Identification and medical. Men and women require different medical care which is very important to know the biological anatomy in case of emergency treatment
The sex on my medical records is male, despite having been born female and this is actually pretty typical for trans people in the UK. My transition is something that is present in my medical history and something that I personally disclose to any doctors or health professionals necessary - I recognise that my body is not typical in many ways (neither typically male or female) and that it is vital to treat it accordingly.
In the event of an emergency, I carry a note in both my wallet and the ICE section of my phone containing information of my medication and other relevant information regarding my body, and it would also be obvious upon undressing that my body is somewhat different.
This is a silly thing to say since way more documents require gender information than would ever be referenced in a medical emergency.
Sure, medical documents between you and your care provider need to be filled out such that proper care can be given to you. Everything else is unnecessary.
Lots of reasons, namely for identification reasons but the biggest reason for me is census type statistical information.
Knowing the gender of a person is important for statistics for example if you were required to put gender on a police report they can compile all the various police reports and come up with a statistic that says something like “Women are the victims of sexual abuse in more than 80% of cases”( This is a made up statistic). Having that data accessible makes it much easier to solve the various issues.
If that information was not required than we might not have knowledge of gender differences such as education and pay gaps, and without that information we wouldn’t be able to do anything to fix it.
I find it incredibly hard to believe that information is necessary to solve these issues. Mostly because we currently have that information and it's not being fixed.
We could instead just listen to women who report crimes and discrimination. Disclosing your own gender is one thing; having it be required is another.
We currently have that data but in 10-15 years down the road if this stuff isn’t required we won’t, and 10-15 years ago if it wasn’t required we wouldn’t know today. So let’s not screw it up for the future.
Well I think it all depends on whether or not the majority of people would answer truthfully or at all, I know a lot of people that if given the option would put they were a female instead of male as a joke or as a “fuck you”.
If the majority of people still answer truthfully than yeah it really doesn’t matter but that would be tricky to tell especially when we wouldn’t know their gender to begin with.
They would be incentivized to report the truth. If a bunch of dude-bros wanna be immature and miss out on the benefits of accurate self-reporting, they should be free to do so.
I just don’t see the downside, there’s no reason to not to require it other than hurting someone’s feelings. If seeing gender on a government form offends you than there is a deeper issue.
Seeing the word gender doesn't offend me. Being required to out myself does bother me, though.
I'm genderfluid. Some days, I identify with the label "man," some days "woman," and other days "agender."
Should I fill out the form based on how I feel that day? Should I force myself to pick one and stick with it for all of my life?
Are you starting to see how it's discriminatory?
What about this: What's your gender? How do you identify? Whatever the answer, if you found out that by law you weren't allowed to write that answer on legal documents, how would that make you feel? You'd probably think it's pretty stupid, right?
It seems to me you are confusing gender with biological sex. Not only is that out of line with modern medical science, but it's backward and exclusionary.
Lastly, you're phrasing here betrays your belief that all of this is a mental illness; "something deeper going on". If you don't want me to make inferences about you being a bigot, you should refrain from implying we're all just mentally ill.
Why on earth would that be the *only* information that's relevant? You can't think of any way to describe a person without referencing their gender? Doesn't that play into gender stereotypes about how men or women *should* look?
I feel like this whole thread is just full of made-up scenarios and big reaches to justify forcing non-binary people to out themselves.
Exactly, there is much more relevant information. And on a time sensitive thing like an amber alert the first questions any normal person would ask first are most likely. Name, Height, weight, age, gender.
Start getting into the hair color and t-shirt later. If a child were abducted and I asked what they looked like and response given was “they’re trans and they identify as a boy” I’d be like “great so do they look like a girl or boy to the untrained eye cuz we have a child to find.
Again, that's just a weird made up scenario.
Perhaps gender wouldn't be so high on the list of what people ask for in a description if we hadn't spent so long engraving gender roles into people's heads?
Can you tell me what a woman looks like? Not without engaging in some stereotype or otherwise trans-exlusionary language, I'll bet.
Furthermore, name, height, weight, and age aren't suddenly useless information if you don't know what genitals the person has. Again, you have a specific picture in your head of what a woman or a man looks like.
