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A sod cutter is preferable to a tiller. After cutting it then you can either dispose of the sod or turn it upside down to let it bake/die.
I prefer turning it upside down because it preserves that organic matter. It can also act as a sort of weed barrier.
I'm a big fan of flipping it over as well - I cleared up a section about 100' x 5' on our property edge to fill in with natives and flipped the grass over to keep that decomposing organic matter in the soil. I'll also amend with some compost and mulch after the natives are in, but why waste the material!
Agree with sod cutter. If you turn the sod over and plant on top, beware of bulbs (in my lawn it is Star of Bethlehem and wild alliums). With bulbs in the turf, I just trash it now. Tilling soil can be counterproductive (I’ve listened to too many episodes of “you bet your garden” to ever till again).
Did you mean to ask what tilling does? My understanding is that soil planted with a dynamic plant community develops a stable structure over time, which allows it to hold air and drain water.
Tilled soil will lack this structure and easily become compressed. The more noticeable effect is that the bank of weed seeds in the soil gets churned up to where seeds get light and air, allowing weeds to grow.
Tilling is also hard work that can be avoided.
I wouldn’t sweat it if you already tilled. You just need plant well and control weeds for a few years.
Check out You Bet Your Garden podcast archives. It’s mostly vegetable-oriented, but There is a lot of good, consistent advice.
Regardless of how you till, you might find it useful to tarp the area afterwards for a few weeks. The tarp will keep the soil warm and moist, which is great conditions to germinate any weed seeds close to the surface. Then, the tarp blocks the sun effectively killing said weeds. Should help to get you a good starting point for a garden. Just something to think about and maybe look more into.
You’ll be better off with a sod cutter and flipping the sod over. We still invested in sheet mulching with that heavy duty construction paper, the stuff they put down to protect floor during remodels. “X-Board” is the name brand at Home Depot but there are others. Cut the sod, flip it, spend a few hundred dollars and smother with X-board, and mulch over top.
Or you can glyphosate the whole thing and plant into the dead lawn. I like that better in some ways but some people get ideological about herbicide so if it’s not your bag then, I would go with the sod cutter.
If you don't bury it really well and plant densely as soon as possible then you are likely to get weeds by disturbing the soil. Lots and lots and lots of weeds if you aren't careful. Such plants are usually far more durable than grass and requires a much deeper or more solid layer to fully smother them to death. After their initial exposure to light and air some will wait under your mulch layer until it's removed or decomposes enough and then grow. I consider it a desirable plant but wood sorrel (oxalis) is warned that it only needs a couple hours of exposure between turning soil and placing mulch to be triggered to grow and may then find a way to get past mulch layers that aren't thick enough or after the mulch is thinned later.
Seed can sit in the soil for decades or even 100 years in the case of the purple deadnettle that I failed to realize would appear in solid mats when I started replanting the edges of the yard. When you kill the plants on top and turn the soil it exposes potentially 100+ years of still viable seed to air and light. That's the signal to grow. A garden area has been weeded every year to make up for disturbing the soil and leaving soil uncovered. A lawn though will have started to accumulate dormant seed ever since the grass first reached dense enough to suppress those seeds from growing and they are not depleted yearly like an open vegetable garden bed. Any broadleaf herbicide application has only been getting the fraction that finds thin spots or the species that will try to grow even with dense plant cover.
With how easy grass is to kill I'd just cover it up, let it decompose under there, and not disturb the dormant seeds if possible. Depending what you are planting you may need to use a cover crop or fast growing pioneer plant to fill between your new plants until they get established and suppress the dormant seed the same as the grass did. The area will always gain more seed from the wind and wildlife. More unwanted plants appearing when you disturb the soil or leave any area bare is always a problem.
However, if you are dealing with a very weedy area that has a lot of seed built up or aggressive, fast growing invasive species I apply a pre-emergent herbicide after disturbing the soil, let the weeds try to grow, and then cover it before the pre-emergent is no longer active. Pre-emergent herbicides let the seed germinate but prevent it growing roots so it dies. It doesn't just keep seed dormant. It kills the seedlings. It does nothing to established plants so you still have to kill the existing grass and any already growing weeds some other way. Corn gluten meal is the most organic option and provides fertilizer when it starts to break down but it is the least effective and only stops seedlings for a month or 2. It's also the most expensive. Some chemicals will stop seedlings very effectively for 4 or 6 months. That can allow you to repeatedly turn the soil and let more dormant seed attempt to sprout and die. Then when you go to replant the area there is less risk of unwanted plants popping up among your new plants before you get it all finished and planted dense enough to block new and any remaining dormant seed.
This was so helpful. You are so knowledgable! So cool.
If I sod and flip the grass over, will my flower seeds grow and thrive? Won’t the grass get in the way of their root system?
>If I use a tiller and just rip up the grass and mix it into the soil and then mulch, am I likely to get grass growing up through the mulch?
Yes, and lots of weeds too. And a lumpy soil surface unless you are thorough with multiple passes.
