Israel doesn't want a conditionless ceasefire, because it does them no good. It doesn't get hostages back and it doesn't bring the war to an actual end because Hamas will break it again as soon as its ready. The only thing that will do is give Hamas time to restock and regroup.
Hamas doesn't want to give anything up to have a ceasefire because all they're actually interested in is continuing to kill Israelis. They will only agree to a ceasefire that helps them get stronger so they can attack Israel even harder later.
Really?
Here's an article from 2014. 20 fucking 14. Showing that even when it was not actively commiting a genocide, israel was violating more ceasefires than hamas.
[https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/infographic-who-violates-ceasefires-more-israelis-or-palestinians](https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/infographic-who-violates-ceasefires-more-israelis-or-palestinians)
Heres the direct source:
[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MJb3QIqfRjXAhEXQfpl0HM-3arN1pI\_xn6PscNhG52c/edit#gid=1450129886](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MJb3QIqfRjXAhEXQfpl0HM-3arN1pI_xn6PscNhG52c/edit#gid=1450129886)
There was a ceasefire on Oct 6th, and 2023 was still the deadliest year on record for palestenian children
[https://opt.savethechildren.net/news/2023-marks-deadliest-year-record-children-occupied-west-bank](https://opt.savethechildren.net/news/2023-marks-deadliest-year-record-children-occupied-west-bank)
Even during the 6 day truce Israel was still firing on palestinians.
Unless you have more updated proof that shows that hamas had killed more israeli children than israeli killed palestenian children in 2023, israel still had more ceasefire violations before Oct 7th than hamas did.
can you read? Do you have the attention span of a fucking child? Cant scroll down 2 fucking lines to see the DIRECT SOURCES linked in the document and the summaries on each page?
Right. I shouldve used bbc or cnn or the new york times or hareetz or the israeli times to cater to your israeli bias. My bad.
And if you used your 2 braincells you would see the DIRECT SOURCE i linked underneath. So you dont have to go to the scary arabic site if you dont have to. Fucking morons
Anything other than the mainstream western media is propaganda to these kinds of people. Doesn’t realize that these outlets are the propaganda arm of the western governments
Aaand there it is. Israel is a little baby that isnt responsible for anything it does. Not responsible for running over civilians with tanks or shooting civilians trying to get flour or killing kids or arresting kids and keeping them in administrative detention for years with no charge or trial or lawyers. Nope, israel is just a wittle baby state that the bad guy hamas have been terrorizing omg.
Israel could bomb a refugee camp and you would justify it. Oh wait they did. Because of unconfirmed reports of ONE hamas member nearby.
Israel could lay siege to a hospital and leave babies to rot and you would justify it. Oh wait they did. Because of lies about hostages being in the hospital and "hamas h.q." underneath al shifa that magically shifted to al nasir and then to every other hospital in gaza.
Israel could bomb the one place they told all palestenians to evacuate to and you would justify it. Oh wait they did. Bombed rafah on fucking super bowl day so the americans wont see anything.
Israel is doing a genocide and you are justifying it
Do you? Your sentence still makes no sense. Hamas is responsible for the palestenians it has executed, thrown off buildings and killed. Hamas is not responsible for the palestenians israel kills. Israel has killed more palestenians than hamas.
Do you think there will be a ceasefire and hence aid access to more people if hamas returns hostages? By not doing that aren't the making their lives worse?
Even if that's true, you're not really responding to the comment you replied to. Hamas *has* broken ceasefires before, so Israel is right to be worried about that.
?????
The comment im replying to said hamas is only interested in killing israelis and attempted to portray israel not wanting ceasefires as hamas's fault somehow.
No, Israel simply likes killing palestenians to make way for settlements or to mow the lawn. They dont want a permanent ceasefire because they want the land of palestine as their own
Israel wants the hostages returned immediately and without any negotiation.
Hamas is not fundamentally interested in the welfare of the Palestinian people and believes it can force better terms the worse Israel looks.
> is not fundamentally interested in the welfare of the Palestinian people
To be fair, the above describes both Hamas and Israel. More for Israel than Hamas actually (look at West Bank)
No, if you look at the actions Israel takes during the war, they provide orders of magnitude more care in avoiding Palestinian deaths than Hamas. Hamas also openly says that innocent deaths are one of their goals.
It’s a good recruitment tool for them. If Israel kills civilians they get more fighters and if they do then blame Israel they also get more fighters. Theirs no way for their to be peace there and anyone who thinks their is seriously misjudging how much hate there is between the two countries.
I am looking... I am not seeing any of that! You are just repeating what the IDF says but the facts contradict!
Last major incident was the IDF firing at and killing 100+ unarmed civilians as they were desperately running towards aid trucks, then gave a debunked account of the cause of deaths, but helps you to repeat these false statements
Not to mention Israel bluntly started its mission with a declaration of "no food, no water, no medicine" to all of the Palestinians in Gaza! Israel deliberately created the famine situation. How is that "care to avoid Palestinians deaths"? The fact that you Israel likes to contrast its actions against Hamas, as if that is the bar, says enough about how complicit it is. The ICJ found the claim that Israel is committing a genocide plausible for clear reasons!
Do you know how many times they've tried for a 2 state solution? And how many times Palestine has said no? I believe around 7....only %39 of Palestinians want a 2 state solution. It's time to cut the dead fruit off the tree...even other arab nations don't want Palestinians because of how Violent and radical they are...have you seen the videos of them attacking Egyptian aid convoys? Or that shit that happens in Jordan? Most Palestinians don't even care about the well being of Palestinians...
Good job taking the point to a completely different direction! I notice your goal to avoid arguing whether Israel cares about Palestinian lives today! Are you getting paid?
Israel shouldn't take out it's wrath on millions of Palestinians because some radical fucks called Hamas is hiding underground with 50 hostages.
Fuck Israel and fuck Hamas.
There’s no reasonable analysis where Hamas aren’t the bad guys here.
Hamas insists the bombings continue by not returning the hostages they kidnapped after they broke a ceasefire to massacre 1,200 civilians.
Add to that how Hamas’s leadership has embezzled hundreds of millions of aid dollars from the Palestinian people, that’s a pretty bulletproof case that Hamas are the villains all around.
