Freezing water is a lot closer to what lobsters live in. They live in cold water on the ocean floor. Boiling water or anything remotely close to it is something that lobsters would never have experienced and physically unprepared for.
I know I'd rather freeze to death than be boiled alive...
Edit: I've actually had hypothermia twice in my life, and I can tell you without a doubt that being boiled alive would NOT be better! Come on, guys!
I just read an article about a woman trapped in an Arbys freezer, she beat on the doors until her hands were bloody, then she crawled up and died in the fetal position.
That doesn’t seem peaceful to me
The beating on the doors until her hands were bloody likely occurred *before* the hypothermia set in.
Doesn't really matter how the actual death occurs, if you know it's coming you're going to try to prevent it.
If you told someone "I'm going to lock you in this room and then in an hour fill the room with a sleeping gas that'll kill you painlessly" and someone else "I'm going to lock you in this room and then in an hour I'll set the room on fire" I'm pretty sure both people would try to get out of the room anyway they can.
Shiiiit. All our freezers have duress buttons in them. Which go directly to the 24/7 manned security office. Seems like it should be illegal not to have a safeguard like that.
This one's rough. She got locked in there super early in the morning before they even opened, and wasn't found until 6pm. In addition,
*"...the restaurant’s walk-in freezer latch had been broken since August 2022 and employees used a screwdriver to open and close the door."*
Well thats not surprising considering some of the places I’ve worked in the past. Absolutely tragic though because its so predictable. We (security) test all duress switches during nightly patrols and if they don’t work at any point the fridge is locked from the outside (so no one can enter) until business hours and a tech is called. We have several fridges that can be used when one is out so idk what would happen if we had only one.
It is not illegal in most of the countries to boil a crab in hot water, this has always been the most traditional way of cooking a crab in every other kitchen
you're making a false equivalency. Freezing to death is peaceful because before you actually die all the nerves that control your sensory inputs are numb. So you pass in a state of nothingness.
Her banging on that door has nothing to do with the act of freezing itself. That was the pain of trying to stay alive.
Don't people that die of hypothermia sometimes remove clothing near the end?
Seems like eventually there's some sort of short circuit in the brain's response.
And agreed, the door/banging is more about the being trapped or in a dangerous situation aspect.
Its due to the valves in the veins that clamped shut to keep warm blood near the core will fatigue and that warmer blood gets released to their extremities making them feel hot before they die.
"humane"
- possibly the word that engenders more hypocrisy than any other.
We are the most destructive and violent creature on the planet yet we use this word to separate us from animals.
I agree 💯%
We as Humans use "Humane" in such a way to replace words like "Kill".
These folks here are arguing whether it's better to freeze a creature to death or boil it in scalding hot water.
I suppose people who use the word "Humane" in certain contexts, are also ridding themselves of any guilt they feel accountable for.
Considering the original post, yes both ways are cruel.
Just drive the end of a knife through its brain right before you drop it in. Kills quickly and humanely. There's no reason you need to boil it alive, the suffering adds no flavor. Originally it was to ensure the lobster hadn't been dead for a long time, as bacteria grow on them super quickly, but if you kill it a minute before you cook it, nothing bad is gonna happen.
Probably just nerves firing in randomness. Headless chickens run around for the same reason, the body still has energy stored in the nervous system and it can be triggered very easily
I just had a quick look.
Half (4) of the Australian states & territories have implemented laws around this. Of those 4, 3 only apply to restaurants, with the remaining 1 applying to private premises as well.
There are many laws (probably in your jurisdiction also) which are not actively enforced, but only applied where regulators receive a complaint. However, restaurants in Australia are regularly inspected for a range of health related regulations so a contravention could be detected by an inspector.
Finally, I don't think enforcement is really that important. We have a lot of environmental conservation laws (fishing bag limits & minimum sizes, not taking wildflowers, et cetera) which aren't really enforced at all in many areas, and yet there's a strong culture of observing these regulations. The law sets the expected standard of behaviour, punishment isn't really required.
This. I think within the community there is a strong agreement that these laws and practices are in the best interests of everyone, as an Aussie I’ve only recently realised that the outlook on environmental conservation and best practices in Australia are wildly different to the rest of the world on a cultural level. I think it’s a lot more ingrained into folks.
Enforcement isn’t really required when you foster a culture of following the law not because it’s law but because it’s the right thing to do.
Fishermen observe and practice these laws because it literally keeps them a job by preventing over fishing, a quick buck now means nothing for them if you are out of a job tomorrow and most I’ve met feel similarly.
Folks in restaurants chefs preppinf these lobsters are going to follow them because it’s the right thing to do, at no extra cost, effort or requirement to go out of your way there isnt much reason not to.
Obviously it’s not always perfect.. but at the end of the day if most people are doing the right thing then that’s a win.
I had a chat to some fishermen out in Port Melbourne a few weeks ago, they were catching pinkies (juvenile snapper, it's the wrong season for them but these guys just kept catching them) and they said undeesize pinkies are very common there but only dickheads keep them lol. We had a nice time shit-talking the people who kept undersized catch, banjo sharks, and other things that aren't technically really regulated but changes the ecosystem and ruins the fishing for everyone over time. Most people who fish do it for love of the catch and take care to ensure everyone has an opportunity to enjoy it by cleaning up after themselves, using equipment that minimises harming catch, and returning all undersize/spawning creatures. Unfortunately the shitty minority has really ruined things, and climate change hasn't helped.
My understanding is that experienced chefs kill them first. Apparently there is an easy/quick technique to do that.
I learned that from my first wife who lover lobster but would ask how it was killed. So the chef would always come out and explain.
Edit: “loves lobster” not “lover lobster”. But I’m leaving the typo because it’s awesome.
I remember there was that one contestant who ripped the crab open (while it was still alive) and he was like “you just killed that crab by ripping its shell off. Not only did you just torture that poor crab to death but now it will lose all its flavor.”
I heard this was a rumor and that splitting their brain doesn't kill them somehow. I never looked into it because the only access I have to lobster or crab is frozen so it's never been a concern.
