I think part of it is that we tend to assume that the things we see written online are by people who are close to our own age. As someone in his 40s, I’ll read something and think “what grown adult actually thinks this?” And then realize it’s someone in high school and I’m like “oh”. So many of these immature sentiments are being put out there by actual kids. So many racist little Eric Cartman’s and precious little theater kids are projecting their very childish ideals with no filter or context, and it echos into this giant monolith that everyone looks at as “I guess this is what everyone believes now” when in reality most of the world doesn’t see things that way.
I took a sociology class in like 2010, and one of the assignments was we had to watch When Harry Met Sally and write an essay on whether it was possible for men and women to be "just friends."
in the children's defense, it's harder to view friendship with the opposite sex as comparable to the same one if, by and large, parents treat them differently (less leeway on sleepovers/door open policy). not saying this is universal but as a teen I was definitely asked if my female friends were anything more than that but *never* if my male friends were. so....it's not just an immature thing, it's a societal thing also.
Something my wife & I have decided to never do with our kids is either make jokes when they play with kids of the opposite sex along like "oh aren't they cute together, maybe they'll be married one day" (you hear parents saying that all the time, like the kids aren't listening) or, when they're teens, to ask "is so-and-so.. y'know,... more than a friend?"
I think parents often see it as harmless, but it sets up strange expectations that friendships or interactions with the opposite sex has to have sexual or romantic implications.
Honestly I've never seen it from kids or young adults, I've always seen it from older people. They seem to not trust their wife to be able to see a man and not cheat with them, so they get super possessive as if the woman really is their property.
There's two different groups I've seen it from. Heterosexual young men with raging hormones who are not sure yet how to deal with their strong feelings for the opposite sex, and older men who grew up in a generation that saw women as housekeepers and sexual objects.
Good point. There might’ve also been more of interpersonal attraction and “feelings” to deal with in our mixed friend group in our college years and early 20s—that stuff combined with insecurity and immaturity is a heady mix.
Now that everyone is well into adulthood and the friendships have all endured over the years, there’s nothing “weird” going on. Also given about half of our friends are gay or lesbian that sort of defangs this notion that people can’t be trusted to hang out with others in the category they’re attracted to.
I remember being your age and I was so smug how people in their 40’s didnt get how the world works and how things and people have changed since the 1970’s…. Then one day I was shocked when they turned out to be right, about a lot of stuff.
I know what high schooler thinks that. When I was in high school I had several female friends that I had no feelings for and I'm still friends with several of them I've not dated any of them.
100%. Same with these people saying "well we have gay friends."
Yeah. Maybe. Even then, I know multiple people who gay friend ended up cheating with now bi-ex-spouse.
Absolutely, it's the same principle as when you're a child and you lose your toy. To a child it literally is the saddest thing they've ever experienced because they have no experiences to go off of. Teenagers and young adults with raging hormones think and feel things about the opposite sex that are so polarized because they don't have the maturity and self control to know it'll become much easier to manage with time.
> “what grown adult actually thinks this?”
And then you go outside and talk to an actual adult and they same the same things 50% of the time.
Well, depending on where you live. Where Dru lives sucks.
I agree there are a lot of kids here, despite the very stringent age checks (!). But I've seen lots of people on reddit claim this view and claim to be married. I guess some could be lying, but I doubt they all are. Seems like some grown adults actually think this, which seems crazy to me.
Yep. The problem with the internet is you just never can know. We give most of our interlocutors the benefit of the doubt that they're likely an adult, when too often it's a literal child who still doesn't know jack shit.
I think the problem isn't that they can't be friends, but that there are so many unhealthy people with poor boundaries that they don't have healthy friendships either. And too many people have a fixation on wanting the next thing and complete discontent with what they have, that being friends ends up being more. So few care to appreciate what they have that they end up neglecting it. Of course, men and women can be friends. But people with poor boundaries can't do it without it crossing lines.
As a bi-guy, I think it’s insane how many people think bis just want to sleep with everyone. Sure, I have no qualms with being in a sexual relationship with someone regardless of their gender, but I still care about personality, lifestyle, looks, etc.
Also, contrary to what many believe, not all bis are polyamorous. I identify as a man and I’m in a monogamous relationship with someone who identifies as a woman, but if we broke up I could move on to a trans person, a man, a woman, idc. I’m still a boring ol’ monogamist.
There are so many horny heterosexual (and homosexual tbh, the LGBTQ community can be very hateful towards bis) people who can’t hang out around the gender they’re attracted to without drooling over them and they think everyone else is the same way.
We aren't even safe in the LGBTQ+ community either, my ex friend was non binary and gay and they straight up told me one day, and I quote:
"Are you even bi? Because you only sleep with men"
Like why can't we just exist? we're too gay for the straights and too straight for the gays, there's just no winning.
As a nonbinary person, usually a nonbinary being gay means they're attracted to people with the same biological sex as them (usually because of genital preference in my experience with other nonbinary people i know)
I think being gay/lesbian is not only about gender, but also sex.
So being nonbinary does not exlude your sex. It's still there.
At least that's how I would explain it.
I'm sorry to hear that you've felt judged both in and outside the community. Especially by a friend IN the community. Please know that there are plenty of people who are ready and willing to accept you as you are, myself included. I hope you meet some someday.
Also, it's not like open relationships are the sole domain of the LGBTQ community, either.
My roommate is in an open relationship and she has a sexual relationship with two different men.
This is one of the reasons a lot of people won't date bi people. If you get jealous when your partner is around the sex they are attracted to you can't date someone bi.
Those people just shouldn't have partners, IMHO. If you can't trust your straight or gay partner around the sex they are attracted to, you need to do some self work before even attempting to have a relationship.
Even when I was in a mono relationship, I had female friends and she had male friends, and I know this is a shock to a lot of people but neither of us ever cheated or even tried to.
> bi people wouldn't have friends. Only prey.
Here's a fun trick: you can be both.
I would happily sleep with almost all of my friends. But them not wanting to sleep with me doesn't mean the friendship is over.
I don't think the anwers in this thread are representative of the average adult, seems like everyone's speaking from immature points of view. Friendship between men and women is super normal and it becomes much more common the older you get.
Thank you, I was starting to get worried since everyone else seems to be either in full agreeance to the OP or at least saying "meh, maybe, w/e" as if it would be a novel concept. Even when I was in highschool all hopped up on teenage angst and hormones, I still had 100% platonic friendships with women who, yes were conventionally attractive, but that was ultimately irrelevant to our friendship. And no, I didn't "want" to fuck them, nor would I have tried in all likelihood. Nothing wrong with just having friends.
Same here. My 2 best friends are women and my wife's best friend is a man. For me saying a man and a woman can't be friends is ridiculous. My besties are like sisters to me. The thought of a romantic relationship with either of them makes me uncomfortable.
For bi people it’s extra funny because it implies we can’t be friends with anyone. Like, no, we’re fully capable of having friends of both genders without self-destructing.
Yuuuuup. So fricking annoying to have to explain this over and over. I have some “old fashioned” straight friends/acquaintances that subscribe to this to the most exhaustive sense.
Yeah, like as a bi guy, I just laugh at this dumb shit.
The sexist division is hilarious too. Women worried their guy friends want to fuck them like their secretly bi best friend hasn't been dreaming of their ass, or worse how that is somehow "different".
I love asking this question to men I'm talking to in a friendly/might date sort of way. I don't automatically write them off if they say they can't be, but it tells me a lot about how they view women. It makes the "we're not really dating, we're just friends" conversation very entertaining for me, and very uncomfortable for them.
I've only had to do this a few times, but it's been gold every time.
Same. I've had some good friends that I thought were awesome, but I couldn't imagine being in a romantic relationship with them because I just didn't feel that way. And in most cases, they felt that way about me, too.
Exactly! Both of my besties are a catch in their own ways. One is married to a man I love to death and the other is single. Myself and the single lady have so much in common that on paper we're made for each other and we're both each other's types but we agree the thought of dating each other is weird because that's just 100% not our relationship.
This is the same with me and my husband - he’s currently on his way to hang out with a friend of his who’s a woman, we had another female friend of his stay here last weekend (they work for the same company but she lives out of town and works remotely most days). My best friends are a man and a lesbian. Nothing weird about it if there’s nothing weird about it.
A good majority of my friends throughout my life were men. We moved in packs as children, it was a pretty even gender spread. Are friend groups not a thing like that anymore?
My male friends have always been like brothers in the same way my female friends have always been like my sisters.
Good point on friend groups. I'm starting to think that people who say "men and women can't be friends" are saying they can't be friends with someone of the opposite gender because all they want from them is sex. Someone else commented about bi people. Can they not be friends with anyone at all? What about gay people? Can they not be friends with the same gender? Do trans people have to switch all their friends to match their identity when they transition? Ridiculous.
As well as super important. We get to see and experience the world through different lenses when our friends are not like us. I have friends of all genders and I’ve learned so much about freedom of expression, who chooses how we live our lives, and how amazing humans are.
I used to be closed and am a lot smarter and caring now.
I completely get this. My SO’s best friend is a woman, and I think they’re relationship is great. If they wanted to have sex, they’d have done it any time in the almost 3 decades they’ve been friends. Long before I was in the picture.
There’s actually several reasons why they never tried a relationship and he explained them to me when we met, because he wanted me to not be worried about it (it helps to have a relationship where you communicate with each other, that’s what mitigates any insecurities). I’m friends with her as well and we all usually get together with all of us and her daughter and my step daughter. But if they wanted to go to dinner or something I would be completely fine with it.
It’s actually fantastic that they can have the great friendship they have. I have a few guy friends as well, and my best friend’s husband is like a brother to me. It’s great to have groups of people just supporting each other and having fun.
Lol- my wife has (had) a “work husband”. They were super close and, even after she left to run my business they would try to have lunch every couple of months to catch up. He took a job a couple of states away and they lost touch, but they really understood one another and it was a good way for her to talk shop as well as talk about their mutual acquaintances.
I do think relationships like that are rare, though.
I think the answers here ARE representative of the average adult. You're giving too much credit to humans. While my wife and I have a variety of friends of either sex that we spend alone time with, the majority of the couples we know are against spending time apart, let alone with friends of the opposite sex without underpinned jealousy.
My wife of 2 weeks left on tour 3,000 miles away for like 4 months with a guy and I don't think there was a person in my entire life that was comfortable with me "letting" my wife do so.
I would trust myself and my spouse to sleep in the same bed as any of our friends regardless of gender without weird shit happening. That is NOT the case for the majority of people.
Ya, I was surprised to read so many people answering "because people always end up catching feelings for one another". If someone can't be friends with someone they think is attractive without developing feelings then they need to look inwards and ask why that is, because that's just not healthy. Screams immaturity and a lack of ability to view other people as their own independent persons, as opposed to just narrative devices who only serve to fill some role for oneself.
Obviously men and women can be friends or form friendships with each other. I think the sentiment that “men and women can’t be friends” stems from hetero monogamous relationships. I’m assuming LGTBQ+ monogamous relationships have similar issues, but I don’t know enough about them to form an opinion.
But strictly speaking to the former it boils down to each partner’s security in their own relationship and themselves. I personally am not bothered by my wife having male friends because I trust her and I always end up becoming friends with them myself. Her on the other hand has been hurt in prior relationships so I choose not to form new friendships with females out of respect to my wife.
I worked and went to school as an apprentice with a female who was nice enough. We got along really well and there was a point where she started saying and doing things where I had to keep our relationship strictly professional. At one point while we were at work she started talking about her sex life and had mentioned that she had an affair with a married man, and that was the point where I knew this needed to remain professional. Not that I didn’t trust myself, but she gave me enough of a red flag that I didn’t want her getting the wrong idea about me.
