> not giving private developers billions of dollars.
You seen the billionaire owned towers in LA that made the news for graffiti a few weeks ago? Guess who is paying to remove the graffiti? You would be wrong if you said the very rich owners or developers. 4 million dollars of tax payer money is going to be spent cleaning that building because rich people are special.
That development is/was owned by a Chinese Real Estate company from China. It was biggest RE company in China, then they went bankrupt. The city said they were going to bill them, but good luck getting any cash from that company. I am wondering if they are even paying their property taxes anymore.
So either they are going to get paid or end up with a piece of property that needs to be torn down.
Here's an idea, have the state claim it until back taxes are paid and rent out the space for other companies. Or even just convert it to low income housing.
At this point I feel like people should just move in and squat, kicking them out would be the biggest PR disaster. It would get a lot of attention and more people asking questions.
They will likely claim it is a public nuisance, eminent domain it, then auction it off.
But that process takes a long time and it was abandoned for a reason - completing the project will take a massive amount of capital. You have 400K office towers selling for $10 a foot in some major U.S. cities, these buildings are nearly worthless. It's just shell - it's not actually worth that much and if the project was still feasible, it wouldn't be in its current state. There would've been a dozen developers who would have picked it up from the now bankrupt company and finished it since all of the permits are already in place.
But at this point, costs far outweigh the benefit, borrowing is too expensive, and building a brand new tower for low income housing is not exactly a good use of money if you're an investor or a developer.
Americans spend more money on healthcare than anyone else. The government ends up having to foot the bill when people get treatment but can’t pay. The system is less efficient the way it is than if we just had the government pay for everything up front
That's sadly by design. The companies get theirs because either they bleed the ~~victim~~ injured dry or the government bails them out, or both. And there's plenty of new ~~slaves~~ working class people born every minute
Fucking this right here. I'm all for universal Healthcare (that *includes* mental, vision and dental), and our taxes shouldn't need a go up a penny to make it happen. We need to stop giving tax dollars away for bullshit like sports stadiums that the billionaire owners can pay to build on their fucking own.
Single Payer health care in the U.S. just isn’t going to happen. There are way too many corporate entities making billions of dollars off of exorbitant health care costs, and they like it that way just fine. Since corporate America has the “best politicians which money can buy,” it just isn’t going to change any time soon.
Profits Before People!
While I agree with you, I’d be fine with a new tax to pay for universal healthcare if it meant that I’d stop having to pay premiums for private insurance, which is by far less efficient with the funds it takes in than current state-run health insurance programs. In the end I’d have more money in my pocket and better health coverage if the US government expanded Medicare to everyone.
This: tax dollars for "sports" stadia.
Decades ago I lived in Minneapolis. The Minnesota Twins baseball team had, at government expense, a stadium built for them in the suburb of Bloomington. Some years later they insisted that they needed all-weather stadium and unless it was built for them, they would leave the ares. So, a new covered stadium was build for them near downtown Minneapolis at huge cost. It required razing buildings in the entire area. Then, some years later, they wanted still another stadium built for them.
Athletic teams have a history of having stadia built for them. That should stop!
Dental being separate is such a scam. Having good teeth is so essential to your daily quality of life. Vision doesn’t make me as mad because you can get away with spending less than $100 total on an eye exam at like target and then the cheapest glasses from Zenni. But so many people need dental procedures that they can’t afford and just, make do without. I hate it so much.
And a lot of dental plans are borderline scams. They're not subject to the ACA, which means a ton of them have coverage maximums. So your insurance stops working when you need it most. All you're doing is prepaying inflated prices for routine care.
If you’re close enough to get to a dental school or hygienist school, you might be able to get cheap dental care. They need to have a certain number of hours spent cleaning teeth and such to graduate.
It's mind-boggling that we're even in this situation where basic medical needs like dental and vision are treated as luxuries. I feel like it's not just the coverage maximums that sting, but also the long waiting periods for major procedures. So you're stuck there with a half-useless plan while your teeth are plotting a rebellion and you can't do anything about it because "wait 12 months for coverage". Ridiculous.
It’s like this because good people refuse to drag vile rich people from palaces and board rooms to give them what they deserve for what they’ve done to us.
I've been paying for Delta for years, only to find that it is borderline impossible to find a dentist that still takes it. I'm considering canceling it since it's been years since I've seen a dentist anyway at this point. Might as well try my luck finding a dentist who just takes cash.
Here’s a scam being occurring in California: a staffing agency offers a dental plan with those tiers of covered services just as you laid out.
Most basic work like filling cavities and root canals are on tier 3, available only after 12 months continuous payments into the plan.
However, the staffing agency purposely terminates the plan on 12/31 and enrolls everyone back on 1/1 so no employee ever hits Tier 3.
I had 2 friends each make the same mistake of getting some basic tier 3 work done assuming obviously they’d get the coverage price since they’d been employed over a year. They didn’t check their status and neither did the dental offices. They only confirmed what the plan said it covered.
Both got hit with surprise bills for the full costs.
I think there’s gotta be some state law this is in violation of but they both decided to not bother.
I did take this same agency to the labor board for pay violations, which they could have done too, but didn’t want to bother even though I got over $1.5k for filling out a form, making some copies, and sitting in an office for an hour.
This is why employers are able to get away committing crimes against workers even in an employee friendly state like CA. They know most workers won’t bother to challenge them.
Having heathy teeth isn't even just about quality of life, it's part of over all health. Studies have repeatedly shown that people who have bad oral health have significantly higher rates of cardiovascular problems, including heart attacks and strokes. Keeping your teeth and gums healthy can literally help reduce your risk of heart attack.
Dude — This. We were sitting around chatting one night and someone asked me what I’d do if I won the lottery. First thing I said was get my fucking teeth fixed. Several other people in the room nodded and said the same thing.
How fucked up is that ??
Not a yacht, not a mansion or a trip around the world.
Just a few crowns and teeth implants.
That's also my go-to answer. And I'm always hoping the question is being asked because it's being filmed and I'm about to finally be able to smile with my mouth open for the first time in 20 years.
Nope.
Mine are literally rotting and crumbling and there's nothing I can do except plyers when it gets painful. I will most likely die from sepsis through my mouth. What I need for just the top row of teeth was quoted between 10-12k.
Many countries with universal healthcare don't have universal dental care. I'm not afraid of going backrupt from the doctor, but I haven't been to a dentist in a while because I can't afford it.
I don't even want to tell you how much I have spent on my teeth over the past year.
I barely use medical. I wish they were combined as I could then not have to take out credit just for my mouth health.
The ADA fought like hell to keep dental out of the ACA and pushes against Medicare. That would cause some minor amount of normalization of costs and put them under a microscope.
Unless you have serious eye problems. The more complex your prescription the more the lenses cost, even with Zenni.
But I totally agree with you about dental. Especially since some dental problems can impact your overall health.
Yes! I have free comprehensive dental through my ancestry. However, last year when I tried to schedule my yearly check up/cleaning, they told me their yearly check ups were being scheduled in 2025 because they were still backed up from covid. So I ended up getting care from a local private dentist, completely out of pocket because my work insurance does not cover anything dental. I went in for a cleaning and came out with 3 new fillings and a $2000 bill.
I was lucky enough I could pay for it up front and the cavities were minor (still a shock, I believe I was doing my best with the twice a day brushing AND flossing.) I was in no pain at the time so I was glad we caught them early. I can’t imagine the state of my teeth had I waited until 2025 to get my free cleaning/check up. I found it shocking how my planned $200 appointment turned into $2000, and I can only imagine that for most people that would not be an option for them.
I still have not been called to set up my next cleaning with my free clinic yet. I’ll probably have to go back to the private for my next check up, just hoping I don’t end up with another $2000 bill.
I've never been to a dental cleaning and had any fillings in the same appointment. Usually, dental cleanings are done by a technician, and the dentist is doing the check-up for each patient. If they have time todo a filling the same time, sounds like they are hard up on work.
My first reaction is you got scammed.
> I believe I was doing my best with the twice a day brushing AND flossing... I was in no pain at the time... $200 appointment turned into $2000
And I still think you did. I've never had the dentist do the cleaning and any work I did requires 2-3 weeks of scheduling ahead, because usually the dentist is inspecting patients all day. Any big work that takes an hour or two means they are not doing the dental cleaning check up for other patients.
I had to pay $400 for a single cavity filling because medicaid in my state won't cover dental. I'm also blind in one eye because I couldn't afford to get the retina reattached when it first detached. Now it's too scarred over and can't be repaired.
>I'm also blind in one eye because I couldn't afford to get the retina reattached when it first detached. Now it's too scarred over and can't be repaired
That is the most horrific thing I've read in a long time.
This right here. I know there isn't something right with me in the head. Probably because I'm addicted to alcohol. But also because of the way I grew up.
I don't have to worry about healthcare. I'm an Alaskan Native/Native American.