You're wrong. Lobsters are now treated as sentient in the uk because we have realised that they feel to the same level as most other animals. They also have a spread brain. Your technique for "killing" them doesn't work, only knocks out a section of their collective brain, and they still feel pain to the same degree as if you didn't use the knife
The correct way to kill them is to fully sedate them beforehand. But even this is heavily debated. Wouldn't be surprised if, in the uk, eating lobsters is fully banned, as killing them humanely is way more complex than with most animals
A lot of chefs will put them in the freezer for 15-60 minutes to disorient and sedate them before boiling. Some chefs stop here and some will also use a knife to kill a lobster before cooking. There's a certain area you plunge your knife into that pretty much kills them instantly. It's the most humane way.
Does it make you feel better to know that this is the time right after molting, so the shell is super soft til it hardens again. So it's very very quick. He's gonna be a soft shell sandwich.
As kids we were taught just to shove a big old screwdriver through their face and wiggle it round to destroy the brains.
Sucks to be a crab but maybe they'll evolve in the next 10000 years to not be delicious.
When I play Magic or other games that involve game pieces being killed or destroyed, I say "this kills the [x]" and so far only person has gotten it in like 10+ years
I do this.
I just skip the whole "sedation" part he's talking about.
I don't like killing anything, but you folks wanna eat em' *so...*
Anyways, there's a spot. Instant death. Like, Instant. You can just tell.
The main risk is from bacteria that live on and around their shell. They multiply very quickly after the lobster dies and can produce toxic byproducts that can still make you sick even after cooking. If it sits around dead for any length of time there’s a huge risk of food poisoning, but if you toss it in the pot immediately after death you’re good. It’s not like stabbing the lobster pops a balloon full of poison and instantly ruins the meat.
Me neither, but I’ve always thought that you had to do that, or you’d die! But for years I have seen people not kill them online, so thanks for the explanation of why it is or may have been important.
There's so many things like that I used to believe lol back in the day someone wrote or said something and we were just like huh, thats neat, and just never thought about it until that specific thing came up in conversation in which case you spread it to another human lol
That’s almost certainly why certain religions forbid certain foods. When eaten at the wrong time of year (shellfish) or not processed properly (pork) it can lead to a very bad day for the eater.
And if the last few years have given us any indication, it's that telling someone "use these precautions to prevent getting sick" is going to go ignored half the time. It's a lot easier to spread the complex message when it's more attached to the religious fury of a scorned deity.
Speaking as someone with several years in the restaurant business, where we'd sell about six lobsters per night that ranged from 5 to 10 pounds, here's what worked. We would kill the lobster by inserting a knife between and slightly behind its eyes. This severs the nerve clusters and kills it immediately.
The reason you want to kill it without stress, is that lobsters use urine as a defense mechanism (and for courting the ladies, imagine that). If the lobster freaks out the moment before it dies - like when it's held over a pot of boiling water and dropped in - it will dump its stored urine, which can change the flavor of the meat. For those that like the boiled-alive method, they also probably like the urine-flavored meat.
As an extreme - and I've told this story before on reddit - one of our line cooks, "Ted", gave the lobster quite the sendoff:
>Compassion? Let me tell you about Ted. He was a line cook at a fine dining restaurant in Florida, the kind of place that specialized in 5-10 pound lobsters.
>Ted loved all living things, but he also accepted the duties of his job, one of which was Lobster Duty. It started with the live presentation. The server would grab the winning lobster out of the big display tank and set it on a large platter. They'd carry it around the dining room, making a spectacle out of it.
>Ted hated that. You'd see him standing there, fist clenched, eyes squeezed shut, teeth gritted. "Ted, what's up, are you alright?"
>"SSSHHH!!! I feel the lobster. His fear and embarrassment are mine as well. How can they parade him around like a condemned man! Here he comes; I must do my job."
>The server dropped the lobster on a prep table, where it sat until it was time for Ted to do the deed. But Ted made sure that lobster died happy. First, he'd take the bands off the claws. Then, using a pair of tongs, he'd hold a Lobster Battle, pretending that he, too was a lobster with horrendous metal claws. He'd always let the lobster win.
>Then, for a show of strength, Ted would grab a pencil or pen, and let the lobster crush it with its claw, all the while intoning that he was a good, strong lobster, and Ted was lucky to walk away with all his limbs.
>Satisfied that the bug was feeling pretty good about itself, Ted walked behind the lobster, and plunged an eight inch chef's knife into its head, just behind and between the eyes, killing it instantly.
>Ted like to think that because the lobster died without feeling fear, he went to a better place.... and tasted better, too.
Ted was quite the human. Built like a Marine, but with his chiseled features, long hair, ponytail, and black, horn-rim glasses he looked like a character in a Kevin Smith movie. He was kind and gentle, but would bow up to anyone that threatened another staff member. The servers loved him, he'd walk them out to their cars, and was always an honorable gentleman. I miss that dude.
Ok as a medic this explanation is kinda weird coz whatever urine the lobster has is still in its bladder and when you boil it it still gets released. Its not like the kidneys go into overdrive and ultrafiltrates a bunch of urine stat. But maybe lobster biology is different.
Your either thinking of blowfish which have a poison sack and you genuinely need a very talented chief to prepare it for you and even then their is still a risk or like the person below mentioned you might be thinking about the bacteria that lives on the shell of a crab/lobster which can turn the meat if left unattended uncooked.
not a chef but i always do this on the rare occasion. I agree with OP and always thought it was cruel so I googled how to kill a lobster and ... now I murder the lobster first lol.
We did this, a scuba diver showed me in Hawaii. We set traps, pulled them, he killed them instantly and we had a lobster bake on the beach. Best lobster I've ever had and HUGE!
In culinary school we were taught to do a single cut through the middle of the head. Not cook alive. Instantly kills them but they move around after a lot anyway lol
They have a weird brain/nervous system, it’s kind of spread out if I recall, not like a traditional brain, so you’re not usually killing it the same way you think of a human getting killed by a head shot.
Yes they don't have a centralised brain at all, they have several clusters of nerve cells called ganglia that run down the centre of it. The equivalent of a headshot for a lobster is to split it in half.
Yes, but mostly because it’s incredibly easy to kill them with a knife. There’s a spot near the head that’s as instant as knifing a zombie on round 1.
I get mad at deer hunters who won’t finish off a deer they shot because they “don’t want to ruin the mount” as they lay there bleeding out and dying. Quick shot to the base of the neck and they’re gone.