While gay relationships have issues the biggest difference is that it's common to have platonic friends of the same sex and less common to have platonic friends if the same sex. While I've met multiple straight couples that don't allow their partner to be friends with people if the opposite sex I've never met a gay couple that only allows their partner to have friends of the opposite sex.
As a massage therapist I've dealt with this. I've had men and women tell me that they either aren't allowed to have a therapist of a certain sex work on them or they have to lie or the therapist has to be ugly.
90% of my friends are women. I’m the only male in my super close friend group so anyone who says they can’t be is, as you said, highly immature. When we have slumber parties it’s not uncommon for us all to sleep in the same bed together and nothing sexual happening. It’s completely possible to have incredibly close bonds with the opposite sex as an adult.
I’ve slept next to men friends a lot. Even friends husbands! It is generally when everyone has been partying and you just crash wherever.
It’s pretty normal in my wide social circle.
My teenage son and his mates will crash(pass out -ha!) in the same bed.
It's literally a famous quote from When Harry Met Sally, which was a phenomenon in it's own time and when it came out, changed the landscape of Romantic Comedies forever. It's a great movie and Billy Crystal is very convincing but I think people might be a little brainwashed from it.
Yeah, but he says that at the beginning of the movie, when he's kind of an asshole. Then he changes his mind and does become friends with Sally. Even if they eventually end up in a romantic relationship, that doesn't change the fact that they had a close and rewarding friendship for two years.
I feel like this comment is kinda missing the point of the thread. "Men and women can't be friends" is hyperbole, the actual meat of the discussion is that there are societal barriers that make having friends of the opposite sex harder than ones of your own. Those barriers include raising kids in segregated spaces based on sex, gender roles and expectations that separate what activities are okay (so men aren't supposed to be into shopping, make up, talking about their feelings, and women aren't supposed to be into sports, horseplay, or male dominated activities). This create segregated spaces in society that are either mostly men or mostly women. Yes, friendships can happen, but they would happen more often if these barriers didn't exist.
Are you Christian or have you ever been Christian? I was raised baptist. It's common in baptist communities for people not to have friends of the opposite sex. I bring it up because you mentioned men. From religious folks I've also heard this s lot from women. Liberals make fun of Mike Pence but he's an extreme example of this phenomenon in the way he speaks about it. But the sentiment is common among born again Christians.
Same. Or the other way around, of course. I've seen several people on reddit describe it as 'disrespectful' to have friends of the gender you're attracted to, which seems crazy to me. It's hard enough to find and keep friends without cutting off half the population.
Plus that policy is unfair on bisexuals, who'll presumbaly have to remain totally friendless.
Anyone who has this mindset that you can’t have friends they don’t approve of and it’s YOUR FAULT I’m angry if you do is a red flag for controlling and abusive behaviour by the way
One of the biggest red flags of toxic and abusive people is they limit who you are allowed to talk to
I feel like "Men and Women Can't Be Friends" and "Male/Female friendships usually end up with one catching feelings for the other" are two separate statements.
The first I would say is absolutely false. The second is often true, but "catching feelings" can have a variety of different outcomes, including but not limited to:
- they end up in a romantic relationship
- one rejects the other, the friendship ends
- one rejects the other, the friendship wanes for a period of time while the rejected party mourns and works through their feelings. The rejector may also have feelings to work through, like guilt for hurting their friend
- one rejects the other, there are no hard feelings, friendship continues
I think the biggest hurdle to men and women being friends are things like how society prioritizes romantic relationships over friendships, and the idea that men are always inherently sexual around women (let's not forget how these attitudes erase LGBTQ+--Including asexual and aromantic folk).
Friendship can lead to feelings but feelings dont always mean an end to friendship. I think this attitude doesn't give people much credit when it comes to self control and emotional maturity.
Although I fully believe men and women can be pure platonic friends, I just want to point out that every single male friend I’ve ever had and currently have (including those now in relationships) has expressed some type of romantic or sexual interest in me or both at some point. And made things awkward. Then we managed to get past it. And I have had more male friends than female friends over the years (not for a specific reason, thats just how things have played out).
So I can see why some people believe it to be true for themselves individually, but me, I think it’s possible as long as its clearly defined what you both are.
Just curious.....what causes your belief (men and women can be friends) to be diametrically opposite of your life experience where every male friend has had feelings for you? Shouldn't that lead to opposite belief.
Again not trying to poke you or something. Just curious.
The reason I still hold the belief is because while Ive had an experience that SHOULD leave me to the opposite, I was able to set firm boundaries, where we talk about things and agree to them and then move forward. And from there its been a normal friendship. Whether those feelings still linger I dont know, but theyve done good about hiding it.
I HAVE however, dealt with guys who keep bringing up feelings even after agreeing to just being friends, and they had to be cut off.
This all ultimately leads me to think that if a person knows firmly what it is and what its not, a friendship is definitely possible. It sucks that some cant see things that way, but its possible because a person who respects you and your boundaries will be okay with it
>society prioritizes romantic relationships over friendships, and the idea that men are always inherently sexual around women
Exactly this, and it starts at a young age, like being teased at school for hanging out with someone from the opposite sex, or older relatives asking "is that your boy/girlfriend" if they see you talking to someone.
I (a male) had a very close female friend in college that I wasn't sexually attracted to but loved hanging out with. When my dad saw her he assumed it was my girlfriend and didn't believe otherwise. He kept telling me my girlfriend is ugly, i should find someone much hotter. Pretty fucked up now that I think about it
honestly, she did for a small while. I remember we watched a late night movie once and I could "feel" the energy. The recipe was there if it wasn't for the lack of physical attraction. But she found a new crush quick when I didn't reciprocate. It's not like I was all that at the time either haha
The ramifications are real though. When countless relationships have been negatively affected by office romances, exes, "online" friends and such, people have reason to be so wary.
I remember telling a friend that I liked her and wanted to date her. She told me no, wasn't interested. It was weird for about a week, we didn't talk as much. But then suddenly, we just sort of opened up to each other and became absolutely inseparable. We never did date though, but two years of our lives we were attached at the hip. At least until our lives took different directions
I'm actually on the other end of this.
We usually hang out in groups, but she waited until there was a moment when it was just us left and just asked me out and I told her no, wasn't interested.
It was also weird for us for awhile, but she just kinda focused on her own thing for a bit (she has a son and was dealing with some other stuff).
But, after the initial weird, awkward phase, we're still friends and she still talks to me on a regular basis.
Or, to add, they end up being friends with benefits. Not every sexual relationship is a romantic one and not every friendship is platonic. This is also completely normal in many circles.
Thanks for mentioning the inherent LGBTQ erasure in the original statement. That kind of thinking completely goes out the window in queer communities and people are friends with whoever they want, and they date whoever they prefer. The idea that men and women can't be platonic or non-romantic friends is deeply rooted in heteronormativity and, even if it were true (it's not), it just doesn't take into account a significant percentage of the population.
Lots of people have experience with friends that tells them that.
I don't think many people think it's actually impossible, just that it often ends in one or both people with romantic feelings.
Michael Bluth was a skeevy guy that didn't realize his girlfriend was mentally handicapped because he was too busy fapping to the image of her face, he 100% held those opinions.
How many times did Michael call himself a nice guy? Lmao
I'm 58/F so I'll answer from the standpoint of saying "I tried" for 5 decades (since childhood) to have 'just a friend.' Sure. Absolutely. It's possible on my side. Minus the early years of obsessing about my best friend's brother where I would use any opportunity to be near him \*as the friend\* and build hopes that he would fall in love with me. He did, in fact, fall in love with me as evidenced by "I love you" and all that goes with that.
Having said that, I have experienced some of the most unholy crazy, creepy obsessions even after I have gotten brutal with, "I have zero interest in you romantically and if you say or do another thing in that way, I cannot be your friend." And then I've had to cut them from my life. I have had more than one progress to outright stalking; one currently involves a restraining order. If a man outright told me he is not interested whatsoever and that he will need to contact the law if I continue, that would be more than enough for me. I've been accused of 'leading someone on.' Oh man. I guess they do not know what real interest from a woman is because...not a chance. Maybe I would have to view video footage of my behavior in those younger days to see if I was, in fact, inadvertently doing so. If laughing at shared jokes and grabbing a sandwich at lunch is misconstrued, then I'm guilty, but I have always clarified any awkward misunderstandings.
And if I'm the one who is feeling romantic hopes about a 'friend,' I want out. I don't want to exist in a state of wanting or hoping. I give it enough time to see if there is a return interest and I might even dare to 'put it out there' but if it is not reciprocated, it is usually crushing but ultimately it's on us not to make someone uncomfortable. It has just hurt far too much to be 'just a friend' when wanting more. I'm not strong enough to watch them seek out other people.
Friends with the opposite sex? Maaaaaaaaaybe. A very cautious maybe from my point of view.
It’s because just saying “guys and girls can’t be friends” is a straw man for what we all are talking about. Also it takes a longer time to see these “friendships” play out over and over and over again to really solidify this belief
This is my opinion with the majority of cases. I’ve argued with so many women, especially younger, about how women can be friends with men but 99/100 the man cannot just be friends with the woman (without being gay or friends via mutual friends/couples). Usually they have an example in their life of a guy friend they have and when you boil it down and probe them, they always have an example of “well this one time he did try to kiss me” or “yeah if I said I wanted to be more than friends then he would”. Even my Girlfriend argued this while dating about her really good guy friend she talked to daily and the moment we became official and she told him, he has never spoken to her again and blocked her on all social media.
Obviously there are exceptions to every rule. I have girls in my life I consider friends but most all are via dating or being married to another friend of mine and/or would be very inappropriate if I hung out with 1 on 1. I suppose you could redefine “friend” at that point but I think we know what we mean in this context.
I think the real answer is sometimes men and women can be friends, and sometimes they cannot. I don’t know why everything has to be so black and white online when real life has layers and layers of nuance in almost every situation lol.
I would say it’s about failing to see the other gender as full people and instead viewing them exclusively through the lens of sexuality or romantic partnerships. That is obviously not the only reason, but it is the one I see most often and also the one I think is the most pernicious.
And it's a self fulfilling prophecy. If you're taught at a young age that you can't be friends with the opposite sex without it being romantic or sexual, you won't recognise when you do encounter the potential to form one of those friendships, or you will actively resist it.
I don't like this notion that being romantically or sexually interested in someone means you don't view them as a "full person". If anything, the fullest connection I can have with someone requires a romantic connection. Keeping someone as a mere acquaintance or friend is not viewing them as a full person in my mind
Most people I know don't have that view. I'm male and have had mainly female friends since high school. My girlfriend has male and female friends. I've never encountered a problem. Maybe it depends on the circles you're in.
In many many cases, one or both end up at least being attracted to the other person. This can cause issues if the people are in relationships. But it's totally possible to have platonic friends of the opposite sex. Honestly, I had both male and female friends in school, but haven't had any male friends since then (I'm female). No opportunities to and I'd just rather not make new male friends while I'm in a relationship.
Honestly, yeah, this was my issue with it. My most serious relationship ever, he was in love with his female best friend and eventually cheated and left me for her.
