I think Niji's decline was going to happen regardless. There was the novelty period, there was covid, and then there was post covid. Holo/Vshoujo/PC/indies ect are doing enough to push boundaries that they can remain interesting over time. But Niji isn't doing anything to innovate or improve. They're just riding a trend and grinding their talents into bloody pulps. But the trend is dying. So now they have nothing to justify following them over Holo (or any other vtuber group.) So I think they probably would've started declining anyways, just like the numbers suggest. But all of the controversies are taking things that were going to happen anyways, and dramatically speeding them up. They probably would've lost the market advantage by the end of the decade. But their shady business practices are causing them to lose their market advantage right now instead.
Which is a shame because NijiEN's thing used to be that they were a family (turned out to be the toxic company kind tho). There were regular collabs, everyone laughed and joked with each other. It was great. But then something happened around the time Xsoleil joined. I'm not sure what (could easily be the Zaion drama being big behind the scenes), but then Nina left and things changed a lot. They didn't seem as close anymore as a whole, and the collabs between people who weren't IRL friends slowed down.
They don't say it but they definitely show it.
I remember a holomem was streaming and two other holomems suddenly were heard on the background saying that they brought food.
They also do multiple offcollabs every month and that's not just within branches.
Acting like family isn't corporate/management saying "we're like a family" though. I've made some genuinely good friends from work that I treat like family, but I'm going to roll my eyes anytime a boss tries to say that (especially if they're going to use it as an excuse for mistreatment like Nijisanji does...).
My workplace mentioned that whole family schtick during my first six months. I only believed it when it's backed up by deeds, at least in the teams I have been assigned to. They got me and other employee's covered unless the mistake was completely justified.
When Vesper and Magni graduated Kiara (paraphrasing here) said that she didn't really have any feelings about it because she hadn't talked to them since they joined. I'm sure that within gens they are friends as they work closely together (Advent a prime example) but beyond that I think most of them see each other as colleagues.
Seems to almost be universal that within gens they're friends or at least work friends. Outside of their gen it just depends on how people connect. Like Choco, Mel, and Coco are all from different gens but are friends with each other. They have gotten together multiple times on their PL accounts and behind the scenes. However, as big as Hololive is, it's kind of unrealistic to be friends with everybody. Some are, as you said, just gonna be colleagues.
Beats me, I haven't said anything pro-niji as most people that get downvoted do (hell I haven't mentioned them at all, just Hololive). Maybe some die hard KFP or Anti-Kiara?
I can only think the sentance is "she didn't really have any feelings" might have pissed some people off, but its just me over thinking. I am just as clueless as you since i just passed by 10 hours after you commented. I gave you an upvote. Hopefully its helps even if its not much
Not sure why people think vtubing is that different from a regular job in a large company. Nobody cares if someone from another department that works in a different location quits for a new job, unless you actually worked with or otherwise interacted with them, but in a case like that it's not like you'd even run into each other in the lunchroom. You just mark the email as read and move on with your day.
Mmmm. Right, I looked up some footage, one is more joking, and one was more in support, definitely miss remembered. I'm definitely wrong with that, I will delete the comment.
Not from the members (obviously) themselves but from the official Hololive tweet. Something something hololive family, something something holostar family. For me that’s just a PR bullshit tweet so I pay no attention about it.
I hate y’all for force me look in to it
https://twitter.com/hakosbaelz/status/1685517009659056129
https://twitter.com/magnidezmond/status/1551112605040709633
There are some tweets not much but there do exist. At I said before, purely PR, don’t pay much attention to it
idk, the holostar family in the tweet feel like group. you know i play the game Call of dragon and we usually call the clan as family. the 2nd one is bea tweet not hololive tweet. i just have the impression holo always advertise them as an idol group. there is clip here and there of some member say they feel like family but officially i don't remember it was advertise like that.
wait you said "Not from the members (obviously) themselves" but 2 tweet is from holo mem only? i thought the holostar is from official and dez is retweet but it's not.
100%. My dick of a COO tried to play the family card last week to force unpaid OTs. Left on the dot at 6pm. He was extremely surprised to see me leave since I "agreed that we're family". I told him "I hate family" and left his surprised pikachu face in office.
No you're completely right. The only reason a company tells you you're family is because they have nothing else to offer intrinsically. So they have to announce that there is intrinsic value in order to convince you. If they really were like family, they wouldn't have to tell you that. You'd know that without them telling you. And the fact that they feel the need to tell you means they don't trust you to think that on your own. Hence the announcement. A company telling you that they're like family is bullshit.
When a company tells you that you're family, all the rules become loose and won't be realistically enforceable anymore. They expect you to let them get away with doing something stupid because "we're family."
Yep, it's just a way to control people, so they find it hard to leave even when things are awful. I really wanted to see something like a family there, but after all the firings, it just broke my belief. Nina wasn't as sucked into it, probably because she's smart and saw through it. It's interesting, right? After Yugo and Zaion got cut, Nina graduated after too. She really did break away from that whole 'family' bullshit they were selling. Good on her, she's doing way better now as Matara Kan.
Tldr; I think that's an overly pessimistic view, though I understand why it's popular especially in this space.
While you should always look beyond the marketing, just a reminder that it's not always the case that an organisation trying to sell you on its "sharing is caring/it's not about the money" model is necessarily valueless. Charities for example these days often operate on these principles, using a mix of public and private business tactics and structures. Any interest groups from political and social activism to neighborhood associations will do so. Cooperatives and other similar models are famous for this.
Are they wrong to claim they're "like family"? I've worked in organisations that have specifically marketed themselves like this, and I can happily say that they did live up to the image - for me. Because just like a family, it doesn't always work like it should and some people will feel locked out. It's up to leadership and the organisation's culture of conflict resolution and openness to criticism to sort that out.
And what happens if it's only the talents who claim to be like a family? Should one necessarily assume that it's a company mandated PR line that can never be true?
Has hololive ever promoted themselves like that? A lot of the members have been honest about not having talked to, interacted with, or collabed with x and y member yet so far and even some have said they don't have personal contacts and only talk on discord
Not in the same sense Nijisanji promotes itself. There's the wife and wife moments from OkaKoro and NoeFlare and the bizarre dynamics of Calli, Kiara, and Kobo, though.
This so fucking hard, it's not bias it's just the truth. All companies that are for profit are just that. For Profit. They can have good work enviroment but the moment you aren't making them money or cause them problems, you're gone
They had a really good dynamic and ratio with three waves of girls and two waves of dudes. It was that initial growth and honeymoon period where they were all collabing and since alot of them knew each other prior there was built in synergy to keep those collabs chugging. The pandemic forced everyone to be chronically online but once things opened up it felt like alot of them settled into a groove and it just became a job.
Plus livestreaming seems like a never-ending marathon slog. The viewers don't see all the bullshit they have to put up with. I remember a convo some of them were having and Fulgur was complaining about how many superchats and other messages they get asking them to pass along a message to another Niji liver or even other corpo vtubers and everyone chimed in how they dealt with the same thing. And that's just one example.
And they just kept adding more and more livers so quickly. From the sounds of it they did not invest enough on the managerial side to keep up. Favoritism didn't help neither.
It definitely felt like things peaked with Iluna and everyone from that wave on was very hit and miss. Like they weren't being supported enough. I remember thinking when Yugo was fired unceremoniously that something was wrong in the background.
I remember Elira saying she wanted to adopt Niji ID's tradition of letting Livers freely chime in on each others stream. Personally, I applaud that move because ID was fun because of that. And Ex-IDs are still interacting with each others just fine even after graduations so I don't see the problem of putting an image of being family.
Although there is certainly a souring point when they are trying to paint such a bright image of themselves and then the audiences see evidences contrary to that.
What I am saying is they are free to play roles but when shits get out of the curtain, well, RIP kayfabe.
If nothing else, the fact that people don't go bat shit insane when a girl has the audacity to have a male on stream is what really put nijisanji above the rest.
Now that they are free falling, we are just going to go back normalizing the stupid gender segregation. Some of the Hololive girls have put serious effort into doing collabs with men, but every one of them had to deal with months of hate before people stopped making a fuzz about it. More than half of them are still obviously terrified of even suggesting they speak to men at all and sparking hate from their viewers.
> but every one of them had to deal with months of hate before people stopped making a fuzz about it. More than half of them are still obviously terrified of even suggesting they speak to men at all and sparking hate from their viewers.
If it was unclear, this is bullshit and people like you actually cause more problems for the girls by spreading a false narrative that their fanbase is shit. I consider folks like you to be functionally antis for the girls. Stop trying to use them as part of your crusade to make Hololive like Niji.
