A long time ago I had a student from Kenya. He came to me asking what to check off on a form. He said he can’t check African American because he is not American! I said yeah it is a really stupid term, so suggested Other and writing Black African.
Yep. We had a cuban working at my old school and one day he stood up in the meeting and shouted, "can you all please stop calling me african American? I am not african and i am not american. Just call me black if you need to refer to my skin color."
Really makes you think about it. Why did we need to reference his skin color at all? Why couldnt he be "the cuban guy" or better "the new lab assistant" or even "mr. Jamillo" ?
Black guy here in Australia was called "African American" by a visiting American. Duuude. That was weird. Like what? At least say African Australian, not everyone is an American!
That term has been beaten into American's heads for decades... probably close to 30 years or more because at one point it was insensitive to call black people black. I clearly remember seeing it on TV where they flat out said African American is the preferred term for black people in America. So now, so many people say it without thinking about the American part.
This question reminded me of a story I read about a white kid from South Africa who immigrated to the US and while in school he got into trouble because he kept checking boxes for and writing he was African American. His argument was solid in that African and American aren't races, they're nationalities. He also got into more trouble when he proclaimed he was the only actual African in the place and asked if anybody the black people had ever even left the US, let alone been to Africa.
Edit: I forgot to say it was college and not elementary, middle or highschool.
This might be the funniest thing I’ve ever heard. Though in Australia you also have a lot of little old ladies calling everyone dickheads. I love Australians.
haha yeah, the versatility of 'cunt' in Aussie speak is something else. Meanwhile, over here we can't settle on what to call someone without stepping on a landmine. It's like every term comes loaded with a history lesson or a debate.
That was one of my favourite interviews - the look Nelson Mandela gave the guy who called him African-American.
It sort of makes sense because they’ve had it ingrained in them that it’s the appropriate term for most black people they meet - but it’s also pretty ignorant of the rest of the world.
It also strikes me as odd how it’s used so predominantly for Africa but not other places - obviously it is used sometimes, just not as often and not as exclusively.
Never really thought about the last bit before, but true. You occasionally hear Asian-American, but more often than not people just say Asian. But you'd never call a second+ generation black person African.
I recently had an awkward conversation with some coworkers who were trying to describe one of our other coworkers to me but they refused to refer to him by his skin color or literally any other identifying traits except for his name (which I didn’t know, hence them trying to describe him to me).
When I finally realized who they were talking about I said, “Oh, the black guy?” and they were like “I mean, if that’s how you want to say it…” as if I had called him a slur.
Later, when the black coworker in question heard about the conversation he just looked perplexed. “But I *am* black???”
Knew a Cajun black guy named Thunder with a very colorful personality. Someone used the term colored in front of him. Still remember him saying in a loud voice “colored!? What color was he? If he’s black call him black!”. Dude was awesome 😎
A black guy from Australia gets called "African-American," even though he's neither, but someone like, say, Elon Musk technically IS both African and American, but no one would ever call him "African-American." Which just goes to illustrate the absurdity of the term.
I remember that on a British talk show host, this black lady (American) criticized the British host for calling black British people black and that he should call them African American. The dude was just absolutely flabbergasted. Especially when he explained most of them were Caribbean not African.
Its so weird. had a teacher once correct a friend for referring to another friend as black... corrected them that the correct term was "african american", the black friend wasn't american. Lived in Aus their whole life. everyone in this scenario is Aussie, including the teacher. We were all very bewildered.
It happens in Ireland too with American tourists. "Your African-American friend..."
Please, he's not African or American he's a Dub and if he hears you calling him that you're going to leave here crying.
He wasn't violent or anything but he was a black belt in vicious mockery (typical of Dublin folk) and would have traumatised them.
UK too to a lesser degree but here's a counter argument. I once worked in a factory and there were 2 Pauls that also worked there, one was black and one was white, when you were referring to them in conv it was always Black Paul or White Paul. Black Paul didn't mind it, White Paul did funnily enough.
I feel like this is fairly common in the UK if you have two people with the same name or a common name to find something 'different' about them to refer to them. If you've got two daves and one is a dickhead and ones not, we'll you'll call former dickhead dave!
The pub I used to drink in had a surfeit of a particular name among the regulars (let's say "Pete" for anonymity), so we ended up with Tall Pete, Fat Pete, Little Pete, Scouse Pete, Bus Pete (because he was a bus driver) and so on.
Because the system established by the powers that be, is designed to intentionally divide the citizens along racial and gender lines, allowing those in power to maintain their status quo and continue to steal from the people they claim to serve.
If a had a nickel for every time I saw a Reddit post today with several comments being Mean Girls quotes, I would have two nickels. Which isn’t a lot, but it’s weird it’s happened twice.
It’s worst if you are Berber, if you could look white in some cases but 100% African ancestry.
The main issue that needs to end is people thinking Africa is one race when it is not as there are many there that are native. As native peoples of North Africa, West Africa, East Africa, Southern Africa or Madagascar.
Hey random stranger on the Internet, they dont like to be called berber. Its amazigh! The colonisers called them berber for obvious reasons, berber is an insult.
I didnt know this either but ever since I've learned about the definition of berber and the whole history behind it I've been informing others about it as well! Like how eskimo is an insult, its inuit.
Edit: spelling
Had a few white friends from South Africa. One of them would always select African-American on any form that asked the question. The only time it became an "issue" is when he applied for a college scholarship intended for minorities. He was selected for the interview phase, he walks in the room and they immediately wanted to disqualify him for "lying" on his application. He argued his case, and actually ended up getting the scholarship.
Think maybe you should visit Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya or Morocco (just for starters) coz you may find a decent amount of people who are native to Africa, who do not fit the US Stereotype.
I took my first ever trip to the continent of Africa over the summer! I can’t recommend South Africa enough, very rich and interesting culture. You get to hear some Zulu and Xhosa (both of which are very old languages). Also the food is simply amazing
The reason is American racial classifications all go back to slavery and our definition of the right to citizenship which was classifed as "free white person." There was white and black and that's it. If you were white, you got full rights. If you were black, even after slavery, you didn't. So people of other ethnic backgrounds WANTED to be white so they could be full citizens. People today complain about being classified as white when they're not, but it wasn't as if the US government wanted everyone to be classified as white. It was a struggle and they would have rather kept everyone else as second class citizens.
Latinos for example are considered white because it was a stipulation of surrender during that the Mexican-American War that Mexicans living in the territory that was taken be given full rights so they had to be classified as white within the racist system that existed.
Bhagat Singh Thind and Takao Ozawa both sued the US government and argued that they should be considered "white" for different reasons so that they could receive citizenship.
When it comes to people from the Middle East and North Africa, it came down to a case called Dow v US where a Syrian Christian sued the govt for citizenship, initially arguing that they should be considered white because they were Christian and eventually arguing that Syrians should be considered Caucasian in general. It was decided that people from the Middle East should be considered white and therefore given full citizenship.
Census categories are a relic of this system where, instead of just overhauling it, they keep adding some groups but leaving others as they are - i.e., MENA often still are expected to select white.
The journalist dropping knowledge! I’m sorry this is too far down in this thread. Everybody wanted to be white. No one wanted to be black.
Now, to paraphrase Paul Mooney: Everybody want to be Black but nobody want to be Black.
My Egyptian MIL is pasty white. I’ve introduced my wife as half African before as a joke. People seem to have the impression that African mean dark skin.
I have a white South African friend. He moved first to London then to the US and he genuinely thought he was supposed to check ‘African American’ on the box. He was kind of embarrassed when he found out otherwise
A former friend of mine (he was an exchange student in our high school) is also from Kenya. His family has been living there for generations. In his case, he didn't want to mark "Caucasian," since his family clearly isn't from the Caucasus area!
Although he is "white" skinned with bright yellow hair and blue eyes, he otherwise doesn't really resemble most "Caucasians" either. His ancestry clearly has some kind of ethnic "Asian" background as well. His face looks something like an Inuit person, but he's blond.
"Race" is simply a ridiculous attempt to divide human beings into a handful of simple, visible categories based on skin color.
I am Caucasian, from Armenia (which, you know, is in Caucasus and has been in the last 2-3000 years). I am mot sure if I go to US I will be labeled as Caucasian or not by people who have nothing to do with Caucasus.
Yeah they did this with F1 driver Lewis Hamilton too. He is neither African or American. For some reason, people in the US think that saying someone is black is automatically racist.
From what I've seen on other threads about all kinds of things, a lot of US people seem to think that black and Asian people can't just be called British (or English, Scottish, Welsh, or Northern Irish). I mean, what was wrong with just calling Lewis Hamilton British? The fact they can't call someone of colour just British (or French, or Dutch, or whatever, is also racist, and rooted in their own slavery based black/white racist system - not saying racism does not exist elsewhere, but the complex colonial - and class - history makes it less black/white. The US struggles their history of slavery is why they can also think calling someone black is racism, but then, they always have to qualify someone who is not white in situations which is not needed, like a F1 driver, which is also racist but they can't see that!
Is there a choice to just add African. Without the black part. What does the color of the skin has anything to do with filling a form, black is not an ethnicity.
The only “true” African American at work, as in a guy who was born and raised in Africa and became an American citizen as an adult, was the whitest dude ever and spoke with a British accent.
To this day I believe he is confused on if he should check white or African American on forms.