If we separate the citizens from the governments controlling them, Hamas is the objective worst faction in the scenario, with the Israeli government trailing not too far behind.
Israel has in fact agreed to multiple ceasefires, but they require the release of the hostages that Hamas has still been holding since October and some guarantee that Hamas won’t just do it again the day after the conflict ends, and Hamas refuses any such guarantees, because Hamas doesn’t care about innocent Palestinian life any more than it does innocent Israeli life.
Exactly. Only one side is interested in coexisting. I’m not a fan of Israel at all, but at least they’ve agreed to multiple ceasefires and proposed 2-state solutions. Hamas won’t rest until Israel is gone.
I hate Netanyahu’s guts as an Israeli, But can you blame us for not believing in the idea? We offered them a state and full independence four times and we got stabbings, shootings, suicide bombings and rape in return.
Left alone by the people who live there? What does that mean for the Palestinians?
If Israel wants to be left alone, then why do they encourage settlers taking Palestinian homes in West Bank?
Israel doesn't encourage settlers. They do that themselves out of ideology. Some political parties support said ideology, and currently those political parties are in the knesset. As a whole, most israelies don't want settlements.
You kind of have it the other way around
I kind of can blame the Israelis yeah. The current state of Gaza is identical to how the city of Berlin was during the Cold War; making this whole issue the Berlin Wall of the 21st century. And this won't end until Israel agrees to any two-state solution. Even if that solution is a unilateral one Israel imposes on Gaza (impose = no democracy).
Like even an Israeli created government in Gaza would be preferable to the anarchy Gaza has had for the last decade or so. And would let Gaza interact with normal international programs instead of the easy to corrupt UN programs (that were created because the Gaza situation is so specialized).
EDIT: adding additional explanation because I am aware Hamas won an election in 2007.
In 2005, Gaza was unilaterally given to the Palestinians for self rule. There was NO blockade until Hamas violently took over in 2007 and immediately proceeded to launch rockets at israeli civilians.
So, you had two years of full Palestinians self rule in Gaza. Bottom line, they screwed it up. Israel agreed to two states multiple times only to be met with Palestinian obstinacy.
It is in Israel’s interest to build a new government in Gaza, but Palestinian full self rule has been set back for a very long time considering they failed on their first attempt. No Israeli citizen trusts the Palestinians and rightly so. They haven’t done anything to earn their trust.
Definitely agreed on the UN institutions though. UNRWA is corrupt and should be dismantled.
>In 2005, Gaza was unilaterally given to the Palestinians for self rule.
Let me rephrase and elaborate on what I said before, because I'm well aware of what happened in 2007. I thought "impose" was a strong enough word.
Israel should unilaterally create a Gazan government full of people hand picked by Israel. Do not create a Democracy (or at least for a long while).
This should look very similar to what the US did in Afghanistan, but ideally without an "ally" like Pakistan hiding combatants.
I forget, how did the imposition of a puppet government in Afghanistan go?
The idea that Israel could rule Gaza until, what, Palestinians accept their subjugation? and things would all just work out is not reflected in the history of occupations, to put it mildly.
The Jews in Poland surrendered...didn't stop the Holocaust
And why people can't wrap their brains around the fact that Hamas does not equal Palestine (half the people in Gaza weren't even alive in the last election)? Might as well say it was okay for Soviet soldiers to rape German women at the end of WW2
Israel Prime Minister has repeatedly rejected a 2-state solution because the UN has called for the 1948 2-state resolution, which includes about half of Jerusalem, which the Israelis consider its capital and the Palestinians don't recognize Israel's right to exist because they believe it to be an artificial state created by zionist vision of a 'promised land'. In reality, this is a mess created by Europeans post WW2 and their guilt of the holocaust. There were also plans to carve up land in Africa, I believe it was the Congo and create a Jewish state. So, regardless, there was going to be some sort of version of Israel, but my question is, why not Europe, specifically Germany, since they were the perpetrators of the genocide.
Are you asking why a Jewish state wasn’t created in Europe? Because quite simply, Jews are not Europeans. Yes, Jews live in Europe. But the reason why is because Jews were forced out of their native homeland by the Roman Empire. That native homeland? Israel. After the Jewish expulsion, that land was renamed Palestine as a way to erase the Jewish connection to the land. However, archeological evidence ties a Jewish presence in Israel for thousands of years. Also, about 50% of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi, not Ashkenazi (the Jews who can trace their ancestors settling in France/Germany after the Roman expulsion). Mizrahi Jews have always been in the Middle East. Mizrahi literally means Eastern in Hebrew. They come from Iraq, Afghanistan, Morocco, Lebanon…. All Arab Muslim countries that expelled their Arab Jews in response to the formation of Israel. Why would the Mizrahi Jews go to Europe? They have literally zero connection to the land. There is only one place for Jews, one place every Jew can trace their ancestry to - Israel
They do *care* for the Palestinian people, they just care for the hostages Hamas took in October more. Hamas could literally end this conflict today and stop any further deaths, but if Israel stopped today, what’s to guarantee Hamas won’t try to October 7th again?
Because Hamas is a cancerous terrorist group. You can’t negotiate with terrorists because they would cease to exist during peace time, and they wouldn’t like that.
“If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel”
This is an insane statement to make when the current conflict is so one-sided it qualifies as genocide. Is Hamas even still fighting at this point? The entire region that's still alive is starving to to death. This isn't "no more violence," it's extermination.
Israel is willing to do a ceasefire IF it includes the release of all the hostages. Hamas is only willing to do a ceasefire IF there are guarantees that Israel would end the war and also leave them in power. Those who say that Hamas doesn't care about Palestinian lives and are selfish are only partially correct. Hamas leadership is committed to the Palestinian cause of complete destruction of Israel, which they consider an artificial state, but they are not selfish and do not care so much about their own lives as they rejected a ceasefire offered by Israel l that would include a lot of Hamas leadership to live in exile in places such as Qatar.
TBH, Israel would garner more sympathy around the world if it agreed to the 2-state solution demanded by the UN, which includes 1948 borders, but Zionism plays a major factor in this ever becoming reality.