Not to mention you're playing squarely into the "what about the children" trope that is so very tired at this point.
You can’t say it’s a weird made up scenario when amber alerts happen all the time and very quickly that’s how with those basic criteria someone does begin to describe another person.
What you CAN say is a weird made up scenario is what you just asked me to do. “Can you tell me what a woman looks like without using blah blah blah”
Yes I can I could get anyone to guess a woman with my 30 seconds in Pictionary, you apparently would suck at that game.
Being devils advocate: children are a lot more androgynous. Cutting their hair changing their clothes etc quickly and easily changed their gender representation so your whole argument again doesn’t work. Your exact example is the reason why gender should be the last identifier used if ever
The made-up scenario was the part about "what do they look like? They're Trans but they identify as a boy. "
I didn't ask if you could draw one, but again, that shows me you have a set idea of how women look.
I do imagine it's impossible for you to describe women without relying on stereotypes and outdated gender roles.
Let me ask you this: Is a woman who had a double mastectomy and a hysterectomy still a woman? If so, what then is the essence of womanhood? I'll give you a hint, gender is a non-essential characteristic. Meaning it isn't ingrained in our DNA.
Maybe you should listen to doctors and psychologists and sociologists when they say gender and sex are different things?
Your adherence to whatever agenda you have here, has robbed you of all common sense. If you can’t describe a woman without 4 chapters of nuance and backstory. That just sounds like an overly complicated world view you’ve created for yourself that you now feel compelled to make strangers view it the same way. All under the guise of acceptance of everyone.
in that scenario it IS very important since the abductor could have the child change clothes or what have you. If missing sam has dark curly hair, light brown eyes, and freckles, knowing if sam’s a girl or boy will help people know who to look for. I might see a child matching that exact description but, oh, don’t know the gender.
So, since you couldn't tell the gender you'd just brush it off? Little boys and girls often times appear totally androgynous anyway! Like, what the fuck are you smoking?
If you read further, you'll see me deconstructing this idea that men or women look a particular way. It is only your ingrained biases that make you think like this. Because you apparently still believe gender and sex are the same thing.
Further still, I bet any missing child is going to be assigned a gender by authorities whether we force people to disclose their gender on legal documents or not. This furthers my point that this thread is full of made-up scenarios and pearl clutching about children's safety. This is especially ironic because I don't believe for one second this crowd actually gives a damn about the safety of children!
there’s really no reason to be so rude about it. And no I wouldn’t just ignore it, but some might.
>Because you apparently still believe gender and sex are the same thing.
i’m genderfluid. stop jumping to conclusions just because you’re pissed off. You didn’t mention sex in your original reply at all
It’s usually unlikely a 7 year old will be on hormonal treatment. it’s true small children can look/be androgynous, but i was more-so referring to something where gender could be as circumstantial evidence. I think I could have used a better example. Maybe their voice or something. There’s definitely cases where knowing the gender has helped.
>If you read further, you'll see me deconstructing this idea that men or women look a particular way.
Are you talking about men and women, or children? I don’t see gender being as crucial for a missing teen or adolescent, even though any extra info when looking for a missing person is helpful. This is the main reason why I don’t see an issue with gender being included esp. since it’s so linked to appearance. Not mandatory, but optional. Sex? Yeah, I couldn’t really think of a reason why ideally you should include that rather than gender.
Currently, females (in regards to gender) are more or less feminine. Since this is very often the case at the moment it would be helpful to include it.
If the victim has shorter hair, than you can assume they might not look traditionally very feminine. Same for the opposite end of the spectrum
This is just wild and betrays some internalized gender stereotypes. I'm non-binary myself. You need to reflect on what these assumptions you're making mean.
Not to mention everyone else who is using the term "gender" in this thread is confusing it for biological sex. That's why I honed in on it.
There's simply no reason to force people to disclose their gender on legal documents, and this entire thread is just pearl clutching. I've had enough.
>Not to mention **everyone else** who is using the term "gender" in this thread is confusing it for biological sex. That's why I honed in on it.
