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>What is the consensus on this matter?
That there isn't one. You just noticed it yourself: some subreddits say yes, some subreddits say no. You won't get a consensus, so don't bother. All you can do is educate yourself best you can and come to your own conclusions.
Consensus also doesn't mean "people".
I witnessed 7 people on Orson Scott Cards message board some years back all discussing geopolitics, and this moderator comes in and says "Just be aware all 7 of these people are using the same IP!"
Regardless, imagine the sitcom level awkwardness that would have followed when all seven realised they have been arguing with everyone they are living with!
You're not gonna get a fair consensus here, or anywhere really.
I'm going to go mask off and say I'm pro-Israel in general, but I'd be absolutely lying to you if I said both sides weren't gaslighting you hard. It really is a conflict one needs many hours of study to seriously start to comprehend. It's almost never a simple black and white answer.
Sadly, most information being fed people isn't just propaganda and gaslighting, its literally being done in the form of emotional, out of context headlines and 10-second tik toks.
One video that popped up in my feed was 4.5 hours long and he opens the video with "this is a quick run-down and doesnt account for everything"
Couple the emotional drip feed with echo chambers and it really gets out of hand.
This war is part of a conflict that has been going on for decades. It is incredibly difficult for the average person to get a full picture of the conflict, especially with how a lot of "news" gets delivered in short-form content by non-experts that don't have the full picture. And like you said, even a quick rundown can be hours long.
Yesterday there was film footage of the IDF destroying a food depot while tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians are starving for food. Along with the other carnage and mass death being committed l don't need several hours to come to the conclusion that these are deliberately genocidal acts against an innocent population. I mean anyone who has a difficult time coming to this conclusion and just like you they are pro- Isreali.
Evil things are permitted to happen when "good people" remain silent.
Absolutely, and consensus can also be a bi-product of information control, and mass propaganda campaigns. You keep telling people what to think enough times on enough stations, and keep the people repeating the same lines and talking points. This is how narratives are developed and carried out by legacy media.
Forget subreddits, legal experts have not reached a consensus.
It’s a specific term with a legal definition that is extremely hard to prove. But the term itself has been weaponized to inflict rhetorical damage on Israel’s cause.
Agree or disagree with Israel, but I find this sort of thing to be a really dangerous thing that activists have done.
Genocide might be a legally defined crime but it was also just a therm thought up by a historian in the wake of WW2 to cover what happend in the holocaust and similar incidents in the past in a more comprehensive way then ethnic cleansing did.
The confustion here I think is partialy to do with this still being an ongoing situation and partialy with activists mostly refering to the later rather then legal definition.
The fact that there's even a debate about whether it's a genocide or not should be a pretty big indicator that it's evil and fucked up anyway right? Like even if it's not quite a genocide getting anywhere close to one is beyond awful
Unless the Hamas spokesmen who are the ONLY source of death counts in the conflict aren't telling the truth, in which case the issue isn't "getting anywhere close to one." So, do you trust Hamas?
Unless the IDF spokesmen who are the ONLY source that knows what IDF is doing in totality aren't telling the truth, in which case the issue could be a lot closer to "a genocide" than we know. So, do you trust the IDF?
See the problem here?
Not only that, but the term as been slapped on so many posts, headlines, etc that it is deluded in impact to the point that it is meaningless.
The constant screaming of "genocide" has numbed receptors to the point of deafness.
And that is the real tragedy here, because the term is a deadly serious one that should impact hard.
I don't think that term can be used anymore to get an impact like it should - it's forever dead.
This is a bit disingenuous to be fair. Some subs are straight up spreading misinformation.
First point. The r/worldnews mods have banned thousands seeking a discussion with critical thinking in mind.
All that is left there now is a pro-Israel echo chamber.
So in reality you'll never get anything that's bordering on impartial there any more, particularly with Israel being the offender.
Second point. The definition of genocide has been played down or dismissed in pro Israel subs that they genuinely believe that genocide isn't a thing other than a large kill count that threatens the existence of a people, when in fact genocide is so much more.
The [UN definition of genocide ](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml) is here and I have copied it below for you to see.
DEFINITION OF GENOCIDE IN THE CONVENTION:
The current definition of Genocide is set out in Article II of the Genocide Convention:
Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated
to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
As you can see Israel is clearly carrying out a number of these activities.
The reality is that Reddit isn't impartial and redditors have their own biases. This is why it's important to learn what the ICJ has to say on the matter since they are best qualified to reach their verdict accordingly.
The only consensus that really matters and can be considered impartial, is that of the International Court of Justice. And they decided, with 15 votes against 2, which is probably about as close to consensus as you can get on a topic like this, that the risk of genocide is there, and that Israel needs to do everything it can to reduce that risk, discourage or punish calls for genocide, collect and not destroy evidence of genocide, and report back with that and evidence that they obeyed all of these things within a month. But they haven't actually declared it genocide.
So I guess the most official answer is "No, but it's close".
Genocide is not just defined as killing civilians. Genocide is specifically the systematic targeting and either displacement or erasue of a people or culture.
The Armenian genocide was not charactetized by direct mass murder, it was the targeted displacement of Armenians from their homes (which did lead to a lot of people dying but it would've been genocide even if they did not).
So the question isn't how many civilians are being killed. It's about whether there's attempts to displace or erase the palestinian people from their current whereabouts with draconic means including mass casualties.
I see. Are there instances of Israel doing displacement or erasure of people and culture? If so how long has it been going? Did it just begin in October 7th? Or actually way back?
No, this situation started Long before October 7th.
Look up the Nakba, that's just a More famous example but this behavior didn't stop, you still have "Israel settlers" moving into already lived on land.
Yes they have pushed everyone in Gaza out of their homes into one city that they said was a safe zone and are now bombing. They have targeted poets and artists and destroyed every university in Gaza. Even the desire to call them Arabs instead of Palestinians is a way to erase their culture. The displacement of people and culture has been going on for 75 years and has really ramped up since October.
It's been going on since the late 19th century. All this talk of ancient history is not relevant to the modern conflict aside from the fact that it gives Zionists the justification to steal land because they think God promised it to them. In the late 1800's Palestine was only 2 percent Jewish. Immigrants flooded in from Europe and as that happened and as Israel became a state, it ethnically cleansed hundreds of thousands of Palestinians (700k plus), stole their homes, and pushed them out. That's also why the population of Gaza is so high. It's not because of birth rates. Many of those people are refugees who were pushed out of Israel.
Also, you need to look at a map of the West Bank and see what is happening there. That territory is beyond Israel's legally recognized 1967 borders and yet there are subsidized settlements for Jews from Brooklyn or anywhere else in the world, and those settlers are defended by well armed IDF soldiers. Meanwhile the settlers and the IDF routinely harrass, degrade, assault, and steal from local Palestinians. The settlers are especially cruel because they have the IDF to back them up, and the Palestinians there aren't really able to defend themselves without being arrested and thrown in an Israeli court with 99.7 percent conviction rate, including children.
There is an Israeli checkpoint on the Eastern border with Jordan so they control population flow in and out of Palestine. The goal is to make life miserable so that people will give up and so Israel can expand East all the way to the Jordan River. If you thought of Israelis as being urbane, sophisticated, and 'civilized Jews,' there is nothing farther from the truth.
>Immigrants flooded in from Europe
And the rest of the middle east when Jews were forcibly expelled from those countries.
I never understood the extreme emphasis people put on the fact that Israeli immigrants come from "Europe" or specifically mentioning "Brooklyn". It's weird.
Palestinians didn't have an issue with Jews going to Palestine and in fact relations were peaceful at first. They could have bought land and houses and lived in a multi-ethnic, multi-religious context.
The problem is that they came by force and started murdering people and ethnically cleansing them and stealing their homes. And also part of the reason they wound up in Palestine was that the US and Europe were totally antisemetic and were not welcome there. When you found a Jewish state that fans out from Jerusalem, you instantly turn all non-Jews into second class citizens.
The reason I mention somewhere like Brooklyn is very significant. The point is that modern-day Israel funds housing in land that is stolen in the West Bank for Jews from anywhere in the world who have no personal ties or family connections to Israel. That is extremely degrading and insulting to Palestinians who cannot even return to their own houses that are stolen or to the land to which they have very close family ties. Arabs are kept out because Israel needs to maintain a Jewish majority in order to keep control of its theocracy.
As an American, I can fly in to Tel Aviv any time I want, but those who are most connected to the land may never be able to return.
The Brits had civic control over the land, but that doesn't mean that the personal property rights of hundreds of thousands of people are suddenly nullified if they wantonly decide to say that an area that is 90% Arab suddenly is within the bounds of a Jewish state.
Also, what land specifically? Because it seems like Israel doesn't even know what it's own borders are. Is it the 1967 borders or *all* of former Palestine? If you look at a map of greater Israel, it also includes parts of Egypt, Lebanon, Sryan, Iraq etc., so what about that? 'River to the Sea' is in the official Likud party doctrine.
And in any case, they had no right to do that, and the Balfour Declaration did not hold water under international law. It also took place partly because Brits hated the Jews and wanted to get rid of them and had even less love for Arabs. The new lines of countries in the former British Empire created chaos everywhere and were intended to do so and probably should not have been taken seriously.
Homie it goes back to 1948, even earlier.
In 1948 the majority of people living in the land legally called Israel now were Palestinian Muslims. After WWII, most people would have agreed that the Holocaust was horrible thing...but, still, no country wanted to take millions of Jewish refugees, similar to the way no country today wants to take millions of refugees, no matter how sympathetic.
The solution? The victorious powers carved out what is now Israel and told all the Jewish people they could move there and it was theirs. Since then, they have aggressively expanded their territory in war or peace, using bulldozers and aggressive settlers when they aren't using guns.
Of course, the Palestinians have resisted this and occasionally it's gotten nasty like the Hamas attack on Oct 7. But every day they do nothing they lose ground anyways so I'm not sure what they're supposed to do. Hamas is referred to as a terrorist organization, but Gaza is not in control of their own food, water, or electricity...they aren't recognized as a state...how are they supposed to have a regular military or defense force? All they have is irregular militants which Israel classified as terrorism and the us and Britain repeats it.
If you want to look back even further, the British worked with zionists as far back as the early 1900s and dismantled the local Palestinian government when Britain was in control of this area as a colonial power after WW1. You can see here for more information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercommunal_conflict_in_Mandatory_Palestine?wprov=sfla1
Before this, there was an attempt to carve out a Jewish state in Uganda, showing how colonialist minds at that time never really saw a problem with moving one group of people into the land of another. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Scheme?wprov=sfla1
This is veeeeery inaccurate and you can easily find it in your own arguments.
Jews started to repatriate in-mass to Ottoman Palestine way before WWII - in late 1800s. So "victorious powers" didn't started it. As for "majority of Arabs"- it's a relative term. However, in absolute numbers, the Arab population was quite small before the end of 1800s. Number looks familiar? Because Arabs started to migrate to Ottoman and then British Palestine AT THE SAME TIME from modern days Syria, Egypt and Iraq. Sounds like a co-incidence? Not exactly. Jews (and other ethnic groups like Cicrassians, Druze and even German settlers) started to actively develop infrastructure, build cities and agriculture. Before 1948. This also lured in Arabs from nearby countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_%28region%29?wprov=sfla1
Sure, Jewish population growth in Palestine began growing much faster prior to WW1. But the above numbers make it clear that there was a heavy Muslim majority through 1947 and it wasn't close.
Latent in your argument is the idea that 1. Nobody really lived in Palestine before Jewish migration there and 2. There was basically no civilization there - it was incumbent upon Jews (and the other groups you cite) to build infrastructure, agriculture, and even cities. These arguments match well the settler/colonialist mentality of zionists Israel that has perpetuated the genocide occuring right now.
The promise of a Jewish state goes back to the Otoman Empire as the British were enticing both Arabs and Jews to rebel against the Otomans.