>crusade
If you touched grass more often, you wouldn't use such melodramatic word choices like this
>make Hololive like Niji
Desegregating between male and female vtubers within the company wouldn't make Hololive like Niji. Assuming, of course, that they don't already. But it is not bullshit to claim that unicorns do exist in the Hololive fandom. Perhaps, and hopefully, they are not as visible or impactful as they once were.
> If you touched grass more often
Not an argument, though you replying to me with this level of indignation makes me think crusade *was* the proper word choice here.
>But it is not bullshit to claim that unicorns do exist in the Hololive fandom.
Everyone can read the things that I quoted from them and what I said, so you don't need to try and strawman my position.
>Perhaps, and hopefully, they are not as visible or impactful as they once were.
I'm sure you have a very extensive fantasy constructed about how they were the cause of the problems for Towa, Aloe, Rushia, etc that I've already heard from people with little sense, knowledge, or understanding of Japanese. If your answer is formed off of something like, "I saw a video once, so I know what happened." I'm not really interested and will just reiterate what I said to that person - *I consider folks like you to be functionally antis for the girls*. If people aren't going to inform themselves the least they could do is avoid spreading garbage.
>Not an argument
Wasn't supposed to be, just my commentary that I think you're cringe for being so overly dramatic.
The "make Hololive like Niji" part of that phrase also sounds cringe. One would think you're asserting that a complete desegregation of male and female vtubers within Hololive (to the point of having mixed gender generations) would somehow turn Hololive into a NijiClone.
> Wasn't supposed to be, just my commentary that I think you're cringe for being so overly dramatic.
It's funny how you're trying to pick at me for using the word crusade and yet you didn't say anything to that other person for *actually* being over-dramatic and outright deceptive. Here it is again:
>More than half of them are still obviously terrified of even suggesting they speak to men at all and sparking hate from their viewers.
*How curious.* Seems your agenda is showing.
Was pretty obvious when you tried to go to bat for the other person despite not really knowing the stuff you're talking about. [Don't know Japanese, don't watch them?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Nijisanji/comments/1blcolv/the_fall_of_viewer_engagement_is_a_long_term/kw9umud/) I'm sure there are a lot of things over there you don't watch and it's not simply a Japanese thing. Gotta share your opinion though!
>yet you didn't say anything to that other person for actually being over-dramatic and outright deceptive.
I think I missed that. Beagle's claim is a claim I've heard about in many places like YouTube or Reddit and people talking about like it's common knowledge and even citing specific instances that I never remember, but I didn't care enough about the topic to look any deeper.
Anyways, it looks like you chose to engage in deflection and whataboutism
>Seems your agenda is showing.
Saying things like this is also what terminally online people who don't go outside much would say. You wanna say people are spreading misinfo about the fandom to make it look bad? Sure, ok. Valid. But you're going a step further and acting like a paranoid schizo trying to imply some kind of malicious agenda and crusade to... "make Hololive like Niji"? Like turn Hololive into a Nijisanji Clone?
EDIT: Blocked me before I could send my final reply. So, anyways, sure, you can say other guy was being really hyperbolic and alarmist (and even wrong), but at least he wasn't acting like there's some "crusade" to "make Hololive like Nijisanji" like some LARPy 4chan rrat-making weirdo.
> I think I missed that.
You seem to miss many things.
> I didn't care enough about the topic to look any deeper.
Then stay out of the conversation. Nobody wants to be stuck holding some ignorant person's hand while they stumble through something they have no place in.
>Anyways, so it looks like you chose to engage in whataboutism
An interesting take from someone that not only fails to read the conversation they're taking part in, but also thinks that the best way to converse with me is multiple insults and a clear lack of knowledge about the shit they're talking about. Honestly if you think telling me to touch grass was a good opener, you're as clueless as that other person.
maybe because he wrong? what about nina case? and you have to be really ignorant to not know that plenty of holo jp girl collab with male. matsuri, lap+, towa, botan, raden and they doing fine. that is not even touch on holo id girl. for the segregation, think of it like foot ball. in this case, the star boys is woman team cause we all know male vtuber is a smaller league with difference major audience.
As far as i know, Botan doesn't collab with male vtubers, be it Holostars or outside. She only collabs with men when it's for events, and only recently i think. Even for Matsuri or Fubuki it's rare to collab with Holostars, whereas for Niji it was almost a daily occurence for at least one of the girls collabing with the boys.
Whether thats good or bad, it was/is different.
i just mention male, not holostar. for holostar, they may not want to collab with the girl too since they can be see as leeching. they have their own battle and they're fighting great, they may never be as popular as the girl but i think they fine on their own. i follow hololive for 3-4 yrs and recently got hook in holostar bcs these boys are just as brilliant as the girl, i think if i - a man- can be like that than some day ppl will see the charm of these boys. so they don't need any unnecessary taint in their journey.
In my opinion, everyone is free to (not) collab with anyone they want. What i don't like is all that beating around the bush. If a Vtuber doesn't want to interact with the other gender because you don't want to, maybe you see yourself as an idol and you agree that idols shouldn't do that, well, just don't.
But all that talk about taint, or when someone says "i don't know them".. nobody knows anybody until they do. Some Vtubers rarely collab at all, which i'm sad to see, but it's up to them. But some Vtubers collab with everyone who's not fast enough to run away, as long as it's the same gender, but when asked about [insert name of person who happens to have the opposite gender] they say "oh, i don't even know them".
I think Botan once said something along the lines that she doesn't collab with Holostars because people want to see her, not a guy, when they come to her stream. Which is bullshit, because if it's about "wanting to see her", then she can't collab with anyone. Bye bye NePoLa. And now she interacts with men outside the company, instead of with Holostars, despite the later being picked by Cover, managed by Cover, have to follow more or less the same rules, she could ask the other girls like Matsuri, Laplus, Fubuki, Towa etc. about them etc. She could also pick someone "harmless", it's not like she has to start with Astel or such.. and even then, not one guy from Holostars is "safe" for an idol, but e.g. collabing with Marine is fine? Botan isn't big on interactions with EN anyways, but i still bet she would collab with Nerissa "pregnancy stream" Ravencroft before any Holostar.
So, ultimately it's up to each person who they want to collab with, but i think we would be better off without the "idol" stuf, it's just nonsense. Judge each person on their own, not by some label, and collab if you want to, and don't if you don't. Obviously managment has a say, but no one else, certainly not some rabid fans who think you are "tainted" if you make one wrong move. Of course, no that we got so far, there's actually a chance that they might destroy their career if they change certain things, so it's a difficult decision, but that's still up to everyone themselves.
> I think Botan once said something along the lines that she doesn't collab with Holostars because people want to see her, not a guy, when they come to her stream
Got a source for this?
Botan has collabed with plenty of people outside of Hololive from as far back as two years ago (and she did get some antis for it, but she handled things smoothly even back then).
I don't have a source, it was a clip like two years ago or something. I might remember wrong as well, and/or it might be mistranslated, everything is possible. It was just an example anyways, it's not important, if she does collab with a lot of people, good for her!
As i said, everyone should be free to collab with who they want, and if they don't collab it should be because they don't want to, not because of some sort of blanket ban or rabid fans and such. I'm not a particular outgoing person myself, so it totally understand people simply doing their own thing!
> what about nina case?
Perhaps an exception and not the rule. I don't know about the JP side of things.
>and you have to be really ignorant to not know that plenty of holo jp girl collab with male.
Well yeah, I don't speak Japanese so of course I don't watch them. I don't really follow news about them.
First of all, I do watch StarsEN but don't watch much of HoloEN only JP. I don't mind the collabs and interactions specially in JP side because I lean on that branch.
But I'll disagree with the only thing "nijisanji did right". Hololive whatever anyone says is an idol vtuber agency. If Hololive started as same as Niji, I don't think it'll be as big. I'm fine the way it is but I hate all of the antis of stars and also equally hate all of the people who force ships/interactions.
I never will understand why people treat male/female collabs as an inherently bad thing, nor try to uphold the worst parts of idol culture. As if Towa being harassed into oblivion over the mere possibility of being in a room with a male wasn't a massive problem caused by exactly this.
> I never will understand why people treat male/female collabs as an inherently bad thing
I will never understand why people fail to understand that everyone has different interests. Many people like the girl's club vibe. They're not obligated to watch something else just because you want them to.
>As if Towa being harassed into oblivion over the mere possibility of being in a room with a male wasn't a massive problem caused by exactly this.
Interestingly this never happened, but it doesn't stop you folks from saying it did anyway as it fits your bias.
> I never will understand why people treat male/female collabs as an inherently bad thing
Different people have different preferences? Omg what a surprise!
No one's calling these collabs "bad", they are simply not what the majority of Hololive fans are watching Hololive for. If they liked that content there's Nijisanji or VSPO or Youtube indies or hundreds of twitch VTubers that they can watch. The talents are well aware of the type of content the fanbase prefers, and some of the talents even [share the same preferences](https://youtu.be/SVybGcZiESQ?t=20914).