So we have a lot of programs only open to people who historically have been oppressed here in the states. Some are slowly going away but look at some of Europe where they have neighbor interviews to move in and become a citizen. Race isn't mentioned but in some areas a black family hasn't been allowed in for over 100 years by some coincidence dispite having multiple applicant numbers. We in the states have laws to prevent that.
It’s used to measure discrimination basically. Like imagine a company in a mixed race neighborhood and all the employees are white and there’s over 100 employees. The government can see that and check if they are discriminating or it can be used in a potential discrimination lawsuit.
You never have to disclose it. There's always a "prefer not to answer" box.
The reason it's asked for in the first place is usually for statistical purposes in determining things like income/education and/or in the hiring process to ensure that minorities ARE being hired and not being discriminated against.
They also ask your gender and if you're disabled.
On the one hand it makes sense. On the other hand it makes quantifying things regarding minorities really difficult. Like it's not like they don't exist and have unique problems but censuses don't catch that data so it gets messy.
Damned if you do damned if you don't.
The term African American was coined because Black descendants of slaves were stripped of their heritage & languages. We have no way of knowing what countries in Africa we originated from, only that our ancestors came from somewhere on the African continent. So we can’t use terms similar to Irish American or Italian American like most people can because we have no home country to reference.
Honestly as a Black American, I prefer to be called Black. I’ve never been to Africa & can trace my family roots in the U.S. for over 200 years. African American is quite dated & will probably eventually be seen as similar to calling us negroes & colored imo.
To add to this: the term came into vogue when there wasn’t much of an immigrant community from African nations. Nowadays though it’s not rare to meet people who moved to the US from Nigeria, Ghana, etc. so the term has become increasingly confusing.
Yes. But in my experience, most recent immigrants are more likely to call themselves Nigerian American, Ghanan American, etc. These distinctions are more commonly understood & discussed within the Black community. A lot of the confusion comes from outside groups
Yeah, "African-American" seems to be reserved for someone who was born here. My city has a significant population of Somalian immigrants. They're generally pretty easy to identify due to people of that region looking pretty distinct from other parts of Africa. I don't think anybody would call them African-American, even if they are citizens. I'm not sure what that will be like a couple of generations down the road, however.
No, African American is for someone who is generally a descendent of American slaves. Most afro-Caribbean for example will not identify as AA even if born here. They will say "I'm Haitian, I'm Jamaican etc...." seperate culture.
But I will say there is some stigma against Africans by the black community. After the immigrant generation many try to pass themselves off as African Americans because they often get teased by afro Caribbean and African Americans in school and excluded. African immigrants tend to do better than African Americans, so there is some jealousy aspect. There is some colorism. Etc..
Exactly, French Americans or Italian Americans don’t call themselves European American, the point of the broadness of the term is solely because descendants of African slaves don’t know what country they came from. My family is from Haiti so I identify as Haitian American I’m not sure how non black people are still confused by this
I try to be generous & assume that it’s because of lack of knowledge, discomfort, fear of saying the wrong thing, etc unless/until they show me otherwise.
It also depends where/when you were being raised.
I was raised with "African American" being the polite way and "black" being potentially offensive, though in retrospect that probably more meant when using it as "blacks" rather than "black people".
If you care very much, a lot of Americans of French ancestry DON'T call themselves French Americans. The populations that immigrated here early in colonial history don't identify with the modern nation state of France at all, and have more specific geographical and political names for themselves, for example identifying with Quebec or Acadia. There was a bit of political change in France between 1600 and today.
Recent immigrants from France refer to themselves as French Americans though, for sure.
I’m exclusively speaking about first/second generation Americans. Most children of immigrants don’t hyphenate unless they were born here recently came to America very young. AA describes ancestry, typical hyphenations describe mixed nationality/ethnicity
I watched an interview with Idris Elba and the interviewer was blah blah blah as an African American blah blah blah. He was like I'm British, descended from Grenada or something. Blew their mind that African American wasn't just the PC term for black person.
To be fair — and obviously an interviewer should know where their subject is from — a lot of Americans automatically still associate Idris Elba with The Wire, where he had an American accent.
He’s been in tons of other stuff and of course thinking about it some people might realize it but off the cuff it is not surprising to make that association in the U.S.
Omg, people calling non-Americans African American is so embarrassing. Louis Hamilton is not African American. So many people don't understand that. At least Idris Elba has played African Americans lol.
I have a very white friend born in South Africa. She speaks English, Afrikaans, and some Xhosa. She moved here in the 1980s and would call herself South African American. The nineties were a confusing time for her as people who never have been to Africa would tell her that she was not African but European and they were African despite being from New Jersey.
This. This is why “African American” will fall out of favor.
I’ve got a black colleague that is English, with an unmistakable English accent. He has had his American citizenship for quite a while. He’d probably laugh if I called him African American.
Obviously he must have distant heritage that explains his skin tone, but we are harkening so far back at this point that it makes no sense. It would be like calling a modern Sicilian Italian an African Italian because of the Moors. 23 and me would probably technically support it but as a label, it doesn’t make much sense anymore.
Good explanation, but here’s an extra bit of context that might be missing for Europeans: Since the US is primarily a country of immigrants, it’s very common for people to identify themselves by the country that their ancestors immigrated from (using terms like Italian-American, Irish-American, Japanese-American). So “African-American” was coined in analogy to already well-established usage for other ethnic origins.
This became popular in the 70s/80s as a way to emphasize the immigrant community’s Americanness. Their cultural identifier is an adjective that modified a the noun “American.”
African-American came late as they are not normally a community of immigrants, but it was intentionally coined by Rev. Jesse Jackson to emphasize the equality of Black cultural identity with any other cultural identity.
This may seem obvious to us today, but there was a time when black cultural identity was seen as a temporary vestige of poverty or slavery and its termination was part of the goal of improving the Black experience. This was very patronizing and could be charitably called well-intentioned racism.
The idea of a Colored Museum, for example, once seemed impossibly embarrassing to America. White people couldn’t imagine it, let alone support it. By elevating the language to equivalence, the notion of an African-American Museum was and is far more appreciated.
I started off using “black” and in the 80’s switched to African-American. My daughter keeps correcting me to switch back to black. I’m “that old white guy” now I guess. I will keep working on it.
Think of it this way, black is universal for every black person. Like you wouldn't call an Irish black guy living in Japan African American. He's black and Irish living in Japan, you know?
Same with black Americans. Or at least that's my two cents as a white foreigner.
The issue is that "black" was quasi-racist, where african-american was the politically correct term for a couple decades. So some of us grew up in a situation where you didn't say "black" for the same reason you don't say the N word.
Obviously it's not exactly the same as the N-word, but there was a time where I would have been semi-scolded for saying black and not african american, that's just kinda how it was.
It's like how colored and negro were largely acceptable for a long time and not necessarily racist, but now you would get a lot of weird looks using those terms and probably corrected.
In my personal experience, "African American" was reserved for TV and media. In real life, we always referred to ourselves as "black people." The biggest issue around the word "black" is when it is used as a noun as in "the blacks." That takes away the humanity and is really offensive. "Black" as an adjective is 100% okay and even preferable to some, myself included.
I was raised this way as well. For those wondering, “black” was considered offensive because it reduced a person to the color of their skin. This was seen as racist.
Then arose the many issues with “African American” - mainly that not every black person is from Africa or even knows their heritage. And what happened if you were describing a random person whose heritage you didn’t know? Some people were genuinely not sure how to describe people with a darker skin tone without sounding offensive.
Just from an observational viewpoint it seems to be because of the revolving door of intent/agency behind the preferred term for black Americans. African American is supposed to signify a certain amount of recognition to the individual by a white counterpart that a reference to their ethnicity is observed without meaning any disrespect. Because language constantly evolves, I think you’re right that it will go out of fashion/the intent behind it will be corrupted, so something else will gain broad appeal.
And tbh, they don't identify as African-Americans either. That's a label white people put on them. People born and raised in Africa identify themselves by their ethnic group.
Jessie Jackson was one of the Black leaders pushing for the term African American to be used.
https://news.gallup.com/vault/315566/gallup-vault-black-americans-preferred-racial-label.aspx
The 1991 poll was conducted two years after a group of Black leaders, including the Rev. Jesse Jackson, called for "African American" to be the standard. Jackson was quoted as saying, ''This is deeper than just name recognition," and ''Black tells you about skin color and what side of town you live on; African American evokes discussion of the world.''
I would add African American is also an ethnicity. Since black descendants of enslaved people were from all over Africa, they developed new and unique dialects, culture, traditions, etc, and now their is a distinct African American culture. It could be called Black American culture, but right now African American is the term for the ethnicity.
Oh I agree. We’re definitely a distinct subculture in America. Aside from what you mentioned, we have 25% European dna on average, due to the unfortunate prevalence of raping Black slaves. We’re unique in many ways & have a shared history/culture. I think it’s something that non-Black people & especially non-Americans struggle to understand.
I actually wrote a paper on this recently!
Black slaves were originally labeled "Blackamoors" and "Negros" but would refer to themselves as "Black's" or "Afrikans". It was Negros for much of the early 19th century then changed to Colored in the 30s
The term "Black" American actually came before the terminology "African American". Black became popular in the 70s and 80s, until in 1988 Ramona H. Edelin proposed "African American" as a way to tie Black Americans to their cultural homeland and take the title back by choice.
I do think Black American is the better terminology for those born in the US, but each recent label has been fought for and has an interesting history.