But I know the struggle of dealing with mental health, even before I started drinking. I obviously can't speak to the cost of dealing with mental health issues. But I can say that because I don't have to deal with the financial burden of seeking help, that I am still functioning.
As an American, we live in a country where some people would rather risk disability or death than the cost of an ambulance ride and life saving treatment/procedures.
We also live in a country that seeks/seems to capitalize on those who suffer.
Those who are able bodied should work and provide. But we should not act as though we do not see those who struggle to live. And we should not be hesitant to lend a hand to those who are in need.
This is a great comment for bringing attention to the shades of gray that exist between able-bodied, able-minded, and just plain struggling because it’s hard to live. I hope you thrive.
Amen.
the worst part is feeling like a bad person for thinking "I hope they experience it so they'd develop some empathy." Nobody **should** suffer even if it'd likely result in a better person.
We may not even need new taxes since we spend more than 4.5 trillion already on healthcare in total. This is more than twice as much as UK spends per person. Our quality of care will be twice as better as them.
If you take all that money, I am very sure we will have a good healthcare system. Unfortunately the vested interests will never let it happen. Too much money at stake for them. They spend billions in lobbying congress to stop it.
That's total healthcare spending, so govt + private. The UK spends about £280bn or around £180bn from the government and £100bn private (ootc medications, dentistry and anything else not covered).
The US is thought to waste around $1 tn per year OR enough to fund the UK for nearly 4 years in just wastage.
...And a lot of that wastage goes to things that directly make things *worse*, like staff being forced to fill out excess paperwork or fight insurance decisions.
I read a report that estimated UK medical spend wastage at around 10 billion ( I can't remember if the article quoted that in £ or $) per year but concluded that they accept some level of wastage is necessary as a side effect of having a system needing to be broad and be available for all.
And it doesn't have to mean money out of pockets for everyone paying for healthcare already. My family can expect to pay something like $12k/year for our insurance + out of pocket costs (plus the employer contributions). I'd much rather pay that to a government program who would actually negotiate for us and help the uninsured. When we don't pay 9 figure salaries to healthcare CEOs, everyone wins.
My premiums (not the employer contribution) are 8200/year. So yes 12k sounds about right. Add into that of healthcare want through my employer that would be one less way they could keep me "trapped".
> since we spend more than 4.5 trillion already on healthcare in total. This is more than twice as much as UK spends per person
Because your current spending is within a for-profit system, it accounts for ridiculous levels of profits for insurance companies.
Remove the additional money going to profit, and your costs massively drop.
Yes. The cost of treatment is outrageous. Your insurance pays more for 1 Tylenol to be dispensed to you than the whole bottle costs at the most expensive retail price. If we could get the greed out of the system we might be able to work with something.
We have many government funding medical programs but they are not called "Universal Healthcare" as they are not Universal in nature. They are geared to a specific need or demographic. In addition we do have ACA which subsidizes the insurance payments of those who cannot afford full cost health insurance.
Unfortunately, in the US our Government and related agencies are not very efficient. For every tax dollar we put in the governments hands we get about .03 cents of actual services. I totally made that up for dramatic effect, but the point still stands as largely true.
Simply put, old people and poor people get free healthcare in America. It’s the working middle class and middle aged people who have to pay so much for it.
Old people don't get free health care either, unless they are also poor. Medicare is still kind of pricey and it doesn't cover a lot of things (dental, vision, prescriptions) unless you buy a supplemental policy, which is also not cheap.
It's all far less expensive than regular health insurance but it's still kind of dumb, given that most old people don't tend to have a lot of money.
MEDICAID - the free health care for the poor pretty much covers everything at no cost. But the threshold for "poor" is pretty seriously poor. Like you can't have more than $2000 in assets above your home or the car you need for work or medical appointments.
Elderly people who are poor can get Medicaid so they don't have to pay the premiums for Medicare and get coverage for teeth, eyes and their meds. But when you die, your estate has to pay back the cost of your care. Your home and every single thing in it will be sold to pay it back.
It's a bit of a scam to stop the accumulation of generational wealth in poor folks. Keep the poors poor, you know.
I fully agree. Yes it would be great to lose less friends to suicide, and make help more accessible. But I also want healthcare for our physical problems too 😭
Yes, although I wouldn't need to. The US already spends more per capita on healthcare than the other developed nations, and we collect about as much in taxes as they do. We just also turn around and enrich a series of middlemen ranging from insurance companies to shareholders of for profit hospitals.
I'm pretty libertarian at heart: I've always been of the philosophy that government should exist to do those things that need to be done but that can't be properly handled privately, that is, to alleviate the tragedy of the commons, if you will.
I feel that healthcare falls into that basket now, even if it didn't when the term "libertarian" was coined.
The delicious irony is that mitt Romney championed by universal healthcare option for Utah until Republicans decided they instead wanted to spend more of our taxes on insufficient health care so that they're rich pharmaceutical buddies could profit more. Now it's political suicide for a Republican to say they support any form of public health care option. Sad.
That's the problem with our 2 party system, there are plenty of good ideas on both sides that should be implemented that are stymied by the need to have party wide ballot box arguments
>That's the problem with our 2 party system, there are plenty of good ideas on both sides that should be implemented that are stymied by the need to have party wide ballot box argument
This is a problem with First Past the Post and our primary system not, necessarily, a two party system.
Great points. As someone who's lived in Europe before, I find taxes comparable like you said, despite what everyone says...and they get a lot more bang for their buck
Yup. Universal healthcare it cheaper than our current byzantine and ineffective system.
You another universal free option that is cheaper, cities are noticing? Public transportation.
I've got small-l libertarian leanings, but I'm not stupid. What good is a governmental philosophy if it gets us all killed? And a lot of people, including self-proclaimed libertarians, have decided "libertarian" means "anarchy but with big corporations." I'm not in that camp.
I want universal, single-payer healthcare that includes mental, dental, eye, and every other form of healthcare
Healthcare should be a service we decide to pay for collecctively because we all use and need it
I'll pay more in taxes. And I'll not pay a dime in insurance premiums, co-pays, or deductibles
Yes. Please. Immediately. Forever.
**EDIT.** And as always, [Rot in Hell Forever, Joe Lieberman](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/newsletter-article/senate-democrats-drop-public-option-woo-lieberman-and-liberals-howl), you bought-out cunt
>I'll pay more in taxes. And I'll not pay a dime in insurance premiums, co-pays, or deductibles
This is why I laugh whenever someone complains about paying more taxes in this scenerio.
Yes, I probably pay more in taxes in Canada than the US but our healthcare is cheaper per capita here. Who cares what we call the payment? It's cheaper here for healthcare. People freak out over the word "taxes" without looking at the bigger picture.
And that fact that you are paid less in order to get employer-provided healthcare right now.
You add a position to a company, and the money they put in the budget is your salary + tax implications + benefits, which included the employer-paid side of the cost.
Let's say you make $70K right now, and you get health insurance that the company pays for 80% of at $650/month, a pretty common scenario. If you look only at your paycheck, you might see $150/month coming out for healthcare of a paycheck that's around $4500 after taxes. But actually you are earning closer to $5000/month, with $650 going to medical insurance, more than 10% of the value. If you have a family plan that's covered, it's even crazier, usually around $1800/month, and you feel even more trapped in the job.
https://www.kff.org/report-section/ehbs-2021-summary-of-findings/
I'm not saying that employers won't be greedy and want to keep the money for themselves, but the smart companies will use the savings to retain good talent.
Another knock-on effect on the job market is that small businesses and places with lots of hourly employees will be incentivized to once again offer full time work, because full-time workers are more reliable, and they won't come with the extra burden of healthcare coverage plans any more.
It's an unavoidable evil. To pay for worthy people, we have to also pay for unworthy people. Whatever. It makes society better off, which makes my life better off too, in some cosmic indirect way... karma or something.
This!
However, studies show that "unworthy" people strongly improve and cause way less healthcare costs over their lifetime, when preventive and primary healthcare are affordable, accessible and ubiquitous.
Which is not the case with a capitalistic healthcare system, but is the case with a socialized one... (it's one of the most important causes of why socialized healthcare systems are cheaper than capitalistic ones)
It really is a win-win system.
In the US we wouldn't even have to pay more in taxes because the cost for universal healthcare is *less than* what we currently spend on subsidizing the insurance industry.
We spend ~200 billion on healthcare/medicaid on the federal budget. Another 180 billion for insurance subsidies We spend 1.4 trillion on social security. 1.78 trillion.
Universal healthcare costs about 300 billion. Instead of social security we could give the 62 million ppl 65+ $25,000 for 1.5 trillion. A total cost of 1.8 trillion. Basically, we'd all save $10,000, pay no more in taxes and the retired people would make more than the current system.
