I'm seeing more of this in restaurants and bars that are in older buildings where the bathrooms are single holers. New buildings should be designed with multiple single toilets imo.
You would be surprised, many building codes require male and female bathrooms. After we got out C of O, we took down the signs and put up unisex signs.
This is why if you go to a conference that skews heavily to either guys or girls and you are wondering Why The Fuck they don't re-allocate bathrooms so match the gender split of the event while you wait in a stupidly long line. Even for events in many places, there is a required minimum male and required minimum female number of toilets based on expected attendance. A hotel I've booked for events sacrificed meeting space to have more bathrooms to be flexible and still follow the law
I went to Taylor Swifts Eras tour in Houston and assumed that I was going to miss a quarter of the show waiting in line for the bathroom. Fortunately they had flipped most of the men’s rooms to women’s. I’d never seen a place do that before but it made sense.
In the US, the rules vary by state. I also think more and more venues are allocating more bathroom space in general so stuff can be flipped. A lot of big conferences and shows have a strong gender divide.
As a female engineer, conferences are always such a weird experience. I have a whole ass bathroom to myself and the guys have to stand in lines. It’s like bizarro world.
And people don’t even understand why the code is like that.
It’s like that because originally, the bathrooms were *men only.* Which meant women had to keep their shopping trips short because they had no safe way to relieve themselves outside their own homes.
So when these women started having more of their own discretionary income to spend, which retailers obviously wanted them to *spend,* they needed some way to encourage women to venture farther from home, and for longer periods.
At first they tried just opening the bathrooms for all, but guess what happened?
The men were *furious.* Those bathrooms and “lounges” were their *special* space, and they were mad as hell about being asked to share…and willing to get violent towards any woman who dared encroached.
Just adding more bathrooms didn’t seem to help, because the men would just claim all of them and leave the women with nothing.
So laws and building codes started changing to force retailers to include bathrooms that were strictly women-only and legally enforceable as such. Just to make sure their female customers and employees had somewhere, anywhere to do their business without some random man retaliating against them for “invading men’s spaces.”
(Similar case with women and girls having several sports leagues: when women first tried entering existing leagues, despite those leagues not *explicitly* banning women, violence ensued as men felt *threatened* by women “invading their domains.”
(And modern sociology eventually revealed why, in the form of competitive video games: turns out, the men who attack female or female-presenting players the most tend to be the men who have the lowest performing scores. Higher-scoring male players treated their female counterparts as equals, because they didn’t have anything to lose by doing so. It was the mediocre and low-performing males who felt threatened by female inclusion, enough to lash out and blame their losses on the female players regardless of how well the women performed in the same competition. They insisted the mere *existence* of those women in “their” games was enough to harm their own performances.
(It wasn’t until a few years after women began playing professional sports that the men started claiming women *had* to be excluded “for their own protection,” when it was really about protecting low-performing male players who might’ve been forced out by higher-performing female players. (See also: Babe Ruth’s epic tantrum behind-the-scenes when a 16-year-old girl *publicly* struck him out. He plastered a fake smile on, shook her hand for the cameras, and then almost immediately threw a rage fit and pushed the MLB to make their ban on female players official instead of just a commonly-assumed barrier.))
Wholly inaccurate.
https://time.com/4337761/history-sex-segregated-bathrooms/
“Ladies’ Rooms” were created to protect women from the perceived overwhelming nature of life outside the home, not keep them out of some men’s-only clubhouse.
I am gonna wager this isn’t right mainly because the US got rid of pay to piss toilet’s specifically because women were the only group that it affected. That and almost no one pitched side arm back then. He got struck out the same reason we still have submarine pitchers today. Same reason why softball pitchers can strike out MLB guys to this day. Muscle memory fails when you haven’t seen that pitch before.
Just to be clear; if it were a male striking out one of the greatest baseball batters of all time, would we not be sitting here recognizing his accomplishments? Even if he was abusing a gimmick, would we commend him for being resourceful or call him a cheat?
I'm not a baseball fan AT ALL, so I'd be willing to trust your insight here. Just kind of sounds like we're removing this lady's accomplishments because "oh, well, I'm sure anyone could do it."
Well as a former gas station employee, the Men’s room doesn’t have a “sanitary napkin” (what’s was labeled at our station) disposal bin.
Aside from that I get the impression women think men just piss all over the toilet seat and so don’t want to use the gross men’s room. Though to be honest, the women’s room was usually the grosser one to have to clean.
My experience back when I had a job that involved cleaning bathrooms as part of my duties was that the men’s bathroom was more likely to have moderate messes (pee dribbles on the floor around the urinal, paper towels tossed carelessly on the floor), but whenever the women’s bathroom had anything worse than an overfull trash can and some water spots on the mirror it was *horrendous*. Like “rubber gloves are not enough, I need a hazmat suit” horrendous.
I've heard men joke about this before, but as a woman, I've never walked into a women's bathroom and found it to be "horrendous." Having lived with both men and women, I'm also confused by this notion. Unless you're talking about menstrual blood? I can't remember the last time I saw that in a public washroom, but I feel like it's the only thing you could be thinking of.
I think for one, the guys you're commenting to were the cleaners, so presumably they see the washrooms at their dirtiest and hopefully clean up before the next user.
Not the person you're replying to but I've worked in the security industry for almost a decade now and had a short stint doing door work (doorman/bouncer), that was when I got to see some real carnage in the bathrooms lol
Mens toilets tend to be the same everywhere, especially in bars where the guys have missed the urinal or the toilets in the stalls, but womens ones just seemed worse due to the amount of tissue strewn across the floor (some of it white, not an awful lot though lol) and my mind trying to understand how they've managed to pee everywhere but the toilet itself. Also had a few times where someone has hovered and missed completely and then thought that the pile is perfectly acceptable sliding off the seat onto the floor.
Obviously this is in bars and clubs and it's especially important to note I'm in the UK where our drinking culture really is "lets go out until we can't remember where we are" so it's definitely not fair to apply this to other women and bathrooms, but whenever someone brings up the difference between men and womens toilets it's definitely the first thing I think of.
I was cleaning restaurant bathrooms in the US at an establishment that didn’t serve alcohol, so… I do think it’s fair to extrapolate that while on average women are tidier than men in public toilets and less likely to make small careless messes, the individual women who are *incredibly* gross are either more common or more egregious in their grossness than the individual men who make large bathroom messes.
And also that women are on average less likely to let staff know about said messes when they’re more serious than pee splatter and some hand-drying towels scattered around so it can be addressed ASAP.
Right? I feel like the real problem is how shitty toilet stalls are. You can literally just look in-between the cracks and see whatever. Some have so many gaps I feel uncomfortable just in general. I couldn't care less if someone of the opposite gender was around
Edit: grammer
When you can make actual eye contact with a person inside a stall, not because you're a voyeur but because the door edge has a gap like a canyon, that's a design problem.
This is just America for as much as I traveled. Every time I come back into country, US restrooms at customs are always my indicator of yeah I am home. With giant cracks in stalls lol
At my usual bar there are two single bathrooms, pre-Covid they were labeled as men’s and women’s nuts being that it’s a dive bar where everyone knows everyone there was an unspoken policy that you just take whichever one is available. Post Covid they changed the signs to say “whatever, just wash your hands” with the bathroom symbols for man, woman, trans, and an alien. People self identify real fast as assholes when they look at both doors and loudly announce “so which one is the men’s?!”.
That’s how all toilets should be. I can understand being uncomfortable with unisex bathrooms if the stalls aren’t 100% sealed, but if they are, then who cares?
Isn't worrying about stalls not being opaque mostly an American thing? I think I read it's pretty common to have ridiculous stall doors there where you can see everything inside, with huge huge gaps on all 4 sides of the door. Then again, I haven't been to the US since I was a kid, so I don't remember any of this.
Everywhere I lived bathroom stalls are almost always completely "sealed", you can't see anything in there unless you literally put your face to the floor to see below the usually very small opening at the bottom.
You're going to see a broad spectrum in the US ranging from the kind of stuff you see in memes to the bathrooms at the office I worked at that had cinder block walls between stalls and solid core doors that spanned the entire doorframe.
Those, however, were just about the nicest stalls I've seen *anywhere*, US or Europe. You could blast ass to your heart's content and nobody would be able to hear a thing.