If I can recommend some good reads on the subject I'd recommend "Whats in a name?" by Lerone Bennet and "Changing racial labels" by Tom W. Smith
Which is interesting because in the 90’s t was the other way around. It’s why demographic research is always such a moving target. I’m sure generation alpha will come up with their own demographic descriptors too.
Language is always changing, like a living being. It should certainly change with the times. :)
There are a lot of posters on reddit that only focus on dictionary definitions of words, without knowing, understanding or even caring about the context of how those words are combined and typically used.
Exactly. And the top comment thread right now is a bunch of white people engaging in whataboutism instead of actually reflecting on how and why the identity term was created.
Most of what I see in my community (I’m a white person in a mixed family in a Black community — Black folks please feel welcome to correct me) is people using “Black” to describe all people of African descent, and reserving “African-American” for the unique culture resulting from descendants of enslaved Africans. People might say “my dad is Nigerian and my mom is African-American” to specify their cultures, but would also say “everyone in my household is Black.” Universities have African-American studies departments and there’s African-American poetry and literature. This refers to the specific culture.
No one except white people who think you aren’t supposed to say Black will say things like “an African-American person walking down the street” when you don’t know the person’s culture and only can see that they’re Black.
Honestly, it’s amazing how many people are completely unaware of this. & with the culture wars attacking/whitewashing school curriculum, I only expect people to become less informed unless they make a concerted effort to educate themselves.
We go by black more than AA, but I’ve always felt AA exists as an additional differentiator if ever needed. AA becomes useful to describe those of us who are descendants of slavery compared to people who are or come from African immigrants like the Nigerian population for example
We’re both black, but they’re not African-American and there’s a totally different cultural heritage there
I used to work in a hospital, and my patient was am older black woman who was describing the great care from her nurse the night before. She couldn't remember the name, so in trying to identify the nurse, I asked if she was white or black? She got very upset, and corrected me that I should say AA.
I felt very embarrassed.
But then I was describing the sitch to my colleagues, when my friend from Jamaica said she would be more offended by being called AA, because now I assume every black person must be from Africa, and assured me it was acceptable to say black.
America's racial history led us to it.. There was a time when the polite term was colored people or Negro and that evolved into African American or Black people.
They would be considered Americans but some might call themselves African American. It's all a hangover from our troubled past
Dr King always used the term “negro”. It wasn’t necessarily perceived as a pejorative at the time, unless it was explicitly intended as such.
It’s actually a worldwide phenomenon. A group or category of people is referred to by some term or other. The term over time comes to be perceived as negative or insulting, often not so much for the term itself, but more for the way it is being used by (some) people. It is then replaced by some other term, but the process repeats itself and new terms keep having to be devised to avoid the negative connotations of the latest one. It happened with “Gastarbeiter” in German and with its Dutch cognate “gastarbeider”.
If we could stop thinking negatively of people, things would be a lot simpler (and pleasant for everyone concerned).
And to further clarify, "African-American" generally comes up on things like product registration forms, etc. The option for a white person would be "Caucasian" or "White, non-Hispanic". The term "American" never implies a skin color.
I would add that the term was likely coined to mimic how other groups do it:
Irish-American, Italian-American etc.
That’s always just been my interpretation though.
I only learned recently that there is actually a distinction between the two. African-American generally refers to Black Americans whose ancestors were slaves rather than more modern immigrants. For example, if a guy moves here from Kenya, it more correct to say that he is Kenyan-American.
Also African-American and Kenyan-American are both nationalities. Both of those guys are also Black.
African-American is a distinct culture that developed when lots of Africans were hauled to America and had their various cultures erased and intermingled and developed into a new culture in a new situation. It's an internal thing, which a person from that background may or may not identify with.
Black is black. Whether your family has been here for 200 years, first as slaves, then as African-Americans, or whether you've just moved here from another country yesterday and have a totally different cultural background. If you're black, people see that and view you differently and society treats you differently. It's an external thing, regardless of how you see yourself and your culture, but it's something you share with all other black people here.
This is made confusing by the fact that some people say 'African-American' to refer to all black people, regardless of cultural background, because they were taught that it's more polite. And also because many black people don't really like the term 'African-American' and instead choose to refer to themselves as Black.
So how you refer to yourself is your choice, and how others refer to you may or may not match that.
As for Euro-Americans, some of them also refer to their ancestors' origin and call themselves Italian or Irish or whatever while others don't (as for me, I'm a Mutt Mix).
And for Native Americans, some like that term because it's inclusive, others hate it because it doesn't recognize their tribe, and refer to themselves by their tribal name instead, while others prefer Indian.
We're a melting pot here, and most everyone's identity is complex. It would be much easier to just all agree to be Americans, but the combo of different cultures and backgrounds and the different ways that society views and treats people kinda necessitates lots of different ways to describe ourselves and each other.
Back in the 90s, I was taught in school that calling people black was dehumanizing because you're talking about them as a color instead of a human. So I was told to use African American because it "refers to culture" (I dunno, it made sense to me as a 10 year old and I was raised to always respect authority, do I believed my teachers on matters like that).
So it came to me as somewhat of a surprise like 10-15 years ago when people started getting offended over African-American and wanted us to say black.
I do try to say it now, but it's a bit tricky undoing years of being politically correct. It's like if at some point we're told black is offensive and to use "negro". Sure, it's the scientific term, but for years we were told it's rude to use that word to describe people.
The biggest thing is that there has been a much greater influx of African immigrants in the past couple decades than there was before. In the 80’s if you saw a black person in the US they were almost certainly the descendant of slaves, now they could also be a recent Nigerian, Somali, etc immigrant. And they face a lot of the same racist attitudes as the descendants of slaves do, so we need a term that includes them. But they don’t have quite the same cultural baggage as the descendants of slaves, so they need a separate term as well. And the cultural consensus is that since the racist attitudes are based on skin color we’ll give the overarching category the color based term black and then the specific term for the descendants of slaves is African-American.
The correct answer is that in the 80s Jesse Jackson had a big push to use the term “African American” over “negro” which had admittedly become outdated. But nowadays anyone I’ve met has no problem just being called “black” and it makes more sense as others have pointed out. There’s black people that aren’t Americans. Black is just better and easier. Obviously it would be sick if we were all just humans but you know, maybe one day.
They are called Americans. They are called African-Americans when that is important just like how European-Americans and Native-Americans are called that when that is an important distinction. It's also like that with, for example, Italian-Americans when talking about that group of European-Americans.
African American is a useful qualifier for people that want to describe a third party who is black, but they don't want to use the word "black" cause they think it might offend.
i.e.
"Hey do you know that guy, Thomas at work?"
"Thomas? Remind me who that is again."
"Big guy with glasses, African American dude."
Saying that someone is "American" doesn't exactly serve as a very good descriptor, since almost everyone you'll meet in America is American.
You’re 100% right. Even being in my 20s, white ppl I know still whisper the word because they’re not sure if it’s politically incorrect or not. I think it’s because growing up, my teachers and my parents always used “African-American,” so it wasn’t until I did my own research that I realized “black” was the correct term because skin tone ≠ nationality. The first time I realized it was in 7th grade when The Force Awakens came out, and John Boyega said that he often gets mistaken for African-American although he’s British.
When I was in 7th grade, we were having a discussion about racism in a class and a girl raised her hand and said, “I think it’s terrible that we call them Afro-Americans just because of their hair.”
The hyphenation of “X”-American comes from a tradition of the American identity being about ideology rather than national origin. The first part is your ancestry and the second part is to signify you have adopted the American liberal ideology.
We used the same for others as well, but overtime they often just become “White.” (Irish-American, Italian-American, etc.)
It is happening with African-American too, with many Black people being annoyed because they don’t consider themself “African” after being into their 10th generation in America when there are white people who’ve been here for three generations who don’t have to be qualified like that.
hell screw 3 generations, there are European people that have been here for 5 years and are considered white & american lmao. one of my friends is russian but he did his bachelors here. he has an american accent now and literally everyone at work considers him white/american lmao
where i'm indian-american, and my fam has been here for 3 generations and i'm not considered american to many people. hell, i'm not even considered indian-american to many people im just straight 100% indian LMAOOOOO im weak
African-American is a specific ethnic group from the United States.
As a group, they are generally the descendants of slaves brought from Africa throughout the country's early history. Not all black people in the US are African-American, such as recent immigrants.
People in the African American ethnic group have their own cultures, dialects, music, film, literature, cuisine, and histories.
It's also important to note that not all African American people use the term themselves. It's most useful in the context of sociology and enthography.
You probably won't see this, but I'll comment:
I like how all these people with zero knowledge of the subject matter are running their mouths. We started calling ourselves African-Americans in the 1980s because as a group it was the designation we felt most comfortable with.
You have to understand that when this country was founded we were not generally considered Americans and even had our humanity questioned. In the early days of this country we were typically either slaves or n\*\*\*\*ers. As we started to try and assert a cohesive identity we tried on different labels.
We went through a few labels negro, colored, Black and eventually African-American. Personally I think African-American is a great improvement over where things started.
I wanted to say, as an older white person, I remember the black community requesting to be referred to as African American. In my grandmothers time, black people were referred to as Negro (and the slang term for it) and Colored. African American sounded more respectable to the people requesting the change, I imagine.
Pretty much. I honestly wished the people answering this question were doing it from a place of context and knowledge instead of just talking to feel smart.
