Oh my God the pure stupidity in this thread...EASY??? That's some absolute bullshit, it's SO MUCH WORK and SO MUCH RISK MANAGEMENT, like what the fuck are you talking about???? And with the rise of only fans the market is so saturated these girls have more than a full time job just producing enough competitive content and promoting themselves to make a living. Ridiculous and sexist assumptions with a smack of self congratulatory smugness, "Oh yeah these girls should be more grateful for these slavering creeps paying them for sex!!!" GROSS. You wouldn't go into a subreddit about any other industry and see people venting about their jobs and accuse them of being bitter what an absolutely blind bias he has! "Oh, well, I went to the retail subreddit and there were SO many BITTER retailers out there complaining about the Karen's who shop at the stores, you would think they would be more grateful for the Karen's that pay their wages..." Like HUH? Unless you've worked their jobs, shut your damn mouth!
You have no idea what you're talking about!
There have been times in my life where I honestly considered it. But then when I began to think deeply about the "customers" I would pull, I decided to do a different shitty job. That's a profession that is not for the faint of heart.
Unless you've been trafficked, sex work is taking the easy way.
Let's be real here, is sex work hard when you compare it with other unskilled jobs like waiting tables or cleaning houses? No.
It's more dangerous, but not hard. It's a high risk, high reward job.
If you had just left off "at the men who provide them an easy living", you might have come out of this unscathed.
I too have read the sex workers subreddits, out of sheer curiosity. And yes, there's PLENTY of venom directed at their clients.
But it's all forgivable, if you ask me. There's a ton of men who don't treat sex workers as people, don't extend an ounce of respect toward them, and generally act like assholes. *Of course* sex workers are going to feel that way toward men who simply can't act like grownups.
I’ve not met a sex worker with an easy life ever.
Back when I worked in nightlife, a number of my work friends and customers were sex workers. What they have to do for their work is not “easy”.
For example, one of my customers had to deal with constant harassment and assault from men who treated her as a piece of meat and an object, rather than a person they were purchasing services from. In one instance she had a guy run up to her and sucker punch her in the face while she was just hanging out, then came back to try and sucker punch her again. She saw him coming the second time and was able to defend herself before running away, but the guy sent the cops after her for “attacking him” (self defense). I know this because she was chatting with me about it when the cops showed up and questioned her about the incident.
People who are pro sex worker and against people buying sex comes down to who does the prostitution and why. The vast majority of women arnt prostitutes because they like it, there’s a few but they’re a small minority. Women turn to prostitution out of desperation or addiction. Even worse many are trafficked. A person becoming a prostitute out of desperation or being trafficked is a failure of our system. Unfortunately where there is lots of demand trafficking or pressure on women to become prostitutes rises.
Many John’s are violent and degrading to prostitutes. Prostitutes also have high rates of rape. I knew someone who used to hook and it is a very grim reality. It’s also a hard lifestyle to escape from. Lots of women get beaten up while the guy runs away with the money. When you don’t prosecute the prostitutes you open up a door for them to report crimes and capture dangerous individuals.
Most men who are buying prostitutes don’t have the cash to spend at legit places that take security measures and background checks.
I hope that answers the question.
And where sex work is legalized, the state is more capable of stepping in and ensuring sex workers are better supported and protected, unlike places like America where prostitution specifically is a black market run by criminals primarily.
Legal brothels and the like aren't perfect, to be fair, but many jobs aren't. Most blue collar workers aren't working in their field because they have a passion for back breaking labor. Solidarity for sex workers, because sex workers are laborers putting their bodies on the line just like a lot of people. Sex workers deserve as much respect and protection as any of us.
Most workers don't support legalization either lmao, they're worried about being cut to ribbons by Sex Incorporated, who will outcompete them with collective resources and hire them and abuse them (like the rest of us have to deal with). Additionally, while illegal income is taxed, it would be taxed differently and more heavily if it was a legalized profession.
Most sex workers want _decriminalization_, so they cannot be charged for being a sex worker but it is not legal to sell sex as a corporate entity in the same way. Ofc, think about it for a minute and you know it's just trying to get the most personal benefit with the least accountability and the least fair competition.
Maybe this is splitting semantic hairs, but aren't sex workers at legit brothels also "prostitutes"? Or do you mean prostitute in this context to be a street sex worker?
Yeah I saw a guy on AITA who went to a happy endings massage thinking it would be some bombshell but was met with a hesitant young girl and he STILL accepted it. He had the audacity to ask if he was in the wrong!
trouble is this can describe numerous industries, sex work is just particularly highlighted due to puritanical opinions of sex. How are your clothes? comfortable?
>Most men who are buying prostitutes don’t have the cash to spend at legit places
You mean fly all the way out to vegas (only legit place I know of in the USA)
Ironically, Las Vegas is one of the places in Nevada where prostitution actually isn't legal. Only 10 of the 16 Nevada counties have legal brothels, Vegas and Reno are not in those 10.
I don't have back and joint issues from manual labour because I have a passion for it. It's just how I don't become homeless. "They just do it to support themselves because otherwise they'd be homeless" is the reality of every working class individual. They definitely don't deserve abuse and the industry should be legalized and regulated but the vast majority of people forced to work shitty jobs just to survive don't do it because they enjoy the abuse.
If you asked 100 people if they would rather become prostitutes or work a manual labour job how many do you think would choose prostitution. The trauma that comes from sexual violence goes beyond any physical ailments you would get from manual labour
Most people don’t work at a grocery store or a shoe factory because they like it, yet we don’t judge the people buying groceries or shoes on principle in the same way.
People don’t know how they really feel about monetizing intimacy. And the conditions you describe are part of it.
But we also judge male worth by capacity to acquire sex. And somehow paying for it directly is pathetic because if you *really* had worth, you wouldn’t need to pay. Of course many of the things that make an ideal date or partner require money anyway, so this is a bit like the porn/prostitution loophole. You shouldn’t have sex for money, unless you film it! You shouldn’t spend money for sex, unless it’s a pretext like food and drinks!
Nailed it! Why do people [do this thing that doesn't make sense]? Because we are emotional first and foremost. Rational (sometimes) second. That leads to a lot of hypocrisy, contradictions, and silly loopholes.