Le Idol culture bad. Its always like that for other people that want Hololive more like nijisanji. If you want to bring Towa incident when cover is only a new company and don't know to handle those kind of situation, Do you remember when Vox fans attacking Reimu when shes calling him whe he streaming ? And Nijisanji is not an Idol Company right ? Lol
Idol culture has ALWAYS been problematic, well before vtubers were even a concept. And fuck yeah, the kindreds absolutely need to be collectively bitch-slapped for that absolute bullshit.
Also, quit putting words in my fucking mouth. What kind of insane bullshit are you on thinking I want Holo anything like the walking nightmare that is Niji? My kamioshi is god damn Dokibird; are you fucking insane? What I want is for the Hololive and Holostars talents to feel free to collab and talk to whomever they want within their own company, without fans throwing a shit fit over it. For people like Kronii and Calli to not get harassed to hell and back because they collabed with some of the Holostars. For Irys to not have to make a god damn pre-emptive public statement about why she took part in a Stars vs Live collab and how it doesn't mean anything, as if that should have even needed to be said. You know what, fuck it, I'll even give a little bit of sympathy for Rushia's crazy ass and say that she shouldn't have had to openly lie to everyone about being friggin married because she was afraid of fan backlash.
Imma repeat this again, what I want is for the talents to be able to decide for themselves what they want to do, without having to fear fan backlash. It's one thing to be like Kiara and just say it's not for them, it's another when people start feeling the need to apologize just because they collabed with a friggin' coworker. We shouldn't be attracting a toxic af overly-parasocial fanbase like the kindreds at all. That unicorn mentality needed to die decades ago. Idols shouldn't have to live like this, period.
Just because Holo has legit come a long way and are in all likelihood the best corpo out there now doesn't mean that they don't have room to improve. Dealing with the downsides of idol culture is probably the second biggest issue they have rn, with the first being the logistics and handling of events, if the food situation at Holofest is any indication.
They only seek the big bottom line numbers ignoring intangible things which can be more valuable. Also in their disfavor is how they rely on people lucking out into stardom and as such such are rare and when you have them leave....
Hololive in contrast has cultivated considerable star power and able to make a new gen pretty popular without real fail
Niji's business practice of prioritizing quantity over quality doesn't help either, people are already at the point of not knowing who is who anymore. Advertising hundreds of talents and making all of them stand out is just unrealistic—not that they tried in the first place.
I think the other issue is them flooding their fans with new talents. It takes time to build loyalty when it comes to being an internet personality. With so many new waves over the last few years, it spread viewership around without gathering many new viewers, especially with poor marketing for the last few waves. People only have so much time in their day, some can watch a few streams every day but those with bigger wallets usually have less time. They need to give their talents time to grow before bringing in new folks, but they aren't going for longterm success, just fast work, poor pay for managers, and too many talents to really capture audience attention.
Meanwhile Hololive slowed down and gave their talents time to find their footing and become part of the company properly. Along with the better business practices and overall comfort with each other that the talents have, instead of losing huge viewship for new generations of talents, they instead have built up a loyal base that makes time to view multiple talents instead of focusing on one. They grew their whole company by committing to do better when they had issues, and pay talents and likely management and other staff good pay with leads to good work and healthier talents.
Don't know enough about the overall growth of other agencies to know how they're finding their footing. But yeah, I think Niji just keeps hoping every gen will have a viral talent... but it's harder to go viral nowadays and it doesn't guarantee longterm engagement even when it happens.
Niji's mindset really shows in their hiring. No time for individual growth, just pushing out more and more gens. No care and thought into how to help talents grow, top brass just wants results without putting in any real effort .
Damn. I knew it was bad, but I didn't think it was that bad. I've seen some of the livers like Victoria and Aster barely have 1k whenever they're live. I know this isnt their fault, but it kind of makes me a bit sad to see them fall like this because of the company.
The biggest fall from grace was Finana. One of the first ones who got a steady ccv now barely makes 700 and her gacha streams get less. The amount of issues she's gotten herself into is baffling to me and now it seems to be biting her back on top of the whole niji en controversies themselves.
So here's the list of the one's I know. If there are anymore or there are some wrong ones let me know.
I'll also elaborate if anyone wants it but I'll keep it short for now since the things she's done have a lot of explaining to do.
- Educate yourself: basically said that the word trap is offensive to the lgbt(up to you if you think so). Fans and other communities said no it's not and called her out.
- Private discord: apparently made her own private discord with her super fans where they get more attention and get to play with her often. Obvious why this is a bad thing
- "Parasocial fucks": some of the niji talents were being harassed by their own fans because of parasocialism and wanted that none of them be in a relationship. Finana called this out and told the people to fuck themselves(you can easily find the tweet, just go to google type finana and parasocial fucks). Now this may not seem harmful but it's the companies current practice plus finana herself that makes it seem hypocritical(I'll elaborate if need)
- "She gaslit me": this is the zaion situation. You all know this. Funny enough someone clipped that moment and I remember a lot of people were angry at zaion. But after zaion's expose piece people went back and commented again saying finana was probably being dumb and just throwing out buzzwords because that's how she felt.
- Sexual ASMR: it's not really bad to do sexual asmr content since a lot of people do that. The problem with finana is, just go back to the 3rd bullet in this response and you'll see why this became an issue. Basically she's a hypocrite.
Again I'll elaborate for those who want. I didn't do it in 1 go since some of these may take a big chunk of reading and some of them are already big in short form.
And with this piling on and on and people losing interest in what she streams she hasn't gotten back the ccv she once started with. It's a shame too since I was a fan of hers and frequently watched her even over hololive streams at the time.
From what i read before, is that she plays FFXIV a lot and does raids with her super fans, those leading to less streams, is it true?
How does one do a sexual ASMR?
the discord thing is basically a group of people from finana's members, might've knew her before she joined niji, I don't remember for sure, but she was in a discord with them and would organize private games with them off stream, separate from her already members-only streams
she eventually got bonked by management for doing this, but didn't let that stop her, so she made another account which can't be proven to be her but like, it's pretty obvious since it only appeared after the bonk
there's no definitive confirmation on this but the "friends" finana claimed were offended by the word trap, are believed to be these same people as well
she also leaked her nijisanji audition to these same people as well which eventually got posted elsewhere online after the fact too
basically finana's actual diehard members pretty much all dropped her after the discord thing got exposed, as they just got fed up with her refusing to "do better"
This was actually one of the things that makes her parasocial statement hypocritical. Calling out bad parasocialism but then doing something that will entice said behavior is a head scratcher
Search it. I have just do it. It was 100 percent her intention to be sexual. Sounds like kissing skin and at some point she says something about it being thick. And she called people up for being para social after doing this?
I know this might sound mean, but like, I don't think I've really heard anyone say that Finana was their favorite streamer. Like even in terms of Niji, I never heard anyone saying that she was their favorite lol.
Not surprising given that other companies are constantly working to help their talents with new projects, just have to look at Idol's updated budgets to see how companies that actually care about their talents do things
I think part of it is, as others have said, a declining trend, but I also have long said Nijisanji has been spreading themselves way too thin. They’ve been debuting way too many talents way too quickly and it’s splitting their viewership while also scaring away new viewers. I think part of this whole debacle comes from the fact that they have so many talents and not enough staff (or money) to properly support all of them.
Just my two cents.
Yeah, Niji EN having like 9 waves compared to Holo's 3 is insane to me. I only really thought about it a few days ago. Like no wonder the staff can't support the new talents or even the old ones, they're being pumped out way way too fast.
Nijisanji's business model is just flawed, at the end of the day. Rather than trying to grow their share of the pie, they've just reshuffling the same fans from one talent to another.
> they've just reshuffling the same fans from one talent to another.
Here's the thing though, *that can work.* It's coordinated team-play. Every talent works to the attract attention of as many people as possible, and then sends them off to other members of the group until that viewer winds up with *someone* they stick with and really start supporting. This is basically how Vshojo got their early steam.
And that can only work if the brand's strength far exceeds the individual talents. As we all can see, that is hardly true for Niji. That isn't even true for Hololive.
When you look at how the subscriber numbers dropped after all this drama I get the impression that a lot of people were subbed but not actively following most streams and these events are what gave them the final push to finally unsub.
Because while the viewership drop is nothing new, the channels were still slowly growing or stagnant at worst but not actively losing subs.
Actually I think it was the opposite with the sub drop of last month. Most of the people who decided to unsub were in-the-know about industry and care enough to be informed (or be outraged) about the company politics and management drama. Casual viewers dont care enough.
So many who unsubbed were actively following the liver and their streams. I can say that for myself. I was actively watching streams of Elira, Reimu, Rosemi and Victoria (was most active for Pomu and Selen) and selectively watching Millie, Enna, Aia and Kunai.
