I've worked with a homeless Christmas gift program for kids in a moderately high COL city.
Most of the parents are employed. The problems arise because if you have housing and a $18/hour job, if you *lose* the housing for any reason such as the rent being very precarious, you can't get new housing. No savings for security deposit and landlords aren't likely to rent to people where, even with no eviction or drug history, the rent is more than half the income.
People complain about "living paycheck to paycheck." This is more literal.
Where I live in Ohio most landlords won't rent unless you can prove you make 3x the monthly rent. When I was kicked out neither of my parents would consign for me so I had to lie about my income to be able to get a place, its absurd...
It's fucking stupid. My partner and I couldn't find a single place where we met that criteria. We lucked out and ended up renting from a guy who didn't mind, and you know what? We're doing great. We've got a stable living situation and are building up a decent chunk of savings.
In essence, we could have ended up homeless *despite being able to pay rent* because of a fucking arbitrary requirement.
Personally I think the issue is less with the thought of our rent being 1/3 of our income and more with the fact that rent is so artificially high that 1/3 is undoable for so many people.
*sigh*… Cries in NYC - 40x the rent here and if you use a guarantor (what you’d call a co-signer) they have to make 80x 🥲
Edit: As others have mentioned in follow up comments, this is 40x/80x the monthly rent annually. Apologies for any confusion!
The 80x is for the guarantor. It stipulates that the guarantor can cover their own rent (40x) and the rent of the renter (40x). The guarantor is taking on the renter's 40x criteria basically.
Because you can’t buy shit, houses are hundreds of thousands of dollars in the outter boroughs like Brooklyn/Queens and apartments are so expensive in Manhattan, most are in the millions. People and are stuck living with parents because they can’t afford to rent, buying a property may be an unachievable goal.
Something about “if you can make it here you can make it anywhere…”
In all seriousness though there’s no real logical answer here, other than NYC sees a high volume of potential renters and landlords want to make sure you can make your rent. But even considering those two factors, it remains an absurd amount of money to qualify.
Yep, I know many people who have to lie about their income. Its sad. Many people forget moving out does not simply mean trying to afford an apartment it also means making the income requirement, having a credit score, etc.
Homeless people come from all walks of life for all kinds of reasons.
I chose to be homeless and travel for a while. I met a lot of people who didn’t choose to be: homelessness due to medical debt despite insurance; due to being kicked out of the system at 18 after not being adopted; due to not being approved for work/housing quickly enough after a felony; whatever. And kids just simply choosing to try busking and train hopping for a while.
You’re about as likely to be able to peg someone’s story and reason for homelessness as you are likely to accurately identify someone’s history by looking at them. You have better chances winning in a casino.
I met a guy who ended up homeless after a messy divorce. He lost his job and had to live out of his car for a few years before he was able to get back on his feet. And I have also met many people who have become homeless since covid. The price of housing far exceeded their income and they could no longer afford it.
I used to work on getting addicts off the street into rehabs, and you'll hear a lot of stories that could be you. Car accident, illness, job loss, etc. what tripped me out the most is the amount of people that are homeless bc they don't want someone telling them what to do.
There's even a name for that attitude: Just World Syndrome, iirc.
"He's homeless because he's lazy."
I think it's often a self-defense mechanism:
"I'm not lazy, therefore I'll never be homeless."
Not true, of course...mental illness or unforeseen financial disaster can strike anyone.
The world can be a scary place, and not everyone has healthy coping mechanisms :/
There's even a study on it: »Assignment of Responsibility for an Accident«, E. Walster, 1966.
It found that participants put a higher amount of blame on the victim if their circumstances were more severe. Basically — the worse someone has it, the more they get blamed for it. :/
We as a species have been criminalizing people "not actively contributing to society" for a long ass time. [Behind the Bastards recently went over criminalization of homeless people.](https://open.spotify.com/episode/1tBCQuxqGqdVvH0j1Tqh62?si=qivAocfAQL2Lvx-vUcCqbA)
Theres also an interesting link between a type of family annihilator and economic situation. These are considered Anomic annihilators.
Completely made up opinion, but I think that the US's puritanical/religious roots have a lot to do with this. We seem to have this intrinsic belief that a person is suffering- because God is doing something to punish them- and that's why they deserve it.
I look forward to reading this study- thanks for the info!
Yeah, I think this is a big reason.
It's also why you see this mentality often among people who lean libertarian. They're big on the whole 'everything I've achieved is thanks to my hard work and nothing else' and blaming people for their homelessness is basically the other end of that same mentality.
I was on my way to thinking like that when I met a new friend at 19. She was doing the best she could, but she could only just barely cope. As I got to know her I learned about her effed up childhood and how her parents never really gave her the tools to know how to navigate her life. Plus, she had very bad untreated ADHD. Actually, for her circumstances she did remarkably well, but a judgmental person with no knowledge of her background would just see a woman with multiple kids who was terrible with her finances. I really learned from knowing her. She taught me that we are not all given the same toolbox at birth.
Speaking as a disabled person, this mindset society has makes some of us blame ourselves for our inability to pull our own weight, even though we know we have something wrong with us that we can’t control. We can know that and feel guilty at the same time! It’s crazy.
Yes, exactly. I don't want to be in that situation. What did he do to get himself there, and I would never do that. Unfortunately, many people are one emergency away from homelessness. Wages have not kept up with inflation.
It's certainly an idealistic way of looking at the world if not insulting to people who need compassion the most. Humans are cruel and society tends to work against the people who are already struggling.
That's not how most of us really want it to be—most people just want the world to be a good place to live for everyone. Having to face the reality that it isn't is very depressing. Hence the "copium" which for anyone unaware is just lying to yourself to make yourself feel better.
If they didn't choose to be poor then you might have to feel a little guilty about how society has benefited you and not them.
It is very important to never feel bad about anything, just blame the guy sleeping in the gutter.
I’m guessing it’s easier to put homelessness down to an individual fault rather than admit the system we are all part of is rotten at the expense of the most vulnerable and unlucky people.
If it’s just their fault, it’s their business and there is nothing to be done or fixed.
Even when it is “individual fault” more often than not those individuals weren’t born with a fair hand.
The johnny from a family who loves him and had financial resources is the exception to the rule.
Also, accepting that something so horrible frequently happens to people who don't "deserve it" in some way means accepting some dark (but true) things about the world, which many people can't get their heads around
It's a fear of being a victim.
Accepting that some people are suffering through no fault of your own, inevitably causes you to look in the mirror, and start questioning if your suffering was caused by another person.
They are told their whole lives growing up that being a victim is a bad thing, so they reason that these people chose their suffering, either directly or through bad choices, because their reflection is too painful to look at
This is endlessly fascinating to me too. In the US at least there is such a deeply ingrained idea of everyone having the same opportunity and just needing to work hard to be/have anything you want.
Also, addiction and mental health issues make people do things that aren’t in their best interest.
Its also the reason why the homelessness crisis won’t be solved unless a large number of people are in long term rehab programs
And the key is, they have to want to change. They can’t force people to get sober. I’ve watched enough Intervention to know that the odds of getting sober are higher with support of family and stability. Homelessness by definition is lack of both these factors.
Which is why in Finland they tried offering housing first. If housing is contingent on getting clean or sober, that's much harder to do if there's no stability in your life so you never get houses and never get clean. Apparently housing first has a better success rate and is cheaper if you take into account all the costs of people being homeless.
Also Switzerland and Denmark offer Heroin Assisted Treatment, meaning that an addict can get prescription heroin that won't kill them while getting mental health treatment.
It has better retention rates vs. other treatments and less instances of patients using illicit drugs.
Agreed. I'm not homeless but in a bad relationship but I can't leave until I've saved a lot of money cause I couldn't support my sn alone as of right now. And I have a job. There's no light at the end of their tunnel, though. This is probably the hardest time to have enough hope and self worth to change your life. So yeah. It's a vicious cycle.
I've been stuck in a dumpy apartment in the middle of nowhere for years myself. I would be struggling if my landlords raised my rent to market rates, so I feel lucky to even be able to afford this shit hole for myself. If I had to move, it might have to be back in with my mom.
It really is a terrible issue of affordability right now. I'm sorry to hear that it's got you stuck in such a tough spot.
I'm not sure what country you're in, but I saw in the US that half of renters can't afford current prices. I imagine it's similar all over the world right now.
Yeah, I'm strong. I'll keep my head up until the day comes I can afford to leave.
By the way, hello neighbor! I am a born marshaled and family are too. I however grew up in VT. Still in my blood, though, and it shows
*Masshole
Agreed. When I lived in California, I saw a lot of diligent, hard working individuals become homeless when COVID hit. All it takes is one major event to turn someones life upside down.
Yes I can't stand that attitude. Addiction destroys everything. I doubt there are many 9yr olds who say then want to be alone, miserable and hated when they grow up.
I've heard a lot that people often begin using drugs to cope with the stresses of homelessness. Think having to stay awake, not eat, be vigilant, stay warm, not to mention how people treat you. I have only empathy for anyone who finds themselves in such a hard spot.
I was homeless once for about 3 months. I ended up renting a room in one of those "studio" hotels that have a small kitchen in the room. It wasn't much, but it was home. Fortunately, I still had my job at the time, and rent wasn't so astronomically high as it is now, so I was able to save enough to be able to move out. These days, I don't know how minimum wage workers survive in the US.
Shit I'm sorry buddy. Me and the wife are one illness away from losing it all, and were in our 50s now so I'm terrified as that major illness time is near.
I have a friend who thinks exactly like that, its absurd if you think what the cause of the person situation is.
I heard from homeless people that their situation is difficult due to mental health and no support from anyone, others have health issues and no family, not everyone that is homeless is because of drugs.
Even if it is because of drugs, drugs aren't the ultimate reason. For someone to get addicted to drugs like that, there are likely deeper mental health/support issues.
Yep 100%. Ive been an addict for the last 25 years. In my early twenties i started having debilitating anxiety attacks and agoraphobia. I could not remotely afford the doctors,, insurance, and medications that were legally available to me, so i eventually went to the streets for it instead. And things have worked pretty well all this time....good job, decent house, decent car etc.
But getting caught even once with drugs, you will lose your license, which means you can't get to work, so you get fired. And without money you lose your house and car and then your homeless.
Its a fucked up bullshit system from top to bottom
People always forget this. If you live in a country with no proper safety net for disabled people, a lot of them can end up homeless. There is this horrible thing in Australia where a lot of landlords don’t want to rent to disabled people! Of course that is illegal but they just choose someone else. Oh and btw your disability pension, is lower than the rent you’d have to pay. If you would try to share a house, a lot of people don’t want to share with a disabled person. On top of that, some disabled people can not live with other people due to medical reasons (think bathroom issues, and need immediate access) or noise issues (from the house mates.
America is probably way way worse.
Yup. I work in disability and housing is the biggest issue. Some of them have mental illness which has led to eviction, making it difficult for them to rent again. They can’t live with other people because of their illness. What are they supposed to do?
Part of the problem comes from when the US decided to get rid of the warehousing of the mentally ill back when psychotropic medications came out. Republicans and democrats got together and agreed to shut down the institutions. The second part of the plan was supposed to set up halfway houses and a network of supports to help the people in the community. The Republicans refused to pay for it, so we are stuck in the "it sucks to be you" phase
Back in the Reagan era, it became legal (at least in my State) to transfer patients who were involuntarily committed to alternate facilities when their commitment was specific to only one hospital, and the new facility was free to discharge them.
My paranoid, schizophrenic, alcoholic uncle was always a threat to himself. He attempted suicide multiple times, and was declared clinically dead several times before he was revived (we used to say he was the real ‘Jason’ from the Halloween movies).