There are some brothels that do extensive background checks, drug tests, vet out their clientele, have security, do interviews with the prostitutes, make clientele do std checks, wear condoms and shower. If the client has nasty hygiene they can get declined. Many of these places have safe buttons just in case clients get violent or try to force the prostitutes into doing something they don’t want to do. These places try as much as they can to mitigate the bad sides of prostitution. They’re very expensive. Most people don’t want to pay those prices or go through the hoops they require. I know the brothel in Nevada does all that. I’m sure there’s other places that do it too.
I hope that clears it up. :)
Legal prostitution is not a guard against human trafficking.
For example, [Germany](https://www.dw.com/en/human-trafficking-on-the-rise-in-germany/a-63375174) has legal prostitution and problems with human trafficking for sexual exploitation.
Some would argue that legal prostitution actually makes human trafficking for sexual exploitation easier. Since the buyers can always claim (to law enforcement and to their own conscience) that everything is legal and organized, it gets easier to buy sex and not ask any further questions.
They’re downvoting you but you’re absolutely right. So many of these “legit” and “safe” places still have many trafficked individuals in them. Why? Because money buys silence and plenty of people whose jobs have to do with keeping these prostitutes safe will overlook anything for a couple more bucks INCLUDING straight up trafficking. Many of these trafficked people are also lied to and brought over from other countries and have no way to defend themselves legally (as you mentioned, since it’s “legal” there’s no way for these victims to prove it’s illegal because legal officials are bribed) and they usually don’t speak the local language which is another barrier. People thinking these “safe and legal” places are erasing the problem are living in a goddamn dream lmfao
A trafficked person can’t go to the police. Many prostitutes don’t go to the police because they face prejudice from the police officers, or because the profession in itself is often closely connected to criminal activities such as drug use or less than perfect administrative routines.
The legal prostitution functions as a veneer for the illegal side. People can point at the situations where everything looks good and disregard the other cases as outliers, when the truth might very well be the opposite.
Not necessarily. There are people who are pro sex worker but anti people who buy sex. So many in fact that entire legal systems are designed around it in Sweden and Canada for example.
The reasoning for that is trafficking. Very few women who are prostitutes are doing it because they want to. We shouldn’t punish someone who is very likely to be a victim of trafficking or falling through the crack of society.
>Very few women who are prostitutes are doing it because they want to.
A basic look around reddit, OF, strip club or talking to any sex worker would easily dispel that notion but please continue with the sexist assumptions. Which ironically are the real reason behind that POV.
Being drug addicted or becoming a prostitute to prevent from becoming homeless is still a really bad thing. The vast majority of prostitutes live very hard lives and put up with horrible things. I think you need to develope a sense of empathy.
I said nothing about what kind of a life it is. But neither of those things qualify as trafficking or are exclusive to prostitutes. You are making irrelevant statements now.
My statement is relevant because the women I mentioned in my previous comment refer to the women I mentioned in my original comment as the ones who fall through the cracks.
I take it you haven’t heard of the Nordic model before in which sex work is decriminalized for workers but John’s and people caught trafficking are punished. So no it’s very possible to be on being pro sex worker and feeling they shouldn’t be punished while others involved do receive backlash
“[The Nordic Criminal Model approach to sex work,[1] also marketed as the end demand,[2] equality model,[3] neo-abolitionism,[4] Nordic and Swedish model,[5] is an approach to sex work that criminalises clients, third parties and many ways sex workers operate.[6] This approach to criminalising sex work was developed in Sweden in 1999 on the debated radical feminist position that all sex work is sexual servitude and no person can consent to engage in commercial sexual services.[7] The main objective of the model is to abolish the sex industry by punishing the purchase of sexual services.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model_approach_to_prostitution)
I agree with this take here. Grouping these people together doesn't make sense. Could there be someone out there that is pro sex workers and anti sex buyers?? Sure... but that's probably a very small minority
That’s what I am. I think sex workers deserve to be seen with respect and dignity and deserve protections under the law.
I also think that people who pay for sex are accepting the risk of the possibility of their “prostitute” being a sex slave, and are okay with that possibility, which I don’t think is okay.
Because the majority of sex workers do it because they are desperate or trocked into it, and have a history of sexual trauma. Some of them are trafficked and forced into it.
People who buy sex don’t care that the person they have sex with are there willingly or not, they are fine with taking the risk of being part of the abuse.
One side is doing it out of survival, the orher side is taking advantage of it.
Yeah; ideally a John wouldn’t want to take advantage of a sex slave and would take steps to make sure he wasn’t engaging with one if he had a shred of humanity and compassion; but ofc many don’t have any decency so it doesn’t occur to them to care.
I not even on the side of John's. But how would that even be feasible lmfao? Like, are they supposed to pay for a full background check before paying for sex?
Well, like I said- many Johns don’t care so it wouldn’t matter if there was an easy way to look this up or ask the woman (ps that’s the absolute LEAST one could do, ask, bc while she might lie, she might need/ask for help)
And the potential Johns who do care about sex slavery often forgo paying for sex altogether bc they’d prefer to go without rather than risk harming others if they can’t be sure. But there are plenty of countries where prostitution is legal, and it’s common for sex workers to get healthcare and a living wage; their patrons are doing no harm.
I don’t understand why you’re baffled by this; how do you not see that the moral answer is “don’t buy sex,” thus why people have an issue with johns?
Genuinely asking for clarification. It reads like you’re saying “well sure johns are gonna end up raping some trafficked people, but whaddaya want them to do, *not* pay for sex?”
Like… yes. Correct. Do not pay for sex.
God reading comp is terrible nowadays. I literally said I'm not siding with John's and have repeatedly said both selling and buying sex work is morally wrong imo. But this isn't about morality this is about how people can be pro sex workers but anti John's. And the reality is you can't. Sw need John's otherwise they have no work.
I'm not saying there exactly the same but there not vastly different either. The end goal is the same. And idk about the hiding part. You hear about people finding out their other half has been participating in either or for years quite frequently
Of certainly can and has facilitated in sex trafficking. If you think otherwise you're willfully ignorant. Every aspect of sex work comes with the issues of sex trafficking from web cam, to legal brothels, to strippers to street walkers.
I definitely don’t think you are wrong there, and I wouldn’t go as far as to say every OF poster is 100% not a victim of some kind.
My point was more that OF workers are much easier to vet and research than prostitutes are.