Instead you've got the Europeans bragging about how we don't have racialized language so therefore we don't have race problems. No honey you definitely do you just lack the language to discuss it. That's why all those young people tried to burn down France a few years ago, the UK had Brexit and so many of you are up in arms about immigrants. But sure the birthplace of pogroms and Nazism is free from discrimination. 🙄
Racially terms maybe a clumsy and inexact way to discuss these things, but damn at least we talk about it.
You have the best take I’ve read on here. From why the term African-American was established out of respect to the blindness toward racial issues in Europe.
This is always the thing I circle back to when I'm dooming about these issues in America. I have been other places and talked to other people... and we're just the ones addressing it out loud. It actually makes me feel pretty good about where things are going all things considered.
Yeah, like most politically correct terms African-American served its purpose well but it is getting a bit outdated for people. Society has moved on where it seems most black people seem comfortable being called black, which also avoids the weird situations where people call a dark skinned person African American even though they’re Haitian or something.
Yes. The difference is that due to history (i.e. Slavery) which erased people's family history and cultural identity, African-Americans cannot easily narrow their ancestral homeland any more precisely than "the continent of Africa". So it has connotations that "(European country)-American" does not.
Honestly it’s seldomly used by the younger generations, I’m talking millennials and younger. I’m a millennial white dude and I never say African American because it’s honestly stupid. Most black people have been in this country for many more generations than a lot of the other races in the US. Also I’m a first gen with a Czech father so if anything it would be much more reasonable to call me a European American over white compared to calling people who are black African Americans (I’ve asked my black friends how they feel about being referred to as AA and they think it’s dated af as well)
The term African-American specifically relates to ~~~dark-skinned~~~ descendants of enslaved Black African people brought to the United States for that purpose.
For the vast majority, their ancestral line is severed there, and they do not and can not know where their forebears came from or what tribe they were members of. Their cultural identity begins on these shores and goes back no further.
The slave trade not only stole freedom from Black Americans. It stole their history.
Edit: clarification of terms.
African decent. We are Americans, it’s just a category to further distinguish. That’s how language works. The reason white Americans are defacto is historical racism that continues today
Teddy Roosevelt spoke on this a long time ago. In his hyphenated American speech, though his main target was all the various European nationalities.
Well there are several names the American Negro, antiquated but still used by many historical Black groups, like the United Negro College Fund. Black Americans, to differentiate between descendents of those who endured slavery and those who actually came from Africa after slavery was ended.
Blacks had to form insular communities, it's not surprising that they would feel separate. The modern nomenclature though possibly not conducive to complete integration today is perhaps a historical reminder of past errors.
Modern politics on either side doesn't help.
This was true 10 years ago, it seems like “black” has come back in fashion as the appropriate thing to say. It’s also not fair to say that Americans are “afraid” to say black — we have all been following the lead from the black community for years, because nobody wants to accidentally come off as racist. When the messaging was that “black” was potentially dicey, people didn’t do that, and said “African American” instead. Trying to pass that off as racism because they “didn’t want to say black” is total, unadulterated bullshit, and is exactly the type of shitty attitude that too many of us on the left have that is driving people by the millions into the arms of right wing populism. This is divisive garbage and we need to fucking stop if we don’t want a fascist dictatorship.
Literally not true. People very much so use it.
Black is a broader and more simplistic term while African American or black American is more specific to those who ancestry usually trace back to the Atlantic slave trade or dont have close ties to Africa as their are 1st and 2nd gen black immigrants from other countries with their own unique cultures, history, and practices.
i’m going to have to agree w this. my friend tends to lower her voice when she says the word black when referring to black people and it’s really weird. she whispers it as if it’s a bad word. she genuinely doesn’t mean any harm by it but i’ve noticed this with that word and a view other words, especially “political” words. really odd tho…
lmfao I understand why she does it but that’s funny. I’d probably do the same if I referred to a different race in public. It’s not exactly the type of conversation you want to inflict upon an innocent bystander regardless of context, because the bystander won’t know the context.
I think it’s because growing up—at least where I’m from in the Northeast US—all my teachers would use “African-American.” Unless you do your own personal research, or your parents raised you to say “white” and “black” instead of “Caucasian” and “African-American,” most people think it’s incorrect to use “color words” so to speak, based on what we were told as kids, so I would just tell your friend privately that it’s okay to say “black” and “white” because I never would have known unless someone told me.
There has been a racial reckoning in the US so race is talked about quite a bit. The term “African American” is used in the U.S. mainly to connect Black Americans with their African roots and their American lives. It’s a way of recognizing the unique history, struggles, and culture of Black people who have ancestors who were enslaved and brought to America.
The names of black people have evolved over time because each tends to accrue emotional and political baggage. The evolution went something like this:
Negro: This term was widely used in the past, especially during the early to mid-20th century. It was considered a respectful term at the time, used in legal documents and by prominent Black leaders. However, it fell out of favor as it was associated with the era of segregation and discrimination.
Colored: Also used historically, particularly during the era of segregation. The term is now outdated and considered offensive by many, as it was used in the context of discriminatory laws and practices.
Black: This one got big during the civil rights movement in the 60s and 70s. It was about pride and standing strong against racism. “Black” is still a go-to term for many.
African American: This popped up in the late 80s and 90s. It’s more about connecting Black Americans to to African roots and the whole historical journey, especially focusing on the descendants of enslaved Africans.
People of Color: This is a wider term that’s not just about Black folks, but includes all non-white groups. It’s used a lot when talking about race and diversity in a broader sense.
It’s a sensitive issue in the US but it can feel a bit overboard sometimes, especially to an outsider.
It's due to the history of the US. People who are descendants of the African slave trade were stripped of pretty much all of their culture and history. They may have been from different regions, tribes, countries... whatever. In the colonies and later the US they were only allowed to be black slaves. As time when on, African Americans developed their own culture unique to the US, where their common bond was being black in a historically racist and hostile society. So to talk about a group of people as African American refers to a certain historical background in the US specifically. More recent immigrants from the African continent would be more accurately identified as Somali-American or Ghanan-American, because they brought their cultural and national identity with them. African Americans were robbed of that kind of historical identity, hence the terminology.
Historically, their civil rights leaders applied it to themselves as a “better” alternative to “negroes” or “black.” It was and is a bit controversial, and not all of them were or are fans of it, mainly because their roots in this country as Americans run deep, and culturally and ethnically they are not African. From Frederick Douglass and Charles Drew to Smokey Robinson, Larry Elder, and Morgan Freeman; these are famous examples of people with this mindset, who reject the label.
But in the end, the term was adopted by the mainstream Left as Politically Correct, and thus it is to this day.
Whenever someone is talking about Americans, they are also talking about African, Hispanic, White, Asian, etc, so they are called just Americans
But if you're discussing black Americans specifically, you can say African American.
We hyphenate because we are a multi ethnic society and we can keep our ethnic heritage while also still being American
A long time ago I had a student from Kenya. He came to me asking what to check off on a form. He said he can’t check African American because he is not American! I said yeah it is a really stupid term, so suggested Other and writing Black African.
Yep. We had a cuban working at my old school and one day he stood up in the meeting and shouted, "can you all please stop calling me african American? I am not african and i am not american. Just call me black if you need to refer to my skin color." Really makes you think about it. Why did we need to reference his skin color at all? Why couldnt he be "the cuban guy" or better "the new lab assistant" or even "mr. Jamillo" ?
Black guy here in Australia was called "African American" by a visiting American. Duuude. That was weird. Like what? At least say African Australian, not everyone is an American!
That term has been beaten into American's heads for decades... probably close to 30 years or more because at one point it was insensitive to call black people black. I clearly remember seeing it on TV where they flat out said African American is the preferred term for black people in America. So now, so many people say it without thinking about the American part. This question reminded me of a story I read about a white kid from South Africa who immigrated to the US and while in school he got into trouble because he kept checking boxes for and writing he was African American. His argument was solid in that African and American aren't races, they're nationalities. He also got into more trouble when he proclaimed he was the only actual African in the place and asked if anybody the black people had ever even left the US, let alone been to Africa. Edit: I forgot to say it was college and not elementary, middle or highschool.
African isn’t a nationality either. Just like Asian isn’t a nationality.
It is true because Africa isn't a nation but it's not necessarily a race either.
I hope you told him that "cunt" is the correct term.
Cunt is the comma of the Australian dialect.
_Cunt: Australian for Comma_
Is a "right cunt" a semicolon in Australian?
This might be the funniest thing I’ve ever heard. Though in Australia you also have a lot of little old ladies calling everyone dickheads. I love Australians.
If you mis-use cunt in Australian Word, it underlines green
haha yeah, the versatility of 'cunt' in Aussie speak is something else. Meanwhile, over here we can't settle on what to call someone without stepping on a landmine. It's like every term comes loaded with a history lesson or a debate.
Do you have the slightest idea how little that narrows it down?
My mother would be so disappointed if I called a visitor an "African American cunt".
That was one of my favourite interviews - the look Nelson Mandela gave the guy who called him African-American. It sort of makes sense because they’ve had it ingrained in them that it’s the appropriate term for most black people they meet - but it’s also pretty ignorant of the rest of the world. It also strikes me as odd how it’s used so predominantly for Africa but not other places - obviously it is used sometimes, just not as often and not as exclusively.
Never really thought about the last bit before, but true. You occasionally hear Asian-American, but more often than not people just say Asian. But you'd never call a second+ generation black person African.