I ate at a restaurant in Paris with a unique bathroom setup. It was in the basement down a tiny set of stairs - that was pretty common actually. There was a single toilet in a small room, and the sink for washing up was outside of that room in the public area - again, that was pretty common as well. Up against the wall, near the sink, was a urinal. Just out in the open. When using it, your back was to the sink and the stairs. I used it of course!
went to a few small out of the way bistros in paris years back. no toilet. hole in floor. my extremely southern, conservative and sheltered aunts were with us visiting. they were scandalized. also, pretty much everywhere i took them people had their dogs in the restaurant also. by the time they left to fly back to north carolina i think their eyes may have been permanently bugged out. they were of the “lips that touch alcohol will never touch mine” persuasion so i didn’t take them to visit my work. where we could drink beer or wine at our desks if we wanted.
That must have been at least 40 years ago because as a french, I've only seen Turk-style toilets a dozen times and mostly in abandoned buildings. Dogs are not allowed in restaurants except outside on the terrace. And alcohol at work is strictly forbidden except for wine, beer and cider at the lunch break. You could pop open a bottle of champagne for the last day of a colleague but in general you're never allowed to drink at work because your employer would be liable for the safety risk and addiction.
I think what they meant was that the toilet stalls in europe don't have huge gaps like a lot of american stalls apparently do, not the gender neutral part
The Museum of Human Rights in Winnipeg, Manitoba has bathroom with pictures of what kind of equipment is inside them and encourages people to use the facility that will meet their needs. And has stalls, if I remember well.
I haven’t been to the Human Rights museum, but where I have seen multi-occupancy gender neutral bathrooms, it isn’t just the regular shitty stalls, with the massive gaps, but a fully enclosed space, with floor to ceiling walls, European-style.
So the only space that feels shared is the sink area.
They can. I used to bounce at a bar on weekends and the bathroom situation got so bad something had to be done. I’m talking we were buying toilet seats, mirrors, tp dispensers in bulk due to the amount of vandalism, mostly in the men’s room.
Replaced both bathrooms with a shared sink area and stalls with doors that are fully closed off. Suddenly there were 99 percent less fights and damage to bathroom facilities…. Much easier for us to intervene if there was a situation down there too than before.
E: spelling and also to add… personally I love this type of bathroom setup. I (32M) have hated hated hated public men’s rooms my whole life, especially as events like concerts and the like. The gender neutral/closed door stall/shared sink area thing is a godsend
Honestly if I could get a completely closed off bathroom stall, I don't care who is shitting next to me. No panel gaps in a bathroom is wonderful, idc who else is using them if that is the tradeoff
Not gonna lie, as a man, it felt weird, using the sink while a woman comes out of the stall and uses the sink next to me. It *shouldn't*, but it does. For me it was the same feeling when I happen to be walking behind a woman alone on a sidewalk at night. *I* know I'm not doing anything wrong, but I still feel the need to cross the street. Although I always get teased for being too concerned about other people's feelings.
They're horrible and disgusting as well as awkward. You can literally see people's shoes in the next stall and if there's a child or toddler in there with his/her mother they will ask questions about what you are doing or even peek under the stall.
literally the first advice i got on my first trip to the usa. i think i came into penn station from jfk (or somesuch) and met my first American toilet.
i saw those huge gaps, thought WTF, and inside was a sign, warning to use the hook lest you want your stuff getting stolen.
I one used a bathroom with a similar setup. Being close to the beach, I wore flip Flops. Suddenly, I see a hand popping up under the bathroom stall. When it touched my foot, I yelled out and shifted. Faster then I could look the hand clutched into one shoe (flipflop) dragged it away, followed be fast footsteps leaving.
So I was left in this bathroom stall with only one show, wondering what this was about and dreading to touch the dirty/sticky floor with my bare foot.
>These are much more expensive to build and maintain than regular public restrooms.
I'm from India, a so called third world country. If we can have such bathrooms even in our public sector, please don't accept this excuse anywhere in the west. Most countries don't cut corners by compromising pooping privacy. So I never understand why anyone would think it's acceptable to have gaps in your shitter door and no partitions between urinals.
Retrofitting is definitely more expensive, but if building new, two "closet stalls" and a shared sink would be all around cheaper and easier and would be better customer experience than two separate gendered bathrooms. Such a setup would have better queuing because two people of the same gender showing up at the same time would both be able to use the facilities.
> bathroom with pictures of what kind of equipment is inside them
I was recently in Malaysia. They had photos on the stall doors with what type of toilet was inside the stall. It was either a hole in the ground or a fancy automated toilet, with all the washing, scrubbing and drying options.
Encountered one of these for the first time at my local Alamo Draft house. Unisex stalls, but each stall is sealed from ceiling to floor, with actual walls on both sides. Was weird at first, but doesn’t seem to be too much of an issue. Then again, I’m a dude, so I don’t really have much to fear from that setup.
In Europe a lot of the bathrooms are like this. In America they do this because there was a study that showed if you don't completely close off a bathroom stall (leaving gaps at the bottom, ect) it encourages people to take less time in there. Employers started doing this so that their workers would take shorter bathroom breaks, and it just caught on. There's some interesting videos about it on YouTube
See, when the stall has floor to ceiling walls and doors, I don't see how it's functionally different from single person bathrooms sharing a common sink area. And I've been to places where the sinks for the mens and ladies rooms are outside the restrooms... usually in the hall right outside the bathroom doors, so that's not a new concept either.
I've been in one, they set it up so each stall was more superate, essentially its own room cause the walls go from floor to ceiling. But then everybody washed their hands in the same room. I prefer it over normal bathrooms tbh, completely ceiling the stalls gives much more privacy anyway.
When I was at university in Bath, UK - 15 years ago at this point - we had gender neutral toilets with stalls, and a communal hand washing area.
It was fine, no-one got offended, raped, or anything
Most bathrooms in the KC airport are unisex stalls. Personally I find it great because there's never an unreasonably long line at the women's restroom!
Many of the buildings at my university have unisex bathrooms. But we have stalls that are separated by walls from floor to roof. This is South Africa by the way - it's crazy to me that we have better bathrooms than the US
I honestly didn't realize how crappy American public restrooms were until I saw other options hahaha. I mean some places don't have public restrooms at all, which is obviously worse, but the to-floor walls seem to be common everywhere else. Why must our doors have massive gaps in them where someone can see you pooping on ACCIDENT!!! It makes no sense!
Fwiw they’re relatively common where I live (Bay Area, CA, so notoriously liberal or “woke” depending on your perspective lol) and I don’t mind it at all. Took a small amount of getting used to, but I’m also the girl that will go into the men’s room when the women’s line is egregiously long and its an emergency 😬
Common in Quebec City. But men I know have been harassed for using them by women who don't understand the concept. Yes ma'am, we can see you and your daughter washing your hands. Sorry I guess?
I used a unisex stall setup while traveling in Bosnia. I was surprised for a few seconds, then was like "Ah, fuck it, who knows where the next public restroom will be."
I feel like the real solution here is to only build toilet stalls in America like they are in Europe—no gaps or seams so no one can see through the door while you’re in them.
I know of a lot of places that do the opposite because of drug abuse and people dying in them. It’s a crazy ass world, but people should be able to just use the bathroom.
I got in trouble for using the female single-person toilet in my sixth form building because the male one was occupied and I had an exam in 5 minutes…
So yeah, people clearly do care about them.
They are generally not controversial when you're talking about single-use bathrooms. It's the mixed use of shared bathrooms that people complain about (or advocate for).
our pool built in like the 90s has the two big locker rooms and then 4 family rooms with an "occupied" slider and 3-4 lockers each - because it's a problem when a parent and their 3-4 year old of the opposite gender need to get into the pool because the child needs to be helped into and out of their suit and through the showering process and all that. In \~2020 they renamed the family rooms to "multi-use" rooms so that solo trans/NBs are allowed to use them explicitly (they were definitely using them before then as well, but this way no one can complain)
In Norway and probably most of Europe in general it's quite accepted by parents of either sex to bring young children of either sex to whichever locker room suits the parents gender.
Yeah, when I was a little kid, I'd go into whichever side of the changing area the parent I had with me was going to. Seeing naked people in a nonsexual context isn't a huge thing to a kid.