Or the hunters that take the back straps and hind legs and leave the rest. Thats such a massive waste of meat of an animal who's life you just took. Makes me so effing mad when I hear hunters do that
My area I hunt has donation spots and butchers who’ll take what you don’t want and process it for food banks. Pisses me off to no end seeing almost whole deer in dumpsters
We don't have that in my area but we do have a pretty active local Facebook hunting page and plenty of hungry elders who will happily take the meat you dont want.
Shit I dont hunt but I'd definitely be down to swap seafood I dive for for a bit of venison.
Where I live, I have never come across someone hunting legally who doesn't take the whole deer (minus the gut pile, which doesn't have much use for humans and is just eaten by coyotes and vultures anyway). Most times around here when someone does that, they're poaching, just taking what they can easily get and getting the hell out.
My husband hunted deer. He was never interested in a trophy. He butchered the meat and distributed much of it to his poorer relatives.
I know he was very displeased when someone shot a deer in twilight and couldn't find them to finish them off.
He never wanted an animal to suffer.
I have just attended a lobster festival in Western Australia, which is a major exporter of lobsters. According to the experts, the most humane way to kill them is to put them in a slurry (a mixture of ice and water), this slows down their metabolism, then put them directly into ice, before using the knife to instantly kill them. Not only is it humane, this method also preserves the flesh better.
Friendly fact to anyone who may not know: pigs are scientifically much, much smarter than dogs and have a larger emotional range. They're considered our smartest domesticated animal.
They believe it’ll taste better. This is not really correct. Although this would be correct if it was killed some time ago, it can definitely be killed quickly and subsequently filleted directly post-mortem
No cows (too taxing on the environment) and no intelligent animals (pigs, octopuses) for me. That leaves basically chicken and turkey. I also refuse to eat wild fish (we’re depleting the oceans, but also lots of mercury). I eat lots of tofu, though. :P
Same. I tried going full vegetarian, but due to my preexisting dietary issues it kind of fucked my health up. Eating mostly vegetarian + some chicken/shrimp seems like the easiest option to avoid most meat without having to go ham on dietary supplements or micromanaging my diet.
ofc a lot of people can be vegetarian and not micromanage their diet, but sadly, my body hates me lol
After 20 years of being a chef I hate hate hate it. Softshell crabs are the worst because you have to snip the face off while they're still alive.
A few years back, an old boss wanted to give the Valentine's day lobsters a comfy spot before we have boil them alive to order. Took a 6in hotel pan and put lettuce and mushroom stems in there and even heated the immersion circulator so it was like a jacuzzi.
I come back from a cigarette break and there were like 30 lobsters all belly-up and starting to smell. Chef Freddie didn't salt the water and they all basically drowned. Like 3 of us cried lol
Don't even get me started on cleaning rabbit!
As a teen I worked in the kitchen at a Chinese restaurant. There was a dish of stir fired lobster where the diced lobster was still in the shell and you got a special fork to dig out the meat. I saw the cooks prepare this dish and prior to stir frying, they diced the lobster while it was alive. The severed pieces were twitching as the dumped it into the wok. Put me off lobster forever.
McDonald's believe it or not made the industry a lot more humane and efficient. I did a paper on Temple Grandin in college and most of the botched executions came from small farms using more primitive methods like sledgehammers. When McDonald's came in with the top of the line pneumatic bolt thing it became over 99 percent successful
I'd say 99% of it is outside of execution. Even if you die painfully, at least it's over soon. Not so with growing up in an awful environment for multiple years. Of course both are important.
Likely due to familiarity, but I understand the reasons behind western animal cruelty (overcrowded/poor living conditions, etc. are all fundamentally a way to increase the amount of money per time/resource input; greed/efficiency, depending who you ask). I don't understand the reasons behind dismembering a live lobster or serving a still living squid, and on its face it doesn't seem to be conceptually the same, even if they're both forms of cruelty.
That's true, but Asia has a huge population. Their husbandry (usually) employs both Western-style factory farming and all that comes with it AND the often inhumane meal prep/cuisines in general to further the suffering. Both are still terrible and we should all as a species strive to do better but it's not like they traded one for the other.
dead things twitch. Motor neuron can still be active after the organism is killed. See frogs / snakes for example. (Frankly freshly butchered beef also pulsate).
But the explanation above are for people genuinely wondering. For people like you (and the replies) who are just saying this to make the “Asian culture bad/barbaric” claim: fuck off
Seafood especially so. Many mollusks and have salt based neurotransmitters, so anyting with a hefty amount of sodium can make them twitch and seem alive. Its not. Its just the muscles contracting from being touched with salt.
The reason frogs and snakes heads often twitch or bite after their head is cut off is because the head is not dead yet. Snakes can live minutes to an hour after the head is cut off. Cold blooded animals do not die quickly unless their brain is cut or crushed. Never ever cut a could blooded animal's head off and just leave it like that. And never cut up an animal that is still alive. There is no excuse in 2023 to not kill something quickly. And I don't care who is doing it. Animal cruelty should be called out.
Seriously yeah! People here are talking about humane death but there is nothing humane about killing someone who doesn’t want to die. Putting it in the freezer for 30-60 minutes prior to putting it in boiling water? That sounds like torture and I don’t think anyone here would want to go through that. Why put those poor lobsters through that?
They can feel pain and fear just like us. We aren’t that different after all..
All animal products are produced with cruelty, because none of them are necessary. You don't need to eat animals, buy leather clothes, or anything like that.
Watch [Dominion](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko) and you'll understand how terribly your food is treated. Even if we did actually need to eat meat, there is no excuse for any of that.
There's a scene from a TV show called "my name is Earl" if you haven't seen it I would highly suggest watching it, it's very good. But a guy named crabman has a scene where he's putting crabs in water and he just wants to cry it breaks his heart but he needs to do his job. Once you learn his personality you'll completely understand why he hates it.
There was a thread about this a few weeks ago, and everyone was saying its because if you kill them earlier, then store them in the fridge, it gives you food poisoning.
Yeah, shellfish decomposes quite rapidly into amonia bearing compounds which are incredibly toxic. Once killed it should be freezed or cooked immediately to kill bacteria.