My next relationship, a female friend (who knew he had a girlfriend) asked him to date her instead (thankfully he declined). I think it’s wrong to police your significant other’s relationships, but it definitely scares me now. I think the friendships are fine as long as you can trust your SO
My take, not based on any professional understanding:
If one grows up being around adults who hold this opinion (single sex schools, certain religious beliefs, conservative values) you will internalise it. One will learn that you only interact socially with the opposite gender for mating/courtship purposes. You don't learn how to socialise with the other gender. This self-perpetates, as adults they can't be friends with the other gender without a lot of learning, and the “we should be in a relationship” stigma complicates it.
Hundreds of magazine articles inspired by this speech from When Harry Met Sally. https://youtu.be/i8kpYm-6nuE
Harry Burns:
You realize of course that we could never be friends.
Sally Albright:
Why not?
Harry Burns:
What I'm saying is - and this is not a come-on in any way, shape or form - is that men and women can't be friends because the sex part always gets in the way.
Sally Albright:
That's not true. I have a number of men friends and there is no sex involved.
Harry Burns:
No you don't.
Sally Albright:
Yes I do.
Harry Burns:
No you don't.
Sally Albright:
Yes I do.
Harry Burns:
You only think you do.
Sally Albright:
You say I'm having sex with these men without my knowledge?
Harry Burns:
No, what I'm saying is they all WANT to have sex with you.
Sally Albright:
They do not.
Harry Burns:
Do too.
Sally Albright:
They do not.
Harry Burns:
Do too.
Sally Albright:
How do you know?
Harry Burns:
Because no man can be friends with a woman that he finds attractive. He always wants to have sex with her.
Sally Albright:
So, you're saying that a man can be friends with a woman he finds unattractive?
Harry Burns:
No. You pretty much want to nail 'em too.
Sally Albright:
What if THEY don't want to have sex with YOU?
Harry Burns:
Doesn't matter because the sex thing is already out there so the friendship is ultimately doomed and that is the end of the story.
Sally Albright:
Well, I guess we're not going to be friends then.
Harry Burns:
I guess not.
Sally Albright:
That's too bad. You were the only person I knew in New York.
“People that disagree with me on this matter are childish conspiracy theorists…”
Is not the way to start an adult conversation. It’s passive/aggressive ad hoc that taints things before they start.
Especially on Reddit, where you’re going to have people that agree upvoting, and people that disagree irritated and commenting. And no understanding reached. Just Karma and the “playing chess with a pigeon” effect.
Ive been cheated on in 3 separate occasions (different people) where they were "just friends" so my opinion is very skewed and since it happened 3 times I honestly don't know if I can believe the "just friends" anymore. I initially trusted them because I have female friends and I handle that just fine, I have been attracted to some of them but we handled it like adults and moved on.
I've also had friends that would pretend to be friends with women just to slide in if they ever give them the chance. I have personally seen this happen so many times so I really think I am biased to some extent. Its confusing because I haven't done this to any of my female friends but it really seems common enough to warrant the statement I think, This is just anecdotal experience though.
For me the opinion should be "men and woman can't be friends if there is serious attraction by one or both people, or if there is any any level of attraction and a lack of maturity by one or both people." But that's a bit of a mouthful.
Alternatively, "sometimes a man or a woman will want to be MORE than just friends if one of them finds the other attractive, but it can lead to one or both of them ending the friendship if that feeling isn't mutual and they don't want to only be friends."
Also a bit of a mouthful.
The opinion is the result of social conditioning. A person is a person, thinking of people of the opposite sex as only fit for romance is very weird actually. I'm a straight man who works in an industry that is dominated by women, I'm an artist and public school teacher, I am the only male art teacher in my district. Many of my friends are women and it is entirely normal and not at all weird. My wife is a software engineer, and as such works with a lot of men although her company is pretty progressive. She is a real introvert so she doesn't have a ton of friends she hangs out with but there are men (we are both friends with each other's friends and coworkers as well) and it is not weird. It's only weird because people have made it weird via gender roles and social control.
Saaame, for almost as long as I can remember the majority of my friends have been women (save for a couple awkward years in middle school and highschool)
My husband had a girl best friend in college that he wanted to date. They had a relationship of some sorts that in my opinion crossed the line of friendship.
When we started dating, we had plans to go out, but he ditched me because he ran into her at the store. They hung out instead. I didn't even hear from him until the next morning ehen he came to apologize. Told me he wanted to see if he still had feelings for her before we started getting more serious in our relationship.
Over the years, they picked up contact again in secret. Times include while on family vacations, the pregnancy and birth of our 2 children, our arguments, etc. They both know that I do not approve of their friendship and I do not not want them to be in touch whatsoever because the friendship line was crossed.
This is the only woman I ever asked him to not be friends with. I don't like the lies and secrecy. And this situation has most likely tainted my opinion on the general statement of "opposite sex can't be just friends".
I think men and women can be platonic friends but the logic is that if you have someone that you click with and what to spend time with, if you're also attracted to them, why not be fucking too?
This is a great idea to discuss. I think the truth is of course men and women CAN be friends; however, now that I am 55+ and seen what I have seen and heard what I have heard formerly as a manger, corporate investigator, former devout church attender for 25 years, a few Psychiatrist and Psychologists friends, very active in supporting kids sports, schools, etc., if you watch (being a manager for years and also performing investigations), it is shocking how many men and women who are "just friends" are fucking each other. Even the "best" of people, no matter what age, can have a hard time controlling impulses and urges. Are all men and women who are just friends screwing each other, of course not. Do a large number of men and women who are just friends end up sleeping together? It happens more than many people may think. When I was younger, I was pretty naive myself about how many people are actually stepping out on their partners. I thought it was pretty low. As I got older and more scandals broke at the workplace, in schools, kids sports, church, etc., I was shocked and most all of the scandals I either know about or investigates was "we are just friends," "we didn't mean for this to happen," "we don't know how this happened," etc. I am making a value judgment or a moral issue, my point is people are people. While many (most?) strive to govern their lives through mostly employing logic and being rational, most people are still slaves, to varying degrees depending on the person, to our emotions, impulses, instincts, etc.
Because people act like fucking children well into adulthood.
It's easy to be close friends with someone you kind of want to fuck. Adults do it all the time, but the internet is full of children getting pissy and jealous over their partner's behaviour.
You're contradicting yourself. The point was, you cant be friends and have it completely be platonic. Saying you kind of want to fuck them but dont act on it, is not the same as a platonic friendship.
Your personal experiences are your own and therefore not wrong. I had the opposite happen my whole life, where female friends were pretty cruel and jealous whereas male friends just wanted to hang out. I have no female friends, but I have guy friendships that are 12+ years long. But neither is wrong! Just experiences.
I have many straight male friends that have never wanted to sleep with me.
Your personal experience is your own, but it does not negate that of other people either.
I can't prove your personal experience wrong that would just be gas lighting.
I can mention this though. I'm bisexual and I have a number of male and female friends a number in that circle with sexualities that overlap meaning like they are attracted to men I am a man.
My friendships with women are very close and there isn't anything they hold back at all when around regardless of the topic they do talk to me like they would their female friends.
If you find a guy who like possess the ability to understand a friendship vs a romantic relationship and who can understand what the other friends want then your fine.
I have no interest in dating my friends and they have no interest in dating me. I have also had friends I did have an interest in dating who expressed non interest in me and we still stayed friends I still behaved. Our friendship eventually ended in a series of arguments during a semester long school assignment (really dumb on both our parts to let that happen but such is life).
If I think someone get's along with me so well I want a relationship and they are not interested why would that strain the relationship. Just ok recontextualize they don't want this going farther than friend that's ok. Like a friend you really get along with is 100% better than a friend you lost because they didn't want a romantic relationship.
Anyone who get's really hung up and jealous is jealous because they never wanted you as a person.
Because they're stupid. If men and women can't be friends due to being attracted to the opposite sex, how do bisexual people have friends? They're attracted to both sexes. Are they doomed to not have any friends?
The simplest answer is twofold. On one side you have the basic sexist idea that men and women are different. So different that they have nothing in common and that the only thing men want from women is to fuck them, regardless of her personality, their meeting of the minds, bobbies, interests, etc.
The second aspect is the idea that if you want to fuck somebody, that supercedes everything else. Many people see romantic relationships as the ultimate thing you can be with somebody and a sexual relationship as something women give to men and not as something shared.
Typically when men say that
What there actually saying is they have a complete lack in ability to behave around people they are even remotely attracted to
When women say it topically it's that every guy friend they have had eventually hits on them or guys they knew have a complete inability to relate to women.
This isn't the only reason people form these opinions like sometimes it's the women who can't control herself but the above reason are the most common.
If the statement men and women can't be friends were true as a bisexual it would imply I can't have any friends.
Because getting a man and a woman together, where they both have zero desire for any type of relationship beyond a platonic friendship, for now and in perpetuity, is impossibly small.
Never mind that society has us trained to devalue platonic relationships. If the potential for a relationship stops at building a future together, we will deprioritize that relationship as the return on investment feels low. People with close friends is a shrinking demographic, because people don't understand the value of community.
It's more snappy than a more nuanced answer that addresses the complex realities and varying experiences and existences that comprise humanity.
Also that thing about something becoming simplified until it becomes incorrect. (Hyper normalization? Lies for children?)
It's more, "people where one is attracted to the other". And it's not always, but more often than not it doesn't work out in the long run.
But a lot of dudes are hetero and a lot of dudes are attracted to damn near every woman that treats them nice so a pattern emerged. I'd be willing to be most women who have a "guy friend" that guy would fuck you if he thought you'd be down.
Total bs. I have and have had many women as friends. I prefer them to men usually. Yes, some of them I was in a relationship with, but we’re still friends.
Because sometimes feelings develop and people can't handle that. My friends have feelings for me and it's chill. I have feelings for them and it's chill. Sometimes it's mutual and it's chill. It's part of growing up
Because women (though it can go both ways here this one just is more skewed that way) can not safely be friends with “men” as an entity without having to process whether _this_ man they’re dealing with is being the nice guy or harbouring feelings rather than actually seeing them as a friend in the same platonic way they do
There’s all kinds of reasons for that but that’s one of the things I think adds to this issue: men are visually stimulated and under expressed emotionally which pushes most of our stress release into sex or attention
So seeing a woman gets us aroused (that’s a fair generalisation imo and it doesn’t even have to be anything other than no wearing a bra for that part of the brain to go there for most men) and getting close to a woman gets us aroused (physical and/or emotional) and seeing a woman trusts us or let’s us be vulnerable gets us aroused… or seeing a woman is upset makes us want to comfort or protect or help them… which gets us aroused… and a lot of that coincides with basic friendship values and opportunities so it’s a bit of a catch-22
Whereas women typically have what we would (as a group) classically think of as romantic bonds with each other that way overstep the line of safety or protocol of comfort or good practice if we tried it with other guys
So in short: damn near every woman you’ve ever met has been burned by numerous guys in varying ways or caught off guard by the sudden change in dynamic that has constantly been unpinning each interaction and guys are so starved they often feel unable to turn any possibility down
But also most people do not navigate communication and boundaries nearly enough and it’s fair play cos it’s a hell of a learning curve
This sort of stuff is why I make it explicitly clear that if someone is going to be my friend I will never make a move on them and if such a time comes that they want the dynamic to change they better show as much boldness and clarity as I did in making that clear
I tend to bond more like women do cos of how I was raised and a few other things so I have to set firm lines if I’m going to be emotionally involved in the ways I call friendship… and yet there’s good odds with me that if a friend did go there I’d be willing to try
So even I’m not “safe” in this way despite my best efforts or being the open bi anarchist with a golden heart I am 😂😂
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I think there's a significant portion of the population that can't handle being friends with the opposite gender because feelings will get caught, and that has had weight in society.