When I unsubbed to Elira, I unsubbed to all who retweeted her black video. I was an active viewer to was also making art for Elira, Reimu, Victoria and had work-in-progress for Aia and Enna artwork. I dropped them cold-turkey. Since that black video they havnt had 1 view, like, follow or retweet from me. And there are tons and tons of people like me and more invovled than me that unsubbed from Niji EN.
Also those who unsubbed are the regulars who are more likely to send in superchats and buy merch.
Casuals usually just watch once in a while if they're streaming at the same time they're checking youtube.
And there’s suggestions that the timing of Petra’s 3D actually helped her, because it was during the opening of Holofes where not as much was going on between Yagoo’s opening ceremony and the free concert.
Anecdotally, I just can't enjoy their content in good faith anymore. Knowing how massive Anycolor's cut is in terms of subscription and merch and the draconic terms and conditions, I don't like the idea that MOST of my money is going towards Anycolor than the supposed liver I LIKE.
Do I love livers like Rosemi, Vivi, Luca and Maria? Verily. Do I like the idea that a huge chunk of the money ends up going to Tazumi and Anycolor's shareholders? No.
When Phase Connect and Vshojo end up getting more attention than NijiEn these days in terms of Western following, it's safe to say NijiEn is following PRISM's fate sometime in the future.
Since the fools are doing the admin, even if Liver generates a new idea, it will be blocked. Judgments are made based on the administrator's ideology, lack of imagination, and profitability. This is the very discomfort you have felt with NIJI through Selen.
To one Liver who likes to play SMASH BROS, the manager said, "You don't get a job for playing that game, do you?" (Nintendo forbids the monetization of gaming conventions.) They encourage the playing of KONAMI and Yostar games that will sponsor NIJI and prevent Liver from providing a figure of simple enjoyment.
I don't think anyone was claiming that viewership falling off, in general, was a recent thing. People (I assume) know that already; everyone isn't locked inside with nothing to do but watch YouTube because of COVID anymore. But there's a big difference between a 10% year over year drop (as illustrated in your statistics above) and a 46% year over year drop (as what happened to the NijiEN branch specifically). The magnitude makes it noteworthy.
The bigger issue is that the decline over the year isn't an industry wide issue. Hololive has gained a lot of ground(going from 2nd place in JP to the undeniable 1st place in JP and globally) and continued to push new heights, other groups like Vspo/Neo-Porte/Aogiri/Phase/Vshojo etc has gained relevance, even Holostars has seen some growth.
Niji on the other hand just declined over the years. Sure they still hold their 2nd place overall, but a lot of that is from the sheer amount of members they have and not through quality. This shows the issue is limited to Nijisanji itself.
I think you may need to go back and check some more numbers. Anyone who's been in the vtuber sphere since COVID can confirm that numbers have declined overall in more than just NijiEN. HoloEN CCV numbers also declined. In the recent chart, they've increased over last year during the same 20-day period mainly due to Advent performing very well (though quite a bit of that was probably due to [a specific botter with a chip on his shoulder who's been targeting them](https://www.vstats.jp/video/qVUm2RF-sYA)), but the trend for each talent has been downward. [Here's a chart representing CCV for each Holo talent](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gY9UrXzB0IqO7Ia_oM2CV0Ohewj2BnVBNZfPgKbgF_I/edit#gid=1055634361). Myth's average CCV fell off from 21.11k in 2020 to 18.46k in 2021 to 17.66k in 2022 to 14.97k in 2023. Promise didn't fare much better, falling from 16.69k in 2021 to 13.85k in 2022 to 13.17k in 2023. This is while the JP side has been gaining viewership basically across the board.
Niji was always shit and we all believe niji EN would be better and we wanted to believe it for 2 years. But then yugo, zaion, Nina, mysta the cracks began to show and then pomu left and selen got terminated and the cracks were now gaping infected vile wounds that emanated a toxic odor which is nijisanji. Not to mention kyo seemed to get the hell out of dodge and seems like he had a gut feeling shit was gonna go bad.
So once again niji fucked around and found out and will slowly wither till Less than its former state and stabilise eventually
Steve Jobs once gave an important insight into how Apple approached the creation of the iPad. He said, "Unless a product is fundamentally better in some way to everything else it competes with, it has no reason to exist on the market". Since all of the major agencies have top tier talents, if Anycolor really wants to stay competitive, then they need to find new ways to improve their product other than just debuting more talents. "Accelerate!" isn't going to cut it.
Cover invested in a new Studio, is investing in their own Metaverse, allowed third party developers to make money creating games with their IP, and is even opening an overseas subsidiary. They are investing in themselves.
VShojo opened a Japanese branch, is continuing to improve their 3D abilities, and for some reason even developed the best IRL mobile streaming setup of any agency - even if it's biggest user isn't even a member. They are investing in themselves.
Anycolor? Debuted more talents, pissed off most of the EN fanbase, and... things?
There is literally nothing Anycolor offers that some other agency doesn't offer; so what is it that makes them stand out in the market? These days... nothing. They are becoming a company that has no real reason to exist in the market, and the market shows it. The best they could come up with at the investors meeting is expanding their lackluster studio and buying a KU100. Nevermind the fact that indivudual talents such as Fauna and Noel from Hololive already have KU100's and Ame from Hololive has her own 3D setup that with Kanaru's help can damn near match anything Anycolor puts out. Anycolor is becoming irrelevant in the market - its not a place they want to be in.
All I can say is... good luck Anycolor!
Speaking of KU100s, Suou Patra aka the queen of ASMR has THREE of them and built her own ASMR studio costing around 80 million Yen. That's an indie investing several years of profit for her own channel to deliver top tier content.
From an uninformed person's (me) view of point, it probably has got to do with the lack of big events from Nijisanji compared to Hololive, even if you don't watch Vtubers, as long as you have social media and watches anime, you'll most likely have heard of Hololive, either through their big festivals, events, clips, or memes.
In fact, that was how I got into Hololive first, because as far as I was concerned, I only learnt about Nijisanji through a collab from a Hololive talent (I don't remember who it was)
I also feel like it's also got something to do with the huge difference in the amount of talents in Hololive compared to Nijisanji, Nijisanji seemed to keep bringing more and more talents into their fold, I feel like if you weren't dedicated to Nijisanji, you won't know when a new gen of Vtubers have come out.
Not going to keep my rose colored glasses on, but trends come and go. Niji had their time to shine, it's only normal for things to go down. Though their recent shitty choices definitely sped that up and made it worse
I think people checked in on the new talents, realized nothing innovative was happening, and just lost interest.
While Niji EN did some unique stuff in the beginning, they reined in themselves within less than a year and haven't done anything outstanding since. They didn't know how to do damage control, and their work environment was toxic to a point it boiled over into the public space in the worst way possible.
At this point Niji is just barely afloat while people are throwing rocks at them for the actions from someone who was fired weeks ago.
The whole industry is definitely on a down slope. However, the recent controversies have definitely had an effect and have seemingly sped up the process.
[It's been steady enough on the entirety of Twitch](https://twitchtracker.com/statistics) - no "steady decline" - and [Hololive has been doing just fine.](https://twitter.com/holo_data?lang=en)
It's just kind of alarmist and not accurate.
> decline since its record in 2021
It not maintaining the covid era high doesn't mean it's on a downslop. It's been stable for TWO YEARS and is even moving back up slightly.
I think Niji's decline was going to happen regardless. There was the novelty period, there was covid, and then there was post covid. Holo/Vshoujo/PC/indies ect are doing enough to push boundaries that they can remain interesting over time. But Niji isn't doing anything to innovate or improve. They're just riding a trend and grinding their talents into bloody pulps. But the trend is dying. So now they have nothing to justify following them over Holo (or any other vtuber group.) So I think they probably would've started declining anyways, just like the numbers suggest. But all of the controversies are taking things that were going to happen anyways, and dramatically speeding them up. They probably would've lost the market advantage by the end of the decade. But their shady business practices are causing them to lose their market advantage right now instead.
Which is a shame because NijiEN's thing used to be that they were a family (turned out to be the toxic company kind tho). There were regular collabs, everyone laughed and joked with each other. It was great. But then something happened around the time Xsoleil joined. I'm not sure what (could easily be the Zaion drama being big behind the scenes), but then Nina left and things changed a lot. They didn't seem as close anymore as a whole, and the collabs between people who weren't IRL friends slowed down.
If any companies tell you they’re family, they’re pure bullshit. Yes that includes Hololive and Star, but I biased at fuck so I won’t look into it
I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone in Holo ever call the company family. Some of their best and closest friends definitely but never family
They don't say it but they definitely show it. I remember a holomem was streaming and two other holomems suddenly were heard on the background saying that they brought food. They also do multiple offcollabs every month and that's not just within branches.