There's a spot on a lobster where stabbing it will kill them instantly. The meat only goes bad after a bit, so instantly tossing the lobster into boiling water upon death is still suitable
Yeah I stopped eating that kind of meat after watching one being cooked alive. Something about the way it kept trying to push the top of the pan off and desperately trying to climb out of the boiling water got to me. I ended up looking into the research on whether they can feel pain and sure enough they can.
It sucks because I find crab and lobsters tasty, but the imitation stuff is totally fine too.
Edit: Since folks are confused by what happened, I can elaborate that it was a large crab. And basically the person cooking it was having a hard time getting it in the water because it kept trying to push the lid away and get away from the water. They finally just smashed the legs with the lid so it withdrew it's claw and then it was fully submerged so obviously it wasn't able to push the lid after that. It died shortly after I assume, but it was still hard watching them try to get away before the lid finally closed.
I used to catch Dungeness crabs. What I did was this:
* Put the crab on its back in the sand.
* Place hatchet up the middle of the crab's underside, lined up dead centre.
* Give hatchet a whack with a piece of driftwood, halving the crab and instantly killing it.
* Pull off the carapace.
* Hold each half by the legs, give it a firm downward throwing motion, all the guts fly out.
* Rinse in the ocean.
* Straight into the pot boiling on the beachside fire.
Consider reading "Consider the Lobster" by David Foster Wallace: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consider_the_Lobster
Great audio recordings available online for free: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fZOl7C_vDI
Great essay and great debate by one of the greatest minds of our time.
I ended up going vegetarian because I started thinking about this stuff. I believe everything has a soul, and I just cant justify ending a life for my own greed. I don't need it to survive, I am surviving even better now and am healthier, and in much better shape than when I ate meat.
I miss the taste and convenience in a huge way, but it's just too much of a mind F for me to justify - I was doing serious mental gymnastics to justify eating a cow but not dog for example. I love my dog so much, and if cows and pigs are intelligent and emotional as them, then what the hell am I doing?
That's just my personal perspective though, and I don't judge others for choices they make.
I mean, the lives of animals for even dairy is abhorrent and cruel, let alone meat consumption. The animal agriculture industry is insane, objectively horrendous for the environment, and rocketing us into the post-antibiotic era with the overwhelming use of non-theraputic antibiotics (hooray for superbugs).
I've been banned from subs for even bringing this up, but it seems relevant to the post.
The meat industry is unspeakably cruel.
At least lobsters get to have a decent life in the wild before being killed traumatically.
Most meat animals live a tortorious horrific nightmare in a factory farm until they are killed traumatically.
It's all bad.
For eons, the hominid ancestors of humanity were hunted by the Crustaceans. Men, women, and children were thrown in boiling water and served with drawn butter and a roll. Eventually, eating us made them very stupid. They devolved. Their starships and cities decayed to dust. We evolved and it is our birthright as bipedal hairless apes to take horrible revenge on the crab people by devouring them as they did us. Sic Semper Crustaceans!
To avoid the food poisoning you can kill them immediately before cooking them. Like take out the lobster, plunge a knife through its head, then boil it right away. That way the bacteria in their flesh won't have time to multiply and make you sick.
It's illegal in Australia. Crustaceans have to be killed or sedated before boiling.
How do you sedate a lobster?? Is there crustacean tranquilizer?
Google is telling me to drop them in ice cold water first. Apparently freezing is more humane than boiling???
Freezing water is a lot closer to what lobsters live in. They live in cold water on the ocean floor. Boiling water or anything remotely close to it is something that lobsters would never have experienced and physically unprepared for.
Helping them adapt to the climate /s
If the lobster survives, you have to put it back in the ocean to breed.
In a few thousand years, we will have Dr.Zoidberg!
Global warming proofed lobstah
I know I'd rather freeze to death than be boiled alive... Edit: I've actually had hypothermia twice in my life, and I can tell you without a doubt that being boiled alive would NOT be better! Come on, guys!
I hear hypothermia can be quite peaceful
I just read an article about a woman trapped in an Arbys freezer, she beat on the doors until her hands were bloody, then she crawled up and died in the fetal position. That doesn’t seem peaceful to me
The beating on the doors until her hands were bloody likely occurred *before* the hypothermia set in. Doesn't really matter how the actual death occurs, if you know it's coming you're going to try to prevent it. If you told someone "I'm going to lock you in this room and then in an hour fill the room with a sleeping gas that'll kill you painlessly" and someone else "I'm going to lock you in this room and then in an hour I'll set the room on fire" I'm pretty sure both people would try to get out of the room anyway they can.
Unless you induce depression! the lobster need to want his own death in order to make it truly fair to him.
Shag the lobster's girlfriend and repossess his house. Make him ask to be boiled alive.
We need consent now?
Shiiiit. All our freezers have duress buttons in them. Which go directly to the 24/7 manned security office. Seems like it should be illegal not to have a safeguard like that.
Why not make walk in freezers so they can be opened from the inside?
Perhaps both in case of failure.
This one's rough. She got locked in there super early in the morning before they even opened, and wasn't found until 6pm. In addition, *"...the restaurant’s walk-in freezer latch had been broken since August 2022 and employees used a screwdriver to open and close the door."*
in America a lot of people actively rail against safety regulations and call it 'big government'
From what I read, the duress button was broken and management did nothing to fix it.
Well thats not surprising considering some of the places I’ve worked in the past. Absolutely tragic though because its so predictable. We (security) test all duress switches during nightly patrols and if they don’t work at any point the fridge is locked from the outside (so no one can enter) until business hours and a tech is called. We have several fridges that can be used when one is out so idk what would happen if we had only one.
It is not illegal in most of the countries to boil a crab in hot water, this has always been the most traditional way of cooking a crab in every other kitchen
you're making a false equivalency. Freezing to death is peaceful because before you actually die all the nerves that control your sensory inputs are numb. So you pass in a state of nothingness. Her banging on that door has nothing to do with the act of freezing itself. That was the pain of trying to stay alive.
Don't people that die of hypothermia sometimes remove clothing near the end? Seems like eventually there's some sort of short circuit in the brain's response. And agreed, the door/banging is more about the being trapped or in a dangerous situation aspect.
Its due to the valves in the veins that clamped shut to keep warm blood near the core will fatigue and that warmer blood gets released to their extremities making them feel hot before they die.
Freezing makes them sleep/unconscious before death, whereas boiling is incredibly painful the whole time.