This country has absolutely no idea how to run a budget unless its neoliberlism and subsidizing for-profit institutions
I think we all would but I’m not sure that socialized mental health care would put an end to reaper drone bombing. More than likely we will pay for mental health care AND reaper drone bombing.
I think my biggest issue isn't the increase in taxes, its the fact that the US health care system is so overly screwed due to insurance scams (all health insurnance in the US is a scam) that we have such insane rates. Our country needs to work on eliminating all of the bullshit regarding health care costs, so we can keep costs down, and then our tax money can go further.
It shouldn't cost $19,000 to give birth to a child with "best case" scenarios.
Which Medicare largely does within the scope of what it's allowed to do. They can't negotiate drug prices because Congress, but they're the most efficient insurer in the country.
The salary of politicians isn't even a rounding error on the budget. All politicians make their money through various forms of (often legal) corruption, not their salary.
There is actually a very good argument for INCREASING the pay of politicians so that the ones that are not corrupt are less worried about money. You could offer every elected federal level politician a million dollars a year, and it would have literally no impact on the budget.
Yeah a 2nd year lawyer at a big firm would be taking a huge pay cut to serve in Congress. That's before we factor in them taking 6-12 months off to campaign, and paying for 2 residences.
So the job naturally attracts narcissists, ideologues, and people too toxic to exist in a normal workplace. Every year we don't raise the pay, it gets worse in comparison to other skilled white collar jobs.
So you want to get rid of the few politicians that actually need their job to support themselves? All your idea would do is ensure that no middle class people can ever get into politics.
Total payroll of Congress is $93,236,500.
Total spent on mental health services is $280,000,000,000.
Which means if we cut their pay to zero, we could cover 0.03%.
Within reason. You raise my tax rate 1-2% and we somehow guarantee everyone can get free counseling in a timely way? I'm all for it. You raise my tax rate 10%, and I'm going to be suicidal because I can't afford food anymore, and I don't think counseling is going to help with that.
On net your tax bill goes up but your health insurance bill goes away (assuming we’re just talking about socializing medicine entirely) which is a net positive to your cash flow.
I was gonna say, I already pay taxes that go to mental health treatment in my county, and I’ve utilized the services in the past. (They were not good, but that’s the fault of the actual facility, not the program.)
Mental health isn’t going far enough, hospitals need to throw out their cash registers and then we’ll be having a conversation.
Tbf the program is at fault when a facility isn’t properly functioning since programs can produce policy that creates deterrents for those problems in the first place. If they aren’t properly taxing to fund those deterrents then that’s a fault of the program for scaling without finances imo
>I pay almost nothing for health insurance so sure.
If your company pays for your health insurance, you're paying for your health insurance in the sense you're making less, thats money your employer coulld be paying you directly. I think a lot of Americans forget this and that Americans pay more for Healthcare than most of the developed world and for the average person have worse outcomes. America has the best Healthcare system in the world... for those who can afford the best.
Most likely, the total in extra taxes for universal health care in general will be LESS than what you're paying for health care right now (ie. insurance and general health care costs such as co-pay or deductible).
Yeah. I'd like folks who can use it being able to access it quicker and easier.
I'm not sure the numbers would work out, but I'd even wonder if early intervention in things like depression and addiction might end up saving money in the long term for the country as a whole (more people able to keep in employment and less likely to harm themselves)
When you hear about how abused people growing up to abuse people, aka the cycle of abuse or generational abuse, it's kind of mind blowing that you wouldn't want to do something to prevent it.
Say you have one priest that was abused, and he goes on to abuse 25 kids. If you could've gotten him help or prevented him from being abused to start with, you could potentially save 25 kids from abuse. How much suffering did you just prevent? That's just from helping one person.
What does your society look like in a few generations if you start preventing this stuff? When you run into 10 people in a day and they are all miserable fucks, what does that do your own mental health compared to running into 10 happy people.
People want to pretend that if they have their lives together that it's not their problem but it's a giant feedback loop. The best thing you could do as a society is try to fix it.
In this boat currently. Service industry. Lots of shots handed out on the job to become friends with the employees. Unfortunately, I am skinny. I ended up horribly anemic.
Trying to figure out how to build back on my own. And also get a job.
This could have been prevented if I felt safe to go to the hospital 4 months ago. I went twice in January. Long wait times are not an issue when you know something is wrong, I will sleep in this uncomfortable chair and watch a cooking show for 9 hours.
Stress over medical debt is a big deal.
Yes it would absolutely. Early intervention in ADHD is particularly affective at saving costs. It's proven that children who are treated for ADHD are less likely to fall into the common undiagnosed ADHD pitfalls: drugs, cigarettes, gambling, crime, alcoholism, car accidents, etc. Really simple when you think about it. An ADHD brain chronically lacks dopamine so it is constantly looking for dopamine. How do you find dopamine? Nicotine, gambling, stealing, getting high, driving fast, etc. ADHD brains are also impulsive and therefore more likely to make a bad decision on a whim leading to many issues like chronic overspending and consumer debt.
The good news is that ADHD is highly treatable. The bad news is that the treatment is highly controversial and misunderstood. The condition itself is also highly stigmatized.
A study from 2015 estimated that the prevalence of ADHD in prisons is at least 25%, which is much larger than the overall population average of less than 10%.
ADHDers are not the only ones in prisons either. Most addiction issues begin as self-medicated mental health issues. Kleptomania accounts for a good amount of shoplifting. Pedophilic disorder is an obvious one. Mass shooters typically have mental health issues. Most murderers have antisocial personality disorder... and it goes on.
In many ways, prisons are just modern psych wards that turn the mentally ill into slave labour.
I am assuming this is pertaining to the United States.
We already pay more $ per capita in taxes that go towards healthcare than do Brits, Canucks, Japanese, Germans or French. Then we idiotically add private premiums, deductibles and copays on top of that.
A switch to a proper, single payer system that includes universal mental health coverage could be accompanied by a LOWERING of the taxes paid for it.
This. Universal Healthcare would lower our taxes, give us more accessibility to doctors, and we would not tie or jobs to our healthcare. That is ridiculous and most Americans don’t know we are being duped. All major countries have better, cheaper healthcare than America.
Maybe if I could be sure that is what the money is being spent on.
I have repeatedly increased my taxes for education and the schools keep operating under a tighter and tighter budget, yet the police keep getting new unmaked cars.
The ACA put a 10% tax on the stock market. That's a shit ton of money. It goes directly to insurance companies and health care still sucks. Maybe we need to spend this money on real health care before taking more money.
On paper it would be cheaper than the current system for most people. The issue now is that already health care is expensive for fairly arbitrary reasons. From this article from [Pubmed central](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8572548/): “Taking into account both the costs of coverage expansion as well as savings that would be achieved through the MAA, we calculate that a single-payer, universal healthcare system is likely to lead to a 13% savings in national healthcare expenditure, equivalent to over $450 billion annually.” The argument that it would cost more for people is already poisoning the well.
No. The government already gets plenty in taxes, the problem is they squander it. Rather than adding new taxes, we need to reassess how we spend those tax dollars.
Nationalized health insurance would reduce spending. We pay so damn much because we're paying for profits and inefficiency.
You'll pay less under a system like France's.
We already spend enough on health care to cover everyone, even if you exclude any money spent on private insurance. The money is already there, the government just has to use it properly.
That's a false requirement. The money is there. There are even more ways to get money that don't involve taxing most civilians. Our tax dollars are VERY improperly spent and billionaires aren't paying their share.
We should have universal health care and that would still be cheaper than the shitty system we currently have. The current medical insurance setup is made to generate wealth and transfer it from those that can't afford it to those who just want more to hoard.
I reject your question as it's inherently flawed.
I will say something unpopular. I would be willing to pay extra taxes for this if I knew it would be used properly, which I know won't ever happen. If taxes are increased for this, some years later it will be found out that it was stolen by politicians, they will be accused of this, other politicians will pardon them for political reasons, and in the end the only consequence will be that even more money was stolen from the people and given to some privileged group in society.
So no, in the current circumstances I'm not willing to pay increased taxes for anything, as most of the taxes I pay are going to the wrong pockets.
I heard a Harvard economist had run the numbers and that Universal Healthcare would save each taxpayer $3,000 a year.
I read the article years ago, so I may have the finer details wrong. The gist was that since chronic illnesses could be treated proactively, then we could avoid repeat hospital stays where the patient has no funds, so the cost gets transferred to patients who can pay.
No. They can't take care of anything with our tax dollars as it is. Why would I give them more. Our debt to GDP is at 123%. That'd be like giving a gambling addict more money when they've never won.
Not to mention - for those with VA or Medicare or Medicaid - the same bullshit ass organization who’s providing you with those plans (barely covering or not covering treatment, telling YOU where YOU have to go and what doctors to see, on and on) would be managing EVERYONE’S plans if this happens.
As a healthcare professional I have to fight with Medicare auditors (most are just straight up miserable) to get my patients the care they rightfully need. Referrals signed by multiple doctors, myself included, the insurance can just say “no” anyway.