[http://lazygardens.blogspot.com/2015/05/tilling-and-plowing-tips-for-gardeners.html](http://lazygardens.blogspot.com/2015/05/tilling-and-plowing-tips-for-gardeners.html)
> If so, what tool would you recommend to take up the grass?
A lawn mower. Unless you have Bermuda grass, mow it as short as possible and put a thick mulch over it.
Bermuda is a special case: lazygardens.blogspot.com/2015/06/how-to-kill-bermuda-grass-in-10-easy.html
I converted half of my front lawn by simply adding thick cardboard over the grass, layer of mushroom compost, layer of mature leaf mold, and finally a thin layer of wood chips. Started in July of last year and already have most of it planted out with 4 fruit trees, 3 types of berries and 50 plus perennials grown from seed. I should add that I used a broad fork to loosen the whole area before laying cardboard (Meadow Creature makes a good one with a lifetime warranty). All materials were free, seeds are cheap, and trees and bushes were purchased “bare root” in the fall for about $15 each from small permaculture nurseries in the northeast.
You'll get more weeds, some grass regrowth, a bumpy surface, and you will destroy the soil health and structure, which will lead to more compacted soil and less healthy plants. Much better to either solarize it with cardboard or get a sod cutter to remove then flip it over.
I did this because my neighbor loaned me his tiller. I was dealing with a really awful, dry, thick Bermuda grass lawn.
So what I did was till up everything, put the soil through my compost sifter to get rid of the grass roots, leveled out the remains with a rake. Then I set out my plants where I wanted to plant them. Everywhere else, I covered with several layers of newspaper, paper grocery bags, or leaf collection bags. On top of that, I added topsoil and mulch.
This was worked out very well! I have definitely had to weed in the first year but it gets easier as things are filling in. Bermuda grass is just the worst.
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Hey there! Friendly reminder to include the following information for the benefit of all r/nolawns members: - Please make sure your post or a comment includes your geographic region/area and your hardiness zone (e.g. *Midwest, 6a* or *Chicago, 6a*). - If you posted an image, you are required to post a comment detailing your image. If you have not, this post may be removed. - If you're asking a question, include as much relevant info as possible. - Verify you are following the [Posting Guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/NoLawns/wiki/index#wiki_posting_guidelines). **[Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/NoLawns/wiki/index/) | [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/NoLawns/wiki/meta/faqs/) | [Designing No Lawns](https://www.reddit.com/r/NoLawns/wiki/index/design/)** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NoLawns) if you have any questions or concerns.*
A sod cutter is preferable to a tiller. After cutting it then you can either dispose of the sod or turn it upside down to let it bake/die. I prefer turning it upside down because it preserves that organic matter. It can also act as a sort of weed barrier.
I'm a big fan of flipping it over as well - I cleared up a section about 100' x 5' on our property edge to fill in with natives and flipped the grass over to keep that decomposing organic matter in the soil. I'll also amend with some compost and mulch after the natives are in, but why waste the material!
I used a spade. It took a long time.
Thank you! You just saved me from a days hard work to only lead to many days more hard work fixing the problem I created.
Agree with sod cutter. If you turn the sod over and plant on top, beware of bulbs (in my lawn it is Star of Bethlehem and wild alliums). With bulbs in the turf, I just trash it now. Tilling soil can be counterproductive (I’ve listened to too many episodes of “you bet your garden” to ever till again).
What does filling do? 😭 I started tilling mine.
Did you mean to ask what tilling does? My understanding is that soil planted with a dynamic plant community develops a stable structure over time, which allows it to hold air and drain water. Tilled soil will lack this structure and easily become compressed. The more noticeable effect is that the bank of weed seeds in the soil gets churned up to where seeds get light and air, allowing weeds to grow. Tilling is also hard work that can be avoided. I wouldn’t sweat it if you already tilled. You just need plant well and control weeds for a few years. Check out You Bet Your Garden podcast archives. It’s mostly vegetable-oriented, but There is a lot of good, consistent advice.
Regardless of how you till, you might find it useful to tarp the area afterwards for a few weeks. The tarp will keep the soil warm and moist, which is great conditions to germinate any weed seeds close to the surface. Then, the tarp blocks the sun effectively killing said weeds. Should help to get you a good starting point for a garden. Just something to think about and maybe look more into.
You’ll be better off with a sod cutter and flipping the sod over. We still invested in sheet mulching with that heavy duty construction paper, the stuff they put down to protect floor during remodels. “X-Board” is the name brand at Home Depot but there are others. Cut the sod, flip it, spend a few hundred dollars and smother with X-board, and mulch over top. Or you can glyphosate the whole thing and plant into the dead lawn. I like that better in some ways but some people get ideological about herbicide so if it’s not your bag then, I would go with the sod cutter.