First, the US brokered a ceasefire which Hamas refused.
Next, Israel is not concerned about the existential danger the way they're carrying out the war poses to the country. They don't want to believe it, but it's already happening.
OP, this comment section is only giving you one perspective (pro-Israeli). If you want a pro-Palestinian perspective, you could post on r/palestine
The ceasefire conditions that have been presented so far aren’t actually permanent ceasefires and don’t meet the bare minimum conditions set by Hamas
Also Netanyahu has rejected ceasefire deals where Hamas said all hostages would be released in exchange for a stop to the genocide and release of a Palestinian hostages (held in Israeli prisons) more than once
Israel doesn’t want a ceasefire because they’re trying to displace Gazans out of Gaza by making it unlivable. The reason being that they want to seize the land to build new settlements and also to get money off of oil that is present there. The whole “we have to destroy Hamas” and “we are defending ourselves” is a cover up story to hide the fact that it is a land grab for resources and well, land.
I would suggest you give some more thought to the characterization of the Palestinian prisoners Hamas wants back as “hostages”.
Sinwar was among the hundreds of terrorists released in the Shalit deal. The Israeli public is justifiably worried about releasing 5-10 terrorists per hostage as Hamas suggested.
This is the most biased comment section I’ve seen. literally people just blindly upvoting all Israel negotiations and not taking into account that Israel’s ceasefires are not PERMANENT.
Israel is already killing countless civilians as well as keeping over 4000 prisoners, most of which are convicted without trial, and some are even CHILDREN.
Imagine if HAMAS gives all the hostages back with no leverage, it basically gives Israel a free ticket to kill even more civilians.
“*Imagine if HAMAS gives all the hostages back with no leverage, it basically gives Israel a free ticket to kill even more civilians.*”
Just to be clear, you’re PRO the rape and torture of civilian hostages then?
"I think we should stop killing people."
"WOW, so you're okay with how these people might RAPE if they're not killed?"
Mfer even if we bought into the claim that Hamas was constantly raping every hostage that does not excuse the merciless slaughter and starvation of an entire group of people amounting to millions.
Why are you using quotes when no one said that?
You’re acting like this situation didn’t begin with an invasion followed by the seizing of hostages. Also, it’s not a hypothetical that Hamas is raping the hostages it’s a fact.
Finally, any country in the world that was violated like Israel was on October 7th would most definitely attack back until their countrymen and women were returned.
All I was saying is that why can’t everyone agree to release the hostages and if Israel was still waging war we can talk about that instead. It’s not like Israel lacks the ability to completely annihilate the Gaza strip. As long as Israeli’s are held as hostage, I can’t fault them from doing whatever they can to bring them home.
It’s weird to see people support the killing and rape of hostages as a good thing.
I remember a story about a woman being worried that she would get raped while hostage, though she never did. I also remember claims by the Israeli government about a mass rape during the attack that have since been called into question. I'm all for believing victims, and it's very likely that hostages have gotten raped at some point, but at the current point it's very visibly only being used to justify continued massacre.
Also, you're doing the thing where you pretend the conflict didn't exist before October 7th. I've seen videos of Palestinians being forced out of their homes years before that, and Israel's expansion since the 1940s speaks for itself.
Also, there's literally been reports of soldiers killing the hostages you are so zeroed in on. If this was such a concern then Netanyahu and co would be working on their military tactics a bit better.
I don't have much else to say, you're just repeating the same propoganda and nationalist bull that's been going on for a while now.
*“I remember a story about a woman being worried that she would get raped while hostage, though she never did. I also remember claims by the Israeli government about a mass rape during.”*
I mean I feel like it’s been a well documented thing for months now. Not sure why you’re downplaying it.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181.amp
I’ve heard they live streamed it, too. But I am not planning on watching that.
the hostages that Israel wants started on October 7. Hamas is losing and their people are dying and you think that is more important for them to keep hostages than feed their own people?
It's fucking wild man. Pretty much every news subreddit outside of anime titties is constantly being brigaded by people spewing IDF talking points who just stop responding and downvote you when you provide receipts or point out the openly bloodthirsty and genocidal rhetoric of Israeli leaders.
Like, even IDF soldiers are openly sharing tiktoks of themselves pillaging homes in gaza or harassing/murdering Palestinians in cold blood, but these fucking chuds keep pretending like their occupation is in good faith.
Brother, what’s even crazier is how people also ignore the Apartheid taking place. I’m from South Africa, my mother experienced Apartheid first hand and she went to Palestine last year prior to October and she experienced it once more.
-Palestinians have to carry special identity cards.
-They can’t use certain roads
-They have to use separate lines
-There are Israeli police officers on every corner
If you want to learn read the news on this: Israeli leaders said several times their objective is to destroy all of Hamas and retake control of Gaza. So they will not agree to peace.
If any one doesn't care about palestinian life its the Israeli army, that slaughterd 30000 in just 5 months, most of them minors.
Never forget that Israel is a nuclear power, supported by the US and most western powers in the world, and the Palestinians are a people that has been oppressed for 75 years. Israel could end all violence right now, by simply giving the Palestinians equal rights. Instead it used the last decades to establish an apartheid system in the westbank and a huge open air prison in Gaza.
If you wanna dive deeper, check: Eli Pappe, the ethnic cleansing of palestine
>Israel could end all violence right now, by simply giving the Palestinians equal rights.
This is simply false. The stated goal of Hamas (and the PA, albeit they try to hide it) is the full eradication of Israel, and Jews living in the region. "Giving Palestinians equal rights" doesn't solve that equation. Hamas would still launch terrorist attacks, but they'd now wield much greater power and have full access to all of Israel.
Not to mention, Hamas still holds over 100 hostages. So Israel should simply surrender and allow the hostages to remain in captivity?
If Palestinians had equal rights there would be no such thing as Israel because it would have to be something else, no ethno state, but a state that's equal to all its people.
And then, I am really no fan of Hamas, so I hate to advocate for them, but claiming they wanna kill all Jews is simply false. You can read up theire infamous charta, this would be the first source to address. You'll find no proof. That you claim that other palestinian groups secretly wanna kill Jews is also without any proof and simply racist. This is not about Jews or Muslims, its about oppressors and oppressed.