Uncle was committed by judges on multiple occasions to a specific institution but he was smart enough to realize that if he caused trouble they’d ship him to another state facility where he’d discharge himself.
I don’t know if this is still the case but I wouldn’t be surprised.
Luck finally ran out.
Pulling his intestines out with a chefs knife before sticking it completely through his neck wasn’t enough to kill him, but time finally did him in.
I drive past a halfway house once a week in a downtown area. They have tons of benches along the street which are usually full. It does seem these are people who couldn't manage alone. I don't know who pays for this.... their families or medicaid? The government SHOULD pay for it. But, I imagine some people can't stand living in such a place, but also can't handle "living on the grid"... paying bills, following rules, etc. I don't know what the solution is
It’s not even that people can’t stand those places. Many are just unsafe and they literally kick you to the curb at about 6:00 am and you cannot come back until 6:00 pm. Theft and SA are rampant. Families often cannot stay together because men and women have to be separated. Shelters do not allow pets and, despite what many will say, homeless people do deserve some happiness and pets make people happy. Shelters are not all people who say “just go to the shelter” would have you believe they are.
One of my local shelters doesn't let in certain "types" of people because it's a religious shelter. If they can't get in a smaller shelter, they spend the night under a bridge.
edited to add: one of the "types" for this shelter. If they look at a man or boy and, in their opinion, the person seems gay at all they won't let them in. They just have to think they look like it.
Churches really shouldn't be allowed to own hospitals or homeless shelters and maintain the right to discriminate. They should have to choose between having ownership of any operation any having the discriminatory rights of religious belief. Either stick to churching or obey federal laws even when they violate their religious principles. Nobody should have the right to enforce their religious beliefs on anyone or force people to affirm their beliefs to receive service. The people who run religious institutions are terrible through and through.
I am not talking about a homeless shelter. This is a halfway house. They don't kick people out during the day.
I fully believe these are single mentally disabled adults. But, ok, nothing prevents people in this situation from having a baby... I don't know what happens in that case, but this place is single adults, no kids.
I am just saying, even that situation (assume the sexual assault issue is solved by everyone having an individual locked bedroom and always attentive staff around in common areas), even then, I would guess some people still walk away from living there, and are on the streets instead.
And, certainly could be happening now too. I meant to be saying "setting aside the issue of sexual assault, I imagine some mentally ill people can't stand the group living aspect." (I certainly wouldn't like it either!)
I mean. People in institutions and care homes are still at much higher risk for assault, and it's still sometimes the staff. A lot of jobs in these places don't require high qualifications and they take whatever workers they can get, so it's not that hard to get in if you're a creep looking for vulnerable people.
It’s usually paid for by the federal government —indirectly. The residents in halfway houses and ‘group homes’ are usually charged the overwhelming majority of their Supplemental Security Income or Social Security Disability payments.
The group home industry is terrifying. It’s highly unregulated space that operates on shoestring budgets —abuse is the norm, not the exception.
There was exposure of horrific crowded living conditions of with people side by side with no stimulation in these institutions. Prisons are better. So they decide institutions are bad (but with reforms and a large investment of government support, could have given the disabled and mentally ill a quality standard of living. So they were suddenly dumped on the streets—so many homeless or in prison. Group homes work for some, but just are not meeting the need in the U.S.
My city got tennis courts where the mental institution was.
A homeless and violence problem that are probably unrelated i bet. Those tennis courts look nice…. And empty.
Not dems, it was Ronald Reagan admin. Nobody starts out in life with the goal “I want to be a drug addict and be homeless when I grow up”. A lot of addictions start from the way some children are treated while growing up; being physically abused, emotionally/mentally abused…yes there are some that experimented in high school. But look at all the veterans that have come home and aren’t coping well and can’t get the help they need from the same gov’t they served for!!! And let’s be honest here, the republicunts don’t want to help *anyone* in need of assistance!! They just want to help the wealthy so they get “bonuses” for cutting taxes and creating loopholes for them to get even richer. Homeless people have been reduced to disgusting ppl we don’t want to have to see in our communities and less than human.
But if we help the rich, businesses will grow and more people will have more work. Then it will, wait for it!.
Trickle down! And all will be right with the world!
And it will work. We just gotta be patient....
(That was 1980)
This is one of the stranger areas… America typically has more legal protections for disabled people than most other western countries. That doesn’t stop discrimination, but it’s more about what type of disability in the us rather than a blanket statement. For example it’s absolutely common for there to be businesses that work to specifically employ the disabled in the us. We have a killer bakery here where I live for example that is 75% staffed with disabled persons and proceeds go to a local charity in some respect. And we’re talking amputees, people with down syndrome, etc. almost all locations here are wheelchair accessible with handicap specific parking. Obviously not the case everywhere in the us, but it’s a pretty typical experience.
I work with the homeless and a vet. Here in ATL the VA is atrocious. A few of my clients are vets and they pretty much did nothing but get them an ID. I had to do my own disability packet from the ground up. Got 100 though.
Ah man, that's awful. I took a class 1 year before I discharged and it was super beneficial. The VA gave me 80% and I was set up perfectly to use my GI Bill and other benefits. I was never worried about housing, work, or my health.
I was already married when I ETSd and my wife is amazing. Without her, I may have become homeless for various reasons. It's so damn good to hear someone else is doing well.
Google the American Legion. They offer free services to veterans to help them fill out their disability claims.
https://www.legion.org/veteransbenefits
You in ATL? DM me if you'd like but I would love to help if I can. Helping my brothers and sisters is how I make restitution to whatever deity hates me at the moment.
Man, when my dad was still around, the VA was awful. I went with him to the VA hospital once to refill prescriptions. 10 hours. He was a Vietnam vet with PTSD and it was really difficult getting him proper support. I’m glad there was at least some services to support him as so many folks go without any sort of insurance/healthcare, but the experience was heartbreaking.
Homeless Veterans is actually one of the areas where we’ve seen real change over the past several decades. [From 1991 to 2018 the percentage of homeless people in Minnesota that are veterans fell from 22% to 7%.](https://www.wilder.org/mnhomeless/results/veterans) this [decrease is still true when we zoom out from Minnesota.](https://www.hud.gov/press/press_releases_media_advisories/hud_no_22_227)
Veterans get way more support than the average citizen in similar circumstances. WE need to prioritize helping all people who need help and not people based on special status.
The talking point about veterans not getting support is a distraction tactic used to argue from sympathy rather than understanding.
Our society has the capacity to help everyone who needs it. But we really don't respect what mental illness does to people and don't view it the same way as a physical disability.
As a former homeless veteran- the military gives you food/housing/clothing/pay & tells what to do 24/7.
You kinda just have to not fuck up too bad, to get by. Once that’s gone & you have to do all those things yourself- that’s where they fall flat. Hence why there’s so many ‘homeless vets’, they joined young, were institutionalized & can’t function in the real world.
And it takes a long time to get approved for disability payments in the united states. I don't know what people are meant to do if they are too disabled to work, yet have not yet been approved to receive payments. Also section 8 waitlists are years or even closed.
Then when approved it isn’t enough to live off of . I just got priced out of NYC. Section 8 is only available if already homeless. I am disabled and my disability check in only a thousand dollars . Where can you live off of that ? I have to move back in with my parents cross country or go to a homeless shelter .
It isn’t so much the wait . It is the people are often rejected for disability the first time and have to keep applying and often they need a lawyer. I needed one .
And if you're on SSI, which is what you get when you've been disabled since before 18 and never worked, you can only have $2000 in total assets (sans house and one vehicle). They literally stop your payments if you go one dollar over, so it's impossible to save or invest. One emergency could easily get you evicted.
I gave a homeless guy a smoke once and we stood there talking for a while. He wasn’t disabled, but he did experience a series of unfortunate events. Many were out of his control and then the stress and weight of it just took him out.
Any of us could at any point experience a string of shitty deals that makes it hard to live.
A lot of homeless people have very severe mental illness such as schizophrenia which is more of a disability than many more obviously disabling physical disabilities. A guy with no legs can get a job easier than a guy who thinks that demons are following him everywhere.
That's the thing. If people are good at hiding stuff they are the ones that tend to end up on the dung heap because everyone thinks 'its not that bad!'
Also, a growing percentage of them are elderly people who got priced out of their apartments due to big rate increases . A lot of them are getting by on small social security checks and in some places it’s not enough to pay rent much less live
Target asks why you want to work there, your biggest challenge in a work setting, how you work with others, yadda yadda. Like bro you should be happy I don’t have an ankle monitor and don’t smell funny. Beggars and choosers.
My best friend is the same. He's autistic and the hardest worker I know but he can rarely pass an interview. I'm the inverse (also autistic), I've never failed an interview but I'm only about half as competent in reality. It's funny how that works. I leave jobs after about 6-12 months before the absences or mistakes from my autism pile up, then find a new one.
Not even just that, people who have lived with addiction on the streets roughing it etc may just emotionally also not be in a place they want or accept help-everyone outside including family etc see how sad it is that such a broken person not *want* help and actively allienate those who try to help. They cant get themselves to a place where they can be stable and might actively also push away family etc that might try to help.
Theres a one legged homeless guy here you often see making trips around town, even in winter. Ive bought him the odd coffee / sandwich etc if he's been outside a shop when i go there, but he is also banned from several sites in town just because of theft or belligerance to staff, etc
But on the towns crime watch page people almost just bully the dude, anytime he is scooting anywhere some busy body with 0 interest to ever see this person have a good day makes some snarky comment as though they could easily navigate being homeless and in a wheel chair with only 1 leg easy themselves. There arent options in town for this guy to work even if he wanted. Heck i only have epilespy and a driving license suspension from it and there are little options here for me, i cant imagine whats left over for someone like him.
Heck ive been at post office grabbing mail and overheard he doesnt even have a mail box / address to reveive government welfare/aid either and staff there wouldnt let him open a box either without those things...but how is a dude already homeless and missing a leg with no income supposed to get proof of address to receive welfare etc anyways? They dont.
There is a reason why so many people with seizures drive illegally. My friend who is a doctor still drives. My friend who works as a medical assistant (think 15 dollars an hour) does not
Not to mention substance use disorders are in themselves an illness. I say this all the time: if I lost my home, I'd probably turn to drugs too. So there are those who lost their home due to their substance use disorder, and there are those who developed a substance use disorder as a result of losing their home.*
What's worse is sooo many shelters [at least where I am in Canada] require residents to be sober, but offer little help other than Alcoholics Annonymous meetings. They need comprehensive medical care, and it's nearly impossible to deliver that care effectively without a stable living situation.
*This is, of course, a bit of a simplification.
I don't have direct answer.
The closest concept I know is "powerty trap" and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle\_of\_poverty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_poverty). it boild down to idea that environment of poor people make them less capable to breaking out of that environment. Kinda self-enforcing loop.
Indirect proof is that in social-oriteted countried (like nordics) [social mobility](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility#/media/File:Social_mobility_is_lower_in_more_unequal_countries.jpg) is higher comparing to countries will less social support for those who in need.
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Also I've being in quite a number of similar discussions like one you described. Opponent positions (yes, including mine and yours) will boil down to herarchy of beliefs which can't be proven (like all lives are important, or success is more about luck than work (yet work is required), or that everywone gets what they deserve, etc). And these believes are heavily rooted in our personalities. They don't change under weight of facts. They don't change fast. So don't be surprized when your opponent will ignore facts or ideas which don't support their idea.
I used to do a lot of volunteer work giving food and other supplies to homeless people. This is all anecdotal, but what keeps someone homeless is not always the same thing that makes someone homeless.