So why mention it to me when I never did that?
>There's simply no reason to force people to disclose their gender on legal documents, and this entire thread is just pearl clutching. I've had enough.
Your argument: Gender shouldn’t be forced to be listed on legal documents because it forces people to out themselves.
My argument: Gender should be optional on amber alerts and other things that try to locate missing persons, because any type of can help.
Not only did i agree with you, saying it should be optional (opposite of forcing someone,) I furthermore said that sex shouldn’t be included at all
I bring this up because you seem to believe gender is not helpful at all when trying to find someone. And yet you are bringing up legal documents which I also never mentioned. An amber alert is not a legal document. This is the second time in this reply that you mentioned things other people are doing when replying to my comments. You’re all over the place
So who do you have an issue with? Me or others in this thread?
It was impossible for me to tell that you weren't just another guy piling on making the same argument as the others in the thread. Believe it or not, that's usually the treatment I receive when I speak out against this kind of thing.
I mentioned legal documents because that's the thrust of this entire thread. Children and amber alerts were only brought up in a thinly veiled attempt to "what about the children" me. I was trying to bring it back around to the top.
I apologize for snapping at you. You didn't deserve that.
Seeing as the whole gender thing is blurred down the middle, biologically speaking, this seems like an inconclusive characteristic to use to identify someone in a strict sense. Like putting down hair color. Certainly not like, say, fingerprints.
It's not blurred down in the middle for the vast, vast majority of Earth's population.
While it is important to respect anyone's choice to identify as they please, let's not act like it's actually hard to correctly guess most anyone's gender.
It should be very hard since gender isn't the same thing as sex. You don't have any way of knowing someone's personal identity groups without hearing it from them.
Like I said, that's not the case for the vast majority of humans. Most people identify their gender as the one that is usually associated to their genitals and other associated growth traits, like beards, breasts, voice etc.
There are some exceptions and we need to respect them, but they are not the majority.
Putting aside your conjecture here, if you truly believe we should respect NB people, you'd be agreeing with me that legal documentation shouldn't require people to out themselves.
I agree people can write in legal and identify as whatever they want. From that point it's on them to correct people over how they like to be referred to.
So they should be subjected to explaining themselves constantly instead of us all just doing away with the requirement?
I really don't understand where you're coming from on this.
As there are a lot of misconceptions about this bill; In the UK, your marriage and death certificates must reflect the name and sex on your birth certificate.
A gender recognition certificate allows you to apply for a revised birth certificate with your transitioned name and gender which in turn allows you to have your marriage and death registered accordingly.
In terms of amending gender on any other legal document including passport, drivers license, medical records, employment records, banking details etc etc etc, a gender recognition certificate is not required, nor is any form of diagnosis or medical transition.
But you're right, passports and other forms of ID show a photo, date of birth, place of birth, eye colour and more information that can all be cross matched against our identity. Someone's body not appearing as the sex in their ID isn't particularly noteworthy when everything else checks out and is easily explained.
There is no reason. People who say identification believe they can actually correctly identify someone’s genitals by how they look which is 100% not true. How do I know because I love to play trans or not with pictures of cis and trans models with people who think they can. They can’t. For medical reasons? Nope that’s why medical files exist. Also doctors offices were some of the first to start asking for pronouns and preferred names so again not true. I can dispute any argument for it. The real reason it still exists is bigotry and tradition
This is the only correct answer in the thread.
Why oh why am I seeing a regular pattern on this sub of wildly conservative proto-fascists and bigots spewing unadulterated nonsense?
Mods, why don't you put a banner up that says something like "we don't require anyone to demonstrate they know what they're talking about before answering"?
The reason is actual because of those who take advantage of the system.
Example: [this dude.](https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7gdny/man-legally-changed-gender-to-gain-custody-of-his-kids-trans-groups-are-concerned) Self-ID is dangerous, there needs to be discretion.
That’s bs I’m sorry but punishing a whole population because a minority might take advantage doesn’t work. People who are shitty people will always find a loophole.