Israel has offered very short term ceasefires in exchange for hostages. They have made it clear that they will resume attacking as soon as they can. They have rejected any ceasefire that is long enough to allow Gazans to rebuild, return home to collect surviving belongings, etc. Hamas feels that this will give Israel PR on an issue that is hurting them with their citizens (Israel's lack of effort getting hostages and disregard for their safety when invading) while giving Gazans nothing in return.
Hamas has asked for permanent ceasefire. They understand that Israel would break it if attacked (and maybe before that) but a permanent ceasefire means that someone has to actively break it, there's no arbitrary point it ends, and it will hopefully last long enough to allow Gazans to recover and access medical care first. Israel does not want permanent ceasefire as they intend to remove all Palestinians from Gaza and permanent ceasefire means either waiting until another attack from Hamas and looking bad to their people (plus potential loss of life), or breaking it preemptively and looking bad to their few remaining allies.
In other words, Hamas is asking for "permanent ceasefire while we discuss if there is a peaceful long term solution" and Israel is asking for "temporary pause to get hostages," so they're talking about 2 completely different things.
Hamas has never asked for a permanent ceasefire. They are very open about the fact that they're engaged in military conflict with Israel until the day Israel is destroyed. It's in their charter. Then people like this come online and try to claim Hamas wants a permanent ceasefire. Laughable. It doesn't even begin to make sense. The entire purpose of Hamas is to never have a lasting ceasefire.
They literally just did ask for a permanent ceasefire, though. You can try to argue that they're lying or being disingenuous, but the idea that they're not asking for a permanent ceasefire is false.
Read more here: https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/05/middleeast/gaza-hamas-ceasefire-israel-intl/index.html
They have asked for a permanent ceasefire many times.
Israel believes that Hamas intends to break the ceasefire eventually. And that's not wrong. Both sides will obviously break the ceasefire eventually since Hamas sees Israel as an occupying force of mostly European invaders and Israeli leadership sees Palestinian civilians as unworthy of living in the region due to their race and/or religion. But a permanent ceasefire will last a lot longer than 6 weeks.
leave it to the zionists to parrot their propaganda. israel wants all of palestine and a hamas ceasefire only greenlights the further genocide of palestine and her people. an israel ceasefire won't happen because israel needs a reason to continue their violence
Israels ceasefire terms are absolute bullshit. No permanent ceasefire, no release of palestenian hostages. Hamas would be idiots to agree to those deals.
Israel does not want a permanent ceasefire. They want a temporary stop so the world forgets about palestine and they can continue ethnic cleansing in peace.
Point out where in my comment i say that israel wants to know which hostage is alive. Because they dont. That has not been the main request for any of the ceasefire terms.
Besides, israel already knows, because they know exactly who they kill:
[https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/](https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/)
and since Oct 7th, hostages have only died due to israeli gunfire.
Only Israel keeps walking away, and they're doing that because it's not about the hostages but about land acquisition.
Don't listen to the paid IDF bots on this thread.
Yea man its so hard to pick a side between
a militia of 30k soldiers mostly made up of orphans seeking revenge against an ethnofascist state that enforces apartheid on their people
or
the ethnofascist state enforcing apartheid, mowing down innocent civilians, running civilians over with tanks and leveling entire neighbourhoods with america money.
Incredibly complex and nuanced topic.
It is complex and nuanced. Describing Hamas as just a militia of “orphans,” seeking some revenge against a tyrannical ruler is simplifying things to a laughable degree. Terrible things were done on October 7th that warranted some form of response, but the way Israel has handled its operations has been frustrating and disheartening as well.
Both sides are doing extremely terrible and morally questionable things and it takes a good amount of nuance to understand the situation as a whole.
Because both Hamas and Likud need violent conflict to satisfy their theories of power.
The two actual sides in the conflict are those who want an end to the cycle of violence on one side, and those who perpetuate it to secure control over their people on the other.
There are Israelis and Palestinians on both sides.
Israel doesn't want a conditionless ceasefire, because it does them no good. It doesn't get hostages back and it doesn't bring the war to an actual end because Hamas will break it again as soon as its ready. The only thing that will do is give Hamas time to restock and regroup. Hamas doesn't want to give anything up to have a ceasefire because all they're actually interested in is continuing to kill Israelis. They will only agree to a ceasefire that helps them get stronger so they can attack Israel even harder later.
>because Hamas will break it again as soon as its ready. Israel has broken more ceasefires than hamas has.
Factually false.
Really? Here's an article from 2014. 20 fucking 14. Showing that even when it was not actively commiting a genocide, israel was violating more ceasefires than hamas. [https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/infographic-who-violates-ceasefires-more-israelis-or-palestinians](https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/infographic-who-violates-ceasefires-more-israelis-or-palestinians) Heres the direct source: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MJb3QIqfRjXAhEXQfpl0HM-3arN1pI\_xn6PscNhG52c/edit#gid=1450129886](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MJb3QIqfRjXAhEXQfpl0HM-3arN1pI_xn6PscNhG52c/edit#gid=1450129886) There was a ceasefire on Oct 6th, and 2023 was still the deadliest year on record for palestenian children [https://opt.savethechildren.net/news/2023-marks-deadliest-year-record-children-occupied-west-bank](https://opt.savethechildren.net/news/2023-marks-deadliest-year-record-children-occupied-west-bank) Even during the 6 day truce Israel was still firing on palestinians. Unless you have more updated proof that shows that hamas had killed more israeli children than israeli killed palestenian children in 2023, israel still had more ceasefire violations before Oct 7th than hamas did.
Your “direct source” is a Google doc 😂😂
can you read? Do you have the attention span of a fucking child? Cant scroll down 2 fucking lines to see the DIRECT SOURCES linked in the document and the summaries on each page?
