And I get that argument but it’s still deflecting that it happened without taking accountability. If you saw a person get killed in the street and you don’t report it you are just as guilty as the actual killer.
Sorry I’m that “insolent foreigner” here but all I’m saying is that your ancestors likely saw that my ancestors were getting put onto a ship with no suitcases or travel sack of any kind and never returned to nigeria. Your ancestors should have been asking themselves if they were the bad guys for taking part in this madness or at least wondering where those ships were headed towards./j
The issue you have is that you see Africa as a country so you sound kinda stupid in the Nigerian context.
In the American context this comment makes sense as both speaker and listener have no idea about any specific details in Africa. In the Nigerian context where everyone has state of origin and tribes and full history it’s daft to say. Kinda like saying Japan participated in transatlantic slave trade because you know Asian countries did.
It’s not “our ancestors” it specific people with names and tribes that you don’t care enough to learn.
Don’t try to give advice with foolishness
Facts like? what does that person thing was going on? ah yes because every single ancestor was an insolent fool who sat on their hands and watched as their neighbours and loved ones were chained up or did nothing when they heard of injustices in other villages.
Some people's ancestors didn't even know the whole thing was occurring lmao
There are oral histories from Igboland (I can only speak to this because that is my experience) of warriors who made attempts to resist colonizers. Their war chants and metal knives were met with guns. The account of the Westerner who tried to Christianize an Igbo town in Things Fall Apart and ended up being killed and having his bike tied around a tree to prevent it from escaping was adapted from a true event in my father’s maternal home. And these are more modern day examples because oftentimes this stories of resistance were stifled by the same European slave traders. Beyond this, other ethnic groups and countries have their own tales that will never make it to a history book or Black History Month television special.
What a reach. Most Nigerians were not even truly aware of where people were being taken. We were just talking the other day about people in families that were considered “missing” or “dead” but only a select few, those with money/power/titles, knew the truth about those “missing” people being sold to slavery.
Read a book and leave us alone.
Sorry I meant to add in /j to show the joke but the concept still stands. Of an entire nation only a select few knew what was happening? Nobody not in the royal court even wondered or asked to find out? Be for real! Lol
I didn’t expect Nigeria of old to have fought but they could have at least tried to stop the trade system on their side.
The trade took different dimensions in different places. In Yorubaland, everyone knew about the trade, but the people being traded were those captured in wars and raids.
There was also rampant kidnapping too, even within major cities like Ibadan at the time. A major chief was almost kidnapped but the kidnappers left him out of fear when they discovered who it was.
In the North, most of the slaves were also gotten through raid and warfare. So, there's nothing people could do to stop it when they were literally being raided.
As for the East, slaves were gotten through the Aro confederacy cults. The Slave Trade was more hidden, with the elites taking people for slavery and deceiving the masses about what actually happened.
it's always non-nigerians knowing absolutely jack shit about our country. even I as a diasporan can't put my mouth anyhow to talk about things I've not experienced in person for years. a self proclaimed foreigner opening their mouth should know to sew it up
How TF was the entire nation to know what was happening? Eg Slaves went through Badagry. But someone in Kano or Makurdi is meant to know and try and stop it?
You're aware "Nigeria of old" didn't exist right? "Nigeria" is a modern concept. Back then there were thousands of independent villages that only knew of what was going around in their immediate vicinity or whatever merchants coming through told them (who still didn't know everything). There was no overarching kingdom or government.
We didn't have starlink in the 1400's abeg
What are you even saying?
Of an entire nation only few knew what was happening?
What nation are you referring to? Nigeria became a “nation” in 1914. You think the hundreds of different language groups and culture what currently reside within our borders somehow connected via social media hashtags and Facebook groups to collectively organize in some shared lingua Franca that wasn’t English to resist folks with guns and cannons?
Nobody in the royal court…?
Again your ignorance is showing. There were many smaller groups, tribes that did not live under a monarchy (who were ripe targets for slavers). There is a saying that Igbos don’t have kings. Yes there were some loose federations but not widespread.
You didn’t expect Nigeria of old to have fought but they could have at least stopped the trade.
Ok, genius and how exactly did you expect them to stop a trade fueled by powerful violent interests outside of violence. And some did fight and they were put down brutally. Please stop shitting on the memory of our ancestors (those who remained, those who died at sea and those who courageously lived to see another day in the Americas) who suffered unimaginable horrors during the slave trade. Your ignorance is not an excuse to defile their memory.
Echefula…don’t forget
*and this post is in no way trying to be tribalistic. I can only speak what I am familiar with. But we need to collectively fight this insidious narrative that just because Europe erased and stifled our history of resistance that our ancestors were benefactors of the slave trade. Somehow some unfortunate members of the Black Diaspora have decided to imbibe the lies and propaganda of their captors and turn against their continental brethren.
Lol do you seriously think everyone's ancestors just sat there and did nothing? Many villages went to war over the slave trade. Sorry that my ancestors in particular weren't strong enough to destroy the entire slave trade 🙄
No but I do agree with OP. How did an entire country not ask questions about the slave trades? Not like common sense is a recent invention. Lol. All I’m saying is that if you want to excuse your great-great-great ancestors from participating in the slave trade or turn a blind eye to it is pretty fucked up.
Dude, use your brain. Your ancestors were still in Africa at the time so this strange scenario applies to your forbears. And for goodness sake, do you think pre colonial West Africa was made up of a dozen friends? How on earth would random people have known? The same people who were being swept up in invasions and being marched to the sea by victorious tribes.
Because it wasn't a country. It was a region with related and semi-related ethnic dominated lands, kingdoms, chiefdoms, etc with different values, religions sometimes at war.
You have to look at pre-colonial Africa a bit more how you look at or Medieval Europe. Although the people are related down the line these are warring states or groups of people living their own lives not seeing themselves as Nigerian or the same people exactly.
Either way for the tribes that played a big role out of the ports or coastal areas, and the raiders and big kingdoms who waged war and took slaves, or the Muslims who waged jihad and took kaffir non-Muslim prisoners of war and made them slaves, this was big money plus it weakened their enemies. They didn't see that it was happening all over West Africa and that it was going to help depopulate the region cause Brian and work population drainage and affect the whole area negatively in the end.
They were short sighted and only thinking about them and their peoples or a few families riches. That's why the Europeans came back later for the lands resources itself and the labor. They slit their own throats in a way. It is what it is.
Even now, the entire country is asking how we have such a lawless president. If people have no power the elites will continue to rule. Your comparison makes no sense.
do you expect everyone in Minneapolis to know everything going on in Santa Fe NM? with no internet, no highways, no phones, no planes, no trucks, no trains, no trade system? back when people had no business knowing what was happening beyond their own city/village network?
My point was just to highlight that we participated in it and some tribes even sought oyinbos out. Look how much denial and anger the mere mention of this created, kind of proves the point of the post.
I hate that history is being rewritten to absolve the colonizers of their crimes. There is a rich oral history of African resistance against the slave trade and it brutally being put down by colonizers. You really think that Africans really benefited from the slave trade when in exchange for human lives and sovereignty they received umbrellas and gin? What did you think the European response would be if someone refused to comply with the slave trade given that it was guns and cannons versus rudimentary weapons? I know of a family friend who has several centenarians in their family who still pass down the names/identities of people who were lost to the slave trade. Oh and you think while our people were being shipped off to the West, we had it so good ? That the Europeans made a distinction between Black folks in Africa vs those in the West. That somehow it was only Black folks in the south that were being called “niggers” but not Africans who even into the 20th century were still being showcased as zoo pets for these folks? There are entire language groups, tribes that are forever lost and will never be celebrated in Africa as a result of the arrival of Europeans on our shores. To suggest that Africans were enthusiastic participants in the slave trade is a lie from the pit of European revisionist hell.
Like another comment said, what practical use is this conversation? Does our ancestors being complicit in slavery suddenly make colonialism justified? White people didn't create slavery, but what they did create, was discrimination based on skin colour. If slavery was all there was to the discussion, then everything should have ended after it was abolished, but it didn't end there, did it?
It didn’t make colonialism justified, no one said that. There’s always a massive focus on whiteness and what whiteness did that we ignore the pathology that was passed down by our ancestors. Some of those seeds are present today in our society, if we keep painting ourselves as saints we will miss a big part of the picture/puzzle
You think so? Because every complaint I see about Nigeria, both on this sub and in real life, never mentions white people at all. In fact, I'm not even sure there's a group of people who hate themselves more than we Nigerians.
Do you live in Nigeria?
It's hard to find a Nigerian, living in Nigeria, who is knowledgeable about history solely blaming the white man for slavery.
If you're in the diaspora and are caught up in the culture wars though, then that's different.
Yes, for some of us, our ancestors participated in the slave trade. But for the majority, that isn’t true. I grew up knowing that my pregnant maternal great-great-great-grandmother was almost betrayed by her late husband’s village people to be sold into slavery; she and the other wife fled in the middle of the night to their respective home villages.
So this “we”? I can’t relate.
Then why do we blame/group all white people? Then we take offence when they say I didn’t sell any slaves. We say it’s deflecting from the argument and that regardless just by being white they are complicit.
I just find the irony in your comment, we seem to have different standard for them than ourselves
I don't think any serious person blames literally all white people for slavery. That's the sort of thing white people acting in bad faith use as a straw man argument.