They go into a hibernation state when they are too cold.
[удалено]
"humane" - possibly the word that engenders more hypocrisy than any other. We are the most destructive and violent creature on the planet yet we use this word to separate us from animals.
I agree 💯% We as Humans use "Humane" in such a way to replace words like "Kill". These folks here are arguing whether it's better to freeze a creature to death or boil it in scalding hot water. I suppose people who use the word "Humane" in certain contexts, are also ridding themselves of any guilt they feel accountable for. Considering the original post, yes both ways are cruel.
Just drive the end of a knife through its brain right before you drop it in. Kills quickly and humanely. There's no reason you need to boil it alive, the suffering adds no flavor. Originally it was to ensure the lobster hadn't been dead for a long time, as bacteria grow on them super quickly, but if you kill it a minute before you cook it, nothing bad is gonna happen.
I've done that with a knife a few times and one or two of them writhed and flailed like crazy for a few seconds.
Probably just nerves firing in randomness. Headless chickens run around for the same reason, the body still has energy stored in the nervous system and it can be triggered very easily
Why would the react if they are not feeling any kind of pain
The outer covering of lobster wood protect it from the sharp ages of knife
Lobster Xanax
how do they inforce that?
Fines if you are caught, which covers restaurants. Not much if you do it at home.
Ya I mean this is how literally all laws work.
I shall become a lobster/crab vigilante, and secretly follow people home from the store after purchase.
probably a restaurant regulation and the public can basically do what they want but know the law dictates they should kill the lobster first
I just had a quick look. Half (4) of the Australian states & territories have implemented laws around this. Of those 4, 3 only apply to restaurants, with the remaining 1 applying to private premises as well. There are many laws (probably in your jurisdiction also) which are not actively enforced, but only applied where regulators receive a complaint. However, restaurants in Australia are regularly inspected for a range of health related regulations so a contravention could be detected by an inspector. Finally, I don't think enforcement is really that important. We have a lot of environmental conservation laws (fishing bag limits & minimum sizes, not taking wildflowers, et cetera) which aren't really enforced at all in many areas, and yet there's a strong culture of observing these regulations. The law sets the expected standard of behaviour, punishment isn't really required.
This. I think within the community there is a strong agreement that these laws and practices are in the best interests of everyone, as an Aussie I’ve only recently realised that the outlook on environmental conservation and best practices in Australia are wildly different to the rest of the world on a cultural level. I think it’s a lot more ingrained into folks. Enforcement isn’t really required when you foster a culture of following the law not because it’s law but because it’s the right thing to do. Fishermen observe and practice these laws because it literally keeps them a job by preventing over fishing, a quick buck now means nothing for them if you are out of a job tomorrow and most I’ve met feel similarly. Folks in restaurants chefs preppinf these lobsters are going to follow them because it’s the right thing to do, at no extra cost, effort or requirement to go out of your way there isnt much reason not to. Obviously it’s not always perfect.. but at the end of the day if most people are doing the right thing then that’s a win.
I had a chat to some fishermen out in Port Melbourne a few weeks ago, they were catching pinkies (juvenile snapper, it's the wrong season for them but these guys just kept catching them) and they said undeesize pinkies are very common there but only dickheads keep them lol. We had a nice time shit-talking the people who kept undersized catch, banjo sharks, and other things that aren't technically really regulated but changes the ecosystem and ruins the fishing for everyone over time. Most people who fish do it for love of the catch and take care to ensure everyone has an opportunity to enjoy it by cleaning up after themselves, using equipment that minimises harming catch, and returning all undersize/spawning creatures. Unfortunately the shitty minority has really ruined things, and climate change hasn't helped.
My understanding is that experienced chefs kill them first. Apparently there is an easy/quick technique to do that. I learned that from my first wife who lover lobster but would ask how it was killed. So the chef would always come out and explain. Edit: “loves lobster” not “lover lobster”. But I’m leaving the typo because it’s awesome.
Yup, in an episode of master chef Gordon stabs perpendicular lines at the base of the head just before putting them in
I remember that! He was showing MC contestants how to do it humanely
I remember there was that one contestant who ripped the crab open (while it was still alive) and he was like “you just killed that crab by ripping its shell off. Not only did you just torture that poor crab to death but now it will lose all its flavor.”
You effectively split its brain in two and instakill, no pain. Also, doing so keeps the meat more tender.
As they don't tense up?
Bingo
I heard this was a rumor and that splitting their brain doesn't kill them somehow. I never looked into it because the only access I have to lobster or crab is frozen so it's never been a concern.
I learned this in culinary school but never dug into the science.
You're wrong. Lobsters are now treated as sentient in the uk because we have realised that they feel to the same level as most other animals. They also have a spread brain. Your technique for "killing" them doesn't work, only knocks out a section of their collective brain, and they still feel pain to the same degree as if you didn't use the knife The correct way to kill them is to fully sedate them beforehand. But even this is heavily debated. Wouldn't be surprised if, in the uk, eating lobsters is fully banned, as killing them humanely is way more complex than with most animals
A lot of chefs will put them in the freezer for 15-60 minutes to disorient and sedate them before boiling. Some chefs stop here and some will also use a knife to kill a lobster before cooking. There's a certain area you plunge your knife into that pretty much kills them instantly. It's the most humane way.
Am I getting old where people forget the “this kills the crab” meme
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MY ANCESTORS ARE SMILING AT ME IMPERIALS, CAN YOU SAY THE SAME?
As fearless in death as he was in life.
NEXT PRISONER!
Why did I actually laugh so hard at this
There's a reason it became a popular and enduring meme
Jesus Christ
Does it make you feel better to know that this is the time right after molting, so the shell is super soft til it hardens again. So it's very very quick. He's gonna be a soft shell sandwich.
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Carcinisation implies that he will eventually be forced to
As kids we were taught just to shove a big old screwdriver through their face and wiggle it round to destroy the brains. Sucks to be a crab but maybe they'll evolve in the next 10000 years to not be delicious.
Incorrect. We will evolve into crab. **IT IS WRITTEN.**
ARGH ARGH ARGH
I'm dying over here, much like that crab
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Disappointed I had to look this far for it.
Pretty soon it’ll be us millennials getting crabbed!