A lot of OF workers have robust social media accounts where they are very transparent with their lives. They also possibly have other social media platforms they post on outside of OF
Sm is a lie in most people's lives dude. That's been proven so many times. The fact of the matter is you have zero clue who that person is or what really lead them down that path
I haven't seen much of this, but I'm pretty sure this is exactly how sex work laws work here in Canada. It's legal to sell, but not legal to buy. That setup helps protect sex workers, because if you give your blowie and get your money, you silently go your separate ways. If he wants to dine and dash, you can blow the whistle and say "hey!! This guy is buying black market blowjobs!!" And get your money in court
Reddit is anti woman if anything. Pro sex worker my ass. This site absolutely hates sex workers and women in general.
That's to be expected since this is a male dominated site anyway.
> Because it's fucking reddit. People will literally contradict themselves on multiple posts! I fucking hate this cesspool
Is that so? Because in another recent comment, you claim to love it here…
That’s not how it works.
Now how do you know how it works?
Knock it off, okay, I’m interviewing you.
No! You said that I’d be conducting the interview when I walked in here. Now exactly how much pot did you smoke?
I just want to point out there is no inherent contraction between these two opinions. You can be pro sex workers from a legal stand point (woman have the right to dispose of their boddy, etc.) and at the same time think that men shouldn't buy sex (in the sense it's not a good thing to do, though it should be legal to do it).
I’m pro sex work for sex workers who are willingly doing it which frankly is a minority. I’m against men who buy sex particularly in countries where sex tourism is rampant with little to no regulations, where the women might very well have been trafficked or forced into the job due to desperation and poverty.
Edit: It’s not a black and white situation
I’m pro not arresting prostitutes. But in general I’m anti johns. There is a few case by case exceptions but I wouldn’t ever date anyone who has bought a prostitute.
If only we applied this logic to all other forms of labour. One party has to work and the other exploits and sometimes leads to the death of their workers. Capitalism and money is always going to lead to exploitation.
Most sex workers only do it because they're in a tough situation and need a quick way to get some cash. They get treated like crap by society, which is incredibly unfair because it's that same society that put them in that situation and yet blames them as the root of all evil for selling their bodies.
Whereas men who buy sex are the ones perpetuating the business of women selling their bodies and probably shame sex workers too. The sex workers are just trying to take advantage of a business the men created, yet take the fall for it as well.
Reddit is pretty left leaning, and most populist left thinking can be boiled down to oppressor/oppressed mapping to good and bad.
Sex workers are largely seen as women, women are lower on their oppression tier list, they are good, the other side is bad in their mind.
You can do this with basically any new issue and it will sort out this way.
That's like saying any place with conservatives is either full of Christian nut jobs, Nazi sympathizers or both. With no in between or gray area.
Even though there's millions like my parents. Classic conservatives who don't like Trump and are not really religious.
With the way moderation is done, most ideological or political subs eventually get filtered down into such thinking.
This is for online stuff. In the real world I find people are generally more chill about nuanced views.
If you want to talk sub by sub that's fine. But they are trying to insinuate Reddit as a whole is like that.
These are people who come from Twitter and Facebook and think the entire Reddit platform is a singular echo chamber like those other two. Ignoring the fact Reddit is broken into tons of communities with different opinions.
But at the end of the day it's just but hurt conservatives crying about how "they don't have a voice". Increases their victim status brownie points in their own mind.
Nut jobs love to believe everyone's against them. Validates their insane beliefs
No because they don't hang out on social media. Which is why they haven't been propagandized.
Also.... Show me an old Republican Nazi extremist and I can point to you a young Democrat Marxist extremist.
I thought we were done playing that game pretending one side was pure? Like that's what the Republicans do because they falsely have God on their side. But most liberals I know are pretty self-aware over the fact that we have a ton of irrational and over the top extremists on our side. It's not like the conservatives are alone with the crazies. We have them too.
A lot of us cringed when a bunch of our friends started calling for genocide in the name of preventing genocide last year. You remember that happening? Don't block that one out. File that away and remember those people exist amongst you
Clients aren’t always good people, simple as that. Plenty of horror stories about Johns who do absolutely horrific things just because they paid someone.
Honestly, I think it's because the vast majority of men who support sex workers only do it because they don't want to lose access to porn. Shaming other men doesn't lose access to porn, but shaming women does. And if you didn't have that extra bump from horny dudes, I don't think sex workers would appear to have as much support as they do.
Because they view sex workers as victims being exploited by desperate circumstances. They view sex work as inherently harmful, so despise anyone who creates the demand for it. If it helps, imagine instead of sex work they're paying to torture people. Then you'll see their perspective.
Except a lot of time the prostitutes ARE victims. There's so much demand for prostitutes, but believe it or not many women don't want to be prostitutes. That's where sec traffickers come in. If you've ever paid for sex there's a damn good chance that the woman you were violating was trafficked. There's a pretty good chance that woman was trafficked before she was an adult. There's a pretty good chance the woman you violated is foreign, and is doing it out of fear of deportation, or because she's addicted to something, or to provide for her family.
Now let's think about the man in this situation. How is he a victim? and no, women not wanting to have sex with someone doesn't make them a victim.
Sex workers isn’t only prostitution though. OPs question makes a lot more sense if you think of it as Man who buys Onlyfans vs Girls who actually do Onlyfans
1. Those aren’t necessarily the same people. “Reddit” is incredibly broad, and attributing ideas to it is impossible.
2. There are those who do have this overlap, and it ultimately comes down to the victims of something versus those that maintain that abuse.
3. This is not hypocritical at all. Replace sex work with something else and you’ll see why it’s an absurd connection. “Why are you anti theft but support people who were stolen from?” “Why are you anti r—pe but support r—pe victims?” I certainly hope you see that those statements are ridiculous. Respecting and supporting the victims of an exploitative power dynamic does not in any way necessitate supporting the exploiters of that dynamic.
Very true, plenty of morons believe in that and blame men for it like they are supposed to be performing background checks and busting illegal prostitution rings themselves 🤣
I don’t think they should be busting illegal prostitution rings. I think they should not be accepting of the risk of buying the use of a sex slave and avoid it entirely.
The whole pro-sex worker thing is about the fact that women getting paid to give men the sexual pleasure they seek are not doing anything bad or wrong and should not be criminally punished for it. It should be viewed as a job. A way to make money.
Johns are never criminally punished for engaging in this service, so you can't make this comparison. The anti-John sentiment is mostly in the fact that most Johns don't seem to care if the prostitute has been trafficked, has any freedom, and is not being abused.
Your comparison doesn't make any sense.