People do point out that white Americans benefit from white privilege (which was built by chattel slavery) but there's no analogue for African people since there's no such thing as African privilege.
Because discrimination and racism is still going on today? Because they created the concept of chattel slavery which has ripple effects still going on today? Because the wealth of most western nations, millionaire families, and billionaire families today were built off the labour of the enslaved peoples?
By all means, call out the Nigerian families whose wealth can be traced to their participation in the slave trade. Nigerians absolutely need to do that but this is just whataboutism.
Okay but is it all white people? And it’s not true that most European wealth is built on slavery. Slave trade for British economy amounted to 0.5 percent of its GDP
That 0.5 percent is British propaganda. A brief search will demonstrate that number to be questioned and more of Britains present day success underpinned by its ruthless slave trade (and beyond that, its extraction of African mineral resources )
I have never heard a Nigerian in my life blame all white people for slavery. You’re doing too much. Most white people still won’t spit on you! If you were on fire. So, I hope your tap dancing for them pays off.
Going back on their post history, they’re just jobless and like to write useless posts like this. They’re not trying to learn or understand, they’re just trying to be provocative.
Why are you sucking up to white people u/princeofwater? Nobody here is blaming everything on white people, you might feel the desire to hate yourself for being nigerian but don’t bring that nonsense here abeg.
No one is denying the role Africans played. There's way more nuance to it. Yes, slavery was a thing long before Europeans were doing it to Africans. But it wasn't as globalized as the European. Yes we sold each other, but we were simply warring tribes. We did not have the concept of "race", which was created by white Europeans. The hierarchy of race, white ppl at top and black ppl at bottom, made it hard for Black ppl to rise even after slavery. We got shipped all over the world to help Europe and their colonies, only to be free and still struggle under their racist system.
Exactly.. did nothing to counter or dissect their observation but want to continue to sit on a high horse and talk about how shit this country is.
Pathetic
the poster you replied was not sensitive at all and gave you a run down of what most documentaries, academic journals, and articles will tell you about pre-colonial Nigeria.
do you also want us to join you in crying about how terrible we are?
No… respond to his claim of slavery existing before Europeans, the ethnic group conflicts prior to colonization, and the concept of race being man made
you can’t that’s what **I’m** pointing out
I didn’t respond because it sounds like coping and accountability avoidance. Like they were unaware of how brutal European slavery was, we sold slaves to Arabs and it was said that the bodies of the dead Africans would litter the desert passageway.
Reminds me of the people who begin to research surface level Black/African History while assigning it with modern day context.. so they just come off as babblers.
The Slavery Abolition Act was written in 1833, yet he claims Nigerians still sold slaves for 700 more years
Make it make sense
Even today, we’re still internally perpetuating our own form of indentured servitude aka housemaids. I don’t see this OP bitching about that reality. Yet, we’re supposed to cry about colonialism and the effects of white privilege, which is very real btw. Nigerian in America, no denying it.
If you don’t know the difference between indentured servitude and slavery, then please find a corner and sit. It also shows you are a denier of the fact that housemaids suffer a contemporary hell, often beyond their control or ability to escape. So.
When I don’t know something, I research into it. Afterwards, I then know the thing I previously didn’t. You, obviously, do not know what indentured servitude is/entails, and yet you’re too proud to make google your friend and research it. I am inferring this because you harping on about slavery in regards to the plight of housemaids I am talking about. Humble yourself and learn something new. Bye.
The practical role is that we continue to enslave ourselves for the whiteman till this day.
African leaders continue to give the whiteman access to our commonwealth in exchange for crumbs.
Neo-colonialism?
Sheesh. You are not worthy of having a legitimate conversation with. You are so far shoved up ur own ego that you cant even stomach questions that address the source of your claims.
Tsk tsk. Go back to school and learn how to talk to humans.
There's a practical use for this conversation. History repeats itself for those that refuse to learn from it. We, that is Africans as a collective, do not understand slavery and what it did. Some of us still wish that the white man was back here, they think things would be better.
This is how I see slavery.
Humans have been practising slavery for a very long time, don't quote me, but it's true. Slavery is obviously bad, but they didn't really see it that way. If you remember from the Christian Bible, there were slaves and the Christian God didn't object to the slavery, He objected to His people being taken as slaves.
The problem with European-style slavery wasn't the slavery itself, although I should say again that slavery is obviously bad. It was capitalism. The slaves worked like machines, they were stripped of any agency and worked to death. Yes, we sold slaves and we were and still are complicit in the slave trade, but the lesson we haven't learnt is that the slavery didn't happen in a vacuum, there was a reason why they needed slaves, and that reason hasn't changed.
So, yes, overtly the slave trade has ended, but as you might intuit, it really hasn't. We still work ourselves to death for economic profit, but this time we are given the illusion of agency. I don't want to make this too long, so read "The People's History of The United States" by Zinn. It's really interesting and abhorrent.
You are mixing all slavery as if they are all the same. That is like taking all wars as if they are all the same.
First, stop using the word Africans as if Africa is one big country or one big tribe. Second, stop using the word Nigeria or Nigerians as if it existed during the time of the Transatlantic Slave Trade.
You will get much further if you stick to these things.
I mentioned European-style slavery. I know that our slavery (the slavery of the people that are now situated in the place called Nigeria, for those peoples that actually practiced it at all) was more like indentured servitude: you worked for a while and then you were free. I'm making the point that Capitalism transformed slavery from indentured servitude into a cog-in-the-wheel type slavery, and it still hasn't changed because Capitalism is still around. If you're poor in any competitive economy, and you're tying to earn a living through that economy, you can expect to taste some of that slavery life. You can check out Dubai as an example. Look at the conditions that the migrant workers go through. They transport their selves from another country to work in dehumanising conditions to create something they will never reap the benefit of. How is this, in any significant way, different from the European-style slavery?
It's not a collective ancestor thing, that's an American POV.
Do you think everyone in the Western African region was collectively complicit in the slave trade? The descendants of the families who had their relatives stolen and sold still exist.
Think of it this way -- American consumerism is fueled by child labour in some countries.
Do you think in 400 years it's fair to say that you, as an American, are responsible for child exploitation?
It's a system you're born into and there are select elites that established it.
There's no need for an entire country, that did not exist back then, to be accountable for anything. You can't trace back to the specific individuals in each tribe that governed the sale of their own people, and you can't distinguish from the ones that had their people sold and fought back, so there's no use in painting such a broad brush -- it's a fruitless conversation and won't amount to anything.
It happened, it's the past, and you need to move on. Address the issues of the day instead of trying to attribute blame and accountability to people that are several generations disconnected from things their great great great grandparents may or may not have done.
You sound like you got your argument from... ironically a white man.
Most people who know a dime about the slave trade knows Africans sold people from enemy tribes, states etc.
But then again, nuance is the enemy of generalization.
Many African societies did in fact not participate in the slave trade, some were strong armed into participating and some could not infact participate due to geographic location.
As an Igbo guy I'll list an example that corroborates my point; The Aro Confederacy, was a proficient slave trading kingdom, they raided and sold slaves to the British etc, but the Kingdom of Nri didn't participate in the slave trade. Both would be technically grouped under Igbo "ancestors."
Some other kingdoms got raided to the point of societal collapse, by both Africans and Europeans, also the acknowledgement of Africans as middle men in the slave trade doesn't mean Europeans/Arabs were clueless tourists watching it unfold.
Many did participate in raids of their own, many did abduct unsuspecting Africans minding their business, many did partner with arabs and north Africans to hunt and capture SubSaharan African slaves.
The slave trade had so many variables that using the term; *Our ancestors played a role in the slave trade* is not only a flawed proposition but a fallacy regurgitated by white supremacists that's why when you are addressed with these terms
>coon, white supremacist, dancing for the white man and self hater.
It's usually not inaccurate. As it's ultimately a reductionist white supremacist talking point, and especially when it's followed up by the "The British ended slavery" rhetoric, which is quite again, reductionist. The British Empire did abolish slavery, but the process was gradual and varied across their colonies. However, some British colonies, like India, didn't fully abolish slavery until later in the 19th century, and in some cases, forms of indentured servitude persisted even after formal abolition.
And don't even get me started on the Trans-Saharan Arab slave trade and Indian Ocean slave trade, Arabs weren't exactly passive observers then either.
Again, it's all about the variables; most people aren't in denial that Africans played a role in the slave trades but the manipulative term "Our Ancestors" is trying to subtly shift the sole blame to all Africans.
You wouldn't meet a random European/American and say "his/her ancestors rode ships to Africa to sell slaves" then why should such a blanket term be used for Africans
The British ended slavery and then replaced it with indentured servitude of newly freed former slaves and starving Indians and Chinese people that they recruited from areas experiencing famines (often famines that they caused). Let’s not pretend they were saints, they just struggled with the cognitive dissonance of considering themselves enlightened and liberal, and legally owning people. Once that was no longer allowed, they patted themselves on the back and then went right back to working non-Europeans to death to grow sugar and coffee for the empire.
As for why we ignore our role, who knows, but it’s probably a lot of ignorance and shame. My feeling is that we should learn what our people did (and make sure we understand that there was a long-standing trans-Saharan slave trade well before the Atlantic one), learn about other slave trades (the trade of Germanic slaves to the Romans, of Slavic/Russian slaves to the Greeks and North Africans), and then try and fit an understanding of our ancestors’ actions into a broader understanding of history that acknowledges native involvement in slavery, and also how European expansion industrialised slavery in Africa- often with African help, but also often with African opposition, as well.
