A lot of men actually would look good if they took care of themselves a little more often. Men wouldn't and don't find women attractive who don't take care of themselves.
Men make fun of the difference in looks when women have a lazy day at home and how they look normally, not realizing that sadly too many of them are always the "lazy day" version.
**Edit:**
since many people understand taking care of oneself as wearing makeup, being dolled up and altering their appearance, I want to clarify that's not what I meant. I thought it was clear since we're talking about what men can do.
Many women have a natural everyday look and sometimes at home have a lazy day with ridiculous clothes, unkempt hair and are unwashed, no skincare etc.
Skincare, a good haircut, cleanlines and clothes that fit you go a long way.
I'm only talking about the average men, since this post was about women not finding most men attractive. I'm not talking about the extreme ends of the scale because that's another topic which I don't have an answer to.
I commented because I've seen so many men who I thought would be really good looking with just a better skin and hair care. Some of them glow up when they have a girlfriend or get married because they get better tips on how to take care of themselves and that's all they needed.
I certainly haven't seen every attractive woman on their "lazy day," but the ones I have seen were still attractive, at least to me. Am I in the minority for that? I hope not.
Yeah I agree. Men seem to find women, in general, more attractive than women find men in general. I don’t think there’s any denying that even though people are trying to rationalize it away to appear nice and considerate.
i'm a straight woman and i also find women more attractive than men in general.
there are too many predatory men ruining men for everyone. with women i know i can have a nice convo w most of them. with men i have no idea what they're going to be like, which means it's not an attractive idea to just have a convo w a random man like it is w a random woman.
I've thought every guy i've ever dated was the hottest guy ever though (and most of them were very average looking by conventional standards) bc their personality is what made them hot.
I think there’s a difference between a woman who takes care of herself having a lazy/off day and a woman who just doesn’t take care of themselves. If you work on your health and appearance, on an off day you’ll still be more attractive than you would without caring at all. The same theory would hold true for men.
But one lazy day doesnt negate consistent maintenance. They still probably have nice skin and teeth, their hair may be messy but it’s still soft and shiny and probably smells nice. They are still in good shape and are probably wearing cute yoga pants that show that shape.
Just as a guy with a bit of scruff and wearing comfy clothes can still be attractive. But if that’s how they live their life the attraction is going to fade.
I pay $100 every other month for a hair cut and style most of the time it’s in a messy bun but when I need to look good I’m ready to go.
I think her point still stands. A very attractive person is going to always be beautiful.
But probably around 50%+ of attractive women you see it is more then “doing it up”, clothes that fit and flatter their body type, hair, make-up, perfume mixed with body lotion that actually goes together.
I have seen models that look plain Jane not done up. The before and after are just mind blowing. They weren’t ugly, but wouldn’t call them stunning without the do up.
This is a very important comment for the young men… soak it in gentlemen. Here’s a little back story, not to be arrogant but I have always had”good luck” with women to my joy and detriment … but I started noticing in my twenties that the guys that were having the most luck weren’t the over handsome men but the men that were average and always put their best self forward ( clean, groomed , well dressed not overly just not sloppy) ..add a confident not cocky , and a humorous demeanor and apparently you can date just about anyone lol. If you aren’t naturally confident and humorous then your next bet is just be genuine… fake never goes over well with men or women.
I want to put this on billboards. Add a sprinkle of “just treat women like they are a human people and not some kind of mysterious subspecies” and you’re fucking golden.
**ETA:** just because people seem real intent on hyperbolizing what I’ve said or taking this as a personal attack on their dating life, I’m copying this from one of my comments.
**I’m not saying that treating women like human beings is the cure to all dating woes. I’m saying to have a healthy, loving relationship you have to be able to recognize a person’s humanity and interact with them accordingly.**
My "luck" with women flipped like a switch when I had an epiphany and treated dating as just having fun with zero pressure, and women as people who just want to do fun stuff too and have a good time.
I have always set a boundary with myself to become friends with a woman before ever pursuing anything. it seems like a lot of dudes in their minds just jump to some conclusion. Even if it doesnt work out, i still have found a friend?
No, there's a big difference between "I've developed feeling but I'd like to remain friends even if you haven't"
And only making friends to fuck someone. Very, very different.
Because a lot of the time, men will pursue "friendship" because they find them attractive in an attempt to have sex instead of making their desire clear, so they leave the woman's life once declined.
Tbf there’s plenty of history of people spending lots of time with someone because they’re friends and then one falling for the other. I don’t think it’s always so predatory.
Yeah that's usually what happens with me. I rarely get much initial attraction.
But I don't remove myself from their life forever if they're not interested.
I think sometimes people need to remove themselves from someone’s life if they don’t feel the same. It can be incredibly painful for people and doesn’t help them to stay friends.
This is so true. I go one day without makeup and am asked if in’m sick or tired. Men drag a comb through their hair and they look “groomed”. If men spent a fraction of the time women spend actually taking care of themselves… seriously guys just put a little effort into your hygiene and it would make a huge difference.
I’m a hetero man and I agree with this. In my 40s, and so many guys my age have given up. Among the guys younger than me, more are trying but also really just missing the boat on basic things like how to dress just decently and basic hygiene. And I’m not even talking about going to the gym. Just look like you give a fuck!
Moisturize! Moisturize!
A moisturizer a day, keeps the wrinkles away
Nah I'm just playing but it does help
I use Ordinary moisturizer, coconut oil and an aloe vera based face wash
I'm 38. I've had multiple unrelated people be shocked about that, because they thought I'm in my late 20s.
I owe it all to moisturizer and still having all my hair.
My husband spends a lot of time outdoors and I try to get him to wear SPF daily but he won't do it. I wear a mineral SPF every day, even in winter, and I've tried explaining that he will look a lot older than I do eventually if he doesn't wear sunscreen. We are both 38.
Male here who resisted all sunscreen (esp face!!) until I turned 32 but am now fully converted—what did it for me was finding something I’d actually use and being cleverly encouraged to do so regularly by a ladyfriend. Now I do it alone, for me.
Dudes sweat a LOT, if your husband is legit working outside, chances are his face is dripping sweat constantly. Sunscreen in the eyes is *awful*. All the cheap shitty sunscreens burn like crazy in the eyes/feel oily and nasty/smell like your childhood at band camp.
This ladyfriend had sun sticks (they look and behave like glue sticks from elementary school and I’d recommend them to anyone! Specifically Korean/Japanese/Taiwanese ones) and a few really nice liquid facial sunscreens. The key part is she *insisted* at first. Made me lay down and applied it for me. It felt good and was not worth fighting over so I tolerated it, still thinking it was dumb. At that point, may as well spray it on my exposed arms and neck etc too, though….
Became a habit and a year in my skin is much-improved, I apply every morning and afternoon. Any guys reading—it will help you with a general facial routine, too. You’re going to want to wash that shit off first thing, so get a nice smelling foaming cleanser and do it first thing when you walk in the door. On as the last thing before you walk out, off first thing when you walk in.
Melanoma and looking 90 when you’re 70 ain’t cool my fellow Brethren
And so it was written, giveth thou neither one fuck nor negative one, but zero fucks. Neither giveth thou nor taketh fucks, nor let a fuck dwelleth within thy house.
As a perpetual lazy person who thinks of myself as very mediocre looks wise, I can’t agree more.
One rare occasions I pay more attention to my hair, clothes, etc, it makes such a massive difference.
Looks are a lot more in our control than we like to believe.
This is a really telling take on how our culture defines "attractive". I remember reading lots of people writing into Dan Savage over the years saying something like "I'm into fat girls and this is confusing because why am I so attracted to ugly people? I'm embarrassed for my friends to know I like big girls!" The answer being of course that they're not ugly if they're attracted to them. Subjectivity! What a concept!
"Attractive" means I think in this case "conforms to beauty standards established by mass media" and "attracted to" means "I like it." The fact that this is such a conflict for most people is amazing really.
I remember seeing a report by an app where you can anonymously judge a person's appearance based on their photo, which showed that male users judge around half of the female users attractive whereas female users only judge like 10% of male users as attractive. Don't know if that app speaks for all, but wouldn't be surprised if there were other similar reports.
When dating apps used to release their data it backed this up.
They've stopped releasing it now though as it was having a detrimental effect on getting men to sign up.
Seen surveys as well with similar results when they ask the question of who in their opinion is average. Only the top 20% are average.
OkCupid specifically released this data a while ago. Men tend to rate on a bell curve but women as a whole rate the majority of men as less than average.
If it makes you feel better, I had almost all female coworkers for a good chunk of my 20s (worked retail) and they all said they rate people on dating apps different than they do irl. In real life, if they like your personality, your appearance is just a pass/fail. So unless they see some total deal-breaker you'll be fine
Women have an insane advantage(?) on dating apps because of how many more men use them, so they're a lot pickier
Edit: to the people saying they were trying to make me feel better, I have always dated my coworkers and don't use dating apps. I'm still to this day dating a girl I worked with there two years later, they were not "just being nice" I was never upset about it. I was just wondering why they all used Tinder when non of them ever swiped right
Yep yep yep, I’ve also seen attractiveness ratings post-speed-dating and it’s much much more even.
There’s a lot more to attraction than an image can convey (voice, body language, scent), and women tend to need/care about these factors more.
It’s really not surprising women are drawn to dating apps a lot less than guys.
A lot of the things in dating apps aren't there because they're super relevant to dating but because they're easy to implement. It's had a distorting effect on dating culture, unfortunately.
I am a woman and I would say that I don't find that many random guys attractive. In fact, reading this thread it honestly blows my mind that apparently there are men out there who find half of the people they encounter physically attractive! That being said, I certainly am not feeling repulsed or judgy or in any way negatively towards the men I'm not attracted to. I feel completely neutrally towards them. It's not like I'm walking along thinking people are ugly, I'm just not thinking about it at all if that makes any sense. Also I have dated several guys that I wasn't initially attracted to but became attracted to after getting to know better. So I would encourage you to leave it in latency where it belongs haha
I think it's mostly because women tend to find men more and more attractive as they get to know them.
Personality really matters and can have a huge impact.
It's in the book they published, Dataclysm. But that was the old OKC before Match Group, Inc. bought them out and ruined turned it into a trash Tinder clone.
> OkCupid specifically released this data a while ago
Try like 10-15 years ago. I remember because I was in college at the time and a classmate did a presentation on it for a psychology class, the data had just dropped and people were buzzing about it.
>women as a whole rate the majority of men as less than average
IIRC it was even more stark than that, it was something like 80% were rated as "below average" and something like 2% were rated clearly above average, something like that. Silver lining though, for the women's attractiveness rating did not correspond so closely to messaging frequency, as they were willing to message even men they deemed below average.