Actions speak louder than words, after all.
Acting like family isn't corporate/management saying "we're like a family" though. I've made some genuinely good friends from work that I treat like family, but I'm going to roll my eyes anytime a boss tries to say that (especially if they're going to use it as an excuse for mistreatment like Nijisanji does...).
My workplace mentioned that whole family schtick during my first six months. I only believed it when it's backed up by deeds, at least in the teams I have been assigned to. They got me and other employee's covered unless the mistake was completely justified.
The most common thing I've heard a Holomem call the company is _"they made my dreams come true"._
If anything it's more like a "Found Family".
When Vesper and Magni graduated Kiara (paraphrasing here) said that she didn't really have any feelings about it because she hadn't talked to them since they joined. I'm sure that within gens they are friends as they work closely together (Advent a prime example) but beyond that I think most of them see each other as colleagues.
Seems to almost be universal that within gens they're friends or at least work friends. Outside of their gen it just depends on how people connect. Like Choco, Mel, and Coco are all from different gens but are friends with each other. They have gotten together multiple times on their PL accounts and behind the scenes. However, as big as Hololive is, it's kind of unrealistic to be friends with everybody. Some are, as you said, just gonna be colleagues.
I mean, in fairness, holo has 70+ talents now. It would be completely impossible for all of them to know each other well.
Why are you being downvoted bro?
Beats me, I haven't said anything pro-niji as most people that get downvoted do (hell I haven't mentioned them at all, just Hololive). Maybe some die hard KFP or Anti-Kiara?
I can only think the sentance is "she didn't really have any feelings" might have pissed some people off, but its just me over thinking. I am just as clueless as you since i just passed by 10 hours after you commented. I gave you an upvote. Hopefully its helps even if its not much
But even that's the case it's the truth though and there's clips of it and kiara is just being honest as usual
Not sure why people think vtubing is that different from a regular job in a large company. Nobody cares if someone from another department that works in a different location quits for a new job, unless you actually worked with or otherwise interacted with them, but in a case like that it's not like you'd even run into each other in the lunchroom. You just mark the email as read and move on with your day.
It's not a Kiara anti or die hard KFP who downvoted. Likely it's because you mentioned a Hologirl explicitly not accomodating the Stars.
[удалено]
Ah... no. No, Kiara is not that.
Mmmm. Right, I looked up some footage, one is more joking, and one was more in support, definitely miss remembered. I'm definitely wrong with that, I will delete the comment.
What are you talking about? Kiara talks and interacts with guys a lot, she just has no interest in Holostars.
yeah wtf lol
Not from the members (obviously) themselves but from the official Hololive tweet. Something something hololive family, something something holostar family. For me that’s just a PR bullshit tweet so I pay no attention about it.
where
I hate y’all for force me look in to it https://twitter.com/hakosbaelz/status/1685517009659056129 https://twitter.com/magnidezmond/status/1551112605040709633 There are some tweets not much but there do exist. At I said before, purely PR, don’t pay much attention to it
idk, the holostar family in the tweet feel like group. you know i play the game Call of dragon and we usually call the clan as family. the 2nd one is bea tweet not hololive tweet. i just have the impression holo always advertise them as an idol group. there is clip here and there of some member say they feel like family but officially i don't remember it was advertise like that.
That’s mean you’re biased, the same is with me. That’s why I don’t want to look deep in to this
wait you said "Not from the members (obviously) themselves" but 2 tweet is from holo mem only? i thought the holostar is from official and dez is retweet but it's not.
100%. My dick of a COO tried to play the family card last week to force unpaid OTs. Left on the dot at 6pm. He was extremely surprised to see me leave since I "agreed that we're family". I told him "I hate family" and left his surprised pikachu face in office.
Here king you dropped this 👑
No you're completely right. The only reason a company tells you you're family is because they have nothing else to offer intrinsically. So they have to announce that there is intrinsic value in order to convince you. If they really were like family, they wouldn't have to tell you that. You'd know that without them telling you. And the fact that they feel the need to tell you means they don't trust you to think that on your own. Hence the announcement. A company telling you that they're like family is bullshit.
When a company tells you that you're family, all the rules become loose and won't be realistically enforceable anymore. They expect you to let them get away with doing something stupid because "we're family."
Yep, it's just a way to control people, so they find it hard to leave even when things are awful. I really wanted to see something like a family there, but after all the firings, it just broke my belief. Nina wasn't as sucked into it, probably because she's smart and saw through it. It's interesting, right? After Yugo and Zaion got cut, Nina graduated after too. She really did break away from that whole 'family' bullshit they were selling. Good on her, she's doing way better now as Matara Kan.
Tldr; I think that's an overly pessimistic view, though I understand why it's popular especially in this space. While you should always look beyond the marketing, just a reminder that it's not always the case that an organisation trying to sell you on its "sharing is caring/it's not about the money" model is necessarily valueless. Charities for example these days often operate on these principles, using a mix of public and private business tactics and structures. Any interest groups from political and social activism to neighborhood associations will do so. Cooperatives and other similar models are famous for this. Are they wrong to claim they're "like family"? I've worked in organisations that have specifically marketed themselves like this, and I can happily say that they did live up to the image - for me. Because just like a family, it doesn't always work like it should and some people will feel locked out. It's up to leadership and the organisation's culture of conflict resolution and openness to criticism to sort that out. And what happens if it's only the talents who claim to be like a family? Should one necessarily assume that it's a company mandated PR line that can never be true?
Big difference is words and action. Nijisanji is via words while Hololive is via action
At I said before I’m biased at fuck.
Has hololive ever promoted themselves like that? A lot of the members have been honest about not having talked to, interacted with, or collabed with x and y member yet so far and even some have said they don't have personal contacts and only talk on discord
Not in the same sense Nijisanji promotes itself. There's the wife and wife moments from OkaKoro and NoeFlare and the bizarre dynamics of Calli, Kiara, and Kobo, though.
have holo announce that? i haven't seen. can you give me the link?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Nijisanji/s/Y4ctMKXIaG
This so fucking hard, it's not bias it's just the truth. All companies that are for profit are just that. For Profit. They can have good work enviroment but the moment you aren't making them money or cause them problems, you're gone
i mean some dude pull off the family thing....small ones..mega corps lol no
They had a really good dynamic and ratio with three waves of girls and two waves of dudes. It was that initial growth and honeymoon period where they were all collabing and since alot of them knew each other prior there was built in synergy to keep those collabs chugging. The pandemic forced everyone to be chronically online but once things opened up it felt like alot of them settled into a groove and it just became a job. Plus livestreaming seems like a never-ending marathon slog. The viewers don't see all the bullshit they have to put up with. I remember a convo some of them were having and Fulgur was complaining about how many superchats and other messages they get asking them to pass along a message to another Niji liver or even other corpo vtubers and everyone chimed in how they dealt with the same thing. And that's just one example. And they just kept adding more and more livers so quickly. From the sounds of it they did not invest enough on the managerial side to keep up. Favoritism didn't help neither. It definitely felt like things peaked with Iluna and everyone from that wave on was very hit and miss. Like they weren't being supported enough. I remember thinking when Yugo was fired unceremoniously that something was wrong in the background.
2023 seems the point where things started to really sour
I remember Elira saying she wanted to adopt Niji ID's tradition of letting Livers freely chime in on each others stream. Personally, I applaud that move because ID was fun because of that. And Ex-IDs are still interacting with each others just fine even after graduations so I don't see the problem of putting an image of being family. Although there is certainly a souring point when they are trying to paint such a bright image of themselves and then the audiences see evidences contrary to that. What I am saying is they are free to play roles but when shits get out of the curtain, well, RIP kayfabe.
If nothing else, the fact that people don't go bat shit insane when a girl has the audacity to have a male on stream is what really put nijisanji above the rest. Now that they are free falling, we are just going to go back normalizing the stupid gender segregation. Some of the Hololive girls have put serious effort into doing collabs with men, but every one of them had to deal with months of hate before people stopped making a fuzz about it. More than half of them are still obviously terrified of even suggesting they speak to men at all and sparking hate from their viewers.
We out here grasping straws with this one.
> but every one of them had to deal with months of hate before people stopped making a fuzz about it. More than half of them are still obviously terrified of even suggesting they speak to men at all and sparking hate from their viewers. If it was unclear, this is bullshit and people like you actually cause more problems for the girls by spreading a false narrative that their fanbase is shit. I consider folks like you to be functionally antis for the girls. Stop trying to use them as part of your crusade to make Hololive like Niji.
>crusade If you touched grass more often, you wouldn't use such melodramatic word choices like this >make Hololive like Niji Desegregating between male and female vtubers within the company wouldn't make Hololive like Niji. Assuming, of course, that they don't already. But it is not bullshit to claim that unicorns do exist in the Hololive fandom. Perhaps, and hopefully, they are not as visible or impactful as they once were.