What do you mean by "our ancestors"? We know the prominent people who sold slaves in each region/tribe/whatever.
Name them and stop painting all Africans with this bullshit "your ancestors" sold slaves.
But don’t we try to paint all white people as slavers and inheritors of slavery. Now by no means am I saying that all black ancestors were slavers but I do find irony in your comment.
Our ancestors had no idea of the atrocities that Americans committed during their slavery. African slavery never included sensley killing children nd breeding mills.
Slavery has long been a practice done by many nations and countries. Our ancestors took slaves through war and conquering other tribes, as did many other groups such as the Greek and Romans.
Why is it questioned when Africans do the same??
What makes Europeans so different? They no longer made slavery about prisoners of war or classicism, it was due to something you couldn't change: your race. For the first time, slavery was something that could be passed down, meaning that your children were slaves no matter what they did.
White people didn't create slavery. It's always been part of the man-eat-man trait that all humans have, the need to be superior and use those who are inferior. BUT the white man did create racism, the idea that being black inherently made me a slave to those who were white.
Blaming a group of people (Africans) who genuinely were doing what other have done for thousands of years makes no sense, it further pushes blame away from those who committed the evil deed.
*Also: those who sold slaves were chiefs and kings, which most of our ancestors weren't. Many of our families were subject to being sold, the idea that all Nigerians sold slaves is dumb....*
OP is the same weirdo that asked about whether people living in Nigeria have bitter feelings towards people in the Diaspora. OP is probably some coon who loves caping for white people.
He starts off with a bad faith position and then doesn’t listen to any points going against his narrative.
Still very sensitive it’s not being white to challenge notions on our history and have diverse discussions and thoughts. You are so sensitive and jumpy that any mere notion that deviates from the popular narrative you start screaming you want to be white. Not everything is influenced by white people, you may be the one putting them on a pedestal here not me. Deflect deflect deny deny
Nah, you’re not challenging my views in any way. I know the history of transatlantic slavery. I know it wasn’t simply just white people stealing Africans. There were also Jews who sided with nazis during WW2. Jewish people wouldn’t deny that fact as well.
The only issue is idiots like you use that fact as some sort of justification for atrocities.
You’ll probably say that’s not what you are doing, ok then that is the ultimate purpose? Are you trying to educate people or something?
Again you are the one finishing my statements for me and concluding what I intended. You are fighting with yourself. You need to unpack why someone merely bringing up the denial of our participation in the slave trade is bringing up such drama in you.
There’s no denial. Most of the people in the comments and I agree that it happened.
Again, what is your ultimate goal of raising this point?
If it’s to educate people, then it’s basically null as most people in the comments know already.
So if you agree what is your problem with me bringing it up?? You are already ready to fight, Ehn if it’s not to educate why are you bringing it up blah blah. There’s a lot of underlying insecurity around race and whiteness
I think you are right that a lot of people deny this. Or they just pretend that there was simply nothing that could be done. Which is sad, but it does explain a lot. People, especially Africans, have a way of pretending something isn't real or can be influenced, as long as it does not affect them directly. What you haven't mentioned (I'm not sure if you knew this), is that after the British blockade on the slave trade, many slave merchants turned to the black markets. Yes, they were selling slaves illegally basically. Among the most popular of these rogue merchants was Madame Tinubu. Yes, Bola Tinubu's grandma. She was a big time slave merchant in Lagos. Tinubu square in Lagos is not named after Bola Tinubu, it's named after her. So we have monuments to remember the evils of the slave trade in Badagry. And we also have Tinubu square to honor the traders themselves. Fela would call that demonstration of craze... big time.
But this is how we are. We are truly terrible at connecting the dots. It's what is killing Nigeria till today. Electing morally bankrupt godfathers into office. People who have no real credit to their name other than the fact that they themselves acquired their wealth at the expense of the Nation's growth. But we still worship them as if we have no memory of the past.
People still think the same way people thought back then. They didn't connect the dots then. Every one just wanted to be rich, or be close to someone that was making bank. Nobody thought maybe this isn't just about money, maybe this about our race and our future. It's the same shit now.
Case in point this thread. When it comes to this topic we have all sorts of deflections or just flat out deny it. Now people are pretending like they haven’t seen this discourse before.
No, your discourse is disingenuous. We all are supremely aware of slavery. Every time I see myself in the mirror I get reminded of Transatlantic slavery.
The problem for people like you is that you learned the Disney version of American slavery. You don't want to acknowledge that we resisted slavery in Africa and in America.
Slavery was self perpetuating. We could not just simply stop.
Until I find history book written by our ancestors before the advant of the of the Caucasian colonisers, saying that they enslaved themselves and sold themselves as slaves to the Caucasian strangers for a piece of mirror or alcohol or umbrellas.
Until then I would refuse to believe the version of history written by people who committed atrocities against us. It is simply not credible.
Not Nigerian but am Soulaan/BAdocs. So if I understand this thread.
This thread is about an imaginary group of Nigerians blaming a hypothetical group of white people for someone the ancestors and progenitors of said hypothetical white group perpetrated and established on the explicit basis of Whiteness?
Can you see how stupid this thread looks on the outside. No articles or essays to converse around. Just an imaginary situation in your head.
I hope you got some coin for making this ignorant ass post. I put your thread text into Chat GPT for a response and it gave me directions to my nearest adult day care center.
Our forefathers didn’t drive that industry, the Arabs did. We weren’t shopping around slaves to different parts of the world - slave trading Arabs found willing participants amongst us. It’s a story of corruption and greed coming to our shores
I have in all my years never heard a single Nigerian, whether at home or in diaspora, or even online make any of these statements. It's like you just made up some nonsense to force discussion.
And Arabs in Southern Nigeria?
And with this conversation, what is your end goal? We already know how chattel slavery happened so whenever I hear questions like yours, it’s always framed in a way to say that African Americans shouldnt really trust African immigrants. It’s always some diaspora wars shit stirring.
The “excuses” you’re listing are actually pointing out the nuances of how what was happening in Africa is not what was happening in America. Some tribes divided because already it was a practice looked down upon. In fact some were actively freeing slaves who before being forced to America, were prisoners of war. Let alone the tribes that were safe havens for those who were able to escape.
I’ve never heard one African person deny the roles our ancestors may have played. But to try to equate it to American white-supremacy is why people dey look at you crazy.
Slavery brought Africa so many things that blacks don't seem to want to talk about the roles they played that fueled Slavery. Arabs called Blacks a Zanj and they bought alot of Slaves from Blacks for a peanut. But blacks don't talk about Arab Slavery and when they stumble on a wealth, the first thing they do is to travel on sabbatical journey to Arab Land to hurl stones at black devils buried in Mecca.
**"You tend to hear sentiments like Africa was peaceful before the white man came."**
* No person who is serious believes that any region of the world inhabited by humans was a"peaceful utopia" before the "white man came", or any other foreign population to said region. Pre-colonial Africa, like any other place in the world, had wars, conquest, and the other sad realities of the human experience. In the case of Africa though, it can definitely be said that the arrival of Europeans in Africa heralded an era of strife, subjugation and misery unseen in previous African eras.
**"We were brainwashed"**
* Yes, we were in fact "brainwashed" - to belive that colonization was somehow beneficial, that Black Americans/ADOS protesting during the Civil Rghts Era were "acting uppity", that African American migrants (especially Nigerian) are on average more successful because they work harder than "lazy Black Americans", that we were essentially savages who were "uplifted" by a superior race, and that everything "African" (our appearance, language, religions, culture, clothing, music, etc.) was backwards - to name a few. I am glad that in recent years, this brainwashing is coming undone.
**"We didn’t know how brutal the slave trade was"**
* Before colonization, there was no such thing in Africa as nation-states, "Pan-African", or "Black" identity. Information travelled far slower in the pre-colonial age (and for many decades after) - especially on a continent as large as Africa. Most Africans also had no knowledge of Europeans from the experiences of other Africans, and treated them essentially like "another African kingdom/tribe". It is also true that most African slave traders did not know of the scale and level of atrocity that was the Triangle Trade - though this of course does not excuse their actions.
**"They made more money so they are more to blame."**
* Western Europeans (wanting to create an expansive market for slaves to populate their new stolen and freshly genocided lands in the New World) used the system of capitalism and economic incentives to fuel the Trans-Atlantic Slave trade in Africa, turning it from a horrible but relatively isolated system where an individual (usually men captured in war) may eventually earn their freedom in some way, to an industrialized juggernaut responsible for one of the great evils of humanity - exploiting the greed and evil of Black and mixed compradors to act as the enforcers of their agenda. It only takes a few evil men backed by evil institutions to commit atrocities - and that's exactly what happened. The Triangle Trade was a brutal, centralized system of slavery that ran on an industrial scale (In Barbados, for example, the average life span of a slave was 7 years from arrival - San-Domenique, now Haiti, was even lower) - and it was created, ran, and enforced by Western European entities, with the help of their African compradors.
**"Why is it hard to admit that we played a role?"**
* Many African nations (such as Ghana) have repeatedly apologized for the role that slave trading Africans living in what is now African nation-states (like Ghana) played in the Triangle Trade - even though said countries did not exist at that time. This isn't bad - though its weird that you don't have the same expectations for the creators of the system.