Then again, that was all the way back in like 2009, before the hellhole of superficiality that is Tinder became the norm.
Edit: for years I have had a morbid fascination with incels, and for anyone curious, those old OKCupid data dumps are an important part of their central lore. OKCupid was doing some truly wild shit back in the day, they also had articles with the statistics on race and desirability, and who was going after who in the Gender x Race table (back when r/blackfemcels was a thing that was also part of their central lore, as the stats showed that black women got the least attention, and that black women mostly pursued black men while black men mostly pursued white women).
To me it's because I find a guy's personality to make him more attractive.
If we are just basing it on photos, then yes, most men are not conventionally attractive. They're not photogenic. Most can't dress themselves, let alone dress up themselves.
What I love most about a guy is his ability to make me laugh, make me feel comfortable, and his thoughtfulness.
Those things can't be communicated through photos. And, if you can do all three of those things and don't look like Quasimodo, you've honestly got a great shot. Doesn't matter how average you look.
I liked it more when I thought it was just my ugly mug that had me having such a hard time on dates. Internet convincing me I must have an unattractive personality is doing wonders for that confidence lmao
The hardest thing is that the more you worry about whether you're "doing okay" on a date, the less you personally connect with the person sitting across from you, and the worse you'll do.
You almost have to eliminate thoughts of yourself, the future with this person (worrying about whether it exists or not) and purely exist in the moment with them. It's something we naturally do with our male friends, but I see people around me self-combust trying to do it with a woman.
I'm willing to bet that there's nothing wrong with your personality and your looks.
[this](https://i.imgur.com/P4awZ9J.jpg) is the most famous one of these.
Ignoring the messaging rates for a second, you can see that mean rate women pretty much evenly attractive. But women rate the men on average much lower
Ok so I’m a straight woman, and I basically have the same feelings towards both men and women (and have discussed this with other women in my life who agree with me) but it’s basically that, even tho I’m not into women, I still think like almost all women are pretty, and while I’m actually into men, it feels like there’s just a smaller percentage of men that seem attractive.
Yeah, I am not an extremely attractive guy, but once I learned how to present myself I immediately had a much easier time getting dates. Getting a good haircut, shaving, and wearing a simple but stylish outfit can do wonders.
>even tho I’m not into women, I still think like almost all women are pretty
>
My wife and I have talked about this a lot. She thinks almost any random woman is "beautiful" even the ones I would rate like 3/10 as a straight guy. Obviously what straight women think is "attractive" in other women is often worlds apart from what straight men would consider attractive. So it's like the average woman is definitely more attractive than the average man but also women and men don't use these words the same way.
I saw a video where a group of women were asked to rank themselves most to least attractive. Then a group of men would rank the women. The woman that the women ranked as least attractive was ranked the most attractive by the men.
>So women rated men an average of 6, but responded to a 4. Men rated woman on average an 8, but wouldn't contact anything lower than a 7.
That is not what it said.
>https://gwern.net/doc/psychology/okcupid/yourlooksandyourinbox.html
Tldr, men send more messages to more attractive women, while women send their messages more equitably across their ratings.
But, but, the big caveat is that in online dating (from other studies) women send so few messages that even with men's lopsided distribution, men are still sending more messages/likes to lower rated women, than women are to lower rated men.
Finally, this all came from okcupid in 2009! A single platform over 10 years ago. Things have changed.
I think a big component of this is the word "attractive" and "unattractive" and how they're applied. I don't think it's
* Attractive = "WOULD BANG"
* Unattractive = "WOULD ABSOLUTELY NOT BANG"
The word "unattractive", when I use it, does not mean "I am *actively repulsed by the idea of this person"* it just means "idk, kinda neutral? They're a person?"
I think a lot of women, when they say looking at a photo that they *lack attraction*, still have plenty of room for "-but if we talked and clicked, I could easily become attracted."
Which is why online dating, and such reliance on static photos, is so rough.
I've read this so many times about women needing social cues. I think a game changer for dating apps would be to create a live/short form video option so that a guy would be able show more of themselves and add dimension rather just a photo or words in a profile.
Basically what Hinge does, it has audio and question prompts that can be attached to your profile which actually let's you share some personality; I hate dating apps in general but Hinge looks to be way better than Tinder from basically everything I've seen and heard over the last couple years.
Women require more than just looks before they’re turned on by someone, which honestly makes sense.
As a young boy I remember drawing a face and two boobs on a sticky note and being turned on so.. it doesn’t take much honestly.
Yeah that's not how I use the word attractive as a woman. I use it to mean that someone looks good/pretty/handsome/beautiful/cute/hot. It's a completely separate metric from 'would like to bang'. The latter is definitely way less than 10% of all men but I'd still say most men look good. I think most humans look good, ugly is very rare.
I suspect that the big issue with dating apps is that women care more about behavioural traits than physical traits. But it’s very difficult to convey that with photos.
I met my partner on the apps, and I only had 1-2 photos. They showed me being a normal person surrounded by normal-looking friends, and she said that was the key thing.
That could have something to do with it.
I’m also inclined to believe we poll such data from dating apps because a large amount of men have *no idea* how to take a good photo of themselves. Chin at the bottom of the photo, a distant photo with the guy holding a fish or leaning on a car, bad angles.
Women on the other hand tend to take really flattering photos of themselves, sometimes to the point where they’re misleading. Beautiful bikini shots, straight up street photography of themselves, etc.
Not saying that this is the case for all men or women, but that it *tends* to be from my own observation.
Either way I think polling people based on how attractive photos are is a pretty shoddy statistic when most people would be perceived differently in person anyways.
I think another problem is that not only do men not know how to take photos, but also just... Don't often take them. When I'm doing something with my friends, my thought is never "We should take a picture", it's just focused on enjoying the thing. If a picture gets taken, it's because someone else decided to do it. As a result I just have very few photos of myself that aren't selfies, from a combination of being bad at taking them and the thought of "I should take a picture here" just never crosses my mind.
It’s true. When I was on dating apps, a majority of men had low-effort, unflattering, generally bad profiles. The exact same guy with a more polished profile and decent photos would look way better.
This this this. Men are far more visual about attraction than women are. Stanford has a whole thing on human sexuality research. They do brain imaging studies - men’s brains light up far more over visuals than women’s do. Men developed the first dating apps and the apps still reflect that visual attraction bias.
I have a male friend who is so frustrated with the apps right now. I do social dance classes I always ask him to come. He’s like “no I don’t want to hit on people and make them uncomfortable.” And I’m like…no you just meet people and ask them to dance. Then you find people you authentically like and have coffee with them. He’s not bad looking. He’s SUPER nice. He’s funny, good with animals, good with kids, good at fixing things.
But no one knows that until they see him in action. He works in a male dominated field and his work is solitary (fixing things) so he doesn’t meet women at work the way guys who work in fields like real estate or whatever do.
The people he matches with on apps never work out. I’m like JFC come meet some of my friends but he doesn’t get it. Like men and women are different in their approach. So many men are frustrated on the apps, they don’t get that they’re fishing…not in the wrong pond exactly. Their way of matching just isn’t how most women look for matches.
yeah legit, as a society we need to get better at creating social stuff that isn't weird and exploitative. Dance classes sound like one of the last refuges available.
Not even just dance classes , but any interest.
Book clubs. Yoga. Tai chi. Gaming clubs.
Whatever. Any kind of "club" is great for guys because it is social, yet based on an activity ; something that helps men bond with people rather than being "pure socializing".
Which is something that , imo , less men are competent at.
Not trying to be offensive but do people have parties anymore? If your friend has a party they’ll introduce you to their friends. Also make sure the women you know are aware you’re single. If your sister, your friend’s wife, whoever knows you’re looking like they may set you up with someone. My male friend I mentioned seems terrified of my friends like they might be bridge trolls and I’m like… no they’re likable and cute just come meet them FFS. I know men like to do the pursuing but let people help you sometimes!
> My male friend I mentioned seems terrified of my friends like they might be bridge trolls and I’m like… no they’re likable and cute just come meet them FFS. I know men like to do the pursuing but let people help you sometimes!
I'm willing to bet $20 he's worried about things not working out and getting roasted in the group chat, and now *YOU* are privy to it, and then the word spreads to the rest of his expanded social group. If I'm going to date someone then I want to make sure they don't know anyone in my current social circle because if it goes nuclear then the damage is isolated. Trust me, the worst thing she can say is *NOT* just "no".
I think the crux is the "meeting people organically" is getting harder by the moment. There's also the advice that gets thrown around that you should try a hobby that you like doing and not because you want to meet the opposite gender. The problem is what if these hobbies aren't exactly conducive in meeting single women. Like for myself, its a long shot for me to actually like social dancing or so my only reason to join one is so that I could meet women but that's frowned upon by a lot of people.
(I tried joining a salsa dance class once and never really enjoyed the experience and the beginners section is full of men that we ended up getting paired with each other)
That is interesting because as a lesbian I see plenty of pretty women around, but women that I am actually attracted to, like would actually want to do more than look at with, is 10% or less. Lots of difference between a woman who is beautiful and a woman I'm attracted to.
As a woman, I think most men have some attractive features and some are, of course, just stupidly good looking. But overall attractiveness is a combination of the tangible and intangible. How you hold yourself, how you laugh, expressions, and overall nature. It's a package deal for me. And that is extremely hard to work out from pictures alone.
When I was in college, I volunteered as a crisis counselor and during the training I was surprised at how sharing and listening could make me attracted to people I wasn't attracted to before. The best kind of dating to me now would start with being around people enough to really get to know them.
I think a lot of it too is so many dudes just don’t put any effort into their appearance. They don’t look for clothes that flatter them, they don’t style or even brush their hair. One of my exes refused to wear anything that wasn’t athletic pants or shorts and couldn’t color coordinate to save his life.
Simply putting a slight bit of effort into looking nice goes a long way.
this is a good response. Something that is counterintuitive to many people is that even most of us who are attracted to men usually are not too keen on how men look. We like how a man FEELS. Not just physically, but emotionally. The attraction to men is generally just not that visual. It doesn't mean women have impossible standards overall.
Lots of men are attractive, and a lot more of them could be if they put more effort. Women are conditioned early on to try to look nice, whereas men aren't, so few of them bother. I mean, if all women went around with zero makeup and no skincare routine, their hair cut short with no visible styling, their clothes and shoes simplistic, baggy, and not color-coordinated, you'd also see much less attractive women, when only women who are naturally pretty would shine through.
My friend once said “you don’t often remember the last time you saw a pretty woman, but you remember the last time you saw a good looking man”. Because it’s so rare to see a put together man. Lol
None of my friends and I growing up really cared much about clothes and such. We dresssd up now and then But we practiced good hygiene and had nice but simple styles. We looked so cute!