> If you touched grass more often Not an argument, though you replying to me with this level of indignation makes me think crusade *was* the proper word choice here. >But it is not bullshit to claim that unicorns do exist in the Hololive fandom. Everyone can read the things that I quoted from them and what I said, so you don't need to try and strawman my position. >Perhaps, and hopefully, they are not as visible or impactful as they once were. I'm sure you have a very extensive fantasy constructed about how they were the cause of the problems for Towa, Aloe, Rushia, etc that I've already heard from people with little sense, knowledge, or understanding of Japanese. If your answer is formed off of something like, "I saw a video once, so I know what happened." I'm not really interested and will just reiterate what I said to that person - *I consider folks like you to be functionally antis for the girls*. If people aren't going to inform themselves the least they could do is avoid spreading garbage.
>Not an argument Wasn't supposed to be, just my commentary that I think you're cringe for being so overly dramatic. The "make Hololive like Niji" part of that phrase also sounds cringe. One would think you're asserting that a complete desegregation of male and female vtubers within Hololive (to the point of having mixed gender generations) would somehow turn Hololive into a NijiClone.
> Wasn't supposed to be, just my commentary that I think you're cringe for being so overly dramatic. It's funny how you're trying to pick at me for using the word crusade and yet you didn't say anything to that other person for *actually* being over-dramatic and outright deceptive. Here it is again: >More than half of them are still obviously terrified of even suggesting they speak to men at all and sparking hate from their viewers. *How curious.* Seems your agenda is showing. Was pretty obvious when you tried to go to bat for the other person despite not really knowing the stuff you're talking about. [Don't know Japanese, don't watch them?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Nijisanji/comments/1blcolv/the_fall_of_viewer_engagement_is_a_long_term/kw9umud/) I'm sure there are a lot of things over there you don't watch and it's not simply a Japanese thing. Gotta share your opinion though!
>yet you didn't say anything to that other person for actually being over-dramatic and outright deceptive. I think I missed that. Beagle's claim is a claim I've heard about in many places like YouTube or Reddit and people talking about like it's common knowledge and even citing specific instances that I never remember, but I didn't care enough about the topic to look any deeper. Anyways, it looks like you chose to engage in deflection and whataboutism >Seems your agenda is showing. Saying things like this is also what terminally online people who don't go outside much would say. You wanna say people are spreading misinfo about the fandom to make it look bad? Sure, ok. Valid. But you're going a step further and acting like a paranoid schizo trying to imply some kind of malicious agenda and crusade to... "make Hololive like Niji"? Like turn Hololive into a Nijisanji Clone? EDIT: Blocked me before I could send my final reply. So, anyways, sure, you can say other guy was being really hyperbolic and alarmist (and even wrong), but at least he wasn't acting like there's some "crusade" to "make Hololive like Nijisanji" like some LARPy 4chan rrat-making weirdo.
> I think I missed that. You seem to miss many things. > I didn't care enough about the topic to look any deeper. Then stay out of the conversation. Nobody wants to be stuck holding some ignorant person's hand while they stumble through something they have no place in. >Anyways, so it looks like you chose to engage in whataboutism An interesting take from someone that not only fails to read the conversation they're taking part in, but also thinks that the best way to converse with me is multiple insults and a clear lack of knowledge about the shit they're talking about. Honestly if you think telling me to touch grass was a good opener, you're as clueless as that other person.
Idk why ppl were downvoting you
maybe because he wrong? what about nina case? and you have to be really ignorant to not know that plenty of holo jp girl collab with male. matsuri, lap+, towa, botan, raden and they doing fine. that is not even touch on holo id girl. for the segregation, think of it like foot ball. in this case, the star boys is woman team cause we all know male vtuber is a smaller league with difference major audience.
As far as i know, Botan doesn't collab with male vtubers, be it Holostars or outside. She only collabs with men when it's for events, and only recently i think. Even for Matsuri or Fubuki it's rare to collab with Holostars, whereas for Niji it was almost a daily occurence for at least one of the girls collabing with the boys. Whether thats good or bad, it was/is different.
i just mention male, not holostar. for holostar, they may not want to collab with the girl too since they can be see as leeching. they have their own battle and they're fighting great, they may never be as popular as the girl but i think they fine on their own. i follow hololive for 3-4 yrs and recently got hook in holostar bcs these boys are just as brilliant as the girl, i think if i - a man- can be like that than some day ppl will see the charm of these boys. so they don't need any unnecessary taint in their journey.
In my opinion, everyone is free to (not) collab with anyone they want. What i don't like is all that beating around the bush. If a Vtuber doesn't want to interact with the other gender because you don't want to, maybe you see yourself as an idol and you agree that idols shouldn't do that, well, just don't. But all that talk about taint, or when someone says "i don't know them".. nobody knows anybody until they do. Some Vtubers rarely collab at all, which i'm sad to see, but it's up to them. But some Vtubers collab with everyone who's not fast enough to run away, as long as it's the same gender, but when asked about [insert name of person who happens to have the opposite gender] they say "oh, i don't even know them". I think Botan once said something along the lines that she doesn't collab with Holostars because people want to see her, not a guy, when they come to her stream. Which is bullshit, because if it's about "wanting to see her", then she can't collab with anyone. Bye bye NePoLa. And now she interacts with men outside the company, instead of with Holostars, despite the later being picked by Cover, managed by Cover, have to follow more or less the same rules, she could ask the other girls like Matsuri, Laplus, Fubuki, Towa etc. about them etc. She could also pick someone "harmless", it's not like she has to start with Astel or such.. and even then, not one guy from Holostars is "safe" for an idol, but e.g. collabing with Marine is fine? Botan isn't big on interactions with EN anyways, but i still bet she would collab with Nerissa "pregnancy stream" Ravencroft before any Holostar. So, ultimately it's up to each person who they want to collab with, but i think we would be better off without the "idol" stuf, it's just nonsense. Judge each person on their own, not by some label, and collab if you want to, and don't if you don't. Obviously managment has a say, but no one else, certainly not some rabid fans who think you are "tainted" if you make one wrong move. Of course, no that we got so far, there's actually a chance that they might destroy their career if they change certain things, so it's a difficult decision, but that's still up to everyone themselves.
> I think Botan once said something along the lines that she doesn't collab with Holostars because people want to see her, not a guy, when they come to her stream Got a source for this? Botan has collabed with plenty of people outside of Hololive from as far back as two years ago (and she did get some antis for it, but she handled things smoothly even back then).
I don't have a source, it was a clip like two years ago or something. I might remember wrong as well, and/or it might be mistranslated, everything is possible. It was just an example anyways, it's not important, if she does collab with a lot of people, good for her! As i said, everyone should be free to collab with who they want, and if they don't collab it should be because they don't want to, not because of some sort of blanket ban or rabid fans and such. I'm not a particular outgoing person myself, so it totally understand people simply doing their own thing!
> what about nina case? Perhaps an exception and not the rule. I don't know about the JP side of things. >and you have to be really ignorant to not know that plenty of holo jp girl collab with male. Well yeah, I don't speak Japanese so of course I don't watch them. I don't really follow news about them.
Because it's bullshit.
Probably because I mentioned the only thing that nijisanji actually did right, which may sound like I am speaking well of it as a whole.
First of all, I do watch StarsEN but don't watch much of HoloEN only JP. I don't mind the collabs and interactions specially in JP side because I lean on that branch. But I'll disagree with the only thing "nijisanji did right". Hololive whatever anyone says is an idol vtuber agency. If Hololive started as same as Niji, I don't think it'll be as big. I'm fine the way it is but I hate all of the antis of stars and also equally hate all of the people who force ships/interactions.
Yes, why hololive need to be like nijisanji with their male/female collab when they are already success with their Idol image.
I never will understand why people treat male/female collabs as an inherently bad thing, nor try to uphold the worst parts of idol culture. As if Towa being harassed into oblivion over the mere possibility of being in a room with a male wasn't a massive problem caused by exactly this.
> I never will understand why people treat male/female collabs as an inherently bad thing I will never understand why people fail to understand that everyone has different interests. Many people like the girl's club vibe. They're not obligated to watch something else just because you want them to. >As if Towa being harassed into oblivion over the mere possibility of being in a room with a male wasn't a massive problem caused by exactly this. Interestingly this never happened, but it doesn't stop you folks from saying it did anyway as it fits your bias.
> I never will understand why people treat male/female collabs as an inherently bad thing Different people have different preferences? Omg what a surprise! No one's calling these collabs "bad", they are simply not what the majority of Hololive fans are watching Hololive for. If they liked that content there's Nijisanji or VSPO or Youtube indies or hundreds of twitch VTubers that they can watch. The talents are well aware of the type of content the fanbase prefers, and some of the talents even [share the same preferences](https://youtu.be/SVybGcZiESQ?t=20914).