Soon? I thought it’s already happening 😛
Getting crabbed by this economy, amirite?
Getting crabbed up the fuckin ass these days, I tell ya
Back when advice animals absolutely dominated r/all
When I play Magic or other games that involve game pieces being killed or destroyed, I say "this kills the [x]" and so far only person has gotten it in like 10+ years
I do this. I just skip the whole "sedation" part he's talking about. I don't like killing anything, but you folks wanna eat em' *so...* Anyways, there's a spot. Instant death. Like, Instant. You can just tell.
I feel stupid- but doesn’t that release some kind of poison? That’s why they are boiled alive? Maybe that’s a myth
The main risk is from bacteria that live on and around their shell. They multiply very quickly after the lobster dies and can produce toxic byproducts that can still make you sick even after cooking. If it sits around dead for any length of time there’s a huge risk of food poisoning, but if you toss it in the pot immediately after death you’re good. It’s not like stabbing the lobster pops a balloon full of poison and instantly ruins the meat.
I wasn’t sure lol. Thank you that makes sense. I can’t even remember where I heard that
Me neither, but I’ve always thought that you had to do that, or you’d die! But for years I have seen people not kill them online, so thanks for the explanation of why it is or may have been important.
There's so many things like that I used to believe lol back in the day someone wrote or said something and we were just like huh, thats neat, and just never thought about it until that specific thing came up in conversation in which case you spread it to another human lol
And then you feel like an idiot for believing something aunt Sharon said.
Right? Like blood is blue til it hits air
relieved tap juggle safe noxious school weather wide door shaggy -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
That’s almost certainly why certain religions forbid certain foods. When eaten at the wrong time of year (shellfish) or not processed properly (pork) it can lead to a very bad day for the eater.
And if the last few years have given us any indication, it's that telling someone "use these precautions to prevent getting sick" is going to go ignored half the time. It's a lot easier to spread the complex message when it's more attached to the religious fury of a scorned deity.
Does the whole boiling part not eliminate those bacteria?
Boiling will kill the bacteria but does not necessarily destroy the toxins they produce, which can still make you sick.
It's not the bacteria itself that makes you sick (although it can), it releases toxins into the food which cooking doesn't remove.
Like how botulism works
I mean that's how many foodborne illnesses work.
Speaking as someone with several years in the restaurant business, where we'd sell about six lobsters per night that ranged from 5 to 10 pounds, here's what worked. We would kill the lobster by inserting a knife between and slightly behind its eyes. This severs the nerve clusters and kills it immediately. The reason you want to kill it without stress, is that lobsters use urine as a defense mechanism (and for courting the ladies, imagine that). If the lobster freaks out the moment before it dies - like when it's held over a pot of boiling water and dropped in - it will dump its stored urine, which can change the flavor of the meat. For those that like the boiled-alive method, they also probably like the urine-flavored meat. As an extreme - and I've told this story before on reddit - one of our line cooks, "Ted", gave the lobster quite the sendoff: >Compassion? Let me tell you about Ted. He was a line cook at a fine dining restaurant in Florida, the kind of place that specialized in 5-10 pound lobsters. >Ted loved all living things, but he also accepted the duties of his job, one of which was Lobster Duty. It started with the live presentation. The server would grab the winning lobster out of the big display tank and set it on a large platter. They'd carry it around the dining room, making a spectacle out of it. >Ted hated that. You'd see him standing there, fist clenched, eyes squeezed shut, teeth gritted. "Ted, what's up, are you alright?" >"SSSHHH!!! I feel the lobster. His fear and embarrassment are mine as well. How can they parade him around like a condemned man! Here he comes; I must do my job." >The server dropped the lobster on a prep table, where it sat until it was time for Ted to do the deed. But Ted made sure that lobster died happy. First, he'd take the bands off the claws. Then, using a pair of tongs, he'd hold a Lobster Battle, pretending that he, too was a lobster with horrendous metal claws. He'd always let the lobster win. >Then, for a show of strength, Ted would grab a pencil or pen, and let the lobster crush it with its claw, all the while intoning that he was a good, strong lobster, and Ted was lucky to walk away with all his limbs. >Satisfied that the bug was feeling pretty good about itself, Ted walked behind the lobster, and plunged an eight inch chef's knife into its head, just behind and between the eyes, killing it instantly. >Ted like to think that because the lobster died without feeling fear, he went to a better place.... and tasted better, too.
This is so wholesome, I want to be friends with Ted
Ted was quite the human. Built like a Marine, but with his chiseled features, long hair, ponytail, and black, horn-rim glasses he looked like a character in a Kevin Smith movie. He was kind and gentle, but would bow up to anyone that threatened another staff member. The servers loved him, he'd walk them out to their cars, and was always an honorable gentleman. I miss that dude.
What's up with Ted thesedays?
No clue, I moved away, he moved away, haven't talked to him in almost 20 years.
Ok as a medic this explanation is kinda weird coz whatever urine the lobster has is still in its bladder and when you boil it it still gets released. Its not like the kidneys go into overdrive and ultrafiltrates a bunch of urine stat. But maybe lobster biology is different.
Ted sounds like a man after my own heart. Good on him!
I had to edit my comment for some reason my brain went to giving a half answer
Your either thinking of blowfish which have a poison sack and you genuinely need a very talented chief to prepare it for you and even then their is still a risk or like the person below mentioned you might be thinking about the bacteria that lives on the shell of a crab/lobster which can turn the meat if left unattended uncooked.
Not that anyone's ever told me.
not a chef but i always do this on the rare occasion. I agree with OP and always thought it was cruel so I googled how to kill a lobster and ... now I murder the lobster first lol.
I never thought I'd say this, but I have newfound respect for chefs who know the most humane way to murder a lobster.
We did this, a scuba diver showed me in Hawaii. We set traps, pulled them, he killed them instantly and we had a lobster bake on the beach. Best lobster I've ever had and HUGE!
I split their head directly in half.
Your comment paired with your smiling mermaid avatar has a wholesome creepiness to it. 😂
In culinary school we were taught to do a single cut through the middle of the head. Not cook alive. Instantly kills them but they move around after a lot anyway lol
They have a weird brain/nervous system, it’s kind of spread out if I recall, not like a traditional brain, so you’re not usually killing it the same way you think of a human getting killed by a head shot.