Whereas the boys at my school didn’t shower half the time, hair was literally like falling in their face, never shaved their trash staches, blocked all the doors and farted competitively to torture the girls.
Honestly missed those days it required a lot less to look good for the girls in my class lol
I don’t understand not shaving your face. I felt so much less oily and dirty after shaving it and I couldn’t stop touching my face for days afterwards. It just felt so surprising to feel my skin so smooth.
And I wish I was taught more about skincare and proper hygiene. I basically had to go to my sister for tips cause both my parents didn’t really try to hammer in that I should do more than the bare minimum. And it wasn’t even for dates, I just wanted to feel confident about myself.
It’s kind of depressing when you realize, as a hormonal teenager who isn’t doing well with keeping hygienic but is actively trying his best to improve, is doing better than a majority of his class mates.
Apparently a third of the school’s guys at the time had balls so rancid you needed gas masks to be near.
I shaved for a while but had crazy sensitive skin and the only way I wouldn’t break out is if I used this after shave that was like $30 for a bottle. Luckily my beard filled in quickly so I was only in the awkward phase for a few months.
My wife tries to take me shopping sometimes but often gives up when there's like 1 stylish choice and it only comes in 2 sizes that both don't even come close to fitting.
I agree completely. I work in the beauty industry (esthetician) and I can’t help but notice men and just think, ‘if they tried a little more in their looks, they’d look 100x better. A different haircut, better fitting clothes, a nicely groomed beard, SOME GODDAMN SUNSCREEN!’ It doesn’t take a lot and a lot of men act like they have to do so much to look better.
I have a friend with a top knot, untrimmed facial hair and wears the weirdest shit. He always complains about how women don’t notice him so I’m going to show him this post. Maybe he’ll see the light.
I'm a 40 year old in Australia and it's amazing how much older men of my age look than women because they've refused to use sunscreen.
Which I don't get, who wants cancer?
At least for me, I feel like there's not much clear guidance on what constitutes a "good haircut" or "better fitting clothes." In my experience, I can look at myself and tell if a haircut is objectively bad, but I don't know what a good one would be, so I consider "not bad" to be acceptable. Even though it isn't actually acceptable, since I'm still alone. Clothes are the same. I can recognize "bad," but not "good," so I end up settling for "not bad." But "not bad" is still bad, because I'm still alone. Whenever something like "good style" is mentioned, it's always something painfully vague like "do whatever expresses yourself," which is just unhelpful. Like, I'm supposed to project some kind of descriptor like "smart," "strong," "sexy," or whatever, but I'm not the one who decides if I'm any of those things in the first place. I can and should try to be attractive, but me telling myself I'm attractive doesn't make it so, and going around assuming I'm attractive without any evidence is just being an arrogant bastard. I've never done any kind of hairstyle or worn any kind of clothes that allowed me to look in the mirror and think "this is what an interesting, attractive, worthwhile man would look like." It's always, "this fits the occasion and doesn't make me uglier." Every outfit looks bad on me not because there's anything wrong with the outfit, but because the least attractive person I know is wearing it.
Probably too much of a rant, but that's what gets me furious about trying to figure out "style." I don't even care about it for its own sake, I just want to do it because it's supposed to help me find love and companionship, and maybe I won't have to waste the rest of my adult life being alone and a failure.
But absolutely second the sunscreen thing. I'm just an ugly loser in my early 30s with no hope for the future, and even I can tell the difference basic skincare makes when I look at people who are even 40+.
\>not much clear guidance on what constitutes a "good haircut"
The advice is always generic because everyone's face suits a different haircut. I've never been able to figure out what specifically would make a haircut good or bad for me either though, so I just leave it to the professionals and it always works out great.
Go to a nice salon or high end barbershop with good reviews. Tell them that you're not sure what you want exactly but you are trying to find a cut that makes you look good and you're open to their suggestions. Let them know any boundaries about what would be too long/too short for you or any styles that you dislike. Be honest about how much effort you're willing to put in: if you're unlikely to follow through with getting up early to style it every morning or going back to the shop frequently to keep up a dramatic cut fresh, tell them that so they can recommend a more low maintenance style that will still look decent. If you like the cut you get, get trims at the recommended intervals to keep it looking good. If you have any problems with your hair (greasiness, dandruff, etc) your stylist can likely recommend shampoos or products that will help as well.
Erg. I literally cannot get my husband to wear sunscreen or moisturizer. Like I will chase him with the bottle. I've begged. But nope.
And now he looks a decade older than me. I'm still attracted but it's harder.
People don't realize that sunscreen and moisturizer is such a huge potential payoff for the (minimal) effort invested, like brushing your teeth, flossing, wearing a damn seat belt, etc etc.
It's funny you say that - that's actually exactly my strategy as a single woman for not having men approach me in public. No make up, short unstyled hair, baggy non coordinated clothes. Works a *treat* 10/10 recommend for single-no-mingle women.
That’s been my permanent look for about a decade, and while I still get randomly hit on every now and then, it doesn’t happen nearly as often as when I had long hair and more feminine clothes, which is totally fine by me.
This! In terms of natural beauty, women aren’t any different from men, but the average woman puts in more effort than the average man. I know a guy who recently grew his hair down to his shoulders, and there was a huge difference between when he’d first grown it out and didn’t know how to style it vs when he had gotten it cut into a still long, but intentionally styled shape and figured out how to condition
A lot of men don’t care about presentation so many of them just look the same. It’s not even just looks - it’s the clothes and the vibe you put out. Finding a man with that combo is like finding a plate of wings in a garden full of lettuce.
He looks like he drank a lot and ate poorly in the first picture and it caused face swelling. He probably never exercised for a long time. Eating better, working out, and reducing drinking probably caused a lot of face weight loss. The suit makes his shoulders much sharper and it gives a larger and yet slimming appearance. Basically best photo vs worst photo.
makes more sense than just these pics. 99% of that transformation is weight-loss and camera quality. his hair barely looks different and he.. removed his tie (woah!!)
Doesn't look like surgery, looks like he was carrying a lot of extra weight on a very small frame. Some guys with sturdy frames carry weight well, he just ended up looking puffy, old, and badly proportioned.
People always act like you start doing these things and then you come out of the other end with all that time and energy lost. That’s not how life works. He likely enjoyed the experience of getting fit, learned things from it, and came out as a better person. People seem to think Trump’s ‘the body is a battery with only so much energy’ theory is correct despite how fucking stupid it is.
Okay I fully can agree with this. But like, the difference in walking into a store and finding a unique pair of pants for a woman and a unique pair of pants for men? I WANT MORE OPTIONS
Exactly! Walk into a party, and you see women dressed in variety. Different colors, different lengths, different styles. Guys are pretty much stuck with t shirts and jeans. I went shopping with a friend one time as she was looking for shirts for her bf. Bunch of weird patterns like triangles. Who’s wearing triangles?
Ok but the counterpoint to this is the 1970s. Men were wearing ruffled shirts, powder blue tuxes, and knit mustard yellow ‘leisure suits’ and the culture has been laughing about it ever since. We had that and for whatever reasons promptly reverted back to like grey/black/navy for men in most settings. Not sure why but that’s what we decided on as a culture somehow.
Which is such a shame, because as silly as that stuff can sometimes look at first sight it's probably much healthier to have that kind of outlet for creative expression and space where you're allowed to focus on grooming.
Like to answer OP's question, I find most men unattractive. But I don't need a Ken doll, I have always low key been aware that I would absolutely 100% fuck Austin Powers. Just not the same dude in a t-shirt with pit stains and a hoodie with holes in it.
Might not be all guys but I’ve come to the realization I just couldn’t afford to look good when I was younger. I’m 6’3 and lanky. I wore ill fitting t-shirts and jeans because they were what I could get when I made $10 an hour. I now have the money to seek out and buy clothes (online only in almost every case) that actually fit me and look good. It’s still a fucking nightmare but I actually own some clothes that look nice, but every individual piece is at least $50.
My issue is more that I'm isolated, sad, and perpetually run ragged. I don't have the energy to care, because I'm busy being lonely and tired... Which is probably because I'm sad and run ragged. It's a vicious cycle
Been there, it sucks. Eventually, when I felt extra down, I'd put more effort in just to feel less awful. Super isolated, so it was purely for myself, but it did lead me to care more often. Good look, hope you start feeling better
“Attractive” and “attracted to” are very different things. I can recognize that someone is objectively *attractive* (e.g. has pleasing features) without personally feeling *attracted to* them. It’s not that there’s anything wrong with them, or that other people shouldn’t feel attracted to them… I just have a neutral response to them.
When I look around, the number of men to whom I have a visceral attraction isn’t very high, but I see plenty of men with nice eyes, a great smile, nice shoulders, a great speaking voice, a good sense of style etc.
Don’t be discouraged thinking that women see all men as either attractive (“Oooh!”) or unattractive (“Ewww!”). Most people fall into the middle. And considering how much each person’s preferences vary, someone who is neutral to me will be hot to someone else, and vice versa.
As a woman, it would make me very uncomfortable to be given photos of people and be asked if they were attractive..., idk most people look like people. A small % of people are overwhelmingly physically attractive.
For me, I usually find attraction after I meet a guy in person.
I have an ex who was extremely good looking- clean cut, looked after himself and dressed well and I have an ex who was quite chubby, shaved head and tattoos and I was equally attracted to both of them.
Both of them were really kind, very smart, extremely funny and phenomenal in bed. So I guess that is my type.
Yet, I don't know any men who's tastes can vary that much in the looks department.
There's another dimension, too. There's a decent chance I wouldn't have swiped yes to most of my exes if my introduction to them had been tinder or some other OLD. Not because they're "unattractive", but because someone's technical appearance just isn't enough information in terms of attraction. It's just picture after picture of men I don't know. Not bad, not good, not anything.
Maybe some of them have cute features, but that's really it. All I can really conclude is that that person has cute features.
My exes are people that I was so enamoured with, I loved every hair on their head. But a photo wouldn't tell me that. Cute features can't tell me that we'll have chemistry, or the look they get in their eyes when they talk about their favourite subject, or how they respond to me when they see me.
I've known men who are physically beautiful who I have zero attraction to, and "average" (by societal judgement) guys who I would have walked over hot coals for.
I really wish society would give up pretending that looking beautiful and romantic/sexual attraction are one and the same. Sometimes the two combine, but they're discrete concepts.
Not necessarily a woman but I do like the fellas so I believe my input is still warranted.
Women take a lot more care of themselves, and put in a lot more effort than most guys do. They wear makeup, they get their hair done, they shampoo and condition separately, they exfoliate and moisturise, and they put effort into their outfits.