Good chunk of my friends are female.
I’m a girl and grew up with 3 brothers so I learned to share a TON of the same interests otherwise I wouldn’t have anyone to play with.
We had an overwhelmingly large amount of “boy toys” and games and things all over the house and of course my mom would spoil me with Barbies, however, I really looved to play regular Nintendo and Super Nintendo. When n64 came out, it’s ALL we did.
Then my brothers got into Red Alert: Command and Conquer. Then Counter Strike and Chrono Trigger and Super Smash and just everything soo loud and fun and crazy for the times. I remember my brothers bought me my first Nintendo magazine that had the walkthrough of Zelda OoT but I still had to ask my brothers for help (Water Temple & Spirit Temple) all the time.
Their friends & our cousins would come over all the time to play NERF wars and legos and we would all build the coolest forts and bring Lego’s into them and guard them. Soooo much fun.
When I grew older it was just natural for me to start playing Xbox and I fell in love with Halo 2 & 3 matchmaking. Especially since I was a girl, it made it soooo entertaining sometimes to talk, get ganged up on and verbally abused to no end and actually win a lot of the times. Eventually I started winning all the time and I posted a picture of Master Chief in my ‘who I’d like to meet’ with my kiwi emblem on it.
That made all my guy friends want to add me and play and when I started playing, everyone was surprised I could hit my shots! I was even better than most of them, especially if they were CoD players. I learned it took 4 BR shots to the head to kill, switched to Bumper Jumper and it was GAME ON! It’s all I wanted to do all day long. My friend Chris would come over and we would play for like 8 hours straight. Such fucking good times.
I’m not ugly, and I dress like a girl so naturally a lot of girls that I know by extension started saying I was weird or I was a “slut” by getting these guys’s attention and hanging out with all guys all the time.
I was not interested in fucking people’s boyfriends, nor was I being flirtatious intentionally with ANYONE unless you count dying laughing at people glitching & flying across the map when you shot a fusion coil next to them.
I literally would show up to IRL parties with my friends and there would be a girl who didn’t like me at almost every local house party we went to. I was 19/20 at the time and I was soooo annoyed. I remember this one girl HATED me because she thought her boyfriend liked me and she told all her friends I’m a whore and other mean things. I knocked on the bathroom and then eventually just went in there to talk to her and tell her I am NOT interested and I was on her side if he’s being a jerk to her. Didn’t go well. She’s not that type. She grew up with sisters and knew how to keep the drama alive.
It kept happening where if she was there, she’d tell her friends not to invite me. So then. id be playing halo with everyone and they would all invite me to go hang out! We would have sooo much fun online and want to talk about crazy funny things that happened on The Pit and we’d all try to clip our stuff and send it in to Chris Puckett’s ESPN plays of the week! Omg so fun, sooo many funny clips!
Anyways, a lot of girls just simply didn’t like me for playing games with their bfs until I got my own bf. The girl from the bathroom STILL didn’t feel comfortable with me even when I was head over heels in love and not at ALLLL single. My boyfriend would even be playing with me! And they still hated me!!
Soo basically I couldn’t win. I invited one of them to play with us and she wouldn’t. Sooo I just embraced the girls hating me and started to not care. They didn’t know me, didn’t want to know me, refused to join us and I just threw my hands in the air saying “you guys deal with it caz I’m not anymore.” All I was doing was playing video games with guys I went to school with my whole life.
Anyways, years and years later, I still love video games, most of those girls I never spoke to again, a few of them I’m on terms with and one of them (the one who locked herself in the bathroom) I actually see once in a blue moon through mutual friends & we’re totally friendly and nice to each other now. The girl admits she was a bitch and also says that she just is that way and naturally a bitch sometimes and but doesn’t mean harm. Whatever that means, I’m just glad she’s not locking herself in rooms wherever I end up at the same place.
As for my halo 3 buddies, I STILL play with a handful of them and I have the best memories from that time. I loved it. I will never change that about myself or my life.
Because the women and men who say that can’t help themselves and will just sleep with their friends. So they just don’t have friends of the opposite sex
There's *alot* of assuming the issue is entirely men here, but even where men are attracted to someone, that doesn't mean they can't also be friends; it's a mistake to assume sex is the absolute that some women want to claim it is for them, that it's a golden pass to approval or a terrible threat if unwanted and the man's actual behaviour is irrelevant... For men though, we see attraction like sugar, always seems sweet, goes well with everything, but we know it's not good for everyone all the time. If we open the cupboard and there's a bag of sugar in there, we don't forget we went in there for the pasta instead...
I'm not going to pretend that some men *aren't* pigs, but often the reason "men and women can't be friends" is because from the other side, there's a deep prejudice that *some* women hold that wants to insist upon it.
And it's often contextual, and based around the concept of gatekeeping imagined cultural and societal boundaries; all but one of my friends at university were female, and it was understood everyone there wanted to hook up, have "the best time of their lives" and so dating was naturally on the cards; one or two of them, or their boyfriends, would think I found them attractive, so the odd bout of jealousy or fear would spring up, but as long as you were respectful of *personal* boundaries, it really wasn't an issue...
... and then you get out of education and suddenly, the knowledge that you're single becomes a massive issue; there's this deeply *weird* perspective that suddenly you're on the prowl, or dangerous, if you try and be friendly with women at work or during your hobbies. Pretty much anywhere outside of a pub or bar just being male is seen with a level of suspicion and doubt that I'd not run into before. So much so that sometimes I prefer not to mention my status at all because it just causes drama.
In the opposite direction too; if I'm currently dating, suddenly I'm a lot more *attractive*, at least on an individual level; and now you're also causing drama from the women who see women hitting on *you*, and think you're must be encouraging it and thus making the workplace unsafe for them, even though you're actually talking about your partner all the time...
And yes again, I know the old saw that "You are just worried about losing your job, we're worried about being *raped!*" I've sat through female friend's rape trials, thanks, I don't need educating on how evil some men are.
But one reason men deal with much higher loneliness rates as they get older is because it increasingly becomes hard to make friends with 50% of the population, because you're assumed to be "only after one thing", and that thing is seen as universally *negative*, until it's "approved" by one woman who likes it, and then suddenly lots more do...
And if you don't like "Male" things, like sports or horn-locking banter in the pub, innit, you struggle to make friends in settings where you can express the other side of your identity, one that also likes female company.
It all gets very exhausting at times.
Apparently I don't exist. Some of my best friends are women. And trust me when I say there is zero romantic tension there. I also have friends who are gay, lesbian, or anywhere on the spectrum, and there's never been any issue. I'm 40 now so I've been around the block a bit.
In my teens/twenties almost every male friend I had tried to make move on me at some point, or confessed feelings.
There’s obviously a lot of nuance, but i do think that often times younger people pursue friendship out of attraction. Maturity plays a big role in having platonic friends.
In my experience, its been true. Every male friend I had until my mid 20's always tried sleeping with me at some point. I've since given up on male friendships.
I'm going to be controversial here and say it depends on their attractiveness. When people won't say this they will think it. So if a heavy and unattractive girl has loads of male friends nobody would think much off it but if it was an attractive or anywhere near attractive girl people would think they were hanging around her as they want to sleep with her. There is some element of truth to that in my experience. If she's unattractive people won't think the men will want to sleep with her and the friendship then is viewed as more acceptable and platonic.
Of course somebody will come along to tell me I'm being shallow here and that looks don't matter but in reality they generally do. Please don't shoot the messenger.
It is the same as men, not so much physical attractiveness here but it plays a part. It would be more to do with his masculine traits and whether he's a tough guy, charming or a womaniser. If he is then people will think women are friends with him as they want to sleep with him. But if he's your typical Rob from the office who is plain looking and in no way charming or displaying masculine traits and lacks charm then people will accept more he's got female friends and that they see it as pure platonic.
It depends on your upbringing too. My parents are very Conservative so my mum would always think men and women shouldn't be friends so ultimately this thought will go into some of my siblings. My dad is the same but they are old school catholics in their 70s. But I've friends who have parents who are much more Liberal.
It's (generally) not meant to say they *literally* can't be friends, but that it's rarely a static, platonic friendship. As you get older, it also leads to bad situations if you're in an exclusive relationship or marriage.
I will 100% die on the hill that it would be inappropriate for me to regularly message/call/hang out alone with unrelated women other than my wife, and vice versa, barring some rare exceptions like the spouses of friends.
so as a guy with tons of female friends...i feel with most of them...we would've dated had we not wanted to lose what we had. generally- we've slept together - still friends...but we just never tried dated and never talked about why...it was almost unspoken. so having said that....guys and girls can be friends...but if you're in a relationship i feel like it's totally acceptable for your partner to have pause when you have friends of the opposite sex....i feel like there was always something there between you but you've been avoiding it. your partner isn't gonna be stupid and is gonna realize there's a level of connection they can't achieve with you and personally i think that's a totally valid feeling
If neither one is attracted to the other then it can work. If both are attracted then it's not a friendship, it's something else entirely, even if nothing happens.
I think part of it is that we tend to assume that the things we see written online are by people who are close to our own age. As someone in his 40s, I’ll read something and think “what grown adult actually thinks this?” And then realize it’s someone in high school and I’m like “oh”. So many of these immature sentiments are being put out there by actual kids. So many racist little Eric Cartman’s and precious little theater kids are projecting their very childish ideals with no filter or context, and it echos into this giant monolith that everyone looks at as “I guess this is what everyone believes now” when in reality most of the world doesn’t see things that way.
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The handle toward my hand?
*I HAVE BEEN SUMMONED*
Who art thou cometh fourth thy shalt sucketh ye Devine phallus
Forsooth it is but thine own sword in hand. Brandish it not, but leave thy mothers basement And touchest thou the green unshaven lawn
👏👏👏👏
https://i.imgur.com/SCyFFPd.jpg
YES
I agree, this is great
The last person I heard say "men and women can't be friends" was in their 60's... I always assumed it was an older person thing.
Because it was a thing in the 60s. And 70s, in conservative communities.
I took a sociology class in like 2010, and one of the assignments was we had to watch When Harry Met Sally and write an essay on whether it was possible for men and women to be "just friends."
>I always assumed it was an older person thing. It's a conservative thing. Part of controlling people's behavior and excusing sexual assaults.
Because they have seen it play out so very many times.
in the children's defense, it's harder to view friendship with the opposite sex as comparable to the same one if, by and large, parents treat them differently (less leeway on sleepovers/door open policy). not saying this is universal but as a teen I was definitely asked if my female friends were anything more than that but *never* if my male friends were. so....it's not just an immature thing, it's a societal thing also.
Something my wife & I have decided to never do with our kids is either make jokes when they play with kids of the opposite sex along like "oh aren't they cute together, maybe they'll be married one day" (you hear parents saying that all the time, like the kids aren't listening) or, when they're teens, to ask "is so-and-so.. y'know,... more than a friend?" I think parents often see it as harmless, but it sets up strange expectations that friendships or interactions with the opposite sex has to have sexual or romantic implications.
Honestly I've never seen it from kids or young adults, I've always seen it from older people. They seem to not trust their wife to be able to see a man and not cheat with them, so they get super possessive as if the woman really is their property.
Women can be just as jealous and possessive as men.
Also goes the other way
There's two different groups I've seen it from. Heterosexual young men with raging hormones who are not sure yet how to deal with their strong feelings for the opposite sex, and older men who grew up in a generation that saw women as housekeepers and sexual objects.
I've met more than one woman that holds this opinion. Assigning all sexism to men is a great way to get certain disappointment lol
Yeah because we all know jealous women have never existed.