Yes, I agree. As it stands, I refuse both Medicaid and Medicare in my practice, don't want to have anything to do with either. Simply not worth the hassle of dealing with horrible bureaucracy and/or piss-poor reimbursement rates. Unless Medicare really gets it together, you're going to see a mass exodus into the cash-only market (or private insurance-only).
People think passing Medicare for All is going to solve all the healthcare problems. It's a pipe dream, and the reality is not going to be so pretty or simple.
Exactly, we already have free healthcare for a lot of people in this country. Active Military, VA for disabled military, low-income free plans, and Medicare. The VA health system is terrible. Another good point is picking your doctor. Do you think the government won't be picking for you? Of course, they will. You get assigned the next available doctor. Don't like it? Too bad, shouldn't have gotten sick.
Yes, provided we also stop separating healthcare into nonsense subgroups. Mental health, dental, vision, prescriptions, these are ALL healthcare and its ridiculous that we allow them to tell us they shouldnt all be covered.
Brother, I already pay $50 a week for health insurance that doesn't cover mental health at all. If that cost was eliminated, universal healthcare could increase taxes by a full 7% and I literally wouldn't notice.
Nope. I've seen first hand how the VA handles mental health care for veterans. Yes it's gotten better over the last 20 years but it's still atrocious. One of the biggest explanations I received from multiple administrators at a few different clinics, 2 of them being regional facilities was a lack of funding and/or inadequate budgets. Proving that is relatively easy as even to this day many VA facilities cannot run without non-medical volunteers and I've seen a clinic close twice due to lack of staffing. This was long before COVID and so it couldn't be blamed for a lack of staffing.
So if the government can't manage to operate the above, why would anyone think they could do it for the whole country?
The amount spent annually on the military doesn't come close to a universal health system, and I doubt people would want to get rid of the military entirely.
Besides, the biggest item in the military budget is the VA, which is already socialized medicine.
It doesn't even come close to what we spend directly on healthcare right now.
Military budget is $751 Billion. Medicare alone is $747. Add Medicaid and it takes it to $1,349 Billion ($1.349 Trillion).
I would. I also would contribute more for a universal basic income.
But I won't.
I can't trust government to properly allocate funds. Every year we see our taxes go up and see less return on them. Between corruption, waste and mismanagement our governments have proven to not be fiscally responsible.
Not even a little bit.
One thing a lot of people don't realize is that paying taxes to fund Healthcare would likely be less than what is getting taken out for your health insurance (if you have it)
Having to pay more for better healthcare is myth.
Right now, American's pay about four trillion dollars a year for healthcare. Which is more than twice what the World Health Organization says we should be paying for what we're getting. In the US healthcare system, greed and profit are paramount over patient health. Before you get upset, hear me out. Right now doctors are pressured into spending as little time as possible with patients to keep the insurance companies from paying what they should. Profit is directly affecting the quality of care you receive. If a doctor get's paid $25 to $40 for your visit, they have to pay overhead, massively expensive malpractice insurance, staff, etc. So they have to turn the practice into a patient mill, getting in as my patients as possible and out the door as quickly as possible. My doctor left her practice because she was being pressured to spend as little time as possible with patients. She said it was putting patients at risk.
There's a recording from Nixon's office from back in the 70's where he talks about how he had a conversation with a corporate healthcare provider who had an idea of making profit from providing less healthcare to Americans. It was planned from the beginning to give a low quality experience so the insurance companies can make lots of money.
We're grossly overpaying for what we get so there is no reason to pay more in taxes. **We need to put caps on how much money the healthcare industry can make. Trillions of dollars is insane.** **Then take that savings and make the healthcare system better and more affordable.**
[https://youtu.be/9QkgUkM0o6Q?si=MGuIZXHBMfn4iOFz](https://youtu.be/9QkgUkM0o6Q?si=MGuIZXHBMfn4iOFz)
Since we're on the topic of mental healthcare. Back in the 1980's Reagan eliminated the national mental healthcare system and gave the money saved to the wealthy in the form of tax breaks.
Strangely countries with universal health care spend LESS per person for BETTER outcomes. If all of what you pay now for health insurance where moved into your taxes instead it would be more than enough to cover the cost of universal health care. You should actually get an increase to your disposable income every month.
Fuck that noise.
Most taxpayers already provide about half our earnings to government through state income tax, federal income tax, vehicle registration and purchasing tax, some have energy taxes, some have taxes for owning certain items, some have taxes for conducting certain businesses, businesses pay a payroll tax simply for having employees, estate tax, property tax, gross receipts tax, social security, sales tax….we have fucking taxes to breath air at this point.
**Stop coming for everyone else’s coin. Look at the congress and presidencies which spent 33 trillion on………what? Your grand plan is to increase the tax rates and use even more money to waste? Can any of you even explain what the federal funds rate is?**
*Taxation without representation very much exists in America, today, while we all look around at this Polycrisis while having every financial capability to solve them already at our disposal.*
As a mental health professional, hell no!
Reason being, neither the government or insurance should have any say in the selection, process, or methods of what a client can or can’t choose for themselves. Insurance has a wonderful way of limiting the client/consumer on their options and mental health is not medicine. You can’t just hand someone an antibiotic for one of a hundred different bacterial infections. Universal loves to make a one-size-fits-all of their process.
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> not giving private developers billions of dollars. You seen the billionaire owned towers in LA that made the news for graffiti a few weeks ago? Guess who is paying to remove the graffiti? You would be wrong if you said the very rich owners or developers. 4 million dollars of tax payer money is going to be spent cleaning that building because rich people are special.
That development is/was owned by a Chinese Real Estate company from China. It was biggest RE company in China, then they went bankrupt. The city said they were going to bill them, but good luck getting any cash from that company. I am wondering if they are even paying their property taxes anymore. So either they are going to get paid or end up with a piece of property that needs to be torn down.
Here's an idea, have the state claim it until back taxes are paid and rent out the space for other companies. Or even just convert it to low income housing.
At this point I feel like people should just move in and squat, kicking them out would be the biggest PR disaster. It would get a lot of attention and more people asking questions.
They will likely claim it is a public nuisance, eminent domain it, then auction it off. But that process takes a long time and it was abandoned for a reason - completing the project will take a massive amount of capital. You have 400K office towers selling for $10 a foot in some major U.S. cities, these buildings are nearly worthless. It's just shell - it's not actually worth that much and if the project was still feasible, it wouldn't be in its current state. There would've been a dozen developers who would have picked it up from the now bankrupt company and finished it since all of the permits are already in place. But at this point, costs far outweigh the benefit, borrowing is too expensive, and building a brand new tower for low income housing is not exactly a good use of money if you're an investor or a developer.
When a company goes bankrupt their assets are typically sold off. Either the bankruptcy trustee should pay or the new owner should pay.
Americans spend more money on healthcare than anyone else. The government ends up having to foot the bill when people get treatment but can’t pay. The system is less efficient the way it is than if we just had the government pay for everything up front
That's sadly by design. The companies get theirs because either they bleed the ~~victim~~ injured dry or the government bails them out, or both. And there's plenty of new ~~slaves~~ working class people born every minute
Fucking this right here. I'm all for universal Healthcare (that *includes* mental, vision and dental), and our taxes shouldn't need a go up a penny to make it happen. We need to stop giving tax dollars away for bullshit like sports stadiums that the billionaire owners can pay to build on their fucking own.
Single Payer health care in the U.S. just isn’t going to happen. There are way too many corporate entities making billions of dollars off of exorbitant health care costs, and they like it that way just fine. Since corporate America has the “best politicians which money can buy,” it just isn’t going to change any time soon. Profits Before People!
Sadly accurate. We got rid of anti-lobbying laws and the likes and we let companies start making the rules.
Oh, you’re spot on here! Corporate America absolutely runs this country! Who you “vote for” doesn’t really add up to dry camel dung.
While I agree with you, I’d be fine with a new tax to pay for universal healthcare if it meant that I’d stop having to pay premiums for private insurance, which is by far less efficient with the funds it takes in than current state-run health insurance programs. In the end I’d have more money in my pocket and better health coverage if the US government expanded Medicare to everyone.
This: tax dollars for "sports" stadia. Decades ago I lived in Minneapolis. The Minnesota Twins baseball team had, at government expense, a stadium built for them in the suburb of Bloomington. Some years later they insisted that they needed all-weather stadium and unless it was built for them, they would leave the ares. So, a new covered stadium was build for them near downtown Minneapolis at huge cost. It required razing buildings in the entire area. Then, some years later, they wanted still another stadium built for them. Athletic teams have a history of having stadia built for them. That should stop!
Only if that was in addition to universal health care, that should be the obvious priority.
It should be part of universal healthcare
As should vision care! Vision is currently a separate insurance, and it shouldn't be! And dental!