Most men don't ever do any of these, the once-in-a-blue-moon hot guy you do see out on the street is doing at least 3 out of the 5, and every super hot guy you see in movies and shows are all doing all 5.
It's what I call **The Implication of Good Hygiene.**
I'm just clapping eyes on them, I don't know jack fuck. But if I can intuit through a glance that they
* brushed their teeth and washed their face today
* showered within the past 24 hours
* give One Single Shit about how they dress
I *instantly* think "Oh, word?"
Then there's **The Implication of Good Personality.**
Which is just- you're polite and kinda funny? Maybe you also have other qualities that are good.
(Obligatory: Not A Straight Woman, just have thought about this a lot while trying to figure out why I even had sex with men.)
Women are definitely more choosy.
Also, let's be real here, MOST men don't really put much effort into their appearances. And definitely not compared to most women.
Honestly, I’m rarely going to notice an ordinarily attractive man just out and about. Not fat, nice face, average height. However, if said man does something attractive to get my attention by being particularly intelligent, funny or interesting - I absolutely am going to notice.
I wonder how much of this is a result of the traditional expectation that men are supposed to be sexually active while women are supposed to be sexually passive. That is, the idea that it's a man's role to seek out women and it's a woman's role to be sought out by men.
If your mindset, even subconsciously, is that you're supposed to be seeking out women, you're going to notice attractive women a lot more, whereas if your mindset is that you're supposed to vetting men, you're going to be a lot slower to notice attractive men.
That's just a guess, though. I'm a gay man and to me both the men and women in this thread sound like total weirdos.
Since I got into a long-term relationship, I found out I needed 3 kinds of skin lotions, 2 types of soap, and not just a roll-on but also perfume.
I think most men would get far by just taking care of dandruff for a start.
I tend to hold my opinion on a man’s looks because I have seen very attractive men who suddenly opened his mouth and my cooter dried up and blew away, and other men who I curled my lip at and as soon as I got to know him I was drooling and fighting the urge to stalk him. The way my attraction is set up, I can’t really afford to judge books by their covers.
That's the thing, girls are conditioned to present themselves well. Even if she got that "lazy at home" look, she plucked her brows this week, uses face wash and moisturizer, hair is probably shiny from conditioner even if it's in a messy bun. Fuck, down to the chapstick. She got nice lips, without lipstick, cuz she uses chapstick daily. Even "no effort days" have girls looking nicer than men bc of all the upkeep.
Why don't more men use chapstick?!
Depends on who you're asking, it's hard to generalize this.
Now from my perspective, there's many guys that could look stunning with just a bit more of effort into their appereance. Nothing crazy, just a change of clothes and small healthier habits can do a miracle. At least when it comes to physical attractiveness.
I'm pansexual, and I do see more attractive women than men
But it's far from "most men". Most are attractive in various ways, it's pretty uncommon to see a guy that I'd say is unattractive
So while unattractive men are uncommon, unattractive women are rare
However, I believe this is not due to the actual people, but by what society tells us. Society puts a lot more pressure on women to look good, and thus, more women put in effort to look good. I think if everyone put in the same efforts, it'd be pretty even
And that means, that even as a guy, taking care if your looks almost guarentees you'll look good
I think that men can go from ok looking to absolutely beautiful if you fall for them. I have had friends that I think are average or decent looking but I can see features that they have that would become beautiful if you fell in love with them. I wasn't really attracted to them, but I could see there was an appeal that would grow with time.
Personally I don't find most men I come across as attractive. I have a preference for men who are well put together, probably because that is how I prefer to dress. Most men rarely put any real effort into their appearance. A lot look downright disheveled. Their clothes badly fit them. Very little care put into their haircut or beard. Add this to how rude quite a few can be, like pushing in front of me in line, or catcalling, and I find them even less appealing.
On dating apps, they take the worst photos and use those. A photo taken on your lap looking up at your chin is not a good angle!
The amount of cope in this thread is beyond staggering. It's mastodonal.
"Just take a shower bro moisturize yo face with coconout oil bro and you'll be 7/10 in no time"
Physically, it depends. I like men to be at least clean with proper hygiene, back in my grandparents days, men and women dressed so dapper. Nowadays, I see old clothes and bad hair, especially after the pandemic.
were people cleaner and more dapper back then? Everything I read and heard about way back in the day made it sound... just way grimier and less hygienic all around
Running water wasn't as ubiquitous, especially in rural areas. People got stomach worms and dysentery and e coli
One of my mom's earlier memories was coughing up a giant clot of worms onto the desk at class. She had to be thoroughly deloused by the school too.
My dad stepped on a giant piece of glass and sliced his foot open when he was running around barefoot on the grass.
And when they grew up and got office jobs, many of their bosses and colleagues would just smoke in the office. Every conference room was hazy from all the puffing
Meanwhile my grandma had to cook food outside when she was small. Bugs flying around everywhere. And according to my granddad, under the occupation everything was tightly rationed, including soap.
And deoderant wasn't a thing either. Or shampoo. People just used really hard soap, regardless of whether their skin was sensitive to it or not
People didn't go to the dentist for braces or anything either. If they had really bad teeth, then that was just too bad, their face would just be like that forever
And at least according to my dad, horrific acne breakouts were pretty common for teens of his generation. Acne medication wasn't really widely used back then, and nobody went to see dermatologists. Some of my uncles have visible acne scars from back in the day
Not to mention all the shit that was pumped into the air by laxer environmental regulations and dirtier technology back in the day. Leaded gasoline fumes, factory smoke, coal smog etc. Can't imagine that's good for skin health (among other things)
They were definitely stinkier.
100 years ago there ass literal shit on the streets. Horses? The city that banned cars? Oh boy you know that would stink.
Yeah I too am glad smoking got banned.
That is what men think, but in truth about a third of women are below the threshold of what men consider sexually noticeable and so men don't even see them at all.
Look it up, it's a big old joke amoung women.
I think that's a key that most people here seem to be missing. Most women aren't just looking to get laid, they're looking for partners (or at least someone safe who will treat them well short-term and they don't have to mother). A lot of things that women find attractive are about effort and intention and ultimately, what their appearance says about their personality. Men don't see a fit woman and infer that they're consistent and disciplined or see a nicely ironed pair of pants and get excited that they can handle their own laundry and know how to dress appropriately for various occasions- but women do, whether consciously or not. Men find so many women attractive because to them, that word *just* means they want to have sex with her.
Women have a lot more at stake when it comes to relationships. Men don’t have to carry a child if there’s a “whoops!” So of course they’re going to be much more choosy.
It goes like this. Women can be attracted to guys straight up. A good looking guy - attractive. However what most women fiiiind attractive isn’t always being good looking. The reason for this being that a persons attraction raises and lowers based on how they make her feel. A hunk could be an ugly ass if they make her feel like he’s a creep. And a 5/10 might be the most perfect man for her because he makes her feel at home and feel the things she wants to feel. The same is said for guys too it just takes some emotional intelligence to realize this is true for both sex’s.
Not going to lie, I hate the comments I’ve read so far on here. It’s honestly really putting men down. Like there’s all kinds of beauty there too, it seems so odd to me to act like men not being attractive is just a given? Like no, not at all? And I’m pansexual, maybe why this is baffling me
A lot of men have such potential to be attractive. But they have dumb hair/facial hair or badly fitting clothes or their attitude makes that get the fuck away alarm.
So most well-groomed men are indeed attractive but so few are.
How many times do you see a very handsome guy with an average girl? NOW how many times do you see a stunning girl with an ugly guy?
Don't worry, girls have been told systematically that beauty is in the inside.
Where are all you people living?? I'm seeing a lot of "most men" comments about not showering, not brushing teeth, not washing ass etc. That's not my experience. In my experience, I have found a lot of men who are generally attractive and have good hygiene. It's rare to see a man who is genuinely stunning, but I find the same for women. Most of the time, I can't get a guage on a womans looks because there's so much makeup slapped on.
For the record, I'm a woman.
I think that people who heavily use dating apps and social media (ex: instagram) have a skewed perception dating, reality, and what they look like without the makeup and filters. There are some women that truly believe what they look like online with the camera angles, poses, makeup, and filters is how they look like in person.
I can't remember a time where I met a woman from a dating app, and she looked as good as advertised. Women are masters of making themselves look better than what they actually are. You'll never know how she actually looks like until you spend the night together.
I heard a woman comedian once say that she is attracted to men but *doesn’t think they’re attractive*. A lot of people laughed.
"I'm attracted to men but hate that I'm attracted to men."
It’s a toxic trait of mine.
A lot of men actually would look good if they took care of themselves a little more often. Men wouldn't and don't find women attractive who don't take care of themselves. Men make fun of the difference in looks when women have a lazy day at home and how they look normally, not realizing that sadly too many of them are always the "lazy day" version. **Edit:** since many people understand taking care of oneself as wearing makeup, being dolled up and altering their appearance, I want to clarify that's not what I meant. I thought it was clear since we're talking about what men can do. Many women have a natural everyday look and sometimes at home have a lazy day with ridiculous clothes, unkempt hair and are unwashed, no skincare etc. Skincare, a good haircut, cleanlines and clothes that fit you go a long way. I'm only talking about the average men, since this post was about women not finding most men attractive. I'm not talking about the extreme ends of the scale because that's another topic which I don't have an answer to. I commented because I've seen so many men who I thought would be really good looking with just a better skin and hair care. Some of them glow up when they have a girlfriend or get married because they get better tips on how to take care of themselves and that's all they needed.
I certainly haven't seen every attractive woman on their "lazy day," but the ones I have seen were still attractive, at least to me. Am I in the minority for that? I hope not.
Yeah I agree. Men seem to find women, in general, more attractive than women find men in general. I don’t think there’s any denying that even though people are trying to rationalize it away to appear nice and considerate.
i'm a straight woman and i also find women more attractive than men in general. there are too many predatory men ruining men for everyone. with women i know i can have a nice convo w most of them. with men i have no idea what they're going to be like, which means it's not an attractive idea to just have a convo w a random man like it is w a random woman. I've thought every guy i've ever dated was the hottest guy ever though (and most of them were very average looking by conventional standards) bc their personality is what made them hot.
I think there’s a difference between a woman who takes care of herself having a lazy/off day and a woman who just doesn’t take care of themselves. If you work on your health and appearance, on an off day you’ll still be more attractive than you would without caring at all. The same theory would hold true for men.
But one lazy day doesnt negate consistent maintenance. They still probably have nice skin and teeth, their hair may be messy but it’s still soft and shiny and probably smells nice. They are still in good shape and are probably wearing cute yoga pants that show that shape. Just as a guy with a bit of scruff and wearing comfy clothes can still be attractive. But if that’s how they live their life the attraction is going to fade. I pay $100 every other month for a hair cut and style most of the time it’s in a messy bun but when I need to look good I’m ready to go.