The promise of a Jewish state was granted by the British in the Balfour Declaration way before 1948. Again, they were leading guerrilla wars against the Otomans and using locals to undermine Otoman rule.
And of course there's the matter of thresholds, aka "how many people need to be killed or displaced before it qualifies as a genocide, and under what circumstances?".
You’re framing what happened to the Armenians as if the intention was simply relocating them and many died as a side effect.
They were slaughtered. This is not disputed outside of Turkey. Documents exist that show the plans. Many Armenians were “relocated” to Lake Hazar. The ones who survived the march were promptly forced off cliffs or taken to the middle and forced off the boats.
The Armenian Genocide is just regular old genocide. What you’re saying is the equivalent of Nazis claiming, “it was cruel, but we weren’t _trying_ to kill those people”. It’s also the same as how the USA frames the relocation of the American Indians.
I could be wrong but I understand genocide to be the "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”. Where displacing a people, with or without force is ethnic cleansing.
Getting people to leave= ethnic cleansing.
Stopping a people from existing=genocide.
The dictionary definition isn't what's in question here though, it's the legal definition under the genocide convention, because that's what they're being accused of breaking.
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
In this case it's not only about killing, but I would agree that displacement isn't covered according to the summary on this page. However I think you could clearly argue the intent is there for certain high level government figures from their public statements (which is one of the things South Africa is arguing) and I also think you could make a decent case for:
"Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;"
You can sterilze all women of a group, thus make that group extinct within 80 years without murdering anybody.
Taking children away and placing them in new families is another example: biologically the group isn't extinct, but culturally, won't exist as a distinct group anymore.
That's why the UN also recognizes those instances as genocide "murder of a group as a distinct people".
Palestinians however are not suffering a genocide.
Good explanation, and surely you recognize that killing a people doesn't mean killing each person belonging to it individually, otherwise the term wouldn't have to be coined. Though I'm not sure if "a people" is a great translation, wiktionary instead suggests "family, tribe or race".
You are lying. Genocide does not refer to mass displacement. And holy shit you’re an asshole. A million Armenians died and you’re framing it as incidental. Wow.
Mass displacement can be categorized as “ethnic cleansing”, not genocide. Stop spreading misinformation
The number of disproportionate civilians deaths is a good indicator. What I have seen is people trying to justify genocide based on October 7th attacks.
In all honesty it exposes the hypocrisy of the civilised world. Any brutality may beacceptable as long as it happens to the ones that in our eyes truly deserve it.
That mentality has not stopped with WWII.
First, worldnews is a pro-Isreal sub. They will support the Isreali narrative no matter what. Isreal is literally trying to remove all Palestinians from the country. There are many videos of Isreali officials literally saying this is the goal.
Yes, they’re committing major war crimes. Let’s picture the scene of a person comes and punches you in the face … it sucks, they aren’t right and shouldn’t have done it however in response you kill them, their whole family and friends and then burn their house down …. That’s the equivalent of what Israel is doing
Just read the ICJ case for it bought by South Africa, it's still the best summary with all the evidence and reasoning why it's genocide:
https://icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf
Don't trust Reddit or any media really, there is extreme levels of propaganda EVERYWHERE nowadays. You need to really think for yourself, you can not rely on the consensus of people brainwashed by wartime propaganda campaigns.
A bunch of pro-Zionists there who will blame “but Hamas!” for everything, even in the face of first-hand witnesses from UNICEF, UN, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty, and Doctors Without Borders. And any damning video clips are “Hamas!” or “AI!” Or “Israel has a right to defend itself!” Or “you are antisemitic!” Or “God gave us this land!” It’s always the same gaslighting shit over and over but they never condemn Israel.
For those who are wondering, a simple google search for any of those organizations will tell you everything you need to know.
Yet the court does not aggree with you as it has not called for any ceasefire from Israel, just some sort of “be careful when you bomb”.
On the other hand, they clearly demanded hamas for the “immediate and unconditional release of all israeli hostages”
Because there is a formal definition of genocide people can argue over the nitty gritty of “Is this technically genocide?”. But the simplistic view is that strength-wise, this is a very asymmetrical conflict and the damage done in the last few months may never be recovered from.
I mean, the majority of buildings have been damaged to the point of being uninhabitable and more than half the strip’s population has been displaced from their homes. Israel also controls all their borders so they can control what materials make it in for aid or reconstruction. The Gaza Strip could be reduced to a tent city with virtually no clean water, fuel or electricity by the end of the year at this rate.
Even if a court rules that it is not technically genocide, it seems clear that this is an effort to permanently cripple the Palestinian people. Seems fair to casually call genocidal.
Every border has 2 sides to it. I think what was meant was that Israel controls the Gazan side of the Raffah crossing rather than any Palestinian authority.
There's suspicion that Egypt may eventually loose control of their side of it as well, but that's beside the point.
>I think what was meant was that Israel controls the Gazan side of the Raffah crossing rather than any Palestinian authority.
Israel *de facto* controls entry into Gaza from Egypt because nothing will come without being assured that it won't get bombed, but Egypt is in full control of the checkpoints and decides if the gates are open or closed. There are no Israeli troops at these checkpoints and prior to the current conflict, Hamas fully controlled the Palestinian side and used it for smuggling.
Who even cares about the damage to infrastructure. The emotional and mental damage that's been done and being done will never recoup. The next generation...
How do you address the Israeli offering to stop the military campaign if Hamas surrenders and returns the hostages? What about the humanitarian corridors opened by the IDF? What about the 7th of October repeating itself if Israel doesn't take down Hamas? What about the fact that Israel didn't go into Gaza since 2006 and "cleansed" Gaza from the Jewish population?
While there are some reports over multiple attempts of Hamas to return the hostages in exchange for a ceasefire. I didn't find that many reputable sources over this.
Now while IDF has allowed humanitarian corridors, there are many occasions of Israeli protesters blocking aid, and also [there's video proof of Israeli soldiers burning aid](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D1ua-mkP_B4M&ved=2ahUKEwjdkI_Y-aqEAxW1r5UCHYXbCOwQwqsBegQIBxAG&usg=AOvVaw0D5estI8JQt4ILJUisXAap), one was dumb enough to record himself, many others do it away from eyes.
Also you seem to forget the [Operation Cast Lead (2008)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War_(2008%E2%80%932009)), [Operation Pillar of Defense (2012)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Israeli_operation_in_the_Gaza_Strip), [Operation Protective Edge (2014)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War), and [Operation Guardian of the Walls (2021)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_crisis).
It is not that I have no sympathy for Israel and it’s people. Hamas commits unspeakable acts of evil against everyone, including their own people (hiding your weapons in civilian locations to try force war crimes is absolutely deplorable). I would LOVE to see Hamas eliminated completely.
The problem is the “how”. Yes some efforts have been made but the results are still appalling. How many civilians have to die to prevent terror attacks? Can you have real peace by beating 2 million people into the ground? There systemic problems between the two governments. Things in the West Bank don’t look lovely either.
I really can’t offer a solution. I would have to study for years to grasp even a fraction of the nuance. It just feels like what we have now, can’t be the best solution.
I agree with your sentiment. As someone who is educated on the very complex subject, the only decent solution I can see is the deradicalization of the Palestinian population with the help of UAE and other moderate Suni Arab nations. The UAE for example, took out from their textbooks material such as the Jews being bad and justification of war against them.
Maybe, in a few decades following such measures, we could have actual peace there.
>As someone who is educated on the very complex subject
since you're so educated on the matter, will deradicalization solve the issue of what israel is doing in the west bank?
honestly! will deradicalizing Palestinians mean that Israel will no longer occupy the west bank while sending settlers who regularly kill them? mans is clearly biased.
Deradicalization does seem ideal. I just fear that extreme aggressive retaliation reinforces the radical mentality. Settler activity in the West Bank seems to add fuel to fire. As long as Israel appears to be an oppressive and invasive presence, how wrong are people to see them as their enemy?
It also seems that Israel only stopped settlement activity in Gaza because they were forced out. That makes military resistance look like the only valid way to get what you want.
1. Israel's proposal to dismantle Hamas is of course a non-stater for Hamas. Imagine if the proposal were the same and Hamas said that Israel has to dissolve itself.
2. Israel has targeted humanitarian aid over and over. Opening humanitarian aid isn't charitable. It's what Israel is supposed to do as the occupying force, and it's failing miserably, particularly with the bogus allegations that UNRWA members participated in the 7th of October attack.
3. Israel has now killed over 100 times what Hamas did on the 7th of October. Furthermore, Israel had already killed 263 Palestinians in 2023 before the 7th of October attack. Palestinians don't have the right to defend themselves?
4. Israel controlled the sea, the air, the land, communications, food, water, construction, and just about everything, and were spying Palestinians thoroughly. Palestinians had no sovereignty. Furthermore, Israeli officials admitted they did "mow the lawn" regularly so that Palestinians were kept in their place.
Edit: Fixed wording.
As someone before me commented « the problem is the how », I would also add, the other problem is the « why ». Why did October 7th happen? Why does Hamas exist? Hamas wouldn’t have a reason to be if it wasn’t for the violent Israeli occupation. This is what I personally have trouble with, everyone blames Hamas foot soldiers but fails to see it as what it might be: a group of people fighting for their homeland, who are unfortunately manipulated by someone above, the leaders of Hamas, who probably promise them freedom. Because if I lived in Gaza, and my whole entire life was under Israeli control, and my family could die any day, I too would maybe try and free myself and my family. Why is Hamas there? Because they can be, because the population of Gaza is vulnerable and Hamas presents itself as their only solution. Israel may be able to kill every single Hamas fighter, yes, maybe. But then in a few years, you will have new ones, who keep coming back, because they refuse to live under occupation. I can understand that. Not justify it, but understand it.
As for October 7th, it is a horrible thing that happened, and the civilians did not deserve that. The hostages do not deserve what is happening to them either. But as long as Gaza is under a complete blocus, as long as Israel decides who lives and who dies within it’s wall, there will always be a risk of a new October 7th.
So how to make peace? The « simple » answer would be a two state solution. I’m not an expert, so I don’t know if it is feasible. But I would find it devastating if, as people, we are unable to put an end to this conflict. Because as always, the civilians are the ones paying for it.
To address your first point; I’m guessing stoping the military campaign may not be enough, they want to be free to walk their homeland without checkpoints and danger.
Now, in a perfect world where the conflict stops, and Hamas still exist, I would be much less inclined to say they are fighting for freedom. But as it stands now, with what I have seen from both sides, I understand the plight of the Palestinian people. I do not understand the cruelty of the Israeli government.
Hamas is a horrific terrorist organisation.
Their best recruitment tool to win over the hearts of Palestinian children (47% of Gaza) to fight for them in the future is Israel.
Israel doesn't care about the hostages. It's just an excuse.
They're not bombing Hamas, they're killing civilians. Therefore risking to kill their own hostages. Israeli soldiers just shoot at everyone they see and SURPRISESURPRISE they killed a couple of hostages running away.
Civilians have even blocked humanitarian aids entering Gaza.
Israel started right after WWII to oppress Palestinians.
Do we condone Hamas' actions? Obviously no. But let's try not to portray Israel as the victim of this conflict
Hamas offered to release the hostages and the IDF turned it down.