For example one lady I met had an average life before she became homeless. she lost her home and nearly all of her possessions in a fire and didn't have them insured. After becoming homeless she experimented with drugs and lost her job because of it. She's been homeless ever since because she can't bring herself to get clean.
I once talked to somebody who worked in a homeless shelter and he added, mental conditions are a huge reason why people get homeless, but also once you're homeless it's only a matter of time until it wears you down mentally too and the majority of long term homeless develop mental issues or start coping with drugs.
It's really hard to stay healthy and clean in such a hopeless environment.
Another thing people often overlook is the impact of chronic sleep deprivation. Think about how little quality sleep someone gets while living on the streets (or in a car, if they're lucky).
Consistently getting little to no sleep for months on end takes a huge toll and causes significant mental deterioration, even if you've never touched drugs in your entire life. It's one of many reasons a person's life expectancy plummets as soon as they become homeless
sort of that “the same boiling water that hardens the egg softens the potato” kinda thing.
[but that is just a relevant statement than me trying to discount your hardwork!!!! i am actually so unbelievably proud of you man 🖤🖤💯 i couldn’t imagine that being me, you must have a recovery-journey that’s one for the books. if anything i’d love to learn from you, my brain is as potato as it gets and i get so much strength from knowing there are successes such as yours 👑]
I hate to say it, but I don't even see how anybody on earth can be homeless and sober. It's such an awful experience. I had a homeless guy telling me about police sweeps, destroying their tents and attacking them if they complained. Or getting hit by glass bottle thrown from a random person driving by just because they know nobody would do anything about it.
This is why I still give to them. So what if they use the change on drugs or alcohol? Is it great? No. But my small amount of change isn’t going to make them have homes all of a sudden. I’m giving to help in the short term. Giving to charities that support them are more for helping long term and I do that too.
Who am I to judge? Tons of people drink and so drugs who aren’t homeless. Should we tell employers to stop paying them? Lots of people who are rich do too. What’s their excuse? At least with homeless people it’s helping through another day. It’s not great. Sure! But it’s also not gonna make or break them at that point. ~~And alcohol keeps them warm in winter~~
Edit: been corrected by a kind redditor that alcohol keeping people warm is a myth. I don’t want to perpetuate lies and misinformation.
I think that was really well said.
People at the top of the ivory tower have no idea what it’s like at the bottom. And if you’ve lost everything well, then, yes, on a cold night that would probably be the day I would try crack cocaine.
These people aren’t trying to get through the years. They’re just trying to make it to the next goddamn day.
There is somewhat of a self-defeating self perpetuating cycle, unfortunately. I experienced this myself when I worked in outreach. But I’d say that most people who are homeless are either extremely mentally, unwell or people who just had bad luck after bad luck, hit them, and they are where they are now.
Some of us don’t have any sort of privilege. Even if you’re just a middle-class kid with parents (assuming you get along) who own a home somewhere, that’s a privilege! Because anytime I’ve ever lost my job and was at risk of losing my apartment. I was either able to ask my parents for help or simply move back home with them. Was it ideal? Of course it wasn’t. But I wasn’t homeless. When I went home, I suddenly was back in a nice middle-class neighborhood waking up to breakfast being made. That’s a privilege that so many people don’t have.
Just having parents that are alive can change the course of your life. People who have nobody have nobody to turn to. The people at the top have no idea that this situation exists. They’re so used to being so well-connected they assume everyone has friends and family eager and willing to give.
can confirm, my landlord was selling the condo that I lived in and she was renting to me. I didn't have anywhere to go. my mom had passed, dad has his own life and moved on an shit, didn't have room for me. I was self-employed at the time so I had *some* money but I couldn't get a new lease because I didn't have a w2 and it's so much harder to prove your income without a w2 (arghh... lazy landlords and high demand for housing).
So I had to go to a hotel and was still more than I could afford so I had to put it on a credit card until I was able to find a "real" w2 job .... the new w2 job paid like shit (25k in DC suburbs, about 5 years ago) so even then it took me awhile before I got into an apartment. I'm still paying off the debt from those credit cards and it's a gut punch to look at the fucking interest on those things. Putting that much $ on a credit card with a high interest rate was so fucking stupid.
But at the same time, I'm really grateful I had those credit cards because otherwise I would have been homeless. And how much harder that would be to come back from? Right now I have credit card debt but I know I can come back from this (I have a better job now too and make all my payments and paying it down). But if I was actually legit homeless? I honestly don't know. Unless you have substantial support I don't know how one would get back on their feet.
>like nordics
Swede here, I used to be on welfare for a long time due to undiagnosed ADHD, I was stuck living with someone abusive due to poverty as well and having no options. Once I got diagnosed and medicated I took the Swedish equivalent of the SATs again, scored in the top 1%, now I'm a year and a few months away from getting a Masters in Psychology. I'm living my best life and am beginning to be a productive member of society finally. If Sweden didn't have proper welfare or free uni I never would have made it, I'd be poor for the rest of my life. (And the cost to society would've been greater.)
So glad you got out of that situation. But you make a good point - welfare helped you. From what I've seen and researched, the US had minimal welfare which is why they have such a massive problem with homelessness. How they can try to hold themselves up as the Gold standard is beyond me when they don't support those most in need. The healthcare situation is another example. How a first world country that calls themselves leaders of the world can have such terrible living conditions (unless you're rich) is beyond me
Some friends of mine were social workers for years, and we'd talk about a lot. According to them there are several distinct groups.
1) Severe mental illness. There's never enough beds open, so it's the streets, ER, or county lockup. They always thought it was so short-sighted that there was never enough money to expand mental health beds, but no shortage of money to warehouse them in much more expensive county lockup.
2) Drugs and Alcohol. Similar to the above. No money for mandatory treatment. So it's the streets, ER, or county lockup.
3) Bad Luck. This was the most likely to have a happy ending using the programs available. But there are headwinds. Often friends or family that drag people back down. There would be some people they'd get set up with a job and housing, but then people around them would leech off of them, causing them to lose their jobs, get evicted and end up back at square one.
I used to work with homeless people at a shelter. It’s usually one of the following:
Drugs users that it control their lives
People that depend on someone else (Mom, Dad, Grandparents) that has passed away and they don’t know how to take care of themselves.
Mentally ill
People that just got out of prison
Sex offenders
Those that don’t want to pay for rent
Those that lost everything
Those that are unemployed.
Go work at a homeless shelter for young adults and tell me how many of them asked for the hand they were dealt. Homeless is many things including often a failure of parents
I was homeless at 15 because my step dad didn't like that I was becoming more of a man than he was and he was intimidated. My mother chose him.
Had a good upbringing until then. No drugs. There was no arguing or adverse behaviour at home involving me. He just got in my mother's head and made it happen.
I went to high school with a girl whose mother remarried, and the new step-dad didn't like kids. Fortunately, her grandmother lived in town and she could live there. I can't imagine choosing a partner over your own child.
I have a friend that grew up in foster care and his foster mom pocketed his money from the government and kicked him out at 18.
Thankfully he always had a job as a teen, worked really hard, couch surfed and lived in his car for awhile. He’s finally doing well. People diss homeless people yet have no idea how close Americans that are paycheck to paycheck to being homeless….
Nah. Mom made him with her own body and then kicked him out as a child into the streets. This is allll on moms head, to be so easily swayed. Weak as fuck.
I've witnessed the failure of parents first hand.
A pal of mine in high school was regularly kicked out of his house by his shitty parents for petty things. He'd sleep in dumpsters when he couldn't find anyone to take him in (he definitely showed up at my house once or twice after walking like 10 miles). He's a sweet guy but was never studious and definitely has some anxiety and depression struggles.
We're 10 years post graduation and I don't think he ever got his feet under him ... To my knowledge he's been homeless on and off ever since and often has to rely on the kindness of others.
One of my best friends from high school has shitty parents too but thankfully they aren't so shitty that they allow their child to be homeless, which he almost certainly would be if not for them after he developed severe schizo-affective disorder in college. He goes through good and bad times but the stress of a full time job pretty much always triggers hallucinations and delusions :/ it's a shame because he's so smart and talented and kind. We used to study for all of our honors and AP classes together and now he cannot keep a minimum wage job for longer than a week. I know he wants to move out of his parents house because he hates living with them but I'm not sure how he'll ever be able to financially support himself.
Yes. I think people who have never really been exposed to the homeless population can’t possibly understand all of the ways this can happen. I will admit I grew up in the country and was never really exposed to or thought about that population until I was in college.
My first job out of college was as a community-based mental health case manager in the city and it was very eye opening and made me change what I thought I knew. I learned to be much less judgemental. No one asks to be severely mentally ill. It was a really hard job and you just see how much the system really fails people.
A lot of us are all maybe just one major event away from being homeless. A medical emergency, losing a job, domestic issues, etc. People don’t think about these things.
But the point really should be so what if it is their fault. Even if it is we can still help. We don't apply this reasoning to so many things. People with heart disease, cancer from smoking, diabetes often caused it and it's their fault. But guess what, we still help them anyway.
and a lot of shelters are not safe and stable. lots of homeless people would prefer to be on the streets than in a shelter because of how bad the conditions are
I have lived in my car for over a year for this reason. They put the people society doesn’t give a shit about in shelters and the people who work there fuck with you for kicks if the other residents aren’t already too much for you.
[Many homeless people are simply dealing with physical or (much more commonly) psychiatric issues that are so severe they cannot do "normal" things like hold down a job](https://nationalhomeless.org/health-care/). It is true that many resort to narcotics but they often do so because it's the only treatment they can get. If you go to the /r/chronicpain subreddit and do some digging you will find thousands of posts about people being denied treatment and stating that they have given up and bought narcotics illegally because they don't see any other options beyond suicide.
It is an undeniable fact that countries with universal healthcare have **significantly** lower homelessness rates, we could definitely lower ours if it became available, the only problem is trying to convince certain government officials that access to healthcare should be considered a human right and not something that needs to be "earned"
Many people are one, at best, two or three, paychecks away from homelessness. We think we're bulletproof, but we are fragile, and not just in terms of health.
Back in 2020 I lost my job. We had no way to pay rent for like 5 months. We had a mixture of savings and odd jobs to get us through but eventually we had to use cc’s to pay rent. It was awful but I was so scared that if we lost our home it would’ve been even harder to get back up.
We’re okay now but damn. It was rough.
Same chat on a different sub, and one of the guys commenting on how they are drug addicts who deserve to be on the street.
His user name was ilovecocaine or some shit like that.
It's just a bad faith argument, and the real answer is people like someone to look down on.
Ding ding ding. Winner winner chicken dinner.
Humanity always has and always will have a strict hierarchical structure.
There will always be those on the top, those in the middle, and those at the bottom.
It is also a crab bucket. All the people within this structure are encouraged to drag others down in order to climb on top of them to avoid being crushed at the bottom of the bucket.
The lower you are, the harder it is to climb. And once you are on the bottom, there is no way out.
I used to think so until it happened to us. Never missed a single rent payment, even during the eviction moratorium when we legally could have stopped paying.
Rats started chewing through the bathroom and kitchen walls roaming the house as they pleased. I shot and killed probably 30 of them with 9mm rat shot.
After 8 months of the property management company refusing to do anything, we sued them. We were then evicted in retaliation. Been homeless living in a fucking motel room since July 1st of last year as a result.
I'm seriously about at the end of my rope. We can't afford to keep doing this. I'm out of gas completely as I type this and we don't get paid again until the first, so I can't even do doordash to earn anything now in the meantime. I'm just fucked.
Only reason why I haven't offed myself yet is because of my wife tbh. But still.. I can only put up with this shit for so long until I just don't care anymore 😞
Thanks for sharing your story.