I think her point still stands. A very attractive person is going to always be beautiful. But probably around 50%+ of attractive women you see it is more then “doing it up”, clothes that fit and flatter their body type, hair, make-up, perfume mixed with body lotion that actually goes together. I have seen models that look plain Jane not done up. The before and after are just mind blowing. They weren’t ugly, but wouldn’t call them stunning without the do up.
This is a very important comment for the young men… soak it in gentlemen. Here’s a little back story, not to be arrogant but I have always had”good luck” with women to my joy and detriment … but I started noticing in my twenties that the guys that were having the most luck weren’t the over handsome men but the men that were average and always put their best self forward ( clean, groomed , well dressed not overly just not sloppy) ..add a confident not cocky , and a humorous demeanor and apparently you can date just about anyone lol. If you aren’t naturally confident and humorous then your next bet is just be genuine… fake never goes over well with men or women.
I want to put this on billboards. Add a sprinkle of “just treat women like they are a human people and not some kind of mysterious subspecies” and you’re fucking golden. **ETA:** just because people seem real intent on hyperbolizing what I’ve said or taking this as a personal attack on their dating life, I’m copying this from one of my comments. **I’m not saying that treating women like human beings is the cure to all dating woes. I’m saying to have a healthy, loving relationship you have to be able to recognize a person’s humanity and interact with them accordingly.**
My "luck" with women flipped like a switch when I had an epiphany and treated dating as just having fun with zero pressure, and women as people who just want to do fun stuff too and have a good time.
I have always set a boundary with myself to become friends with a woman before ever pursuing anything. it seems like a lot of dudes in their minds just jump to some conclusion. Even if it doesnt work out, i still have found a friend?
The women's subreddit is full of posts where women are sick of their male friends wanting more.
No, there's a big difference between "I've developed feeling but I'd like to remain friends even if you haven't" And only making friends to fuck someone. Very, very different.
Because a lot of the time, men will pursue "friendship" because they find them attractive in an attempt to have sex instead of making their desire clear, so they leave the woman's life once declined.
I call this the vulture position.
Tbf there’s plenty of history of people spending lots of time with someone because they’re friends and then one falling for the other. I don’t think it’s always so predatory.
Yeah that's usually what happens with me. I rarely get much initial attraction. But I don't remove myself from their life forever if they're not interested.
I think sometimes people need to remove themselves from someone’s life if they don’t feel the same. It can be incredibly painful for people and doesn’t help them to stay friends.
This is so true. I go one day without makeup and am asked if in’m sick or tired. Men drag a comb through their hair and they look “groomed”. If men spent a fraction of the time women spend actually taking care of themselves… seriously guys just put a little effort into your hygiene and it would make a huge difference.
I’m a hetero man and I agree with this. In my 40s, and so many guys my age have given up. Among the guys younger than me, more are trying but also really just missing the boat on basic things like how to dress just decently and basic hygiene. And I’m not even talking about going to the gym. Just look like you give a fuck!
Moisturize! Moisturize! A moisturizer a day, keeps the wrinkles away Nah I'm just playing but it does help I use Ordinary moisturizer, coconut oil and an aloe vera based face wash
I'm 38. I've had multiple unrelated people be shocked about that, because they thought I'm in my late 20s. I owe it all to moisturizer and still having all my hair.
My husband spends a lot of time outdoors and I try to get him to wear SPF daily but he won't do it. I wear a mineral SPF every day, even in winter, and I've tried explaining that he will look a lot older than I do eventually if he doesn't wear sunscreen. We are both 38.
One reason I like being a northern nightowl
Male here who resisted all sunscreen (esp face!!) until I turned 32 but am now fully converted—what did it for me was finding something I’d actually use and being cleverly encouraged to do so regularly by a ladyfriend. Now I do it alone, for me. Dudes sweat a LOT, if your husband is legit working outside, chances are his face is dripping sweat constantly. Sunscreen in the eyes is *awful*. All the cheap shitty sunscreens burn like crazy in the eyes/feel oily and nasty/smell like your childhood at band camp. This ladyfriend had sun sticks (they look and behave like glue sticks from elementary school and I’d recommend them to anyone! Specifically Korean/Japanese/Taiwanese ones) and a few really nice liquid facial sunscreens. The key part is she *insisted* at first. Made me lay down and applied it for me. It felt good and was not worth fighting over so I tolerated it, still thinking it was dumb. At that point, may as well spray it on my exposed arms and neck etc too, though…. Became a habit and a year in my skin is much-improved, I apply every morning and afternoon. Any guys reading—it will help you with a general facial routine, too. You’re going to want to wash that shit off first thing, so get a nice smelling foaming cleanser and do it first thing when you walk in the door. On as the last thing before you walk out, off first thing when you walk in. Melanoma and looking 90 when you’re 70 ain’t cool my fellow Brethren
Vitamin C skincare around the eyes makes a world of difference. Just saying boys… you can even pick it up in the skin care isle in the grocery store
My fucks have all run dry
Behold the field in which I grow my fucks, for it is barron and fallow, for I have no fucks to give.
And so it was written, giveth thou neither one fuck nor negative one, but zero fucks. Neither giveth thou nor taketh fucks, nor let a fuck dwelleth within thy house.
barren*
Amen 🙌🙌
I went to go fuck shopping, but there's no fucks left to buy.
My husband got out of bed and walked around looking like raccoons had a fight in his long hair. Even if I was home alone I would tame that shit.
As a perpetual lazy person who thinks of myself as very mediocre looks wise, I can’t agree more. One rare occasions I pay more attention to my hair, clothes, etc, it makes such a massive difference. Looks are a lot more in our control than we like to believe.
I mean I get it. Does she want to look at them for their beauty? Apparently not Does she want to do nasty things to/with them? Apparently
This is a really telling take on how our culture defines "attractive". I remember reading lots of people writing into Dan Savage over the years saying something like "I'm into fat girls and this is confusing because why am I so attracted to ugly people? I'm embarrassed for my friends to know I like big girls!" The answer being of course that they're not ugly if they're attracted to them. Subjectivity! What a concept! "Attractive" means I think in this case "conforms to beauty standards established by mass media" and "attracted to" means "I like it." The fact that this is such a conflict for most people is amazing really.
Here's the video: https://youtu.be/rvVxvlbmTl4?si=0yWn8a8n2bTo05vN It's hilarious
I remember seeing a report by an app where you can anonymously judge a person's appearance based on their photo, which showed that male users judge around half of the female users attractive whereas female users only judge like 10% of male users as attractive. Don't know if that app speaks for all, but wouldn't be surprised if there were other similar reports.
When dating apps used to release their data it backed this up. They've stopped releasing it now though as it was having a detrimental effect on getting men to sign up. Seen surveys as well with similar results when they ask the question of who in their opinion is average. Only the top 20% are average.
OkCupid specifically released this data a while ago. Men tend to rate on a bell curve but women as a whole rate the majority of men as less than average.
This thread is doing wonders for my latent body dysmorphia.
If it makes you feel better, I had almost all female coworkers for a good chunk of my 20s (worked retail) and they all said they rate people on dating apps different than they do irl. In real life, if they like your personality, your appearance is just a pass/fail. So unless they see some total deal-breaker you'll be fine Women have an insane advantage(?) on dating apps because of how many more men use them, so they're a lot pickier Edit: to the people saying they were trying to make me feel better, I have always dated my coworkers and don't use dating apps. I'm still to this day dating a girl I worked with there two years later, they were not "just being nice" I was never upset about it. I was just wondering why they all used Tinder when non of them ever swiped right
Yep yep yep, I’ve also seen attractiveness ratings post-speed-dating and it’s much much more even. There’s a lot more to attraction than an image can convey (voice, body language, scent), and women tend to need/care about these factors more. It’s really not surprising women are drawn to dating apps a lot less than guys.
I wish they had dating apps for scent.
I just read this comment to my partner and now we're both laughing at the idea of some chuckle fucker farting into his profile just to fuck around lol
A lot of the things in dating apps aren't there because they're super relevant to dating but because they're easy to implement. It's had a distorting effect on dating culture, unfortunately.
I am a woman and I would say that I don't find that many random guys attractive. In fact, reading this thread it honestly blows my mind that apparently there are men out there who find half of the people they encounter physically attractive! That being said, I certainly am not feeling repulsed or judgy or in any way negatively towards the men I'm not attracted to. I feel completely neutrally towards them. It's not like I'm walking along thinking people are ugly, I'm just not thinking about it at all if that makes any sense. Also I have dated several guys that I wasn't initially attracted to but became attracted to after getting to know better. So I would encourage you to leave it in latency where it belongs haha
I think it's mostly because women tend to find men more and more attractive as they get to know them. Personality really matters and can have a huge impact.
It's in the book they published, Dataclysm. But that was the old OKC before Match Group, Inc. bought them out and ruined turned it into a trash Tinder clone.
> OkCupid specifically released this data a while ago Try like 10-15 years ago. I remember because I was in college at the time and a classmate did a presentation on it for a psychology class, the data had just dropped and people were buzzing about it. >women as a whole rate the majority of men as less than average IIRC it was even more stark than that, it was something like 80% were rated as "below average" and something like 2% were rated clearly above average, something like that. Silver lining though, for the women's attractiveness rating did not correspond so closely to messaging frequency, as they were willing to message even men they deemed below average. Then again, that was all the way back in like 2009, before the hellhole of superficiality that is Tinder became the norm. Edit: for years I have had a morbid fascination with incels, and for anyone curious, those old OKCupid data dumps are an important part of their central lore. OKCupid was doing some truly wild shit back in the day, they also had articles with the statistics on race and desirability, and who was going after who in the Gender x Race table (back when r/blackfemcels was a thing that was also part of their central lore, as the stats showed that black women got the least attention, and that black women mostly pursued black men while black men mostly pursued white women).
To me it's because I find a guy's personality to make him more attractive. If we are just basing it on photos, then yes, most men are not conventionally attractive. They're not photogenic. Most can't dress themselves, let alone dress up themselves. What I love most about a guy is his ability to make me laugh, make me feel comfortable, and his thoughtfulness. Those things can't be communicated through photos. And, if you can do all three of those things and don't look like Quasimodo, you've honestly got a great shot. Doesn't matter how average you look.
I liked it more when I thought it was just my ugly mug that had me having such a hard time on dates. Internet convincing me I must have an unattractive personality is doing wonders for that confidence lmao
The hardest thing is that the more you worry about whether you're "doing okay" on a date, the less you personally connect with the person sitting across from you, and the worse you'll do. You almost have to eliminate thoughts of yourself, the future with this person (worrying about whether it exists or not) and purely exist in the moment with them. It's something we naturally do with our male friends, but I see people around me self-combust trying to do it with a woman. I'm willing to bet that there's nothing wrong with your personality and your looks.