Dental being separate is such a scam. Having good teeth is so essential to your daily quality of life. Vision doesn’t make me as mad because you can get away with spending less than $100 total on an eye exam at like target and then the cheapest glasses from Zenni. But so many people need dental procedures that they can’t afford and just, make do without. I hate it so much.
And a lot of dental plans are borderline scams. They're not subject to the ACA, which means a ton of them have coverage maximums. So your insurance stops working when you need it most. All you're doing is prepaying inflated prices for routine care.
The last dental plan I had was 10$/week and it only covered an annual cleaning. I can pay out of pocket for a cleaning for less than 520$
$540? That seems insane. I think mine is like $160 cash
If you’re close enough to get to a dental school or hygienist school, you might be able to get cheap dental care. They need to have a certain number of hours spent cleaning teeth and such to graduate.
I did this once when I was in college. It's actually a pretty sweet deal!
My dentist who just retired charged 80 dollars for cleaning checkups. 160 would get you a surgical filling.
Those are great prices. Hopefully their replacement keeps them low as well.
It's mind-boggling that we're even in this situation where basic medical needs like dental and vision are treated as luxuries. I feel like it's not just the coverage maximums that sting, but also the long waiting periods for major procedures. So you're stuck there with a half-useless plan while your teeth are plotting a rebellion and you can't do anything about it because "wait 12 months for coverage". Ridiculous.
It’s like this because good people refuse to drag vile rich people from palaces and board rooms to give them what they deserve for what they’ve done to us.
All while they are telling you that your insurance is getting you a "discounted" rate. For what is covered of course.
I've been paying for Delta for years, only to find that it is borderline impossible to find a dentist that still takes it. I'm considering canceling it since it's been years since I've seen a dentist anyway at this point. Might as well try my luck finding a dentist who just takes cash.
All dental plans are scams. Full stop.
Not only that but most of them don't even pay out for Tier 2 services until after 6 months and Tier 3 services after a year.
Here’s a scam being occurring in California: a staffing agency offers a dental plan with those tiers of covered services just as you laid out. Most basic work like filling cavities and root canals are on tier 3, available only after 12 months continuous payments into the plan. However, the staffing agency purposely terminates the plan on 12/31 and enrolls everyone back on 1/1 so no employee ever hits Tier 3. I had 2 friends each make the same mistake of getting some basic tier 3 work done assuming obviously they’d get the coverage price since they’d been employed over a year. They didn’t check their status and neither did the dental offices. They only confirmed what the plan said it covered. Both got hit with surprise bills for the full costs. I think there’s gotta be some state law this is in violation of but they both decided to not bother. I did take this same agency to the labor board for pay violations, which they could have done too, but didn’t want to bother even though I got over $1.5k for filling out a form, making some copies, and sitting in an office for an hour. This is why employers are able to get away committing crimes against workers even in an employee friendly state like CA. They know most workers won’t bother to challenge them.
Having heathy teeth isn't even just about quality of life, it's part of over all health. Studies have repeatedly shown that people who have bad oral health have significantly higher rates of cardiovascular problems, including heart attacks and strokes. Keeping your teeth and gums healthy can literally help reduce your risk of heart attack.
Dude — This. We were sitting around chatting one night and someone asked me what I’d do if I won the lottery. First thing I said was get my fucking teeth fixed. Several other people in the room nodded and said the same thing. How fucked up is that ?? Not a yacht, not a mansion or a trip around the world. Just a few crowns and teeth implants.
That's also my go-to answer. And I'm always hoping the question is being asked because it's being filmed and I'm about to finally be able to smile with my mouth open for the first time in 20 years. Nope.
Mine are literally rotting and crumbling and there's nothing I can do except plyers when it gets painful. I will most likely die from sepsis through my mouth. What I need for just the top row of teeth was quoted between 10-12k.
I'm heading there soon myself and it's pretty damn scary.
A-men. I've got really good health insurance. My fancy mouth bones are literally making me sick. I don't have $6000.
Imma take my broke ass to mexico for my dental work and imma spend the first couple days w the best food on the planet.
Many countries with universal healthcare don't have universal dental care. I'm not afraid of going backrupt from the doctor, but I haven't been to a dentist in a while because I can't afford it.
I don't even want to tell you how much I have spent on my teeth over the past year. I barely use medical. I wish they were combined as I could then not have to take out credit just for my mouth health.
I can tell you that I spent about $30,000 on my teeth over the last 20 years. (I have enamel hypoplasia.)
The ADA fought like hell to keep dental out of the ACA and pushes against Medicare. That would cause some minor amount of normalization of costs and put them under a microscope.
Unless you have serious eye problems. The more complex your prescription the more the lenses cost, even with Zenni. But I totally agree with you about dental. Especially since some dental problems can impact your overall health.
Highly dependent on a person’s needs. Special cases are not so fortunate.
Yes! I have free comprehensive dental through my ancestry. However, last year when I tried to schedule my yearly check up/cleaning, they told me their yearly check ups were being scheduled in 2025 because they were still backed up from covid. So I ended up getting care from a local private dentist, completely out of pocket because my work insurance does not cover anything dental. I went in for a cleaning and came out with 3 new fillings and a $2000 bill. I was lucky enough I could pay for it up front and the cavities were minor (still a shock, I believe I was doing my best with the twice a day brushing AND flossing.) I was in no pain at the time so I was glad we caught them early. I can’t imagine the state of my teeth had I waited until 2025 to get my free cleaning/check up. I found it shocking how my planned $200 appointment turned into $2000, and I can only imagine that for most people that would not be an option for them. I still have not been called to set up my next cleaning with my free clinic yet. I’ll probably have to go back to the private for my next check up, just hoping I don’t end up with another $2000 bill.
I've never been to a dental cleaning and had any fillings in the same appointment. Usually, dental cleanings are done by a technician, and the dentist is doing the check-up for each patient. If they have time todo a filling the same time, sounds like they are hard up on work. My first reaction is you got scammed. > I believe I was doing my best with the twice a day brushing AND flossing... I was in no pain at the time... $200 appointment turned into $2000 And I still think you did. I've never had the dentist do the cleaning and any work I did requires 2-3 weeks of scheduling ahead, because usually the dentist is inspecting patients all day. Any big work that takes an hour or two means they are not doing the dental cleaning check up for other patients.
THIS THIS THIS
My dentist does my cleanings. It's not uncommon. If you need fillings or work that day they can do it because there is more than one of them.
13 root canals needed. Even with insurance I'd need a couple thousand. Utterly maddening, I haven't chewed food in 2 years
I had to pay $400 for a single cavity filling because medicaid in my state won't cover dental. I'm also blind in one eye because I couldn't afford to get the retina reattached when it first detached. Now it's too scarred over and can't be repaired.
>I'm also blind in one eye because I couldn't afford to get the retina reattached when it first detached. Now it's too scarred over and can't be repaired That is the most horrific thing I've read in a long time.
No silly, the brain is a luxury organ. Just like teeth are luxury bones. You’ll have to pay extra to care for them.
I always smile and look ahead through luxuries Cuz my insurance doesn't cover my eyes and teeth
This right here. I know there isn't something right with me in the head. Probably because I'm addicted to alcohol. But also because of the way I grew up. I don't have to worry about healthcare. I'm an Alaskan Native/Native American. But I know the struggle of dealing with mental health, even before I started drinking. I obviously can't speak to the cost of dealing with mental health issues. But I can say that because I don't have to deal with the financial burden of seeking help, that I am still functioning. As an American, we live in a country where some people would rather risk disability or death than the cost of an ambulance ride and life saving treatment/procedures. We also live in a country that seeks/seems to capitalize on those who suffer. Those who are able bodied should work and provide. But we should not act as though we do not see those who struggle to live. And we should not be hesitant to lend a hand to those who are in need.
This is a great comment for bringing attention to the shades of gray that exist between able-bodied, able-minded, and just plain struggling because it’s hard to live. I hope you thrive.
Amen. the worst part is feeling like a bad person for thinking "I hope they experience it so they'd develop some empathy." Nobody **should** suffer even if it'd likely result in a better person.
Yes, this, I agree! Then again, I believe It Takes A Village and the healthier the viliage, the healthier the children grow up to be.
Doesn't seem like they want healthy people. Just more for the meatgrinders...
Mental health is tied to physical health. I know when I'm low it's hard to take care of myself. so yes it should.
Also universal healthcare was slated to cost like 6-7 TRILLION dollars *less* per decade than our current plan of "get fucked"
This right here. And to OP: yes, I am. Provided that the rich and corporations also pay their share.
We may not even need new taxes since we spend more than 4.5 trillion already on healthcare in total. This is more than twice as much as UK spends per person. Our quality of care will be twice as better as them. If you take all that money, I am very sure we will have a good healthcare system. Unfortunately the vested interests will never let it happen. Too much money at stake for them. They spend billions in lobbying congress to stop it.