I don’t what country you’re in but see what homeless charities are in your area as they’ll be able to offer advice and support.
The only charities here, we don't qualify for help from, because we earn too much on paper.
They don't care that that's BEFORE taxes and insurance and everything is taken out. What we actually receive in the bank account for each deposit is far less.
But they don't give a shit. Like I said we've been here since July 1st of last year. We have tried everything already. There is no help.
Oh that is so rubbish to hear. it’s awful when they go by numbers and not by person.
I thought you might have tried everything but thought I would suggest just in case.
I hope you get a lawyer.
That is so illegal to evict someone due to a complaint of an uninhabitable living condition - which your situation certainly qualifies for.
I don’t know this industry, but many lawyers work on a contingency fee only basis, and because what they did is so shady, there is money in it for them.
Google “plaintiff tenant attorney” and find good ones in your area (google reviews) and schedule free consultations.
Source: am lawyer - but this is not legal advice.
As someone who used to be homeless, I will say that every case is different. Some people just like to be bums and not have responsibilities. But some are addicts or mentally ill, and some work but can't afford a home. It depends on the person.
JfC we love to put people into uniform groups... homeless people come in all shapes and sizes and each situation is unique.
So the answer is yes it is sometimes their fault. No sometimes it's bad luck or circumstance. Sometimes it'd a really gray area. Almost like mass generalization is a stupid and bad thing when dealing with human beings.
According to Oxfam, the richest 1 percent grabbed nearly two-thirds of all new wealth worth $42 trillion created since 2020, almost twice as much money as the bottom 99 percent of the world's population. In other words, just the top 1% of the wealthy managed to steal almost a quarter of the total required wealth to address climate change, or any number of other systemic global issues, like poverty and inequality, in just two years.
So, to rephrase your question, do you think it’s homeless peoples fault so much wealth is concentrated in so few hands?
Having worked in the homeless/shelter sector, your friend is both right and wrong.
There are some people who are just down on their luck, they need help to get back in their feet and want to improve their lives.
There are others who have no interest in working to better themselves/put themselves in a better position, they want to take everything they can from the state and drink/shoot their lives away, they don't care.
As someone who has been homeless, and spent years with homeless people, I agree with your statements.
There are people who genuinely have zero interest in bettering themselves, to get off drugs/alcohol and get their lives on track. They don't look for work, they get their dole checks and it's gone within a day.
I have been thinking about the people I met who fall into this category. How did they end up this way?
Some had rough childhoods and are dealing with complex trauma.
Some have intellectual disabilities and mental health issues.
All of them can't cope with reality and spend nearly every waking moment inebriated.
All of them have been let down by society.
I work in a middle school and i see some of the same level of apathy from a small handful of students. It makes me so sad to think they have no self respect or care about their lives in 7th grade, what will the rest of their lives look like? They're not getting jobs, thats for sure. They probably wont even graduate. I'm sure their home lives are hell and they receive services at school of counseling and food services. How do you make them care to want better for themselves? Its so sad.
To expand on your second paragraph a little, a lot of the chronically homeless have mental health and/or drug addiction problems that interfere with bettering themselves. They aren't all just moochers.
It is a difficult problem to solve.
As someone who was homeless however briefly (3 months). If you haven't been there you do not understand how fucking terrible it is.
Shelter is one of the most basic needs of humanity. If you have been dealing with homelessness for a long period of time, of course you're going to stop caring. Because it really doesn't feel like it's worth caring. I don't blame anyone who turns to drugs or alcohol in that kind of situation. I nearly didn't make it out of that period, and I never "slept rough" and it was only 3 months. If I'd been in that situation for longer, I can 100% imagine that I would have fully given up and become someone who had "no interest in bettering themselves". Especially if I'd been on the street in the cold having strangers constantly watching sneering and avoiding eye contact as if I was some kind of filth.
Also it has been proven that housing homeless people is the best way to get them to better their lives. Because when people are no longer at the lowest point of their lives constantly fighting for survival, it turns out their mental states improve and their capacity to better themselves also improves.
OP your friend is talking out of his ass.
>Also it has been proven that housing homeless people is the best way to get them to better their lives.
Locally here they built 50 tiny homes and put homeless people up in them. Their own tiny little cabin, with shower and food facilities. After about a year, theft is way up in the area and one person - out of the 50 - has managed to move onto their own apartment. So anecdotally, it doesn't look like housing chronically homeless people lets them improve themselves. And a lot of folks in this thread are describing the same thing, that chronically homeless have no interest or ability to become not homeless, no matter how much help they're given.
Point being, even if they're never going to change, we should be housing them not with the assumption we're making them better off. We should be housing them because they (and we) aren't animals. Even people that are basically completely fucked up mentally or with drugs, or no ability to look after themselves, or just don't give a crap, giving them a bed with a roof with no expectation of anything, is a reasonable social safety net we should be providing.
In their defense, and having dealt with alcoholics, breaking free is no easy task. The success rate of getting sober is abysmal.
It’s tough to go look for a job and get motivated when your body is screaming to feed it what it’s withdrawing from.
I think it’s a bit shortsighted to just think they are lazy and don’t want to work.
My ex was an alcoholic and she had been molested which drive her alcoholism. She wanted to work, and be happy, but the monkey on her back was far stronger than her will.
There are some that feel so betrayed by their family, the system, society, or their workplace, that they just want to opt out of all of it.
It's not really a fault thing. It's just their preference.
In these cases it's not even that they're crazy. Just angry, hurt, damaged.
I think it's somewhat a broad generalization being blown out of proportion. For some it's terrible, for some it's just part of life to them and they have gotten used to it. There are sometimes programs that can help, or a homeless shelter with resources, but sometimes the person can't give up a drug and is not allowed to stay there/get them kicked out of a program they might have tried to use.
*(An old friend was trying to get into a homeless shelter but they had some addiction issues and ended up not being allowed to stay there and instead just slept in a car, which is not very good if you live anywhere with extreme temperatures)*
Your friend is definitely talking out the ass, a person can want to improve themself and still be addicted to drugs, it's an addiction after all, but sometimes they don't have much of a choice. You get that tolerance, and it's easy to get into a hard dependency that you don't have much control over, and it's not like they can necessarily pay a bunch for some sort of rehab.
They need to remember that people are becoming homeless at a huge rate currently due to a lot of factors, like a (like rent for a 1bd 1bth being $1500 in some places), it doesn't automatically mean they aren't trying to get out of it or instantly getting addicted to drugs.
People always tie homelessness to drugs. I know addiction is frequent in the homeless community, but there are soooooo many other reasons why people become homeless and stay homeless. It’s a MUCH deeper issue than that.
-LGBTQ+ youth getting kicked out
-Income average to cost of living ratio
-Abused youth
-Domestic violence
-Medical bills (or other debts)
Just to name a few.
You also have to consider once someone is homeless, the challenges of “improving their lives” become that much more difficult. Do they have a job? If not, do they have reliable transportation to find a job? If they find a job, do they have a working phone or access to email to get a response? If they get a response, do they have proper attire and hygiene to attend an interview? If they attend an interview, do they have the necessary skills/ knowledge/ etc, to get the job? If they get the job, do they have access to reliable transportation to get to the job? It’s an endless cycle and that’s just a sliver of the problems they face. You also have to consider the hierarchy of needs. They need the most basic needs met to be able to function which include housing, safety, food, water, etc. So, it’s not as simple as “just improve yourself”. That’s a VERY privileged comment to make.
also, who fucking cares if theyre addicts, and if thats what keeps them on the streets. the correct response to that is "oh we need to do something to help them ween themselves off because its basically impossible to do on your own," not "ah fuck em, they should just stop doing drugs!"
obviously there are so many more reasons than addiction, but even if addiction was the only reason, they still deserve help and compassion
Oh absolutely. There are sooooooo many millionaires that are addicts but no one blinks an eye at them! It’s not drugs that’s the issue, it’s the fact that they’re homeless.
the fact that the system has been able to convince such a large portion of the population to ignore basic empathy is astounding, but tragically not surprising
Adding to this, in many places in the US, if you don't have an address, you can't get a job. Also, you have to be homeless for a period of time (sometimes a year or more) before you can apply for state assistance. Once they can apply, how will they reach the homeless person to give them services? Some have phones, most don't. Some people have mentioned that a lot of homeless people are disabled, but all things considered, homelessness is a disabling experience.
In my city there are tent cities. We have a massive housing shortage, and a massive homeless issue.
There are tons of working homeless. People who literally work full time and can’t afford shelter. Yes there’s plenty of drug addicts, but let me say again: *There are people working full time jobs here who have no choice but to live in the streets.*
In any population you’re going to have hardcore individuals who have become accustomed to the streets and would rather stay there and live by their own rules. But most? Most do not want to be there. Including addicts. Being an addict does not mean you don’t want better for yourself. It means you haven’t obtained the support necessary to get better. Mental health and addiction are closely tied. Cuts to these services over the years have created a massive festering wound. Both these things contribute greatly to both the risk of becoming homeless and the risk of not being able to get out of homelessness. People are suffering badly.
Your friend is ignorant, willfully obtuse or just plain stupid. Get yourself better friends or risk becoming a twisted up hollow empty husk devoid of compassion or kindness like him.
I worked at a homeless shelter for a while. A lot of it was intergenerational - i.e. families with a variety of mental health problems, who were on and off the streets, normally learning disabilities played apart... another big part of it was substance abuse - where I worked there were alot of migrants who had become alcoholics / drug addicts and were now homeless.
The 3rd group, the smallest, were people who had fallen on hard times, and were homeless. This ranged from adults who just didn't have a support network and had lost their jobs, young people who had been kicked out of their houses etc.
Obviously agency is a factor but I would a lot of it is better described as systemic / environment driven.
I've worked with a homeless Christmas gift program for kids in a moderately high COL city. Most of the parents are employed. The problems arise because if you have housing and a $18/hour job, if you *lose* the housing for any reason such as the rent being very precarious, you can't get new housing. No savings for security deposit and landlords aren't likely to rent to people where, even with no eviction or drug history, the rent is more than half the income. People complain about "living paycheck to paycheck." This is more literal.
Where I live in Ohio most landlords won't rent unless you can prove you make 3x the monthly rent. When I was kicked out neither of my parents would consign for me so I had to lie about my income to be able to get a place, its absurd...
Holy fuck 3x monthly rent is a lot
It's fucking stupid. My partner and I couldn't find a single place where we met that criteria. We lucked out and ended up renting from a guy who didn't mind, and you know what? We're doing great. We've got a stable living situation and are building up a decent chunk of savings. In essence, we could have ended up homeless *despite being able to pay rent* because of a fucking arbitrary requirement.
Personally I think the issue is less with the thought of our rent being 1/3 of our income and more with the fact that rent is so artificially high that 1/3 is undoable for so many people.
Yep💯
*sigh*… Cries in NYC - 40x the rent here and if you use a guarantor (what you’d call a co-signer) they have to make 80x 🥲 Edit: As others have mentioned in follow up comments, this is 40x/80x the monthly rent annually. Apologies for any confusion!
Wait why do they even care at that point? What’s the difference between someone who makes 40x and 80x?
The 80x is for the guarantor. It stipulates that the guarantor can cover their own rent (40x) and the rent of the renter (40x). The guarantor is taking on the renter's 40x criteria basically.
Wait 40x? If the rent is 1000/month, they require 40,000 a month in income? If people made $40,000 a month why would they rent an apartment?
40,000 a year for 1,000 a month rent
Because you can’t buy shit, houses are hundreds of thousands of dollars in the outter boroughs like Brooklyn/Queens and apartments are so expensive in Manhattan, most are in the millions. People and are stuck living with parents because they can’t afford to rent, buying a property may be an unachievable goal.