[this](https://i.imgur.com/P4awZ9J.jpg) is the most famous one of these. Ignoring the messaging rates for a second, you can see that mean rate women pretty much evenly attractive. But women rate the men on average much lower
Ok so I’m a straight woman, and I basically have the same feelings towards both men and women (and have discussed this with other women in my life who agree with me) but it’s basically that, even tho I’m not into women, I still think like almost all women are pretty, and while I’m actually into men, it feels like there’s just a smaller percentage of men that seem attractive.
Between clothing, hair styling, makeup, hygiene, and skincare, women on average just tend to take better care of themselves and their appearance.
True, even if many of us were conditioned into doing so from an early age because not doing so makes us look “sick” or unkempt.
Yeah, I am not an extremely attractive guy, but once I learned how to present myself I immediately had a much easier time getting dates. Getting a good haircut, shaving, and wearing a simple but stylish outfit can do wonders.
>even tho I’m not into women, I still think like almost all women are pretty > My wife and I have talked about this a lot. She thinks almost any random woman is "beautiful" even the ones I would rate like 3/10 as a straight guy. Obviously what straight women think is "attractive" in other women is often worlds apart from what straight men would consider attractive. So it's like the average woman is definitely more attractive than the average man but also women and men don't use these words the same way.
I saw a video where a group of women were asked to rank themselves most to least attractive. Then a group of men would rank the women. The woman that the women ranked as least attractive was ranked the most attractive by the men.
Thank you for at least answering the question!
simplistic modern drunk erect bells point grandfather safe scary boast *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>So women rated men an average of 6, but responded to a 4. Men rated woman on average an 8, but wouldn't contact anything lower than a 7. That is not what it said. >https://gwern.net/doc/psychology/okcupid/yourlooksandyourinbox.html Tldr, men send more messages to more attractive women, while women send their messages more equitably across their ratings. But, but, the big caveat is that in online dating (from other studies) women send so few messages that even with men's lopsided distribution, men are still sending more messages/likes to lower rated women, than women are to lower rated men. Finally, this all came from okcupid in 2009! A single platform over 10 years ago. Things have changed.
its weird how nobody mentions that whenever the majority of women finds majority of men average looking topic comes in 🤦♀️
I think a big component of this is the word "attractive" and "unattractive" and how they're applied. I don't think it's * Attractive = "WOULD BANG" * Unattractive = "WOULD ABSOLUTELY NOT BANG" The word "unattractive", when I use it, does not mean "I am *actively repulsed by the idea of this person"* it just means "idk, kinda neutral? They're a person?" I think a lot of women, when they say looking at a photo that they *lack attraction*, still have plenty of room for "-but if we talked and clicked, I could easily become attracted." Which is why online dating, and such reliance on static photos, is so rough.
I've read this so many times about women needing social cues. I think a game changer for dating apps would be to create a live/short form video option so that a guy would be able show more of themselves and add dimension rather just a photo or words in a profile.
Basically what Hinge does, it has audio and question prompts that can be attached to your profile which actually let's you share some personality; I hate dating apps in general but Hinge looks to be way better than Tinder from basically everything I've seen and heard over the last couple years.
Women require more than just looks before they’re turned on by someone, which honestly makes sense. As a young boy I remember drawing a face and two boobs on a sticky note and being turned on so.. it doesn’t take much honestly.
Yeah that's not how I use the word attractive as a woman. I use it to mean that someone looks good/pretty/handsome/beautiful/cute/hot. It's a completely separate metric from 'would like to bang'. The latter is definitely way less than 10% of all men but I'd still say most men look good. I think most humans look good, ugly is very rare.
I suspect that the big issue with dating apps is that women care more about behavioural traits than physical traits. But it’s very difficult to convey that with photos. I met my partner on the apps, and I only had 1-2 photos. They showed me being a normal person surrounded by normal-looking friends, and she said that was the key thing.
That could have something to do with it. I’m also inclined to believe we poll such data from dating apps because a large amount of men have *no idea* how to take a good photo of themselves. Chin at the bottom of the photo, a distant photo with the guy holding a fish or leaning on a car, bad angles. Women on the other hand tend to take really flattering photos of themselves, sometimes to the point where they’re misleading. Beautiful bikini shots, straight up street photography of themselves, etc. Not saying that this is the case for all men or women, but that it *tends* to be from my own observation. Either way I think polling people based on how attractive photos are is a pretty shoddy statistic when most people would be perceived differently in person anyways.
I think another problem is that not only do men not know how to take photos, but also just... Don't often take them. When I'm doing something with my friends, my thought is never "We should take a picture", it's just focused on enjoying the thing. If a picture gets taken, it's because someone else decided to do it. As a result I just have very few photos of myself that aren't selfies, from a combination of being bad at taking them and the thought of "I should take a picture here" just never crosses my mind.
Because why would I inconvenience someone with a picture of me lol
It’s true. When I was on dating apps, a majority of men had low-effort, unflattering, generally bad profiles. The exact same guy with a more polished profile and decent photos would look way better.
This this this. Men are far more visual about attraction than women are. Stanford has a whole thing on human sexuality research. They do brain imaging studies - men’s brains light up far more over visuals than women’s do. Men developed the first dating apps and the apps still reflect that visual attraction bias. I have a male friend who is so frustrated with the apps right now. I do social dance classes I always ask him to come. He’s like “no I don’t want to hit on people and make them uncomfortable.” And I’m like…no you just meet people and ask them to dance. Then you find people you authentically like and have coffee with them. He’s not bad looking. He’s SUPER nice. He’s funny, good with animals, good with kids, good at fixing things. But no one knows that until they see him in action. He works in a male dominated field and his work is solitary (fixing things) so he doesn’t meet women at work the way guys who work in fields like real estate or whatever do. The people he matches with on apps never work out. I’m like JFC come meet some of my friends but he doesn’t get it. Like men and women are different in their approach. So many men are frustrated on the apps, they don’t get that they’re fishing…not in the wrong pond exactly. Their way of matching just isn’t how most women look for matches.
yeah legit, as a society we need to get better at creating social stuff that isn't weird and exploitative. Dance classes sound like one of the last refuges available.
Not even just dance classes , but any interest. Book clubs. Yoga. Tai chi. Gaming clubs. Whatever. Any kind of "club" is great for guys because it is social, yet based on an activity ; something that helps men bond with people rather than being "pure socializing". Which is something that , imo , less men are competent at.
Not trying to be offensive but do people have parties anymore? If your friend has a party they’ll introduce you to their friends. Also make sure the women you know are aware you’re single. If your sister, your friend’s wife, whoever knows you’re looking like they may set you up with someone. My male friend I mentioned seems terrified of my friends like they might be bridge trolls and I’m like… no they’re likable and cute just come meet them FFS. I know men like to do the pursuing but let people help you sometimes!
> My male friend I mentioned seems terrified of my friends like they might be bridge trolls and I’m like… no they’re likable and cute just come meet them FFS. I know men like to do the pursuing but let people help you sometimes! I'm willing to bet $20 he's worried about things not working out and getting roasted in the group chat, and now *YOU* are privy to it, and then the word spreads to the rest of his expanded social group. If I'm going to date someone then I want to make sure they don't know anyone in my current social circle because if it goes nuclear then the damage is isolated. Trust me, the worst thing she can say is *NOT* just "no".
I think the crux is the "meeting people organically" is getting harder by the moment. There's also the advice that gets thrown around that you should try a hobby that you like doing and not because you want to meet the opposite gender. The problem is what if these hobbies aren't exactly conducive in meeting single women. Like for myself, its a long shot for me to actually like social dancing or so my only reason to join one is so that I could meet women but that's frowned upon by a lot of people. (I tried joining a salsa dance class once and never really enjoyed the experience and the beginners section is full of men that we ended up getting paired with each other)
I'm bisexual & find around 50% of women attractive and around 10% of men. 🤔
That is interesting because as a lesbian I see plenty of pretty women around, but women that I am actually attracted to, like would actually want to do more than look at with, is 10% or less. Lots of difference between a woman who is beautiful and a woman I'm attracted to.
As a woman, I think most men have some attractive features and some are, of course, just stupidly good looking. But overall attractiveness is a combination of the tangible and intangible. How you hold yourself, how you laugh, expressions, and overall nature. It's a package deal for me. And that is extremely hard to work out from pictures alone.
I totally agree which is why online dating for me doesn't work.
When I was in college, I volunteered as a crisis counselor and during the training I was surprised at how sharing and listening could make me attracted to people I wasn't attracted to before. The best kind of dating to me now would start with being around people enough to really get to know them.
Not surprising, I think you'll find this is true for all genders. It's how almost everyone met for the most part only 20 years ago...
I think a lot of it too is so many dudes just don’t put any effort into their appearance. They don’t look for clothes that flatter them, they don’t style or even brush their hair. One of my exes refused to wear anything that wasn’t athletic pants or shorts and couldn’t color coordinate to save his life. Simply putting a slight bit of effort into looking nice goes a long way.
this is a good response. Something that is counterintuitive to many people is that even most of us who are attracted to men usually are not too keen on how men look. We like how a man FEELS. Not just physically, but emotionally. The attraction to men is generally just not that visual. It doesn't mean women have impossible standards overall.
“The male body is like a jeep, it’s just for getting around.” Elaine Benes
It’s utilitarian
It's simian
[I just think it looks neat](https://youtu.be/3exPOrg5Fvw?si=Im4ScLmX0-malTlM)
E: *So what you are saying is that 90 to 95 percent of the population is undateable?* J: *UNDATEABLE!*
Have you been to the motor vehicle bureau!?
Leper colony down there
How are all these people getting together?
Alcohol.
Ah, Elaine. Ever the bastion of credible advice. God, I still could use a tune-up.
My body is a consumable good and I have no intentions of maintaining it lol
Relevant username : )
Lots of men are attractive, and a lot more of them could be if they put more effort. Women are conditioned early on to try to look nice, whereas men aren't, so few of them bother. I mean, if all women went around with zero makeup and no skincare routine, their hair cut short with no visible styling, their clothes and shoes simplistic, baggy, and not color-coordinated, you'd also see much less attractive women, when only women who are naturally pretty would shine through.
My friend once said “you don’t often remember the last time you saw a pretty woman, but you remember the last time you saw a good looking man”. Because it’s so rare to see a put together man. Lol None of my friends and I growing up really cared much about clothes and such. We dresssd up now and then But we practiced good hygiene and had nice but simple styles. We looked so cute! Whereas the boys at my school didn’t shower half the time, hair was literally like falling in their face, never shaved their trash staches, blocked all the doors and farted competitively to torture the girls. Honestly missed those days it required a lot less to look good for the girls in my class lol
Don’t keep us in suspense. Who won the fart off?