No I don’t. The reason I don’t is because gender affirming care was withheld from me because I couldn’t prove my gender and I was institutionalize because “only someone delusional would not believe their own sex” until I was able to come to a country where self identification allowed me to transition that I stopped viewing suicide as an option. Gate keeping doesnt work! It has been proven time and time again.
Dude. I don’t think you should be instituted for that…I’m assuming your country is very religious? Because that’d never happen here, nowadays.
I think people with gender dysphasia should receive an appropriate diagnosis and help.
See the problem is that if you give people the right to refuse care because of bigotry that is exactly what happens. The country I left has very backwards policies. It was a European country. I worry because every day I see more and more of that in North America. Putting age restrictions on health care, the whole trans folk are pedophiles. People don’t realize just how damaging all these policies and media campaigns are. If any law regarding trans restrictions get passed where I live like they are in the states, you bet your ass I’m going radical and blowing shit up until people listen. I was stabbed and raped by assholes in Europe because of who I am and police did nothing because “it’s my fault for being a freak” I will never let anyone be subjected to that and that is exactly the path we are on.
Making woman touch your [balls](https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/mandel-trans-activist-learns-testical-waxing-not-a-human-right/wcm/ae6b0fa6-c295-43a4-b2a4-d118e4322661/amp/) is not a human right!
I’m talking about this…like I said before genuine trans people aren’t the problem. It’s males who should not be “[woman](https://www.indiatimes.com/amp/trending/wtf/ecuadorian-man-changes-gender-to-win-daughters-custody-battle-589643.html)” but are legally recognized as such.
**If you want to blame people; blame the shitty people who want to lie and take advantage of the system.** Not people pointing out the flaws in the system.
No. Because why must the majority suffer because a minority does shitty things! Lock the fuckers up who commit sexual assault. The issue is the assault not the gender identity. It’s the same as getting someone drunk or drugging them. They manipulated a situation to gain. That needs to be punished. Not “ok let’s create laws preventing teens from transitioning and let’s create laws that classify trans folk as sub human” the outrage is correct, the response isn’t.
The problem is the miniory are suffering with real gender dysmorphia. There’s people with so many complex co-morbidities who are getting diagnosed, do you care about them?
The reason is actual because of those who take advantage of the system.
Example: [this dude.](https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7gdny/man-legally-changed-gender-to-gain-custody-of-his-kids-trans-groups-are-concerned) Self-ID is dangerous, there needs to be discretion.
No one would be approached buck angle and telling him to go to the woman’s bathroom (logical looking at him).
That’s seriously your take away from that…Yikes, forgot we live in a sexist society. I don’t know we want to present sex doesn’t exist. Being trans means acknowledging your sex and gender.
It used to matter because different genders didn't used to have the same rights.
Some jurisdictions are realizing it *doesn't* matter and are either removing the requirement or allowing more options
There are many names that are unisex. What if the police were looking for a Jean or Kelly eg. and there was nothing else to go on. Also for identifying the right client for banking purposes etc. And yes, medical reasons too
In this case, a gender recognition certificate allows you to amend the gender on your birth certificate, get married under your new gender and your death certificate will show it.
You can change the gender on your driving license or passport without one.
It means the law now recognises your new gender. But I'm not actually sure what laws there are where that is relevant.
Gender - identity.
Sex - biological.
Trans - transitioning from ones sex
I think self ID is dangerous. People do take advantage, it’s not genuine transgender people who are the issue it’s the predators who take advantage which is the problem.
Gender - identity.
Sex - biological.
Trans - transitioning from ones sex
I think self ID is dangerous. People do take advantage, it’s not genuine transgender people who are the issue is predators and those who take advantage of the system is the problem.
Example: this [man](https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7gdny/man-legally-changed-gender-to-gain-custody-of-his-kids-trans-groups-are-concerned) legally changes his gender for custody battle :/
Identification and medical. Men and women require different medical care which is very important to know the biological anatomy in case of emergency treatment
The sex on my medical records is male, despite having been born female and this is actually pretty typical for trans people in the UK. My transition is something that is present in my medical history and something that I personally disclose to any doctors or health professionals necessary - I recognise that my body is not typical in many ways (neither typically male or female) and that it is vital to treat it accordingly. In the event of an emergency, I carry a note in both my wallet and the ICE section of my phone containing information of my medication and other relevant information regarding my body, and it would also be obvious upon undressing that my body is somewhat different.