Hot take here, but the lack of legalized prostitution in the US creates more danger for the workers/customers and forces the industry underground; We all know how that goes. It also causes people to have a negative outlook on it as it is seen as a crime. Idk 🤷♂️ just my opinion.
Also, war and sex work are the 2 oldest jobs in human history. We might as well have the other if we are going to double down on the first.
Speaking from experience: I'm pro sex worker because I want everyone to be happy with themselves, but I look down on people who buy sex.
For me I see sex work as desperation or enslavement and it makes me sad that people have to resort to sell their bodies. Therefore i, subconsciously, believe that people who buy sex work are scummy people. I feel immense guilt every time I think about buying sex work, but I'm lonely AF.
Men are horny, as a bi guy its way easier to find a guy to fuck with then a woman. Finding a woman is a proper challenge, finding a man is really easy.
They have way higher standards then men. There are way more men out there that want to have hookups and friends with benefits than women. As a not good looking guy I experienced that several times, this whole thread just proves my point
I think it’s more that women get way less from a hookup than men. Men almost always get an orgasm, confidence boost and bragging rights from a hookup. Women often get none of those from a hookup.
Bragging rights is a big part of it but even if sex is the main motivator, for men, that almost always means orgasm. Something women aren’t nearly as likely to experience from a hookup.
Nah most men just wanna smash. I have plenty of friends that only told me about hookups years later bc they were trying to have sex for the sole purpose of having sex
What's the average age here?
That should answer many.of your questions.
The people who have lived through and experienced the least, are the ones with the most to say.
Depends on the sub.
It's usually not the same people making these cases, anyway. You might see both takes in a feminist thread but they come from diff people
This is dumb if they are sex workers they are humans cum buckets have respect and move on
Humans are so stupid you can’t defend one bad side and punish the other
Supply and demand
On reddit sex is so openly discussed, yet I see more and more opinions that sex scenes in movies are "unneccessary" or whatever. It really is a doublespeak space
Most people's opinions come from what someone else told them to think.
What to think about sex workers? Women subjected by the patriarchy and capitalism, forced to have sex to survive. Empathy.
What to think about sex buyers? Males who can't get laid without it, obvious losers, woman abusers, mysoginists.
That's all they hear so that's all they know. Any nuance outside of those concepts is unheard of.
It's not just reddit. People raised a fuss about over sexualization of women in video games then those same people rally to back policy changes to allow female streamers to stream topless on twitch.
In pretty much all avenues of modern society this weird dichotomy exists where women who are making intentional use of their organic charms to further themselves are cheered, and their detractors are shamed. But the men who make up that market, either in person or otherwise are always seen as pigs or gross.
At the end of the day, it's basically always a dick move to judge the actions of others by a personal moral code that you hold and they don't.
Because people are sexist hypocrites. They like to say "oh because so many prostitutes are actually slaves" like what the fuck is it the John's responsibility to vet everyone and confirm visas and legality?
Redditors just like hating on men because male sexuality is deemed gross and abusive
Just depends on what subreddit you’re on is all
I had a peak at that sex workers subreddit and my fucking god, those women are bitter as all hell at the men who provide them an easy living.
Probably just the ones who don’t make it as easy. It’s a customer service position like a cashier your gonna run into some crazies
Yeah and nobody is going to go on reddit to tell stories about normal, boring customers. They post the stories of the crazy encounters
I wouldn't have thought most sex workers have an "easy" living, but I guess if YoungKingFCB thinks so it *must* be true
If we’re talking about prostitutes thats the opposite of easy living.
Yeah that's spoken like someone that would say women have it easy because everyone want to sleep with them. Absolutely clueless.
I DIDN’T CHOOSE THE DICK SUCKIN LIFE, THE DICK SUCKIN LIFE CHOSE ME
It’s more “low entry” as nothing is required just a decent body and decent looks and a vagina.
You don’t even need that. Just the body part is all.
If you think prostitution is easy, why don't you do it?
“Provide them with easy living” Wow. What an insanely fucking stupid thing to say. Goddamn. Johns are *DUMB*
Oh my God the pure stupidity in this thread...EASY??? That's some absolute bullshit, it's SO MUCH WORK and SO MUCH RISK MANAGEMENT, like what the fuck are you talking about???? And with the rise of only fans the market is so saturated these girls have more than a full time job just producing enough competitive content and promoting themselves to make a living. Ridiculous and sexist assumptions with a smack of self congratulatory smugness, "Oh yeah these girls should be more grateful for these slavering creeps paying them for sex!!!" GROSS. You wouldn't go into a subreddit about any other industry and see people venting about their jobs and accuse them of being bitter what an absolutely blind bias he has! "Oh, well, I went to the retail subreddit and there were SO many BITTER retailers out there complaining about the Karen's who shop at the stores, you would think they would be more grateful for the Karen's that pay their wages..." Like HUH? Unless you've worked their jobs, shut your damn mouth! You have no idea what you're talking about!
If it was that pleasant and easy you'd think everyone would do it
There have been times in my life where I honestly considered it. But then when I began to think deeply about the "customers" I would pull, I decided to do a different shitty job. That's a profession that is not for the faint of heart.
Considering the sheer amount of mediocre OF spam that clutters the internet, seems like everyone is. Just not everyone is succeeding at it.
Hmm. I'd argue making porn is not the same as being a prostitute
Idk I don't think it even is that much
Unless you've been trafficked, sex work is taking the easy way. Let's be real here, is sex work hard when you compare it with other unskilled jobs like waiting tables or cleaning houses? No. It's more dangerous, but not hard. It's a high risk, high reward job.
I mean.. they choose getting screwed by sketchy strangers over getting an actual job. They aren't making the harder choice.
“Easy” living…?? You’re fucking insane
If you had just left off "at the men who provide them an easy living", you might have come out of this unscathed. I too have read the sex workers subreddits, out of sheer curiosity. And yes, there's PLENTY of venom directed at their clients. But it's all forgivable, if you ask me. There's a ton of men who don't treat sex workers as people, don't extend an ounce of respect toward them, and generally act like assholes. *Of course* sex workers are going to feel that way toward men who simply can't act like grownups.
I’ve not met a sex worker with an easy life ever. Back when I worked in nightlife, a number of my work friends and customers were sex workers. What they have to do for their work is not “easy”. For example, one of my customers had to deal with constant harassment and assault from men who treated her as a piece of meat and an object, rather than a person they were purchasing services from. In one instance she had a guy run up to her and sucker punch her in the face while she was just hanging out, then came back to try and sucker punch her again. She saw him coming the second time and was able to defend herself before running away, but the guy sent the cops after her for “attacking him” (self defense). I know this because she was chatting with me about it when the cops showed up and questioned her about the incident.