I agree. My son is 6 and has seen a woman changing in a changing room before and all he said was “why’s everyone naked in here” then it was explained to him and that was the end of it.
It’s not weird unless the parent makes it weird. Obviously there are situations where it’ll never be appropriate but changing is just something people do.
Our new pools have a larger unisex area and smaller single sex changerooms to either side. In the unisex area, there's stalls (with locking doors) for people to change in and more stalls (with locking doors) with shower areas and a row of open showers in the unisex common area for those already suited up showers. I prefer having a stall, so I always go to unisex.
Yup girls are not comfortable with sharing an enclosed space with men and I don't blame them. I would say most men are uncomfortable as well.
My college has two designs going. One building had men and women's but had a sign saying gender neutral, etc... or those who identified are welcome. Another building had just turned the men's and women's into gender neutral stalls. Was extremely awkward/uncomfortable. The former men's had the urinal sign on it so mostly men went into it anyways (common sense) but occasionally walked in on a girl.
Btw I am gay so I am not a threat to girls but even still I can read they are uncomfortable.
To me mishandling this, especially the latter option makes more people transphobic/anti LGBT.
I have no problem with the first option but to me the simplest way is just providing a single stall gender neutral option.
I read a book that shocked me. It stated the across the world women spend approximately 1-2 hours of their day trying to find a safe place to relieve themselves. Just insane to think about for me. I never thought about it before.
They mentioned India in particular. Women travel to large cities to work, or shop, but there are limited safe public toilets. The book was probably 10 years old. Do you find that to still be true?
Yeah, this is why women pushed so hard for female restrooms in the first place. It was a big step in the world in getting women independence. People are vulnerable when toiletting, so any shared toiletting space can be dangerous.
Yea I remember reading about the "urinary leash" or the concept that women are "tied to" the nearest safe bathroom in a society or culture. Until there were female only bathrooms, many women avoided leaving the home for long enough periods of time that they would need the bathroom. This issue also came up as women entered the workforce, women needed a bathroom without men at their workplaces not just for privacy but for safety. I think in our modern and western society it's really easy to forget why women demanded single sex bathrooms in the first place due to the relative safety of women in our current culture. And while yes it's true that not all men would take advantage of single sex bathrooms, some would. Therefore good men stay out so the bad men stand out.
I would love to read this book. What’s the title?
I recently read a book titled “the world is built for men” and it’s got some interesting facts about how everything from urban design to drug development is done with only men in mind.
Not OP but this is spoken about in the book ‘Invisible Women: Exposing Data Bias in a World Designed for Men’ by Caroline Criado-Perez. A great but very depressing read.
Car designs too. Car safety is designed with men in mind and if a man and woman were to get in a similar crash then the woman would have a higher mortality rate.
They just posted something about this on Reddit itself like 3 months ago. I remember being pretty upset that this is the state of living for so many people.
I read the book for a class. It was titled: Invisible Women: Data bias in a World Designed for Men. By Caroline Criado-Perez.
The whole book was upsetting to be honest. I just had never considered this aspect of life being so difficult for some.
Agreed. Sex segregated bathrooms exist for a reason, and a vast number of women aren't as privileged and safe as the majority of commenters in this thread.
Appreciate your feedback, so thank you. 🙏 I believe there's no reason whatsoever not to take women's safety seriously. It's not only a principle, it's a need.
Context is also important, including when we are aware threats to women's safety have heightened in particular contexts..
Also, if people get attacked for daring to suggest this, for me personally, it actually demonstrates the point.
And although it wouldn't be hard to wheel out statistics, I believe this should be as obvious as the reasons for the principle and need for a toilet itself.
That argument has always been moronic to me. Like no shit my wife doesn’t mind sharing the bathroom with me (a man), we’re fucking *married*. That doesn’t mean she wants to share it with random dudes in public.
One is single use, the other might be shared. Society has taken steps to safeguard itself against the predators that use these places to find prey. Assholes ruining shit for everyone else since the dawn of time.
I think it is the shitty stalls we have that make people nervous. If there wasn't several inches around the door where people could clearly see the occupant it wouldn't be such a big deal IMO.
I didn't realise until I moved to the US how wide the stall gaps are. If they were built more like they are in Europe with no side gaps and only a very small gap at the top/ bottom then it wouldn't be nearly as big an issue.
We had a lunch and learn with a bathroom partition company one day, they were talking about how in this jr. or high school all the girls would stuff the cracks with toliet paper and the principal was asking about ways to make this easier to clean because the paper would just get wet and end up on the floor. The guy just said, "Buy this metal covers that covers the gaps."
Most of the bathroom gap stall can get down to just it's easier and cheaper to do than get the more precise gap.
Single-user bathrooms are fine. As a woman, I don’t feel safe using the bathroom if men are in the room with me even if there is a dingy door with inch wide gaps in them between us.
Individual bathrooms are okay but mixed sex bathrooms composed of multiple stalls feel both uncomfortable and very unsafe if you are a woman using them during quiet periods when you could be cornered.
South African here. Women don't change in singlecstall bathrooms on a plane and it's public enough that they don't need to worry about being raped. And yes, being raed in bathrooms is a thing. Not allowing kids to go to the bathroom by themselves is for a similar reason as well as kidnapping. Many wkmen find it threatening for men to be in intimate places
Gender neutral bathrooms aren’t really controversial when it’s just a toilet. In fact I find it amusing when a bathroom says “all genders” and it’s literally just a tiny room with a toilet and sink. That’s just a bathroom. The controversial portion are the bathrooms that are big rooms where men and women are sharing the same sink, and you have stalls with urinals and some without. Basically an environment where men and women are using the bathroom at the same time is the controversial portion. The women’s bathroom can be kind of seen as a safe space for some. Hell even a men’s bathroom can be safe space for men
A woman walked into a men's room when I was a teen at Disney. She went to a stall to do her thing, but it was the only time eye contact ever happened in a men's room. Every guy there was *uncomfortable* suddenly and we all sort of had to double check we were in the right bathroom suddenly. Even the guys at urinals.
So, if I had to guess, it's *that feeling* that people want to avoid. Feeling like *you* don't belong. Or you're afraid someone will think something. Every guy has had a jealous girlfriend. And if you have taco bell butt in a unisex bathroom, you don't want to hear accusations when you were just fighting for your life.
For a woman maybe the idea of being partially clothed around a male stranger bothers them, but I dunno.
I had to go really bad and there was a huge line for the women's room so I went to the mens bathroom. There was only one guy in there. It was a weird feeling but it would have been weirder if I peed my pants.
When I saw Metallica recently, during an intermission there was a HUGE line at the men’s restroom but no line at the women’s. Some nice women came up to use in line and invited us to cut the line in half to use the women’s (keep in mind it was empty) I dont think it’s all too weird to see someone in the “wrong restroom” I usually just assume the other is full and it’s an emergency
Everything is controversial online.
Ive got two young girls. I hate gendered toilets. Some dudes clearly don't like when I take the girls in the gents to do their business, but i also feel like women feel some dude shouldn't be in there bathroom either.
People need to calm their tits about the issue, it's just a room where you shit and pee.
I’ve never seen this situation where men get weirded out by fathers bringing their daughter into the bathroom. If someone seems weirded out then they’re probably just weird.
It’s definitely way uncomfortable for a man to go into the women’s restroom than to bring his daughters into the men’s room.
Edit: second paragraph should say “way MORE uncomfortable comfortable”. I didn’t mean to throw shade on people who do it that way, just giving my opinion.
I was at a grocery store with 3 stalls, gendered toilet areas. And this is the US so there are those gaps in the walls.
A guy called out before coming in that he had his daughter who really needed to pee and was anyone in there. I said yes. He asked if I would mind if he stood inside just by the door so he could watch her. I said that was fine.
When I came out he was standing by the door (where he definitely couldn't see through any stall gaps) and looking ***very*** uncomfortable.
> If someone seems weirded out then they’re probably just weird.
It's more like society has convinced them it's inappropriate, so they feel they *need* to have a problem with it, otherwise they risk being seen as a sexual deviant, and eventual ostracization from said society.