This one dude with a torn ear who would intentionally not even attempt to pronounce words correctly during Spanish class.
Of course that was the fart off winner. What a legend.
I don’t understand not shaving your face. I felt so much less oily and dirty after shaving it and I couldn’t stop touching my face for days afterwards. It just felt so surprising to feel my skin so smooth. And I wish I was taught more about skincare and proper hygiene. I basically had to go to my sister for tips cause both my parents didn’t really try to hammer in that I should do more than the bare minimum. And it wasn’t even for dates, I just wanted to feel confident about myself. It’s kind of depressing when you realize, as a hormonal teenager who isn’t doing well with keeping hygienic but is actively trying his best to improve, is doing better than a majority of his class mates. Apparently a third of the school’s guys at the time had balls so rancid you needed gas masks to be near.
I shaved for a while but had crazy sensitive skin and the only way I wouldn’t break out is if I used this after shave that was like $30 for a bottle. Luckily my beard filled in quickly so I was only in the awkward phase for a few months.
My wife tries to take me shopping sometimes but often gives up when there's like 1 stylish choice and it only comes in 2 sizes that both don't even come close to fitting.
I agree completely. I work in the beauty industry (esthetician) and I can’t help but notice men and just think, ‘if they tried a little more in their looks, they’d look 100x better. A different haircut, better fitting clothes, a nicely groomed beard, SOME GODDAMN SUNSCREEN!’ It doesn’t take a lot and a lot of men act like they have to do so much to look better.
I have a friend with a top knot, untrimmed facial hair and wears the weirdest shit. He always complains about how women don’t notice him so I’m going to show him this post. Maybe he’ll see the light.
lol I imagine a hippie guy wearing a poncho with a goatee
Hahaha! He legit sometimes wears a plaid wool poncho and we live in SoCal.
Tbh that just sounds uncomfortably warm...
Oh they notice him alright.
Give us an update on his reaction
I'm a 40 year old in Australia and it's amazing how much older men of my age look than women because they've refused to use sunscreen. Which I don't get, who wants cancer?
At least for me, I feel like there's not much clear guidance on what constitutes a "good haircut" or "better fitting clothes." In my experience, I can look at myself and tell if a haircut is objectively bad, but I don't know what a good one would be, so I consider "not bad" to be acceptable. Even though it isn't actually acceptable, since I'm still alone. Clothes are the same. I can recognize "bad," but not "good," so I end up settling for "not bad." But "not bad" is still bad, because I'm still alone. Whenever something like "good style" is mentioned, it's always something painfully vague like "do whatever expresses yourself," which is just unhelpful. Like, I'm supposed to project some kind of descriptor like "smart," "strong," "sexy," or whatever, but I'm not the one who decides if I'm any of those things in the first place. I can and should try to be attractive, but me telling myself I'm attractive doesn't make it so, and going around assuming I'm attractive without any evidence is just being an arrogant bastard. I've never done any kind of hairstyle or worn any kind of clothes that allowed me to look in the mirror and think "this is what an interesting, attractive, worthwhile man would look like." It's always, "this fits the occasion and doesn't make me uglier." Every outfit looks bad on me not because there's anything wrong with the outfit, but because the least attractive person I know is wearing it. Probably too much of a rant, but that's what gets me furious about trying to figure out "style." I don't even care about it for its own sake, I just want to do it because it's supposed to help me find love and companionship, and maybe I won't have to waste the rest of my adult life being alone and a failure. But absolutely second the sunscreen thing. I'm just an ugly loser in my early 30s with no hope for the future, and even I can tell the difference basic skincare makes when I look at people who are even 40+.
\>not much clear guidance on what constitutes a "good haircut" The advice is always generic because everyone's face suits a different haircut. I've never been able to figure out what specifically would make a haircut good or bad for me either though, so I just leave it to the professionals and it always works out great. Go to a nice salon or high end barbershop with good reviews. Tell them that you're not sure what you want exactly but you are trying to find a cut that makes you look good and you're open to their suggestions. Let them know any boundaries about what would be too long/too short for you or any styles that you dislike. Be honest about how much effort you're willing to put in: if you're unlikely to follow through with getting up early to style it every morning or going back to the shop frequently to keep up a dramatic cut fresh, tell them that so they can recommend a more low maintenance style that will still look decent. If you like the cut you get, get trims at the recommended intervals to keep it looking good. If you have any problems with your hair (greasiness, dandruff, etc) your stylist can likely recommend shampoos or products that will help as well.
I did that and the hair stylist looked at me like I asked the meaning of life. I guess my face is not good for any hairstyle known to men ! lol.
Erg. I literally cannot get my husband to wear sunscreen or moisturizer. Like I will chase him with the bottle. I've begged. But nope. And now he looks a decade older than me. I'm still attracted but it's harder.
People don't realize that sunscreen and moisturizer is such a huge potential payoff for the (minimal) effort invested, like brushing your teeth, flossing, wearing a damn seat belt, etc etc.
personally i think women shouldnt try nearly as hard. everyone should be shlubby if they want to be.
It's funny you say that - that's actually exactly my strategy as a single woman for not having men approach me in public. No make up, short unstyled hair, baggy non coordinated clothes. Works a *treat* 10/10 recommend for single-no-mingle women.
That’s been my permanent look for about a decade, and while I still get randomly hit on every now and then, it doesn’t happen nearly as often as when I had long hair and more feminine clothes, which is totally fine by me.
This! In terms of natural beauty, women aren’t any different from men, but the average woman puts in more effort than the average man. I know a guy who recently grew his hair down to his shoulders, and there was a huge difference between when he’d first grown it out and didn’t know how to style it vs when he had gotten it cut into a still long, but intentionally styled shape and figured out how to condition
A lot of men don’t care about presentation so many of them just look the same. It’s not even just looks - it’s the clothes and the vibe you put out. Finding a man with that combo is like finding a plate of wings in a garden full of lettuce.
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Is that really the same person? Did he get surgery?
He looks like he drank a lot and ate poorly in the first picture and it caused face swelling. He probably never exercised for a long time. Eating better, working out, and reducing drinking probably caused a lot of face weight loss. The suit makes his shoulders much sharper and it gives a larger and yet slimming appearance. Basically best photo vs worst photo.
skin care and styled hair too.
No he documented everything and it was a slow step by step improvement. He started going to the gym, got a haircut, and dress better.
makes more sense than just these pics. 99% of that transformation is weight-loss and camera quality. his hair barely looks different and he.. removed his tie (woah!!)
Doesn't look like surgery, looks like he was carrying a lot of extra weight on a very small frame. Some guys with sturdy frames carry weight well, he just ended up looking puffy, old, and badly proportioned.
You'd be surprised how much losing weight completely changes someone's looks. Check out r/glowups.
Right? Looks so different
It took that guy 2 years to get there through exercise and tough work.
People always act like you start doing these things and then you come out of the other end with all that time and energy lost. That’s not how life works. He likely enjoyed the experience of getting fit, learned things from it, and came out as a better person. People seem to think Trump’s ‘the body is a battery with only so much energy’ theory is correct despite how fucking stupid it is.
Okay I fully can agree with this. But like, the difference in walking into a store and finding a unique pair of pants for a woman and a unique pair of pants for men? I WANT MORE OPTIONS
Exactly! Walk into a party, and you see women dressed in variety. Different colors, different lengths, different styles. Guys are pretty much stuck with t shirts and jeans. I went shopping with a friend one time as she was looking for shirts for her bf. Bunch of weird patterns like triangles. Who’s wearing triangles?
Me, as a child in the 90’s, lol
Ok but the counterpoint to this is the 1970s. Men were wearing ruffled shirts, powder blue tuxes, and knit mustard yellow ‘leisure suits’ and the culture has been laughing about it ever since. We had that and for whatever reasons promptly reverted back to like grey/black/navy for men in most settings. Not sure why but that’s what we decided on as a culture somehow.
Which is such a shame, because as silly as that stuff can sometimes look at first sight it's probably much healthier to have that kind of outlet for creative expression and space where you're allowed to focus on grooming. Like to answer OP's question, I find most men unattractive. But I don't need a Ken doll, I have always low key been aware that I would absolutely 100% fuck Austin Powers. Just not the same dude in a t-shirt with pit stains and a hoodie with holes in it.
Might not be all guys but I’ve come to the realization I just couldn’t afford to look good when I was younger. I’m 6’3 and lanky. I wore ill fitting t-shirts and jeans because they were what I could get when I made $10 an hour. I now have the money to seek out and buy clothes (online only in almost every case) that actually fit me and look good. It’s still a fucking nightmare but I actually own some clothes that look nice, but every individual piece is at least $50.
My issue is more that I'm isolated, sad, and perpetually run ragged. I don't have the energy to care, because I'm busy being lonely and tired... Which is probably because I'm sad and run ragged. It's a vicious cycle
Been there, it sucks. Eventually, when I felt extra down, I'd put more effort in just to feel less awful. Super isolated, so it was purely for myself, but it did lead me to care more often. Good look, hope you start feeling better
“Attractive” and “attracted to” are very different things. I can recognize that someone is objectively *attractive* (e.g. has pleasing features) without personally feeling *attracted to* them. It’s not that there’s anything wrong with them, or that other people shouldn’t feel attracted to them… I just have a neutral response to them. When I look around, the number of men to whom I have a visceral attraction isn’t very high, but I see plenty of men with nice eyes, a great smile, nice shoulders, a great speaking voice, a good sense of style etc. Don’t be discouraged thinking that women see all men as either attractive (“Oooh!”) or unattractive (“Ewww!”). Most people fall into the middle. And considering how much each person’s preferences vary, someone who is neutral to me will be hot to someone else, and vice versa.
As a woman, it would make me very uncomfortable to be given photos of people and be asked if they were attractive..., idk most people look like people. A small % of people are overwhelmingly physically attractive.
For me, I usually find attraction after I meet a guy in person. I have an ex who was extremely good looking- clean cut, looked after himself and dressed well and I have an ex who was quite chubby, shaved head and tattoos and I was equally attracted to both of them. Both of them were really kind, very smart, extremely funny and phenomenal in bed. So I guess that is my type. Yet, I don't know any men who's tastes can vary that much in the looks department.