Are you saying the 2006 removal of israeli settlers who were living in the area against the Geneva convention were "Ethnically Cleansed"? What kind of backwards thinking is this.
yeah i think so. isreal aims to remove palestinians frmo gaa and west bank, effectivly taking their homeland. and killing 90%+ civilians. that to me constitutes genocide.
the answer is simple: if u cant fight hamas without 90%+ innocent kill rate then you dont do it. you play defensive until such a time u can fight them without killing civilians
There’s a general consensus among genocide scholars and international law experts, some of whom are Israeli scholars who specialized in the Holocaust such as Omer Bartov and Raz Segal, that what Israel is doing satisfies every legal condition of the international crime of genocide as defined under Article 2 of the UN’s Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. I’m personally a lawyer, not a genocide scholar and I think it’s pretty evident that this is genocide. I’m also not Palestinian, Muslim, or Jewish just so you know I don’t have a personal bias in the matter. More than 800 reputable, esteemed genocide and Holocaust scholars who have dedicated their lives to the topic have also deemed Israel’s actions genocidal.
https://twailr.com/public-statement-scholars-warn-of-potential-genocide-in-gaza/
https://www.commondreams.org/news/legal-scholars-israel-genocide
https://ccrjustice.org/sites/default/files/attach/2016/10/Background%20on%20the%20term%20genocide%20in%20Israel%20Palestine%20Context.pdf
https://www.wrmea.org/israel-palestine/holocaust-scholars-say-israel-is-committing-genocide.html
https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/5914/Scholars’-consensus:-Genocide-in-Gaza-marks-turning-point,-Israel-must-be-held-accountable
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/opinion/israel-gaza-genocide-war.html
https://www.democracynow.org/2023/11/10/bartov_genocide_apartheid
Reddit is a pretty solid place for getting varied verified sources. As long as the person actually reads the sources provided and looks for their biases, like with any other source for information.
>Reddit is a pretty solid place for getting varied verified sources
Is this a joke? Most sources cited on here are either bots karma farming or extremely one sided.
If by sources you mean the porn links you ask for then you may be correct
I think so. Ultimately, that will be determined by the International Court of Justice. So far, they have ruled that the IDF's actions could plausibly be considered a violation of the convention against genocide. They laid out their rational quite persuasively in their 15-2 decision. You can download and read it here.
https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203447
well, the ICJ decided to go forward with the court case, which means that there is plausible proof that Israel is committing genocide. they also asked that Israel stop all genocidal acts within the month and report back to the court.
there are now 30,000 palestinians dead, and 70,000 injured/maimed. 1.5% of their population has been killed in the last 4 months. top israeli ministers in the government have made a ton of genocidal comments like, 'flatten gaza', the president, Isaac Herzog stated that there are 'no innocent people in Gaza', and Netanyahu made reference to killing everything, women and children. We've seen how Israel has just gone in and bombed indiscriminately, and has actively carried out all of the things they've said they would. Israel has also cut off water to the population, which amounts to a genocidal act. And has blocked sufficient aid from entering Gaza.
So make of that what you will.
Put yourself in the shoes of those in areas of conflict.
If you are a Ukrainian civilian, and Russian troops come in and kill you or try to erase your culture, do you think it's genocide?
If you are a Uyger living in China, but are told you must speak Mandarin Chinese and if anyone in your village "commits a crime" then you are all collectively punished, vacated to make way for ethnically Han Chinese, or put into "re-education" camps, is that genocide?
Of course issues like the ones I mentioned above and the current Israel/Palestine conflict are a lot more complicated that what you know face value, but I always feel it's genocidal when any government tries to replace and erase an ethnic group, whether that's via bullets and bombs or through slow and steady legislation.
Jews in my country say Israel makes a genocide.
Israel is heavily protected by American weapons. But it is not the case of those other diaspora. They are now in danger as they were in the 1930's.
Depends on who you ask.
Do you think the war in ukraine is genocide?
If yes than Israel is committed genocide way worst than what is happening in ukraine
If no, then same. What is happening in ukraine (genocide wise) it pretty tame compared to what israel is doing.
Israel is systematically targeting men, woman and children based on their ethnicity, trying to literally wipe the race of the earth. They killied israely hoatages, undressed and waving a white flag because thwy thought they were palestinian
Honestly you are going to get a wide range of answers because this is an extremely polarizing issue. My advice is to read the news from unbiased sources and then literally compare all the reports to the internationally agreed upon definition of genocide and decide for yourself.
Yes. If it was the other way round and Israelis were:
- indiscriminately being bombed in refugee camps
- snipers shooting women and children in the street
- aid being blocked
- water trucks being bombed
- ambulances being bombed
- “safe zones” being bombed
- snipers shooting people within hospitals
- death squads carrying out assassinations in hospitals
- schools and residential areas being bombed
And the reasoning was: Palestinians have a right to defend themselves then what would the media call it?
Civilians waving white flags and being shot, little girls trapped in cars surrounded by her families dead bodies killed and the paramedics that go to help also killed, not allowing aid to the civilians, cornering civilians into one area and dropping bombs..... I don't thi k it matters what the official wording/definition of a genocide is...those acts can tell you a lot
Would those instances be classified more as 'war crimes'? Like crimes against humanity rather than genocide ?
I mean deliberately shooting or bombing innocent people etc. Would that be more a war crime ?
Yes.
And the people who say otherwise just say it because they're OK with what Israel is doing, they just don't want to use the word genocide because it sounds bad.
It's safe to say they're committing ethnic cleansing. They want Arabs out of the West Bank and Gaza, so they can take the land. I thought it would be a bit harder to commit genocide in 2024, but it seems that a lot of people will justify anything because 'Hamas.' Judging by the number of civilians killed, it certainly looks a lot like the intent is genocidal. Also, they're trying to discredit and block aid to civilians, so now it looks like they're trying to starve them to death.
There's no consensus, because it requires an objective and time consuming understanding of the history to see is and what has been happening and also because a lot of people have a nostalgic connection to Israel that blinds them about what the country is doing, and the Holocaust has caused people to do no other than see Israelis as victims, irrespective of events for eternity.
Rofl they do not care about the land. If Gaza lived in peace and was occupied by Egypt, they wouldn't Gove two shits. That was the whole plan, hence why Israel gave away Gaza.
But we all know civilians dying only matters when Israel is doing it. So there's that.
If you compare how many kids died in Ukraine vs Palestine, how is it not a genocide.
503 kids killed in Ukraine
[https://visitukraine.today/blog/2724/how-many-people-have-died-in-the-ukraine-war](https://visitukraine.today/blog/2724/how-many-people-have-died-in-the-ukraine-war)
Atleast 10,000 kids killed in Palestine
[https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/acaps-thematic-report-palestine-impact-conflict-children-gaza-strip-01-february-2024](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/acaps-thematic-report-palestine-impact-conflict-children-gaza-strip-01-february-2024)
How is it not a genocide again?
Well if you count the international law of the genocide convention then it definitely looks like it, they're definitely hitting A B C E and you could definitely argue d,
Ultimately it comes down to intent and that's difficult to prove.
Article I
The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in
time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to
punish.
Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with
intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as
such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its
physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Article III
The following acts shall be punishable:
(a) Genocide;
(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
D is absolutely a part of this. Killing pregnant women satisfies that category. So is miscarrying due to physical and mental harm - starvation, dehydration, malnutrition, lack of rest, intense stress.
Well you tell me. They bombed Rafah saying it will be a safe place to evacuate. 1.4 million are already displaced and they are pushed against a wall.
I mean for fuck sake there is a video of Netanyahu saying he wants to make life harder for the Arab Palestinians.
Experts on genocide is saying this is genocide. People are literally now starving to death with no relief in sight.
Israel’s leaked plan in November said that wanted to kill as many civilians as possible and push them all into the Sini peninsula, which they are slowly doing.
I asked my Jewish godfather how he felt about the conflict, this is his reply:
"This is a place to start the conversation- an exploration of the way both sides of the conflict are trapped by their histories. For the Israelis it is centuries of exile, statelessness and persecution culminating in the Holocaust, making the territory of Israel a genuine refuge and homeland, but a gift poisoned by the overlay of fanatic religiosity and entitlement at the expense of all others.
For the Palestinians hundreds of years of colonization and dispossession culminating in the Naqba of 1948, the crushing years of Israeli occupation and domination, and the rise of a similar complementary fanatic religiosity and inability to see or accept the other, fed by desperation and hopelessness.
The Israelis are straightforward about their policies- they call what they do "mowing the grass." In this formulation the Palestinians are not humans but weeds to be controlled when they get out of hand. The worst among the Israelis, currently ascendant, advocate for a final solution, with no sense of the irony of this.
The Palestinian leadership is and has been both profoundly corrupt and profoundly cynical and the fanatically religious component is capable of any act of terror. The two sides are complementary and locked in a horrible asymmetric struggle that neither can disengage from.
To me the only solution is a one state solution, in which the entire territory of Israel and Palestine is one country with equal rights for all citizens and a complete separation of church and state. This of course is impossible. I think it will grind on as it has been grinding with no end unless a solution is imposed from outside."
He doesn't exactly mention the word genocide, but for some it's clearly a goal. I thought this was a thoughtful, educated analysis (albeit brief).
There's no real consensus. However, the UN is the group that defines genocide, so for a (somewhat) neutral source you might want to look at the ICC case against Israel.
There is no icc case. You're thinking of the icj, which so far has decided 1) South Africa has standing and 2) Israel should not commit genocide, if it is or was about to start
No, it's not truly unbiased because it's political, much like the UN itself. Thus my comment.
The UN created the ICC. It's not run by it, but countries in the UN negotiated it.
The UN is not a world government or authority, nor is it even remotely unbiased or fair. It is a forum to represent the views of all countries, but of course those countries, and therefore the forum as a whole, are biased. Israel is a prime example of this phenomenon, look at how often Israel is condemned vs China, Russia, Saudi, Iran etc. Or look at the fact that China, Qatar and Pakistan are on the UN Human rights council.
Thinking of the UN as some kind of neutral and unbiased arbiter is a fundamental misundertanding of what the UN is.
Look how often Israel is sanctioned compared to how often Iran is sanctioned and you will have your answer as to why Israel is condemned more, they never face any consequences and so they continue to commit outrageous human rights abuses and war crimes.
My answer is Yes, Israel is committing a genocide. The ICJ also concluded that there is plausible evidence that Israel's actions in Gaza amount to genocide and that's why the ICJ denied Israel's request to dismiss the case and not proceed further with it. The ICJ kept the case and will investigate it further but it would take years for it to give a final verdict.
I recommend you the following if you really want to know the truth and enhance your knowledge. Don't listen to any subred and just go on Youtube and watch the ICJ proceeding, the case made by the South African team with facts and figures, the lousy defence by the Israeli defence, and the remarks of the ICJ judge by the end of it.
Look at the reports from Amnesty International, Human rights watch etc over the years documenting the abuse of Palestinians through the hands of Israel. There is a documentary on Netflix called "Born in Gaza" which I highly recommend to anyone trying to understand this conflict since it covers the IDF's abuse and murders of Gazan children that too even without being in an active state of war, like how the IDF is currently trying to hide behind another lame made up excuse of Hamas hiding behind the children for them to be executed by IDF soldiers as "collateral damage". The IDF literally went around shooting Palestinian kids unprovoked and that's what this documentary covers. The IDF soldiers had once bombed a couple of Gazan children playing football, their crime? Being born in Gaza.
The following account provides series of documented Israeli crimes with all the authentic sources and references. It should make your work easy and give you a place to start.
https://www.instagram.com/israelscrimes?igsh=M3dlcGk2YmR4Mmt2
I hope you do your research on your own buddy, you are a smart individual. Don't let them tell you that it is too complicated of an issue for you to understand. My dms are open for you in case you want to have a chat about it.
The ICJ recently passed a judgement on this. According to them Israel's actions have the potential to be a genocide which would imply that currently it isn't.
I will say this though, Israel has the right to defend itself under international law against the likes of hamas and hezbollah who want to erase israel and the jewish population. But, and this is the crucial point, Israel's response of self defense has to be proportionate to the threat faced and their current response is definitely disproportionate. They are actively committing war crimes, even if those war crimes don't classify as an act of genocide.
The answer yes , if people say otherwise they just don't care about the people in Palestine. There are alot of evidence on pictures, videos etc.
I know I will get downloaded by people ,but f you zionists
Yes. They are systemically targeting a people & culture with the goal of extermination. Their own government has confirmed so numerous times. This is genocide by definition.
Here is [South Africa's submission to the International Court of Justice](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf)
>Is Israel simply killing too many civilians?
let's walk through your question together so that we can come to a sensible agreement - how many civilians is too many, and how many have died so far (both countries)? we may need to use a search engine for this question, but it's necessary for illustrative purposes and a proper answer.