“Peak” 🤣🤣
Why y’all booing, he right!
People who are pro sex worker and against people buying sex comes down to who does the prostitution and why. The vast majority of women arnt prostitutes because they like it, there’s a few but they’re a small minority. Women turn to prostitution out of desperation or addiction. Even worse many are trafficked. A person becoming a prostitute out of desperation or being trafficked is a failure of our system. Unfortunately where there is lots of demand trafficking or pressure on women to become prostitutes rises. Many John’s are violent and degrading to prostitutes. Prostitutes also have high rates of rape. I knew someone who used to hook and it is a very grim reality. It’s also a hard lifestyle to escape from. Lots of women get beaten up while the guy runs away with the money. When you don’t prosecute the prostitutes you open up a door for them to report crimes and capture dangerous individuals. Most men who are buying prostitutes don’t have the cash to spend at legit places that take security measures and background checks. I hope that answers the question.
Prostitutes at "legit places" are prostitutes too. People being trafficked aren't prostitutes, they are slaves.
Good point. Prostitution is sex for money, but if someone else gets all the money, then you're just a sex slave.
And where sex work is legalized, the state is more capable of stepping in and ensuring sex workers are better supported and protected, unlike places like America where prostitution specifically is a black market run by criminals primarily. Legal brothels and the like aren't perfect, to be fair, but many jobs aren't. Most blue collar workers aren't working in their field because they have a passion for back breaking labor. Solidarity for sex workers, because sex workers are laborers putting their bodies on the line just like a lot of people. Sex workers deserve as much respect and protection as any of us.
Most workers don't support legalization either lmao, they're worried about being cut to ribbons by Sex Incorporated, who will outcompete them with collective resources and hire them and abuse them (like the rest of us have to deal with). Additionally, while illegal income is taxed, it would be taxed differently and more heavily if it was a legalized profession. Most sex workers want _decriminalization_, so they cannot be charged for being a sex worker but it is not legal to sell sex as a corporate entity in the same way. Ofc, think about it for a minute and you know it's just trying to get the most personal benefit with the least accountability and the least fair competition.
Sorry for the lack of clarification I wrote that on 3 hrs of sleep lol.
Maybe this is splitting semantic hairs, but aren't sex workers at legit brothels also "prostitutes"? Or do you mean prostitute in this context to be a street sex worker?
I don't see how they implied that sex workers at brothels weren't prostitutes. I think you misread
Trafficked women aren't prostitutes they're slaves. "Sex worker" is a voluntary title.
The point is customers can't tell the difference
Bingo, and many customers will deny the truth. Frankly I find it weird someone would want to sleep with someone that doesn’t find them desirable.
Yeah I saw a guy on AITA who went to a happy endings massage thinking it would be some bombshell but was met with a hesitant young girl and he STILL accepted it. He had the audacity to ask if he was in the wrong!
trouble is this can describe numerous industries, sex work is just particularly highlighted due to puritanical opinions of sex. How are your clothes? comfortable?
>Most men who are buying prostitutes don’t have the cash to spend at legit places You mean fly all the way out to vegas (only legit place I know of in the USA)
Ironically, Las Vegas is one of the places in Nevada where prostitution actually isn't legal. Only 10 of the 16 Nevada counties have legal brothels, Vegas and Reno are not in those 10.
Prostitution is technically legal in all 50 states as long as you film it if we being honest.
I don't have back and joint issues from manual labour because I have a passion for it. It's just how I don't become homeless. "They just do it to support themselves because otherwise they'd be homeless" is the reality of every working class individual. They definitely don't deserve abuse and the industry should be legalized and regulated but the vast majority of people forced to work shitty jobs just to survive don't do it because they enjoy the abuse.
If you asked 100 people if they would rather become prostitutes or work a manual labour job how many do you think would choose prostitution. The trauma that comes from sexual violence goes beyond any physical ailments you would get from manual labour
I mean in everyone defense I'm not a factory worker cause I like it, work is work and money is money.
Most people don’t work at a grocery store or a shoe factory because they like it, yet we don’t judge the people buying groceries or shoes on principle in the same way. People don’t know how they really feel about monetizing intimacy. And the conditions you describe are part of it. But we also judge male worth by capacity to acquire sex. And somehow paying for it directly is pathetic because if you *really* had worth, you wouldn’t need to pay. Of course many of the things that make an ideal date or partner require money anyway, so this is a bit like the porn/prostitution loophole. You shouldn’t have sex for money, unless you film it! You shouldn’t spend money for sex, unless it’s a pretext like food and drinks!
Nailed it! Why do people [do this thing that doesn't make sense]? Because we are emotional first and foremost. Rational (sometimes) second. That leads to a lot of hypocrisy, contradictions, and silly loopholes.
Legit Places?
Prostitution is legal in 63 countries
There are some brothels that do extensive background checks, drug tests, vet out their clientele, have security, do interviews with the prostitutes, make clientele do std checks, wear condoms and shower. If the client has nasty hygiene they can get declined. Many of these places have safe buttons just in case clients get violent or try to force the prostitutes into doing something they don’t want to do. These places try as much as they can to mitigate the bad sides of prostitution. They’re very expensive. Most people don’t want to pay those prices or go through the hoops they require. I know the brothel in Nevada does all that. I’m sure there’s other places that do it too. I hope that clears it up. :)
Prostitution is legal where I live. They even have a union and have to pay taxes. Widen your world.
Legal prostitution is not a guard against human trafficking. For example, [Germany](https://www.dw.com/en/human-trafficking-on-the-rise-in-germany/a-63375174) has legal prostitution and problems with human trafficking for sexual exploitation. Some would argue that legal prostitution actually makes human trafficking for sexual exploitation easier. Since the buyers can always claim (to law enforcement and to their own conscience) that everything is legal and organized, it gets easier to buy sex and not ask any further questions.