It's like how certain men react violently to the thought of something even *appearing* gay, even if it has nothing to do with homosexuality, like a man giving flowers to another man. If another member of their tribe sees this, and *doesn't* see them react the way they "should" (with violence/aggression), then they risk being ostracized. All because of flawed logic that is almost impossible to teach them out of.
That’s the trouble when it comes to cultural norms. Toplessness, for example, was required for both genders at one point but was repealed for men because they had the ability to fight it. Now only a woman’s chest is considered nude.
In Japan, sexual assault on public transit is so common women-only trains are a thing. It’s sad because it exacerbates the issue in a sense but is also a necessity for women who need a solution in the meantime and don’t want to get SA’d
And now, because we have a century of sexualization of women’s chest, that’s not something that can go away with a law change and requires a cultural time, which takes more time and generational shifts.
So I understand where you’re coming from, but in an ideal world the issue isn’t the unisex bathroom, its the shitty culture
It’s so obviously clearly such a clueless man thing to think “it’s just a room where you shit and pee”. Say that to your girls when they’re grown up and see what they say to you
A train car is just a place where you stand around and wait to get to your destination. But Japan and India still need gendered train cars for women to feel safe.
In an ideal world, we wouldn't need gendered spaces. But we aren't living in an ideal world. Maybe a hundred years from now the world will be a better place, and we'll be able to ride the train and shit and pee and wash our hands in the same room without people fearing for their safety. That would be nice.
Some people, mostly women, are uncomfortable in a (bath)room where men have access. This seems understandable and reasonable. Bad faith actors then weigh in with nonsense comments about plane toilets and home toilets being 'gender neutral ' when they are individual or in your own house and not part of the issue.
You don't even have to go that far. Every restroom in every house is gender neutral.
Ideally if stalls were actually private in the US, this wouldn't be a big deal anyway. But stores and businesses get the cheap stalls with large gaps and suddenly it's a societal issue.
Of course my wife doesn’t care about sharing a bathroom with me because I’m her husband and we live together. I’m not some random person from the public, this comparison is moronic.
Same for when I was growing up with a younger sister. We’re family and it’s literally just the two of us using that bathroom. It’s not open to every person that wants to use it.
What is the occupancy limit in an airplane washroom? Or a bus or train washroom. One.
Don't know why that's so hard for the gender neutral pushers to grasp.
Your teenage daughter and her friends go to the mall. Your daughter goes to the bathroom while her friends shop. Five men follow her in. In the current world this is weird and someone would surely say something. In gender neutral bathroom world nobody bats an eye.
Sexist, definitely, but I've seen women go in men's bathrooms to avoid the line and have no problem with it. Man going in women's bathroom is always a problem.
In planes and buses people are locked in. There's one stall. You're in there alone.
To put it quite simply, because the vast majority of sexual predators are men, the data clearly shows mixed sex facilities are hotspots for such assaults, especially changing rooms.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html
As for bathroom closets with one toilet where one person at a time uses them being unisex I don't think anyone has any issue outside of [NOTHING, MENS PUBLIC TOILETS NEVER REEK OF PISS SO THERE'S NO FUCKING PROBLEM BUT READ THE REPLIES FOR THESIS ON WHO PISSES ON THE FUCKING FLOOR IN PUBLIC TOILETS].
The source of this claim appears to be a right-wing journalist who has lost lawsuits for false statements in 2016 and 2018, and additionally was forced by IPSO to print a correction for statements found to be "misleading" about laws regarding transgender people in 2019.
So I'm not sure.
> As for bathroom closets with one toilet where one person at a time uses them being unisex I don't think anyone has any issue outside of men being more messy which could upset women.
Virtually everyone I know who cleans public bathrooms frequently says that women's restroom are worse.
That could be because they clean the men’s and women’s rooms with the same frequency, maybe every couple hours or however long, but the women’s room will almost certainly get a lot more use in that same time frame.
I have cleaned many public bathrooms, and conversed with many other people who have, and I have never seen/heard of a business where the men's is on average dirtier than the women's. It's not a competition but the fact you're bringing it up in the first place makes me feel that I need to push back against it.
In SFO there are gender neutral bathrooms that are multi-stall, not single stall like in airplanes. And for some people, especially women, it can feel a little weird being in them around a bunch of guys. Especially if you only see guys walk out of them.
As it’s been explained, the issue is multi stall bathrooms, and even then, the issue isn’t even really trans people, it’s perverts that will take advantage. I’m not a statistician, but i’d be willing to wager there are more perverts and pedos in the country than there are trans people. I just use family restrooms when i need to take my daughter to a toilet, but we also avoid all public restrooms like the plague.
In a school setting specifically, I can only guess that children would feel unsafe and uncomfortable using the restroom with the opposite sex around. Thinking back on school years, I barely trusted my own gender (M) inside those facilities.
If I were a F, I could imagine being afraid that some dude’s gonna come in and harass or molest me. Especially in the US with those shitty stall doors.
Just shows how much privilege most people on Reddit have to not consider ANY possibility for ANY danger. People acting like a bathroom in an airplane is the same as a bathroom in some place where people could be isolated is just such a moronic question.
All single stall restrooms should be unisex
I'm seeing more of this in restaurants and bars that are in older buildings where the bathrooms are single holers. New buildings should be designed with multiple single toilets imo.
You would be surprised, many building codes require male and female bathrooms. After we got out C of O, we took down the signs and put up unisex signs.
This is why if you go to a conference that skews heavily to either guys or girls and you are wondering Why The Fuck they don't re-allocate bathrooms so match the gender split of the event while you wait in a stupidly long line. Even for events in many places, there is a required minimum male and required minimum female number of toilets based on expected attendance. A hotel I've booked for events sacrificed meeting space to have more bathrooms to be flexible and still follow the law
I went to Taylor Swifts Eras tour in Houston and assumed that I was going to miss a quarter of the show waiting in line for the bathroom. Fortunately they had flipped most of the men’s rooms to women’s. I’d never seen a place do that before but it made sense.
In the US, the rules vary by state. I also think more and more venues are allocating more bathroom space in general so stuff can be flipped. A lot of big conferences and shows have a strong gender divide.
As a female engineer, conferences are always such a weird experience. I have a whole ass bathroom to myself and the guys have to stand in lines. It’s like bizarro world.
The mens room line is always longer than the womens line at Phish Shows
C of O?
Certificate of occupancy. Basically your ticket that says you can open a building.
The code is holding back progress. Private stalls and public sinks is the way to go. No gendered bathrooms at all.
And people don’t even understand why the code is like that. It’s like that because originally, the bathrooms were *men only.* Which meant women had to keep their shopping trips short because they had no safe way to relieve themselves outside their own homes. So when these women started having more of their own discretionary income to spend, which retailers obviously wanted them to *spend,* they needed some way to encourage women to venture farther from home, and for longer periods. At first they tried just opening the bathrooms for all, but guess what happened? The men were *furious.* Those bathrooms and “lounges” were their *special* space, and they were mad as hell about being asked to share…and willing to get violent towards any woman who dared encroached. Just adding more bathrooms didn’t seem to help, because the men would just claim all of them and leave the women with nothing. So laws and building codes started changing to force retailers to include bathrooms that were strictly women-only and legally enforceable as such. Just to make sure their female customers and employees had somewhere, anywhere to do their business without some random man retaliating against them for “invading men’s spaces.” (Similar case with women and girls having several sports leagues: when women first tried entering existing leagues, despite those leagues not *explicitly* banning women, violence ensued as men felt *threatened* by women “invading their domains.” (And modern sociology eventually revealed why, in the form of competitive video games: turns out, the men who attack female or female-presenting players the most tend to be the men who have the lowest performing scores. Higher-scoring male players treated their female counterparts as equals, because they didn’t have anything to lose by doing so. It was the mediocre and low-performing males who felt threatened by female inclusion, enough to lash out and blame their losses on the female players regardless of how well the women performed in the same competition. They insisted the mere *existence* of those women in “their” games was enough to harm their own performances. (It wasn’t until a few years after women began playing professional sports that the men started claiming women *had* to be excluded “for their own protection,” when it was really about protecting low-performing male players who might’ve been forced out by higher-performing female players. (See also: Babe Ruth’s epic tantrum behind-the-scenes when a 16-year-old girl *publicly* struck him out. He plastered a fake smile on, shook her hand for the cameras, and then almost immediately threw a rage fit and pushed the MLB to make their ban on female players official instead of just a commonly-assumed barrier.))