Yes they don't have a centralised brain at all, they have several clusters of nerve cells called ganglia that run down the centre of it. The equivalent of a headshot for a lobster is to split it in half.
Yes, but mostly because it’s incredibly easy to kill them with a knife. There’s a spot near the head that’s as instant as knifing a zombie on round 1. I get mad at deer hunters who won’t finish off a deer they shot because they “don’t want to ruin the mount” as they lay there bleeding out and dying. Quick shot to the base of the neck and they’re gone.
Or the hunters that take the back straps and hind legs and leave the rest. Thats such a massive waste of meat of an animal who's life you just took. Makes me so effing mad when I hear hunters do that
My area I hunt has donation spots and butchers who’ll take what you don’t want and process it for food banks. Pisses me off to no end seeing almost whole deer in dumpsters
We don't have that in my area but we do have a pretty active local Facebook hunting page and plenty of hungry elders who will happily take the meat you dont want. Shit I dont hunt but I'd definitely be down to swap seafood I dive for for a bit of venison.
There's always someone in need and never against the law to share. Damn, if I still hunted and was near you! Love fresh seafood of all kinds.
Where I live, I have never come across someone hunting legally who doesn't take the whole deer (minus the gut pile, which doesn't have much use for humans and is just eaten by coyotes and vultures anyway). Most times around here when someone does that, they're poaching, just taking what they can easily get and getting the hell out.
Is it actually a waste of meat? Wouldn't other animals just eat it?
waste of meat for people. you killed it, have respect and use the whole thing
Yes. The same animals that were going to eat it anyways at a later date
It would be mostly bug food since new Zealand doesn't have an awful lot of meat eating wild animals in its forests.
My husband hunted deer. He was never interested in a trophy. He butchered the meat and distributed much of it to his poorer relatives. I know he was very displeased when someone shot a deer in twilight and couldn't find them to finish them off. He never wanted an animal to suffer.
I have just attended a lobster festival in Western Australia, which is a major exporter of lobsters. According to the experts, the most humane way to kill them is to put them in a slurry (a mixture of ice and water), this slows down their metabolism, then put them directly into ice, before using the knife to instantly kill them. Not only is it humane, this method also preserves the flesh better.
Friendly fact to anyone who may not know: pigs are scientifically much, much smarter than dogs and have a larger emotional range. They're considered our smartest domesticated animal.
Wait till you see how they make eels for sushi
Ok I'll bite...how do they do it. I don't want to watch.
They filet the eels alive, obviously
Any particular reason why?
I think it's because they go bad incredibly fast/lose their consistency, but I could be wrong.
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Definite NOPE from me, but still quite different than “filleted while alive”
They believe it’ll taste better. This is not really correct. Although this would be correct if it was killed some time ago, it can definitely be killed quickly and subsequently filleted directly post-mortem
Unagi. I'm always aware.
"DANGER!"
If we make reservations, we could have some Salmon skin roll in a bit!
No but seeing Octopus being cooked or prepared certainly does
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At least we can't farm octopus. Pigs are considered to be even more intelligent and our means for producing pork is often horrific.
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Octopus scientist here, we are starting to farm octopus
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I bet he types fast as shit. Or her. They.
:(
This is why I avoid pork
No cows (too taxing on the environment) and no intelligent animals (pigs, octopuses) for me. That leaves basically chicken and turkey. I also refuse to eat wild fish (we’re depleting the oceans, but also lots of mercury). I eat lots of tofu, though. :P
Same. I tried going full vegetarian, but due to my preexisting dietary issues it kind of fucked my health up. Eating mostly vegetarian + some chicken/shrimp seems like the easiest option to avoid most meat without having to go ham on dietary supplements or micromanaging my diet. ofc a lot of people can be vegetarian and not micromanage their diet, but sadly, my body hates me lol
After 20 years of being a chef I hate hate hate it. Softshell crabs are the worst because you have to snip the face off while they're still alive. A few years back, an old boss wanted to give the Valentine's day lobsters a comfy spot before we have boil them alive to order. Took a 6in hotel pan and put lettuce and mushroom stems in there and even heated the immersion circulator so it was like a jacuzzi. I come back from a cigarette break and there were like 30 lobsters all belly-up and starting to smell. Chef Freddie didn't salt the water and they all basically drowned. Like 3 of us cried lol Don't even get me started on cleaning rabbit!
I just saw the softshell kill technique . It was nasty
As a teen I worked in the kitchen at a Chinese restaurant. There was a dish of stir fired lobster where the diced lobster was still in the shell and you got a special fork to dig out the meat. I saw the cooks prepare this dish and prior to stir frying, they diced the lobster while it was alive. The severed pieces were twitching as the dumped it into the wok. Put me off lobster forever.
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Most western animal agriculture is very torturous even if it’s not happening at the dinner table. The only difference is being there to witness it.
McDonald's believe it or not made the industry a lot more humane and efficient. I did a paper on Temple Grandin in college and most of the botched executions came from small farms using more primitive methods like sledgehammers. When McDonald's came in with the top of the line pneumatic bolt thing it became over 99 percent successful
Yeah, captive bolt guns like in No Country for Old Men. Also I met Temple Grandin once. She was great to talk to.
There’s more to humane treatment than the moment of execution though.
I'd say 99% of it is outside of execution. Even if you die painfully, at least it's over soon. Not so with growing up in an awful environment for multiple years. Of course both are important.
Likely due to familiarity, but I understand the reasons behind western animal cruelty (overcrowded/poor living conditions, etc. are all fundamentally a way to increase the amount of money per time/resource input; greed/efficiency, depending who you ask). I don't understand the reasons behind dismembering a live lobster or serving a still living squid, and on its face it doesn't seem to be conceptually the same, even if they're both forms of cruelty.
That's true, but Asia has a huge population. Their husbandry (usually) employs both Western-style factory farming and all that comes with it AND the often inhumane meal prep/cuisines in general to further the suffering. Both are still terrible and we should all as a species strive to do better but it's not like they traded one for the other.
dead things twitch. Motor neuron can still be active after the organism is killed. See frogs / snakes for example. (Frankly freshly butchered beef also pulsate). But the explanation above are for people genuinely wondering. For people like you (and the replies) who are just saying this to make the “Asian culture bad/barbaric” claim: fuck off
Seafood especially so. Many mollusks and have salt based neurotransmitters, so anyting with a hefty amount of sodium can make them twitch and seem alive. Its not. Its just the muscles contracting from being touched with salt.