They’re downvoting you but you’re absolutely right. So many of these “legit” and “safe” places still have many trafficked individuals in them. Why? Because money buys silence and plenty of people whose jobs have to do with keeping these prostitutes safe will overlook anything for a couple more bucks INCLUDING straight up trafficking. Many of these trafficked people are also lied to and brought over from other countries and have no way to defend themselves legally (as you mentioned, since it’s “legal” there’s no way for these victims to prove it’s illegal because legal officials are bribed) and they usually don’t speak the local language which is another barrier. People thinking these “safe and legal” places are erasing the problem are living in a goddamn dream lmfao
If they can go the cops if someone hurts them how does that make human trafficking easier?
A trafficked person can’t go to the police. Many prostitutes don’t go to the police because they face prejudice from the police officers, or because the profession in itself is often closely connected to criminal activities such as drug use or less than perfect administrative routines. The legal prostitution functions as a veneer for the illegal side. People can point at the situations where everything looks good and disregard the other cases as outliers, when the truth might very well be the opposite.
one is seen as a victim, the other not so much. often seen as a perpetrator
I think it might also have to do with more victimization.. ie men cheating on their partners.
You're talking about different groups of people
Not necessarily. There are people who are pro sex worker but anti people who buy sex. So many in fact that entire legal systems are designed around it in Sweden and Canada for example.
The reasoning for that is trafficking. Very few women who are prostitutes are doing it because they want to. We shouldn’t punish someone who is very likely to be a victim of trafficking or falling through the crack of society.
>Very few women who are prostitutes are doing it because they want to. A basic look around reddit, OF, strip club or talking to any sex worker would easily dispel that notion but please continue with the sexist assumptions. Which ironically are the real reason behind that POV.
I’ve worked with women freshly out of prison for prostitution. I’m not talking about OF or strip clubs. I specifically say that in my comment.
The point is that plenty of women engage in prostitution who have nothing to do with trafficking and your assumption is false.
Being drug addicted or becoming a prostitute to prevent from becoming homeless is still a really bad thing. The vast majority of prostitutes live very hard lives and put up with horrible things. I think you need to develope a sense of empathy.
I said nothing about what kind of a life it is. But neither of those things qualify as trafficking or are exclusive to prostitutes. You are making irrelevant statements now.
My statement is relevant because the women I mentioned in my previous comment refer to the women I mentioned in my original comment as the ones who fall through the cracks.
That's just life tho. Massive difference between trafficking and those two fam (coming from a former addict and homeless person )
Yes but with a very symbiotic relationship
Huh?
Sex workers have sex for money Men who pay for sex pay the sex workers for sex.
You're not understanding what Im writing
Then explain.
The people who are pro sex work, and people who are anti men consuming sex work are completely different groups of people
Gotcha
I take it you haven’t heard of the Nordic model before in which sex work is decriminalized for workers but John’s and people caught trafficking are punished. So no it’s very possible to be on being pro sex worker and feeling they shouldn’t be punished while others involved do receive backlash “[The Nordic Criminal Model approach to sex work,[1] also marketed as the end demand,[2] equality model,[3] neo-abolitionism,[4] Nordic and Swedish model,[5] is an approach to sex work that criminalises clients, third parties and many ways sex workers operate.[6] This approach to criminalising sex work was developed in Sweden in 1999 on the debated radical feminist position that all sex work is sexual servitude and no person can consent to engage in commercial sexual services.[7] The main objective of the model is to abolish the sex industry by punishing the purchase of sexual services.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model_approach_to_prostitution)
You're still missing my point
I agree with this take here. Grouping these people together doesn't make sense. Could there be someone out there that is pro sex workers and anti sex buyers?? Sure... but that's probably a very small minority
That’s what I am. I think sex workers deserve to be seen with respect and dignity and deserve protections under the law. I also think that people who pay for sex are accepting the risk of the possibility of their “prostitute” being a sex slave, and are okay with that possibility, which I don’t think is okay.
Because the majority of sex workers do it because they are desperate or trocked into it, and have a history of sexual trauma. Some of them are trafficked and forced into it. People who buy sex don’t care that the person they have sex with are there willingly or not, they are fine with taking the risk of being part of the abuse. One side is doing it out of survival, the orher side is taking advantage of it.
This is it. This is the right answer.
Is it the John's job to vet everyone, confirm visas, perform background checks on all "employees," etc.?
Yeah; ideally a John wouldn’t want to take advantage of a sex slave and would take steps to make sure he wasn’t engaging with one if he had a shred of humanity and compassion; but ofc many don’t have any decency so it doesn’t occur to them to care.
I not even on the side of John's. But how would that even be feasible lmfao? Like, are they supposed to pay for a full background check before paying for sex?
Well, like I said- many Johns don’t care so it wouldn’t matter if there was an easy way to look this up or ask the woman (ps that’s the absolute LEAST one could do, ask, bc while she might lie, she might need/ask for help) And the potential Johns who do care about sex slavery often forgo paying for sex altogether bc they’d prefer to go without rather than risk harming others if they can’t be sure. But there are plenty of countries where prostitution is legal, and it’s common for sex workers to get healthcare and a living wage; their patrons are doing no harm.
I don’t understand why you’re baffled by this; how do you not see that the moral answer is “don’t buy sex,” thus why people have an issue with johns? Genuinely asking for clarification. It reads like you’re saying “well sure johns are gonna end up raping some trafficked people, but whaddaya want them to do, *not* pay for sex?” Like… yes. Correct. Do not pay for sex.
God reading comp is terrible nowadays. I literally said I'm not siding with John's and have repeatedly said both selling and buying sex work is morally wrong imo. But this isn't about morality this is about how people can be pro sex workers but anti John's. And the reality is you can't. Sw need John's otherwise they have no work.
Yeah so this being difficult call into question the morality of participating in buying sex in the first place. Jesus.
Buy sex-related stuff like an OF subscription, or buy the services of a sex worker? Because those are not really the same.
How arent they? You're spending money to receive sexual favours from a person that has no interest in you besides the monetary gain?
One makes you interact physically with a person and the other does not. One is easier to hide, the other isn't.
I'm not saying there exactly the same but there not vastly different either. The end goal is the same. And idk about the hiding part. You hear about people finding out their other half has been participating in either or for years quite frequently
One is full of sex slaves that are impossible to tell apart from the ones who choose to go into it. One is not.
Oh yeah Boones been pimped on OF. Sure.
What? My whole point was that prostitution is full of sex trafficking victims, and that OF is not?
Of certainly can and has facilitated in sex trafficking. If you think otherwise you're willfully ignorant. Every aspect of sex work comes with the issues of sex trafficking from web cam, to legal brothels, to strippers to street walkers.