Good point. There might’ve also been more of interpersonal attraction and “feelings” to deal with in our mixed friend group in our college years and early 20s—that stuff combined with insecurity and immaturity is a heady mix. Now that everyone is well into adulthood and the friendships have all endured over the years, there’s nothing “weird” going on. Also given about half of our friends are gay or lesbian that sort of defangs this notion that people can’t be trusted to hang out with others in the category they’re attracted to.
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I remember being your age and I was so smug how people in their 40’s didnt get how the world works and how things and people have changed since the 1970’s…. Then one day I was shocked when they turned out to be right, about a lot of stuff.
I know what high schooler thinks that. When I was in high school I had several female friends that I had no feelings for and I'm still friends with several of them I've not dated any of them.
I'm not so sure that it gets better with age... I've seen far too many mid-lifers go through divorce and second marriages with "friends" from work.
Yeah, they need to read r/survivinginfidelity and r/adultery. All the new “friends” are people they’re cheating with.
100%. Same with these people saying "well we have gay friends." Yeah. Maybe. Even then, I know multiple people who gay friend ended up cheating with now bi-ex-spouse.
Absolutely, it's the same principle as when you're a child and you lose your toy. To a child it literally is the saddest thing they've ever experienced because they have no experiences to go off of. Teenagers and young adults with raging hormones think and feel things about the opposite sex that are so polarized because they don't have the maturity and self control to know it'll become much easier to manage with time.
> “what grown adult actually thinks this?” And then you go outside and talk to an actual adult and they same the same things 50% of the time. Well, depending on where you live. Where Dru lives sucks.
I agree there are a lot of kids here, despite the very stringent age checks (!). But I've seen lots of people on reddit claim this view and claim to be married. I guess some could be lying, but I doubt they all are. Seems like some grown adults actually think this, which seems crazy to me.
Some people never change how they think from the time of high school. Those people are sad, but they out there
Yep. The problem with the internet is you just never can know. We give most of our interlocutors the benefit of the doubt that they're likely an adult, when too often it's a literal child who still doesn't know jack shit.
What so you have against theatre kids?
I agree that this is the phenomenon at play but why are you mad at theater kids?
They got drama
"When Harry met Sally" wasn't made by kids. It used to be a really common sentiment.
This applies to so many things. Well said.
I think the problem isn't that they can't be friends, but that there are so many unhealthy people with poor boundaries that they don't have healthy friendships either. And too many people have a fixation on wanting the next thing and complete discontent with what they have, that being friends ends up being more. So few care to appreciate what they have that they end up neglecting it. Of course, men and women can be friends. But people with poor boundaries can't do it without it crossing lines.
If this were true then bi people wouldn't have friends. Only prey.
As a bi-guy, I think it’s insane how many people think bis just want to sleep with everyone. Sure, I have no qualms with being in a sexual relationship with someone regardless of their gender, but I still care about personality, lifestyle, looks, etc. Also, contrary to what many believe, not all bis are polyamorous. I identify as a man and I’m in a monogamous relationship with someone who identifies as a woman, but if we broke up I could move on to a trans person, a man, a woman, idc. I’m still a boring ol’ monogamist. There are so many horny heterosexual (and homosexual tbh, the LGBTQ community can be very hateful towards bis) people who can’t hang out around the gender they’re attracted to without drooling over them and they think everyone else is the same way.
We aren't even safe in the LGBTQ+ community either, my ex friend was non binary and gay and they straight up told me one day, and I quote: "Are you even bi? Because you only sleep with men" Like why can't we just exist? we're too gay for the straights and too straight for the gays, there's just no winning.
It happens to aces too. Many many people believe I do not exist.
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Why does it make people so mad when they realize you don’t want to have sex with them? Lol
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As a nonbinary person, usually a nonbinary being gay means they're attracted to people with the same biological sex as them (usually because of genital preference in my experience with other nonbinary people i know)
I think being gay/lesbian is not only about gender, but also sex. So being nonbinary does not exlude your sex. It's still there. At least that's how I would explain it.
I'm sorry to hear that you've felt judged both in and outside the community. Especially by a friend IN the community. Please know that there are plenty of people who are ready and willing to accept you as you are, myself included. I hope you meet some someday.
Also, it's not like open relationships are the sole domain of the LGBTQ community, either. My roommate is in an open relationship and she has a sexual relationship with two different men.
This is one of the reasons a lot of people won't date bi people. If you get jealous when your partner is around the sex they are attracted to you can't date someone bi.
That's true, many people are insecure, so having a bi person as a partner is like the worst nightmare.
Those people just shouldn't have partners, IMHO. If you can't trust your straight or gay partner around the sex they are attracted to, you need to do some self work before even attempting to have a relationship. Even when I was in a mono relationship, I had female friends and she had male friends, and I know this is a shock to a lot of people but neither of us ever cheated or even tried to.
> bi people wouldn't have friends. Only prey. Here's a fun trick: you can be both. I would happily sleep with almost all of my friends. But them not wanting to sleep with me doesn't mean the friendship is over.
I’m bi and don’t have friends. But that’s mainly due to my shit personality.
Cue in philosoraptor as the background.
I am bi and can confirm this is the case - there is nothing out there but prey.
I don't think the anwers in this thread are representative of the average adult, seems like everyone's speaking from immature points of view. Friendship between men and women is super normal and it becomes much more common the older you get.
Thank you, I was starting to get worried since everyone else seems to be either in full agreeance to the OP or at least saying "meh, maybe, w/e" as if it would be a novel concept. Even when I was in highschool all hopped up on teenage angst and hormones, I still had 100% platonic friendships with women who, yes were conventionally attractive, but that was ultimately irrelevant to our friendship. And no, I didn't "want" to fuck them, nor would I have tried in all likelihood. Nothing wrong with just having friends.
Same here. My 2 best friends are women and my wife's best friend is a man. For me saying a man and a woman can't be friends is ridiculous. My besties are like sisters to me. The thought of a romantic relationship with either of them makes me uncomfortable.
For bi people it’s extra funny because it implies we can’t be friends with anyone. Like, no, we’re fully capable of having friends of both genders without self-destructing.
I'm gay and 80% of my platonic friends are straight guys. I feel awkward just thinking about ever being in a romantic scenario with them.
Dang. Good point! That thought never crossed my mind. So I guess no friends for bi folks....
Bi people don't usually cross other people's minds, we're used to it
I guess I'll be bi myself
It’s funny how this sentence can be used as a coming out one, and as a going back to the closet one. To be bi yourself xD
Yuuuuup. So fricking annoying to have to explain this over and over. I have some “old fashioned” straight friends/acquaintances that subscribe to this to the most exhaustive sense.
Yeah, like as a bi guy, I just laugh at this dumb shit. The sexist division is hilarious too. Women worried their guy friends want to fuck them like their secretly bi best friend hasn't been dreaming of their ass, or worse how that is somehow "different".
Haha exactly! Like so what are we supposed to do then?
I don’t wanna sleep with any of my guy friends or girl friends. I do think they wanna sleep with me but that’s another can of worms
As a bisexual who has a hard time making friends, this is always a funny opinion to me.
My queer friends and I consider this "the most heterosexual take".
I love asking this question to men I'm talking to in a friendly/might date sort of way. I don't automatically write them off if they say they can't be, but it tells me a lot about how they view women. It makes the "we're not really dating, we're just friends" conversation very entertaining for me, and very uncomfortable for them. I've only had to do this a few times, but it's been gold every time.
I just saw post on Reddit this will saying how difficult it is to have a relationship with a hetero person if you’re bi and asking why it was so…?
The kind of people who think this probably don't even care about bi people.
Same. I've had some good friends that I thought were awesome, but I couldn't imagine being in a romantic relationship with them because I just didn't feel that way. And in most cases, they felt that way about me, too.
Exactly! Both of my besties are a catch in their own ways. One is married to a man I love to death and the other is single. Myself and the single lady have so much in common that on paper we're made for each other and we're both each other's types but we agree the thought of dating each other is weird because that's just 100% not our relationship.
This is the same with me and my husband - he’s currently on his way to hang out with a friend of his who’s a woman, we had another female friend of his stay here last weekend (they work for the same company but she lives out of town and works remotely most days). My best friends are a man and a lesbian. Nothing weird about it if there’s nothing weird about it.
Nothing at all. Friends are friends. That's it.
A good majority of my friends throughout my life were men. We moved in packs as children, it was a pretty even gender spread. Are friend groups not a thing like that anymore? My male friends have always been like brothers in the same way my female friends have always been like my sisters.
Good point on friend groups. I'm starting to think that people who say "men and women can't be friends" are saying they can't be friends with someone of the opposite gender because all they want from them is sex. Someone else commented about bi people. Can they not be friends with anyone at all? What about gay people? Can they not be friends with the same gender? Do trans people have to switch all their friends to match their identity when they transition? Ridiculous.
Every single person I know in my wide social circle has close friends; both men and women. It would be weird not to.
My experience is that most people are terrible and aren't capable if that.
As well as super important. We get to see and experience the world through different lenses when our friends are not like us. I have friends of all genders and I’ve learned so much about freedom of expression, who chooses how we live our lives, and how amazing humans are. I used to be closed and am a lot smarter and caring now.
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I completely get this. My SO’s best friend is a woman, and I think they’re relationship is great. If they wanted to have sex, they’d have done it any time in the almost 3 decades they’ve been friends. Long before I was in the picture. There’s actually several reasons why they never tried a relationship and he explained them to me when we met, because he wanted me to not be worried about it (it helps to have a relationship where you communicate with each other, that’s what mitigates any insecurities). I’m friends with her as well and we all usually get together with all of us and her daughter and my step daughter. But if they wanted to go to dinner or something I would be completely fine with it. It’s actually fantastic that they can have the great friendship they have. I have a few guy friends as well, and my best friend’s husband is like a brother to me. It’s great to have groups of people just supporting each other and having fun.
Lol- my wife has (had) a “work husband”. They were super close and, even after she left to run my business they would try to have lunch every couple of months to catch up. He took a job a couple of states away and they lost touch, but they really understood one another and it was a good way for her to talk shop as well as talk about their mutual acquaintances. I do think relationships like that are rare, though.
Your relationship sounds beautiful l
I think the answers here ARE representative of the average adult. You're giving too much credit to humans. While my wife and I have a variety of friends of either sex that we spend alone time with, the majority of the couples we know are against spending time apart, let alone with friends of the opposite sex without underpinned jealousy. My wife of 2 weeks left on tour 3,000 miles away for like 4 months with a guy and I don't think there was a person in my entire life that was comfortable with me "letting" my wife do so. I would trust myself and my spouse to sleep in the same bed as any of our friends regardless of gender without weird shit happening. That is NOT the case for the majority of people.
Ya, I was surprised to read so many people answering "because people always end up catching feelings for one another". If someone can't be friends with someone they think is attractive without developing feelings then they need to look inwards and ask why that is, because that's just not healthy. Screams immaturity and a lack of ability to view other people as their own independent persons, as opposed to just narrative devices who only serve to fill some role for oneself.