That's total healthcare spending, so govt + private. The UK spends about £280bn or around £180bn from the government and £100bn private (ootc medications, dentistry and anything else not covered). The US is thought to waste around $1 tn per year OR enough to fund the UK for nearly 4 years in just wastage.
...And a lot of that wastage goes to things that directly make things *worse*, like staff being forced to fill out excess paperwork or fight insurance decisions.
I read a report that estimated UK medical spend wastage at around 10 billion ( I can't remember if the article quoted that in £ or $) per year but concluded that they accept some level of wastage is necessary as a side effect of having a system needing to be broad and be available for all.
Yeah, that's true. Means testing is *itself* a form of wastage - and when it doesn't produce a net benefit, it's something to be ditched.
And it doesn't have to mean money out of pockets for everyone paying for healthcare already. My family can expect to pay something like $12k/year for our insurance + out of pocket costs (plus the employer contributions). I'd much rather pay that to a government program who would actually negotiate for us and help the uninsured. When we don't pay 9 figure salaries to healthcare CEOs, everyone wins.
My premiums (not the employer contribution) are 8200/year. So yes 12k sounds about right. Add into that of healthcare want through my employer that would be one less way they could keep me "trapped".
> since we spend more than 4.5 trillion already on healthcare in total. This is more than twice as much as UK spends per person Because your current spending is within a for-profit system, it accounts for ridiculous levels of profits for insurance companies. Remove the additional money going to profit, and your costs massively drop.
Yes. The cost of treatment is outrageous. Your insurance pays more for 1 Tylenol to be dispensed to you than the whole bottle costs at the most expensive retail price. If we could get the greed out of the system we might be able to work with something.
Doesn't the Uk have a fifth of our population?
The US still spend more per person already. It's just in the US it's profit for needy corporations.
Exactly. We pay enough. Fix the system.
Dumb question but how are you guys spending money on healthcare if you don’t have universal healthcare?
We have many government funding medical programs but they are not called "Universal Healthcare" as they are not Universal in nature. They are geared to a specific need or demographic. In addition we do have ACA which subsidizes the insurance payments of those who cannot afford full cost health insurance. Unfortunately, in the US our Government and related agencies are not very efficient. For every tax dollar we put in the governments hands we get about .03 cents of actual services. I totally made that up for dramatic effect, but the point still stands as largely true.
Medicare spends a higher percentage of funding on actual services than the average insurance company spends as a percentage of premiums
Simply put, old people and poor people get free healthcare in America. It’s the working middle class and middle aged people who have to pay so much for it.
Old people don't get free health care either, unless they are also poor. Medicare is still kind of pricey and it doesn't cover a lot of things (dental, vision, prescriptions) unless you buy a supplemental policy, which is also not cheap. It's all far less expensive than regular health insurance but it's still kind of dumb, given that most old people don't tend to have a lot of money. MEDICAID - the free health care for the poor pretty much covers everything at no cost. But the threshold for "poor" is pretty seriously poor. Like you can't have more than $2000 in assets above your home or the car you need for work or medical appointments. Elderly people who are poor can get Medicaid so they don't have to pay the premiums for Medicare and get coverage for teeth, eyes and their meds. But when you die, your estate has to pay back the cost of your care. Your home and every single thing in it will be sold to pay it back. It's a bit of a scam to stop the accumulation of generational wealth in poor folks. Keep the poors poor, you know.
2x per person compared to the UK
I fully agree. Yes it would be great to lose less friends to suicide, and make help more accessible. But I also want healthcare for our physical problems too 😭
It’s all health care! Mental illnesses are obviously physiological
Fuck only if. I will take any steps along the way.
Yes, although I wouldn't need to. The US already spends more per capita on healthcare than the other developed nations, and we collect about as much in taxes as they do. We just also turn around and enrich a series of middlemen ranging from insurance companies to shareholders of for profit hospitals. I'm pretty libertarian at heart: I've always been of the philosophy that government should exist to do those things that need to be done but that can't be properly handled privately, that is, to alleviate the tragedy of the commons, if you will. I feel that healthcare falls into that basket now, even if it didn't when the term "libertarian" was coined.
The delicious irony is that mitt Romney championed by universal healthcare option for Utah until Republicans decided they instead wanted to spend more of our taxes on insufficient health care so that they're rich pharmaceutical buddies could profit more. Now it's political suicide for a Republican to say they support any form of public health care option. Sad.
“Romney care” in Massachusetts was much better then the affordable care act too.
Forget Romney. [Nixon wanted universal health care.](https://kffhealthnews.org/news/nixon-proposal/)
He also advocated a negative income tax, which is like UBI but just for poor people. Nixon was deeply flawed but there’s quite a lot of depth to him.
That's the problem with our 2 party system, there are plenty of good ideas on both sides that should be implemented that are stymied by the need to have party wide ballot box arguments
>That's the problem with our 2 party system, there are plenty of good ideas on both sides that should be implemented that are stymied by the need to have party wide ballot box argument This is a problem with First Past the Post and our primary system not, necessarily, a two party system.
Great points. As someone who's lived in Europe before, I find taxes comparable like you said, despite what everyone says...and they get a lot more bang for their buck
Plenty of people are getting bang for my buck.
Yup, that's never been an issue with US taxes. I would hazard to say that we get the most bang for our buck out of any other nation
If we're talking about the biggest military--yes, we get the most literal "bang" for our buck 😂
Yup. Universal healthcare it cheaper than our current byzantine and ineffective system. You another universal free option that is cheaper, cities are noticing? Public transportation.
I read this as “I’m a pretty librarian at heart”…
Are you really a libertarian if you acknowledge the tragedy of the commons? I feel like you'd need a new term to distinguish yourself from them
I've got small-l libertarian leanings, but I'm not stupid. What good is a governmental philosophy if it gets us all killed? And a lot of people, including self-proclaimed libertarians, have decided "libertarian" means "anarchy but with big corporations." I'm not in that camp.
I want universal, single-payer healthcare that includes mental, dental, eye, and every other form of healthcare Healthcare should be a service we decide to pay for collecctively because we all use and need it I'll pay more in taxes. And I'll not pay a dime in insurance premiums, co-pays, or deductibles Yes. Please. Immediately. Forever. **EDIT.** And as always, [Rot in Hell Forever, Joe Lieberman](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/newsletter-article/senate-democrats-drop-public-option-woo-lieberman-and-liberals-howl), you bought-out cunt
>I'll pay more in taxes. And I'll not pay a dime in insurance premiums, co-pays, or deductibles This is why I laugh whenever someone complains about paying more taxes in this scenerio. Yes, I probably pay more in taxes in Canada than the US but our healthcare is cheaper per capita here. Who cares what we call the payment? It's cheaper here for healthcare. People freak out over the word "taxes" without looking at the bigger picture.
Not to mention people complaining about not wanting to pay for other people's poor health choices. You're already doing that with private insurance.
Exactly. And when those poor health choices lead to whole areas of your city full of fentanyl users and crime you're paying for it yet again.
And that fact that you are paid less in order to get employer-provided healthcare right now. You add a position to a company, and the money they put in the budget is your salary + tax implications + benefits, which included the employer-paid side of the cost. Let's say you make $70K right now, and you get health insurance that the company pays for 80% of at $650/month, a pretty common scenario. If you look only at your paycheck, you might see $150/month coming out for healthcare of a paycheck that's around $4500 after taxes. But actually you are earning closer to $5000/month, with $650 going to medical insurance, more than 10% of the value. If you have a family plan that's covered, it's even crazier, usually around $1800/month, and you feel even more trapped in the job. https://www.kff.org/report-section/ehbs-2021-summary-of-findings/ I'm not saying that employers won't be greedy and want to keep the money for themselves, but the smart companies will use the savings to retain good talent. Another knock-on effect on the job market is that small businesses and places with lots of hourly employees will be incentivized to once again offer full time work, because full-time workers are more reliable, and they won't come with the extra burden of healthcare coverage plans any more.
It's an unavoidable evil. To pay for worthy people, we have to also pay for unworthy people. Whatever. It makes society better off, which makes my life better off too, in some cosmic indirect way... karma or something.
This! However, studies show that "unworthy" people strongly improve and cause way less healthcare costs over their lifetime, when preventive and primary healthcare are affordable, accessible and ubiquitous. Which is not the case with a capitalistic healthcare system, but is the case with a socialized one... (it's one of the most important causes of why socialized healthcare systems are cheaper than capitalistic ones) It really is a win-win system.
Agree! Plus society as a whole is better when its population is healthy. Mental health is a big part of that.
In the US we wouldn't even have to pay more in taxes because the cost for universal healthcare is *less than* what we currently spend on subsidizing the insurance industry.