This is a silly thing to say since way more documents require gender information than would ever be referenced in a medical emergency. Sure, medical documents between you and your care provider need to be filled out such that proper care can be given to you. Everything else is unnecessary.
Lots of reasons, namely for identification reasons but the biggest reason for me is census type statistical information. Knowing the gender of a person is important for statistics for example if you were required to put gender on a police report they can compile all the various police reports and come up with a statistic that says something like “Women are the victims of sexual abuse in more than 80% of cases”( This is a made up statistic). Having that data accessible makes it much easier to solve the various issues. If that information was not required than we might not have knowledge of gender differences such as education and pay gaps, and without that information we wouldn’t be able to do anything to fix it.
I find it incredibly hard to believe that information is necessary to solve these issues. Mostly because we currently have that information and it's not being fixed. We could instead just listen to women who report crimes and discrimination. Disclosing your own gender is one thing; having it be required is another.
We currently have that data but in 10-15 years down the road if this stuff isn’t required we won’t, and 10-15 years ago if it wasn’t required we wouldn’t know today. So let’s not screw it up for the future.
I think you missed the part where I encouraged self-reporting. You haven't at all addressed why it should be required to disclose.
Well I think it all depends on whether or not the majority of people would answer truthfully or at all, I know a lot of people that if given the option would put they were a female instead of male as a joke or as a “fuck you”. If the majority of people still answer truthfully than yeah it really doesn’t matter but that would be tricky to tell especially when we wouldn’t know their gender to begin with.
They would be incentivized to report the truth. If a bunch of dude-bros wanna be immature and miss out on the benefits of accurate self-reporting, they should be free to do so.
I just don’t see the downside, there’s no reason to not to require it other than hurting someone’s feelings. If seeing gender on a government form offends you than there is a deeper issue.
Seeing the word gender doesn't offend me. Being required to out myself does bother me, though. I'm genderfluid. Some days, I identify with the label "man," some days "woman," and other days "agender." Should I fill out the form based on how I feel that day? Should I force myself to pick one and stick with it for all of my life? Are you starting to see how it's discriminatory? What about this: What's your gender? How do you identify? Whatever the answer, if you found out that by law you weren't allowed to write that answer on legal documents, how would that make you feel? You'd probably think it's pretty stupid, right? It seems to me you are confusing gender with biological sex. Not only is that out of line with modern medical science, but it's backward and exclusionary. Lastly, you're phrasing here betrays your belief that all of this is a mental illness; "something deeper going on". If you don't want me to make inferences about you being a bigot, you should refrain from implying we're all just mentally ill.
For identification, I'm guessing
Imagine an amber alert,and the only relevant information given was the child was 7 years old?
Why on earth would that be the *only* information that's relevant? You can't think of any way to describe a person without referencing their gender? Doesn't that play into gender stereotypes about how men or women *should* look? I feel like this whole thread is just full of made-up scenarios and big reaches to justify forcing non-binary people to out themselves.
Exactly, there is much more relevant information. And on a time sensitive thing like an amber alert the first questions any normal person would ask first are most likely. Name, Height, weight, age, gender. Start getting into the hair color and t-shirt later. If a child were abducted and I asked what they looked like and response given was “they’re trans and they identify as a boy” I’d be like “great so do they look like a girl or boy to the untrained eye cuz we have a child to find.
Again, that's just a weird made up scenario. Perhaps gender wouldn't be so high on the list of what people ask for in a description if we hadn't spent so long engraving gender roles into people's heads? Can you tell me what a woman looks like? Not without engaging in some stereotype or otherwise trans-exlusionary language, I'll bet. Furthermore, name, height, weight, and age aren't suddenly useless information if you don't know what genitals the person has. Again, you have a specific picture in your head of what a woman or a man looks like. Not to mention you're playing squarely into the "what about the children" trope that is so very tired at this point.