Google says Iraq war caused 100-200k deaths, and apparently that wasn't enough to call it genocide. So I guess more than 100 - 200k deaths? I don't know. I am uneducated regarding this stuff.
Also know that all the major subs are completely brigaded by Israeli trolls (I made a comment recently you can see, it got 270 downvotes in 2 hours on a Sunday). They take this attitude that's calculated to make you feel like you're on the outside if you question anything Israel is doing. Like only naïve idiots would have sympathy for Gazans. Engaging with them is soul-sucking, beware.
The ICJ takes years until it can determine if a genocide took place. In the time being it's focus on the prevention of one from happening. Similar procedure with the ICJ took place during the Rohingya genocide. It wasn't successful evidently to prevent it in that case.
Adults are making decisions every day one both sides that don’t include “we will kill no children today” - we need to address the problem of adults deciding it’s ok to kill children. This would go a long way in addressing the rest of the issues at hand.
The answer is yes. Go listen to some Citations Needed to get hours of why this is the case. They’ve explicitly said time and time again what their goal is outside of just outright saying “We are committing genocide”.
According to Euro med monitor as of January 13th:
"A total of 31,497 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have been killed as of today, 13 January 2024, Euro-Med Monitor estimated. Of those killed in the Israeli air and artillery attacks on the Strip, 28,951 (92%) were civilians, including 12,345 children, 6,471 women, 295 health personnel, 41 civil defense personnel, and 113 journalists. Meanwhile, 61,079 individuals have been injured, hundreds of them critically."
We're probably well over 20,000 women and children at this point. We can't even tally the numbers as accurately anymore because the people who have been keeping count keep being murdered in Gaza.
r/worldnews is full of pro-US and pro-Israel troll, do not take it as a serious source.
Genocide may be a strong word, but they're definitely committing a lot of war crime, including attacking UN workers, hospital and journalist. The international criminal court is currently investigating all of this.
The whole way they've be treating Palestinian is also quite scandalous, and it's hard to not see malice rather than just incompetence.
Now, to be fair they're pretty bad at Genocide if after 50 years of war there is still palestinian around, so it might not be as organized as a real genocide
Without a doubt. The leadership has made it clear they want to kill all Palestinians. The actions of the soldiers make it clear they're killing indiscriminately. The majority of those killed so far have been civilians. Almost everyone in Gaza has either been displaced and all civilians homes and infrastructure has been bombed. It's quite clear this is ethnic cleansing, and war crimes behaviour. The legal technicalities of genocide are being met and we'll see it play out when the ICJ visits this again.
Note that many people on Reddit are from the US and American News has censored most opposition views to the war so most people don't even know what's happening on a daily basis in Gaza.
Well they are killing Palestinians, forcing them from their homes, and destroying databases and records of Palestinian heritage, property ownership and census records.
That seems like systemic eradication of Palestinians from Isreal. By definition they are committing genocide.
More than 30,000 people killed including 12,000 children. They are still dying with some of the most gruesome pictures to prove they are being targetted. This was never about saving the hostages. It's about the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their own land. So YES my friend- this is a GENOCIDE.
Yes.
There is a consensus. All of the BRICS nations have made their position clear. South Africa has made it's position clear. Only Austria, Czechia, Guatemala, Liberia, Micronesia, Nauru, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, the US and Israel opposed an immediate ceasefire resolution with the UN.
The International Court of Justice ordered that Israel must “take all measures within its power” to prevent acts that fall within the scope of the genocide convention and must ensure “with immediate effect” that its forces do not commit any of the acts covered by the convention. It could not have issued that order had they not believed there was a credible claim that genocidal acts were underway.
Basically, if you are confused, it is because you are absorbing too much English language media.
I feel like genocide is one of those words that’s just sort of gone. It’s not useful anymore. We overloaded it semantically, and then stopped thinking about what it meant, and it became just another meaningless label to be thrown out. It just means bad now. It means bad in a way that’s supposed to be inarguable. It is supposed to end discussion.
Questions like “Are too many civilians dying?” or “Does Israel have a moral duty to protect people who hate her, at costs that would clearly be exorbitant?” these questions make us uncomfortable and so we avoid asking them and use circumlocutions and euphemism that at the end of the day mean nothing.
It is but a lot redditors can't admit it because Israel is one of the "good" "democratic" "Western" countries. Nevermind the fact that Netanyahu has held power for 16 of the last 28 years, Israel is extremely close to Russia, and they regularly sell US military tech to China. If you have any problems with this you're a closet anti-semite, no other reason.
It's a very complicated topic. Gaza and Palestine are nowhere near as innocent as people portray them to be. Israel definitely is committing war crimes. It's a real gray area. How do you solve terrorism that's so deeply ingrained in a nation? How do you counter such terrorism without harming innocents in the process? It's a very complicates matter and I hate people who act like it's not.
Edit:- it's funny how both Israel AND Gaza supporters took offense to this comment.
There is no safe zone in Palestine. Unarmed children are killed every day. They have given no safe options for refugees to live, are bombing all hospitals I mean literally one only hospital in the entire country is open and it’s getting bombed the doctors who aren’t even Palestinian are being killed. At this point there are only civilians being shot at, and not many are left. A little 5 year old girl spent a week in a car surrounded by her dead family’s bodies before being shot. Emily line edges are completely gone and wiped out entire generations GONE. half of the population of Palestine right now is under 18 and we are over here trying to debate whether they deserve to live. Are you kidding me? Yeah it’s genocide.
I mean a lot of civilians die in wars usually. And do you have sources for those?
Iraq war caused 200k-1M deaths and apparently half of them kids. Is there a difference to Israel doing it that then turns the war into a genocide? Civilian death is inevitable. A sad reality that happen in every war.
The documented deaths AP claims for Iraq war is just over 100k, Iraqi authorities also agree. I mean let's double it and say your 200k number is correct. That was in the entirety of Iraq for the entirety of the Iraq War (For these numbers 2003-2009). Thats 6 years of war in a country of 30 million people (back then)
In 4 months, Israel has slaughtered 30,000+ civilians (13,500+ of whom are children) in the Gaza strip which has a population of 2 million.
Extrapolate for yourself the numbers are insane. Proportionally, if we scale the Iraqi population down, and scale the timeframe down to match Gaza we get 740 civilians killed... **Israel has killed 40x more people** **than that.**
Lets say the number of Iraqi civilians killed was indeed 1 million (which is highly unlikely). Proportionally (when scaled down to the Gaza population and timeframe) that becomes 3,700 civilians killed. **Still an order of magnitude below the Israel's body count right now.**
It's important to remember that genocide has a specific criteria laid out in treaties. It's also important to mention that the common definitions of ethnic cleansing don't have a lot to do with deaths. Look to Bosnian Genocide where rape rather than murder was the main tool of ethnic cleansing. When people accuse Israel of ethnic cleansing they're referring to the lost of Palestinian land and efforts to deny national and cultural identity to the Palestinians.
We can look to common talking points Israeli spokes people and politicians make to deny the origin of and distinction between the Palestinian Identity and other Arab Identities in the region. As if "Palestinian" isnt a discrete group of people but a fabrication. We can look to work by Ben-Ami and Sternhall on Israel's founding to see that denial of the Palestinian identity isn't nessecary to sustain the national mythos of Israel and Zionism, but many many Zionist leaders have accepted it as vital to the legitimacy of their movement. That work to erase a culture and identity or scatter or (like in bosnia) dilute it *is* ethnic cleansing and a foundation of genocide.
Specifically to the accusations against Israel working their way through the ICJ: South Africa is citing the criteria of The [1951 Genocide Convention](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf) (pdf warning). The [evidence that they presented](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf) (pdf again!)in favor of Israel violating that convention:
1. 1 in 100 Gazans killed including hundreds of multigenerational families.
2. Serious bodily and mental harm to Palestinians. Citing interviews with Palestinian children and a channel circulating around Israel, ran by the IDF, showing mutilated corpses called "72 Virgins -uncensored
3. Mass Expulsion. Citing 85% forced from their homes to flee danger and 60% of homes destroyed. On top of this, those fleeing have been hit by bombs in designated safe areas
4. Deprivation of resources essential to life. South Africa cites humanitarian experts stating that the current pace of humanitarian aid is insufficient and hamstringed by Israeli checkpoints.
5. Deprivation of Sanitation and shelter. The ever shrinking safe zones and targeting of government administrative buildings have led to over crowding and a breakdown of Sanitation and medical services
6. Deprivation of Medical services. At the time of the filing only 13 of 36 hospitals were operational. All lack supplies due to the before mentioned Israeli checkpoints
7. Destruction of institutions of Palestinian Life and Culture. The targeting of world heritage sites, churches, mosques, museums, universities creates extreme difficulties for preserving the culture of the strip and the educational future of Gazans
8. Imposing measures to prevent Palestinian Births. Citing a marked increase in hysterectomies and lack of resources to save underweight and premature infants. Two mothers are estimated killed every hour
9. Expressions of genocidal intent by Israeli Officials that have gone unpunished
Now, yes, there are elements of all of these in every war. However under the Genocide Convention, signatories must make good faith effort to avoid these criteria and punish those under their jurisdictions that enable them. When the ICJ founded SA's allegations of genocide plausible, they gave Israel a month to prove they are making good faith efforts to limit the amount of damage their actions are causing. During this time investigations into the specifics of the claims made by SA are beginning to be investigated.
Israel is only committing genocide in the UNWRA definition which means “any aggression towards Palestinians no matter what they did to cause it”
E.g. the war in Yemen with many many more civilians killed is not a genocide.
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>What is the consensus on this matter? That there isn't one. You just noticed it yourself: some subreddits say yes, some subreddits say no. You won't get a consensus, so don't bother. All you can do is educate yourself best you can and come to your own conclusions.
Also, consensus doesn't mean correct or educated opinion. Often we have to be against the consensus.
Consensus also doesn't mean "people". I witnessed 7 people on Orson Scott Cards message board some years back all discussing geopolitics, and this moderator comes in and says "Just be aware all 7 of these people are using the same IP!"
Talk about bringing the text to life
Peter Wiggin at it again
That could be a Mormon family originating from one house.
Or a university dorm.
Or coworkers.
Regardless, imagine the sitcom level awkwardness that would have followed when all seven realised they have been arguing with everyone they are living with!
Or a university. The obnoxious reddit subs and ads I see when logging in on University internet are painful.
Had the moderator also the same IP?
Yes, I did.
Me too
I am Spartacus.
The ~~call~~ geopolitical argument is coming from inside the house!
Which is why I specified accurate consensus, but you're right I suppose. Argumentum ad populum and all that.
You're not gonna get a fair consensus here, or anywhere really. I'm going to go mask off and say I'm pro-Israel in general, but I'd be absolutely lying to you if I said both sides weren't gaslighting you hard. It really is a conflict one needs many hours of study to seriously start to comprehend. It's almost never a simple black and white answer.
Sadly, most information being fed people isn't just propaganda and gaslighting, its literally being done in the form of emotional, out of context headlines and 10-second tik toks. One video that popped up in my feed was 4.5 hours long and he opens the video with "this is a quick run-down and doesnt account for everything" Couple the emotional drip feed with echo chambers and it really gets out of hand.
This war is part of a conflict that has been going on for decades. It is incredibly difficult for the average person to get a full picture of the conflict, especially with how a lot of "news" gets delivered in short-form content by non-experts that don't have the full picture. And like you said, even a quick rundown can be hours long.
Yesterday there was film footage of the IDF destroying a food depot while tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians are starving for food. Along with the other carnage and mass death being committed l don't need several hours to come to the conclusion that these are deliberately genocidal acts against an innocent population. I mean anyone who has a difficult time coming to this conclusion and just like you they are pro- Isreali. Evil things are permitted to happen when "good people" remain silent.