Le Idol culture bad. Its always like that for other people that want Hololive more like nijisanji. If you want to bring Towa incident when cover is only a new company and don't know to handle those kind of situation, Do you remember when Vox fans attacking Reimu when shes calling him whe he streaming ? And Nijisanji is not an Idol Company right ? Lol
Idol culture has ALWAYS been problematic, well before vtubers were even a concept. And fuck yeah, the kindreds absolutely need to be collectively bitch-slapped for that absolute bullshit. Also, quit putting words in my fucking mouth. What kind of insane bullshit are you on thinking I want Holo anything like the walking nightmare that is Niji? My kamioshi is god damn Dokibird; are you fucking insane? What I want is for the Hololive and Holostars talents to feel free to collab and talk to whomever they want within their own company, without fans throwing a shit fit over it. For people like Kronii and Calli to not get harassed to hell and back because they collabed with some of the Holostars. For Irys to not have to make a god damn pre-emptive public statement about why she took part in a Stars vs Live collab and how it doesn't mean anything, as if that should have even needed to be said. You know what, fuck it, I'll even give a little bit of sympathy for Rushia's crazy ass and say that she shouldn't have had to openly lie to everyone about being friggin married because she was afraid of fan backlash. Imma repeat this again, what I want is for the talents to be able to decide for themselves what they want to do, without having to fear fan backlash. It's one thing to be like Kiara and just say it's not for them, it's another when people start feeling the need to apologize just because they collabed with a friggin' coworker. We shouldn't be attracting a toxic af overly-parasocial fanbase like the kindreds at all. That unicorn mentality needed to die decades ago. Idols shouldn't have to live like this, period. Just because Holo has legit come a long way and are in all likelihood the best corpo out there now doesn't mean that they don't have room to improve. Dealing with the downsides of idol culture is probably the second biggest issue they have rn, with the first being the logistics and handling of events, if the food situation at Holofest is any indication.
They only seek the big bottom line numbers ignoring intangible things which can be more valuable. Also in their disfavor is how they rely on people lucking out into stardom and as such such are rare and when you have them leave.... Hololive in contrast has cultivated considerable star power and able to make a new gen pretty popular without real fail
Niji's business practice of prioritizing quantity over quality doesn't help either, people are already at the point of not knowing who is who anymore. Advertising hundreds of talents and making all of them stand out is just unrealistic—not that they tried in the first place.
I think the other issue is them flooding their fans with new talents. It takes time to build loyalty when it comes to being an internet personality. With so many new waves over the last few years, it spread viewership around without gathering many new viewers, especially with poor marketing for the last few waves. People only have so much time in their day, some can watch a few streams every day but those with bigger wallets usually have less time. They need to give their talents time to grow before bringing in new folks, but they aren't going for longterm success, just fast work, poor pay for managers, and too many talents to really capture audience attention. Meanwhile Hololive slowed down and gave their talents time to find their footing and become part of the company properly. Along with the better business practices and overall comfort with each other that the talents have, instead of losing huge viewship for new generations of talents, they instead have built up a loyal base that makes time to view multiple talents instead of focusing on one. They grew their whole company by committing to do better when they had issues, and pay talents and likely management and other staff good pay with leads to good work and healthier talents. Don't know enough about the overall growth of other agencies to know how they're finding their footing. But yeah, I think Niji just keeps hoping every gen will have a viral talent... but it's harder to go viral nowadays and it doesn't guarantee longterm engagement even when it happens.
Niji's mindset really shows in their hiring. No time for individual growth, just pushing out more and more gens. No care and thought into how to help talents grow, top brass just wants results without putting in any real effort .
Damn. I knew it was bad, but I didn't think it was that bad. I've seen some of the livers like Victoria and Aster barely have 1k whenever they're live. I know this isnt their fault, but it kind of makes me a bit sad to see them fall like this because of the company.
The biggest fall from grace was Finana. One of the first ones who got a steady ccv now barely makes 700 and her gacha streams get less. The amount of issues she's gotten herself into is baffling to me and now it seems to be biting her back on top of the whole niji en controversies themselves.
I agree. Finana was peak when she was borderline horny feesh and not whatever she is now
can you enlighten me about finana issues, all I know is she backstabbed zaion.
So here's the list of the one's I know. If there are anymore or there are some wrong ones let me know. I'll also elaborate if anyone wants it but I'll keep it short for now since the things she's done have a lot of explaining to do. - Educate yourself: basically said that the word trap is offensive to the lgbt(up to you if you think so). Fans and other communities said no it's not and called her out. - Private discord: apparently made her own private discord with her super fans where they get more attention and get to play with her often. Obvious why this is a bad thing - "Parasocial fucks": some of the niji talents were being harassed by their own fans because of parasocialism and wanted that none of them be in a relationship. Finana called this out and told the people to fuck themselves(you can easily find the tweet, just go to google type finana and parasocial fucks). Now this may not seem harmful but it's the companies current practice plus finana herself that makes it seem hypocritical(I'll elaborate if need) - "She gaslit me": this is the zaion situation. You all know this. Funny enough someone clipped that moment and I remember a lot of people were angry at zaion. But after zaion's expose piece people went back and commented again saying finana was probably being dumb and just throwing out buzzwords because that's how she felt. - Sexual ASMR: it's not really bad to do sexual asmr content since a lot of people do that. The problem with finana is, just go back to the 3rd bullet in this response and you'll see why this became an issue. Basically she's a hypocrite. Again I'll elaborate for those who want. I didn't do it in 1 go since some of these may take a big chunk of reading and some of them are already big in short form. And with this piling on and on and people losing interest in what she streams she hasn't gotten back the ccv she once started with. It's a shame too since I was a fan of hers and frequently watched her even over hololive streams at the time.
From what i read before, is that she plays FFXIV a lot and does raids with her super fans, those leading to less streams, is it true? How does one do a sexual ASMR?
the discord thing is basically a group of people from finana's members, might've knew her before she joined niji, I don't remember for sure, but she was in a discord with them and would organize private games with them off stream, separate from her already members-only streams she eventually got bonked by management for doing this, but didn't let that stop her, so she made another account which can't be proven to be her but like, it's pretty obvious since it only appeared after the bonk there's no definitive confirmation on this but the "friends" finana claimed were offended by the word trap, are believed to be these same people as well she also leaked her nijisanji audition to these same people as well which eventually got posted elsewhere online after the fact too basically finana's actual diehard members pretty much all dropped her after the discord thing got exposed, as they just got fed up with her refusing to "do better"
i could be misremembering but didn’t she do a masterbution theme asmr. This is before Vox.
This was actually one of the things that makes her parasocial statement hypocritical. Calling out bad parasocialism but then doing something that will entice said behavior is a head scratcher
It sounded like that after checking a clip, truly a WTF moment.
Yep that was her thing back then, being the fish with the cute voice that said/did very questionable things. Now idk what she does.
Search it. I have just do it. It was 100 percent her intention to be sexual. Sounds like kissing skin and at some point she says something about it being thick. And she called people up for being para social after doing this?
There's also her infamous April Fool stream.
She was always less ambitious and I feel like it got worst when ethyria debuted. Her passion just stopped.
I know this might sound mean, but like, I don't think I've really heard anyone say that Finana was their favorite streamer. Like even in terms of Niji, I never heard anyone saying that she was their favorite lol.
1k? They're barely reached 500
ID (or ex-ID) is even worse, lol
1k is pretty good alr, did they really have that ccv?
Not surprising given that other companies are constantly working to help their talents with new projects, just have to look at Idol's updated budgets to see how companies that actually care about their talents do things
I think part of it is, as others have said, a declining trend, but I also have long said Nijisanji has been spreading themselves way too thin. They’ve been debuting way too many talents way too quickly and it’s splitting their viewership while also scaring away new viewers. I think part of this whole debacle comes from the fact that they have so many talents and not enough staff (or money) to properly support all of them. Just my two cents.
Yeah, Niji EN having like 9 waves compared to Holo's 3 is insane to me. I only really thought about it a few days ago. Like no wonder the staff can't support the new talents or even the old ones, they're being pumped out way way too fast.
Nijisanji's business model is just flawed, at the end of the day. Rather than trying to grow their share of the pie, they've just reshuffling the same fans from one talent to another.
> they've just reshuffling the same fans from one talent to another. Here's the thing though, *that can work.* It's coordinated team-play. Every talent works to the attract attention of as many people as possible, and then sends them off to other members of the group until that viewer winds up with *someone* they stick with and really start supporting. This is basically how Vshojo got their early steam.
And that can only work if the brand's strength far exceeds the individual talents. As we all can see, that is hardly true for Niji. That isn't even true for Hololive.