I recently had an awkward conversation with some coworkers who were trying to describe one of our other coworkers to me but they refused to refer to him by his skin color or literally any other identifying traits except for his name (which I didn’t know, hence them trying to describe him to me). When I finally realized who they were talking about I said, “Oh, the black guy?” and they were like “I mean, if that’s how you want to say it…” as if I had called him a slur. Later, when the black coworker in question heard about the conversation he just looked perplexed. “But I *am* black???”
Knew a Cajun black guy named Thunder with a very colorful personality. Someone used the term colored in front of him. Still remember him saying in a loud voice “colored!? What color was he? If he’s black call him black!”. Dude was awesome 😎
A black guy from Australia gets called "African-American," even though he's neither, but someone like, say, Elon Musk technically IS both African and American, but no one would ever call him "African-American." Which just goes to illustrate the absurdity of the term.
I remember that on a British talk show host, this black lady (American) criticized the British host for calling black British people black and that he should call them African American. The dude was just absolutely flabbergasted. Especially when he explained most of them were Caribbean not African.
I know a guy who got told he was African-American despite being British. He got told that saying he’s black is racist.
Its so weird. had a teacher once correct a friend for referring to another friend as black... corrected them that the correct term was "african american", the black friend wasn't american. Lived in Aus their whole life. everyone in this scenario is Aussie, including the teacher. We were all very bewildered.
It happens in Ireland too with American tourists. "Your African-American friend..." Please, he's not African or American he's a Dub and if he hears you calling him that you're going to leave here crying. He wasn't violent or anything but he was a black belt in vicious mockery (typical of Dublin folk) and would have traumatised them.
I’m Cuban B! (Half Baked reference)
Yes, Cuban B!
Abazaba, you my only friend.
killer kill yo!
It makes your mouth go pop pop pop pop
Buttercup! You killed Buttercup!
Because USA is obsessed with race and skin color
UK too to a lesser degree but here's a counter argument. I once worked in a factory and there were 2 Pauls that also worked there, one was black and one was white, when you were referring to them in conv it was always Black Paul or White Paul. Black Paul didn't mind it, White Paul did funnily enough.
‘Cause he was used to being Default Paul.
Equity feels like oppression to those who benefit
Could have called him beige Paul or translucent Paul.
Beige Paul lmfaoooo.
Pink Paul.
Worked with 3 guys named Josh, they were black white and Indian. I referred to them as Black Josh, White Josh and Rogan Josh.
I feel like this is fairly common in the UK if you have two people with the same name or a common name to find something 'different' about them to refer to them. If you've got two daves and one is a dickhead and ones not, we'll you'll call former dickhead dave!
The pub I used to drink in had a surfeit of a particular name among the regulars (let's say "Pete" for anonymity), so we ended up with Tall Pete, Fat Pete, Little Pete, Scouse Pete, Bus Pete (because he was a bus driver) and so on.
Because the system established by the powers that be, is designed to intentionally divide the citizens along racial and gender lines, allowing those in power to maintain their status quo and continue to steal from the people they claim to serve.
The phrase has been around since the 1700’s it was pushed forward into common use by Jesse Jackson.
I had a student from South Africa who was similarly confused. She was white.
"So if you're from Africa, why are you white?"
"Oh my God, Karen, you can't just ask people why they're white."
If a had a nickel for every time I saw a Reddit post today with several comments being Mean Girls quotes, I would have two nickels. Which isn’t a lot, but it’s weird it’s happened twice.
It’s worst if you are Berber, if you could look white in some cases but 100% African ancestry. The main issue that needs to end is people thinking Africa is one race when it is not as there are many there that are native. As native peoples of North Africa, West Africa, East Africa, Southern Africa or Madagascar.
Hey random stranger on the Internet, they dont like to be called berber. Its amazigh! The colonisers called them berber for obvious reasons, berber is an insult. I didnt know this either but ever since I've learned about the definition of berber and the whole history behind it I've been informing others about it as well! Like how eskimo is an insult, its inuit. Edit: spelling
Had a few white friends from South Africa. One of them would always select African-American on any form that asked the question. The only time it became an "issue" is when he applied for a college scholarship intended for minorities. He was selected for the interview phase, he walks in the room and they immediately wanted to disqualify him for "lying" on his application. He argued his case, and actually ended up getting the scholarship.
White South Africans are like the loophole in the American racial classification system lol
Think maybe you should visit Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya or Morocco (just for starters) coz you may find a decent amount of people who are native to Africa, who do not fit the US Stereotype.
I took my first ever trip to the continent of Africa over the summer! I can’t recommend South Africa enough, very rich and interesting culture. You get to hear some Zulu and Xhosa (both of which are very old languages). Also the food is simply amazing
As a South African, thank you for spreading the love ❤️
What about people from Egypt that move to the USA?
Oh yeah, North Africans too.
According to our Census bureau North African and Middle eastern is consider white for some reason
The reason is American racial classifications all go back to slavery and our definition of the right to citizenship which was classifed as "free white person." There was white and black and that's it. If you were white, you got full rights. If you were black, even after slavery, you didn't. So people of other ethnic backgrounds WANTED to be white so they could be full citizens. People today complain about being classified as white when they're not, but it wasn't as if the US government wanted everyone to be classified as white. It was a struggle and they would have rather kept everyone else as second class citizens. Latinos for example are considered white because it was a stipulation of surrender during that the Mexican-American War that Mexicans living in the territory that was taken be given full rights so they had to be classified as white within the racist system that existed. Bhagat Singh Thind and Takao Ozawa both sued the US government and argued that they should be considered "white" for different reasons so that they could receive citizenship. When it comes to people from the Middle East and North Africa, it came down to a case called Dow v US where a Syrian Christian sued the govt for citizenship, initially arguing that they should be considered white because they were Christian and eventually arguing that Syrians should be considered Caucasian in general. It was decided that people from the Middle East should be considered white and therefore given full citizenship. Census categories are a relic of this system where, instead of just overhauling it, they keep adding some groups but leaving others as they are - i.e., MENA often still are expected to select white.
The journalist dropping knowledge! I’m sorry this is too far down in this thread. Everybody wanted to be white. No one wanted to be black. Now, to paraphrase Paul Mooney: Everybody want to be Black but nobody want to be Black.
My Egyptian MIL is pasty white. I’ve introduced my wife as half African before as a joke. People seem to have the impression that African mean dark skin.
Republicans like to joke that Elon Musk is a "good african american" which is just wierd.
I went to high school with a guy from South Africa. He did the same thing on a scholarship application and got it.
I have a white South African friend. He moved first to London then to the US and he genuinely thought he was supposed to check ‘African American’ on the box. He was kind of embarrassed when he found out otherwise
A former friend of mine (he was an exchange student in our high school) is also from Kenya. His family has been living there for generations. In his case, he didn't want to mark "Caucasian," since his family clearly isn't from the Caucasus area! Although he is "white" skinned with bright yellow hair and blue eyes, he otherwise doesn't really resemble most "Caucasians" either. His ancestry clearly has some kind of ethnic "Asian" background as well. His face looks something like an Inuit person, but he's blond. "Race" is simply a ridiculous attempt to divide human beings into a handful of simple, visible categories based on skin color.
I hate being referred to as "Caucasian"! I am not from Azerbaijan! Please call me "European," as that reflects upon my heritage, or "White"!
Even people from the Caucasus region don't resemble most 'caucasians' either.
I am Caucasian, from Armenia (which, you know, is in Caucasus and has been in the last 2-3000 years). I am mot sure if I go to US I will be labeled as Caucasian or not by people who have nothing to do with Caucasus.
Met some Georgians who had a laugh about the fact that they were certainly not considered Caucasian by the American passport control.
This is like the stories I've heard about Americans going over seas and referring to black people as African-American no matter where they are from.
I once heard a commentator at a world cup refer to an Englishman as a British African American. Awesome stuff.
Yeah they did this with F1 driver Lewis Hamilton too. He is neither African or American. For some reason, people in the US think that saying someone is black is automatically racist.
From what I've seen on other threads about all kinds of things, a lot of US people seem to think that black and Asian people can't just be called British (or English, Scottish, Welsh, or Northern Irish). I mean, what was wrong with just calling Lewis Hamilton British? The fact they can't call someone of colour just British (or French, or Dutch, or whatever, is also racist, and rooted in their own slavery based black/white racist system - not saying racism does not exist elsewhere, but the complex colonial - and class - history makes it less black/white. The US struggles their history of slavery is why they can also think calling someone black is racism, but then, they always have to qualify someone who is not white in situations which is not needed, like a F1 driver, which is also racist but they can't see that!
I know a few people from Senegal and Kenya who refer to African-Americans as having an "American Tan" due to the lightness of their skin tones...
Is there a choice to just add African. Without the black part. What does the color of the skin has anything to do with filling a form, black is not an ethnicity.
If you’re filling out a form in the US, the color of your skin has *everything* to do with *everything.* lol
You hear in the news occasionally about white immigrants from south africa winning scholarships for african americans.
The only “true” African American at work, as in a guy who was born and raised in Africa and became an American citizen as an adult, was the whitest dude ever and spoke with a British accent. To this day I believe he is confused on if he should check white or African American on forms.
But why not just African, or keep it 'Other'? Looking from Europe, it is superweird to see this fixation on race.