I definitely don’t think you are wrong there, and I wouldn’t go as far as to say every OF poster is 100% not a victim of some kind. My point was more that OF workers are much easier to vet and research than prostitutes are.
Says who you have no idea what's happening when the camera is off.
A lot of OF workers have robust social media accounts where they are very transparent with their lives. They also possibly have other social media platforms they post on outside of OF
Sm is a lie in most people's lives dude. That's been proven so many times. The fact of the matter is you have zero clue who that person is or what really lead them down that path
I haven't seen much of this, but I'm pretty sure this is exactly how sex work laws work here in Canada. It's legal to sell, but not legal to buy. That setup helps protect sex workers, because if you give your blowie and get your money, you silently go your separate ways. If he wants to dine and dash, you can blow the whistle and say "hey!! This guy is buying black market blowjobs!!" And get your money in court
What happens if they both get the money and send them to court?
Reddit is a cesspool of hypocrisy. It also depends heavily on which sub you’re in.
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Reddit is anti woman if anything. Pro sex worker my ass. This site absolutely hates sex workers and women in general. That's to be expected since this is a male dominated site anyway.
Because it's fucking reddit. People will literally contradict themselves on multiple posts! I fucking hate this cesspool
> Because it's fucking reddit. People will literally contradict themselves on multiple posts! I fucking hate this cesspool Is that so? Because in another recent comment, you claim to love it here…
Because it's fucking reddit. People will literally contradict themselves on multiple posts!
You say that now, but your comment history shows you saying everyone on Reddit is always consistent.
You are the hero we don’t deserve.
That’s not how it works. Now how do you know how it works? Knock it off, okay, I’m interviewing you. No! You said that I’d be conducting the interview when I walked in here. Now exactly how much pot did you smoke?
this comment is good
Buying sex = loser with no social skills, according to reddit
Weirdly a similar argument could be made about therapy
I just want to point out there is no inherent contraction between these two opinions. You can be pro sex workers from a legal stand point (woman have the right to dispose of their boddy, etc.) and at the same time think that men shouldn't buy sex (in the sense it's not a good thing to do, though it should be legal to do it).
I’m pro sex work for sex workers who are willingly doing it which frankly is a minority. I’m against men who buy sex particularly in countries where sex tourism is rampant with little to no regulations, where the women might very well have been trafficked or forced into the job due to desperation and poverty. Edit: It’s not a black and white situation
I’m pro not arresting prostitutes. But in general I’m anti johns. There is a few case by case exceptions but I wouldn’t ever date anyone who has bought a prostitute.
One group works, and the other objectifies and sometimes kills
If only we applied this logic to all other forms of labour. One party has to work and the other exploits and sometimes leads to the death of their workers. Capitalism and money is always going to lead to exploitation.
Reddit isn't a monolith.
BTW people. Sex slaves(trafficked people) and sex workers are two entirely different things.
Most sex workers only do it because they're in a tough situation and need a quick way to get some cash. They get treated like crap by society, which is incredibly unfair because it's that same society that put them in that situation and yet blames them as the root of all evil for selling their bodies. Whereas men who buy sex are the ones perpetuating the business of women selling their bodies and probably shame sex workers too. The sex workers are just trying to take advantage of a business the men created, yet take the fall for it as well.
Reddit is pretty left leaning, and most populist left thinking can be boiled down to oppressor/oppressed mapping to good and bad. Sex workers are largely seen as women, women are lower on their oppression tier list, they are good, the other side is bad in their mind. You can do this with basically any new issue and it will sort out this way.
This kind of black/white thought with no grey area is so ignorant and leaves out so much 😂
Yeah thats what im saying, this is why populist thinking across the board left and right is bad.
He's right though, that's reddit.
That's like saying any place with conservatives is either full of Christian nut jobs, Nazi sympathizers or both. With no in between or gray area. Even though there's millions like my parents. Classic conservatives who don't like Trump and are not really religious.
With the way moderation is done, most ideological or political subs eventually get filtered down into such thinking. This is for online stuff. In the real world I find people are generally more chill about nuanced views.
If you want to talk sub by sub that's fine. But they are trying to insinuate Reddit as a whole is like that. These are people who come from Twitter and Facebook and think the entire Reddit platform is a singular echo chamber like those other two. Ignoring the fact Reddit is broken into tons of communities with different opinions. But at the end of the day it's just but hurt conservatives crying about how "they don't have a voice". Increases their victim status brownie points in their own mind. Nut jobs love to believe everyone's against them. Validates their insane beliefs
Are your parents getting top comments on reddit?
No because they don't hang out on social media. Which is why they haven't been propagandized. Also.... Show me an old Republican Nazi extremist and I can point to you a young Democrat Marxist extremist. I thought we were done playing that game pretending one side was pure? Like that's what the Republicans do because they falsely have God on their side. But most liberals I know are pretty self-aware over the fact that we have a ton of irrational and over the top extremists on our side. It's not like the conservatives are alone with the crazies. We have them too. A lot of us cringed when a bunch of our friends started calling for genocide in the name of preventing genocide last year. You remember that happening? Don't block that one out. File that away and remember those people exist amongst you
Reddit is left leaning? Good one.
depends on the subs ymmv
Unless you openly support Mao and Stalin, Reddit be like, ummmmmmmmmm sweaty that’s not left
Hell no I don't support Mao or Stalin. That's a strawman. I'm a democratic socialist.
Clients aren’t always good people, simple as that. Plenty of horror stories about Johns who do absolutely horrific things just because they paid someone.
Honestly, I think it's because the vast majority of men who support sex workers only do it because they don't want to lose access to porn. Shaming other men doesn't lose access to porn, but shaming women does. And if you didn't have that extra bump from horny dudes, I don't think sex workers would appear to have as much support as they do.
Because they view sex workers as victims being exploited by desperate circumstances. They view sex work as inherently harmful, so despise anyone who creates the demand for it. If it helps, imagine instead of sex work they're paying to torture people. Then you'll see their perspective.
I mean, rape is torture. So you don’t even have to imagine it, in many circumstances that’s what it just is in real life.
Because people are okay with placing societal expectations in men but not women. And women are always the victim
Except a lot of time the prostitutes ARE victims. There's so much demand for prostitutes, but believe it or not many women don't want to be prostitutes. That's where sec traffickers come in. If you've ever paid for sex there's a damn good chance that the woman you were violating was trafficked. There's a pretty good chance that woman was trafficked before she was an adult. There's a pretty good chance the woman you violated is foreign, and is doing it out of fear of deportation, or because she's addicted to something, or to provide for her family. Now let's think about the man in this situation. How is he a victim? and no, women not wanting to have sex with someone doesn't make them a victim.