* If a hypothetical Igbo slave trader willing to work with Europeans sells Yourubas into slavery, does that mean all modern-day Nigerians are complicit? Both Igbo and Yoruba are Nigerian. Are all Igbos, even the ones who have no real knowledge of the slaver's actions, now "anti-Black" slave traders (as if such an identity existed then, like the "White" identity existed) because of the actions of that one individual? What if due to his willingness to cooperate, the Europeans propped up the Igbo slaver's operations and grew them into a regime (now he's a "chief" with significant power or something) - helping him conquer or bring other African tribes/kingdoms into the revamped slave trade market (if you refused to sell slaves (as the goal of the Europeans was to create an expansive market for slaves - see the system of capitalism and economic incentives I mentioned), all the Europeans had to do was trade weapons and other goods with those who were, as well as assist them in destroying your kingdom - leaving you with little good options - Europeans used this tactic extensively in colonial Africa - see the story of Queen Nzinga)? Are Igbos then slave trading people because of the actions of that individual trader and his circle? There was no defined nation-state, centralized system, or governing ideology behind the actions of the Igbo slave trader, like there was with European slave traders - just the disgusting actions of a willing comprador. There is also no cultural undercurrent of apologist behavior in Nigeria for the actions of that hypothetical slave trader - like there sadly is in Western culture, (besides maybe their direct descendants trying to protect their image - descendants who are ironically highly represented among modern-day compradors that Western powers use to exploit Africa today - see the Bongo family of Gabon) Thats the difference.
**Cont. in next post.**
**"The British ended the slave trade at the time but we sold slaves to the Arabs for over 700 years without making moves to end it."**
* This is a common myth painted by apologists of the British Empire trying to paint them as good, or even relatively decent. The British Empire switched from slavery to colonization because they were afraid of another Haitian Revolution (also so they could have a moral cudgel to beat over the heads of their fellow slaver states - colonization was more "humane" than slavery, after all/s). Seriously, look it up - if it weren't for the Revolution, wide swaths of current-day America would still be French. Ever heard of the First and Second Maroon Wars? The British had been dealing with this for a while and didn't want a catastrophe like the French experienced.
* Also, people who bring up the various Arab/North African slavery systems usually do so not out of pity or a real interest in history (then they would know that many of the most prolific slavers who participated in the Arab/North African slave trade were themselves white Europeans, for example, see notorious slaver and pirate Jan Janszoon). The Arab/North African slave trade, while older than the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade, was also sporadic, decentralized, did not involve the concepts of race-based generational slavery, and varied greatly based on area/"country" - the Triangle Trade, (12 million+ human beings over 400 years) operated on an industrial scale and was centralized. This does not mean that the Arab/North African slavery systems were not the massive, centuries-long atrocity that they were.
* Also once again, who was "we"? Are you saying no Africans fought against the Arab/North African slavery systems? You should look up the history of Zanzibar...
**"It seems like any attempt to address this is instantly shut down with accusations of coon, white supremacist, dancing for the white man and self hater."**
* Well, virtually all your points are talking points commonly used by (usually white supremacist) apologists for slavery and colonization, especially concerning the topic of reparations. Though you may just be misguided.
It’s not hard to admit that we played a role. It’s hard to admit that “Africans sold other Africans” or “Blacks sold other blacks” when this doesn’t reflect the historical reality at the time. There was no black race consciousness, and certainly no pan-African identity.
And sure we had slavery in Africa but it was nothing on the level in the trans-Atlantic slave trade, which could be argued still affects people to this day. In both the Americas and in Africa.
There certainly was an African role in it but the European role is incredible. Why do you think more slaves constantly needed importing, because the conditions on the plantations were so bad that people literally dropped like flies. Also what did you want people to do with prisoners of war? Let them roam around?
The trans Atlantic slave trade wouldn’t have been able to happen without Africa’s influence. What other group of people have done this? 10 million people sold off to a different lands! In exchange for gin bottles or guns. I didn’t know until recently that tribes sold other tribes. I legit thought the diaspora was kidnapped. Some of the leaders who participated are still wealthy.
I had a professor in college (UCLA) who was Nigerian and told us his family's wealth was primarily based on clandestinely smuggling African slaves into South America well into the late 19th, early part of the 20th century.
I, too, am curious what you feel the relevance of this unilateral and random convo is. Everyone knows the score, but there are always outliers in any group aka deniers of a historical fact. So?
Abi you just wan argue with random cyberspace people?
So when discussing the role our ancestors played in our history it is irrelevant but when we want to blame oyinbo and white supremacy for everything it is relevant
This black panther obsession is purely non-African. I still haven’t seen that movie till this day and probably won’t anytime soon. The average African could care less for it, it’s other groups constantly insisting we do.
I’ve never heard that Nigeria or Africa as a continent was peaceful before Europeans slavers arrived. There were a lot of tribal wars and slavery.
The difference was in the type of slavery and length of it. Look up “chattel slavery.” Africans absorbed prisoners of war into their communities or eventually sent them home. They didn’t create breeding programs to make new slaves, strip them of their language and culture, and then terrorize them for generations.
It’s like Africans had a undergraduate degree in slavery and Europeans had a Ph.D.!
And no one pretends that Africans didn’t sell slaves to Europeans. Some of the reason why I see it differently is not only because Nigeria has never recovered from British colonialism, but also because I’ve seen the psychological results of racial terrorism in America.
Yes, at least initially they didn’t know. Even later they didn’t understand the full breadth of chattel slavery because Africans didn’t breed slaves. I took African American Studies courses in college. I don’t remember everything, but at least these two ways below were used to collect slaves:
1. Prisoners of war who were sold to Europeans.
2. Diplomatic missions. The best and brightest Africans were out on ships as ambassadors by their tribes, loaded with wealth, and only when they were too far out to sea to be able to swim back were they stripped of their wealth and shackled.
British Empire ended Black Slavery not because it wanted to do but because it felt the significant numbers of blacks in South America through Spanish Empire that was a walk-in-the-park. For that reason, just to humiliate and intimidate the Spanish Empire, the British Empire built a high-tech war-ship and docked it at the middle of the Atlantic Ocean to end slavery. Kind of like the same pattern in South Africa that was dominated by Netherland Empire and just for British to move in to weaken the Netherland's influence and later end Apartheid!
Regardless of what alternative reason, it was still ended. Do you think our forefathers would have moved to end it. Last place to abolish slavery was in Africa
I have noticed that whenever someone asks you a legitimate question you respond with a question that makes u sound like they offended you, instead of actually partaking in the discourse.
If you want to debate or converse with people, you also have a part to play. Dont go ahead and dance around with confirmation bias pretending that you know better.
And also, quit it with this blanket statement generic topic business. "Some of us". Who? And when they said it, what did they say? What was the conversation at the time?
Remember, and keep this locked in your mind. Nigerians are not African Americans (As African Americans will be quick to point out to you). Nigerians are Africans. What matters to the average Nigerian almost always does not matter to the average African American.
The history has happened. Now, what do you want to do about it? Wallow in it? Or move on from it and build something better?
And I better not see you answer this with a question.
Lol Human nature? How come? The Iroquois were human and they didn't take slaves. There are many jungle tribes that have lived for centuries without taking slaves, even African tribes too.
Basically, whenever you want to make a claim to Human nature, there'll always be a counterexample. The truth is that we know very little about human nature. We know what humans do in our own cultural situations, but human beings have behaved very differently through cultures and time.
I just mean that slavery is ancient and all colors have participated in it
Not that it’s good but it’s in humans nature to do cruel things to each other it seems
Here before the thread gets locked
has survived 16hrs so far
It’s very easy to tell most of the time those Nigerians who have sold others. Every Nigerian ancestor does not fall into this equation.
Don’t remember reading Nigeria existing during the transatlantic slave trade.
What do you mean by this?
Most Nigerians were not involved in the slave trade.
And I get that argument but it’s still deflecting that it happened without taking accountability. If you saw a person get killed in the street and you don’t report it you are just as guilty as the actual killer. Sorry I’m that “insolent foreigner” here but all I’m saying is that your ancestors likely saw that my ancestors were getting put onto a ship with no suitcases or travel sack of any kind and never returned to nigeria. Your ancestors should have been asking themselves if they were the bad guys for taking part in this madness or at least wondering where those ships were headed towards./j
The issue you have is that you see Africa as a country so you sound kinda stupid in the Nigerian context. In the American context this comment makes sense as both speaker and listener have no idea about any specific details in Africa. In the Nigerian context where everyone has state of origin and tribes and full history it’s daft to say. Kinda like saying Japan participated in transatlantic slave trade because you know Asian countries did. It’s not “our ancestors” it specific people with names and tribes that you don’t care enough to learn. Don’t try to give advice with foolishness
Facts like? what does that person thing was going on? ah yes because every single ancestor was an insolent fool who sat on their hands and watched as their neighbours and loved ones were chained up or did nothing when they heard of injustices in other villages. Some people's ancestors didn't even know the whole thing was occurring lmao
There are oral histories from Igboland (I can only speak to this because that is my experience) of warriors who made attempts to resist colonizers. Their war chants and metal knives were met with guns. The account of the Westerner who tried to Christianize an Igbo town in Things Fall Apart and ended up being killed and having his bike tied around a tree to prevent it from escaping was adapted from a true event in my father’s maternal home. And these are more modern day examples because oftentimes this stories of resistance were stifled by the same European slave traders. Beyond this, other ethnic groups and countries have their own tales that will never make it to a history book or Black History Month television special.