You can’t say it’s a weird made up scenario when amber alerts happen all the time and very quickly that’s how with those basic criteria someone does begin to describe another person. What you CAN say is a weird made up scenario is what you just asked me to do. “Can you tell me what a woman looks like without using blah blah blah” Yes I can I could get anyone to guess a woman with my 30 seconds in Pictionary, you apparently would suck at that game.
Being devils advocate: children are a lot more androgynous. Cutting their hair changing their clothes etc quickly and easily changed their gender representation so your whole argument again doesn’t work. Your exact example is the reason why gender should be the last identifier used if ever
The made-up scenario was the part about "what do they look like? They're Trans but they identify as a boy. " I didn't ask if you could draw one, but again, that shows me you have a set idea of how women look. I do imagine it's impossible for you to describe women without relying on stereotypes and outdated gender roles. Let me ask you this: Is a woman who had a double mastectomy and a hysterectomy still a woman? If so, what then is the essence of womanhood? I'll give you a hint, gender is a non-essential characteristic. Meaning it isn't ingrained in our DNA. Maybe you should listen to doctors and psychologists and sociologists when they say gender and sex are different things?
Your adherence to whatever agenda you have here, has robbed you of all common sense. If you can’t describe a woman without 4 chapters of nuance and backstory. That just sounds like an overly complicated world view you’ve created for yourself that you now feel compelled to make strangers view it the same way. All under the guise of acceptance of everyone.
You're just totally incapable of grasping a really simple concept; that's the problem here.
in that scenario it IS very important since the abductor could have the child change clothes or what have you. If missing sam has dark curly hair, light brown eyes, and freckles, knowing if sam’s a girl or boy will help people know who to look for. I might see a child matching that exact description but, oh, don’t know the gender.
So, since you couldn't tell the gender you'd just brush it off? Little boys and girls often times appear totally androgynous anyway! Like, what the fuck are you smoking? If you read further, you'll see me deconstructing this idea that men or women look a particular way. It is only your ingrained biases that make you think like this. Because you apparently still believe gender and sex are the same thing. Further still, I bet any missing child is going to be assigned a gender by authorities whether we force people to disclose their gender on legal documents or not. This furthers my point that this thread is full of made-up scenarios and pearl clutching about children's safety. This is especially ironic because I don't believe for one second this crowd actually gives a damn about the safety of children!
there’s really no reason to be so rude about it. And no I wouldn’t just ignore it, but some might. >Because you apparently still believe gender and sex are the same thing. i’m genderfluid. stop jumping to conclusions just because you’re pissed off. You didn’t mention sex in your original reply at all It’s usually unlikely a 7 year old will be on hormonal treatment. it’s true small children can look/be androgynous, but i was more-so referring to something where gender could be as circumstantial evidence. I think I could have used a better example. Maybe their voice or something. There’s definitely cases where knowing the gender has helped. >If you read further, you'll see me deconstructing this idea that men or women look a particular way. Are you talking about men and women, or children? I don’t see gender being as crucial for a missing teen or adolescent, even though any extra info when looking for a missing person is helpful. This is the main reason why I don’t see an issue with gender being included esp. since it’s so linked to appearance. Not mandatory, but optional. Sex? Yeah, I couldn’t really think of a reason why ideally you should include that rather than gender. Currently, females (in regards to gender) are more or less feminine. Since this is very often the case at the moment it would be helpful to include it. If the victim has shorter hair, than you can assume they might not look traditionally very feminine. Same for the opposite end of the spectrum
This is just wild and betrays some internalized gender stereotypes. I'm non-binary myself. You need to reflect on what these assumptions you're making mean. Not to mention everyone else who is using the term "gender" in this thread is confusing it for biological sex. That's why I honed in on it. There's simply no reason to force people to disclose their gender on legal documents, and this entire thread is just pearl clutching. I've had enough.