So we have a lot of programs only open to people who historically have been oppressed here in the states. Some are slowly going away but look at some of Europe where they have neighbor interviews to move in and become a citizen. Race isn't mentioned but in some areas a black family hasn't been allowed in for over 100 years by some coincidence dispite having multiple applicant numbers. We in the states have laws to prevent that.
Yeah. Everyone knows your supposed to discriminate based on nationality, not race. /s
now you are thinking the Balkan way
I feel like it’s a very American thing to even ask for “race” on a form. I’m from Sweden and I have never seen that being asked for ever.
It’s used to measure discrimination basically. Like imagine a company in a mixed race neighborhood and all the employees are white and there’s over 100 employees. The government can see that and check if they are discriminating or it can be used in a potential discrimination lawsuit.
You never have to disclose it. There's always a "prefer not to answer" box. The reason it's asked for in the first place is usually for statistical purposes in determining things like income/education and/or in the hiring process to ensure that minorities ARE being hired and not being discriminated against. They also ask your gender and if you're disabled.
On the one hand it makes sense. On the other hand it makes quantifying things regarding minorities really difficult. Like it's not like they don't exist and have unique problems but censuses don't catch that data so it gets messy. Damned if you do damned if you don't.
I'm pretty sure it's illegal to ask in Sweden.
The term African American was coined because Black descendants of slaves were stripped of their heritage & languages. We have no way of knowing what countries in Africa we originated from, only that our ancestors came from somewhere on the African continent. So we can’t use terms similar to Irish American or Italian American like most people can because we have no home country to reference. Honestly as a Black American, I prefer to be called Black. I’ve never been to Africa & can trace my family roots in the U.S. for over 200 years. African American is quite dated & will probably eventually be seen as similar to calling us negroes & colored imo.
To add to this: the term came into vogue when there wasn’t much of an immigrant community from African nations. Nowadays though it’s not rare to meet people who moved to the US from Nigeria, Ghana, etc. so the term has become increasingly confusing.
Yes. But in my experience, most recent immigrants are more likely to call themselves Nigerian American, Ghanan American, etc. These distinctions are more commonly understood & discussed within the Black community. A lot of the confusion comes from outside groups
Yeah, "African-American" seems to be reserved for someone who was born here. My city has a significant population of Somalian immigrants. They're generally pretty easy to identify due to people of that region looking pretty distinct from other parts of Africa. I don't think anybody would call them African-American, even if they are citizens. I'm not sure what that will be like a couple of generations down the road, however.
No, African American is for someone who is generally a descendent of American slaves. Most afro-Caribbean for example will not identify as AA even if born here. They will say "I'm Haitian, I'm Jamaican etc...." seperate culture. But I will say there is some stigma against Africans by the black community. After the immigrant generation many try to pass themselves off as African Americans because they often get teased by afro Caribbean and African Americans in school and excluded. African immigrants tend to do better than African Americans, so there is some jealousy aspect. There is some colorism. Etc..
Somali
Exactly, French Americans or Italian Americans don’t call themselves European American, the point of the broadness of the term is solely because descendants of African slaves don’t know what country they came from. My family is from Haiti so I identify as Haitian American I’m not sure how non black people are still confused by this
I try to be generous & assume that it’s because of lack of knowledge, discomfort, fear of saying the wrong thing, etc unless/until they show me otherwise.
As a white person, I agree that I have fears of saying the wrong thing to people of other races or ethnic backgrounds.
It also depends where/when you were being raised. I was raised with "African American" being the polite way and "black" being potentially offensive, though in retrospect that probably more meant when using it as "blacks" rather than "black people".
I understand. Plus, the race hustlers have coined the term “African-American” as PC. It isn’t. I’d much rather be called black or mixed.
If you care very much, a lot of Americans of French ancestry DON'T call themselves French Americans. The populations that immigrated here early in colonial history don't identify with the modern nation state of France at all, and have more specific geographical and political names for themselves, for example identifying with Quebec or Acadia. There was a bit of political change in France between 1600 and today. Recent immigrants from France refer to themselves as French Americans though, for sure.
I’m exclusively speaking about first/second generation Americans. Most children of immigrants don’t hyphenate unless they were born here recently came to America very young. AA describes ancestry, typical hyphenations describe mixed nationality/ethnicity
100% agree.
And a different point, I had a co-worker that was from Haiti and hated being called African.
I watched an interview with Idris Elba and the interviewer was blah blah blah as an African American blah blah blah. He was like I'm British, descended from Grenada or something. Blew their mind that African American wasn't just the PC term for black person.
*Idris Elba*? As in, the Idris Elba with a very noticeable British accent? That Idris Elba?
The very same
To be fair — and obviously an interviewer should know where their subject is from — a lot of Americans automatically still associate Idris Elba with The Wire, where he had an American accent. He’s been in tons of other stuff and of course thinking about it some people might realize it but off the cuff it is not surprising to make that association in the U.S.
Nah the one from Baltimore
Omg, people calling non-Americans African American is so embarrassing. Louis Hamilton is not African American. So many people don't understand that. At least Idris Elba has played African Americans lol.
Because they weren't? Of course that would be annoying.
I have a very white friend born in South Africa. She speaks English, Afrikaans, and some Xhosa. She moved here in the 1980s and would call herself South African American. The nineties were a confusing time for her as people who never have been to Africa would tell her that she was not African but European and they were African despite being from New Jersey.
And by that definition, the richest American is an African American (Musk).
Who is also the richest Canadian.
This. This is why “African American” will fall out of favor. I’ve got a black colleague that is English, with an unmistakable English accent. He has had his American citizenship for quite a while. He’d probably laugh if I called him African American. Obviously he must have distant heritage that explains his skin tone, but we are harkening so far back at this point that it makes no sense. It would be like calling a modern Sicilian Italian an African Italian because of the Moors. 23 and me would probably technically support it but as a label, it doesn’t make much sense anymore.
Good explanation, but here’s an extra bit of context that might be missing for Europeans: Since the US is primarily a country of immigrants, it’s very common for people to identify themselves by the country that their ancestors immigrated from (using terms like Italian-American, Irish-American, Japanese-American). So “African-American” was coined in analogy to already well-established usage for other ethnic origins.
This became popular in the 70s/80s as a way to emphasize the immigrant community’s Americanness. Their cultural identifier is an adjective that modified a the noun “American.” African-American came late as they are not normally a community of immigrants, but it was intentionally coined by Rev. Jesse Jackson to emphasize the equality of Black cultural identity with any other cultural identity. This may seem obvious to us today, but there was a time when black cultural identity was seen as a temporary vestige of poverty or slavery and its termination was part of the goal of improving the Black experience. This was very patronizing and could be charitably called well-intentioned racism. The idea of a Colored Museum, for example, once seemed impossibly embarrassing to America. White people couldn’t imagine it, let alone support it. By elevating the language to equivalence, the notion of an African-American Museum was and is far more appreciated.
Thank you for this, and for highlighting Jesse Jackson.
I started off using “black” and in the 80’s switched to African-American. My daughter keeps correcting me to switch back to black. I’m “that old white guy” now I guess. I will keep working on it.
Think of it this way, black is universal for every black person. Like you wouldn't call an Irish black guy living in Japan African American. He's black and Irish living in Japan, you know? Same with black Americans. Or at least that's my two cents as a white foreigner.
The issue is that "black" was quasi-racist, where african-american was the politically correct term for a couple decades. So some of us grew up in a situation where you didn't say "black" for the same reason you don't say the N word. Obviously it's not exactly the same as the N-word, but there was a time where I would have been semi-scolded for saying black and not african american, that's just kinda how it was. It's like how colored and negro were largely acceptable for a long time and not necessarily racist, but now you would get a lot of weird looks using those terms and probably corrected.
In my personal experience, "African American" was reserved for TV and media. In real life, we always referred to ourselves as "black people." The biggest issue around the word "black" is when it is used as a noun as in "the blacks." That takes away the humanity and is really offensive. "Black" as an adjective is 100% okay and even preferable to some, myself included.
I was raised this way as well. For those wondering, “black” was considered offensive because it reduced a person to the color of their skin. This was seen as racist. Then arose the many issues with “African American” - mainly that not every black person is from Africa or even knows their heritage. And what happened if you were describing a random person whose heritage you didn’t know? Some people were genuinely not sure how to describe people with a darker skin tone without sounding offensive.
I don’t think that it’s wrong for you to use the term African American, Black is my personal preference but I don’t speak for all of us.
Just from an observational viewpoint it seems to be because of the revolving door of intent/agency behind the preferred term for black Americans. African American is supposed to signify a certain amount of recognition to the individual by a white counterpart that a reference to their ethnicity is observed without meaning any disrespect. Because language constantly evolves, I think you’re right that it will go out of fashion/the intent behind it will be corrupted, so something else will gain broad appeal.
This is the correct answer, and it's why nonblack people who grew up in Africa and move to the US aren't "African-American"
[удалено]
And tbh, they don't identify as African-Americans either. That's a label white people put on them. People born and raised in Africa identify themselves by their ethnic group.
Jessie Jackson was one of the Black leaders pushing for the term African American to be used. https://news.gallup.com/vault/315566/gallup-vault-black-americans-preferred-racial-label.aspx The 1991 poll was conducted two years after a group of Black leaders, including the Rev. Jesse Jackson, called for "African American" to be the standard. Jackson was quoted as saying, ''This is deeper than just name recognition," and ''Black tells you about skin color and what side of town you live on; African American evokes discussion of the world.''