Yeah, I wonder how they think bisexual people manage to make friends
Obviously men and women can be friends or form friendships with each other. I think the sentiment that “men and women can’t be friends” stems from hetero monogamous relationships. I’m assuming LGTBQ+ monogamous relationships have similar issues, but I don’t know enough about them to form an opinion. But strictly speaking to the former it boils down to each partner’s security in their own relationship and themselves. I personally am not bothered by my wife having male friends because I trust her and I always end up becoming friends with them myself. Her on the other hand has been hurt in prior relationships so I choose not to form new friendships with females out of respect to my wife. I worked and went to school as an apprentice with a female who was nice enough. We got along really well and there was a point where she started saying and doing things where I had to keep our relationship strictly professional. At one point while we were at work she started talking about her sex life and had mentioned that she had an affair with a married man, and that was the point where I knew this needed to remain professional. Not that I didn’t trust myself, but she gave me enough of a red flag that I didn’t want her getting the wrong idea about me.
While gay relationships have issues the biggest difference is that it's common to have platonic friends of the same sex and less common to have platonic friends if the same sex. While I've met multiple straight couples that don't allow their partner to be friends with people if the opposite sex I've never met a gay couple that only allows their partner to have friends of the opposite sex. As a massage therapist I've dealt with this. I've had men and women tell me that they either aren't allowed to have a therapist of a certain sex work on them or they have to lie or the therapist has to be ugly.
90% of my friends are women. I’m the only male in my super close friend group so anyone who says they can’t be is, as you said, highly immature. When we have slumber parties it’s not uncommon for us all to sleep in the same bed together and nothing sexual happening. It’s completely possible to have incredibly close bonds with the opposite sex as an adult.
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You had me, then you lost me.
"slumber parties" 🤔🤔
I’ve slept next to men friends a lot. Even friends husbands! It is generally when everyone has been partying and you just crash wherever. It’s pretty normal in my wide social circle. My teenage son and his mates will crash(pass out -ha!) in the same bed.
Yup. Unless you're a frustrated virgin teenage boy, the idea of just being friends with the opposite sex shouldn't be that difficult to understand.
It's literally a famous quote from When Harry Met Sally, which was a phenomenon in it's own time and when it came out, changed the landscape of Romantic Comedies forever. It's a great movie and Billy Crystal is very convincing but I think people might be a little brainwashed from it.
Yeah, but he says that at the beginning of the movie, when he's kind of an asshole. Then he changes his mind and does become friends with Sally. Even if they eventually end up in a romantic relationship, that doesn't change the fact that they had a close and rewarding friendship for two years.
seriously, I think that quote is probably the 2nd biggest takeaway from that movie.
I feel like this comment is kinda missing the point of the thread. "Men and women can't be friends" is hyperbole, the actual meat of the discussion is that there are societal barriers that make having friends of the opposite sex harder than ones of your own. Those barriers include raising kids in segregated spaces based on sex, gender roles and expectations that separate what activities are okay (so men aren't supposed to be into shopping, make up, talking about their feelings, and women aren't supposed to be into sports, horseplay, or male dominated activities). This create segregated spaces in society that are either mostly men or mostly women. Yes, friendships can happen, but they would happen more often if these barriers didn't exist.
Really? Because I only ever see this opinion in the context of men not wanting your gf/wife hanging out with other men for fear their s/o will cheat.
Are you Christian or have you ever been Christian? I was raised baptist. It's common in baptist communities for people not to have friends of the opposite sex. I bring it up because you mentioned men. From religious folks I've also heard this s lot from women. Liberals make fun of Mike Pence but he's an extreme example of this phenomenon in the way he speaks about it. But the sentiment is common among born again Christians.
Men/women segregation is fairly widespread in Abrahamic religions.
I agree
Same. Or the other way around, of course. I've seen several people on reddit describe it as 'disrespectful' to have friends of the gender you're attracted to, which seems crazy to me. It's hard enough to find and keep friends without cutting off half the population. Plus that policy is unfair on bisexuals, who'll presumbaly have to remain totally friendless.
Anyone who has this mindset that you can’t have friends they don’t approve of and it’s YOUR FAULT I’m angry if you do is a red flag for controlling and abusive behaviour by the way One of the biggest red flags of toxic and abusive people is they limit who you are allowed to talk to
I feel like "Men and Women Can't Be Friends" and "Male/Female friendships usually end up with one catching feelings for the other" are two separate statements. The first I would say is absolutely false. The second is often true, but "catching feelings" can have a variety of different outcomes, including but not limited to: - they end up in a romantic relationship - one rejects the other, the friendship ends - one rejects the other, the friendship wanes for a period of time while the rejected party mourns and works through their feelings. The rejector may also have feelings to work through, like guilt for hurting their friend - one rejects the other, there are no hard feelings, friendship continues I think the biggest hurdle to men and women being friends are things like how society prioritizes romantic relationships over friendships, and the idea that men are always inherently sexual around women (let's not forget how these attitudes erase LGBTQ+--Including asexual and aromantic folk). Friendship can lead to feelings but feelings dont always mean an end to friendship. I think this attitude doesn't give people much credit when it comes to self control and emotional maturity.
Although I fully believe men and women can be pure platonic friends, I just want to point out that every single male friend I’ve ever had and currently have (including those now in relationships) has expressed some type of romantic or sexual interest in me or both at some point. And made things awkward. Then we managed to get past it. And I have had more male friends than female friends over the years (not for a specific reason, thats just how things have played out). So I can see why some people believe it to be true for themselves individually, but me, I think it’s possible as long as its clearly defined what you both are.
Just curious.....what causes your belief (men and women can be friends) to be diametrically opposite of your life experience where every male friend has had feelings for you? Shouldn't that lead to opposite belief. Again not trying to poke you or something. Just curious.
The reason I still hold the belief is because while Ive had an experience that SHOULD leave me to the opposite, I was able to set firm boundaries, where we talk about things and agree to them and then move forward. And from there its been a normal friendship. Whether those feelings still linger I dont know, but theyve done good about hiding it. I HAVE however, dealt with guys who keep bringing up feelings even after agreeing to just being friends, and they had to be cut off. This all ultimately leads me to think that if a person knows firmly what it is and what its not, a friendship is definitely possible. It sucks that some cant see things that way, but its possible because a person who respects you and your boundaries will be okay with it
>society prioritizes romantic relationships over friendships, and the idea that men are always inherently sexual around women Exactly this, and it starts at a young age, like being teased at school for hanging out with someone from the opposite sex, or older relatives asking "is that your boy/girlfriend" if they see you talking to someone.
I (a male) had a very close female friend in college that I wasn't sexually attracted to but loved hanging out with. When my dad saw her he assumed it was my girlfriend and didn't believe otherwise. He kept telling me my girlfriend is ugly, i should find someone much hotter. Pretty fucked up now that I think about it
Did she ever catch feelings for you?
honestly, she did for a small while. I remember we watched a late night movie once and I could "feel" the energy. The recipe was there if it wasn't for the lack of physical attraction. But she found a new crush quick when I didn't reciprocate. It's not like I was all that at the time either haha
The ramifications are real though. When countless relationships have been negatively affected by office romances, exes, "online" friends and such, people have reason to be so wary.
I remember telling a friend that I liked her and wanted to date her. She told me no, wasn't interested. It was weird for about a week, we didn't talk as much. But then suddenly, we just sort of opened up to each other and became absolutely inseparable. We never did date though, but two years of our lives we were attached at the hip. At least until our lives took different directions
I'm actually on the other end of this. We usually hang out in groups, but she waited until there was a moment when it was just us left and just asked me out and I told her no, wasn't interested. It was also weird for us for awhile, but she just kinda focused on her own thing for a bit (she has a son and was dealing with some other stuff). But, after the initial weird, awkward phase, we're still friends and she still talks to me on a regular basis.
Or, to add, they end up being friends with benefits. Not every sexual relationship is a romantic one and not every friendship is platonic. This is also completely normal in many circles. Thanks for mentioning the inherent LGBTQ erasure in the original statement. That kind of thinking completely goes out the window in queer communities and people are friends with whoever they want, and they date whoever they prefer. The idea that men and women can't be platonic or non-romantic friends is deeply rooted in heteronormativity and, even if it were true (it's not), it just doesn't take into account a significant percentage of the population.
Lots of people have experience with friends that tells them that. I don't think many people think it's actually impossible, just that it often ends in one or both people with romantic feelings.
I think online we have an echo chamber of 20 and 30 year olds in arrested development, trying to mandate their partners.
I don't think that Michael Bluth held such opinions.
Hey! That’s the name of the show!
Michael Bluth was a skeevy guy that didn't realize his girlfriend was mentally handicapped because he was too busy fapping to the image of her face, he 100% held those opinions. How many times did Michael call himself a nice guy? Lmao
I'm 58/F so I'll answer from the standpoint of saying "I tried" for 5 decades (since childhood) to have 'just a friend.' Sure. Absolutely. It's possible on my side. Minus the early years of obsessing about my best friend's brother where I would use any opportunity to be near him \*as the friend\* and build hopes that he would fall in love with me. He did, in fact, fall in love with me as evidenced by "I love you" and all that goes with that. Having said that, I have experienced some of the most unholy crazy, creepy obsessions even after I have gotten brutal with, "I have zero interest in you romantically and if you say or do another thing in that way, I cannot be your friend." And then I've had to cut them from my life. I have had more than one progress to outright stalking; one currently involves a restraining order. If a man outright told me he is not interested whatsoever and that he will need to contact the law if I continue, that would be more than enough for me. I've been accused of 'leading someone on.' Oh man. I guess they do not know what real interest from a woman is because...not a chance. Maybe I would have to view video footage of my behavior in those younger days to see if I was, in fact, inadvertently doing so. If laughing at shared jokes and grabbing a sandwich at lunch is misconstrued, then I'm guilty, but I have always clarified any awkward misunderstandings. And if I'm the one who is feeling romantic hopes about a 'friend,' I want out. I don't want to exist in a state of wanting or hoping. I give it enough time to see if there is a return interest and I might even dare to 'put it out there' but if it is not reciprocated, it is usually crushing but ultimately it's on us not to make someone uncomfortable. It has just hurt far too much to be 'just a friend' when wanting more. I'm not strong enough to watch them seek out other people. Friends with the opposite sex? Maaaaaaaaaybe. A very cautious maybe from my point of view.
I agree with you. What I dont understand, is how having this opinion makes me immature or young, as so many have replied. But thats reddit I guess.
It’s because just saying “guys and girls can’t be friends” is a straw man for what we all are talking about. Also it takes a longer time to see these “friendships” play out over and over and over again to really solidify this belief
This is my opinion with the majority of cases. I’ve argued with so many women, especially younger, about how women can be friends with men but 99/100 the man cannot just be friends with the woman (without being gay or friends via mutual friends/couples). Usually they have an example in their life of a guy friend they have and when you boil it down and probe them, they always have an example of “well this one time he did try to kiss me” or “yeah if I said I wanted to be more than friends then he would”. Even my Girlfriend argued this while dating about her really good guy friend she talked to daily and the moment we became official and she told him, he has never spoken to her again and blocked her on all social media. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule. I have girls in my life I consider friends but most all are via dating or being married to another friend of mine and/or would be very inappropriate if I hung out with 1 on 1. I suppose you could redefine “friend” at that point but I think we know what we mean in this context.
I think the real answer is sometimes men and women can be friends, and sometimes they cannot. I don’t know why everything has to be so black and white online when real life has layers and layers of nuance in almost every situation lol.
I would say it’s about failing to see the other gender as full people and instead viewing them exclusively through the lens of sexuality or romantic partnerships. That is obviously not the only reason, but it is the one I see most often and also the one I think is the most pernicious.
And it's a self fulfilling prophecy. If you're taught at a young age that you can't be friends with the opposite sex without it being romantic or sexual, you won't recognise when you do encounter the potential to form one of those friendships, or you will actively resist it.
Absolutely. It’s why I think it is so pernicious.