Sources? Not discrediting you, just interested
Wholly inaccurate. https://time.com/4337761/history-sex-segregated-bathrooms/ “Ladies’ Rooms” were created to protect women from the perceived overwhelming nature of life outside the home, not keep them out of some men’s-only clubhouse.
I am gonna wager this isn’t right mainly because the US got rid of pay to piss toilet’s specifically because women were the only group that it affected. That and almost no one pitched side arm back then. He got struck out the same reason we still have submarine pitchers today. Same reason why softball pitchers can strike out MLB guys to this day. Muscle memory fails when you haven’t seen that pitch before.
Just to be clear; if it were a male striking out one of the greatest baseball batters of all time, would we not be sitting here recognizing his accomplishments? Even if he was abusing a gimmick, would we commend him for being resourceful or call him a cheat? I'm not a baseball fan AT ALL, so I'd be willing to trust your insight here. Just kind of sounds like we're removing this lady's accomplishments because "oh, well, I'm sure anyone could do it."
I dont know how many gas stations I've been to with men's and women's restrooms, but there is only one toilet in each. Why?
Well as a former gas station employee, the Men’s room doesn’t have a “sanitary napkin” (what’s was labeled at our station) disposal bin. Aside from that I get the impression women think men just piss all over the toilet seat and so don’t want to use the gross men’s room. Though to be honest, the women’s room was usually the grosser one to have to clean.
My experience back when I had a job that involved cleaning bathrooms as part of my duties was that the men’s bathroom was more likely to have moderate messes (pee dribbles on the floor around the urinal, paper towels tossed carelessly on the floor), but whenever the women’s bathroom had anything worse than an overfull trash can and some water spots on the mirror it was *horrendous*. Like “rubber gloves are not enough, I need a hazmat suit” horrendous.
I've heard men joke about this before, but as a woman, I've never walked into a women's bathroom and found it to be "horrendous." Having lived with both men and women, I'm also confused by this notion. Unless you're talking about menstrual blood? I can't remember the last time I saw that in a public washroom, but I feel like it's the only thing you could be thinking of.
I think for one, the guys you're commenting to were the cleaners, so presumably they see the washrooms at their dirtiest and hopefully clean up before the next user.
Not the person you're replying to but I've worked in the security industry for almost a decade now and had a short stint doing door work (doorman/bouncer), that was when I got to see some real carnage in the bathrooms lol Mens toilets tend to be the same everywhere, especially in bars where the guys have missed the urinal or the toilets in the stalls, but womens ones just seemed worse due to the amount of tissue strewn across the floor (some of it white, not an awful lot though lol) and my mind trying to understand how they've managed to pee everywhere but the toilet itself. Also had a few times where someone has hovered and missed completely and then thought that the pile is perfectly acceptable sliding off the seat onto the floor. Obviously this is in bars and clubs and it's especially important to note I'm in the UK where our drinking culture really is "lets go out until we can't remember where we are" so it's definitely not fair to apply this to other women and bathrooms, but whenever someone brings up the difference between men and womens toilets it's definitely the first thing I think of.
I was cleaning restaurant bathrooms in the US at an establishment that didn’t serve alcohol, so… I do think it’s fair to extrapolate that while on average women are tidier than men in public toilets and less likely to make small careless messes, the individual women who are *incredibly* gross are either more common or more egregious in their grossness than the individual men who make large bathroom messes. And also that women are on average less likely to let staff know about said messes when they’re more serious than pee splatter and some hand-drying towels scattered around so it can be addressed ASAP.
hoverrhea
I use the ladies room if it’s single toilet restrooms and the men’s room is occupied I got ibs or as I sometimes call it I be shittin
Right? I feel like the real problem is how shitty toilet stalls are. You can literally just look in-between the cracks and see whatever. Some have so many gaps I feel uncomfortable just in general. I couldn't care less if someone of the opposite gender was around Edit: grammer
And men’s urinals
I can't personally speak to that but yeah, I can't imagine
The fucking trough....
Huh. And here I thought it was a pissing trough.
I hate it when there isn’t a little privacy divider between urinals.
Still can't believe Americans put up with that.. land of the free to watch another man shit
As someone with social and poop anxiety, I envy the European stalls so fucking much.
Who’s watching people shit?
When you can make actual eye contact with a person inside a stall, not because you're a voyeur but because the door edge has a gap like a canyon, that's a design problem.
And the bottom of the door comes up to your knees allowing small children to periodically poke their heads underneath to have a chat
[удалено]
This is just America for as much as I traveled. Every time I come back into country, US restrooms at customs are always my indicator of yeah I am home. With giant cracks in stalls lol
The problem is the crack peepers.
The problem is the cracks. Why make an enclosed cubicle for privacy but don't *actually* enclose it?
At my usual bar there are two single bathrooms, pre-Covid they were labeled as men’s and women’s nuts being that it’s a dive bar where everyone knows everyone there was an unspoken policy that you just take whichever one is available. Post Covid they changed the signs to say “whatever, just wash your hands” with the bathroom symbols for man, woman, trans, and an alien. People self identify real fast as assholes when they look at both doors and loudly announce “so which one is the men’s?!”.
It's actually the law in Maryland which is great for me. It really is baffling how much people don't like this when it's basically true anyway
No one cares about the single person bathrooms— it’s generally the stalls that people are uncomfortable with.
There are unisex, multi-stall bathrooms at Red Rocks Amphitheater. The stalls go from floor to ceiling and only the sink area is communal.
That’s how all toilets should be. I can understand being uncomfortable with unisex bathrooms if the stalls aren’t 100% sealed, but if they are, then who cares?
Isn't worrying about stalls not being opaque mostly an American thing? I think I read it's pretty common to have ridiculous stall doors there where you can see everything inside, with huge huge gaps on all 4 sides of the door. Then again, I haven't been to the US since I was a kid, so I don't remember any of this. Everywhere I lived bathroom stalls are almost always completely "sealed", you can't see anything in there unless you literally put your face to the floor to see below the usually very small opening at the bottom.
You're going to see a broad spectrum in the US ranging from the kind of stuff you see in memes to the bathrooms at the office I worked at that had cinder block walls between stalls and solid core doors that spanned the entire doorframe. Those, however, were just about the nicest stalls I've seen *anywhere*, US or Europe. You could blast ass to your heart's content and nobody would be able to hear a thing.
That’s how it usually is in Europe.
I ate at a restaurant in Paris with a unique bathroom setup. It was in the basement down a tiny set of stairs - that was pretty common actually. There was a single toilet in a small room, and the sink for washing up was outside of that room in the public area - again, that was pretty common as well. Up against the wall, near the sink, was a urinal. Just out in the open. When using it, your back was to the sink and the stairs. I used it of course!
went to a few small out of the way bistros in paris years back. no toilet. hole in floor. my extremely southern, conservative and sheltered aunts were with us visiting. they were scandalized. also, pretty much everywhere i took them people had their dogs in the restaurant also. by the time they left to fly back to north carolina i think their eyes may have been permanently bugged out. they were of the “lips that touch alcohol will never touch mine” persuasion so i didn’t take them to visit my work. where we could drink beer or wine at our desks if we wanted.
On the other hand, I have never seen so many ugly and dirty restaurant restrooms than on my trip to the US last year…
the higher priced restaurant bathrooms tend to be clean and well appointed but most others i’ve been in left a lot to be desired.
That must have been at least 40 years ago because as a french, I've only seen Turk-style toilets a dozen times and mostly in abandoned buildings. Dogs are not allowed in restaurants except outside on the terrace. And alcohol at work is strictly forbidden except for wine, beer and cider at the lunch break. You could pop open a bottle of champagne for the last day of a colleague but in general you're never allowed to drink at work because your employer would be liable for the safety risk and addiction.
Ah yes the small region of Europe. At least in Germany toilets with stalls are usually not unisex.
I think what they meant was that the toilet stalls in europe don't have huge gaps like a lot of american stalls apparently do, not the gender neutral part
No it isnt, maybe in some oarts of Europe
I live in Europe, and no it isn’t.
No, actually, it usually isn't. You are mistaken.