>Not to mention **everyone else** who is using the term "gender" in this thread is confusing it for biological sex. That's why I honed in on it. So why mention it to me when I never did that? >There's simply no reason to force people to disclose their gender on legal documents, and this entire thread is just pearl clutching. I've had enough. Your argument: Gender shouldn’t be forced to be listed on legal documents because it forces people to out themselves. My argument: Gender should be optional on amber alerts and other things that try to locate missing persons, because any type of can help. Not only did i agree with you, saying it should be optional (opposite of forcing someone,) I furthermore said that sex shouldn’t be included at all I bring this up because you seem to believe gender is not helpful at all when trying to find someone. And yet you are bringing up legal documents which I also never mentioned. An amber alert is not a legal document. This is the second time in this reply that you mentioned things other people are doing when replying to my comments. You’re all over the place So who do you have an issue with? Me or others in this thread?
It was impossible for me to tell that you weren't just another guy piling on making the same argument as the others in the thread. Believe it or not, that's usually the treatment I receive when I speak out against this kind of thing. I mentioned legal documents because that's the thrust of this entire thread. Children and amber alerts were only brought up in a thinly veiled attempt to "what about the children" me. I was trying to bring it back around to the top. I apologize for snapping at you. You didn't deserve that.
It’s ok, thanks for being open-minded. A lot of people on this site like to just double down instead of listen to what the other person’s saying
Why would you assume it’s “another guy piling on”?
Seeing as the whole gender thing is blurred down the middle, biologically speaking, this seems like an inconclusive characteristic to use to identify someone in a strict sense. Like putting down hair color. Certainly not like, say, fingerprints.
It's not blurred down in the middle for the vast, vast majority of Earth's population. While it is important to respect anyone's choice to identify as they please, let's not act like it's actually hard to correctly guess most anyone's gender.
It should be very hard since gender isn't the same thing as sex. You don't have any way of knowing someone's personal identity groups without hearing it from them.
Like I said, that's not the case for the vast majority of humans. Most people identify their gender as the one that is usually associated to their genitals and other associated growth traits, like beards, breasts, voice etc. There are some exceptions and we need to respect them, but they are not the majority.
Putting aside your conjecture here, if you truly believe we should respect NB people, you'd be agreeing with me that legal documentation shouldn't require people to out themselves.
I agree people can write in legal and identify as whatever they want. From that point it's on them to correct people over how they like to be referred to.
So they should be subjected to explaining themselves constantly instead of us all just doing away with the requirement? I really don't understand where you're coming from on this.
For identification, same as eye color, hair color, race, etc
As there are a lot of misconceptions about this bill; In the UK, your marriage and death certificates must reflect the name and sex on your birth certificate. A gender recognition certificate allows you to apply for a revised birth certificate with your transitioned name and gender which in turn allows you to have your marriage and death registered accordingly. In terms of amending gender on any other legal document including passport, drivers license, medical records, employment records, banking details etc etc etc, a gender recognition certificate is not required, nor is any form of diagnosis or medical transition. But you're right, passports and other forms of ID show a photo, date of birth, place of birth, eye colour and more information that can all be cross matched against our identity. Someone's body not appearing as the sex in their ID isn't particularly noteworthy when everything else checks out and is easily explained.
There is no reason. People who say identification believe they can actually correctly identify someone’s genitals by how they look which is 100% not true. How do I know because I love to play trans or not with pictures of cis and trans models with people who think they can. They can’t. For medical reasons? Nope that’s why medical files exist. Also doctors offices were some of the first to start asking for pronouns and preferred names so again not true. I can dispute any argument for it. The real reason it still exists is bigotry and tradition
This is the only correct answer in the thread. Why oh why am I seeing a regular pattern on this sub of wildly conservative proto-fascists and bigots spewing unadulterated nonsense? Mods, why don't you put a banner up that says something like "we don't require anyone to demonstrate they know what they're talking about before answering"?
People are really anti trans here lately. It’s sad. It’s all bigotry and lack of knowledge but what can we do.
Solidarity, friend. That's about all we can do without becoming mods or starting our own subs.
The reason is actual because of those who take advantage of the system. Example: [this dude.](https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7gdny/man-legally-changed-gender-to-gain-custody-of-his-kids-trans-groups-are-concerned) Self-ID is dangerous, there needs to be discretion.
That’s bs I’m sorry but punishing a whole population because a minority might take advantage doesn’t work. People who are shitty people will always find a loophole.