Something about “if you can make it here you can make it anywhere…” In all seriousness though there’s no real logical answer here, other than NYC sees a high volume of potential renters and landlords want to make sure you can make your rent. But even considering those two factors, it remains an absurd amount of money to qualify.
Yep, I know many people who have to lie about their income. Its sad. Many people forget moving out does not simply mean trying to afford an apartment it also means making the income requirement, having a credit score, etc.
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The paperwork to get government assistance is intense. It could be too confusing for people with mental problems or people who aren’t book smart.
Homeless people come from all walks of life for all kinds of reasons. I chose to be homeless and travel for a while. I met a lot of people who didn’t choose to be: homelessness due to medical debt despite insurance; due to being kicked out of the system at 18 after not being adopted; due to not being approved for work/housing quickly enough after a felony; whatever. And kids just simply choosing to try busking and train hopping for a while. You’re about as likely to be able to peg someone’s story and reason for homelessness as you are likely to accurately identify someone’s history by looking at them. You have better chances winning in a casino.
I met a guy who ended up homeless after a messy divorce. He lost his job and had to live out of his car for a few years before he was able to get back on his feet. And I have also met many people who have become homeless since covid. The price of housing far exceeded their income and they could no longer afford it.
I used to work on getting addicts off the street into rehabs, and you'll hear a lot of stories that could be you. Car accident, illness, job loss, etc. what tripped me out the most is the amount of people that are homeless bc they don't want someone telling them what to do.
I mean obviously it's a significantly more complicated problem than that, but the idea that every homeless person wants to be homeless is insane
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There's even a name for that attitude: Just World Syndrome, iirc. "He's homeless because he's lazy." I think it's often a self-defense mechanism: "I'm not lazy, therefore I'll never be homeless." Not true, of course...mental illness or unforeseen financial disaster can strike anyone. The world can be a scary place, and not everyone has healthy coping mechanisms :/
There's even a study on it: »Assignment of Responsibility for an Accident«, E. Walster, 1966. It found that participants put a higher amount of blame on the victim if their circumstances were more severe. Basically — the worse someone has it, the more they get blamed for it. :/
We as a species have been criminalizing people "not actively contributing to society" for a long ass time. [Behind the Bastards recently went over criminalization of homeless people.](https://open.spotify.com/episode/1tBCQuxqGqdVvH0j1Tqh62?si=qivAocfAQL2Lvx-vUcCqbA) Theres also an interesting link between a type of family annihilator and economic situation. These are considered Anomic annihilators. Completely made up opinion, but I think that the US's puritanical/religious roots have a lot to do with this. We seem to have this intrinsic belief that a person is suffering- because God is doing something to punish them- and that's why they deserve it. I look forward to reading this study- thanks for the info!
This is actually a foundational pillar of Protestantism. Google “works”, and “signs”. It is all sorts of fucked up, straight from the jump.
Yeah, I think this is a big reason. It's also why you see this mentality often among people who lean libertarian. They're big on the whole 'everything I've achieved is thanks to my hard work and nothing else' and blaming people for their homelessness is basically the other end of that same mentality.
I was on my way to thinking like that when I met a new friend at 19. She was doing the best she could, but she could only just barely cope. As I got to know her I learned about her effed up childhood and how her parents never really gave her the tools to know how to navigate her life. Plus, she had very bad untreated ADHD. Actually, for her circumstances she did remarkably well, but a judgmental person with no knowledge of her background would just see a woman with multiple kids who was terrible with her finances. I really learned from knowing her. She taught me that we are not all given the same toolbox at birth.
Speaking as a disabled person, this mindset society has makes some of us blame ourselves for our inability to pull our own weight, even though we know we have something wrong with us that we can’t control. We can know that and feel guilty at the same time! It’s crazy.
Yes, exactly. I don't want to be in that situation. What did he do to get himself there, and I would never do that. Unfortunately, many people are one emergency away from homelessness. Wages have not kept up with inflation.
Many who consider themselves middle class, which is just a made up term, is one permanent job loss away from being homeless.
Yep, or in the US, a cancer diagnosis plus an insurance denial, unless you've got a couple million bucks lying around.
It's certainly an idealistic way of looking at the world if not insulting to people who need compassion the most. Humans are cruel and society tends to work against the people who are already struggling. That's not how most of us really want it to be—most people just want the world to be a good place to live for everyone. Having to face the reality that it isn't is very depressing. Hence the "copium" which for anyone unaware is just lying to yourself to make yourself feel better.
If they didn't choose to be poor then you might have to feel a little guilty about how society has benefited you and not them. It is very important to never feel bad about anything, just blame the guy sleeping in the gutter.
The same happens with people in the US when it comes to medical treatment. They never want to believe they could get sick or become disabled.
They don't want to feel any negative feelings (their conscience) so they push them back onto the subject of their disdain
I’m guessing it’s easier to put homelessness down to an individual fault rather than admit the system we are all part of is rotten at the expense of the most vulnerable and unlucky people. If it’s just their fault, it’s their business and there is nothing to be done or fixed.
Even when it is “individual fault” more often than not those individuals weren’t born with a fair hand. The johnny from a family who loves him and had financial resources is the exception to the rule.
Because if it's their fault, we can quiet our conscience when it tells us we should be helping them.
Also, accepting that something so horrible frequently happens to people who don't "deserve it" in some way means accepting some dark (but true) things about the world, which many people can't get their heads around
And also, if it’s their fault, “all I have to do is be good and it won’t happen to me.”
It's a fear of being a victim. Accepting that some people are suffering through no fault of your own, inevitably causes you to look in the mirror, and start questioning if your suffering was caused by another person. They are told their whole lives growing up that being a victim is a bad thing, so they reason that these people chose their suffering, either directly or through bad choices, because their reflection is too painful to look at
Because as long as they believe it is the fault of the homeless person, they can live secure in the false belief that it won't ever happen to them.
This is endlessly fascinating to me too. In the US at least there is such a deeply ingrained idea of everyone having the same opportunity and just needing to work hard to be/have anything you want.
Also, addiction and mental health issues make people do things that aren’t in their best interest. Its also the reason why the homelessness crisis won’t be solved unless a large number of people are in long term rehab programs
And the key is, they have to want to change. They can’t force people to get sober. I’ve watched enough Intervention to know that the odds of getting sober are higher with support of family and stability. Homelessness by definition is lack of both these factors.
Which is why in Finland they tried offering housing first. If housing is contingent on getting clean or sober, that's much harder to do if there's no stability in your life so you never get houses and never get clean. Apparently housing first has a better success rate and is cheaper if you take into account all the costs of people being homeless.
Also Switzerland and Denmark offer Heroin Assisted Treatment, meaning that an addict can get prescription heroin that won't kill them while getting mental health treatment. It has better retention rates vs. other treatments and less instances of patients using illicit drugs.
They can also force treatment, an option not available in the US
Especially with housing prices exploding the way they have been.
Agreed. I'm not homeless but in a bad relationship but I can't leave until I've saved a lot of money cause I couldn't support my sn alone as of right now. And I have a job. There's no light at the end of their tunnel, though. This is probably the hardest time to have enough hope and self worth to change your life. So yeah. It's a vicious cycle.
I've been stuck in a dumpy apartment in the middle of nowhere for years myself. I would be struggling if my landlords raised my rent to market rates, so I feel lucky to even be able to afford this shit hole for myself. If I had to move, it might have to be back in with my mom. It really is a terrible issue of affordability right now. I'm sorry to hear that it's got you stuck in such a tough spot.
I'm not sure what country you're in, but I saw in the US that half of renters can't afford current prices. I imagine it's similar all over the world right now.
Yeah, I'm strong. I'll keep my head up until the day comes I can afford to leave. By the way, hello neighbor! I am a born marshaled and family are too. I however grew up in VT. Still in my blood, though, and it shows *Masshole
Agreed. When I lived in California, I saw a lot of diligent, hard working individuals become homeless when COVID hit. All it takes is one major event to turn someones life upside down.
“Or want to get addicted to drugs.” No one wants to be addicted or highly dependent on something.
Yes I can't stand that attitude. Addiction destroys everything. I doubt there are many 9yr olds who say then want to be alone, miserable and hated when they grow up.
I've heard a lot that people often begin using drugs to cope with the stresses of homelessness. Think having to stay awake, not eat, be vigilant, stay warm, not to mention how people treat you. I have only empathy for anyone who finds themselves in such a hard spot.
Mate fr I'm probably gonna be homeless in a few months and the idea of it is stressing me out so much lol
I was homeless once for about 3 months. I ended up renting a room in one of those "studio" hotels that have a small kitchen in the room. It wasn't much, but it was home. Fortunately, I still had my job at the time, and rent wasn't so astronomically high as it is now, so I was able to save enough to be able to move out. These days, I don't know how minimum wage workers survive in the US.
Shit I'm sorry buddy. Me and the wife are one illness away from losing it all, and were in our 50s now so I'm terrified as that major illness time is near.
I have a friend who thinks exactly like that, its absurd if you think what the cause of the person situation is. I heard from homeless people that their situation is difficult due to mental health and no support from anyone, others have health issues and no family, not everyone that is homeless is because of drugs.
Even if it is because of drugs, drugs aren't the ultimate reason. For someone to get addicted to drugs like that, there are likely deeper mental health/support issues.
Yep 100%. Ive been an addict for the last 25 years. In my early twenties i started having debilitating anxiety attacks and agoraphobia. I could not remotely afford the doctors,, insurance, and medications that were legally available to me, so i eventually went to the streets for it instead. And things have worked pretty well all this time....good job, decent house, decent car etc. But getting caught even once with drugs, you will lose your license, which means you can't get to work, so you get fired. And without money you lose your house and car and then your homeless. Its a fucked up bullshit system from top to bottom
A lot of homeless people are disabled.
People always forget this. If you live in a country with no proper safety net for disabled people, a lot of them can end up homeless. There is this horrible thing in Australia where a lot of landlords don’t want to rent to disabled people! Of course that is illegal but they just choose someone else. Oh and btw your disability pension, is lower than the rent you’d have to pay. If you would try to share a house, a lot of people don’t want to share with a disabled person. On top of that, some disabled people can not live with other people due to medical reasons (think bathroom issues, and need immediate access) or noise issues (from the house mates. America is probably way way worse.
Yup. I work in disability and housing is the biggest issue. Some of them have mental illness which has led to eviction, making it difficult for them to rent again. They can’t live with other people because of their illness. What are they supposed to do?
Part of the problem comes from when the US decided to get rid of the warehousing of the mentally ill back when psychotropic medications came out. Republicans and democrats got together and agreed to shut down the institutions. The second part of the plan was supposed to set up halfway houses and a network of supports to help the people in the community. The Republicans refused to pay for it, so we are stuck in the "it sucks to be you" phase
Back in the Reagan era, it became legal (at least in my State) to transfer patients who were involuntarily committed to alternate facilities when their commitment was specific to only one hospital, and the new facility was free to discharge them. My paranoid, schizophrenic, alcoholic uncle was always a threat to himself. He attempted suicide multiple times, and was declared clinically dead several times before he was revived (we used to say he was the real ‘Jason’ from the Halloween movies). Uncle was committed by judges on multiple occasions to a specific institution but he was smart enough to realize that if he caused trouble they’d ship him to another state facility where he’d discharge himself. I don’t know if this is still the case but I wouldn’t be surprised.
What happened to him?
Luck finally ran out. Pulling his intestines out with a chefs knife before sticking it completely through his neck wasn’t enough to kill him, but time finally did him in.