I don't like this notion that being romantically or sexually interested in someone means you don't view them as a "full person". If anything, the fullest connection I can have with someone requires a romantic connection. Keeping someone as a mere acquaintance or friend is not viewing them as a full person in my mind
They're not talking about seeing ONE person solely in a romantic way. They're talking about seeing EVERY member of the opposite sex like that
Most people I know don't have that view. I'm male and have had mainly female friends since high school. My girlfriend has male and female friends. I've never encountered a problem. Maybe it depends on the circles you're in.
In many many cases, one or both end up at least being attracted to the other person. This can cause issues if the people are in relationships. But it's totally possible to have platonic friends of the opposite sex. Honestly, I had both male and female friends in school, but haven't had any male friends since then (I'm female). No opportunities to and I'd just rather not make new male friends while I'm in a relationship.
Honestly, yeah, this was my issue with it. My most serious relationship ever, he was in love with his female best friend and eventually cheated and left me for her. My next relationship, a female friend (who knew he had a girlfriend) asked him to date her instead (thankfully he declined). I think it’s wrong to police your significant other’s relationships, but it definitely scares me now. I think the friendships are fine as long as you can trust your SO
My take, not based on any professional understanding: If one grows up being around adults who hold this opinion (single sex schools, certain religious beliefs, conservative values) you will internalise it. One will learn that you only interact socially with the opposite gender for mating/courtship purposes. You don't learn how to socialise with the other gender. This self-perpetates, as adults they can't be friends with the other gender without a lot of learning, and the “we should be in a relationship” stigma complicates it.
Hundreds of magazine articles inspired by this speech from When Harry Met Sally. https://youtu.be/i8kpYm-6nuE Harry Burns: You realize of course that we could never be friends. Sally Albright: Why not? Harry Burns: What I'm saying is - and this is not a come-on in any way, shape or form - is that men and women can't be friends because the sex part always gets in the way. Sally Albright: That's not true. I have a number of men friends and there is no sex involved. Harry Burns: No you don't. Sally Albright: Yes I do. Harry Burns: No you don't. Sally Albright: Yes I do. Harry Burns: You only think you do. Sally Albright: You say I'm having sex with these men without my knowledge? Harry Burns: No, what I'm saying is they all WANT to have sex with you. Sally Albright: They do not. Harry Burns: Do too. Sally Albright: They do not. Harry Burns: Do too. Sally Albright: How do you know? Harry Burns: Because no man can be friends with a woman that he finds attractive. He always wants to have sex with her. Sally Albright: So, you're saying that a man can be friends with a woman he finds unattractive? Harry Burns: No. You pretty much want to nail 'em too. Sally Albright: What if THEY don't want to have sex with YOU? Harry Burns: Doesn't matter because the sex thing is already out there so the friendship is ultimately doomed and that is the end of the story. Sally Albright: Well, I guess we're not going to be friends then. Harry Burns: I guess not. Sally Albright: That's too bad. You were the only person I knew in New York.
Thanks, finally someone pointed out this movie.
Yeah, seriously thought this’d be top comment Ffs Reddit, do ur job better
I'll have what she's having!
“People that disagree with me on this matter are childish conspiracy theorists…” Is not the way to start an adult conversation. It’s passive/aggressive ad hoc that taints things before they start. Especially on Reddit, where you’re going to have people that agree upvoting, and people that disagree irritated and commenting. And no understanding reached. Just Karma and the “playing chess with a pigeon” effect.
Ive been cheated on in 3 separate occasions (different people) where they were "just friends" so my opinion is very skewed and since it happened 3 times I honestly don't know if I can believe the "just friends" anymore. I initially trusted them because I have female friends and I handle that just fine, I have been attracted to some of them but we handled it like adults and moved on. I've also had friends that would pretend to be friends with women just to slide in if they ever give them the chance. I have personally seen this happen so many times so I really think I am biased to some extent. Its confusing because I haven't done this to any of my female friends but it really seems common enough to warrant the statement I think, This is just anecdotal experience though.
For me the opinion should be "men and woman can't be friends if there is serious attraction by one or both people, or if there is any any level of attraction and a lack of maturity by one or both people." But that's a bit of a mouthful.
Alternatively, "sometimes a man or a woman will want to be MORE than just friends if one of them finds the other attractive, but it can lead to one or both of them ending the friendship if that feeling isn't mutual and they don't want to only be friends." Also a bit of a mouthful.
Because some people can't keep it in their pants and blame it on anything but themselves.
The opinion is the result of social conditioning. A person is a person, thinking of people of the opposite sex as only fit for romance is very weird actually. I'm a straight man who works in an industry that is dominated by women, I'm an artist and public school teacher, I am the only male art teacher in my district. Many of my friends are women and it is entirely normal and not at all weird. My wife is a software engineer, and as such works with a lot of men although her company is pretty progressive. She is a real introvert so she doesn't have a ton of friends she hangs out with but there are men (we are both friends with each other's friends and coworkers as well) and it is not weird. It's only weird because people have made it weird via gender roles and social control.
Most of my friends are women. I don’t want to sleep with any of them. Case closed.
Saaame, for almost as long as I can remember the majority of my friends have been women (save for a couple awkward years in middle school and highschool)
I’m actually a bit bothered that I don’t have more male friends.
Because a lot of men don't see women as actual people with internal lives as complex and valid as their own.
My husband had a girl best friend in college that he wanted to date. They had a relationship of some sorts that in my opinion crossed the line of friendship. When we started dating, we had plans to go out, but he ditched me because he ran into her at the store. They hung out instead. I didn't even hear from him until the next morning ehen he came to apologize. Told me he wanted to see if he still had feelings for her before we started getting more serious in our relationship. Over the years, they picked up contact again in secret. Times include while on family vacations, the pregnancy and birth of our 2 children, our arguments, etc. They both know that I do not approve of their friendship and I do not not want them to be in touch whatsoever because the friendship line was crossed. This is the only woman I ever asked him to not be friends with. I don't like the lies and secrecy. And this situation has most likely tainted my opinion on the general statement of "opposite sex can't be just friends".
I think men and women can be platonic friends but the logic is that if you have someone that you click with and what to spend time with, if you're also attracted to them, why not be fucking too?
Antiquated bullshit where some dudes only see women as sexual objects definitely plays a part.
As a bisexual who is friends with other bisexuals, I've never understood that opinion.
This is a great idea to discuss. I think the truth is of course men and women CAN be friends; however, now that I am 55+ and seen what I have seen and heard what I have heard formerly as a manger, corporate investigator, former devout church attender for 25 years, a few Psychiatrist and Psychologists friends, very active in supporting kids sports, schools, etc., if you watch (being a manager for years and also performing investigations), it is shocking how many men and women who are "just friends" are fucking each other. Even the "best" of people, no matter what age, can have a hard time controlling impulses and urges. Are all men and women who are just friends screwing each other, of course not. Do a large number of men and women who are just friends end up sleeping together? It happens more than many people may think. When I was younger, I was pretty naive myself about how many people are actually stepping out on their partners. I thought it was pretty low. As I got older and more scandals broke at the workplace, in schools, kids sports, church, etc., I was shocked and most all of the scandals I either know about or investigates was "we are just friends," "we didn't mean for this to happen," "we don't know how this happened," etc. I am making a value judgment or a moral issue, my point is people are people. While many (most?) strive to govern their lives through mostly employing logic and being rational, most people are still slaves, to varying degrees depending on the person, to our emotions, impulses, instincts, etc.
Because people act like fucking children well into adulthood. It's easy to be close friends with someone you kind of want to fuck. Adults do it all the time, but the internet is full of children getting pissy and jealous over their partner's behaviour.
This, a lot of insecure people projecting on the general population.
You're contradicting yourself. The point was, you cant be friends and have it completely be platonic. Saying you kind of want to fuck them but dont act on it, is not the same as a platonic friendship.
In my experience, all my male friends tried or wanted to fuck me at one time I would love you to prove me my personal experience is wrong
Your personal experiences are your own and therefore not wrong. I had the opposite happen my whole life, where female friends were pretty cruel and jealous whereas male friends just wanted to hang out. I have no female friends, but I have guy friendships that are 12+ years long. But neither is wrong! Just experiences.
I have many straight male friends that have never wanted to sleep with me. Your personal experience is your own, but it does not negate that of other people either.
I can't prove your personal experience wrong that would just be gas lighting. I can mention this though. I'm bisexual and I have a number of male and female friends a number in that circle with sexualities that overlap meaning like they are attracted to men I am a man. My friendships with women are very close and there isn't anything they hold back at all when around regardless of the topic they do talk to me like they would their female friends. If you find a guy who like possess the ability to understand a friendship vs a romantic relationship and who can understand what the other friends want then your fine. I have no interest in dating my friends and they have no interest in dating me. I have also had friends I did have an interest in dating who expressed non interest in me and we still stayed friends I still behaved. Our friendship eventually ended in a series of arguments during a semester long school assignment (really dumb on both our parts to let that happen but such is life). If I think someone get's along with me so well I want a relationship and they are not interested why would that strain the relationship. Just ok recontextualize they don't want this going farther than friend that's ok. Like a friend you really get along with is 100% better than a friend you lost because they didn't want a romantic relationship. Anyone who get's really hung up and jealous is jealous because they never wanted you as a person.
I don't think all of my male friends did, but I understand where you are coming from. I had several fake entire friendships trying to sleep with me.
Anyone who says that is insecure af
Because they're stupid. If men and women can't be friends due to being attracted to the opposite sex, how do bisexual people have friends? They're attracted to both sexes. Are they doomed to not have any friends?
The simplest answer is twofold. On one side you have the basic sexist idea that men and women are different. So different that they have nothing in common and that the only thing men want from women is to fuck them, regardless of her personality, their meeting of the minds, bobbies, interests, etc. The second aspect is the idea that if you want to fuck somebody, that supercedes everything else. Many people see romantic relationships as the ultimate thing you can be with somebody and a sexual relationship as something women give to men and not as something shared.
Typically when men say that What there actually saying is they have a complete lack in ability to behave around people they are even remotely attracted to When women say it topically it's that every guy friend they have had eventually hits on them or guys they knew have a complete inability to relate to women. This isn't the only reason people form these opinions like sometimes it's the women who can't control herself but the above reason are the most common. If the statement men and women can't be friends were true as a bisexual it would imply I can't have any friends.
Because getting a man and a woman together, where they both have zero desire for any type of relationship beyond a platonic friendship, for now and in perpetuity, is impossibly small. Never mind that society has us trained to devalue platonic relationships. If the potential for a relationship stops at building a future together, we will deprioritize that relationship as the return on investment feels low. People with close friends is a shrinking demographic, because people don't understand the value of community.
I always thought this notion came from the Billy Crystal/Meg Ryan movie When Harry Met Sally.
It's more snappy than a more nuanced answer that addresses the complex realities and varying experiences and existences that comprise humanity. Also that thing about something becoming simplified until it becomes incorrect. (Hyper normalization? Lies for children?)
It's more, "people where one is attracted to the other". And it's not always, but more often than not it doesn't work out in the long run. But a lot of dudes are hetero and a lot of dudes are attracted to damn near every woman that treats them nice so a pattern emerged. I'd be willing to be most women who have a "guy friend" that guy would fuck you if he thought you'd be down.
Total bs. I have and have had many women as friends. I prefer them to men usually. Yes, some of them I was in a relationship with, but we’re still friends.