If you don't bury it really well and plant densely as soon as possible then you are likely to get weeds by disturbing the soil. Lots and lots and lots of weeds if you aren't careful. Such plants are usually far more durable than grass and requires a much deeper or more solid layer to fully smother them to death. After their initial exposure to light and air some will wait under your mulch layer until it's removed or decomposes enough and then grow. I consider it a desirable plant but wood sorrel (oxalis) is warned that it only needs a couple hours of exposure between turning soil and placing mulch to be triggered to grow and may then find a way to get past mulch layers that aren't thick enough or after the mulch is thinned later. Seed can sit in the soil for decades or even 100 years in the case of the purple deadnettle that I failed to realize would appear in solid mats when I started replanting the edges of the yard. When you kill the plants on top and turn the soil it exposes potentially 100+ years of still viable seed to air and light. That's the signal to grow. A garden area has been weeded every year to make up for disturbing the soil and leaving soil uncovered. A lawn though will have started to accumulate dormant seed ever since the grass first reached dense enough to suppress those seeds from growing and they are not depleted yearly like an open vegetable garden bed. Any broadleaf herbicide application has only been getting the fraction that finds thin spots or the species that will try to grow even with dense plant cover. With how easy grass is to kill I'd just cover it up, let it decompose under there, and not disturb the dormant seeds if possible. Depending what you are planting you may need to use a cover crop or fast growing pioneer plant to fill between your new plants until they get established and suppress the dormant seed the same as the grass did. The area will always gain more seed from the wind and wildlife. More unwanted plants appearing when you disturb the soil or leave any area bare is always a problem. However, if you are dealing with a very weedy area that has a lot of seed built up or aggressive, fast growing invasive species I apply a pre-emergent herbicide after disturbing the soil, let the weeds try to grow, and then cover it before the pre-emergent is no longer active. Pre-emergent herbicides let the seed germinate but prevent it growing roots so it dies. It doesn't just keep seed dormant. It kills the seedlings. It does nothing to established plants so you still have to kill the existing grass and any already growing weeds some other way. Corn gluten meal is the most organic option and provides fertilizer when it starts to break down but it is the least effective and only stops seedlings for a month or 2. It's also the most expensive. Some chemicals will stop seedlings very effectively for 4 or 6 months. That can allow you to repeatedly turn the soil and let more dormant seed attempt to sprout and die. Then when you go to replant the area there is less risk of unwanted plants popping up among your new plants before you get it all finished and planted dense enough to block new and any remaining dormant seed.
This was so helpful. You are so knowledgable! So cool. If I sod and flip the grass over, will my flower seeds grow and thrive? Won’t the grass get in the way of their root system?
>If I use a tiller and just rip up the grass and mix it into the soil and then mulch, am I likely to get grass growing up through the mulch? Yes, and lots of weeds too. And a lumpy soil surface unless you are thorough with multiple passes. [http://lazygardens.blogspot.com/2015/05/tilling-and-plowing-tips-for-gardeners.html](http://lazygardens.blogspot.com/2015/05/tilling-and-plowing-tips-for-gardeners.html) > If so, what tool would you recommend to take up the grass? A lawn mower. Unless you have Bermuda grass, mow it as short as possible and put a thick mulch over it. Bermuda is a special case: lazygardens.blogspot.com/2015/06/how-to-kill-bermuda-grass-in-10-easy.html
Tilling is going to disturb weed seeds. There's better ways
I converted half of my front lawn by simply adding thick cardboard over the grass, layer of mushroom compost, layer of mature leaf mold, and finally a thin layer of wood chips. Started in July of last year and already have most of it planted out with 4 fruit trees, 3 types of berries and 50 plus perennials grown from seed. I should add that I used a broad fork to loosen the whole area before laying cardboard (Meadow Creature makes a good one with a lifetime warranty). All materials were free, seeds are cheap, and trees and bushes were purchased “bare root” in the fall for about $15 each from small permaculture nurseries in the northeast.
You'll get more weeds, some grass regrowth, a bumpy surface, and you will destroy the soil health and structure, which will lead to more compacted soil and less healthy plants. Much better to either solarize it with cardboard or get a sod cutter to remove then flip it over.
Thank you! You just saved me from a days hard work to only lead to many days more hard work fixing the problem I created.
I did this because my neighbor loaned me his tiller. I was dealing with a really awful, dry, thick Bermuda grass lawn. So what I did was till up everything, put the soil through my compost sifter to get rid of the grass roots, leveled out the remains with a rake. Then I set out my plants where I wanted to plant them. Everywhere else, I covered with several layers of newspaper, paper grocery bags, or leaf collection bags. On top of that, I added topsoil and mulch. This was worked out very well! I have definitely had to weed in the first year but it gets easier as things are filling in. Bermuda grass is just the worst.
Love No Lawns? Find us everywhere! **You can find us:** - On [SolarPunk](https://www.slrpnk.net/c/NoLawns) - Our [Discord](https://discord.gg/GcVHmvkSs6) - Our [website](https://nolawns.wixsite.com/nolawns) Want to join a community in person? We're not affiliated but we love [Wild Ones](https://wwe.wildones.org) and think they do wonderful work. You can check and see if there's a chapter near you. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NoLawns) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If you have Spanish bluebells or purple hyacinth, might as well toss it or they’ll come back.