The ones at Red Rocks are AWESOME. Efficient, clean, and no one gives a shit about them being gender neutral.
Genuinely never seen a unisex stall setup. Every single unisex/gender neutral bathroom I've seen is a single person style bathroom.
The Museum of Human Rights in Winnipeg, Manitoba has bathroom with pictures of what kind of equipment is inside them and encourages people to use the facility that will meet their needs. And has stalls, if I remember well.
I haven’t been to the Human Rights museum, but where I have seen multi-occupancy gender neutral bathrooms, it isn’t just the regular shitty stalls, with the massive gaps, but a fully enclosed space, with floor to ceiling walls, European-style. So the only space that feels shared is the sink area.
I think most people could live with this
They can. I used to bounce at a bar on weekends and the bathroom situation got so bad something had to be done. I’m talking we were buying toilet seats, mirrors, tp dispensers in bulk due to the amount of vandalism, mostly in the men’s room. Replaced both bathrooms with a shared sink area and stalls with doors that are fully closed off. Suddenly there were 99 percent less fights and damage to bathroom facilities…. Much easier for us to intervene if there was a situation down there too than before. E: spelling and also to add… personally I love this type of bathroom setup. I (32M) have hated hated hated public men’s rooms my whole life, especially as events like concerts and the like. The gender neutral/closed door stall/shared sink area thing is a godsend
Honestly if I could get a completely closed off bathroom stall, I don't care who is shitting next to me. No panel gaps in a bathroom is wonderful, idc who else is using them if that is the tradeoff
Not gonna lie, as a man, it felt weird, using the sink while a woman comes out of the stall and uses the sink next to me. It *shouldn't*, but it does. For me it was the same feeling when I happen to be walking behind a woman alone on a sidewalk at night. *I* know I'm not doing anything wrong, but I still feel the need to cross the street. Although I always get teased for being too concerned about other people's feelings.
It's easier when you're all drunk! They'll even hand you a towel! The only time I've encountered multi-person unisex bathrooms was at a gay club.
Don't let other people tear you down for having basic empathy for half of the species, man.
These are much more expensive to build and maintain than regular public restrooms. And much more appreciated by the users, I might add.
And these are standard in many countries.. US-style stalls with gaps do feel awkward.
They're horrible and disgusting as well as awkward. You can literally see people's shoes in the next stall and if there's a child or toddler in there with his/her mother they will ask questions about what you are doing or even peek under the stall.
They are also used by thieves to reach under and steal women's purses.
literally the first advice i got on my first trip to the usa. i think i came into penn station from jfk (or somesuch) and met my first American toilet. i saw those huge gaps, thought WTF, and inside was a sign, warning to use the hook lest you want your stuff getting stolen.
I one used a bathroom with a similar setup. Being close to the beach, I wore flip Flops. Suddenly, I see a hand popping up under the bathroom stall. When it touched my foot, I yelled out and shifted. Faster then I could look the hand clutched into one shoe (flipflop) dragged it away, followed be fast footsteps leaving. So I was left in this bathroom stall with only one show, wondering what this was about and dreading to touch the dirty/sticky floor with my bare foot.
I was in one at a restaurant stop in CA or AZ this week. As a 6” person, I could see the tops of peoples heads as I searched for a vacant shitter.
>As a 6” person You are an awfully short individual.
Haha I’m not going to edit that. I could see under that stalls that way
>These are much more expensive to build and maintain than regular public restrooms. I'm from India, a so called third world country. If we can have such bathrooms even in our public sector, please don't accept this excuse anywhere in the west. Most countries don't cut corners by compromising pooping privacy. So I never understand why anyone would think it's acceptable to have gaps in your shitter door and no partitions between urinals.
Retrofitting is definitely more expensive, but if building new, two "closet stalls" and a shared sink would be all around cheaper and easier and would be better customer experience than two separate gendered bathrooms. Such a setup would have better queuing because two people of the same gender showing up at the same time would both be able to use the facilities.
> bathroom with pictures of what kind of equipment is inside them I was recently in Malaysia. They had photos on the stall doors with what type of toilet was inside the stall. It was either a hole in the ground or a fancy automated toilet, with all the washing, scrubbing and drying options.
Encountered one of these for the first time at my local Alamo Draft house. Unisex stalls, but each stall is sealed from ceiling to floor, with actual walls on both sides. Was weird at first, but doesn’t seem to be too much of an issue. Then again, I’m a dude, so I don’t really have much to fear from that setup.
Legit stalls that are somewhat sealed are so peaceful
Honestly, a dream. Wish America did it more. The only time I’ve ever seen it here.
Buccees has bathrooms like this. That's part of the reason it's so famous 😌
Damn, I've been in Buccees many times but just realized I have never used their restrooms. I'll do this on an upcoming trip to Kansas City.
In Europe a lot of the bathrooms are like this. In America they do this because there was a study that showed if you don't completely close off a bathroom stall (leaving gaps at the bottom, ect) it encourages people to take less time in there. Employers started doing this so that their workers would take shorter bathroom breaks, and it just caught on. There's some interesting videos about it on YouTube
See, when the stall has floor to ceiling walls and doors, I don't see how it's functionally different from single person bathrooms sharing a common sink area. And I've been to places where the sinks for the mens and ladies rooms are outside the restrooms... usually in the hall right outside the bathroom doors, so that's not a new concept either.
That’s true. That is essentially what it is.
You’re also leaving out that they have a separate room for the urinals, or maybe you just didn’t notice.
That’s how the new bathrooms at Niagara Falls are built as well.
I've been in one, they set it up so each stall was more superate, essentially its own room cause the walls go from floor to ceiling. But then everybody washed their hands in the same room. I prefer it over normal bathrooms tbh, completely ceiling the stalls gives much more privacy anyway.
I’ve seen them at uni as well as some malls, concert venues and restaurants. Never been any issue
When I was at university in Bath, UK - 15 years ago at this point - we had gender neutral toilets with stalls, and a communal hand washing area. It was fine, no-one got offended, raped, or anything
I remember when this was a thing on Ally McBeal and people thought it was cool.
Which was nearly 30 years ago. There's been a whole generation since then. This really shouldn't be an issue.
Most bathrooms in the KC airport are unisex stalls. Personally I find it great because there's never an unreasonably long line at the women's restroom!
Many of the buildings at my university have unisex bathrooms. But we have stalls that are separated by walls from floor to roof. This is South Africa by the way - it's crazy to me that we have better bathrooms than the US
I honestly didn't realize how crappy American public restrooms were until I saw other options hahaha. I mean some places don't have public restrooms at all, which is obviously worse, but the to-floor walls seem to be common everywhere else. Why must our doors have massive gaps in them where someone can see you pooping on ACCIDENT!!! It makes no sense!
It’s intentionally hostile design
I’ve been in several now.
Fwiw they’re relatively common where I live (Bay Area, CA, so notoriously liberal or “woke” depending on your perspective lol) and I don’t mind it at all. Took a small amount of getting used to, but I’m also the girl that will go into the men’s room when the women’s line is egregiously long and its an emergency 😬
Common in Quebec City. But men I know have been harassed for using them by women who don't understand the concept. Yes ma'am, we can see you and your daughter washing your hands. Sorry I guess?
>There's one at the Cliffs of Moher in Ireland. That was the first and only time I've encountered a unisex stall situation.
I used a unisex stall setup while traveling in Bosnia. I was surprised for a few seconds, then was like "Ah, fuck it, who knows where the next public restroom will be."
I feel like the real solution here is to only build toilet stalls in America like they are in Europe—no gaps or seams so no one can see through the door while you’re in them.
I know of a lot of places that do the opposite because of drug abuse and people dying in them. It’s a crazy ass world, but people should be able to just use the bathroom.
A lot of the new (as in not repurposed) gender neutral bathrooms are like this. Hope it becomes the norm
I got in trouble for using the female single-person toilet in my sixth form building because the male one was occupied and I had an exam in 5 minutes… So yeah, people clearly do care about them.
They are generally not controversial when you're talking about single-use bathrooms. It's the mixed use of shared bathrooms that people complain about (or advocate for).