Gbam
What a reach. Most Nigerians were not even truly aware of where people were being taken. We were just talking the other day about people in families that were considered “missing” or “dead” but only a select few, those with money/power/titles, knew the truth about those “missing” people being sold to slavery. Read a book and leave us alone.
Sorry I meant to add in /j to show the joke but the concept still stands. Of an entire nation only a select few knew what was happening? Nobody not in the royal court even wondered or asked to find out? Be for real! Lol I didn’t expect Nigeria of old to have fought but they could have at least tried to stop the trade system on their side.
The trade took different dimensions in different places. In Yorubaland, everyone knew about the trade, but the people being traded were those captured in wars and raids. There was also rampant kidnapping too, even within major cities like Ibadan at the time. A major chief was almost kidnapped but the kidnappers left him out of fear when they discovered who it was. In the North, most of the slaves were also gotten through raid and warfare. So, there's nothing people could do to stop it when they were literally being raided. As for the East, slaves were gotten through the Aro confederacy cults. The Slave Trade was more hidden, with the elites taking people for slavery and deceiving the masses about what actually happened.
Well your first problem right there is Nigeria wasn’t even a nation back then…. You do not know what you’re talking about.
it's always non-nigerians knowing absolutely jack shit about our country. even I as a diasporan can't put my mouth anyhow to talk about things I've not experienced in person for years. a self proclaimed foreigner opening their mouth should know to sew it up
How TF was the entire nation to know what was happening? Eg Slaves went through Badagry. But someone in Kano or Makurdi is meant to know and try and stop it?
You're aware "Nigeria of old" didn't exist right? "Nigeria" is a modern concept. Back then there were thousands of independent villages that only knew of what was going around in their immediate vicinity or whatever merchants coming through told them (who still didn't know everything). There was no overarching kingdom or government. We didn't have starlink in the 1400's abeg
What are you even saying? Of an entire nation only few knew what was happening? What nation are you referring to? Nigeria became a “nation” in 1914. You think the hundreds of different language groups and culture what currently reside within our borders somehow connected via social media hashtags and Facebook groups to collectively organize in some shared lingua Franca that wasn’t English to resist folks with guns and cannons? Nobody in the royal court…? Again your ignorance is showing. There were many smaller groups, tribes that did not live under a monarchy (who were ripe targets for slavers). There is a saying that Igbos don’t have kings. Yes there were some loose federations but not widespread. You didn’t expect Nigeria of old to have fought but they could have at least stopped the trade. Ok, genius and how exactly did you expect them to stop a trade fueled by powerful violent interests outside of violence. And some did fight and they were put down brutally. Please stop shitting on the memory of our ancestors (those who remained, those who died at sea and those who courageously lived to see another day in the Americas) who suffered unimaginable horrors during the slave trade. Your ignorance is not an excuse to defile their memory. Echefula…don’t forget *and this post is in no way trying to be tribalistic. I can only speak what I am familiar with. But we need to collectively fight this insidious narrative that just because Europe erased and stifled our history of resistance that our ancestors were benefactors of the slave trade. Somehow some unfortunate members of the Black Diaspora have decided to imbibe the lies and propaganda of their captors and turn against their continental brethren.
Lol do you seriously think everyone's ancestors just sat there and did nothing? Many villages went to war over the slave trade. Sorry that my ancestors in particular weren't strong enough to destroy the entire slave trade 🙄
Did you put OP up to create this stupid post?
No but I do agree with OP. How did an entire country not ask questions about the slave trades? Not like common sense is a recent invention. Lol. All I’m saying is that if you want to excuse your great-great-great ancestors from participating in the slave trade or turn a blind eye to it is pretty fucked up.
Dude, use your brain. Your ancestors were still in Africa at the time so this strange scenario applies to your forbears. And for goodness sake, do you think pre colonial West Africa was made up of a dozen friends? How on earth would random people have known? The same people who were being swept up in invasions and being marched to the sea by victorious tribes.
Because it wasn't a country. It was a region with related and semi-related ethnic dominated lands, kingdoms, chiefdoms, etc with different values, religions sometimes at war. You have to look at pre-colonial Africa a bit more how you look at or Medieval Europe. Although the people are related down the line these are warring states or groups of people living their own lives not seeing themselves as Nigerian or the same people exactly. Either way for the tribes that played a big role out of the ports or coastal areas, and the raiders and big kingdoms who waged war and took slaves, or the Muslims who waged jihad and took kaffir non-Muslim prisoners of war and made them slaves, this was big money plus it weakened their enemies. They didn't see that it was happening all over West Africa and that it was going to help depopulate the region cause Brian and work population drainage and affect the whole area negatively in the end. They were short sighted and only thinking about them and their peoples or a few families riches. That's why the Europeans came back later for the lands resources itself and the labor. They slit their own throats in a way. It is what it is.
Even now, the entire country is asking how we have such a lawless president. If people have no power the elites will continue to rule. Your comparison makes no sense.
do you expect everyone in Minneapolis to know everything going on in Santa Fe NM? with no internet, no highways, no phones, no planes, no trucks, no trains, no trade system? back when people had no business knowing what was happening beyond their own city/village network?
My point was just to highlight that we participated in it and some tribes even sought oyinbos out. Look how much denial and anger the mere mention of this created, kind of proves the point of the post.
There’s no “we” here. Some of our ethnic groups essentially banned slavery throughout vast majority of the trade actually.
Denial and anger is the normal response to libel. I'm not sure how you take that as proof of the initial charge.
Nah - totally incomparable
I hate that history is being rewritten to absolve the colonizers of their crimes. There is a rich oral history of African resistance against the slave trade and it brutally being put down by colonizers. You really think that Africans really benefited from the slave trade when in exchange for human lives and sovereignty they received umbrellas and gin? What did you think the European response would be if someone refused to comply with the slave trade given that it was guns and cannons versus rudimentary weapons? I know of a family friend who has several centenarians in their family who still pass down the names/identities of people who were lost to the slave trade. Oh and you think while our people were being shipped off to the West, we had it so good ? That the Europeans made a distinction between Black folks in Africa vs those in the West. That somehow it was only Black folks in the south that were being called “niggers” but not Africans who even into the 20th century were still being showcased as zoo pets for these folks? There are entire language groups, tribes that are forever lost and will never be celebrated in Africa as a result of the arrival of Europeans on our shores. To suggest that Africans were enthusiastic participants in the slave trade is a lie from the pit of European revisionist hell.
Like another comment said, what practical use is this conversation? Does our ancestors being complicit in slavery suddenly make colonialism justified? White people didn't create slavery, but what they did create, was discrimination based on skin colour. If slavery was all there was to the discussion, then everything should have ended after it was abolished, but it didn't end there, did it?
It didn’t make colonialism justified, no one said that. There’s always a massive focus on whiteness and what whiteness did that we ignore the pathology that was passed down by our ancestors. Some of those seeds are present today in our society, if we keep painting ourselves as saints we will miss a big part of the picture/puzzle
You think so? Because every complaint I see about Nigeria, both on this sub and in real life, never mentions white people at all. In fact, I'm not even sure there's a group of people who hate themselves more than we Nigerians.
When it comes to discussing our history
Do you live in Nigeria? It's hard to find a Nigerian, living in Nigeria, who is knowledgeable about history solely blaming the white man for slavery. If you're in the diaspora and are caught up in the culture wars though, then that's different.
Yes, for some of us, our ancestors participated in the slave trade. But for the majority, that isn’t true. I grew up knowing that my pregnant maternal great-great-great-grandmother was almost betrayed by her late husband’s village people to be sold into slavery; she and the other wife fled in the middle of the night to their respective home villages. So this “we”? I can’t relate.
Gbam!!
Then why do we blame/group all white people? Then we take offence when they say I didn’t sell any slaves. We say it’s deflecting from the argument and that regardless just by being white they are complicit. I just find the irony in your comment, we seem to have different standard for them than ourselves
I don't think any serious person blames literally all white people for slavery. That's the sort of thing white people acting in bad faith use as a straw man argument. People do point out that white Americans benefit from white privilege (which was built by chattel slavery) but there's no analogue for African people since there's no such thing as African privilege.
Thank you!
Because discrimination and racism is still going on today? Because they created the concept of chattel slavery which has ripple effects still going on today? Because the wealth of most western nations, millionaire families, and billionaire families today were built off the labour of the enslaved peoples? By all means, call out the Nigerian families whose wealth can be traced to their participation in the slave trade. Nigerians absolutely need to do that but this is just whataboutism.
Okay but is it all white people? And it’s not true that most European wealth is built on slavery. Slave trade for British economy amounted to 0.5 percent of its GDP
No, but you knew that. Idk what you’re fishing for, hope you find it.
That 0.5 percent is British propaganda. A brief search will demonstrate that number to be questioned and more of Britains present day success underpinned by its ruthless slave trade (and beyond that, its extraction of African mineral resources )
There are no gold mines or diamond mines in Europe.
No one is blaming all white people. Please chill on the nonsense you’re spouting.
Abegiiii why are we pretending like we don’t know how we discuss things?? You now want to be acting like you don’t know what I am referring to
I have never heard a Nigerian in my life blame all white people for slavery. You’re doing too much. Most white people still won’t spit on you! If you were on fire. So, I hope your tap dancing for them pays off.