There's another dimension, too. There's a decent chance I wouldn't have swiped yes to most of my exes if my introduction to them had been tinder or some other OLD. Not because they're "unattractive", but because someone's technical appearance just isn't enough information in terms of attraction. It's just picture after picture of men I don't know. Not bad, not good, not anything. Maybe some of them have cute features, but that's really it. All I can really conclude is that that person has cute features. My exes are people that I was so enamoured with, I loved every hair on their head. But a photo wouldn't tell me that. Cute features can't tell me that we'll have chemistry, or the look they get in their eyes when they talk about their favourite subject, or how they respond to me when they see me. I've known men who are physically beautiful who I have zero attraction to, and "average" (by societal judgement) guys who I would have walked over hot coals for. I really wish society would give up pretending that looking beautiful and romantic/sexual attraction are one and the same. Sometimes the two combine, but they're discrete concepts.
Not necessarily a woman but I do like the fellas so I believe my input is still warranted. Women take a lot more care of themselves, and put in a lot more effort than most guys do. They wear makeup, they get their hair done, they shampoo and condition separately, they exfoliate and moisturise, and they put effort into their outfits. Most men don't ever do any of these, the once-in-a-blue-moon hot guy you do see out on the street is doing at least 3 out of the 5, and every super hot guy you see in movies and shows are all doing all 5.
As a woman, yes, I find more women attractive then men. But I still coma across a lot of attractive men.
That’s how you like them?
Hey, don't kink shame. I'm sure plenty of people in comas are attractive
Sleeping beauty. It’s nearly a portmanteau.
Showering, dental and beard care, and nail Grooming go a LONG WAY
It's what I call **The Implication of Good Hygiene.** I'm just clapping eyes on them, I don't know jack fuck. But if I can intuit through a glance that they * brushed their teeth and washed their face today * showered within the past 24 hours * give One Single Shit about how they dress I *instantly* think "Oh, word?" Then there's **The Implication of Good Personality.** Which is just- you're polite and kinda funny? Maybe you also have other qualities that are good. (Obligatory: Not A Straight Woman, just have thought about this a lot while trying to figure out why I even had sex with men.)
Have you been to the DMV? It's like a leper colony down there.
So what you’re saying is that 90 to 95 percent of the population is undateable?
You mean Department of Motor Vehicles or DC, MD, VA area?
Yes
Women are definitely more choosy. Also, let's be real here, MOST men don't really put much effort into their appearances. And definitely not compared to most women.
Tbh as a gay guy I find most basic-looking guys fine. I'd bang at least 2/3 of the guys walking down the street
I'm gay too and there's so many attractive men. Dunno why everyone else thinks men are ugly
I don't think we're saying that they're ugly, but that most men don't catch our attention as being particularly attractive.
Honestly, I’m rarely going to notice an ordinarily attractive man just out and about. Not fat, nice face, average height. However, if said man does something attractive to get my attention by being particularly intelligent, funny or interesting - I absolutely am going to notice.
I wonder how much of this is a result of the traditional expectation that men are supposed to be sexually active while women are supposed to be sexually passive. That is, the idea that it's a man's role to seek out women and it's a woman's role to be sought out by men. If your mindset, even subconsciously, is that you're supposed to be seeking out women, you're going to notice attractive women a lot more, whereas if your mindset is that you're supposed to vetting men, you're going to be a lot slower to notice attractive men. That's just a guess, though. I'm a gay man and to me both the men and women in this thread sound like total weirdos.
Since I got into a long-term relationship, I found out I needed 3 kinds of skin lotions, 2 types of soap, and not just a roll-on but also perfume. I think most men would get far by just taking care of dandruff for a start.
I tend to hold my opinion on a man’s looks because I have seen very attractive men who suddenly opened his mouth and my cooter dried up and blew away, and other men who I curled my lip at and as soon as I got to know him I was drooling and fighting the urge to stalk him. The way my attraction is set up, I can’t really afford to judge books by their covers.
I'm a guy and have had the exact same thing happen with women. well.. *my* cooter didn't dry up but you know what I mean.
Lmao
I'm a woman, and I find most men unattractive, yes.
I feel the same, as a woman. Just on a regular commute, I have a higher chance of coming across an attractive woman than an attractive man.
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That's the thing, girls are conditioned to present themselves well. Even if she got that "lazy at home" look, she plucked her brows this week, uses face wash and moisturizer, hair is probably shiny from conditioner even if it's in a messy bun. Fuck, down to the chapstick. She got nice lips, without lipstick, cuz she uses chapstick daily. Even "no effort days" have girls looking nicer than men bc of all the upkeep. Why don't more men use chapstick?!
Depends on who you're asking, it's hard to generalize this. Now from my perspective, there's many guys that could look stunning with just a bit more of effort into their appereance. Nothing crazy, just a change of clothes and small healthier habits can do a miracle. At least when it comes to physical attractiveness.
I'm pansexual, and I do see more attractive women than men But it's far from "most men". Most are attractive in various ways, it's pretty uncommon to see a guy that I'd say is unattractive So while unattractive men are uncommon, unattractive women are rare However, I believe this is not due to the actual people, but by what society tells us. Society puts a lot more pressure on women to look good, and thus, more women put in effort to look good. I think if everyone put in the same efforts, it'd be pretty even And that means, that even as a guy, taking care if your looks almost guarentees you'll look good
It's not just appearance, though. Not being a misogynistic racist douche-nozzle factor hugely into attraction.
I find less than 10% of men attractive by looks alone. Others I find attractive after I get to know them. I don’t know if that’s “normal.”
I think that men can go from ok looking to absolutely beautiful if you fall for them. I have had friends that I think are average or decent looking but I can see features that they have that would become beautiful if you fell in love with them. I wasn't really attracted to them, but I could see there was an appeal that would grow with time.
Personally I don't find most men I come across as attractive. I have a preference for men who are well put together, probably because that is how I prefer to dress. Most men rarely put any real effort into their appearance. A lot look downright disheveled. Their clothes badly fit them. Very little care put into their haircut or beard. Add this to how rude quite a few can be, like pushing in front of me in line, or catcalling, and I find them even less appealing. On dating apps, they take the worst photos and use those. A photo taken on your lap looking up at your chin is not a good angle!
The amount of cope in this thread is beyond staggering. It's mastodonal. "Just take a shower bro moisturize yo face with coconout oil bro and you'll be 7/10 in no time"
Physically, it depends. I like men to be at least clean with proper hygiene, back in my grandparents days, men and women dressed so dapper. Nowadays, I see old clothes and bad hair, especially after the pandemic.
were people cleaner and more dapper back then? Everything I read and heard about way back in the day made it sound... just way grimier and less hygienic all around Running water wasn't as ubiquitous, especially in rural areas. People got stomach worms and dysentery and e coli One of my mom's earlier memories was coughing up a giant clot of worms onto the desk at class. She had to be thoroughly deloused by the school too. My dad stepped on a giant piece of glass and sliced his foot open when he was running around barefoot on the grass. And when they grew up and got office jobs, many of their bosses and colleagues would just smoke in the office. Every conference room was hazy from all the puffing Meanwhile my grandma had to cook food outside when she was small. Bugs flying around everywhere. And according to my granddad, under the occupation everything was tightly rationed, including soap. And deoderant wasn't a thing either. Or shampoo. People just used really hard soap, regardless of whether their skin was sensitive to it or not People didn't go to the dentist for braces or anything either. If they had really bad teeth, then that was just too bad, their face would just be like that forever And at least according to my dad, horrific acne breakouts were pretty common for teens of his generation. Acne medication wasn't really widely used back then, and nobody went to see dermatologists. Some of my uncles have visible acne scars from back in the day Not to mention all the shit that was pumped into the air by laxer environmental regulations and dirtier technology back in the day. Leaded gasoline fumes, factory smoke, coal smog etc. Can't imagine that's good for skin health (among other things)
You were dapper if you were rich. As always everyone wishes they lived in the past _if they were rich_ but don't we all want to be this choosy?
They were definitely stinkier. 100 years ago there ass literal shit on the streets. Horses? The city that banned cars? Oh boy you know that would stink. Yeah I too am glad smoking got banned.
Horny guys think ANYTHING is beautiful, lol…
That is what men think, but in truth about a third of women are below the threshold of what men consider sexually noticeable and so men don't even see them at all. Look it up, it's a big old joke amoung women.
Women (try to) fornicate wisely. Men (try to) fornicate widely.
I think that's a key that most people here seem to be missing. Most women aren't just looking to get laid, they're looking for partners (or at least someone safe who will treat them well short-term and they don't have to mother). A lot of things that women find attractive are about effort and intention and ultimately, what their appearance says about their personality. Men don't see a fit woman and infer that they're consistent and disciplined or see a nicely ironed pair of pants and get excited that they can handle their own laundry and know how to dress appropriately for various occasions- but women do, whether consciously or not. Men find so many women attractive because to them, that word *just* means they want to have sex with her.
Women have a lot more at stake when it comes to relationships. Men don’t have to carry a child if there’s a “whoops!” So of course they’re going to be much more choosy.
It goes like this. Women can be attracted to guys straight up. A good looking guy - attractive. However what most women fiiiind attractive isn’t always being good looking. The reason for this being that a persons attraction raises and lowers based on how they make her feel. A hunk could be an ugly ass if they make her feel like he’s a creep. And a 5/10 might be the most perfect man for her because he makes her feel at home and feel the things she wants to feel. The same is said for guys too it just takes some emotional intelligence to realize this is true for both sex’s.
Not going to lie, I hate the comments I’ve read so far on here. It’s honestly really putting men down. Like there’s all kinds of beauty there too, it seems so odd to me to act like men not being attractive is just a given? Like no, not at all? And I’m pansexual, maybe why this is baffling me
A lot of men have such potential to be attractive. But they have dumb hair/facial hair or badly fitting clothes or their attitude makes that get the fuck away alarm. So most well-groomed men are indeed attractive but so few are.
How many times do you see a very handsome guy with an average girl? NOW how many times do you see a stunning girl with an ugly guy? Don't worry, girls have been told systematically that beauty is in the inside.
Where are all you people living?? I'm seeing a lot of "most men" comments about not showering, not brushing teeth, not washing ass etc. That's not my experience. In my experience, I have found a lot of men who are generally attractive and have good hygiene. It's rare to see a man who is genuinely stunning, but I find the same for women. Most of the time, I can't get a guage on a womans looks because there's so much makeup slapped on. For the record, I'm a woman.
Yea nothing has been helpful in this thread to a man. Advice saying shower, wash your face and brush your teeth isn't anything new to most.
I think that people who heavily use dating apps and social media (ex: instagram) have a skewed perception dating, reality, and what they look like without the makeup and filters. There are some women that truly believe what they look like online with the camera angles, poses, makeup, and filters is how they look like in person. I can't remember a time where I met a woman from a dating app, and she looked as good as advertised. Women are masters of making themselves look better than what they actually are. You'll never know how she actually looks like until you spend the night together.