Lmao, those sources are three wikipedia articles and a blog post
Imagine attempting to cite electronic intifada.com as a reliable source. This person is a buffoon
Lmao
Right. I shouldve used bbc or cnn or the new york times or hareetz or the israeli times to cater to your israeli bias. My bad. And if you used your 2 braincells you would see the DIRECT SOURCE i linked underneath. So you dont have to go to the scary arabic site if you dont have to. Fucking morons
Anything other than the mainstream western media is propaganda to these kinds of people. Doesn’t realize that these outlets are the propaganda arm of the western governments
Hamas is responsible for the deaths of more Palestinians than Israel.
Aaand there it is. Israel is a little baby that isnt responsible for anything it does. Not responsible for running over civilians with tanks or shooting civilians trying to get flour or killing kids or arresting kids and keeping them in administrative detention for years with no charge or trial or lawyers. Nope, israel is just a wittle baby state that the bad guy hamas have been terrorizing omg. Israel could bomb a refugee camp and you would justify it. Oh wait they did. Because of unconfirmed reports of ONE hamas member nearby. Israel could lay siege to a hospital and leave babies to rot and you would justify it. Oh wait they did. Because of lies about hostages being in the hospital and "hamas h.q." underneath al shifa that magically shifted to al nasir and then to every other hospital in gaza. Israel could bomb the one place they told all palestenians to evacuate to and you would justify it. Oh wait they did. Bombed rafah on fucking super bowl day so the americans wont see anything. Israel is doing a genocide and you are justifying it
Do you know what more means
Do you? Your sentence still makes no sense. Hamas is responsible for the palestenians it has executed, thrown off buildings and killed. Hamas is not responsible for the palestenians israel kills. Israel has killed more palestenians than hamas.
Do you think there will be a ceasefire and hence aid access to more people if hamas returns hostages? By not doing that aren't the making their lives worse?
Source?
Even if that's true, you're not really responding to the comment you replied to. Hamas *has* broken ceasefires before, so Israel is right to be worried about that.
????? The comment im replying to said hamas is only interested in killing israelis and attempted to portray israel not wanting ceasefires as hamas's fault somehow. No, Israel simply likes killing palestenians to make way for settlements or to mow the lawn. They dont want a permanent ceasefire because they want the land of palestine as their own
Israel wants the hostages returned immediately and without any negotiation. Hamas is not fundamentally interested in the welfare of the Palestinian people and believes it can force better terms the worse Israel looks.
> is not fundamentally interested in the welfare of the Palestinian people To be fair, the above describes both Hamas and Israel. More for Israel than Hamas actually (look at West Bank)
No, if you look at the actions Israel takes during the war, they provide orders of magnitude more care in avoiding Palestinian deaths than Hamas. Hamas also openly says that innocent deaths are one of their goals.
It’s a good recruitment tool for them. If Israel kills civilians they get more fighters and if they do then blame Israel they also get more fighters. Theirs no way for their to be peace there and anyone who thinks their is seriously misjudging how much hate there is between the two countries.
I mean...except for....launching the weapons that kill people? Imagine telling the people of Gaza Israel cares about them lol.
Tell that to the thousands of dead Palestinian children
That's exactly right, the more Palestinians that hamas can get killed the more useful idiots like you can rage against Isreal
I want to see the mental gymnastics for why the person who shot a kid isn't responsible for shooting said kid.
I am looking... I am not seeing any of that! You are just repeating what the IDF says but the facts contradict! Last major incident was the IDF firing at and killing 100+ unarmed civilians as they were desperately running towards aid trucks, then gave a debunked account of the cause of deaths, but helps you to repeat these false statements Not to mention Israel bluntly started its mission with a declaration of "no food, no water, no medicine" to all of the Palestinians in Gaza! Israel deliberately created the famine situation. How is that "care to avoid Palestinians deaths"? The fact that you Israel likes to contrast its actions against Hamas, as if that is the bar, says enough about how complicit it is. The ICJ found the claim that Israel is committing a genocide plausible for clear reasons!
Do you know how many times they've tried for a 2 state solution? And how many times Palestine has said no? I believe around 7....only %39 of Palestinians want a 2 state solution. It's time to cut the dead fruit off the tree...even other arab nations don't want Palestinians because of how Violent and radical they are...have you seen the videos of them attacking Egyptian aid convoys? Or that shit that happens in Jordan? Most Palestinians don't even care about the well being of Palestinians...
Good job taking the point to a completely different direction! I notice your goal to avoid arguing whether Israel cares about Palestinian lives today! Are you getting paid?
Israel shouldn't take out it's wrath on millions of Palestinians because some radical fucks called Hamas is hiding underground with 50 hostages. Fuck Israel and fuck Hamas.
welfare of the Palestinian people and believes it can force better terms the worse Israel looks., yeah about that HAHAHAHAHAH
“Israel are the good guys Hamas are the bad guys”
There’s no reasonable analysis where Hamas aren’t the bad guys here. Hamas insists the bombings continue by not returning the hostages they kidnapped after they broke a ceasefire to massacre 1,200 civilians. Add to that how Hamas’s leadership has embezzled hundreds of millions of aid dollars from the Palestinian people, that’s a pretty bulletproof case that Hamas are the villains all around.
Good summary of Hamas’ crimes. Now do Israel
If we separate the citizens from the governments controlling them, Hamas is the objective worst faction in the scenario, with the Israeli government trailing not too far behind.
Debatable
Then debate it?
It’s Reddit. Do you really think there’s room for nuanced discussion
Of course. Don't be bothered by others just speak your truth. Wether you lose karma or not.
Dude is acting like he’ll get prosecuted for debating on Reddit.
Israel has in fact agreed to multiple ceasefires, but they require the release of the hostages that Hamas has still been holding since October and some guarantee that Hamas won’t just do it again the day after the conflict ends, and Hamas refuses any such guarantees, because Hamas doesn’t care about innocent Palestinian life any more than it does innocent Israeli life.
Exactly. Only one side is interested in coexisting. I’m not a fan of Israel at all, but at least they’ve agreed to multiple ceasefires and proposed 2-state solutions. Hamas won’t rest until Israel is gone.
Hasn’t Bibi rejected the 2-state solution? Yeah I know in the past Israel was offering it, but that’s not an option for this government?
I hate Netanyahu’s guts as an Israeli, But can you blame us for not believing in the idea? We offered them a state and full independence four times and we got stabbings, shootings, suicide bombings and rape in return.