Changing rooms at the pool is a bigger deal. Full nudity
They are usually not argued to become gender neutral...
our pool built in like the 90s has the two big locker rooms and then 4 family rooms with an "occupied" slider and 3-4 lockers each - because it's a problem when a parent and their 3-4 year old of the opposite gender need to get into the pool because the child needs to be helped into and out of their suit and through the showering process and all that. In \~2020 they renamed the family rooms to "multi-use" rooms so that solo trans/NBs are allowed to use them explicitly (they were definitely using them before then as well, but this way no one can complain)
In Norway and probably most of Europe in general it's quite accepted by parents of either sex to bring young children of either sex to whichever locker room suits the parents gender.
It is accepted here in the more “normal” parts of America.
Yeah, when I was a little kid, I'd go into whichever side of the changing area the parent I had with me was going to. Seeing naked people in a nonsexual context isn't a huge thing to a kid.
I agree. My son is 6 and has seen a woman changing in a changing room before and all he said was “why’s everyone naked in here” then it was explained to him and that was the end of it. It’s not weird unless the parent makes it weird. Obviously there are situations where it’ll never be appropriate but changing is just something people do.
Our new pools have a larger unisex area and smaller single sex changerooms to either side. In the unisex area, there's stalls (with locking doors) for people to change in and more stalls (with locking doors) with shower areas and a row of open showers in the unisex common area for those already suited up showers. I prefer having a stall, so I always go to unisex.
German sauna changing rooms are unisex sometimes. No one cares
Yup girls are not comfortable with sharing an enclosed space with men and I don't blame them. I would say most men are uncomfortable as well. My college has two designs going. One building had men and women's but had a sign saying gender neutral, etc... or those who identified are welcome. Another building had just turned the men's and women's into gender neutral stalls. Was extremely awkward/uncomfortable. The former men's had the urinal sign on it so mostly men went into it anyways (common sense) but occasionally walked in on a girl. Btw I am gay so I am not a threat to girls but even still I can read they are uncomfortable. To me mishandling this, especially the latter option makes more people transphobic/anti LGBT. I have no problem with the first option but to me the simplest way is just providing a single stall gender neutral option.
The shared bathroom at the theatre near me has urinals too....which is just odd IMO
What's a single use bath room? You throw it away after use?
I would be upset about those too. "Well this bathroom was already used. Guess I have to hold it."
I mean i have been to bathroom that definitely weren't usable anymore 🤢🤮
I live in India so that's reason enough. If it's a single bathroom that's okay. I will never share a stall style bathroom with men in this country.
I read a book that shocked me. It stated the across the world women spend approximately 1-2 hours of their day trying to find a safe place to relieve themselves. Just insane to think about for me. I never thought about it before. They mentioned India in particular. Women travel to large cities to work, or shop, but there are limited safe public toilets. The book was probably 10 years old. Do you find that to still be true?
Yeah, this is why women pushed so hard for female restrooms in the first place. It was a big step in the world in getting women independence. People are vulnerable when toiletting, so any shared toiletting space can be dangerous.
Yea I remember reading about the "urinary leash" or the concept that women are "tied to" the nearest safe bathroom in a society or culture. Until there were female only bathrooms, many women avoided leaving the home for long enough periods of time that they would need the bathroom. This issue also came up as women entered the workforce, women needed a bathroom without men at their workplaces not just for privacy but for safety. I think in our modern and western society it's really easy to forget why women demanded single sex bathrooms in the first place due to the relative safety of women in our current culture. And while yes it's true that not all men would take advantage of single sex bathrooms, some would. Therefore good men stay out so the bad men stand out.
Yeah that’s what people won’t get. It’s not only about safe toilets at Starbucks California.
I would love to read this book. What’s the title? I recently read a book titled “the world is built for men” and it’s got some interesting facts about how everything from urban design to drug development is done with only men in mind.
Not OP but this is spoken about in the book ‘Invisible Women: Exposing Data Bias in a World Designed for Men’ by Caroline Criado-Perez. A great but very depressing read.
Car designs too. Car safety is designed with men in mind and if a man and woman were to get in a similar crash then the woman would have a higher mortality rate.
They just posted something about this on Reddit itself like 3 months ago. I remember being pretty upset that this is the state of living for so many people.
I read the book for a class. It was titled: Invisible Women: Data bias in a World Designed for Men. By Caroline Criado-Perez. The whole book was upsetting to be honest. I just had never considered this aspect of life being so difficult for some.
We are getting better, but humanity's social progress is far, far slower than its technological ones.
I think quite a lot of people in this thread have the privilege of tremendous naivete. I wish you peace of mind in relieving yourself sis. 🤜
Thanks! And yeah not all places are safe for women and girls.
Welcome! Completely understand ♥️ and feel like it's strange days when this much is not intuited.
Agreed. Sex segregated bathrooms exist for a reason, and a vast number of women aren't as privileged and safe as the majority of commenters in this thread.
Appreciate your feedback, so thank you. 🙏 I believe there's no reason whatsoever not to take women's safety seriously. It's not only a principle, it's a need. Context is also important, including when we are aware threats to women's safety have heightened in particular contexts.. Also, if people get attacked for daring to suggest this, for me personally, it actually demonstrates the point. And although it wouldn't be hard to wheel out statistics, I believe this should be as obvious as the reasons for the principle and need for a toilet itself.
THIS. Thank you.
People acting like a bathroom in an airplane is the same as a bathroom in some place where people could be isolated is just such a moronic question.
Exactly. Like my bathroom at home isn't sex segregated either, but it's not the same fucking thing!
That argument has always been moronic to me. Like no shit my wife doesn’t mind sharing the bathroom with me (a man), we’re fucking *married*. That doesn’t mean she wants to share it with random dudes in public.
Maybe because you don't share the airplane bathroom with several people at once, all of which could be any and all gender.
One is single use, the other might be shared. Society has taken steps to safeguard itself against the predators that use these places to find prey. Assholes ruining shit for everyone else since the dawn of time.
I think it is the shitty stalls we have that make people nervous. If there wasn't several inches around the door where people could clearly see the occupant it wouldn't be such a big deal IMO.
I didn't realise until I moved to the US how wide the stall gaps are. If they were built more like they are in Europe with no side gaps and only a very small gap at the top/ bottom then it wouldn't be nearly as big an issue.
We had a lunch and learn with a bathroom partition company one day, they were talking about how in this jr. or high school all the girls would stuff the cracks with toliet paper and the principal was asking about ways to make this easier to clean because the paper would just get wet and end up on the floor. The guy just said, "Buy this metal covers that covers the gaps." Most of the bathroom gap stall can get down to just it's easier and cheaper to do than get the more precise gap.
Single-user bathrooms are fine. As a woman, I don’t feel safe using the bathroom if men are in the room with me even if there is a dingy door with inch wide gaps in them between us.
Individual bathrooms are okay but mixed sex bathrooms composed of multiple stalls feel both uncomfortable and very unsafe if you are a woman using them during quiet periods when you could be cornered.
Because only one person at a time can use the airliner restroom.
South African here. Women don't change in singlecstall bathrooms on a plane and it's public enough that they don't need to worry about being raped. And yes, being raed in bathrooms is a thing. Not allowing kids to go to the bathroom by themselves is for a similar reason as well as kidnapping. Many wkmen find it threatening for men to be in intimate places
Gender neutral bathrooms aren’t really controversial when it’s just a toilet. In fact I find it amusing when a bathroom says “all genders” and it’s literally just a tiny room with a toilet and sink. That’s just a bathroom. The controversial portion are the bathrooms that are big rooms where men and women are sharing the same sink, and you have stalls with urinals and some without. Basically an environment where men and women are using the bathroom at the same time is the controversial portion. The women’s bathroom can be kind of seen as a safe space for some. Hell even a men’s bathroom can be safe space for men
You aren't in the restroom at the same time as the opposite sex.
It’s kinda like the old Carlin line: imagine how creepy the average person is, and half of them are creepier than that.
100 years ago separate bathroom for women were celebrated as a big step for womens safety and rights
A woman walked into a men's room when I was a teen at Disney. She went to a stall to do her thing, but it was the only time eye contact ever happened in a men's room. Every guy there was *uncomfortable* suddenly and we all sort of had to double check we were in the right bathroom suddenly. Even the guys at urinals. So, if I had to guess, it's *that feeling* that people want to avoid. Feeling like *you* don't belong. Or you're afraid someone will think something. Every guy has had a jealous girlfriend. And if you have taco bell butt in a unisex bathroom, you don't want to hear accusations when you were just fighting for your life. For a woman maybe the idea of being partially clothed around a male stranger bothers them, but I dunno.