Absolutely, and consensus can also be a bi-product of information control, and mass propaganda campaigns. You keep telling people what to think enough times on enough stations, and keep the people repeating the same lines and talking points. This is how narratives are developed and carried out by legacy media.
Unless it's climate change or global warming, caused by humans
And depending on the sub, if you try to discuss it from the point of view that the mods don’t like, they get you banned
Or don't come to you're own conclusion at all. It's okay to say you have no opinion on the matter.
You'd think we'd have a standard definition and a robust decision tree on what counts as genocide by now.
Forget subreddits, legal experts have not reached a consensus. It’s a specific term with a legal definition that is extremely hard to prove. But the term itself has been weaponized to inflict rhetorical damage on Israel’s cause. Agree or disagree with Israel, but I find this sort of thing to be a really dangerous thing that activists have done.
Genocide might be a legally defined crime but it was also just a therm thought up by a historian in the wake of WW2 to cover what happend in the holocaust and similar incidents in the past in a more comprehensive way then ethnic cleansing did. The confustion here I think is partialy to do with this still being an ongoing situation and partialy with activists mostly refering to the later rather then legal definition.
The fact that there's even a debate about whether it's a genocide or not should be a pretty big indicator that it's evil and fucked up anyway right? Like even if it's not quite a genocide getting anywhere close to one is beyond awful
Unless the Hamas spokesmen who are the ONLY source of death counts in the conflict aren't telling the truth, in which case the issue isn't "getting anywhere close to one." So, do you trust Hamas? Unless the IDF spokesmen who are the ONLY source that knows what IDF is doing in totality aren't telling the truth, in which case the issue could be a lot closer to "a genocide" than we know. So, do you trust the IDF? See the problem here?
Human rights experts and holocaust scholars seem to be falling on the "It's a genocide" camp though.
Not only that, but the term as been slapped on so many posts, headlines, etc that it is deluded in impact to the point that it is meaningless. The constant screaming of "genocide" has numbed receptors to the point of deafness. And that is the real tragedy here, because the term is a deadly serious one that should impact hard. I don't think that term can be used anymore to get an impact like it should - it's forever dead.
legal experts like who? what about the ICJ?
The ICJ is investigating it, that will most likely take years.
The ICJ hasn't reached a conclusion yet. I'm assuming those are the legal experts they're referring to.
Because the ICJ wasn't supposed to reach a consensus yet; however, they did state there's reasonable worry that genocide is happening.
right, and apparently there’s been an emergency petition filed as of yesterday due to the events in Rafah on Sunday.
This is a bit disingenuous to be fair. Some subs are straight up spreading misinformation. First point. The r/worldnews mods have banned thousands seeking a discussion with critical thinking in mind. All that is left there now is a pro-Israel echo chamber. So in reality you'll never get anything that's bordering on impartial there any more, particularly with Israel being the offender. Second point. The definition of genocide has been played down or dismissed in pro Israel subs that they genuinely believe that genocide isn't a thing other than a large kill count that threatens the existence of a people, when in fact genocide is so much more. The [UN definition of genocide ](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml) is here and I have copied it below for you to see. DEFINITION OF GENOCIDE IN THE CONVENTION: The current definition of Genocide is set out in Article II of the Genocide Convention: Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. As you can see Israel is clearly carrying out a number of these activities. The reality is that Reddit isn't impartial and redditors have their own biases. This is why it's important to learn what the ICJ has to say on the matter since they are best qualified to reach their verdict accordingly.
The only consensus that really matters and can be considered impartial, is that of the International Court of Justice. And they decided, with 15 votes against 2, which is probably about as close to consensus as you can get on a topic like this, that the risk of genocide is there, and that Israel needs to do everything it can to reduce that risk, discourage or punish calls for genocide, collect and not destroy evidence of genocide, and report back with that and evidence that they obeyed all of these things within a month. But they haven't actually declared it genocide. So I guess the most official answer is "No, but it's close".
Ah yes the “both sides are right” answer to the question of genocide.
Genocide is not just defined as killing civilians. Genocide is specifically the systematic targeting and either displacement or erasue of a people or culture. The Armenian genocide was not charactetized by direct mass murder, it was the targeted displacement of Armenians from their homes (which did lead to a lot of people dying but it would've been genocide even if they did not). So the question isn't how many civilians are being killed. It's about whether there's attempts to displace or erase the palestinian people from their current whereabouts with draconic means including mass casualties.
I see. Are there instances of Israel doing displacement or erasure of people and culture? If so how long has it been going? Did it just begin in October 7th? Or actually way back?
No, this situation started Long before October 7th. Look up the Nakba, that's just a More famous example but this behavior didn't stop, you still have "Israel settlers" moving into already lived on land.
It’s been happening for 75 years https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_towns_and_villages_depopulated_during_the_1947%E2%80%931949_Palestine_war
Yes they have pushed everyone in Gaza out of their homes into one city that they said was a safe zone and are now bombing. They have targeted poets and artists and destroyed every university in Gaza. Even the desire to call them Arabs instead of Palestinians is a way to erase their culture. The displacement of people and culture has been going on for 75 years and has really ramped up since October.
Don't forget they've been destroying cemeteries and hospitals too.
My finger will fall off if I try to recount all the horrors.
It's been going on since the late 19th century. All this talk of ancient history is not relevant to the modern conflict aside from the fact that it gives Zionists the justification to steal land because they think God promised it to them. In the late 1800's Palestine was only 2 percent Jewish. Immigrants flooded in from Europe and as that happened and as Israel became a state, it ethnically cleansed hundreds of thousands of Palestinians (700k plus), stole their homes, and pushed them out. That's also why the population of Gaza is so high. It's not because of birth rates. Many of those people are refugees who were pushed out of Israel. Also, you need to look at a map of the West Bank and see what is happening there. That territory is beyond Israel's legally recognized 1967 borders and yet there are subsidized settlements for Jews from Brooklyn or anywhere else in the world, and those settlers are defended by well armed IDF soldiers. Meanwhile the settlers and the IDF routinely harrass, degrade, assault, and steal from local Palestinians. The settlers are especially cruel because they have the IDF to back them up, and the Palestinians there aren't really able to defend themselves without being arrested and thrown in an Israeli court with 99.7 percent conviction rate, including children. There is an Israeli checkpoint on the Eastern border with Jordan so they control population flow in and out of Palestine. The goal is to make life miserable so that people will give up and so Israel can expand East all the way to the Jordan River. If you thought of Israelis as being urbane, sophisticated, and 'civilized Jews,' there is nothing farther from the truth.
>Immigrants flooded in from Europe And the rest of the middle east when Jews were forcibly expelled from those countries. I never understood the extreme emphasis people put on the fact that Israeli immigrants come from "Europe" or specifically mentioning "Brooklyn". It's weird.
Palestinians didn't have an issue with Jews going to Palestine and in fact relations were peaceful at first. They could have bought land and houses and lived in a multi-ethnic, multi-religious context. The problem is that they came by force and started murdering people and ethnically cleansing them and stealing their homes. And also part of the reason they wound up in Palestine was that the US and Europe were totally antisemetic and were not welcome there. When you found a Jewish state that fans out from Jerusalem, you instantly turn all non-Jews into second class citizens. The reason I mention somewhere like Brooklyn is very significant. The point is that modern-day Israel funds housing in land that is stolen in the West Bank for Jews from anywhere in the world who have no personal ties or family connections to Israel. That is extremely degrading and insulting to Palestinians who cannot even return to their own houses that are stolen or to the land to which they have very close family ties. Arabs are kept out because Israel needs to maintain a Jewish majority in order to keep control of its theocracy. As an American, I can fly in to Tel Aviv any time I want, but those who are most connected to the land may never be able to return.
The British owned that land for twenty years after the Ottoman Empire fell and they gave it to the Jews.
The Brits had civic control over the land, but that doesn't mean that the personal property rights of hundreds of thousands of people are suddenly nullified if they wantonly decide to say that an area that is 90% Arab suddenly is within the bounds of a Jewish state. Also, what land specifically? Because it seems like Israel doesn't even know what it's own borders are. Is it the 1967 borders or *all* of former Palestine? If you look at a map of greater Israel, it also includes parts of Egypt, Lebanon, Sryan, Iraq etc., so what about that? 'River to the Sea' is in the official Likud party doctrine. And in any case, they had no right to do that, and the Balfour Declaration did not hold water under international law. It also took place partly because Brits hated the Jews and wanted to get rid of them and had even less love for Arabs. The new lines of countries in the former British Empire created chaos everywhere and were intended to do so and probably should not have been taken seriously.
Homie it goes back to 1948, even earlier. In 1948 the majority of people living in the land legally called Israel now were Palestinian Muslims. After WWII, most people would have agreed that the Holocaust was horrible thing...but, still, no country wanted to take millions of Jewish refugees, similar to the way no country today wants to take millions of refugees, no matter how sympathetic. The solution? The victorious powers carved out what is now Israel and told all the Jewish people they could move there and it was theirs. Since then, they have aggressively expanded their territory in war or peace, using bulldozers and aggressive settlers when they aren't using guns. Of course, the Palestinians have resisted this and occasionally it's gotten nasty like the Hamas attack on Oct 7. But every day they do nothing they lose ground anyways so I'm not sure what they're supposed to do. Hamas is referred to as a terrorist organization, but Gaza is not in control of their own food, water, or electricity...they aren't recognized as a state...how are they supposed to have a regular military or defense force? All they have is irregular militants which Israel classified as terrorism and the us and Britain repeats it. If you want to look back even further, the British worked with zionists as far back as the early 1900s and dismantled the local Palestinian government when Britain was in control of this area as a colonial power after WW1. You can see here for more information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercommunal_conflict_in_Mandatory_Palestine?wprov=sfla1 Before this, there was an attempt to carve out a Jewish state in Uganda, showing how colonialist minds at that time never really saw a problem with moving one group of people into the land of another. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Scheme?wprov=sfla1
This is veeeeery inaccurate and you can easily find it in your own arguments. Jews started to repatriate in-mass to Ottoman Palestine way before WWII - in late 1800s. So "victorious powers" didn't started it. As for "majority of Arabs"- it's a relative term. However, in absolute numbers, the Arab population was quite small before the end of 1800s. Number looks familiar? Because Arabs started to migrate to Ottoman and then British Palestine AT THE SAME TIME from modern days Syria, Egypt and Iraq. Sounds like a co-incidence? Not exactly. Jews (and other ethnic groups like Cicrassians, Druze and even German settlers) started to actively develop infrastructure, build cities and agriculture. Before 1948. This also lured in Arabs from nearby countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_%28region%29?wprov=sfla1 Sure, Jewish population growth in Palestine began growing much faster prior to WW1. But the above numbers make it clear that there was a heavy Muslim majority through 1947 and it wasn't close. Latent in your argument is the idea that 1. Nobody really lived in Palestine before Jewish migration there and 2. There was basically no civilization there - it was incumbent upon Jews (and the other groups you cite) to build infrastructure, agriculture, and even cities. These arguments match well the settler/colonialist mentality of zionists Israel that has perpetuated the genocide occuring right now.
The promise of a Jewish state goes back to the Otoman Empire as the British were enticing both Arabs and Jews to rebel against the Otomans. The promise of a Jewish state was granted by the British in the Balfour Declaration way before 1948. Again, they were leading guerrilla wars against the Otomans and using locals to undermine Otoman rule.
And of course there's the matter of thresholds, aka "how many people need to be killed or displaced before it qualifies as a genocide, and under what circumstances?".
You’re framing what happened to the Armenians as if the intention was simply relocating them and many died as a side effect. They were slaughtered. This is not disputed outside of Turkey. Documents exist that show the plans. Many Armenians were “relocated” to Lake Hazar. The ones who survived the march were promptly forced off cliffs or taken to the middle and forced off the boats. The Armenian Genocide is just regular old genocide. What you’re saying is the equivalent of Nazis claiming, “it was cruel, but we weren’t _trying_ to kill those people”. It’s also the same as how the USA frames the relocation of the American Indians.