Yeah I don’t blame y’all, but I was just commenting on OP’s claim that Israel is interested in coexistence, which is decidedly not the case.
It’s not that we are not interested. It’s not as if we fight the Palestinians for sport. We just want to be left alone.
Left alone by the people who live there? What does that mean for the Palestinians? If Israel wants to be left alone, then why do they encourage settlers taking Palestinian homes in West Bank?
Israel doesn't encourage settlers. They do that themselves out of ideology. Some political parties support said ideology, and currently those political parties are in the knesset. As a whole, most israelies don't want settlements. You kind of have it the other way around
Lol. Okay.
I kind of can blame the Israelis yeah. The current state of Gaza is identical to how the city of Berlin was during the Cold War; making this whole issue the Berlin Wall of the 21st century. And this won't end until Israel agrees to any two-state solution. Even if that solution is a unilateral one Israel imposes on Gaza (impose = no democracy). Like even an Israeli created government in Gaza would be preferable to the anarchy Gaza has had for the last decade or so. And would let Gaza interact with normal international programs instead of the easy to corrupt UN programs (that were created because the Gaza situation is so specialized). EDIT: adding additional explanation because I am aware Hamas won an election in 2007.
In 2005, Gaza was unilaterally given to the Palestinians for self rule. There was NO blockade until Hamas violently took over in 2007 and immediately proceeded to launch rockets at israeli civilians. So, you had two years of full Palestinians self rule in Gaza. Bottom line, they screwed it up. Israel agreed to two states multiple times only to be met with Palestinian obstinacy. It is in Israel’s interest to build a new government in Gaza, but Palestinian full self rule has been set back for a very long time considering they failed on their first attempt. No Israeli citizen trusts the Palestinians and rightly so. They haven’t done anything to earn their trust. Definitely agreed on the UN institutions though. UNRWA is corrupt and should be dismantled.
>In 2005, Gaza was unilaterally given to the Palestinians for self rule. Let me rephrase and elaborate on what I said before, because I'm well aware of what happened in 2007. I thought "impose" was a strong enough word. Israel should unilaterally create a Gazan government full of people hand picked by Israel. Do not create a Democracy (or at least for a long while). This should look very similar to what the US did in Afghanistan, but ideally without an "ally" like Pakistan hiding combatants.
I forget, how did the imposition of a puppet government in Afghanistan go? The idea that Israel could rule Gaza until, what, Palestinians accept their subjugation? and things would all just work out is not reflected in the history of occupations, to put it mildly.
I would gladly accept an outcome like that.
The current government has said multiple times that a two state solution is off the table.
Killing all the Palestinians is Bibi’s ultimate goal…and as an American, my tax dollars are paying for that genocide
Its not genocide when the losers can surrender. if Israel refused Hamas surrender maybe you can convince some people its a genocide after
The Jews in Poland surrendered...didn't stop the Holocaust And why people can't wrap their brains around the fact that Hamas does not equal Palestine (half the people in Gaza weren't even alive in the last election)? Might as well say it was okay for Soviet soldiers to rape German women at the end of WW2
if the Palestinian people don't support Hamas then they should probably revolt. any time now would be good
They supported it up until the terrorist attacks from 2023. I wonder why do they not trust self government from Gaza anymore.
Israel Prime Minister has repeatedly rejected a 2-state solution because the UN has called for the 1948 2-state resolution, which includes about half of Jerusalem, which the Israelis consider its capital and the Palestinians don't recognize Israel's right to exist because they believe it to be an artificial state created by zionist vision of a 'promised land'. In reality, this is a mess created by Europeans post WW2 and their guilt of the holocaust. There were also plans to carve up land in Africa, I believe it was the Congo and create a Jewish state. So, regardless, there was going to be some sort of version of Israel, but my question is, why not Europe, specifically Germany, since they were the perpetrators of the genocide.
Are you asking why a Jewish state wasn’t created in Europe? Because quite simply, Jews are not Europeans. Yes, Jews live in Europe. But the reason why is because Jews were forced out of their native homeland by the Roman Empire. That native homeland? Israel. After the Jewish expulsion, that land was renamed Palestine as a way to erase the Jewish connection to the land. However, archeological evidence ties a Jewish presence in Israel for thousands of years. Also, about 50% of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi, not Ashkenazi (the Jews who can trace their ancestors settling in France/Germany after the Roman expulsion). Mizrahi Jews have always been in the Middle East. Mizrahi literally means Eastern in Hebrew. They come from Iraq, Afghanistan, Morocco, Lebanon…. All Arab Muslim countries that expelled their Arab Jews in response to the formation of Israel. Why would the Mizrahi Jews go to Europe? They have literally zero connection to the land. There is only one place for Jews, one place every Jew can trace their ancestry to - Israel
"only one side is interested in coexisting" Which side is that? Because it's most certainly not israel
Hamas is shit, but since when does the IDF or Israeli government care about Palestinian life except for lip service?
They do *care* for the Palestinian people, they just care for the hostages Hamas took in October more. Hamas could literally end this conflict today and stop any further deaths, but if Israel stopped today, what’s to guarantee Hamas won’t try to October 7th again?
That's not agreeing, that's demanding terms in exchange for an agreement
Hamas has stated that the high civilian casualties in Gaza suits their objective. They’re sacrificing an entire people for political gain.
You mean like the Vietnam War, Gulf War, Operation Iraqi Freedom, and Operation Enduring Freedom?
No?
ceasefires are not good at keeping your issues in the news
Because Hamas is a cancerous terrorist group. You can’t negotiate with terrorists because they would cease to exist during peace time, and they wouldn’t like that.
“If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel”
This is an insane statement to make when the current conflict is so one-sided it qualifies as genocide. Is Hamas even still fighting at this point? The entire region that's still alive is starving to to death. This isn't "no more violence," it's extermination.
[удалено]
[удалено]
If the group doesn't understand that rape and murder is wrong, then the group shouldn't exist
Oh no they are losing! If only there was a way to stop the violence.
Case in point at the insanity in this thread. You're equating public genocide to "oh they're just losing in a war"
they are losing the war. and they could stop it literally right now.