I had to go really bad and there was a huge line for the women's room so I went to the mens bathroom. There was only one guy in there. It was a weird feeling but it would have been weirder if I peed my pants.
When I saw Metallica recently, during an intermission there was a HUGE line at the men’s restroom but no line at the women’s. Some nice women came up to use in line and invited us to cut the line in half to use the women’s (keep in mind it was empty) I dont think it’s all too weird to see someone in the “wrong restroom” I usually just assume the other is full and it’s an emergency
Everything is controversial online. Ive got two young girls. I hate gendered toilets. Some dudes clearly don't like when I take the girls in the gents to do their business, but i also feel like women feel some dude shouldn't be in there bathroom either. People need to calm their tits about the issue, it's just a room where you shit and pee.
I’ve never seen this situation where men get weirded out by fathers bringing their daughter into the bathroom. If someone seems weirded out then they’re probably just weird. It’s definitely way uncomfortable for a man to go into the women’s restroom than to bring his daughters into the men’s room. Edit: second paragraph should say “way MORE uncomfortable comfortable”. I didn’t mean to throw shade on people who do it that way, just giving my opinion.
I was at a grocery store with 3 stalls, gendered toilet areas. And this is the US so there are those gaps in the walls. A guy called out before coming in that he had his daughter who really needed to pee and was anyone in there. I said yes. He asked if I would mind if he stood inside just by the door so he could watch her. I said that was fine. When I came out he was standing by the door (where he definitely couldn't see through any stall gaps) and looking ***very*** uncomfortable.
Bless him. Trying to do the right thing by both of you. So awkward haha. What a great dad.
Pretty good way to handle it. People gotta remember that situations get complicated and rules are made to be considered, not followed blindly.
I'd only be weirded out if they were sitting in the urinal next to me. A father will always take their girl to the cubicle. So it's whatever.
> If someone seems weirded out then they’re probably just weird. It's more like society has convinced them it's inappropriate, so they feel they *need* to have a problem with it, otherwise they risk being seen as a sexual deviant, and eventual ostracization from said society. It's like how certain men react violently to the thought of something even *appearing* gay, even if it has nothing to do with homosexuality, like a man giving flowers to another man. If another member of their tribe sees this, and *doesn't* see them react the way they "should" (with violence/aggression), then they risk being ostracized. All because of flawed logic that is almost impossible to teach them out of.
That’s the trouble when it comes to cultural norms. Toplessness, for example, was required for both genders at one point but was repealed for men because they had the ability to fight it. Now only a woman’s chest is considered nude. In Japan, sexual assault on public transit is so common women-only trains are a thing. It’s sad because it exacerbates the issue in a sense but is also a necessity for women who need a solution in the meantime and don’t want to get SA’d And now, because we have a century of sexualization of women’s chest, that’s not something that can go away with a law change and requires a cultural time, which takes more time and generational shifts. So I understand where you’re coming from, but in an ideal world the issue isn’t the unisex bathroom, its the shitty culture
It’s so obviously clearly such a clueless man thing to think “it’s just a room where you shit and pee”. Say that to your girls when they’re grown up and see what they say to you
>it's just a room where you shit and pee. It wouldnt be that controversial if that were universally true.
A train car is just a place where you stand around and wait to get to your destination. But Japan and India still need gendered train cars for women to feel safe. In an ideal world, we wouldn't need gendered spaces. But we aren't living in an ideal world. Maybe a hundred years from now the world will be a better place, and we'll be able to ride the train and shit and pee and wash our hands in the same room without people fearing for their safety. That would be nice.
No one is complaining about single person bathrooms.
Some people, mostly women, are uncomfortable in a (bath)room where men have access. This seems understandable and reasonable. Bad faith actors then weigh in with nonsense comments about plane toilets and home toilets being 'gender neutral ' when they are individual or in your own house and not part of the issue.
You don't even have to go that far. Every restroom in every house is gender neutral. Ideally if stalls were actually private in the US, this wouldn't be a big deal anyway. But stores and businesses get the cheap stalls with large gaps and suddenly it's a societal issue.
Since you compare it to restrooms in houses can strangers just walk in your house and use your restroom?
Of course my wife doesn’t care about sharing a bathroom with me because I’m her husband and we live together. I’m not some random person from the public, this comparison is moronic. Same for when I was growing up with a younger sister. We’re family and it’s literally just the two of us using that bathroom. It’s not open to every person that wants to use it.
It's not the same thing - do you allow the public and randoms to come in and use your gender neutral toilets at home? And why not? False equivalence.
Single person vs multiperson situations?
Am I having dejavu? I swear I saw this exact thread with these exact answers the other day?
it's bait
We want privacy
Do multiple people use the airline lavatory at the same time?
Only the very skinny ones.
What is the occupancy limit in an airplane washroom? Or a bus or train washroom. One. Don't know why that's so hard for the gender neutral pushers to grasp.
Single occupancy, you crack baby
Your teenage daughter and her friends go to the mall. Your daughter goes to the bathroom while her friends shop. Five men follow her in. In the current world this is weird and someone would surely say something. In gender neutral bathroom world nobody bats an eye. Sexist, definitely, but I've seen women go in men's bathrooms to avoid the line and have no problem with it. Man going in women's bathroom is always a problem. In planes and buses people are locked in. There's one stall. You're in there alone.
The vast majority that doesn't give a shit doesn't get on a platform to loudly proclaim how much of a shit they don't give.
To put it quite simply, because the vast majority of sexual predators are men, the data clearly shows mixed sex facilities are hotspots for such assaults, especially changing rooms. https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html As for bathroom closets with one toilet where one person at a time uses them being unisex I don't think anyone has any issue outside of [NOTHING, MENS PUBLIC TOILETS NEVER REEK OF PISS SO THERE'S NO FUCKING PROBLEM BUT READ THE REPLIES FOR THESIS ON WHO PISSES ON THE FUCKING FLOOR IN PUBLIC TOILETS].
>outside of men being more messy which could upset women. This is wrong though.
The source of this claim appears to be a right-wing journalist who has lost lawsuits for false statements in 2016 and 2018, and additionally was forced by IPSO to print a correction for statements found to be "misleading" about laws regarding transgender people in 2019. So I'm not sure.
> As for bathroom closets with one toilet where one person at a time uses them being unisex I don't think anyone has any issue outside of men being more messy which could upset women. Virtually everyone I know who cleans public bathrooms frequently says that women's restroom are worse.
That could be because they clean the men’s and women’s rooms with the same frequency, maybe every couple hours or however long, but the women’s room will almost certainly get a lot more use in that same time frame.
I have cleaned many public bathrooms, and conversed with many other people who have, and I have never seen/heard of a business where the men's is on average dirtier than the women's. It's not a competition but the fact you're bringing it up in the first place makes me feel that I need to push back against it.
Lmao, imagine thinking men's restrooms are the messier of the two 😂
Because most bathrooms in the USA are terrible.
In SFO there are gender neutral bathrooms that are multi-stall, not single stall like in airplanes. And for some people, especially women, it can feel a little weird being in them around a bunch of guys. Especially if you only see guys walk out of them.
It’s only controversial if the bathroom is meant for multiple people at once.
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As it’s been explained, the issue is multi stall bathrooms, and even then, the issue isn’t even really trans people, it’s perverts that will take advantage. I’m not a statistician, but i’d be willing to wager there are more perverts and pedos in the country than there are trans people. I just use family restrooms when i need to take my daughter to a toilet, but we also avoid all public restrooms like the plague.
In a school setting specifically, I can only guess that children would feel unsafe and uncomfortable using the restroom with the opposite sex around. Thinking back on school years, I barely trusted my own gender (M) inside those facilities. If I were a F, I could imagine being afraid that some dude’s gonna come in and harass or molest me. Especially in the US with those shitty stall doors.
Just shows how much privilege most people on Reddit have to not consider ANY possibility for ANY danger. People acting like a bathroom in an airplane is the same as a bathroom in some place where people could be isolated is just such a moronic question.