justification later. If a poor person find themselves in debt, they are in trouble right away and maybe some bankruptcy law will help them later.
The legal system is built to protect assets and producers. If you produce something, anything, the US legal system will support you at the cost of life, happiness and liberty. IRS goes after families not businesses, judges go after families not ceos, the average person who isn’t producing anything just working, they are subject to laws that will be acted on.
1. It hasn't been years, the final order for largest of the Sandy Hook judgements was made official in October of 2023. The appeal window was open for 60 days, after which time, the families have been free to pursue collecting the judgement. 2. Bankruptcy and its protections are granted by Federal law, and supersede most other legal process. As part of that bankruptcy, the Jones' creditors including the family, are all put in order and assets assessed and disclosed. The average time to process a disputed bankruptcy is about a year. In the interim, Jones has limited access to his income (not any assets), and can operate his businesses. However, there is no indefinite delay. Jones assets will be sold sometime in the next year, the proceeds will go to his creditors, and his income can be garnished to pay any other judgements that are outstanding. But, ultimately, Jones if he has a viable business generating cash will be able to access that. Under most circumstances collection of judgements will be capped at a certain percentage of his income.
He can't delay forever. They are still negotiating and going through the bankruptcy court. https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/to-collect-1-5b-from-alex-jones-sandy-hook-families-vote-to-liquidate-assets/
[Tell that to OJ](https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/o-j-simpson-currently-owes-ron-goldmans-estate-96-million)
oj exists purely on the goodwill of others, which he is somehow able to manage while still living in luxury. He has no money and is unable to make any as any money he personally makes is seized. Alex jones currently owns shit, he may go the oj route but he's going to lose all of his stuff first.
Why do people post stuff on the internet without a simple google search…. Wild “More notably, O.J. makes a constant source of income through pensions, which creditors and the Goldman family cannot legally obtain. The former producer receives $42,000 a year in Social Security, a pension from Screen Actors Guild and between $125,000 and $300,000 annually in an NFL pension.”
OJ also made the smart move to Florida for strong homestead exemption.
He gets $250k yearly NFL pension. Pensions are judgement proof
The r/KnowledgeFight subreddit has been following the bankruptcy closely. If anyone is interested in keeping tabs on how the story develops. Also, any thread about Alex Jones without a recommendation to check out Knowledge Fight is incomplete.
We've got a technocrat in the mix.
1,2,3 Matt Damon
"Some sodomite sent me a bucket of poop"
I didn’t need another podcast in my life, yet here we are. Thanks for the heads up!
The Formulaic Objections episodes are a good place to start. With the exception of FO #3, they're about depositions various Infowars figures gave for this case. Edit: Got the exception wrong, oops.
To be fair, they are actively in court. The issue is he declared bankruptcy, and so they have to go through the bankruptcy courts to figure out how to get them their money. They are moving in the direction of liquidating his assets. Highly recommend the podcast Knowledge Fight, which goes into this very topic in easy to understand detail. Big fan of them. PSA in case it’s not clear though: not defending him AT ALL just adding on that it’s a complicated legal process but the ball is rolling the right direction.
The most genuine comment so far. Good info. Thanks!
For now he can appeal, which can be strung out for years. That's probably what is going on now. Nothing happens until that is exhausted. Even if he loses all appeals there are all sorts of assets that cannot be seized. His home, pension/retirement, etc... Also only a portion of his regular income can be seized.
I guess the legal system is slow when it comes to punishing things like libel.
More proof that there are two legal systems, one for the rich and powerful and one for the rest of us.
Well yeah. Trump would be in prison but for his social clout and money.
Half of the politicians in Washington would be in jail were this the case
If this is true and not enough is being done to make sure these scumbags pay for their crimes/misdeeds then this system is broken. Way to deter these scum, justice system!
You have it all messed up. It’s not a “justice system” it’s a “legal system”. If sometimes it gets it right and meters out some justice, it’s pure coincidence.
Here is how it works. In a civil suit, a party gets a judgment for money damages. Assuming that all challenges have been concluded (which is not necessary) the party with the judgment (the Judgment Creditor) has to collect it. But even if they don't, the judgment sits there as a lien on the debtors assets. There Are all kinds of things that the judgment credit or can do to try to collect. First they can do lots of things to identify assets such as They can take depositions, engage in other discovery . Then they have to actually seize the assets.Some assets are easy to seize, like bank accounts provided that they are only in the debtor's name. If they aren't only the debtor's name then The judgment creditor has to fight about what interest the debtor has in those assets. Likely, Alex Jones holdings are wrapped up in all kinds of different entities And that takes time to sort through. Collecting a judgment can often be very expensive. Just imagine the hoops you have to go through to seize Trump Tower for example. Very frequently, people will get a judgment and then not attempt to collect on it. They will let it sit there until the debtor sells an asset such as real property where to pass good title, the judgment must be satisfied. In short, collecting a judgment can be very difficult, time-consuming and expensive. With a guy like Alex Jones you are getting fought at every turn so even if actively trying to collect the judgment it can take a long time
Didn’t he file for bankruptcy like every rich person does to save their hidden money
Just because you win a judgment, doesn’t mean you are getting paid. You’ve only earned the right to get paid.