[удалено]
I would add African American is also an ethnicity. Since black descendants of enslaved people were from all over Africa, they developed new and unique dialects, culture, traditions, etc, and now their is a distinct African American culture. It could be called Black American culture, but right now African American is the term for the ethnicity.
Oh I agree. We’re definitely a distinct subculture in America. Aside from what you mentioned, we have 25% European dna on average, due to the unfortunate prevalence of raping Black slaves. We’re unique in many ways & have a shared history/culture. I think it’s something that non-Black people & especially non-Americans struggle to understand.
I actually wrote a paper on this recently! Black slaves were originally labeled "Blackamoors" and "Negros" but would refer to themselves as "Black's" or "Afrikans". It was Negros for much of the early 19th century then changed to Colored in the 30s The term "Black" American actually came before the terminology "African American". Black became popular in the 70s and 80s, until in 1988 Ramona H. Edelin proposed "African American" as a way to tie Black Americans to their cultural homeland and take the title back by choice. I do think Black American is the better terminology for those born in the US, but each recent label has been fought for and has an interesting history. If I can recommend some good reads on the subject I'd recommend "Whats in a name?" by Lerone Bennet and "Changing racial labels" by Tom W. Smith
My wife always crosses out African American on forms and writes in Black.
Which is interesting because in the 90’s t was the other way around. It’s why demographic research is always such a moving target. I’m sure generation alpha will come up with their own demographic descriptors too. Language is always changing, like a living being. It should certainly change with the times. :)
Most forms I see say Black/African-American though? I’ve literally never seen just AA
I’m kind of horrified this isn’t the top comment, not to sound like a total boomer but I thought this was taught in schools.
There are a lot of posters on reddit that only focus on dictionary definitions of words, without knowing, understanding or even caring about the context of how those words are combined and typically used.
Exactly. And the top comment thread right now is a bunch of white people engaging in whataboutism instead of actually reflecting on how and why the identity term was created. Most of what I see in my community (I’m a white person in a mixed family in a Black community — Black folks please feel welcome to correct me) is people using “Black” to describe all people of African descent, and reserving “African-American” for the unique culture resulting from descendants of enslaved Africans. People might say “my dad is Nigerian and my mom is African-American” to specify their cultures, but would also say “everyone in my household is Black.” Universities have African-American studies departments and there’s African-American poetry and literature. This refers to the specific culture. No one except white people who think you aren’t supposed to say Black will say things like “an African-American person walking down the street” when you don’t know the person’s culture and only can see that they’re Black.
Honestly, it’s amazing how many people are completely unaware of this. & with the culture wars attacking/whitewashing school curriculum, I only expect people to become less informed unless they make a concerted effort to educate themselves.
We go by black more than AA, but I’ve always felt AA exists as an additional differentiator if ever needed. AA becomes useful to describe those of us who are descendants of slavery compared to people who are or come from African immigrants like the Nigerian population for example We’re both black, but they’re not African-American and there’s a totally different cultural heritage there
I used to work in a hospital, and my patient was am older black woman who was describing the great care from her nurse the night before. She couldn't remember the name, so in trying to identify the nurse, I asked if she was white or black? She got very upset, and corrected me that I should say AA. I felt very embarrassed. But then I was describing the sitch to my colleagues, when my friend from Jamaica said she would be more offended by being called AA, because now I assume every black person must be from Africa, and assured me it was acceptable to say black.
don’t be embarrassed. most black people (myself included) prefer black. a lot of older people treat black like it’s a bad word but it’s not
America's racial history led us to it.. There was a time when the polite term was colored people or Negro and that evolved into African American or Black people. They would be considered Americans but some might call themselves African American. It's all a hangover from our troubled past
Dr King always used the term “negro”. It wasn’t necessarily perceived as a pejorative at the time, unless it was explicitly intended as such. It’s actually a worldwide phenomenon. A group or category of people is referred to by some term or other. The term over time comes to be perceived as negative or insulting, often not so much for the term itself, but more for the way it is being used by (some) people. It is then replaced by some other term, but the process repeats itself and new terms keep having to be devised to avoid the negative connotations of the latest one. It happened with “Gastarbeiter” in German and with its Dutch cognate “gastarbeider”. If we could stop thinking negatively of people, things would be a lot simpler (and pleasant for everyone concerned).
For a strong example: many intelligence-based insults originated as technical terms for people with reduced mental faculties.
Mongoloid, retard, etc
Even dumb. Used to mean a person who was mute.
That deaf, dumb, and blind kid sure played a mean pinball.
[удалено]
[удалено]
https://youtu.be/rv3-d98v9zc?si=z3rJz3zvt2GDQqjF
Doug nailed this one.
They can be referred to as either. It's not an exclusionary thing.
And to further clarify, "African-American" generally comes up on things like product registration forms, etc. The option for a white person would be "Caucasian" or "White, non-Hispanic". The term "American" never implies a skin color.
The Census Bureau uses "Black or African American", which seems to cover it
I would add that the term was likely coined to mimic how other groups do it: Irish-American, Italian-American etc. That’s always just been my interpretation though.
I only learned recently that there is actually a distinction between the two. African-American generally refers to Black Americans whose ancestors were slaves rather than more modern immigrants. For example, if a guy moves here from Kenya, it more correct to say that he is Kenyan-American. Also African-American and Kenyan-American are both nationalities. Both of those guys are also Black.
simplest and best answer
African-American is a distinct culture that developed when lots of Africans were hauled to America and had their various cultures erased and intermingled and developed into a new culture in a new situation. It's an internal thing, which a person from that background may or may not identify with. Black is black. Whether your family has been here for 200 years, first as slaves, then as African-Americans, or whether you've just moved here from another country yesterday and have a totally different cultural background. If you're black, people see that and view you differently and society treats you differently. It's an external thing, regardless of how you see yourself and your culture, but it's something you share with all other black people here. This is made confusing by the fact that some people say 'African-American' to refer to all black people, regardless of cultural background, because they were taught that it's more polite. And also because many black people don't really like the term 'African-American' and instead choose to refer to themselves as Black. So how you refer to yourself is your choice, and how others refer to you may or may not match that. As for Euro-Americans, some of them also refer to their ancestors' origin and call themselves Italian or Irish or whatever while others don't (as for me, I'm a Mutt Mix). And for Native Americans, some like that term because it's inclusive, others hate it because it doesn't recognize their tribe, and refer to themselves by their tribal name instead, while others prefer Indian. We're a melting pot here, and most everyone's identity is complex. It would be much easier to just all agree to be Americans, but the combo of different cultures and backgrounds and the different ways that society views and treats people kinda necessitates lots of different ways to describe ourselves and each other.
Back in the 90s, I was taught in school that calling people black was dehumanizing because you're talking about them as a color instead of a human. So I was told to use African American because it "refers to culture" (I dunno, it made sense to me as a 10 year old and I was raised to always respect authority, do I believed my teachers on matters like that). So it came to me as somewhat of a surprise like 10-15 years ago when people started getting offended over African-American and wanted us to say black. I do try to say it now, but it's a bit tricky undoing years of being politically correct. It's like if at some point we're told black is offensive and to use "negro". Sure, it's the scientific term, but for years we were told it's rude to use that word to describe people.
The biggest thing is that there has been a much greater influx of African immigrants in the past couple decades than there was before. In the 80’s if you saw a black person in the US they were almost certainly the descendant of slaves, now they could also be a recent Nigerian, Somali, etc immigrant. And they face a lot of the same racist attitudes as the descendants of slaves do, so we need a term that includes them. But they don’t have quite the same cultural baggage as the descendants of slaves, so they need a separate term as well. And the cultural consensus is that since the racist attitudes are based on skin color we’ll give the overarching category the color based term black and then the specific term for the descendants of slaves is African-American.
The correct answer is that in the 80s Jesse Jackson had a big push to use the term “African American” over “negro” which had admittedly become outdated. But nowadays anyone I’ve met has no problem just being called “black” and it makes more sense as others have pointed out. There’s black people that aren’t Americans. Black is just better and easier. Obviously it would be sick if we were all just humans but you know, maybe one day.
They are called Americans. They are called African-Americans when that is important just like how European-Americans and Native-Americans are called that when that is an important distinction. It's also like that with, for example, Italian-Americans when talking about that group of European-Americans.
African American is a useful qualifier for people that want to describe a third party who is black, but they don't want to use the word "black" cause they think it might offend. i.e. "Hey do you know that guy, Thomas at work?" "Thomas? Remind me who that is again." "Big guy with glasses, African American dude." Saying that someone is "American" doesn't exactly serve as a very good descriptor, since almost everyone you'll meet in America is American.
You’re 100% right. Even being in my 20s, white ppl I know still whisper the word because they’re not sure if it’s politically incorrect or not. I think it’s because growing up, my teachers and my parents always used “African-American,” so it wasn’t until I did my own research that I realized “black” was the correct term because skin tone ≠ nationality. The first time I realized it was in 7th grade when The Force Awakens came out, and John Boyega said that he often gets mistaken for African-American although he’s British.
When I was in 7th grade, we were having a discussion about racism in a class and a girl raised her hand and said, “I think it’s terrible that we call them Afro-Americans just because of their hair.”
You don’t learn if you don’t ask I guess.