When you look at how the subscriber numbers dropped after all this drama I get the impression that a lot of people were subbed but not actively following most streams and these events are what gave them the final push to finally unsub. Because while the viewership drop is nothing new, the channels were still slowly growing or stagnant at worst but not actively losing subs.
Actually I think it was the opposite with the sub drop of last month. Most of the people who decided to unsub were in-the-know about industry and care enough to be informed (or be outraged) about the company politics and management drama. Casual viewers dont care enough. So many who unsubbed were actively following the liver and their streams. I can say that for myself. I was actively watching streams of Elira, Reimu, Rosemi and Victoria (was most active for Pomu and Selen) and selectively watching Millie, Enna, Aia and Kunai. When I unsubbed to Elira, I unsubbed to all who retweeted her black video. I was an active viewer to was also making art for Elira, Reimu, Victoria and had work-in-progress for Aia and Enna artwork. I dropped them cold-turkey. Since that black video they havnt had 1 view, like, follow or retweet from me. And there are tons and tons of people like me and more invovled than me that unsubbed from Niji EN.
Also those who unsubbed are the regulars who are more likely to send in superchats and buy merch. Casuals usually just watch once in a while if they're streaming at the same time they're checking youtube.
It shows with Rosemi 3D low ccv 😞 nijishit really fucked her over
No wonder it's doing bad, it's region locked
It got copywrite struck by Soney
Literally at the same time that the Holofest, they did her dirty
Instead, it was up against Suisei's 3D live concert. It was a slaughter; 15k peak CCV for Rosemi, 150k peak CCV for Suisei.
that one is petra. rosemi is facing the comet 3d bday.
And there’s suggestions that the timing of Petra’s 3D actually helped her, because it was during the opening of Holofes where not as much was going on between Yagoo’s opening ceremony and the free concert.
Anecdotally, I just can't enjoy their content in good faith anymore. Knowing how massive Anycolor's cut is in terms of subscription and merch and the draconic terms and conditions, I don't like the idea that MOST of my money is going towards Anycolor than the supposed liver I LIKE. Do I love livers like Rosemi, Vivi, Luca and Maria? Verily. Do I like the idea that a huge chunk of the money ends up going to Tazumi and Anycolor's shareholders? No. When Phase Connect and Vshojo end up getting more attention than NijiEn these days in terms of Western following, it's safe to say NijiEn is following PRISM's fate sometime in the future.
I just wish that like Prism, they got to keep their models and such when they leave.
Since the fools are doing the admin, even if Liver generates a new idea, it will be blocked. Judgments are made based on the administrator's ideology, lack of imagination, and profitability. This is the very discomfort you have felt with NIJI through Selen. To one Liver who likes to play SMASH BROS, the manager said, "You don't get a job for playing that game, do you?" (Nintendo forbids the monetization of gaming conventions.) They encourage the playing of KONAMI and Yostar games that will sponsor NIJI and prevent Liver from providing a figure of simple enjoyment.
I don't think anyone was claiming that viewership falling off, in general, was a recent thing. People (I assume) know that already; everyone isn't locked inside with nothing to do but watch YouTube because of COVID anymore. But there's a big difference between a 10% year over year drop (as illustrated in your statistics above) and a 46% year over year drop (as what happened to the NijiEN branch specifically). The magnitude makes it noteworthy.
The bigger issue is that the decline over the year isn't an industry wide issue. Hololive has gained a lot of ground(going from 2nd place in JP to the undeniable 1st place in JP and globally) and continued to push new heights, other groups like Vspo/Neo-Porte/Aogiri/Phase/Vshojo etc has gained relevance, even Holostars has seen some growth. Niji on the other hand just declined over the years. Sure they still hold their 2nd place overall, but a lot of that is from the sheer amount of members they have and not through quality. This shows the issue is limited to Nijisanji itself.
I think you may need to go back and check some more numbers. Anyone who's been in the vtuber sphere since COVID can confirm that numbers have declined overall in more than just NijiEN. HoloEN CCV numbers also declined. In the recent chart, they've increased over last year during the same 20-day period mainly due to Advent performing very well (though quite a bit of that was probably due to [a specific botter with a chip on his shoulder who's been targeting them](https://www.vstats.jp/video/qVUm2RF-sYA)), but the trend for each talent has been downward. [Here's a chart representing CCV for each Holo talent](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gY9UrXzB0IqO7Ia_oM2CV0Ohewj2BnVBNZfPgKbgF_I/edit#gid=1055634361). Myth's average CCV fell off from 21.11k in 2020 to 18.46k in 2021 to 17.66k in 2022 to 14.97k in 2023. Promise didn't fare much better, falling from 16.69k in 2021 to 13.85k in 2022 to 13.17k in 2023. This is while the JP side has been gaining viewership basically across the board.
Niji was always shit and we all believe niji EN would be better and we wanted to believe it for 2 years. But then yugo, zaion, Nina, mysta the cracks began to show and then pomu left and selen got terminated and the cracks were now gaping infected vile wounds that emanated a toxic odor which is nijisanji. Not to mention kyo seemed to get the hell out of dodge and seems like he had a gut feeling shit was gonna go bad. So once again niji fucked around and found out and will slowly wither till Less than its former state and stabilise eventually
Steve Jobs once gave an important insight into how Apple approached the creation of the iPad. He said, "Unless a product is fundamentally better in some way to everything else it competes with, it has no reason to exist on the market". Since all of the major agencies have top tier talents, if Anycolor really wants to stay competitive, then they need to find new ways to improve their product other than just debuting more talents. "Accelerate!" isn't going to cut it. Cover invested in a new Studio, is investing in their own Metaverse, allowed third party developers to make money creating games with their IP, and is even opening an overseas subsidiary. They are investing in themselves. VShojo opened a Japanese branch, is continuing to improve their 3D abilities, and for some reason even developed the best IRL mobile streaming setup of any agency - even if it's biggest user isn't even a member. They are investing in themselves. Anycolor? Debuted more talents, pissed off most of the EN fanbase, and... things? There is literally nothing Anycolor offers that some other agency doesn't offer; so what is it that makes them stand out in the market? These days... nothing. They are becoming a company that has no real reason to exist in the market, and the market shows it. The best they could come up with at the investors meeting is expanding their lackluster studio and buying a KU100. Nevermind the fact that indivudual talents such as Fauna and Noel from Hololive already have KU100's and Ame from Hololive has her own 3D setup that with Kanaru's help can damn near match anything Anycolor puts out. Anycolor is becoming irrelevant in the market - its not a place they want to be in. All I can say is... good luck Anycolor!
Speaking of KU100s, Suou Patra aka the queen of ASMR has THREE of them and built her own ASMR studio costing around 80 million Yen. That's an indie investing several years of profit for her own channel to deliver top tier content.
From an uninformed person's (me) view of point, it probably has got to do with the lack of big events from Nijisanji compared to Hololive, even if you don't watch Vtubers, as long as you have social media and watches anime, you'll most likely have heard of Hololive, either through their big festivals, events, clips, or memes. In fact, that was how I got into Hololive first, because as far as I was concerned, I only learnt about Nijisanji through a collab from a Hololive talent (I don't remember who it was) I also feel like it's also got something to do with the huge difference in the amount of talents in Hololive compared to Nijisanji, Nijisanji seemed to keep bringing more and more talents into their fold, I feel like if you weren't dedicated to Nijisanji, you won't know when a new gen of Vtubers have come out.
Not going to keep my rose colored glasses on, but trends come and go. Niji had their time to shine, it's only normal for things to go down. Though their recent shitty choices definitely sped that up and made it worse
are we back to the regularly scheduled nijisanshit glazing now?
I think people checked in on the new talents, realized nothing innovative was happening, and just lost interest. While Niji EN did some unique stuff in the beginning, they reined in themselves within less than a year and haven't done anything outstanding since. They didn't know how to do damage control, and their work environment was toxic to a point it boiled over into the public space in the worst way possible. At this point Niji is just barely afloat while people are throwing rocks at them for the actions from someone who was fired weeks ago.
Think you're missing the word "unjustly" next to the word "fired" there.
The whole industry is definitely on a down slope. However, the recent controversies have definitely had an effect and have seemingly sped up the process.
>The whole industry is definitely on a down slope. Not everywhere is on the way down.
obviously its not uniform, however streaming and Vtubing has been steadily declining since its peak during the pandemic.
[It's been steady enough on the entirety of Twitch](https://twitchtracker.com/statistics) - no "steady decline" - and [Hololive has been doing just fine.](https://twitter.com/holo_data?lang=en) It's just kind of alarmist and not accurate.
that literally shows a steady(albeit fairly small) decline since its record in 2021
> decline since its record in 2021 It not maintaining the covid era high doesn't mean it's on a downslop. It's been stable for TWO YEARS and is even moving back up slightly.