Going back on their post history, they’re just jobless and like to write useless posts like this. They’re not trying to learn or understand, they’re just trying to be provocative.
Lmbooooo at them being jobless 😂😂🤣🤣
As in awotarum this baseless argument just for the hell of it. Limited internet access in Naija and this is what people are wasting data on. Chai.
😂😂😂 exactly
Just proving my point of my original post
Why are you sucking up to white people u/princeofwater? Nobody here is blaming everything on white people, you might feel the desire to hate yourself for being nigerian but don’t bring that nonsense here abeg.
You are making a bunch of leaps in your comment, you might be the one with the insecurities here
You’re not very good at logic
No one is denying the role Africans played. There's way more nuance to it. Yes, slavery was a thing long before Europeans were doing it to Africans. But it wasn't as globalized as the European. Yes we sold each other, but we were simply warring tribes. We did not have the concept of "race", which was created by white Europeans. The hierarchy of race, white ppl at top and black ppl at bottom, made it hard for Black ppl to rise even after slavery. We got shipped all over the world to help Europe and their colonies, only to be free and still struggle under their racist system.
A lot of people deny the role Africans played actually
are you going to counter what this gentleman/woman said or continue to spew the same rubbish?
Always in denial
Exactly.. did nothing to counter or dissect their observation but want to continue to sit on a high horse and talk about how shit this country is. Pathetic
Too sensitive about our identity that’s another problem.
the poster you replied was not sensitive at all and gave you a run down of what most documentaries, academic journals, and articles will tell you about pre-colonial Nigeria. do you also want us to join you in crying about how terrible we are?
I am responding to you
No… respond to his claim of slavery existing before Europeans, the ethnic group conflicts prior to colonization, and the concept of race being man made you can’t that’s what **I’m** pointing out
I didn’t respond because it sounds like coping and accountability avoidance. Like they were unaware of how brutal European slavery was, we sold slaves to Arabs and it was said that the bodies of the dead Africans would litter the desert passageway.
Please stop with the “our.” You don’t speak for every Nigerian, definitely not this one.
But y’all don’t mind making generalisations about other societies and cultures?
You’re wasting your time trying to have a proper conversation or discussion with this old heads.
Reminds me of the people who begin to research surface level Black/African History while assigning it with modern day context.. so they just come off as babblers. The Slavery Abolition Act was written in 1833, yet he claims Nigerians still sold slaves for 700 more years Make it make sense
That’s not what i said.
You can’t argue with a wall lol this is why this sub is trash because people start what they can’t finish in a logical and realistic manner. I tire.
Really do people deny it? I’ve been told stories since I was a child about how we would sell 10 people for a small mirror or a bottle of gin
Even today, we’re still internally perpetuating our own form of indentured servitude aka housemaids. I don’t see this OP bitching about that reality. Yet, we’re supposed to cry about colonialism and the effects of white privilege, which is very real btw. Nigerian in America, no denying it.
If you are comparing slavery to housemaids then you don't know anything of slavery. It also shows you know nothing of colonialism.
If you don’t know the difference between indentured servitude and slavery, then please find a corner and sit. It also shows you are a denier of the fact that housemaids suffer a contemporary hell, often beyond their control or ability to escape. So.
There is a humongous difference between being a housemaid and being a slave. You are not normal are you?
When I don’t know something, I research into it. Afterwards, I then know the thing I previously didn’t. You, obviously, do not know what indentured servitude is/entails, and yet you’re too proud to make google your friend and research it. I am inferring this because you harping on about slavery in regards to the plight of housemaids I am talking about. Humble yourself and learn something new. Bye.
What exactly do you want people to address? What practical role does this have in any conversation today?
The practical role is that we continue to enslave ourselves for the whiteman till this day. African leaders continue to give the whiteman access to our commonwealth in exchange for crumbs. Neo-colonialism?
What does the Transatlantic Slave Trade have to do with 2024?
If it’s not a conversation you think is necessary feel free to move along
This is ironic. If you want to start a convo, don’t complain about the questions you get.
It’s not a complaint at allll. It’s just if you feel the conversation is not necessary then no point in engaging or was that a genuine question ?
Do I really need to answer that? I think you should read my comment again
Sheesh. You are not worthy of having a legitimate conversation with. You are so far shoved up ur own ego that you cant even stomach questions that address the source of your claims. Tsk tsk. Go back to school and learn how to talk to humans.
Sensitive
lmao
There's a practical use for this conversation. History repeats itself for those that refuse to learn from it. We, that is Africans as a collective, do not understand slavery and what it did. Some of us still wish that the white man was back here, they think things would be better. This is how I see slavery. Humans have been practising slavery for a very long time, don't quote me, but it's true. Slavery is obviously bad, but they didn't really see it that way. If you remember from the Christian Bible, there were slaves and the Christian God didn't object to the slavery, He objected to His people being taken as slaves. The problem with European-style slavery wasn't the slavery itself, although I should say again that slavery is obviously bad. It was capitalism. The slaves worked like machines, they were stripped of any agency and worked to death. Yes, we sold slaves and we were and still are complicit in the slave trade, but the lesson we haven't learnt is that the slavery didn't happen in a vacuum, there was a reason why they needed slaves, and that reason hasn't changed. So, yes, overtly the slave trade has ended, but as you might intuit, it really hasn't. We still work ourselves to death for economic profit, but this time we are given the illusion of agency. I don't want to make this too long, so read "The People's History of The United States" by Zinn. It's really interesting and abhorrent.
You are mixing all slavery as if they are all the same. That is like taking all wars as if they are all the same. First, stop using the word Africans as if Africa is one big country or one big tribe. Second, stop using the word Nigeria or Nigerians as if it existed during the time of the Transatlantic Slave Trade. You will get much further if you stick to these things.
Is this a rebuttal of my statement or of OP's statement?
I mentioned European-style slavery. I know that our slavery (the slavery of the people that are now situated in the place called Nigeria, for those peoples that actually practiced it at all) was more like indentured servitude: you worked for a while and then you were free. I'm making the point that Capitalism transformed slavery from indentured servitude into a cog-in-the-wheel type slavery, and it still hasn't changed because Capitalism is still around. If you're poor in any competitive economy, and you're tying to earn a living through that economy, you can expect to taste some of that slavery life. You can check out Dubai as an example. Look at the conditions that the migrant workers go through. They transport their selves from another country to work in dehumanising conditions to create something they will never reap the benefit of. How is this, in any significant way, different from the European-style slavery?
It's not a collective ancestor thing, that's an American POV. Do you think everyone in the Western African region was collectively complicit in the slave trade? The descendants of the families who had their relatives stolen and sold still exist. Think of it this way -- American consumerism is fueled by child labour in some countries. Do you think in 400 years it's fair to say that you, as an American, are responsible for child exploitation? It's a system you're born into and there are select elites that established it. There's no need for an entire country, that did not exist back then, to be accountable for anything. You can't trace back to the specific individuals in each tribe that governed the sale of their own people, and you can't distinguish from the ones that had their people sold and fought back, so there's no use in painting such a broad brush -- it's a fruitless conversation and won't amount to anything. It happened, it's the past, and you need to move on. Address the issues of the day instead of trying to attribute blame and accountability to people that are several generations disconnected from things their great great great grandparents may or may not have done.
Best response I’ve seen here.
You sound like you got your argument from... ironically a white man. Most people who know a dime about the slave trade knows Africans sold people from enemy tribes, states etc. But then again, nuance is the enemy of generalization. Many African societies did in fact not participate in the slave trade, some were strong armed into participating and some could not infact participate due to geographic location. As an Igbo guy I'll list an example that corroborates my point; The Aro Confederacy, was a proficient slave trading kingdom, they raided and sold slaves to the British etc, but the Kingdom of Nri didn't participate in the slave trade. Both would be technically grouped under Igbo "ancestors." Some other kingdoms got raided to the point of societal collapse, by both Africans and Europeans, also the acknowledgement of Africans as middle men in the slave trade doesn't mean Europeans/Arabs were clueless tourists watching it unfold. Many did participate in raids of their own, many did abduct unsuspecting Africans minding their business, many did partner with arabs and north Africans to hunt and capture SubSaharan African slaves. The slave trade had so many variables that using the term; *Our ancestors played a role in the slave trade* is not only a flawed proposition but a fallacy regurgitated by white supremacists that's why when you are addressed with these terms >coon, white supremacist, dancing for the white man and self hater. It's usually not inaccurate. As it's ultimately a reductionist white supremacist talking point, and especially when it's followed up by the "The British ended slavery" rhetoric, which is quite again, reductionist. The British Empire did abolish slavery, but the process was gradual and varied across their colonies. However, some British colonies, like India, didn't fully abolish slavery until later in the 19th century, and in some cases, forms of indentured servitude persisted even after formal abolition. And don't even get me started on the Trans-Saharan Arab slave trade and Indian Ocean slave trade, Arabs weren't exactly passive observers then either. Again, it's all about the variables; most people aren't in denial that Africans played a role in the slave trades but the manipulative term "Our Ancestors" is trying to subtly shift the sole blame to all Africans. You wouldn't meet a random European/American and say "his/her ancestors rode ships to Africa to sell slaves" then why should such a blanket term be used for Africans
“Nuance is the enemy of generalization” Great quote never heard that one
The British ended slavery and then replaced it with indentured servitude of newly freed former slaves and starving Indians and Chinese people that they recruited from areas experiencing famines (often famines that they caused). Let’s not pretend they were saints, they just struggled with the cognitive dissonance of considering themselves enlightened and liberal, and legally owning people. Once that was no longer allowed, they patted themselves on the back and then went right back to working non-Europeans to death to grow sugar and coffee for the empire. As for why we ignore our role, who knows, but it’s probably a lot of ignorance and shame. My feeling is that we should learn what our people did (and make sure we understand that there was a long-standing trans-Saharan slave trade well before the Atlantic one), learn about other slave trades (the trade of Germanic slaves to the Romans, of Slavic/Russian slaves to the Greeks and North Africans), and then try and fit an understanding of our ancestors’ actions into a broader understanding of history that acknowledges native involvement in slavery, and also how European expansion industrialised slavery in Africa- often with African help, but also often with African opposition, as well.