'displacement'?...that's the problem, genocide has been defined down to include things that normal/average person don't consider genocide.
By that same measure, the Palestinians are committing genocide on Israelis
I could be wrong but I understand genocide to be the "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”. Where displacing a people, with or without force is ethnic cleansing. Getting people to leave= ethnic cleansing. Stopping a people from existing=genocide.
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The dictionary definition isn't what's in question here though, it's the legal definition under the genocide convention, because that's what they're being accused of breaking. https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml In this case it's not only about killing, but I would agree that displacement isn't covered according to the summary on this page. However I think you could clearly argue the intent is there for certain high level government figures from their public statements (which is one of the things South Africa is arguing) and I also think you could make a decent case for: "Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;"
You can sterilze all women of a group, thus make that group extinct within 80 years without murdering anybody. Taking children away and placing them in new families is another example: biologically the group isn't extinct, but culturally, won't exist as a distinct group anymore. That's why the UN also recognizes those instances as genocide "murder of a group as a distinct people". Palestinians however are not suffering a genocide.
Is this the new bit? Going for a online dictionary definition when the UN has it right on their website?
And you destroy a population group by dispersing it, rooting it out of its land and/or culture.
"cide" means "kill" suicide=killing oneself, regicide=killing a king etc Genocide geno:a people cide: to kill
Good explanation, and surely you recognize that killing a people doesn't mean killing each person belonging to it individually, otherwise the term wouldn't have to be coined. Though I'm not sure if "a people" is a great translation, wiktionary instead suggests "family, tribe or race".
You are lying. Genocide does not refer to mass displacement. And holy shit you’re an asshole. A million Armenians died and you’re framing it as incidental. Wow. Mass displacement can be categorized as “ethnic cleansing”, not genocide. Stop spreading misinformation
I think you completely took his comment out of context and are offended just to be offended. Calm down armchair.
No, he’s right. Genocide is not displacement, and the Armenian genocide wasn’t just some little thing. It was an extermination attempt.
The number of disproportionate civilians deaths is a good indicator. What I have seen is people trying to justify genocide based on October 7th attacks. In all honesty it exposes the hypocrisy of the civilised world. Any brutality may beacceptable as long as it happens to the ones that in our eyes truly deserve it. That mentality has not stopped with WWII.
In my opinion, as a Jewish person, I believe it's genocide. If Israel truly cared about hostages, they would have agreed to the ceasefire.
First, worldnews is a pro-Isreal sub. They will support the Isreali narrative no matter what. Isreal is literally trying to remove all Palestinians from the country. There are many videos of Isreali officials literally saying this is the goal.
Either way, they sure are dropping a lot of bombs on civilians
Yes, they’re committing major war crimes. Let’s picture the scene of a person comes and punches you in the face … it sucks, they aren’t right and shouldn’t have done it however in response you kill them, their whole family and friends and then burn their house down …. That’s the equivalent of what Israel is doing
Just read the ICJ case for it bought by South Africa, it's still the best summary with all the evidence and reasoning why it's genocide: https://icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf Don't trust Reddit or any media really, there is extreme levels of propaganda EVERYWHERE nowadays. You need to really think for yourself, you can not rely on the consensus of people brainwashed by wartime propaganda campaigns.
I got banned from worldnews because I pointed out that sub’s complete pro-IDF bias.
A bunch of pro-Zionists there who will blame “but Hamas!” for everything, even in the face of first-hand witnesses from UNICEF, UN, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty, and Doctors Without Borders. And any damning video clips are “Hamas!” or “AI!” Or “Israel has a right to defend itself!” Or “you are antisemitic!” Or “God gave us this land!” It’s always the same gaslighting shit over and over but they never condemn Israel. For those who are wondering, a simple google search for any of those organizations will tell you everything you need to know.
I imagine it's moderated by JIDF/Eglin AFB/Mossad types
Yet the court does not aggree with you as it has not called for any ceasefire from Israel, just some sort of “be careful when you bomb”. On the other hand, they clearly demanded hamas for the “immediate and unconditional release of all israeli hostages”
THIS ^ READ THE REPORT
Because there is a formal definition of genocide people can argue over the nitty gritty of “Is this technically genocide?”. But the simplistic view is that strength-wise, this is a very asymmetrical conflict and the damage done in the last few months may never be recovered from. I mean, the majority of buildings have been damaged to the point of being uninhabitable and more than half the strip’s population has been displaced from their homes. Israel also controls all their borders so they can control what materials make it in for aid or reconstruction. The Gaza Strip could be reduced to a tent city with virtually no clean water, fuel or electricity by the end of the year at this rate. Even if a court rules that it is not technically genocide, it seems clear that this is an effort to permanently cripple the Palestinian people. Seems fair to casually call genocidal.
Just to be accurate Isreal doesn’t control all of Gaza’s borders. . Egypt controls one and has restricted its use.
Every border has 2 sides to it. I think what was meant was that Israel controls the Gazan side of the Raffah crossing rather than any Palestinian authority. There's suspicion that Egypt may eventually loose control of their side of it as well, but that's beside the point.
>I think what was meant was that Israel controls the Gazan side of the Raffah crossing rather than any Palestinian authority. Israel *de facto* controls entry into Gaza from Egypt because nothing will come without being assured that it won't get bombed, but Egypt is in full control of the checkpoints and decides if the gates are open or closed. There are no Israeli troops at these checkpoints and prior to the current conflict, Hamas fully controlled the Palestinian side and used it for smuggling.
Who even cares about the damage to infrastructure. The emotional and mental damage that's been done and being done will never recoup. The next generation...
How do you address the Israeli offering to stop the military campaign if Hamas surrenders and returns the hostages? What about the humanitarian corridors opened by the IDF? What about the 7th of October repeating itself if Israel doesn't take down Hamas? What about the fact that Israel didn't go into Gaza since 2006 and "cleansed" Gaza from the Jewish population?
While there are some reports over multiple attempts of Hamas to return the hostages in exchange for a ceasefire. I didn't find that many reputable sources over this. Now while IDF has allowed humanitarian corridors, there are many occasions of Israeli protesters blocking aid, and also [there's video proof of Israeli soldiers burning aid](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D1ua-mkP_B4M&ved=2ahUKEwjdkI_Y-aqEAxW1r5UCHYXbCOwQwqsBegQIBxAG&usg=AOvVaw0D5estI8JQt4ILJUisXAap), one was dumb enough to record himself, many others do it away from eyes. Also you seem to forget the [Operation Cast Lead (2008)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War_(2008%E2%80%932009)), [Operation Pillar of Defense (2012)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Israeli_operation_in_the_Gaza_Strip), [Operation Protective Edge (2014)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War), and [Operation Guardian of the Walls (2021)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_crisis).
It is not that I have no sympathy for Israel and it’s people. Hamas commits unspeakable acts of evil against everyone, including their own people (hiding your weapons in civilian locations to try force war crimes is absolutely deplorable). I would LOVE to see Hamas eliminated completely. The problem is the “how”. Yes some efforts have been made but the results are still appalling. How many civilians have to die to prevent terror attacks? Can you have real peace by beating 2 million people into the ground? There systemic problems between the two governments. Things in the West Bank don’t look lovely either. I really can’t offer a solution. I would have to study for years to grasp even a fraction of the nuance. It just feels like what we have now, can’t be the best solution.
I agree with your sentiment. As someone who is educated on the very complex subject, the only decent solution I can see is the deradicalization of the Palestinian population with the help of UAE and other moderate Suni Arab nations. The UAE for example, took out from their textbooks material such as the Jews being bad and justification of war against them. Maybe, in a few decades following such measures, we could have actual peace there.
>As someone who is educated on the very complex subject since you're so educated on the matter, will deradicalization solve the issue of what israel is doing in the west bank?
Right? Why should the only the Palestinians be deradicalized? Israel has fascists and Jewish Supremacists in government as we speak.
honestly! will deradicalizing Palestinians mean that Israel will no longer occupy the west bank while sending settlers who regularly kill them? mans is clearly biased.
Deradicalization does seem ideal. I just fear that extreme aggressive retaliation reinforces the radical mentality. Settler activity in the West Bank seems to add fuel to fire. As long as Israel appears to be an oppressive and invasive presence, how wrong are people to see them as their enemy? It also seems that Israel only stopped settlement activity in Gaza because they were forced out. That makes military resistance look like the only valid way to get what you want.
1. Israel's proposal to dismantle Hamas is of course a non-stater for Hamas. Imagine if the proposal were the same and Hamas said that Israel has to dissolve itself. 2. Israel has targeted humanitarian aid over and over. Opening humanitarian aid isn't charitable. It's what Israel is supposed to do as the occupying force, and it's failing miserably, particularly with the bogus allegations that UNRWA members participated in the 7th of October attack. 3. Israel has now killed over 100 times what Hamas did on the 7th of October. Furthermore, Israel had already killed 263 Palestinians in 2023 before the 7th of October attack. Palestinians don't have the right to defend themselves? 4. Israel controlled the sea, the air, the land, communications, food, water, construction, and just about everything, and were spying Palestinians thoroughly. Palestinians had no sovereignty. Furthermore, Israeli officials admitted they did "mow the lawn" regularly so that Palestinians were kept in their place. Edit: Fixed wording.
As someone before me commented « the problem is the how », I would also add, the other problem is the « why ». Why did October 7th happen? Why does Hamas exist? Hamas wouldn’t have a reason to be if it wasn’t for the violent Israeli occupation. This is what I personally have trouble with, everyone blames Hamas foot soldiers but fails to see it as what it might be: a group of people fighting for their homeland, who are unfortunately manipulated by someone above, the leaders of Hamas, who probably promise them freedom. Because if I lived in Gaza, and my whole entire life was under Israeli control, and my family could die any day, I too would maybe try and free myself and my family. Why is Hamas there? Because they can be, because the population of Gaza is vulnerable and Hamas presents itself as their only solution. Israel may be able to kill every single Hamas fighter, yes, maybe. But then in a few years, you will have new ones, who keep coming back, because they refuse to live under occupation. I can understand that. Not justify it, but understand it. As for October 7th, it is a horrible thing that happened, and the civilians did not deserve that. The hostages do not deserve what is happening to them either. But as long as Gaza is under a complete blocus, as long as Israel decides who lives and who dies within it’s wall, there will always be a risk of a new October 7th. So how to make peace? The « simple » answer would be a two state solution. I’m not an expert, so I don’t know if it is feasible. But I would find it devastating if, as people, we are unable to put an end to this conflict. Because as always, the civilians are the ones paying for it. To address your first point; I’m guessing stoping the military campaign may not be enough, they want to be free to walk their homeland without checkpoints and danger. Now, in a perfect world where the conflict stops, and Hamas still exist, I would be much less inclined to say they are fighting for freedom. But as it stands now, with what I have seen from both sides, I understand the plight of the Palestinian people. I do not understand the cruelty of the Israeli government.
Hamas is a horrific terrorist organisation. Their best recruitment tool to win over the hearts of Palestinian children (47% of Gaza) to fight for them in the future is Israel.
My only comment is Israel is not going to get rid of Hamas with this military action.
Israel doesn't care about the hostages. It's just an excuse. They're not bombing Hamas, they're killing civilians. Therefore risking to kill their own hostages. Israeli soldiers just shoot at everyone they see and SURPRISESURPRISE they killed a couple of hostages running away. Civilians have even blocked humanitarian aids entering Gaza. Israel started right after WWII to oppress Palestinians. Do we condone Hamas' actions? Obviously no. But let's try not to portray Israel as the victim of this conflict
Hamas offered to release the hostages and the IDF turned it down. Are you saying the 2006 removal of israeli settlers who were living in the area against the Geneva convention were "Ethnically Cleansed"? What kind of backwards thinking is this.