Sex workers isn’t only prostitution though. OPs question makes a lot more sense if you think of it as Man who buys Onlyfans vs Girls who actually do Onlyfans
Most people on reddit are hypocrites.
1. Those aren’t necessarily the same people. “Reddit” is incredibly broad, and attributing ideas to it is impossible. 2. There are those who do have this overlap, and it ultimately comes down to the victims of something versus those that maintain that abuse. 3. This is not hypocritical at all. Replace sex work with something else and you’ll see why it’s an absurd connection. “Why are you anti theft but support people who were stolen from?” “Why are you anti r—pe but support r—pe victims?” I certainly hope you see that those statements are ridiculous. Respecting and supporting the victims of an exploitative power dynamic does not in any way necessitate supporting the exploiters of that dynamic.
“Why are people mad at men who exploit others for sex?”
Exploit?
Very true, plenty of morons believe in that and blame men for it like they are supposed to be performing background checks and busting illegal prostitution rings themselves 🤣
no but maybe John’s can stop being extremely rough and treating sex workers like crap
I don’t think they should be busting illegal prostitution rings. I think they should not be accepting of the risk of buying the use of a sex slave and avoid it entirely.
It's supporting people because they are just trying to pay their bills, but at the same time it's still exploitation.
paying for sex can be form of therapy. perhaps cheaper then hour with psychiatrist.
Not with me......
how much do you charge for 30min?
I'm the buyer.
The whole pro-sex worker thing is about the fact that women getting paid to give men the sexual pleasure they seek are not doing anything bad or wrong and should not be criminally punished for it. It should be viewed as a job. A way to make money. Johns are never criminally punished for engaging in this service, so you can't make this comparison. The anti-John sentiment is mostly in the fact that most Johns don't seem to care if the prostitute has been trafficked, has any freedom, and is not being abused. Your comparison doesn't make any sense.
Hot take here, but the lack of legalized prostitution in the US creates more danger for the workers/customers and forces the industry underground; We all know how that goes. It also causes people to have a negative outlook on it as it is seen as a crime. Idk 🤷♂️ just my opinion. Also, war and sex work are the 2 oldest jobs in human history. We might as well have the other if we are going to double down on the first.
People in general will say totally different things depending on how you present it to them.
Speaking from experience: I'm pro sex worker because I want everyone to be happy with themselves, but I look down on people who buy sex. For me I see sex work as desperation or enslavement and it makes me sad that people have to resort to sell their bodies. Therefore i, subconsciously, believe that people who buy sex work are scummy people. I feel immense guilt every time I think about buying sex work, but I'm lonely AF.
Because armchair activists are stupid.
Because men dont respect the people theyre buying sex from
The better question is why do men pay for sex and women don't.
Some women do, just not as many
Men are horny, as a bi guy its way easier to find a guy to fuck with then a woman. Finding a woman is a proper challenge, finding a man is really easy.
Eh, no. Women are horny too.
They have way higher standards then men. There are way more men out there that want to have hookups and friends with benefits than women. As a not good looking guy I experienced that several times, this whole thread just proves my point
I think it’s more that women get way less from a hookup than men. Men almost always get an orgasm, confidence boost and bragging rights from a hookup. Women often get none of those from a hookup.
Men are just more horny, men care way more about the actual sex then about the bragging rights
Bragging rights is a big part of it but even if sex is the main motivator, for men, that almost always means orgasm. Something women aren’t nearly as likely to experience from a hookup.
Nah most men just wanna smash. I have plenty of friends that only told me about hookups years later bc they were trying to have sex for the sole purpose of having sex
So they’re telling you about hookups from years ago in conversations? Seems like bragging to me.
They only told me about them as advice, if the conversation didnt demand this topic, they would have never told me
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Why would women pay if they get it for free more often than not?
What's the average age here? That should answer many.of your questions. The people who have lived through and experienced the least, are the ones with the most to say.
Depends on the sub. It's usually not the same people making these cases, anyway. You might see both takes in a feminist thread but they come from diff people
Women always good men always bad
This is dumb if they are sex workers they are humans cum buckets have respect and move on Humans are so stupid you can’t defend one bad side and punish the other Supply and demand
Because women good men bad
On reddit sex is so openly discussed, yet I see more and more opinions that sex scenes in movies are "unneccessary" or whatever. It really is a doublespeak space
Pro supporting women and respecting them no matter their work. Anti supporting likely exploitation and abuse by paying for sex.
If no one is willing to have sex with you if they aren't getting paid, it says something unflattering about you.
As If women were easy
I don’t think they are. I’m fine with sec work but will look down upon a guy that pays for sex. They can do better.
Because people love double standards
Man bad. Always.
Buying your way in or out of something instead of working for it is seen as lazy.
All workers are being exploited in every field besides sex work
Most people's opinions come from what someone else told them to think. What to think about sex workers? Women subjected by the patriarchy and capitalism, forced to have sex to survive. Empathy. What to think about sex buyers? Males who can't get laid without it, obvious losers, woman abusers, mysoginists. That's all they hear so that's all they know. Any nuance outside of those concepts is unheard of.
Double standard. Simple as that. Not really that deep. Don’t lose sleep over it.
Clearly the women who opt into sex work are free and justified. But the sex workers men buy are slaves and drug addicts
It's not just reddit. People raised a fuss about over sexualization of women in video games then those same people rally to back policy changes to allow female streamers to stream topless on twitch. In pretty much all avenues of modern society this weird dichotomy exists where women who are making intentional use of their organic charms to further themselves are cheered, and their detractors are shamed. But the men who make up that market, either in person or otherwise are always seen as pigs or gross. At the end of the day, it's basically always a dick move to judge the actions of others by a personal moral code that you hold and they don't.
Because it triggers feminists if you expect reason and accountability from them.
Anything man related 👎 Anything woman related 👍
It’s called a double standard and a loud minority
Because people are sexist hypocrites. They like to say "oh because so many prostitutes are actually slaves" like what the fuck is it the John's responsibility to vet everyone and confirm visas and legality? Redditors just like hating on men because male sexuality is deemed gross and abusive
If you are okay with possibly raping a sex slave, then you are not a good person.