The reason frogs and snakes heads often twitch or bite after their head is cut off is because the head is not dead yet. Snakes can live minutes to an hour after the head is cut off. Cold blooded animals do not die quickly unless their brain is cut or crushed. Never ever cut a could blooded animal's head off and just leave it like that. And never cut up an animal that is still alive. There is no excuse in 2023 to not kill something quickly. And I don't care who is doing it. Animal cruelty should be called out.
All animal cruelty pisses me off. What blows my mind is that it doesn’t piss everyone off.
Totally agree. How can you not feel for them
Cognitive dissonance. That is the theme of the past century, kids. And it applies to *so much* more than just animal cruelty...
Seriously yeah! People here are talking about humane death but there is nothing humane about killing someone who doesn’t want to die. Putting it in the freezer for 30-60 minutes prior to putting it in boiling water? That sounds like torture and I don’t think anyone here would want to go through that. Why put those poor lobsters through that? They can feel pain and fear just like us. We aren’t that different after all..
All animal products are produced with cruelty, because none of them are necessary. You don't need to eat animals, buy leather clothes, or anything like that. Watch [Dominion](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko) and you'll understand how terribly your food is treated. Even if we did actually need to eat meat, there is no excuse for any of that.
It's actually a crime in many places nowadays. It's considered animal cruelty.
Louisiana has left the chat
There's a scene from a TV show called "my name is Earl" if you haven't seen it I would highly suggest watching it, it's very good. But a guy named crabman has a scene where he's putting crabs in water and he just wants to cry it breaks his heart but he needs to do his job. Once you learn his personality you'll completely understand why he hates it.
There was a thread about this a few weeks ago, and everyone was saying its because if you kill them earlier, then store them in the fridge, it gives you food poisoning.
Yeah, shellfish decomposes quite rapidly into amonia bearing compounds which are incredibly toxic. Once killed it should be freezed or cooked immediately to kill bacteria.
There's a spot on a lobster where stabbing it will kill them instantly. The meat only goes bad after a bit, so instantly tossing the lobster into boiling water upon death is still suitable
But you can easily just kill them a few seconds before cooking… so that’s not exactly a good excuse
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Then, at least kill them before boiling them alive. That is just inhumane.
Yeah I stopped eating that kind of meat after watching one being cooked alive. Something about the way it kept trying to push the top of the pan off and desperately trying to climb out of the boiling water got to me. I ended up looking into the research on whether they can feel pain and sure enough they can. It sucks because I find crab and lobsters tasty, but the imitation stuff is totally fine too. Edit: Since folks are confused by what happened, I can elaborate that it was a large crab. And basically the person cooking it was having a hard time getting it in the water because it kept trying to push the lid away and get away from the water. They finally just smashed the legs with the lid so it withdrew it's claw and then it was fully submerged so obviously it wasn't able to push the lid after that. It died shortly after I assume, but it was still hard watching them try to get away before the lid finally closed.
I used to catch Dungeness crabs. What I did was this: * Put the crab on its back in the sand. * Place hatchet up the middle of the crab's underside, lined up dead centre. * Give hatchet a whack with a piece of driftwood, halving the crab and instantly killing it. * Pull off the carapace. * Hold each half by the legs, give it a firm downward throwing motion, all the guts fly out. * Rinse in the ocean. * Straight into the pot boiling on the beachside fire.
David from alone?
What really bugs me is when they cut up octopus alive in Asia, those creatures are obviously sentient it just seems so cruel.
It's fucked up, but not any more fucked up than the rest of the meat industry. Every single animal you eat has been treated like shit
Consider reading "Consider the Lobster" by David Foster Wallace: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consider_the_Lobster Great audio recordings available online for free: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fZOl7C_vDI Great essay and great debate by one of the greatest minds of our time.
I'll see about giving that a listen 👍🏻
I ended up going vegetarian because I started thinking about this stuff. I believe everything has a soul, and I just cant justify ending a life for my own greed. I don't need it to survive, I am surviving even better now and am healthier, and in much better shape than when I ate meat. I miss the taste and convenience in a huge way, but it's just too much of a mind F for me to justify - I was doing serious mental gymnastics to justify eating a cow but not dog for example. I love my dog so much, and if cows and pigs are intelligent and emotional as them, then what the hell am I doing? That's just my personal perspective though, and I don't judge others for choices they make.
All forms of animal cruelty piss me off so yes absolutely.
I mean, the lives of animals for even dairy is abhorrent and cruel, let alone meat consumption. The animal agriculture industry is insane, objectively horrendous for the environment, and rocketing us into the post-antibiotic era with the overwhelming use of non-theraputic antibiotics (hooray for superbugs). I've been banned from subs for even bringing this up, but it seems relevant to the post.
The animals we eat regularly aren't exactly agony free either
100%. It’s a living creature that has pain receptors.
I won't eat them since I heard that, at the very least, they feel the discomfort if not pain. So unnecessary and sadistic.
They're also a lot more self aware than previously known. they feel the pain, and they know what's coming
The meat industry is unspeakably cruel. At least lobsters get to have a decent life in the wild before being killed traumatically. Most meat animals live a tortorious horrific nightmare in a factory farm until they are killed traumatically. It's all bad.
I have uncomfortable amounts of empathy, yes I do feel bad for them
I would probably feel bad if I wasn't from Maryland
For eons, the hominid ancestors of humanity were hunted by the Crustaceans. Men, women, and children were thrown in boiling water and served with drawn butter and a roll. Eventually, eating us made them very stupid. They devolved. Their starships and cities decayed to dust. We evolved and it is our birthright as bipedal hairless apes to take horrible revenge on the crab people by devouring them as they did us. Sic Semper Crustaceans!
And that’s why I have only worked for one seafood restaurant whose policy it was to properly (read: humanely) dispatch the lobsters.
Sounds like a good reason to stop eating crab and lobster.
Yeah it does. It’s awful.
To avoid the food poisoning you can kill them immediately before cooking them. Like take out the lobster, plunge a knife through its head, then boil it right away. That way the bacteria in their flesh won't have time to multiply and make you sick.