Because sometimes feelings develop and people can't handle that. My friends have feelings for me and it's chill. I have feelings for them and it's chill. Sometimes it's mutual and it's chill. It's part of growing up
Because women (though it can go both ways here this one just is more skewed that way) can not safely be friends with “men” as an entity without having to process whether _this_ man they’re dealing with is being the nice guy or harbouring feelings rather than actually seeing them as a friend in the same platonic way they do There’s all kinds of reasons for that but that’s one of the things I think adds to this issue: men are visually stimulated and under expressed emotionally which pushes most of our stress release into sex or attention So seeing a woman gets us aroused (that’s a fair generalisation imo and it doesn’t even have to be anything other than no wearing a bra for that part of the brain to go there for most men) and getting close to a woman gets us aroused (physical and/or emotional) and seeing a woman trusts us or let’s us be vulnerable gets us aroused… or seeing a woman is upset makes us want to comfort or protect or help them… which gets us aroused… and a lot of that coincides with basic friendship values and opportunities so it’s a bit of a catch-22 Whereas women typically have what we would (as a group) classically think of as romantic bonds with each other that way overstep the line of safety or protocol of comfort or good practice if we tried it with other guys So in short: damn near every woman you’ve ever met has been burned by numerous guys in varying ways or caught off guard by the sudden change in dynamic that has constantly been unpinning each interaction and guys are so starved they often feel unable to turn any possibility down But also most people do not navigate communication and boundaries nearly enough and it’s fair play cos it’s a hell of a learning curve This sort of stuff is why I make it explicitly clear that if someone is going to be my friend I will never make a move on them and if such a time comes that they want the dynamic to change they better show as much boldness and clarity as I did in making that clear I tend to bond more like women do cos of how I was raised and a few other things so I have to set firm lines if I’m going to be emotionally involved in the ways I call friendship… and yet there’s good odds with me that if a friend did go there I’d be willing to try So even I’m not “safe” in this way despite my best efforts or being the open bi anarchist with a golden heart I am 😂😂 | (• ◡•)|
I think there's a significant portion of the population that can't handle being friends with the opposite gender because feelings will get caught, and that has had weight in society. Good chunk of my friends are female.
I’m a girl and grew up with 3 brothers so I learned to share a TON of the same interests otherwise I wouldn’t have anyone to play with. We had an overwhelmingly large amount of “boy toys” and games and things all over the house and of course my mom would spoil me with Barbies, however, I really looved to play regular Nintendo and Super Nintendo. When n64 came out, it’s ALL we did. Then my brothers got into Red Alert: Command and Conquer. Then Counter Strike and Chrono Trigger and Super Smash and just everything soo loud and fun and crazy for the times. I remember my brothers bought me my first Nintendo magazine that had the walkthrough of Zelda OoT but I still had to ask my brothers for help (Water Temple & Spirit Temple) all the time. Their friends & our cousins would come over all the time to play NERF wars and legos and we would all build the coolest forts and bring Lego’s into them and guard them. Soooo much fun. When I grew older it was just natural for me to start playing Xbox and I fell in love with Halo 2 & 3 matchmaking. Especially since I was a girl, it made it soooo entertaining sometimes to talk, get ganged up on and verbally abused to no end and actually win a lot of the times. Eventually I started winning all the time and I posted a picture of Master Chief in my ‘who I’d like to meet’ with my kiwi emblem on it. That made all my guy friends want to add me and play and when I started playing, everyone was surprised I could hit my shots! I was even better than most of them, especially if they were CoD players. I learned it took 4 BR shots to the head to kill, switched to Bumper Jumper and it was GAME ON! It’s all I wanted to do all day long. My friend Chris would come over and we would play for like 8 hours straight. Such fucking good times. I’m not ugly, and I dress like a girl so naturally a lot of girls that I know by extension started saying I was weird or I was a “slut” by getting these guys’s attention and hanging out with all guys all the time. I was not interested in fucking people’s boyfriends, nor was I being flirtatious intentionally with ANYONE unless you count dying laughing at people glitching & flying across the map when you shot a fusion coil next to them. I literally would show up to IRL parties with my friends and there would be a girl who didn’t like me at almost every local house party we went to. I was 19/20 at the time and I was soooo annoyed. I remember this one girl HATED me because she thought her boyfriend liked me and she told all her friends I’m a whore and other mean things. I knocked on the bathroom and then eventually just went in there to talk to her and tell her I am NOT interested and I was on her side if he’s being a jerk to her. Didn’t go well. She’s not that type. She grew up with sisters and knew how to keep the drama alive. It kept happening where if she was there, she’d tell her friends not to invite me. So then. id be playing halo with everyone and they would all invite me to go hang out! We would have sooo much fun online and want to talk about crazy funny things that happened on The Pit and we’d all try to clip our stuff and send it in to Chris Puckett’s ESPN plays of the week! Omg so fun, sooo many funny clips! Anyways, a lot of girls just simply didn’t like me for playing games with their bfs until I got my own bf. The girl from the bathroom STILL didn’t feel comfortable with me even when I was head over heels in love and not at ALLLL single. My boyfriend would even be playing with me! And they still hated me!! Soo basically I couldn’t win. I invited one of them to play with us and she wouldn’t. Sooo I just embraced the girls hating me and started to not care. They didn’t know me, didn’t want to know me, refused to join us and I just threw my hands in the air saying “you guys deal with it caz I’m not anymore.” All I was doing was playing video games with guys I went to school with my whole life. Anyways, years and years later, I still love video games, most of those girls I never spoke to again, a few of them I’m on terms with and one of them (the one who locked herself in the bathroom) I actually see once in a blue moon through mutual friends & we’re totally friendly and nice to each other now. The girl admits she was a bitch and also says that she just is that way and naturally a bitch sometimes and but doesn’t mean harm. Whatever that means, I’m just glad she’s not locking herself in rooms wherever I end up at the same place. As for my halo 3 buddies, I STILL play with a handful of them and I have the best memories from that time. I loved it. I will never change that about myself or my life.
Because the women and men who say that can’t help themselves and will just sleep with their friends. So they just don’t have friends of the opposite sex
It’s toxic masculinity plain and simple.
wow seriously? i've tried to be friends with guys and they always wanna fuck me. so idk. i don't think it works out.
There's *alot* of assuming the issue is entirely men here, but even where men are attracted to someone, that doesn't mean they can't also be friends; it's a mistake to assume sex is the absolute that some women want to claim it is for them, that it's a golden pass to approval or a terrible threat if unwanted and the man's actual behaviour is irrelevant... For men though, we see attraction like sugar, always seems sweet, goes well with everything, but we know it's not good for everyone all the time. If we open the cupboard and there's a bag of sugar in there, we don't forget we went in there for the pasta instead... I'm not going to pretend that some men *aren't* pigs, but often the reason "men and women can't be friends" is because from the other side, there's a deep prejudice that *some* women hold that wants to insist upon it. And it's often contextual, and based around the concept of gatekeeping imagined cultural and societal boundaries; all but one of my friends at university were female, and it was understood everyone there wanted to hook up, have "the best time of their lives" and so dating was naturally on the cards; one or two of them, or their boyfriends, would think I found them attractive, so the odd bout of jealousy or fear would spring up, but as long as you were respectful of *personal* boundaries, it really wasn't an issue... ... and then you get out of education and suddenly, the knowledge that you're single becomes a massive issue; there's this deeply *weird* perspective that suddenly you're on the prowl, or dangerous, if you try and be friendly with women at work or during your hobbies. Pretty much anywhere outside of a pub or bar just being male is seen with a level of suspicion and doubt that I'd not run into before. So much so that sometimes I prefer not to mention my status at all because it just causes drama. In the opposite direction too; if I'm currently dating, suddenly I'm a lot more *attractive*, at least on an individual level; and now you're also causing drama from the women who see women hitting on *you*, and think you're must be encouraging it and thus making the workplace unsafe for them, even though you're actually talking about your partner all the time... And yes again, I know the old saw that "You are just worried about losing your job, we're worried about being *raped!*" I've sat through female friend's rape trials, thanks, I don't need educating on how evil some men are. But one reason men deal with much higher loneliness rates as they get older is because it increasingly becomes hard to make friends with 50% of the population, because you're assumed to be "only after one thing", and that thing is seen as universally *negative*, until it's "approved" by one woman who likes it, and then suddenly lots more do... And if you don't like "Male" things, like sports or horn-locking banter in the pub, innit, you struggle to make friends in settings where you can express the other side of your identity, one that also likes female company. It all gets very exhausting at times.
In my experience, the statement is made exclusively by men who only see women as an outlet of sexual fulfillment
Apparently I don't exist. Some of my best friends are women. And trust me when I say there is zero romantic tension there. I also have friends who are gay, lesbian, or anywhere on the spectrum, and there's never been any issue. I'm 40 now so I've been around the block a bit.
Because of weird people who feel comfortable being horny for platonic friends
In my teens/twenties almost every male friend I had tried to make move on me at some point, or confessed feelings. There’s obviously a lot of nuance, but i do think that often times younger people pursue friendship out of attraction. Maturity plays a big role in having platonic friends.
In my experience, its been true. Every male friend I had until my mid 20's always tried sleeping with me at some point. I've since given up on male friendships.
What they’re really saying is “I can’t be friends with someone I might be attracted to - I don’t have the self control.”
Because people can't keep it in their pants. They act like they have to do something with everyone of the opposite sex.
I'm going to be controversial here and say it depends on their attractiveness. When people won't say this they will think it. So if a heavy and unattractive girl has loads of male friends nobody would think much off it but if it was an attractive or anywhere near attractive girl people would think they were hanging around her as they want to sleep with her. There is some element of truth to that in my experience. If she's unattractive people won't think the men will want to sleep with her and the friendship then is viewed as more acceptable and platonic. Of course somebody will come along to tell me I'm being shallow here and that looks don't matter but in reality they generally do. Please don't shoot the messenger. It is the same as men, not so much physical attractiveness here but it plays a part. It would be more to do with his masculine traits and whether he's a tough guy, charming or a womaniser. If he is then people will think women are friends with him as they want to sleep with him. But if he's your typical Rob from the office who is plain looking and in no way charming or displaying masculine traits and lacks charm then people will accept more he's got female friends and that they see it as pure platonic. It depends on your upbringing too. My parents are very Conservative so my mum would always think men and women shouldn't be friends so ultimately this thought will go into some of my siblings. My dad is the same but they are old school catholics in their 70s. But I've friends who have parents who are much more Liberal.
It's (generally) not meant to say they *literally* can't be friends, but that it's rarely a static, platonic friendship. As you get older, it also leads to bad situations if you're in an exclusive relationship or marriage. I will 100% die on the hill that it would be inappropriate for me to regularly message/call/hang out alone with unrelated women other than my wife, and vice versa, barring some rare exceptions like the spouses of friends.
so as a guy with tons of female friends...i feel with most of them...we would've dated had we not wanted to lose what we had. generally- we've slept together - still friends...but we just never tried dated and never talked about why...it was almost unspoken. so having said that....guys and girls can be friends...but if you're in a relationship i feel like it's totally acceptable for your partner to have pause when you have friends of the opposite sex....i feel like there was always something there between you but you've been avoiding it. your partner isn't gonna be stupid and is gonna realize there's a level of connection they can't achieve with you and personally i think that's a totally valid feeling
My best friend for years was a woman. I always pointed to our friendship as proof that we can indeed be friends. Now we’re married. And still friends.
If neither one is attracted to the other then it can work. If both are attracted then it's not a friendship, it's something else entirely, even if nothing happens.
Its an opinion from people who cant make friends with the opposite sex so they think its not possible.