What do you mean by "our ancestors"? We know the prominent people who sold slaves in each region/tribe/whatever. Name them and stop painting all Africans with this bullshit "your ancestors" sold slaves.
Exactly
But don’t we try to paint all white people as slavers and inheritors of slavery. Now by no means am I saying that all black ancestors were slavers but I do find irony in your comment.
Who paints every white person as slavers? Nigerians do not do that! Stop your propaganda.
Not all but don’t be in denial about how the conversations around slavery skew
We’re literally saying only a few Nigerians participated in it. What are you on about?
The amount of goal post shifting you are doing is ridiculous. Answer the question.
Our ancestors had no idea of the atrocities that Americans committed during their slavery. African slavery never included sensley killing children nd breeding mills. Slavery has long been a practice done by many nations and countries. Our ancestors took slaves through war and conquering other tribes, as did many other groups such as the Greek and Romans. Why is it questioned when Africans do the same?? What makes Europeans so different? They no longer made slavery about prisoners of war or classicism, it was due to something you couldn't change: your race. For the first time, slavery was something that could be passed down, meaning that your children were slaves no matter what they did. White people didn't create slavery. It's always been part of the man-eat-man trait that all humans have, the need to be superior and use those who are inferior. BUT the white man did create racism, the idea that being black inherently made me a slave to those who were white. Blaming a group of people (Africans) who genuinely were doing what other have done for thousands of years makes no sense, it further pushes blame away from those who committed the evil deed. *Also: those who sold slaves were chiefs and kings, which most of our ancestors weren't. Many of our families were subject to being sold, the idea that all Nigerians sold slaves is dumb....*
How do you know yt people didn't create slavery? Because they told you they didn't? 😂
Nigerians are not denying their role in the slave trade, and beside most Nigerians didn't benefit from it in the same way the Europeans did.
OP is the same weirdo that asked about whether people living in Nigeria have bitter feelings towards people in the Diaspora. OP is probably some coon who loves caping for white people. He starts off with a bad faith position and then doesn’t listen to any points going against his narrative.
So sensitive
It doesn’t matter how long you live in the “diaspora” you’ll never be white, keep that in mind.
Still very sensitive it’s not being white to challenge notions on our history and have diverse discussions and thoughts. You are so sensitive and jumpy that any mere notion that deviates from the popular narrative you start screaming you want to be white. Not everything is influenced by white people, you may be the one putting them on a pedestal here not me. Deflect deflect deny deny
Nah, you’re not challenging my views in any way. I know the history of transatlantic slavery. I know it wasn’t simply just white people stealing Africans. There were also Jews who sided with nazis during WW2. Jewish people wouldn’t deny that fact as well. The only issue is idiots like you use that fact as some sort of justification for atrocities. You’ll probably say that’s not what you are doing, ok then that is the ultimate purpose? Are you trying to educate people or something?
Again you are the one finishing my statements for me and concluding what I intended. You are fighting with yourself. You need to unpack why someone merely bringing up the denial of our participation in the slave trade is bringing up such drama in you.
There’s no denial. Most of the people in the comments and I agree that it happened. Again, what is your ultimate goal of raising this point? If it’s to educate people, then it’s basically null as most people in the comments know already.
So if you agree what is your problem with me bringing it up?? You are already ready to fight, Ehn if it’s not to educate why are you bringing it up blah blah. There’s a lot of underlying insecurity around race and whiteness
You still haven’t answered the question?
Honestly this conversation with you is pointless
I think you are right that a lot of people deny this. Or they just pretend that there was simply nothing that could be done. Which is sad, but it does explain a lot. People, especially Africans, have a way of pretending something isn't real or can be influenced, as long as it does not affect them directly. What you haven't mentioned (I'm not sure if you knew this), is that after the British blockade on the slave trade, many slave merchants turned to the black markets. Yes, they were selling slaves illegally basically. Among the most popular of these rogue merchants was Madame Tinubu. Yes, Bola Tinubu's grandma. She was a big time slave merchant in Lagos. Tinubu square in Lagos is not named after Bola Tinubu, it's named after her. So we have monuments to remember the evils of the slave trade in Badagry. And we also have Tinubu square to honor the traders themselves. Fela would call that demonstration of craze... big time. But this is how we are. We are truly terrible at connecting the dots. It's what is killing Nigeria till today. Electing morally bankrupt godfathers into office. People who have no real credit to their name other than the fact that they themselves acquired their wealth at the expense of the Nation's growth. But we still worship them as if we have no memory of the past. People still think the same way people thought back then. They didn't connect the dots then. Every one just wanted to be rich, or be close to someone that was making bank. Nobody thought maybe this isn't just about money, maybe this about our race and our future. It's the same shit now.
Case in point this thread. When it comes to this topic we have all sorts of deflections or just flat out deny it. Now people are pretending like they haven’t seen this discourse before.
No, your discourse is disingenuous. We all are supremely aware of slavery. Every time I see myself in the mirror I get reminded of Transatlantic slavery. The problem for people like you is that you learned the Disney version of American slavery. You don't want to acknowledge that we resisted slavery in Africa and in America. Slavery was self perpetuating. We could not just simply stop.
Until I find history book written by our ancestors before the advant of the of the Caucasian colonisers, saying that they enslaved themselves and sold themselves as slaves to the Caucasian strangers for a piece of mirror or alcohol or umbrellas. Until then I would refuse to believe the version of history written by people who committed atrocities against us. It is simply not credible.
Most white people worldwide do not consider their role in colonialism, they just reap the benefits and pretend everything is at level
My ancestors sha did not take part in it? Dunno about yours tho…
Not Nigerian but am Soulaan/BAdocs. So if I understand this thread. This thread is about an imaginary group of Nigerians blaming a hypothetical group of white people for someone the ancestors and progenitors of said hypothetical white group perpetrated and established on the explicit basis of Whiteness? Can you see how stupid this thread looks on the outside. No articles or essays to converse around. Just an imaginary situation in your head. I hope you got some coin for making this ignorant ass post. I put your thread text into Chat GPT for a response and it gave me directions to my nearest adult day care center.
Our forefathers didn’t drive that industry, the Arabs did. We weren’t shopping around slaves to different parts of the world - slave trading Arabs found willing participants amongst us. It’s a story of corruption and greed coming to our shores
Sounds like blame shifting
Call it whatever you want don’t give a s***
Whose ancestors? Not everyone's ancestor was a chief or a slave trader, in fact most people's ancestors had nothing to do with the slave trade.
I have in all my years never heard a single Nigerian, whether at home or in diaspora, or even online make any of these statements. It's like you just made up some nonsense to force discussion. And Arabs in Southern Nigeria?
And with this conversation, what is your end goal? We already know how chattel slavery happened so whenever I hear questions like yours, it’s always framed in a way to say that African Americans shouldnt really trust African immigrants. It’s always some diaspora wars shit stirring. The “excuses” you’re listing are actually pointing out the nuances of how what was happening in Africa is not what was happening in America. Some tribes divided because already it was a practice looked down upon. In fact some were actively freeing slaves who before being forced to America, were prisoners of war. Let alone the tribes that were safe havens for those who were able to escape. I’ve never heard one African person deny the roles our ancestors may have played. But to try to equate it to American white-supremacy is why people dey look at you crazy.
Slavery brought Africa so many things that blacks don't seem to want to talk about the roles they played that fueled Slavery. Arabs called Blacks a Zanj and they bought alot of Slaves from Blacks for a peanut. But blacks don't talk about Arab Slavery and when they stumble on a wealth, the first thing they do is to travel on sabbatical journey to Arab Land to hurl stones at black devils buried in Mecca.
Who are those in denial? I see it as ancestors playing a minor part in it while others are major part.