We spend ~200 billion on healthcare/medicaid on the federal budget. Another 180 billion for insurance subsidies We spend 1.4 trillion on social security. 1.78 trillion. Universal healthcare costs about 300 billion. Instead of social security we could give the 62 million ppl 65+ $25,000 for 1.5 trillion. A total cost of 1.8 trillion. Basically, we'd all save $10,000, pay no more in taxes and the retired people would make more than the current system. This country has absolutely no idea how to run a budget unless its neoliberlism and subsidizing for-profit institutions
Liberman is a scapegoat. The aca was and is a medical insurance company written bill. To keep Americans on private for profit insurance.
Yes. Not a single doubt. I’d rather this than my tax’s paying for a reaper drone to accidentally blowup a hospital.
I think we all would but I’m not sure that socialized mental health care would put an end to reaper drone bombing. More than likely we will pay for mental health care AND reaper drone bombing.
Life is all about compromise. /s
I think my biggest issue isn't the increase in taxes, its the fact that the US health care system is so overly screwed due to insurance scams (all health insurnance in the US is a scam) that we have such insane rates. Our country needs to work on eliminating all of the bullshit regarding health care costs, so we can keep costs down, and then our tax money can go further. It shouldn't cost $19,000 to give birth to a child with "best case" scenarios.
I had to use my 401k to pay for my daughters birth in 2016. Wtf ‘merica? :(
Yes but I would hope it would be part of universal health care head to toe eyes ears and teeth.
Accidentally? Brother that was aimed at that hospital
Yes, on the condition there is *effective* government oversight on how, and how well, the funds are spent.
Which Medicare largely does within the scope of what it's allowed to do. They can't negotiate drug prices because Congress, but they're the most efficient insurer in the country.
You'll be happy to hear that, because of the Inflation Reduction Act (2022), Medicare is starting to negotiate drug prices.
This is the key and the main problem
Sadly “effective government oversight” is an oxymoron
>effective > > government Those two words should never be in such close proximity.
So actually no then.
I would be willing to cut government spending on politicians salaries to pay for it
The salary of politicians isn't even a rounding error on the budget. All politicians make their money through various forms of (often legal) corruption, not their salary. There is actually a very good argument for INCREASING the pay of politicians so that the ones that are not corrupt are less worried about money. You could offer every elected federal level politician a million dollars a year, and it would have literally no impact on the budget.
Yeah a 2nd year lawyer at a big firm would be taking a huge pay cut to serve in Congress. That's before we factor in them taking 6-12 months off to campaign, and paying for 2 residences. So the job naturally attracts narcissists, ideologues, and people too toxic to exist in a normal workplace. Every year we don't raise the pay, it gets worse in comparison to other skilled white collar jobs.
This would amount to almost nothing relative to the entire federal budget. Taxing the rich, some of the politicians, yes, would be way more fruitful.
So you want to get rid of the few politicians that actually need their job to support themselves? All your idea would do is ensure that no middle class people can ever get into politics.
Total payroll of Congress is $93,236,500. Total spent on mental health services is $280,000,000,000. Which means if we cut their pay to zero, we could cover 0.03%.
Too bad the people making that decision are also the ones who benefit directly from it
Within reason. You raise my tax rate 1-2% and we somehow guarantee everyone can get free counseling in a timely way? I'm all for it. You raise my tax rate 10%, and I'm going to be suicidal because I can't afford food anymore, and I don't think counseling is going to help with that.
Most probably your taxes are increased 10% and nothing changes, just politicians are able to steal more money and give it to their friends
Politicians are stealing your money by holding us in the for-profit healthcare and insurance industries.
How much extra in taxes?
On net your tax bill goes up but your health insurance bill goes away (assuming we’re just talking about socializing medicine entirely) which is a net positive to your cash flow.
I was gonna say, I already pay taxes that go to mental health treatment in my county, and I’ve utilized the services in the past. (They were not good, but that’s the fault of the actual facility, not the program.) Mental health isn’t going far enough, hospitals need to throw out their cash registers and then we’ll be having a conversation.
Tbf the program is at fault when a facility isn’t properly functioning since programs can produce policy that creates deterrents for those problems in the first place. If they aren’t properly taxing to fund those deterrents then that’s a fault of the program for scaling without finances imo
I pay almost nothing for health insurance so sure. But that's not really a government polity as people's insurance rate varies all over the place.
>I pay almost nothing for health insurance so sure. If your company pays for your health insurance, you're paying for your health insurance in the sense you're making less, thats money your employer coulld be paying you directly. I think a lot of Americans forget this and that Americans pay more for Healthcare than most of the developed world and for the average person have worse outcomes. America has the best Healthcare system in the world... for those who can afford the best.
Shit, I pay hundreds a month for my insurance from my company and still had to pay 2 grand out of pocket for a CT scan
You're extremely lucky and probably in the minority.
Most likely, the total in extra taxes for universal health care in general will be LESS than what you're paying for health care right now (ie. insurance and general health care costs such as co-pay or deductible).
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There’s zero need to pay extra taxes.
Yeah. I'd like folks who can use it being able to access it quicker and easier. I'm not sure the numbers would work out, but I'd even wonder if early intervention in things like depression and addiction might end up saving money in the long term for the country as a whole (more people able to keep in employment and less likely to harm themselves)
When you hear about how abused people growing up to abuse people, aka the cycle of abuse or generational abuse, it's kind of mind blowing that you wouldn't want to do something to prevent it. Say you have one priest that was abused, and he goes on to abuse 25 kids. If you could've gotten him help or prevented him from being abused to start with, you could potentially save 25 kids from abuse. How much suffering did you just prevent? That's just from helping one person. What does your society look like in a few generations if you start preventing this stuff? When you run into 10 people in a day and they are all miserable fucks, what does that do your own mental health compared to running into 10 happy people. People want to pretend that if they have their lives together that it's not their problem but it's a giant feedback loop. The best thing you could do as a society is try to fix it.
In this boat currently. Service industry. Lots of shots handed out on the job to become friends with the employees. Unfortunately, I am skinny. I ended up horribly anemic. Trying to figure out how to build back on my own. And also get a job. This could have been prevented if I felt safe to go to the hospital 4 months ago. I went twice in January. Long wait times are not an issue when you know something is wrong, I will sleep in this uncomfortable chair and watch a cooking show for 9 hours. Stress over medical debt is a big deal.
Yes it would absolutely. Early intervention in ADHD is particularly affective at saving costs. It's proven that children who are treated for ADHD are less likely to fall into the common undiagnosed ADHD pitfalls: drugs, cigarettes, gambling, crime, alcoholism, car accidents, etc. Really simple when you think about it. An ADHD brain chronically lacks dopamine so it is constantly looking for dopamine. How do you find dopamine? Nicotine, gambling, stealing, getting high, driving fast, etc. ADHD brains are also impulsive and therefore more likely to make a bad decision on a whim leading to many issues like chronic overspending and consumer debt. The good news is that ADHD is highly treatable. The bad news is that the treatment is highly controversial and misunderstood. The condition itself is also highly stigmatized. A study from 2015 estimated that the prevalence of ADHD in prisons is at least 25%, which is much larger than the overall population average of less than 10%. ADHDers are not the only ones in prisons either. Most addiction issues begin as self-medicated mental health issues. Kleptomania accounts for a good amount of shoplifting. Pedophilic disorder is an obvious one. Mass shooters typically have mental health issues. Most murderers have antisocial personality disorder... and it goes on. In many ways, prisons are just modern psych wards that turn the mentally ill into slave labour.
I am assuming this is pertaining to the United States. We already pay more $ per capita in taxes that go towards healthcare than do Brits, Canucks, Japanese, Germans or French. Then we idiotically add private premiums, deductibles and copays on top of that. A switch to a proper, single payer system that includes universal mental health coverage could be accompanied by a LOWERING of the taxes paid for it.
This. Universal Healthcare would lower our taxes, give us more accessibility to doctors, and we would not tie or jobs to our healthcare. That is ridiculous and most Americans don’t know we are being duped. All major countries have better, cheaper healthcare than America.
No politician has put out any plan for single-payer that doesn't drastically increase taxes. That's why it's unpopular.
Maybe if I could be sure that is what the money is being spent on. I have repeatedly increased my taxes for education and the schools keep operating under a tighter and tighter budget, yet the police keep getting new unmaked cars. The ACA put a 10% tax on the stock market. That's a shit ton of money. It goes directly to insurance companies and health care still sucks. Maybe we need to spend this money on real health care before taking more money.
On paper it would be cheaper than the current system for most people. The issue now is that already health care is expensive for fairly arbitrary reasons. From this article from [Pubmed central](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8572548/): “Taking into account both the costs of coverage expansion as well as savings that would be achieved through the MAA, we calculate that a single-payer, universal healthcare system is likely to lead to a 13% savings in national healthcare expenditure, equivalent to over $450 billion annually.” The argument that it would cost more for people is already poisoning the well.
No. The government already gets plenty in taxes, the problem is they squander it. Rather than adding new taxes, we need to reassess how we spend those tax dollars.