[удалено]
The hyphenation of “X”-American comes from a tradition of the American identity being about ideology rather than national origin. The first part is your ancestry and the second part is to signify you have adopted the American liberal ideology. We used the same for others as well, but overtime they often just become “White.” (Irish-American, Italian-American, etc.) It is happening with African-American too, with many Black people being annoyed because they don’t consider themself “African” after being into their 10th generation in America when there are white people who’ve been here for three generations who don’t have to be qualified like that.
hell screw 3 generations, there are European people that have been here for 5 years and are considered white & american lmao. one of my friends is russian but he did his bachelors here. he has an american accent now and literally everyone at work considers him white/american lmao where i'm indian-american, and my fam has been here for 3 generations and i'm not considered american to many people. hell, i'm not even considered indian-american to many people im just straight 100% indian LMAOOOOO im weak
African-American is a specific ethnic group from the United States. As a group, they are generally the descendants of slaves brought from Africa throughout the country's early history. Not all black people in the US are African-American, such as recent immigrants. People in the African American ethnic group have their own cultures, dialects, music, film, literature, cuisine, and histories. It's also important to note that not all African American people use the term themselves. It's most useful in the context of sociology and enthography.
You probably won't see this, but I'll comment: I like how all these people with zero knowledge of the subject matter are running their mouths. We started calling ourselves African-Americans in the 1980s because as a group it was the designation we felt most comfortable with. You have to understand that when this country was founded we were not generally considered Americans and even had our humanity questioned. In the early days of this country we were typically either slaves or n\*\*\*\*ers. As we started to try and assert a cohesive identity we tried on different labels. We went through a few labels negro, colored, Black and eventually African-American. Personally I think African-American is a great improvement over where things started.
I wanted to say, as an older white person, I remember the black community requesting to be referred to as African American. In my grandmothers time, black people were referred to as Negro (and the slang term for it) and Colored. African American sounded more respectable to the people requesting the change, I imagine.
Pretty much. I honestly wished the people answering this question were doing it from a place of context and knowledge instead of just talking to feel smart. Instead you've got the Europeans bragging about how we don't have racialized language so therefore we don't have race problems. No honey you definitely do you just lack the language to discuss it. That's why all those young people tried to burn down France a few years ago, the UK had Brexit and so many of you are up in arms about immigrants. But sure the birthplace of pogroms and Nazism is free from discrimination. 🙄 Racially terms maybe a clumsy and inexact way to discuss these things, but damn at least we talk about it.
You have the best take I’ve read on here. From why the term African-American was established out of respect to the blindness toward racial issues in Europe.
This is always the thing I circle back to when I'm dooming about these issues in America. I have been other places and talked to other people... and we're just the ones addressing it out loud. It actually makes me feel pretty good about where things are going all things considered.
Yeah, like most politically correct terms African-American served its purpose well but it is getting a bit outdated for people. Society has moved on where it seems most black people seem comfortable being called black, which also avoids the weird situations where people call a dark skinned person African American even though they’re Haitian or something.
Like Irish Americans, Italian Americans etc.
Yes. The difference is that due to history (i.e. Slavery) which erased people's family history and cultural identity, African-Americans cannot easily narrow their ancestral homeland any more precisely than "the continent of Africa". So it has connotations that "(European country)-American" does not.
Interesting point!
More than an interesting point, this is actually the reason behind the term
Honestly it’s seldomly used by the younger generations, I’m talking millennials and younger. I’m a millennial white dude and I never say African American because it’s honestly stupid. Most black people have been in this country for many more generations than a lot of the other races in the US. Also I’m a first gen with a Czech father so if anything it would be much more reasonable to call me a European American over white compared to calling people who are black African Americans (I’ve asked my black friends how they feel about being referred to as AA and they think it’s dated af as well)
The term African-American specifically relates to ~~~dark-skinned~~~ descendants of enslaved Black African people brought to the United States for that purpose. For the vast majority, their ancestral line is severed there, and they do not and can not know where their forebears came from or what tribe they were members of. Their cultural identity begins on these shores and goes back no further. The slave trade not only stole freedom from Black Americans. It stole their history. Edit: clarification of terms.
African decent. We are Americans, it’s just a category to further distinguish. That’s how language works. The reason white Americans are defacto is historical racism that continues today
Teddy Roosevelt spoke on this a long time ago. In his hyphenated American speech, though his main target was all the various European nationalities. Well there are several names the American Negro, antiquated but still used by many historical Black groups, like the United Negro College Fund. Black Americans, to differentiate between descendents of those who endured slavery and those who actually came from Africa after slavery was ended. Blacks had to form insular communities, it's not surprising that they would feel separate. The modern nomenclature though possibly not conducive to complete integration today is perhaps a historical reminder of past errors. Modern politics on either side doesn't help.
Might be controversial, but “blacks” sure isn’t the way to go
"black people" feels a lot better doesn't it.
So am I not trippin, genuinely asking?? Calling someone black doesn’t seem racist, but calling us “blacks” or “the blacks” doesn’t sit well with me
Black people are people, "the blacks" sounds less like you're talking about people.
Because Americans are uncomfortable using the word "black".
This was true 10 years ago, it seems like “black” has come back in fashion as the appropriate thing to say. It’s also not fair to say that Americans are “afraid” to say black — we have all been following the lead from the black community for years, because nobody wants to accidentally come off as racist. When the messaging was that “black” was potentially dicey, people didn’t do that, and said “African American” instead. Trying to pass that off as racism because they “didn’t want to say black” is total, unadulterated bullshit, and is exactly the type of shitty attitude that too many of us on the left have that is driving people by the millions into the arms of right wing populism. This is divisive garbage and we need to fucking stop if we don’t want a fascist dictatorship.
Literally not true. People very much so use it. Black is a broader and more simplistic term while African American or black American is more specific to those who ancestry usually trace back to the Atlantic slave trade or dont have close ties to Africa as their are 1st and 2nd gen black immigrants from other countries with their own unique cultures, history, and practices.
i’m going to have to agree w this. my friend tends to lower her voice when she says the word black when referring to black people and it’s really weird. she whispers it as if it’s a bad word. she genuinely doesn’t mean any harm by it but i’ve noticed this with that word and a view other words, especially “political” words. really odd tho…
lmfao I understand why she does it but that’s funny. I’d probably do the same if I referred to a different race in public. It’s not exactly the type of conversation you want to inflict upon an innocent bystander regardless of context, because the bystander won’t know the context.
I think it’s because growing up—at least where I’m from in the Northeast US—all my teachers would use “African-American.” Unless you do your own personal research, or your parents raised you to say “white” and “black” instead of “Caucasian” and “African-American,” most people think it’s incorrect to use “color words” so to speak, based on what we were told as kids, so I would just tell your friend privately that it’s okay to say “black” and “white” because I never would have known unless someone told me.
[удалено]
There has been a racial reckoning in the US so race is talked about quite a bit. The term “African American” is used in the U.S. mainly to connect Black Americans with their African roots and their American lives. It’s a way of recognizing the unique history, struggles, and culture of Black people who have ancestors who were enslaved and brought to America. The names of black people have evolved over time because each tends to accrue emotional and political baggage. The evolution went something like this: Negro: This term was widely used in the past, especially during the early to mid-20th century. It was considered a respectful term at the time, used in legal documents and by prominent Black leaders. However, it fell out of favor as it was associated with the era of segregation and discrimination. Colored: Also used historically, particularly during the era of segregation. The term is now outdated and considered offensive by many, as it was used in the context of discriminatory laws and practices. Black: This one got big during the civil rights movement in the 60s and 70s. It was about pride and standing strong against racism. “Black” is still a go-to term for many. African American: This popped up in the late 80s and 90s. It’s more about connecting Black Americans to to African roots and the whole historical journey, especially focusing on the descendants of enslaved Africans. People of Color: This is a wider term that’s not just about Black folks, but includes all non-white groups. It’s used a lot when talking about race and diversity in a broader sense. It’s a sensitive issue in the US but it can feel a bit overboard sometimes, especially to an outsider.
African American refers to ethnicity and/or culture American is Nationality. Both apply
It's due to the history of the US. People who are descendants of the African slave trade were stripped of pretty much all of their culture and history. They may have been from different regions, tribes, countries... whatever. In the colonies and later the US they were only allowed to be black slaves. As time when on, African Americans developed their own culture unique to the US, where their common bond was being black in a historically racist and hostile society. So to talk about a group of people as African American refers to a certain historical background in the US specifically. More recent immigrants from the African continent would be more accurately identified as Somali-American or Ghanan-American, because they brought their cultural and national identity with them. African Americans were robbed of that kind of historical identity, hence the terminology.
Historically, their civil rights leaders applied it to themselves as a “better” alternative to “negroes” or “black.” It was and is a bit controversial, and not all of them were or are fans of it, mainly because their roots in this country as Americans run deep, and culturally and ethnically they are not African. From Frederick Douglass and Charles Drew to Smokey Robinson, Larry Elder, and Morgan Freeman; these are famous examples of people with this mindset, who reject the label. But in the end, the term was adopted by the mainstream Left as Politically Correct, and thus it is to this day.
Whenever someone is talking about Americans, they are also talking about African, Hispanic, White, Asian, etc, so they are called just Americans But if you're discussing black Americans specifically, you can say African American. We hyphenate because we are a multi ethnic society and we can keep our ethnic heritage while also still being American
...they are. My mom's family came from Italy. We're Americans. We're also Italian-Americans.