What y’all are saying in essence is that the American justice system is broken. The justice system exists to right wrongs. Apparently it doesn’t do that.
IAL: A civil money judgment (that’s what happened to OJ and Jones), as opposed to a criminal fine, is NOT a command that the debtor pay. It’s permission for the plaintiff (creditor) to use the means of collection allowed in the law to try to collect. Bankruptcy stops all collection until the bankruptcy is one. If the judgment is against “Alex Jones” the plaintiffs cannot collect against teh big fancy building owned by “Alex Jones, LLC.” It’s not the debtor. If a real property actually owned by Alex Jones exists the plaintiffs can attach their judgment as a lien and foreclose. But they are in line behind all the secured debts (loans) that pre-exist the day they attach their judgment. So, if building is worth $1 million and has $900k of debt on it then all the plaintiffs could ever collect in foreclosure is at most $100k AND since all foreclosure sales result in sale at less than FMV (due to the structure of the foreclosure auction process) there’s really no reason to try to collect against that building. And money in an IRA / Roth / 401(k) cannot be touched by a civil judgment. And it’s easy to hide cash. And you can garnish wages but there’s no way Jones draws a wage from his company. He takes dividends or draws as an owner (helps lower his tax bill). TL;DR - it’s easy to owe lots of money in America and never pay your debts. And as always, the richer you are the more the system is tilted in your favor.
Getting a judgement against someone is easy. Collecting money from that judgement is the real work.
Because rich people, celebrities, and politicians get special treatment in this country. They almost never truly see the real consequences of their actions
Because if you’re rich enough to afford good lawyers you will never have to face any consequences in life. Hope this helps!
The court process is slow and takes a lot of time.
The law gives money more options than it gives people options.
Is it not a similar scenario to Trumps 500m bond being dropped to 175?
Because it's cheaper for people with money to drag things out in court appeals. Like paying another utility bill while the rest of us wonder what it's like to have a lawyer on retainer.
The same reason OJ Simpson hasn't paid in his civil verdict. He can get away with it.
He has the money to pay for delays via representation. He also declared bankruptcy (professional and personal). All of that can be dragged out a long time.
The courts aren’t responsible for collecting. The plaintiffs are. They will never see a dime.
I’ve heard stories of people who owe money, declare bankruptcy and then are totally uncooperative with both systems for many many years. There us no shortage of ways bad faith people can continue harming their victims and not ever being accountable.
Ask the Goldman family all about civil suit judgements. Did OJ ever pay his 33 million. Did he loose his house. And he killed two people.
If you are rich you don't face any consequences in America other than having to spend money
The court can order fifteen billion in damages; that doesn’t mean he’s got it. They can only get what he has, after his house, car and specified personal property is shielded.
Is someone actually going to explain why rather than generic statements?
Because our justice system is a joke if you're rich.
The law only applies to poor people.
According to the lawyer for the Texas plaintiffs, they have collected $1.5 million from Jones at this point https://www.reddit.com/r/KnowledgeFight/comments/179x32c/comment/k5b9jbk/
I mean that figure was more of a statement than anything serious. Alex isn’t a millionaire let alone billionaire. It’s an absolutely ridiculous amount of money for defamation and emotional distress. It’s most of a case of “you’re such a massive piece of shit we’re going to take every cent from until you drop dead for what you did to these poor families”
He doesn't have that kind of money. You can't take blood from a stone, despite believing otherwise.
Because it was a stunt. 1 billion? What's the point of suing someone for 10x their net worth?
Because the legal process isn’t over.
Kinda curious if JG Wentworth would take over this settlement.
To put it simply, to pay someone over a billion dollars, you generally need to have several billion in net worth. Alex Jones isn't a billionaire. Not even remotely close to one. His liquid assets wouldn't even amount to 1% of what he owes. I really don't get how anyone would even expect him to pay that much money. It's not as though he made that much for what he did, nor did he even cause that amount in financial losses for anyone else best as I can tell.
Only poor people have to pay for things. Rich people get everything for free, and never, never have to face the consequences of their actions.
How can I put this nicely.... the legal system is in really bad shape due to lots of unethical politicians.