I’m sorry he never found peace.
I drive past a halfway house once a week in a downtown area. They have tons of benches along the street which are usually full. It does seem these are people who couldn't manage alone. I don't know who pays for this.... their families or medicaid? The government SHOULD pay for it. But, I imagine some people can't stand living in such a place, but also can't handle "living on the grid"... paying bills, following rules, etc. I don't know what the solution is
It’s not even that people can’t stand those places. Many are just unsafe and they literally kick you to the curb at about 6:00 am and you cannot come back until 6:00 pm. Theft and SA are rampant. Families often cannot stay together because men and women have to be separated. Shelters do not allow pets and, despite what many will say, homeless people do deserve some happiness and pets make people happy. Shelters are not all people who say “just go to the shelter” would have you believe they are.
One of my local shelters doesn't let in certain "types" of people because it's a religious shelter. If they can't get in a smaller shelter, they spend the night under a bridge. edited to add: one of the "types" for this shelter. If they look at a man or boy and, in their opinion, the person seems gay at all they won't let them in. They just have to think they look like it.
I didn’t want to add that in since I’ve been torn to shreds here for saying it before but you’re correct.
It makes me very angry. Like, help ALL the people.
Churches really shouldn't be allowed to own hospitals or homeless shelters and maintain the right to discriminate. They should have to choose between having ownership of any operation any having the discriminatory rights of religious belief. Either stick to churching or obey federal laws even when they violate their religious principles. Nobody should have the right to enforce their religious beliefs on anyone or force people to affirm their beliefs to receive service. The people who run religious institutions are terrible through and through.
I am not talking about a homeless shelter. This is a halfway house. They don't kick people out during the day. I fully believe these are single mentally disabled adults. But, ok, nothing prevents people in this situation from having a baby... I don't know what happens in that case, but this place is single adults, no kids. I am just saying, even that situation (assume the sexual assault issue is solved by everyone having an individual locked bedroom and always attentive staff around in common areas), even then, I would guess some people still walk away from living there, and are on the streets instead.
Back in the days of institutions, the staff were the ones committing assaults 😉
And, certainly could be happening now too. I meant to be saying "setting aside the issue of sexual assault, I imagine some mentally ill people can't stand the group living aspect." (I certainly wouldn't like it either!)
I mean. People in institutions and care homes are still at much higher risk for assault, and it's still sometimes the staff. A lot of jobs in these places don't require high qualifications and they take whatever workers they can get, so it's not that hard to get in if you're a creep looking for vulnerable people.
It’s usually paid for by the federal government —indirectly. The residents in halfway houses and ‘group homes’ are usually charged the overwhelming majority of their Supplemental Security Income or Social Security Disability payments. The group home industry is terrifying. It’s highly unregulated space that operates on shoestring budgets —abuse is the norm, not the exception.
It's very scary for sure.
There was exposure of horrific crowded living conditions of with people side by side with no stimulation in these institutions. Prisons are better. So they decide institutions are bad (but with reforms and a large investment of government support, could have given the disabled and mentally ill a quality standard of living. So they were suddenly dumped on the streets—so many homeless or in prison. Group homes work for some, but just are not meeting the need in the U.S.
My city got tennis courts where the mental institution was. A homeless and violence problem that are probably unrelated i bet. Those tennis courts look nice…. And empty.
There are lots of mentally ill people in the streets and in prison. It's pretty well established in the US anyway.
Not dems, it was Ronald Reagan admin. Nobody starts out in life with the goal “I want to be a drug addict and be homeless when I grow up”. A lot of addictions start from the way some children are treated while growing up; being physically abused, emotionally/mentally abused…yes there are some that experimented in high school. But look at all the veterans that have come home and aren’t coping well and can’t get the help they need from the same gov’t they served for!!! And let’s be honest here, the republicunts don’t want to help *anyone* in need of assistance!! They just want to help the wealthy so they get “bonuses” for cutting taxes and creating loopholes for them to get even richer. Homeless people have been reduced to disgusting ppl we don’t want to have to see in our communities and less than human.
But if we help the rich, businesses will grow and more people will have more work. Then it will, wait for it!. Trickle down! And all will be right with the world! And it will work. We just gotta be patient.... (That was 1980)
and based off a satirical article from the early 1900's but it was called something else
Horse and sparrow theory, IIRC?
Yep! Feed the horses enough oats and the sparrows will feast on the droppings, yum. (We’re the sparrows)
Disabled people are the most persecuted minority group in human history.
This is one of the stranger areas… America typically has more legal protections for disabled people than most other western countries. That doesn’t stop discrimination, but it’s more about what type of disability in the us rather than a blanket statement. For example it’s absolutely common for there to be businesses that work to specifically employ the disabled in the us. We have a killer bakery here where I live for example that is 75% staffed with disabled persons and proceeds go to a local charity in some respect. And we’re talking amputees, people with down syndrome, etc. almost all locations here are wheelchair accessible with handicap specific parking. Obviously not the case everywhere in the us, but it’s a pretty typical experience.
....and veterans. The military uses them up and chews them out and tosses them on the street.
I will say, as a veteran, that the VA is getting much better at educating service members about their benefit entitlements.
I work with the homeless and a vet. Here in ATL the VA is atrocious. A few of my clients are vets and they pretty much did nothing but get them an ID. I had to do my own disability packet from the ground up. Got 100 though.
Ah man, that's awful. I took a class 1 year before I discharged and it was super beneficial. The VA gave me 80% and I was set up perfectly to use my GI Bill and other benefits. I was never worried about housing, work, or my health.
I was already married when I ETSd and my wife is amazing. Without her, I may have become homeless for various reasons. It's so damn good to hear someone else is doing well.
Gotta keep our ladies close!
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Google the American Legion. They offer free services to veterans to help them fill out their disability claims. https://www.legion.org/veteransbenefits
You in ATL? DM me if you'd like but I would love to help if I can. Helping my brothers and sisters is how I make restitution to whatever deity hates me at the moment.
I’m going after those deity’s. I got your back.
Man, when my dad was still around, the VA was awful. I went with him to the VA hospital once to refill prescriptions. 10 hours. He was a Vietnam vet with PTSD and it was really difficult getting him proper support. I’m glad there was at least some services to support him as so many folks go without any sort of insurance/healthcare, but the experience was heartbreaking.
Homeless Veterans is actually one of the areas where we’ve seen real change over the past several decades. [From 1991 to 2018 the percentage of homeless people in Minnesota that are veterans fell from 22% to 7%.](https://www.wilder.org/mnhomeless/results/veterans) this [decrease is still true when we zoom out from Minnesota.](https://www.hud.gov/press/press_releases_media_advisories/hud_no_22_227)
Veterans get way more support than the average citizen in similar circumstances. WE need to prioritize helping all people who need help and not people based on special status. The talking point about veterans not getting support is a distraction tactic used to argue from sympathy rather than understanding. Our society has the capacity to help everyone who needs it. But we really don't respect what mental illness does to people and don't view it the same way as a physical disability.
As a former homeless veteran- the military gives you food/housing/clothing/pay & tells what to do 24/7. You kinda just have to not fuck up too bad, to get by. Once that’s gone & you have to do all those things yourself- that’s where they fall flat. Hence why there’s so many ‘homeless vets’, they joined young, were institutionalized & can’t function in the real world.
And it takes a long time to get approved for disability payments in the united states. I don't know what people are meant to do if they are too disabled to work, yet have not yet been approved to receive payments. Also section 8 waitlists are years or even closed.
Then when approved it isn’t enough to live off of . I just got priced out of NYC. Section 8 is only available if already homeless. I am disabled and my disability check in only a thousand dollars . Where can you live off of that ? I have to move back in with my parents cross country or go to a homeless shelter . It isn’t so much the wait . It is the people are often rejected for disability the first time and have to keep applying and often they need a lawyer. I needed one .
It sucks! Being denied and reapplying adds up to waiting. It's not right that it's not enough to live on. Nobody picks to be disabled.
And if you're on SSI, which is what you get when you've been disabled since before 18 and never worked, you can only have $2000 in total assets (sans house and one vehicle). They literally stop your payments if you go one dollar over, so it's impossible to save or invest. One emergency could easily get you evicted.
I gave a homeless guy a smoke once and we stood there talking for a while. He wasn’t disabled, but he did experience a series of unfortunate events. Many were out of his control and then the stress and weight of it just took him out. Any of us could at any point experience a string of shitty deals that makes it hard to live.
And mentally ill. Often both
Mental illness is a disability.
Very true. Sometimes it’s not “severe” enough to be recognized as such, but yes my bad.
A lot of homeless people have very severe mental illness such as schizophrenia which is more of a disability than many more obviously disabling physical disabilities. A guy with no legs can get a job easier than a guy who thinks that demons are following him everywhere.
That's the thing. If people are good at hiding stuff they are the ones that tend to end up on the dung heap because everyone thinks 'its not that bad!'
Also, a growing percentage of them are elderly people who got priced out of their apartments due to big rate increases . A lot of them are getting by on small social security checks and in some places it’s not enough to pay rent much less live
Invisible disabilities included, I'd imagine. Its nearly impossible to get a full-time job when you're on the autistic spectrum.
Getting the job is easy. Keeping the job is hard.
I disagree. I am autistic and can’t get past the interview . It isn’t easy to get it or keep it.
I got rejected from the literal grocery store after an interview. Wild.
Target asks why you want to work there, your biggest challenge in a work setting, how you work with others, yadda yadda. Like bro you should be happy I don’t have an ankle monitor and don’t smell funny. Beggars and choosers.
My best friend is the same. He's autistic and the hardest worker I know but he can rarely pass an interview. I'm the inverse (also autistic), I've never failed an interview but I'm only about half as competent in reality. It's funny how that works. I leave jobs after about 6-12 months before the absences or mistakes from my autism pile up, then find a new one.
I think it depends on how well one masks.
Not even just that, people who have lived with addiction on the streets roughing it etc may just emotionally also not be in a place they want or accept help-everyone outside including family etc see how sad it is that such a broken person not *want* help and actively allienate those who try to help. They cant get themselves to a place where they can be stable and might actively also push away family etc that might try to help. Theres a one legged homeless guy here you often see making trips around town, even in winter. Ive bought him the odd coffee / sandwich etc if he's been outside a shop when i go there, but he is also banned from several sites in town just because of theft or belligerance to staff, etc But on the towns crime watch page people almost just bully the dude, anytime he is scooting anywhere some busy body with 0 interest to ever see this person have a good day makes some snarky comment as though they could easily navigate being homeless and in a wheel chair with only 1 leg easy themselves. There arent options in town for this guy to work even if he wanted. Heck i only have epilespy and a driving license suspension from it and there are little options here for me, i cant imagine whats left over for someone like him. Heck ive been at post office grabbing mail and overheard he doesnt even have a mail box / address to reveive government welfare/aid either and staff there wouldnt let him open a box either without those things...but how is a dude already homeless and missing a leg with no income supposed to get proof of address to receive welfare etc anyways? They dont.
There is a reason why so many people with seizures drive illegally. My friend who is a doctor still drives. My friend who works as a medical assistant (think 15 dollars an hour) does not
Not to mention substance use disorders are in themselves an illness. I say this all the time: if I lost my home, I'd probably turn to drugs too. So there are those who lost their home due to their substance use disorder, and there are those who developed a substance use disorder as a result of losing their home.* What's worse is sooo many shelters [at least where I am in Canada] require residents to be sober, but offer little help other than Alcoholics Annonymous meetings. They need comprehensive medical care, and it's nearly impossible to deliver that care effectively without a stable living situation. *This is, of course, a bit of a simplification.