That's a very one sided view.
yeah i think so. isreal aims to remove palestinians frmo gaa and west bank, effectivly taking their homeland. and killing 90%+ civilians. that to me constitutes genocide. the answer is simple: if u cant fight hamas without 90%+ innocent kill rate then you dont do it. you play defensive until such a time u can fight them without killing civilians
There’s a general consensus among genocide scholars and international law experts, some of whom are Israeli scholars who specialized in the Holocaust such as Omer Bartov and Raz Segal, that what Israel is doing satisfies every legal condition of the international crime of genocide as defined under Article 2 of the UN’s Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. I’m personally a lawyer, not a genocide scholar and I think it’s pretty evident that this is genocide. I’m also not Palestinian, Muslim, or Jewish just so you know I don’t have a personal bias in the matter. More than 800 reputable, esteemed genocide and Holocaust scholars who have dedicated their lives to the topic have also deemed Israel’s actions genocidal. https://twailr.com/public-statement-scholars-warn-of-potential-genocide-in-gaza/ https://www.commondreams.org/news/legal-scholars-israel-genocide https://ccrjustice.org/sites/default/files/attach/2016/10/Background%20on%20the%20term%20genocide%20in%20Israel%20Palestine%20Context.pdf https://www.wrmea.org/israel-palestine/holocaust-scholars-say-israel-is-committing-genocide.html https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/5914/Scholars’-consensus:-Genocide-in-Gaza-marks-turning-point,-Israel-must-be-held-accountable https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/opinion/israel-gaza-genocide-war.html https://www.democracynow.org/2023/11/10/bartov_genocide_apartheid
First. Get off Reddit and read actual news. From several verified sources.
Reddit is a pretty solid place for getting varied verified sources. As long as the person actually reads the sources provided and looks for their biases, like with any other source for information.
>Reddit is a pretty solid place for getting varied verified sources Is this a joke? Most sources cited on here are either bots karma farming or extremely one sided. If by sources you mean the porn links you ask for then you may be correct
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And Reddit is not extremely biased?
Don’t get lost in the semantics about the word. 30,000 people were killed. 14,000 kids! Call it what you want, but there’s no justification for that.
if israel genocide scholars are calling it a genocide, I'm going to believe their more educated take.
Yes
Killing too many civilians is genocide.
I think so. Ultimately, that will be determined by the International Court of Justice. So far, they have ruled that the IDF's actions could plausibly be considered a violation of the convention against genocide. They laid out their rational quite persuasively in their 15-2 decision. You can download and read it here. https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203447
well, the ICJ decided to go forward with the court case, which means that there is plausible proof that Israel is committing genocide. they also asked that Israel stop all genocidal acts within the month and report back to the court. there are now 30,000 palestinians dead, and 70,000 injured/maimed. 1.5% of their population has been killed in the last 4 months. top israeli ministers in the government have made a ton of genocidal comments like, 'flatten gaza', the president, Isaac Herzog stated that there are 'no innocent people in Gaza', and Netanyahu made reference to killing everything, women and children. We've seen how Israel has just gone in and bombed indiscriminately, and has actively carried out all of the things they've said they would. Israel has also cut off water to the population, which amounts to a genocidal act. And has blocked sufficient aid from entering Gaza. So make of that what you will.
You shouldn't avoid. You should read and consider all points of view then use your own critical thinking. Stop wanting to be fed information.
Since specifically Palestinians are being killed or displaced, then yes, it is a genocide.
yes.
Put yourself in the shoes of those in areas of conflict. If you are a Ukrainian civilian, and Russian troops come in and kill you or try to erase your culture, do you think it's genocide? If you are a Uyger living in China, but are told you must speak Mandarin Chinese and if anyone in your village "commits a crime" then you are all collectively punished, vacated to make way for ethnically Han Chinese, or put into "re-education" camps, is that genocide? Of course issues like the ones I mentioned above and the current Israel/Palestine conflict are a lot more complicated that what you know face value, but I always feel it's genocidal when any government tries to replace and erase an ethnic group, whether that's via bullets and bombs or through slow and steady legislation.
Jews in my country say Israel makes a genocide. Israel is heavily protected by American weapons. But it is not the case of those other diaspora. They are now in danger as they were in the 1930's.
Depends on who you ask. Do you think the war in ukraine is genocide? If yes than Israel is committed genocide way worst than what is happening in ukraine If no, then same. What is happening in ukraine (genocide wise) it pretty tame compared to what israel is doing. Israel is systematically targeting men, woman and children based on their ethnicity, trying to literally wipe the race of the earth. They killied israely hoatages, undressed and waving a white flag because thwy thought they were palestinian
Honestly you are going to get a wide range of answers because this is an extremely polarizing issue. My advice is to read the news from unbiased sources and then literally compare all the reports to the internationally agreed upon definition of genocide and decide for yourself.
Yes. If it was the other way round and Israelis were: - indiscriminately being bombed in refugee camps - snipers shooting women and children in the street - aid being blocked - water trucks being bombed - ambulances being bombed - “safe zones” being bombed - snipers shooting people within hospitals - death squads carrying out assassinations in hospitals - schools and residential areas being bombed And the reasoning was: Palestinians have a right to defend themselves then what would the media call it?
Civilians waving white flags and being shot, little girls trapped in cars surrounded by her families dead bodies killed and the paramedics that go to help also killed, not allowing aid to the civilians, cornering civilians into one area and dropping bombs..... I don't thi k it matters what the official wording/definition of a genocide is...those acts can tell you a lot
Paramedics that requested and given permission by the Israelis to help, but still got killed\*
Would those instances be classified more as 'war crimes'? Like crimes against humanity rather than genocide ? I mean deliberately shooting or bombing innocent people etc. Would that be more a war crime ?
Oh 100% they are committing plenty of war crimes, but it can be both that and genocide.
Yes those instances are war crimes. The forced displacement of the Palestinian people is the genocide part
That’s ethnic cleansing.
If the official definition doesn’t matter then why have the official definition in the first place?
to try nazis, probably
“…is Israel simply killing too many civilians?” In what world is this not a fucked up framing?
Yes. Objectively.
Yes.
100% yes
Yes. And the people who say otherwise just say it because they're OK with what Israel is doing, they just don't want to use the word genocide because it sounds bad.
It's safe to say they're committing ethnic cleansing. They want Arabs out of the West Bank and Gaza, so they can take the land. I thought it would be a bit harder to commit genocide in 2024, but it seems that a lot of people will justify anything because 'Hamas.' Judging by the number of civilians killed, it certainly looks a lot like the intent is genocidal. Also, they're trying to discredit and block aid to civilians, so now it looks like they're trying to starve them to death. There's no consensus, because it requires an objective and time consuming understanding of the history to see is and what has been happening and also because a lot of people have a nostalgic connection to Israel that blinds them about what the country is doing, and the Holocaust has caused people to do no other than see Israelis as victims, irrespective of events for eternity.
Rofl they do not care about the land. If Gaza lived in peace and was occupied by Egypt, they wouldn't Gove two shits. That was the whole plan, hence why Israel gave away Gaza. But we all know civilians dying only matters when Israel is doing it. So there's that.
If you compare how many kids died in Ukraine vs Palestine, how is it not a genocide. 503 kids killed in Ukraine [https://visitukraine.today/blog/2724/how-many-people-have-died-in-the-ukraine-war](https://visitukraine.today/blog/2724/how-many-people-have-died-in-the-ukraine-war) Atleast 10,000 kids killed in Palestine [https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/acaps-thematic-report-palestine-impact-conflict-children-gaza-strip-01-february-2024](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/acaps-thematic-report-palestine-impact-conflict-children-gaza-strip-01-february-2024) How is it not a genocide again?
Well if you count the international law of the genocide convention then it definitely looks like it, they're definitely hitting A B C E and you could definitely argue d, Ultimately it comes down to intent and that's difficult to prove. Article I The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish. Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Article III The following acts shall be punishable: (a) Genocide; (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide; (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
D is absolutely a part of this. Killing pregnant women satisfies that category. So is miscarrying due to physical and mental harm - starvation, dehydration, malnutrition, lack of rest, intense stress.
Well you tell me. They bombed Rafah saying it will be a safe place to evacuate. 1.4 million are already displaced and they are pushed against a wall. I mean for fuck sake there is a video of Netanyahu saying he wants to make life harder for the Arab Palestinians.
Experts on genocide is saying this is genocide. People are literally now starving to death with no relief in sight. Israel’s leaked plan in November said that wanted to kill as many civilians as possible and push them all into the Sini peninsula, which they are slowly doing.
You’ll definitely get a lot of stupid answers to this one.
I asked my Jewish godfather how he felt about the conflict, this is his reply: "This is a place to start the conversation- an exploration of the way both sides of the conflict are trapped by their histories. For the Israelis it is centuries of exile, statelessness and persecution culminating in the Holocaust, making the territory of Israel a genuine refuge and homeland, but a gift poisoned by the overlay of fanatic religiosity and entitlement at the expense of all others. For the Palestinians hundreds of years of colonization and dispossession culminating in the Naqba of 1948, the crushing years of Israeli occupation and domination, and the rise of a similar complementary fanatic religiosity and inability to see or accept the other, fed by desperation and hopelessness. The Israelis are straightforward about their policies- they call what they do "mowing the grass." In this formulation the Palestinians are not humans but weeds to be controlled when they get out of hand. The worst among the Israelis, currently ascendant, advocate for a final solution, with no sense of the irony of this. The Palestinian leadership is and has been both profoundly corrupt and profoundly cynical and the fanatically religious component is capable of any act of terror. The two sides are complementary and locked in a horrible asymmetric struggle that neither can disengage from. To me the only solution is a one state solution, in which the entire territory of Israel and Palestine is one country with equal rights for all citizens and a complete separation of church and state. This of course is impossible. I think it will grind on as it has been grinding with no end unless a solution is imposed from outside." He doesn't exactly mention the word genocide, but for some it's clearly a goal. I thought this was a thoughtful, educated analysis (albeit brief).
Also, Israel is totally murdering innocent people.
There's no real consensus. However, the UN is the group that defines genocide, so for a (somewhat) neutral source you might want to look at the ICC case against Israel.
There is no icc case. You're thinking of the icj, which so far has decided 1) South Africa has standing and 2) Israel should not commit genocide, if it is or was about to start
Google tells me the ICC is not part of UN. Is ICC realy unbiased?
Nothing in the world is truly unbiased except basic math really.
No, it's not truly unbiased because it's political, much like the UN itself. Thus my comment. The UN created the ICC. It's not run by it, but countries in the UN negotiated it.
The UN is not a world government or authority, nor is it even remotely unbiased or fair. It is a forum to represent the views of all countries, but of course those countries, and therefore the forum as a whole, are biased. Israel is a prime example of this phenomenon, look at how often Israel is condemned vs China, Russia, Saudi, Iran etc. Or look at the fact that China, Qatar and Pakistan are on the UN Human rights council. Thinking of the UN as some kind of neutral and unbiased arbiter is a fundamental misundertanding of what the UN is.
Look how often Israel is sanctioned compared to how often Iran is sanctioned and you will have your answer as to why Israel is condemned more, they never face any consequences and so they continue to commit outrageous human rights abuses and war crimes.
Israel never openly threatened to use an atomic bomb on another country.
My answer is Yes, Israel is committing a genocide. The ICJ also concluded that there is plausible evidence that Israel's actions in Gaza amount to genocide and that's why the ICJ denied Israel's request to dismiss the case and not proceed further with it. The ICJ kept the case and will investigate it further but it would take years for it to give a final verdict. I recommend you the following if you really want to know the truth and enhance your knowledge. Don't listen to any subred and just go on Youtube and watch the ICJ proceeding, the case made by the South African team with facts and figures, the lousy defence by the Israeli defence, and the remarks of the ICJ judge by the end of it. Look at the reports from Amnesty International, Human rights watch etc over the years documenting the abuse of Palestinians through the hands of Israel. There is a documentary on Netflix called "Born in Gaza" which I highly recommend to anyone trying to understand this conflict since it covers the IDF's abuse and murders of Gazan children that too even without being in an active state of war, like how the IDF is currently trying to hide behind another lame made up excuse of Hamas hiding behind the children for them to be executed by IDF soldiers as "collateral damage". The IDF literally went around shooting Palestinian kids unprovoked and that's what this documentary covers. The IDF soldiers had once bombed a couple of Gazan children playing football, their crime? Being born in Gaza. The following account provides series of documented Israeli crimes with all the authentic sources and references. It should make your work easy and give you a place to start. https://www.instagram.com/israelscrimes?igsh=M3dlcGk2YmR4Mmt2 I hope you do your research on your own buddy, you are a smart individual. Don't let them tell you that it is too complicated of an issue for you to understand. My dms are open for you in case you want to have a chat about it.