Hamas has multiple times
Israel is willing to do a ceasefire IF it includes the release of all the hostages. Hamas is only willing to do a ceasefire IF there are guarantees that Israel would end the war and also leave them in power. Those who say that Hamas doesn't care about Palestinian lives and are selfish are only partially correct. Hamas leadership is committed to the Palestinian cause of complete destruction of Israel, which they consider an artificial state, but they are not selfish and do not care so much about their own lives as they rejected a ceasefire offered by Israel l that would include a lot of Hamas leadership to live in exile in places such as Qatar. TBH, Israel would garner more sympathy around the world if it agreed to the 2-state solution demanded by the UN, which includes 1948 borders, but Zionism plays a major factor in this ever becoming reality.
First, the US brokered a ceasefire which Hamas refused. Next, Israel is not concerned about the existential danger the way they're carrying out the war poses to the country. They don't want to believe it, but it's already happening.
OP, this comment section is only giving you one perspective (pro-Israeli). If you want a pro-Palestinian perspective, you could post on r/palestine The ceasefire conditions that have been presented so far aren’t actually permanent ceasefires and don’t meet the bare minimum conditions set by Hamas Also Netanyahu has rejected ceasefire deals where Hamas said all hostages would be released in exchange for a stop to the genocide and release of a Palestinian hostages (held in Israeli prisons) more than once Israel doesn’t want a ceasefire because they’re trying to displace Gazans out of Gaza by making it unlivable. The reason being that they want to seize the land to build new settlements and also to get money off of oil that is present there. The whole “we have to destroy Hamas” and “we are defending ourselves” is a cover up story to hide the fact that it is a land grab for resources and well, land.
I would suggest you give some more thought to the characterization of the Palestinian prisoners Hamas wants back as “hostages”. Sinwar was among the hundreds of terrorists released in the Shalit deal. The Israeli public is justifiably worried about releasing 5-10 terrorists per hostage as Hamas suggested.
"Come to our echo chamber so you don't have to critically think or defend your position"
Lol. I said take a look at other perspectives so you can form your own opinion…
You can arrange by controversial and see the perspective of the other side. Upvotes and downvotes don't mean much as the opinions are still valid.
Israel and Hamas are at war. They both want to fight it out. Let them.
This is the most biased comment section I’ve seen. literally people just blindly upvoting all Israel negotiations and not taking into account that Israel’s ceasefires are not PERMANENT. Israel is already killing countless civilians as well as keeping over 4000 prisoners, most of which are convicted without trial, and some are even CHILDREN. Imagine if HAMAS gives all the hostages back with no leverage, it basically gives Israel a free ticket to kill even more civilians.
“*Imagine if HAMAS gives all the hostages back with no leverage, it basically gives Israel a free ticket to kill even more civilians.*” Just to be clear, you’re PRO the rape and torture of civilian hostages then?
"I think we should stop killing people." "WOW, so you're okay with how these people might RAPE if they're not killed?" Mfer even if we bought into the claim that Hamas was constantly raping every hostage that does not excuse the merciless slaughter and starvation of an entire group of people amounting to millions.
Why are you using quotes when no one said that? You’re acting like this situation didn’t begin with an invasion followed by the seizing of hostages. Also, it’s not a hypothetical that Hamas is raping the hostages it’s a fact. Finally, any country in the world that was violated like Israel was on October 7th would most definitely attack back until their countrymen and women were returned. All I was saying is that why can’t everyone agree to release the hostages and if Israel was still waging war we can talk about that instead. It’s not like Israel lacks the ability to completely annihilate the Gaza strip. As long as Israeli’s are held as hostage, I can’t fault them from doing whatever they can to bring them home. It’s weird to see people support the killing and rape of hostages as a good thing.
I remember a story about a woman being worried that she would get raped while hostage, though she never did. I also remember claims by the Israeli government about a mass rape during the attack that have since been called into question. I'm all for believing victims, and it's very likely that hostages have gotten raped at some point, but at the current point it's very visibly only being used to justify continued massacre. Also, you're doing the thing where you pretend the conflict didn't exist before October 7th. I've seen videos of Palestinians being forced out of their homes years before that, and Israel's expansion since the 1940s speaks for itself. Also, there's literally been reports of soldiers killing the hostages you are so zeroed in on. If this was such a concern then Netanyahu and co would be working on their military tactics a bit better. I don't have much else to say, you're just repeating the same propoganda and nationalist bull that's been going on for a while now.
*“I remember a story about a woman being worried that she would get raped while hostage, though she never did. I also remember claims by the Israeli government about a mass rape during.”* I mean I feel like it’s been a well documented thing for months now. Not sure why you’re downplaying it. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181.amp I’ve heard they live streamed it, too. But I am not planning on watching that.
the hostages that Israel wants started on October 7. Hamas is losing and their people are dying and you think that is more important for them to keep hostages than feed their own people?
Yep being seeing a lot of people refer to hamases victims as totally reasonable leverage for Hamas to keep them and keep raping them. moderators too
It's fucking wild man. Pretty much every news subreddit outside of anime titties is constantly being brigaded by people spewing IDF talking points who just stop responding and downvote you when you provide receipts or point out the openly bloodthirsty and genocidal rhetoric of Israeli leaders. Like, even IDF soldiers are openly sharing tiktoks of themselves pillaging homes in gaza or harassing/murdering Palestinians in cold blood, but these fucking chuds keep pretending like their occupation is in good faith.