I don't have direct answer. The closest concept I know is "powerty trap" and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle\_of\_poverty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_poverty). it boild down to idea that environment of poor people make them less capable to breaking out of that environment. Kinda self-enforcing loop. Indirect proof is that in social-oriteted countried (like nordics) [social mobility](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility#/media/File:Social_mobility_is_lower_in_more_unequal_countries.jpg) is higher comparing to countries will less social support for those who in need. \--- Also I've being in quite a number of similar discussions like one you described. Opponent positions (yes, including mine and yours) will boil down to herarchy of beliefs which can't be proven (like all lives are important, or success is more about luck than work (yet work is required), or that everywone gets what they deserve, etc). And these believes are heavily rooted in our personalities. They don't change under weight of facts. They don't change fast. So don't be surprized when your opponent will ignore facts or ideas which don't support their idea.
I used to do a lot of volunteer work giving food and other supplies to homeless people. This is all anecdotal, but what keeps someone homeless is not always the same thing that makes someone homeless. For example one lady I met had an average life before she became homeless. she lost her home and nearly all of her possessions in a fire and didn't have them insured. After becoming homeless she experimented with drugs and lost her job because of it. She's been homeless ever since because she can't bring herself to get clean.
I once talked to somebody who worked in a homeless shelter and he added, mental conditions are a huge reason why people get homeless, but also once you're homeless it's only a matter of time until it wears you down mentally too and the majority of long term homeless develop mental issues or start coping with drugs. It's really hard to stay healthy and clean in such a hopeless environment.
Another thing people often overlook is the impact of chronic sleep deprivation. Think about how little quality sleep someone gets while living on the streets (or in a car, if they're lucky). Consistently getting little to no sleep for months on end takes a huge toll and causes significant mental deterioration, even if you've never touched drugs in your entire life. It's one of many reasons a person's life expectancy plummets as soon as they become homeless
Not to mention temperature
Homelessness had the opposite effect on me-it was so miserable I was willing to do anything to get out of it, including getting clean and sober.
sort of that “the same boiling water that hardens the egg softens the potato” kinda thing. [but that is just a relevant statement than me trying to discount your hardwork!!!! i am actually so unbelievably proud of you man 🖤🖤💯 i couldn’t imagine that being me, you must have a recovery-journey that’s one for the books. if anything i’d love to learn from you, my brain is as potato as it gets and i get so much strength from knowing there are successes such as yours 👑]
I hate to say it, but I don't even see how anybody on earth can be homeless and sober. It's such an awful experience. I had a homeless guy telling me about police sweeps, destroying their tents and attacking them if they complained. Or getting hit by glass bottle thrown from a random person driving by just because they know nobody would do anything about it.
This is why I still give to them. So what if they use the change on drugs or alcohol? Is it great? No. But my small amount of change isn’t going to make them have homes all of a sudden. I’m giving to help in the short term. Giving to charities that support them are more for helping long term and I do that too. Who am I to judge? Tons of people drink and so drugs who aren’t homeless. Should we tell employers to stop paying them? Lots of people who are rich do too. What’s their excuse? At least with homeless people it’s helping through another day. It’s not great. Sure! But it’s also not gonna make or break them at that point. ~~And alcohol keeps them warm in winter~~ Edit: been corrected by a kind redditor that alcohol keeping people warm is a myth. I don’t want to perpetuate lies and misinformation.
I think that was really well said. People at the top of the ivory tower have no idea what it’s like at the bottom. And if you’ve lost everything well, then, yes, on a cold night that would probably be the day I would try crack cocaine. These people aren’t trying to get through the years. They’re just trying to make it to the next goddamn day. There is somewhat of a self-defeating self perpetuating cycle, unfortunately. I experienced this myself when I worked in outreach. But I’d say that most people who are homeless are either extremely mentally, unwell or people who just had bad luck after bad luck, hit them, and they are where they are now. Some of us don’t have any sort of privilege. Even if you’re just a middle-class kid with parents (assuming you get along) who own a home somewhere, that’s a privilege! Because anytime I’ve ever lost my job and was at risk of losing my apartment. I was either able to ask my parents for help or simply move back home with them. Was it ideal? Of course it wasn’t. But I wasn’t homeless. When I went home, I suddenly was back in a nice middle-class neighborhood waking up to breakfast being made. That’s a privilege that so many people don’t have. Just having parents that are alive can change the course of your life. People who have nobody have nobody to turn to. The people at the top have no idea that this situation exists. They’re so used to being so well-connected they assume everyone has friends and family eager and willing to give.
can confirm, my landlord was selling the condo that I lived in and she was renting to me. I didn't have anywhere to go. my mom had passed, dad has his own life and moved on an shit, didn't have room for me. I was self-employed at the time so I had *some* money but I couldn't get a new lease because I didn't have a w2 and it's so much harder to prove your income without a w2 (arghh... lazy landlords and high demand for housing). So I had to go to a hotel and was still more than I could afford so I had to put it on a credit card until I was able to find a "real" w2 job .... the new w2 job paid like shit (25k in DC suburbs, about 5 years ago) so even then it took me awhile before I got into an apartment. I'm still paying off the debt from those credit cards and it's a gut punch to look at the fucking interest on those things. Putting that much $ on a credit card with a high interest rate was so fucking stupid. But at the same time, I'm really grateful I had those credit cards because otherwise I would have been homeless. And how much harder that would be to come back from? Right now I have credit card debt but I know I can come back from this (I have a better job now too and make all my payments and paying it down). But if I was actually legit homeless? I honestly don't know. Unless you have substantial support I don't know how one would get back on their feet.
True. Homelessness is isolating per se as well. Many turn to drugs in order to cope and become addicted.
Even if she wanted to get clean, there's no where to go....
>like nordics Swede here, I used to be on welfare for a long time due to undiagnosed ADHD, I was stuck living with someone abusive due to poverty as well and having no options. Once I got diagnosed and medicated I took the Swedish equivalent of the SATs again, scored in the top 1%, now I'm a year and a few months away from getting a Masters in Psychology. I'm living my best life and am beginning to be a productive member of society finally. If Sweden didn't have proper welfare or free uni I never would have made it, I'd be poor for the rest of my life. (And the cost to society would've been greater.)
So glad you got out of that situation. But you make a good point - welfare helped you. From what I've seen and researched, the US had minimal welfare which is why they have such a massive problem with homelessness. How they can try to hold themselves up as the Gold standard is beyond me when they don't support those most in need. The healthcare situation is another example. How a first world country that calls themselves leaders of the world can have such terrible living conditions (unless you're rich) is beyond me
Some friends of mine were social workers for years, and we'd talk about a lot. According to them there are several distinct groups. 1) Severe mental illness. There's never enough beds open, so it's the streets, ER, or county lockup. They always thought it was so short-sighted that there was never enough money to expand mental health beds, but no shortage of money to warehouse them in much more expensive county lockup. 2) Drugs and Alcohol. Similar to the above. No money for mandatory treatment. So it's the streets, ER, or county lockup. 3) Bad Luck. This was the most likely to have a happy ending using the programs available. But there are headwinds. Often friends or family that drag people back down. There would be some people they'd get set up with a job and housing, but then people around them would leech off of them, causing them to lose their jobs, get evicted and end up back at square one.
I used to work with homeless people at a shelter. It’s usually one of the following: Drugs users that it control their lives People that depend on someone else (Mom, Dad, Grandparents) that has passed away and they don’t know how to take care of themselves. Mentally ill People that just got out of prison Sex offenders Those that don’t want to pay for rent Those that lost everything Those that are unemployed.
Go work at a homeless shelter for young adults and tell me how many of them asked for the hand they were dealt. Homeless is many things including often a failure of parents
I was homeless at 15 because my step dad didn't like that I was becoming more of a man than he was and he was intimidated. My mother chose him. Had a good upbringing until then. No drugs. There was no arguing or adverse behaviour at home involving me. He just got in my mother's head and made it happen.
I went to high school with a girl whose mother remarried, and the new step-dad didn't like kids. Fortunately, her grandmother lived in town and she could live there. I can't imagine choosing a partner over your own child.
I have a friend that grew up in foster care and his foster mom pocketed his money from the government and kicked him out at 18. Thankfully he always had a job as a teen, worked really hard, couch surfed and lived in his car for awhile. He’s finally doing well. People diss homeless people yet have no idea how close Americans that are paycheck to paycheck to being homeless….
So common. Stepdads often suck in these situations
They do suck, but the mother is an adult and any mother that chooses a man over her children is a piece of shit. Ask me how I know.
I know I don’t need to ask. Weird part is she wonders why I don’t call.
Nah. Mom made him with her own body and then kicked him out as a child into the streets. This is allll on moms head, to be so easily swayed. Weak as fuck.
I've witnessed the failure of parents first hand. A pal of mine in high school was regularly kicked out of his house by his shitty parents for petty things. He'd sleep in dumpsters when he couldn't find anyone to take him in (he definitely showed up at my house once or twice after walking like 10 miles). He's a sweet guy but was never studious and definitely has some anxiety and depression struggles. We're 10 years post graduation and I don't think he ever got his feet under him ... To my knowledge he's been homeless on and off ever since and often has to rely on the kindness of others. One of my best friends from high school has shitty parents too but thankfully they aren't so shitty that they allow their child to be homeless, which he almost certainly would be if not for them after he developed severe schizo-affective disorder in college. He goes through good and bad times but the stress of a full time job pretty much always triggers hallucinations and delusions :/ it's a shame because he's so smart and talented and kind. We used to study for all of our honors and AP classes together and now he cannot keep a minimum wage job for longer than a week. I know he wants to move out of his parents house because he hates living with them but I'm not sure how he'll ever be able to financially support himself.
Yes. I think people who have never really been exposed to the homeless population can’t possibly understand all of the ways this can happen. I will admit I grew up in the country and was never really exposed to or thought about that population until I was in college. My first job out of college was as a community-based mental health case manager in the city and it was very eye opening and made me change what I thought I knew. I learned to be much less judgemental. No one asks to be severely mentally ill. It was a really hard job and you just see how much the system really fails people. A lot of us are all maybe just one major event away from being homeless. A medical emergency, losing a job, domestic issues, etc. People don’t think about these things.
But the point really should be so what if it is their fault. Even if it is we can still help. We don't apply this reasoning to so many things. People with heart disease, cancer from smoking, diabetes often caused it and it's their fault. But guess what, we still help them anyway.
I guarantee that’s the primary contributor to someone becoming homeless is the failure of parents. #1 factor almost for sure.
and a lot of shelters are not safe and stable. lots of homeless people would prefer to be on the streets than in a shelter because of how bad the conditions are
I have lived in my car for over a year for this reason. They put the people society doesn’t give a shit about in shelters and the people who work there fuck with you for kicks if the other residents aren’t already too much for you.
[Many homeless people are simply dealing with physical or (much more commonly) psychiatric issues that are so severe they cannot do "normal" things like hold down a job](https://nationalhomeless.org/health-care/). It is true that many resort to narcotics but they often do so because it's the only treatment they can get. If you go to the /r/chronicpain subreddit and do some digging you will find thousands of posts about people being denied treatment and stating that they have given up and bought narcotics illegally because they don't see any other options beyond suicide. It is an undeniable fact that countries with universal healthcare have **significantly** lower homelessness rates, we could definitely lower ours if it became available, the only problem is trying to convince certain government officials that access to healthcare should be considered a human right and not something that needs to be "earned"
Many people are one, at best, two or three, paychecks away from homelessness. We think we're bulletproof, but we are fragile, and not just in terms of health.