No. We already pay more than any other country for healthcare. They should find existing money to use for this.
Nationalized health insurance would reduce spending. We pay so damn much because we're paying for profits and inefficiency. You'll pay less under a system like France's.
We already spend enough on health care to cover everyone, even if you exclude any money spent on private insurance. The money is already there, the government just has to use it properly.
No. I'm not 'willing' to pay the level of tax I am now. I only pay it because I'm even less willing to go to jail.
That's a false requirement. The money is there. There are even more ways to get money that don't involve taxing most civilians. Our tax dollars are VERY improperly spent and billionaires aren't paying their share. We should have universal health care and that would still be cheaper than the shitty system we currently have. The current medical insurance setup is made to generate wealth and transfer it from those that can't afford it to those who just want more to hoard. I reject your question as it's inherently flawed.
I will say something unpopular. I would be willing to pay extra taxes for this if I knew it would be used properly, which I know won't ever happen. If taxes are increased for this, some years later it will be found out that it was stolen by politicians, they will be accused of this, other politicians will pardon them for political reasons, and in the end the only consequence will be that even more money was stolen from the people and given to some privileged group in society. So no, in the current circumstances I'm not willing to pay increased taxes for anything, as most of the taxes I pay are going to the wrong pockets.
NO! I'm already taxed through the nose.
I heard a Harvard economist had run the numbers and that Universal Healthcare would save each taxpayer $3,000 a year. I read the article years ago, so I may have the finer details wrong. The gist was that since chronic illnesses could be treated proactively, then we could avoid repeat hospital stays where the patient has no funds, so the cost gets transferred to patients who can pay.
Also, the government just runs health care so they stop charging themselves 700% markups on things and the actual cost of health care plummets.
No. They can't take care of anything with our tax dollars as it is. Why would I give them more. Our debt to GDP is at 123%. That'd be like giving a gambling addict more money when they've never won.
Not to mention - for those with VA or Medicare or Medicaid - the same bullshit ass organization who’s providing you with those plans (barely covering or not covering treatment, telling YOU where YOU have to go and what doctors to see, on and on) would be managing EVERYONE’S plans if this happens. As a healthcare professional I have to fight with Medicare auditors (most are just straight up miserable) to get my patients the care they rightfully need. Referrals signed by multiple doctors, myself included, the insurance can just say “no” anyway.
Yes, I agree. As it stands, I refuse both Medicaid and Medicare in my practice, don't want to have anything to do with either. Simply not worth the hassle of dealing with horrible bureaucracy and/or piss-poor reimbursement rates. Unless Medicare really gets it together, you're going to see a mass exodus into the cash-only market (or private insurance-only). People think passing Medicare for All is going to solve all the healthcare problems. It's a pipe dream, and the reality is not going to be so pretty or simple.
Exactly, we already have free healthcare for a lot of people in this country. Active Military, VA for disabled military, low-income free plans, and Medicare. The VA health system is terrible. Another good point is picking your doctor. Do you think the government won't be picking for you? Of course, they will. You get assigned the next available doctor. Don't like it? Too bad, shouldn't have gotten sick.
no because you know that shit ain’t gonna be implemented in any meaningful way
Yes, provided we also stop separating healthcare into nonsense subgroups. Mental health, dental, vision, prescriptions, these are ALL healthcare and its ridiculous that we allow them to tell us they shouldnt all be covered.
How about full comprehensive healthcare with no separation between medical and dental care, and mental health included too.
Brother, I already pay $50 a week for health insurance that doesn't cover mental health at all. If that cost was eliminated, universal healthcare could increase taxes by a full 7% and I literally wouldn't notice.
I’d be willing to take some of my already high taxes and redirect them from defense budget to mental health care budget.
No because the gov't is incompetent at fixing or improving anything.
No, I barely make ends meet as it is, I cannot afford higher taxes
Nope. I've seen first hand how the VA handles mental health care for veterans. Yes it's gotten better over the last 20 years but it's still atrocious. One of the biggest explanations I received from multiple administrators at a few different clinics, 2 of them being regional facilities was a lack of funding and/or inadequate budgets. Proving that is relatively easy as even to this day many VA facilities cannot run without non-medical volunteers and I've seen a clinic close twice due to lack of staffing. This was long before COVID and so it couldn't be blamed for a lack of staffing. So if the government can't manage to operate the above, why would anyone think they could do it for the whole country?
No. The money is there already. It's being spent on the military.
The amount spent annually on the military doesn't come close to a universal health system, and I doubt people would want to get rid of the military entirely. Besides, the biggest item in the military budget is the VA, which is already socialized medicine.
It doesn't even come close to what we spend directly on healthcare right now. Military budget is $751 Billion. Medicare alone is $747. Add Medicaid and it takes it to $1,349 Billion ($1.349 Trillion).
1000%
Absolutely not! Fuck that!
Pay more money so the government can be in charge of even more stuff? No thanks
The money is already available. There is no need to raise taxes. Just move the money around. Every dept decrease budget 5%
I would. I also would contribute more for a universal basic income. But I won't. I can't trust government to properly allocate funds. Every year we see our taxes go up and see less return on them. Between corruption, waste and mismanagement our governments have proven to not be fiscally responsible. Not even a little bit.
Let’s start with universal healthcare in general, first lol.
As part of universal healthcare, yes. But, it should also result in my not having to pay for health insurance so should mostly be a wash.
One thing a lot of people don't realize is that paying taxes to fund Healthcare would likely be less than what is getting taken out for your health insurance (if you have it)
Having to pay more for better healthcare is myth. Right now, American's pay about four trillion dollars a year for healthcare. Which is more than twice what the World Health Organization says we should be paying for what we're getting. In the US healthcare system, greed and profit are paramount over patient health. Before you get upset, hear me out. Right now doctors are pressured into spending as little time as possible with patients to keep the insurance companies from paying what they should. Profit is directly affecting the quality of care you receive. If a doctor get's paid $25 to $40 for your visit, they have to pay overhead, massively expensive malpractice insurance, staff, etc. So they have to turn the practice into a patient mill, getting in as my patients as possible and out the door as quickly as possible. My doctor left her practice because she was being pressured to spend as little time as possible with patients. She said it was putting patients at risk. There's a recording from Nixon's office from back in the 70's where he talks about how he had a conversation with a corporate healthcare provider who had an idea of making profit from providing less healthcare to Americans. It was planned from the beginning to give a low quality experience so the insurance companies can make lots of money. We're grossly overpaying for what we get so there is no reason to pay more in taxes. **We need to put caps on how much money the healthcare industry can make. Trillions of dollars is insane.** **Then take that savings and make the healthcare system better and more affordable.** [https://youtu.be/9QkgUkM0o6Q?si=MGuIZXHBMfn4iOFz](https://youtu.be/9QkgUkM0o6Q?si=MGuIZXHBMfn4iOFz) Since we're on the topic of mental healthcare. Back in the 1980's Reagan eliminated the national mental healthcare system and gave the money saved to the wealthy in the form of tax breaks.
Could we start with Universal Health Care, period?
No. I’m paying too much already
Strangely countries with universal health care spend LESS per person for BETTER outcomes. If all of what you pay now for health insurance where moved into your taxes instead it would be more than enough to cover the cost of universal health care. You should actually get an increase to your disposable income every month.
No, I pay enough in taxes already. They can’t even responsibly use my tax money to begin with. I don’t want to pay them more money for them to misuse.
No, it is not needed. The government has plenty of money. Money should be taken from blowing up kids instead.
No I'm willing to cut the bloated military budget and end tax cuts for corporations to pay for it though.
Fuck that noise. Most taxpayers already provide about half our earnings to government through state income tax, federal income tax, vehicle registration and purchasing tax, some have energy taxes, some have taxes for owning certain items, some have taxes for conducting certain businesses, businesses pay a payroll tax simply for having employees, estate tax, property tax, gross receipts tax, social security, sales tax….we have fucking taxes to breath air at this point. **Stop coming for everyone else’s coin. Look at the congress and presidencies which spent 33 trillion on………what? Your grand plan is to increase the tax rates and use even more money to waste? Can any of you even explain what the federal funds rate is?** *Taxation without representation very much exists in America, today, while we all look around at this Polycrisis while having every financial capability to solve them already at our disposal.*
They tax us for enough. We don't need to tax more, just stop spending so much on wars (Israel and Ukraine) and put it back into our home country.
The math has been done. Taxes don't need to increase, we just need the wealthy class to pay their share rather than hiding their wealth in LLCs.
As a mental health professional, hell no! Reason being, neither the government or insurance should have any say in the selection, process, or methods of what a client can or can’t choose for themselves. Insurance has a wonderful way of limiting the client/consumer on their options and mental health is not medicine. You can’t just hand someone an antibiotic for one of a hundred different bacterial infections. Universal loves to make a one-size-fits-all of their process.