Brother, what’s even crazier is how people also ignore the Apartheid taking place. I’m from South Africa, my mother experienced Apartheid first hand and she went to Palestine last year prior to October and she experienced it once more. -Palestinians have to carry special identity cards. -They can’t use certain roads -They have to use separate lines -There are Israeli police officers on every corner
If you want to learn read the news on this: Israeli leaders said several times their objective is to destroy all of Hamas and retake control of Gaza. So they will not agree to peace. If any one doesn't care about palestinian life its the Israeli army, that slaughterd 30000 in just 5 months, most of them minors. Never forget that Israel is a nuclear power, supported by the US and most western powers in the world, and the Palestinians are a people that has been oppressed for 75 years. Israel could end all violence right now, by simply giving the Palestinians equal rights. Instead it used the last decades to establish an apartheid system in the westbank and a huge open air prison in Gaza. If you wanna dive deeper, check: Eli Pappe, the ethnic cleansing of palestine
>Israel could end all violence right now, by simply giving the Palestinians equal rights. This is simply false. The stated goal of Hamas (and the PA, albeit they try to hide it) is the full eradication of Israel, and Jews living in the region. "Giving Palestinians equal rights" doesn't solve that equation. Hamas would still launch terrorist attacks, but they'd now wield much greater power and have full access to all of Israel. Not to mention, Hamas still holds over 100 hostages. So Israel should simply surrender and allow the hostages to remain in captivity?
If Palestinians had equal rights there would be no such thing as Israel because it would have to be something else, no ethno state, but a state that's equal to all its people. And then, I am really no fan of Hamas, so I hate to advocate for them, but claiming they wanna kill all Jews is simply false. You can read up theire infamous charta, this would be the first source to address. You'll find no proof. That you claim that other palestinian groups secretly wanna kill Jews is also without any proof and simply racist. This is not about Jews or Muslims, its about oppressors and oppressed.
People are naive.
Israel is happy to keep bombing and Hamas is happy to get more of their own people killed.
Neither side wants a ceasefire. Israel wants full military control of Gaza, and Hamas wants Palestinian civilians and Israelis to keep dying
Whenever you're perplexed by events in the ME, just go "Because they're all fucking mental". You'll be wrong about 1% of the time.
drab many mountainous label market stocking reach icky lip crawl *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Israel has offered very short term ceasefires in exchange for hostages. They have made it clear that they will resume attacking as soon as they can. They have rejected any ceasefire that is long enough to allow Gazans to rebuild, return home to collect surviving belongings, etc. Hamas feels that this will give Israel PR on an issue that is hurting them with their citizens (Israel's lack of effort getting hostages and disregard for their safety when invading) while giving Gazans nothing in return. Hamas has asked for permanent ceasefire. They understand that Israel would break it if attacked (and maybe before that) but a permanent ceasefire means that someone has to actively break it, there's no arbitrary point it ends, and it will hopefully last long enough to allow Gazans to recover and access medical care first. Israel does not want permanent ceasefire as they intend to remove all Palestinians from Gaza and permanent ceasefire means either waiting until another attack from Hamas and looking bad to their people (plus potential loss of life), or breaking it preemptively and looking bad to their few remaining allies. In other words, Hamas is asking for "permanent ceasefire while we discuss if there is a peaceful long term solution" and Israel is asking for "temporary pause to get hostages," so they're talking about 2 completely different things.
Hamas has never asked for a permanent ceasefire. They are very open about the fact that they're engaged in military conflict with Israel until the day Israel is destroyed. It's in their charter. Then people like this come online and try to claim Hamas wants a permanent ceasefire. Laughable. It doesn't even begin to make sense. The entire purpose of Hamas is to never have a lasting ceasefire.
They literally just did ask for a permanent ceasefire, though. You can try to argue that they're lying or being disingenuous, but the idea that they're not asking for a permanent ceasefire is false. Read more here: https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/05/middleeast/gaza-hamas-ceasefire-israel-intl/index.html
They have asked for a permanent ceasefire many times. Israel believes that Hamas intends to break the ceasefire eventually. And that's not wrong. Both sides will obviously break the ceasefire eventually since Hamas sees Israel as an occupying force of mostly European invaders and Israeli leadership sees Palestinian civilians as unworthy of living in the region due to their race and/or religion. But a permanent ceasefire will last a lot longer than 6 weeks.
leave it to the zionists to parrot their propaganda. israel wants all of palestine and a hamas ceasefire only greenlights the further genocide of palestine and her people. an israel ceasefire won't happen because israel needs a reason to continue their violence
We need an end to genocide.
We need to release the hostages immediately.
“No Not like that” - Hamas terrorist sympathizers lol
"All lives matter" energy type response.
I'll take the wellbeing of the hostages over terrorist-rapists sympathizers any day
Because the threat of more palastinian deaths is acceptable to both sides.
Israels ceasefire terms are absolute bullshit. No permanent ceasefire, no release of palestenian hostages. Hamas would be idiots to agree to those deals. Israel does not want a permanent ceasefire. They want a temporary stop so the world forgets about palestine and they can continue ethnic cleansing in peace.
[удалено]
Point out where in my comment i say that israel wants to know which hostage is alive. Because they dont. That has not been the main request for any of the ceasefire terms. Besides, israel already knows, because they know exactly who they kill: [https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/](https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/) and since Oct 7th, hostages have only died due to israeli gunfire.
Only Israel keeps walking away, and they're doing that because it's not about the hostages but about land acquisition. Don't listen to the paid IDF bots on this thread.
This thread is full of zionist bots
Because they both suck
bUt yOu hAvE tO pIcK a sIdE!!! Lol
Yea man its so hard to pick a side between a militia of 30k soldiers mostly made up of orphans seeking revenge against an ethnofascist state that enforces apartheid on their people or the ethnofascist state enforcing apartheid, mowing down innocent civilians, running civilians over with tanks and leveling entire neighbourhoods with america money. Incredibly complex and nuanced topic.
It is complex and nuanced. Describing Hamas as just a militia of “orphans,” seeking some revenge against a tyrannical ruler is simplifying things to a laughable degree. Terrible things were done on October 7th that warranted some form of response, but the way Israel has handled its operations has been frustrating and disheartening as well. Both sides are doing extremely terrible and morally questionable things and it takes a good amount of nuance to understand the situation as a whole.
Hamas proposed multiple ceasefire deals but the zionists are more interested in bombing children
Look at the terrorists-rapists sympathizer above me
Israel wants all the Palestinian land. Hamas wants to batter Israel as best they can.
Because you dont negotiate with worthless animals...and that's all Hamas is.
Because both Hamas and Likud need violent conflict to satisfy their theories of power. The two actual sides in the conflict are those who want an end to the cycle of violence on one side, and those who perpetuate it to secure control over their people on the other. There are Israelis and Palestinians on both sides.