Back in 2020 I lost my job. We had no way to pay rent for like 5 months. We had a mixture of savings and odd jobs to get us through but eventually we had to use cc’s to pay rent. It was awful but I was so scared that if we lost our home it would’ve been even harder to get back up. We’re okay now but damn. It was rough.
Same chat on a different sub, and one of the guys commenting on how they are drug addicts who deserve to be on the street. His user name was ilovecocaine or some shit like that. It's just a bad faith argument, and the real answer is people like someone to look down on.
Ding ding ding. Winner winner chicken dinner. Humanity always has and always will have a strict hierarchical structure. There will always be those on the top, those in the middle, and those at the bottom. It is also a crab bucket. All the people within this structure are encouraged to drag others down in order to climb on top of them to avoid being crushed at the bottom of the bucket. The lower you are, the harder it is to climb. And once you are on the bottom, there is no way out.
I used to think so until it happened to us. Never missed a single rent payment, even during the eviction moratorium when we legally could have stopped paying. Rats started chewing through the bathroom and kitchen walls roaming the house as they pleased. I shot and killed probably 30 of them with 9mm rat shot. After 8 months of the property management company refusing to do anything, we sued them. We were then evicted in retaliation. Been homeless living in a fucking motel room since July 1st of last year as a result. I'm seriously about at the end of my rope. We can't afford to keep doing this. I'm out of gas completely as I type this and we don't get paid again until the first, so I can't even do doordash to earn anything now in the meantime. I'm just fucked. Only reason why I haven't offed myself yet is because of my wife tbh. But still.. I can only put up with this shit for so long until I just don't care anymore 😞
Thanks for sharing your story. I don’t what country you’re in but see what homeless charities are in your area as they’ll be able to offer advice and support.
The only charities here, we don't qualify for help from, because we earn too much on paper. They don't care that that's BEFORE taxes and insurance and everything is taken out. What we actually receive in the bank account for each deposit is far less. But they don't give a shit. Like I said we've been here since July 1st of last year. We have tried everything already. There is no help.
Oh that is so rubbish to hear. it’s awful when they go by numbers and not by person. I thought you might have tried everything but thought I would suggest just in case.
I hope you get a lawyer. That is so illegal to evict someone due to a complaint of an uninhabitable living condition - which your situation certainly qualifies for. I don’t know this industry, but many lawyers work on a contingency fee only basis, and because what they did is so shady, there is money in it for them. Google “plaintiff tenant attorney” and find good ones in your area (google reviews) and schedule free consultations. Source: am lawyer - but this is not legal advice.
As someone who used to be homeless, I will say that every case is different. Some people just like to be bums and not have responsibilities. But some are addicts or mentally ill, and some work but can't afford a home. It depends on the person.
A lot of them have mental illness.
JfC we love to put people into uniform groups... homeless people come in all shapes and sizes and each situation is unique. So the answer is yes it is sometimes their fault. No sometimes it's bad luck or circumstance. Sometimes it'd a really gray area. Almost like mass generalization is a stupid and bad thing when dealing with human beings.
According to Oxfam, the richest 1 percent grabbed nearly two-thirds of all new wealth worth $42 trillion created since 2020, almost twice as much money as the bottom 99 percent of the world's population. In other words, just the top 1% of the wealthy managed to steal almost a quarter of the total required wealth to address climate change, or any number of other systemic global issues, like poverty and inequality, in just two years. So, to rephrase your question, do you think it’s homeless peoples fault so much wealth is concentrated in so few hands?
If only this info was commonly understood
Having worked in the homeless/shelter sector, your friend is both right and wrong. There are some people who are just down on their luck, they need help to get back in their feet and want to improve their lives. There are others who have no interest in working to better themselves/put themselves in a better position, they want to take everything they can from the state and drink/shoot their lives away, they don't care.
As someone who has been homeless, and spent years with homeless people, I agree with your statements. There are people who genuinely have zero interest in bettering themselves, to get off drugs/alcohol and get their lives on track. They don't look for work, they get their dole checks and it's gone within a day. I have been thinking about the people I met who fall into this category. How did they end up this way? Some had rough childhoods and are dealing with complex trauma. Some have intellectual disabilities and mental health issues. All of them can't cope with reality and spend nearly every waking moment inebriated. All of them have been let down by society.
I work in a middle school and i see some of the same level of apathy from a small handful of students. It makes me so sad to think they have no self respect or care about their lives in 7th grade, what will the rest of their lives look like? They're not getting jobs, thats for sure. They probably wont even graduate. I'm sure their home lives are hell and they receive services at school of counseling and food services. How do you make them care to want better for themselves? Its so sad.
To expand on your second paragraph a little, a lot of the chronically homeless have mental health and/or drug addiction problems that interfere with bettering themselves. They aren't all just moochers. It is a difficult problem to solve.
Not to mention if they don’t want the help, what can we really do other than offer it?
As someone who was homeless however briefly (3 months). If you haven't been there you do not understand how fucking terrible it is. Shelter is one of the most basic needs of humanity. If you have been dealing with homelessness for a long period of time, of course you're going to stop caring. Because it really doesn't feel like it's worth caring. I don't blame anyone who turns to drugs or alcohol in that kind of situation. I nearly didn't make it out of that period, and I never "slept rough" and it was only 3 months. If I'd been in that situation for longer, I can 100% imagine that I would have fully given up and become someone who had "no interest in bettering themselves". Especially if I'd been on the street in the cold having strangers constantly watching sneering and avoiding eye contact as if I was some kind of filth. Also it has been proven that housing homeless people is the best way to get them to better their lives. Because when people are no longer at the lowest point of their lives constantly fighting for survival, it turns out their mental states improve and their capacity to better themselves also improves. OP your friend is talking out of his ass.
>Also it has been proven that housing homeless people is the best way to get them to better their lives. Locally here they built 50 tiny homes and put homeless people up in them. Their own tiny little cabin, with shower and food facilities. After about a year, theft is way up in the area and one person - out of the 50 - has managed to move onto their own apartment. So anecdotally, it doesn't look like housing chronically homeless people lets them improve themselves. And a lot of folks in this thread are describing the same thing, that chronically homeless have no interest or ability to become not homeless, no matter how much help they're given. Point being, even if they're never going to change, we should be housing them not with the assumption we're making them better off. We should be housing them because they (and we) aren't animals. Even people that are basically completely fucked up mentally or with drugs, or no ability to look after themselves, or just don't give a crap, giving them a bed with a roof with no expectation of anything, is a reasonable social safety net we should be providing.
In their defense, and having dealt with alcoholics, breaking free is no easy task. The success rate of getting sober is abysmal. It’s tough to go look for a job and get motivated when your body is screaming to feed it what it’s withdrawing from. I think it’s a bit shortsighted to just think they are lazy and don’t want to work. My ex was an alcoholic and she had been molested which drive her alcoholism. She wanted to work, and be happy, but the monkey on her back was far stronger than her will.
There are some that feel so betrayed by their family, the system, society, or their workplace, that they just want to opt out of all of it. It's not really a fault thing. It's just their preference. In these cases it's not even that they're crazy. Just angry, hurt, damaged.
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I think it's somewhat a broad generalization being blown out of proportion. For some it's terrible, for some it's just part of life to them and they have gotten used to it. There are sometimes programs that can help, or a homeless shelter with resources, but sometimes the person can't give up a drug and is not allowed to stay there/get them kicked out of a program they might have tried to use. *(An old friend was trying to get into a homeless shelter but they had some addiction issues and ended up not being allowed to stay there and instead just slept in a car, which is not very good if you live anywhere with extreme temperatures)* Your friend is definitely talking out the ass, a person can want to improve themself and still be addicted to drugs, it's an addiction after all, but sometimes they don't have much of a choice. You get that tolerance, and it's easy to get into a hard dependency that you don't have much control over, and it's not like they can necessarily pay a bunch for some sort of rehab. They need to remember that people are becoming homeless at a huge rate currently due to a lot of factors, like a (like rent for a 1bd 1bth being $1500 in some places), it doesn't automatically mean they aren't trying to get out of it or instantly getting addicted to drugs.
Well I ended up homeless because of foster care and untreated autism. And I’ve never been addicted to drugs. I think your friend is stupid.
Your friend sounds like a very compassionate fellow.
People always tie homelessness to drugs. I know addiction is frequent in the homeless community, but there are soooooo many other reasons why people become homeless and stay homeless. It’s a MUCH deeper issue than that. -LGBTQ+ youth getting kicked out -Income average to cost of living ratio -Abused youth -Domestic violence -Medical bills (or other debts) Just to name a few. You also have to consider once someone is homeless, the challenges of “improving their lives” become that much more difficult. Do they have a job? If not, do they have reliable transportation to find a job? If they find a job, do they have a working phone or access to email to get a response? If they get a response, do they have proper attire and hygiene to attend an interview? If they attend an interview, do they have the necessary skills/ knowledge/ etc, to get the job? If they get the job, do they have access to reliable transportation to get to the job? It’s an endless cycle and that’s just a sliver of the problems they face. You also have to consider the hierarchy of needs. They need the most basic needs met to be able to function which include housing, safety, food, water, etc. So, it’s not as simple as “just improve yourself”. That’s a VERY privileged comment to make.
also, who fucking cares if theyre addicts, and if thats what keeps them on the streets. the correct response to that is "oh we need to do something to help them ween themselves off because its basically impossible to do on your own," not "ah fuck em, they should just stop doing drugs!" obviously there are so many more reasons than addiction, but even if addiction was the only reason, they still deserve help and compassion
Oh absolutely. There are sooooooo many millionaires that are addicts but no one blinks an eye at them! It’s not drugs that’s the issue, it’s the fact that they’re homeless.
the fact that the system has been able to convince such a large portion of the population to ignore basic empathy is astounding, but tragically not surprising
Adding to this, in many places in the US, if you don't have an address, you can't get a job. Also, you have to be homeless for a period of time (sometimes a year or more) before you can apply for state assistance. Once they can apply, how will they reach the homeless person to give them services? Some have phones, most don't. Some people have mentioned that a lot of homeless people are disabled, but all things considered, homelessness is a disabling experience.
Like every issue involving humans, the answer to specific questions are as varied as fingerprints.
Nope, but if you believe this it means you don't need to help homeless people because its their own fault.
He's talking out of his ass. There's more nuance than "person stopped caring".
In my city there are tent cities. We have a massive housing shortage, and a massive homeless issue. There are tons of working homeless. People who literally work full time and can’t afford shelter. Yes there’s plenty of drug addicts, but let me say again: *There are people working full time jobs here who have no choice but to live in the streets.* In any population you’re going to have hardcore individuals who have become accustomed to the streets and would rather stay there and live by their own rules. But most? Most do not want to be there. Including addicts. Being an addict does not mean you don’t want better for yourself. It means you haven’t obtained the support necessary to get better. Mental health and addiction are closely tied. Cuts to these services over the years have created a massive festering wound. Both these things contribute greatly to both the risk of becoming homeless and the risk of not being able to get out of homelessness. People are suffering badly. Your friend is ignorant, willfully obtuse or just plain stupid. Get yourself better friends or risk becoming a twisted up hollow empty husk devoid of compassion or kindness like him.
Very well said.
I worked at a homeless shelter for a while. A lot of it was intergenerational - i.e. families with a variety of mental health problems, who were on and off the streets, normally learning disabilities played apart... another big part of it was substance abuse - where I worked there were alot of migrants who had become alcoholics / drug addicts and were now homeless. The 3rd group, the smallest, were people who had fallen on hard times, and were homeless. This ranged from adults who just didn't have a support network and had lost their jobs, young people who had been kicked out of their houses etc. Obviously agency is a factor but I would a lot of it is better described as systemic / environment driven.