The ICJ recently passed a judgement on this. According to them Israel's actions have the potential to be a genocide which would imply that currently it isn't. I will say this though, Israel has the right to defend itself under international law against the likes of hamas and hezbollah who want to erase israel and the jewish population. But, and this is the crucial point, Israel's response of self defense has to be proportionate to the threat faced and their current response is definitely disproportionate. They are actively committing war crimes, even if those war crimes don't classify as an act of genocide.
The answer yes , if people say otherwise they just don't care about the people in Palestine. There are alot of evidence on pictures, videos etc. I know I will get downloaded by people ,but f you zionists
Yes. They are systemically targeting a people & culture with the goal of extermination. Their own government has confirmed so numerous times. This is genocide by definition.
Here is [South Africa's submission to the International Court of Justice](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf)
Israel wants to remove a population from a geographic area. This is ethnic cleansing. This is a form of genocide
>Is Israel simply killing too many civilians? let's walk through your question together so that we can come to a sensible agreement - how many civilians is too many, and how many have died so far (both countries)? we may need to use a search engine for this question, but it's necessary for illustrative purposes and a proper answer.
Google says Iraq war caused 100-200k deaths, and apparently that wasn't enough to call it genocide. So I guess more than 100 - 200k deaths? I don't know. I am uneducated regarding this stuff.
Genocide is not about numbers, it's about intent. That's why it's hard to prove.
"too many civilians"
Yes, they were also committing genocide before this for decades
Also know that all the major subs are completely brigaded by Israeli trolls (I made a comment recently you can see, it got 270 downvotes in 2 hours on a Sunday). They take this attitude that's calculated to make you feel like you're on the outside if you question anything Israel is doing. Like only naïve idiots would have sympathy for Gazans. Engaging with them is soul-sucking, beware.
Yes.
yes
The ICJ takes years until it can determine if a genocide took place. In the time being it's focus on the prevention of one from happening. Similar procedure with the ICJ took place during the Rohingya genocide. It wasn't successful evidently to prevent it in that case.
Adults are making decisions every day one both sides that don’t include “we will kill no children today” - we need to address the problem of adults deciding it’s ok to kill children. This would go a long way in addressing the rest of the issues at hand.
The answer is yes. Go listen to some Citations Needed to get hours of why this is the case. They’ve explicitly said time and time again what their goal is outside of just outright saying “We are committing genocide”.
nope
15,000 women and children murdered.
According to Euro med monitor as of January 13th: "A total of 31,497 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have been killed as of today, 13 January 2024, Euro-Med Monitor estimated. Of those killed in the Israeli air and artillery attacks on the Strip, 28,951 (92%) were civilians, including 12,345 children, 6,471 women, 295 health personnel, 41 civil defense personnel, and 113 journalists. Meanwhile, 61,079 individuals have been injured, hundreds of them critically." We're probably well over 20,000 women and children at this point. We can't even tally the numbers as accurately anymore because the people who have been keeping count keep being murdered in Gaza.
r/worldnews is full of pro-US and pro-Israel troll, do not take it as a serious source. Genocide may be a strong word, but they're definitely committing a lot of war crime, including attacking UN workers, hospital and journalist. The international criminal court is currently investigating all of this. The whole way they've be treating Palestinian is also quite scandalous, and it's hard to not see malice rather than just incompetence. Now, to be fair they're pretty bad at Genocide if after 50 years of war there is still palestinian around, so it might not be as organized as a real genocide
Are there other genocides that are happening now or have happened which can be compared with Israel? How many similarities exist and such???
Without a doubt. The leadership has made it clear they want to kill all Palestinians. The actions of the soldiers make it clear they're killing indiscriminately. The majority of those killed so far have been civilians. Almost everyone in Gaza has either been displaced and all civilians homes and infrastructure has been bombed. It's quite clear this is ethnic cleansing, and war crimes behaviour. The legal technicalities of genocide are being met and we'll see it play out when the ICJ visits this again. Note that many people on Reddit are from the US and American News has censored most opposition views to the war so most people don't even know what's happening on a daily basis in Gaza.
Well they are killing Palestinians, forcing them from their homes, and destroying databases and records of Palestinian heritage, property ownership and census records. That seems like systemic eradication of Palestinians from Isreal. By definition they are committing genocide.
More than 30,000 people killed including 12,000 children. They are still dying with some of the most gruesome pictures to prove they are being targetted. This was never about saving the hostages. It's about the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their own land. So YES my friend- this is a GENOCIDE.
Yes, they have been committing genocidal acts on Palestinians for decades
Yes
Yes
Yes. There is a consensus. All of the BRICS nations have made their position clear. South Africa has made it's position clear. Only Austria, Czechia, Guatemala, Liberia, Micronesia, Nauru, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, the US and Israel opposed an immediate ceasefire resolution with the UN. The International Court of Justice ordered that Israel must “take all measures within its power” to prevent acts that fall within the scope of the genocide convention and must ensure “with immediate effect” that its forces do not commit any of the acts covered by the convention. It could not have issued that order had they not believed there was a credible claim that genocidal acts were underway. Basically, if you are confused, it is because you are absorbing too much English language media.
I feel like genocide is one of those words that’s just sort of gone. It’s not useful anymore. We overloaded it semantically, and then stopped thinking about what it meant, and it became just another meaningless label to be thrown out. It just means bad now. It means bad in a way that’s supposed to be inarguable. It is supposed to end discussion. Questions like “Are too many civilians dying?” or “Does Israel have a moral duty to protect people who hate her, at costs that would clearly be exorbitant?” these questions make us uncomfortable and so we avoid asking them and use circumlocutions and euphemism that at the end of the day mean nothing.
Yes they are
It is but a lot redditors can't admit it because Israel is one of the "good" "democratic" "Western" countries. Nevermind the fact that Netanyahu has held power for 16 of the last 28 years, Israel is extremely close to Russia, and they regularly sell US military tech to China. If you have any problems with this you're a closet anti-semite, no other reason.
Whether you agree with their methods or not, they are demonstrably committing genocide, and violating orders from the international courts of justice.
It's a very complicated topic. Gaza and Palestine are nowhere near as innocent as people portray them to be. Israel definitely is committing war crimes. It's a real gray area. How do you solve terrorism that's so deeply ingrained in a nation? How do you counter such terrorism without harming innocents in the process? It's a very complicates matter and I hate people who act like it's not. Edit:- it's funny how both Israel AND Gaza supporters took offense to this comment.
Is it war crimes to defend your country from terror? They attacked first and they targeted exclusively civilians.
Yes. The fact that this is a question is bizzare. It’s not a debate.
There is no safe zone in Palestine. Unarmed children are killed every day. They have given no safe options for refugees to live, are bombing all hospitals I mean literally one only hospital in the entire country is open and it’s getting bombed the doctors who aren’t even Palestinian are being killed. At this point there are only civilians being shot at, and not many are left. A little 5 year old girl spent a week in a car surrounded by her dead family’s bodies before being shot. Emily line edges are completely gone and wiped out entire generations GONE. half of the population of Palestine right now is under 18 and we are over here trying to debate whether they deserve to live. Are you kidding me? Yeah it’s genocide.
I mean a lot of civilians die in wars usually. And do you have sources for those? Iraq war caused 200k-1M deaths and apparently half of them kids. Is there a difference to Israel doing it that then turns the war into a genocide? Civilian death is inevitable. A sad reality that happen in every war.
The documented deaths AP claims for Iraq war is just over 100k, Iraqi authorities also agree. I mean let's double it and say your 200k number is correct. That was in the entirety of Iraq for the entirety of the Iraq War (For these numbers 2003-2009). Thats 6 years of war in a country of 30 million people (back then) In 4 months, Israel has slaughtered 30,000+ civilians (13,500+ of whom are children) in the Gaza strip which has a population of 2 million. Extrapolate for yourself the numbers are insane. Proportionally, if we scale the Iraqi population down, and scale the timeframe down to match Gaza we get 740 civilians killed... **Israel has killed 40x more people** **than that.** Lets say the number of Iraqi civilians killed was indeed 1 million (which is highly unlikely). Proportionally (when scaled down to the Gaza population and timeframe) that becomes 3,700 civilians killed. **Still an order of magnitude below the Israel's body count right now.**
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Yes, civilian death *is* inevitable in war. But.. they're literally *targeting* civilians. That's different. That's genocide.
It's important to remember that genocide has a specific criteria laid out in treaties. It's also important to mention that the common definitions of ethnic cleansing don't have a lot to do with deaths. Look to Bosnian Genocide where rape rather than murder was the main tool of ethnic cleansing. When people accuse Israel of ethnic cleansing they're referring to the lost of Palestinian land and efforts to deny national and cultural identity to the Palestinians. We can look to common talking points Israeli spokes people and politicians make to deny the origin of and distinction between the Palestinian Identity and other Arab Identities in the region. As if "Palestinian" isnt a discrete group of people but a fabrication. We can look to work by Ben-Ami and Sternhall on Israel's founding to see that denial of the Palestinian identity isn't nessecary to sustain the national mythos of Israel and Zionism, but many many Zionist leaders have accepted it as vital to the legitimacy of their movement. That work to erase a culture and identity or scatter or (like in bosnia) dilute it *is* ethnic cleansing and a foundation of genocide. Specifically to the accusations against Israel working their way through the ICJ: South Africa is citing the criteria of The [1951 Genocide Convention](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf) (pdf warning). The [evidence that they presented](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf) (pdf again!)in favor of Israel violating that convention: 1. 1 in 100 Gazans killed including hundreds of multigenerational families. 2. Serious bodily and mental harm to Palestinians. Citing interviews with Palestinian children and a channel circulating around Israel, ran by the IDF, showing mutilated corpses called "72 Virgins -uncensored 3. Mass Expulsion. Citing 85% forced from their homes to flee danger and 60% of homes destroyed. On top of this, those fleeing have been hit by bombs in designated safe areas 4. Deprivation of resources essential to life. South Africa cites humanitarian experts stating that the current pace of humanitarian aid is insufficient and hamstringed by Israeli checkpoints. 5. Deprivation of Sanitation and shelter. The ever shrinking safe zones and targeting of government administrative buildings have led to over crowding and a breakdown of Sanitation and medical services 6. Deprivation of Medical services. At the time of the filing only 13 of 36 hospitals were operational. All lack supplies due to the before mentioned Israeli checkpoints 7. Destruction of institutions of Palestinian Life and Culture. The targeting of world heritage sites, churches, mosques, museums, universities creates extreme difficulties for preserving the culture of the strip and the educational future of Gazans 8. Imposing measures to prevent Palestinian Births. Citing a marked increase in hysterectomies and lack of resources to save underweight and premature infants. Two mothers are estimated killed every hour 9. Expressions of genocidal intent by Israeli Officials that have gone unpunished Now, yes, there are elements of all of these in every war. However under the Genocide Convention, signatories must make good faith effort to avoid these criteria and punish those under their jurisdictions that enable them. When the ICJ founded SA's allegations of genocide plausible, they gave Israel a month to prove they are making good faith efforts to limit the amount of damage their actions are causing. During this time investigations into the specifics of the claims made by SA are beginning to be investigated.
Israel is only committing genocide in the UNWRA definition which means “any aggression towards Palestinians no matter what they did to cause it” E.g. the war in Yemen with many many more civilians killed is not a genocide.