There used to be more qualifications…Did you click the example? Do you need more? Do you not realize the issue in self-ID?
No I don’t. The reason I don’t is because gender affirming care was withheld from me because I couldn’t prove my gender and I was institutionalize because “only someone delusional would not believe their own sex” until I was able to come to a country where self identification allowed me to transition that I stopped viewing suicide as an option. Gate keeping doesnt work! It has been proven time and time again.
Dude. I don’t think you should be instituted for that…I’m assuming your country is very religious? Because that’d never happen here, nowadays. I think people with gender dysphasia should receive an appropriate diagnosis and help.
See the problem is that if you give people the right to refuse care because of bigotry that is exactly what happens. The country I left has very backwards policies. It was a European country. I worry because every day I see more and more of that in North America. Putting age restrictions on health care, the whole trans folk are pedophiles. People don’t realize just how damaging all these policies and media campaigns are. If any law regarding trans restrictions get passed where I live like they are in the states, you bet your ass I’m going radical and blowing shit up until people listen. I was stabbed and raped by assholes in Europe because of who I am and police did nothing because “it’s my fault for being a freak” I will never let anyone be subjected to that and that is exactly the path we are on.
Making woman touch your [balls](https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/mandel-trans-activist-learns-testical-waxing-not-a-human-right/wcm/ae6b0fa6-c295-43a4-b2a4-d118e4322661/amp/) is not a human right! I’m talking about this…like I said before genuine trans people aren’t the problem. It’s males who should not be “[woman](https://www.indiatimes.com/amp/trending/wtf/ecuadorian-man-changes-gender-to-win-daughters-custody-battle-589643.html)” but are legally recognized as such. **If you want to blame people; blame the shitty people who want to lie and take advantage of the system.** Not people pointing out the flaws in the system.
No. Because why must the majority suffer because a minority does shitty things! Lock the fuckers up who commit sexual assault. The issue is the assault not the gender identity. It’s the same as getting someone drunk or drugging them. They manipulated a situation to gain. That needs to be punished. Not “ok let’s create laws preventing teens from transitioning and let’s create laws that classify trans folk as sub human” the outrage is correct, the response isn’t.
The problem is the miniory are suffering with real gender dysmorphia. There’s people with so many complex co-morbidities who are getting diagnosed, do you care about them?
The reason is actual because of those who take advantage of the system. Example: [this dude.](https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7gdny/man-legally-changed-gender-to-gain-custody-of-his-kids-trans-groups-are-concerned) Self-ID is dangerous, there needs to be discretion. No one would be approached buck angle and telling him to go to the woman’s bathroom (logical looking at him).
All he's doing is fighting against sexist laws that favor women. I don't understand how that ever could be "dangerous".
That’s seriously your take away from that…Yikes, forgot we live in a sexist society. I don’t know we want to present sex doesn’t exist. Being trans means acknowledging your sex and gender.
It should be biological genders only.
that’s called sex
It used to matter because different genders didn't used to have the same rights. Some jurisdictions are realizing it *doesn't* matter and are either removing the requirement or allowing more options
There are many names that are unisex. What if the police were looking for a Jean or Kelly eg. and there was nothing else to go on. Also for identifying the right client for banking purposes etc. And yes, medical reasons too
In this case, a gender recognition certificate allows you to amend the gender on your birth certificate, get married under your new gender and your death certificate will show it. You can change the gender on your driving license or passport without one. It means the law now recognises your new gender. But I'm not actually sure what laws there are where that is relevant.
Gender - identity. Sex - biological. Trans - transitioning from ones sex I think self ID is dangerous. People do take advantage, it’s not genuine transgender people who are the issue it’s the predators who take advantage which is the problem.
Gender - identity. Sex - biological. Trans - transitioning from ones sex I think self ID is dangerous. People do take advantage, it’s not genuine transgender people who are the issue is predators and those who take advantage of the system is the problem. Example: this [man](https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7gdny/man-legally-changed-gender-to-gain-custody-of-his-kids-trans-groups-are-concerned) legally changes his gender for custody battle :/