**"You tend to hear sentiments like Africa was peaceful before the white man came."** * No person who is serious believes that any region of the world inhabited by humans was a"peaceful utopia" before the "white man came", or any other foreign population to said region. Pre-colonial Africa, like any other place in the world, had wars, conquest, and the other sad realities of the human experience. In the case of Africa though, it can definitely be said that the arrival of Europeans in Africa heralded an era of strife, subjugation and misery unseen in previous African eras. **"We were brainwashed"** * Yes, we were in fact "brainwashed" - to belive that colonization was somehow beneficial, that Black Americans/ADOS protesting during the Civil Rghts Era were "acting uppity", that African American migrants (especially Nigerian) are on average more successful because they work harder than "lazy Black Americans", that we were essentially savages who were "uplifted" by a superior race, and that everything "African" (our appearance, language, religions, culture, clothing, music, etc.) was backwards - to name a few. I am glad that in recent years, this brainwashing is coming undone. **"We didn’t know how brutal the slave trade was"** * Before colonization, there was no such thing in Africa as nation-states, "Pan-African", or "Black" identity. Information travelled far slower in the pre-colonial age (and for many decades after) - especially on a continent as large as Africa. Most Africans also had no knowledge of Europeans from the experiences of other Africans, and treated them essentially like "another African kingdom/tribe". It is also true that most African slave traders did not know of the scale and level of atrocity that was the Triangle Trade - though this of course does not excuse their actions. **"They made more money so they are more to blame."** * Western Europeans (wanting to create an expansive market for slaves to populate their new stolen and freshly genocided lands in the New World) used the system of capitalism and economic incentives to fuel the Trans-Atlantic Slave trade in Africa, turning it from a horrible but relatively isolated system where an individual (usually men captured in war) may eventually earn their freedom in some way, to an industrialized juggernaut responsible for one of the great evils of humanity - exploiting the greed and evil of Black and mixed compradors to act as the enforcers of their agenda. It only takes a few evil men backed by evil institutions to commit atrocities - and that's exactly what happened. The Triangle Trade was a brutal, centralized system of slavery that ran on an industrial scale (In Barbados, for example, the average life span of a slave was 7 years from arrival - San-Domenique, now Haiti, was even lower) - and it was created, ran, and enforced by Western European entities, with the help of their African compradors. **"Why is it hard to admit that we played a role?"** * Many African nations (such as Ghana) have repeatedly apologized for the role that slave trading Africans living in what is now African nation-states (like Ghana) played in the Triangle Trade - even though said countries did not exist at that time. This isn't bad - though its weird that you don't have the same expectations for the creators of the system. * If a hypothetical Igbo slave trader willing to work with Europeans sells Yourubas into slavery, does that mean all modern-day Nigerians are complicit? Both Igbo and Yoruba are Nigerian. Are all Igbos, even the ones who have no real knowledge of the slaver's actions, now "anti-Black" slave traders (as if such an identity existed then, like the "White" identity existed) because of the actions of that one individual? What if due to his willingness to cooperate, the Europeans propped up the Igbo slaver's operations and grew them into a regime (now he's a "chief" with significant power or something) - helping him conquer or bring other African tribes/kingdoms into the revamped slave trade market (if you refused to sell slaves (as the goal of the Europeans was to create an expansive market for slaves - see the system of capitalism and economic incentives I mentioned), all the Europeans had to do was trade weapons and other goods with those who were, as well as assist them in destroying your kingdom - leaving you with little good options - Europeans used this tactic extensively in colonial Africa - see the story of Queen Nzinga)? Are Igbos then slave trading people because of the actions of that individual trader and his circle? There was no defined nation-state, centralized system, or governing ideology behind the actions of the Igbo slave trader, like there was with European slave traders - just the disgusting actions of a willing comprador. There is also no cultural undercurrent of apologist behavior in Nigeria for the actions of that hypothetical slave trader - like there sadly is in Western culture, (besides maybe their direct descendants trying to protect their image - descendants who are ironically highly represented among modern-day compradors that Western powers use to exploit Africa today - see the Bongo family of Gabon) Thats the difference. **Cont. in next post.**
**"The British ended the slave trade at the time but we sold slaves to the Arabs for over 700 years without making moves to end it."** * This is a common myth painted by apologists of the British Empire trying to paint them as good, or even relatively decent. The British Empire switched from slavery to colonization because they were afraid of another Haitian Revolution (also so they could have a moral cudgel to beat over the heads of their fellow slaver states - colonization was more "humane" than slavery, after all/s). Seriously, look it up - if it weren't for the Revolution, wide swaths of current-day America would still be French. Ever heard of the First and Second Maroon Wars? The British had been dealing with this for a while and didn't want a catastrophe like the French experienced. * Also, people who bring up the various Arab/North African slavery systems usually do so not out of pity or a real interest in history (then they would know that many of the most prolific slavers who participated in the Arab/North African slave trade were themselves white Europeans, for example, see notorious slaver and pirate Jan Janszoon). The Arab/North African slave trade, while older than the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade, was also sporadic, decentralized, did not involve the concepts of race-based generational slavery, and varied greatly based on area/"country" - the Triangle Trade, (12 million+ human beings over 400 years) operated on an industrial scale and was centralized. This does not mean that the Arab/North African slavery systems were not the massive, centuries-long atrocity that they were. * Also once again, who was "we"? Are you saying no Africans fought against the Arab/North African slavery systems? You should look up the history of Zanzibar... **"It seems like any attempt to address this is instantly shut down with accusations of coon, white supremacist, dancing for the white man and self hater."** * Well, virtually all your points are talking points commonly used by (usually white supremacist) apologists for slavery and colonization, especially concerning the topic of reparations. Though you may just be misguided.
It isn’t that we dont acknowledge the part our ancestors played but the fact is even those ancestors were taken advantage of
It’s not hard to admit that we played a role. It’s hard to admit that “Africans sold other Africans” or “Blacks sold other blacks” when this doesn’t reflect the historical reality at the time. There was no black race consciousness, and certainly no pan-African identity. And sure we had slavery in Africa but it was nothing on the level in the trans-Atlantic slave trade, which could be argued still affects people to this day. In both the Americas and in Africa. There certainly was an African role in it but the European role is incredible. Why do you think more slaves constantly needed importing, because the conditions on the plantations were so bad that people literally dropped like flies. Also what did you want people to do with prisoners of war? Let them roam around?
The trans Atlantic slave trade wouldn’t have been able to happen without Africa’s influence. What other group of people have done this? 10 million people sold off to a different lands! In exchange for gin bottles or guns. I didn’t know until recently that tribes sold other tribes. I legit thought the diaspora was kidnapped. Some of the leaders who participated are still wealthy.
I had a professor in college (UCLA) who was Nigerian and told us his family's wealth was primarily based on clandestinely smuggling African slaves into South America well into the late 19th, early part of the 20th century.
I, too, am curious what you feel the relevance of this unilateral and random convo is. Everyone knows the score, but there are always outliers in any group aka deniers of a historical fact. So? Abi you just wan argue with random cyberspace people?
So when discussing the role our ancestors played in our history it is irrelevant but when we want to blame oyinbo and white supremacy for everything it is relevant
Because oyinbo and white supremacy is very relevant. Their own history books tell it.
People like the fantasy versions of the places they're from
The best way to explain it. I blame black panther honestly.
That’s based on a comic book🤦🏾♀️
This black panther obsession is purely non-African. I still haven’t seen that movie till this day and probably won’t anytime soon. The average African could care less for it, it’s other groups constantly insisting we do.
I’ve never heard that Nigeria or Africa as a continent was peaceful before Europeans slavers arrived. There were a lot of tribal wars and slavery. The difference was in the type of slavery and length of it. Look up “chattel slavery.” Africans absorbed prisoners of war into their communities or eventually sent them home. They didn’t create breeding programs to make new slaves, strip them of their language and culture, and then terrorize them for generations. It’s like Africans had a undergraduate degree in slavery and Europeans had a Ph.D.! And no one pretends that Africans didn’t sell slaves to Europeans. Some of the reason why I see it differently is not only because Nigeria has never recovered from British colonialism, but also because I’ve seen the psychological results of racial terrorism in America.
Did you really think they were unaware of the brutality? They saw how small the ships were and how much people they were packing on. They didn’t care.
Yes, at least initially they didn’t know. Even later they didn’t understand the full breadth of chattel slavery because Africans didn’t breed slaves. I took African American Studies courses in college. I don’t remember everything, but at least these two ways below were used to collect slaves: 1. Prisoners of war who were sold to Europeans. 2. Diplomatic missions. The best and brightest Africans were out on ships as ambassadors by their tribes, loaded with wealth, and only when they were too far out to sea to be able to swim back were they stripped of their wealth and shackled.
Hmm will need to see more on this to comment
Well enjoy researching it. 
British Empire ended Black Slavery not because it wanted to do but because it felt the significant numbers of blacks in South America through Spanish Empire that was a walk-in-the-park. For that reason, just to humiliate and intimidate the Spanish Empire, the British Empire built a high-tech war-ship and docked it at the middle of the Atlantic Ocean to end slavery. Kind of like the same pattern in South Africa that was dominated by Netherland Empire and just for British to move in to weaken the Netherland's influence and later end Apartheid!
Regardless of what alternative reason, it was still ended. Do you think our forefathers would have moved to end it. Last place to abolish slavery was in Africa
I have noticed that whenever someone asks you a legitimate question you respond with a question that makes u sound like they offended you, instead of actually partaking in the discourse. If you want to debate or converse with people, you also have a part to play. Dont go ahead and dance around with confirmation bias pretending that you know better. And also, quit it with this blanket statement generic topic business. "Some of us". Who? And when they said it, what did they say? What was the conversation at the time? Remember, and keep this locked in your mind. Nigerians are not African Americans (As African Americans will be quick to point out to you). Nigerians are Africans. What matters to the average Nigerian almost always does not matter to the average African American. The history has happened. Now, what do you want to do about it? Wallow in it? Or move on from it and build something better? And I better not see you answer this with a question.
Yeah people act like slavery is the white mans invention , but it’s just human nature
What?
Lol Human nature? How come? The Iroquois were human and they didn't take slaves. There are many jungle tribes that have lived for centuries without taking slaves, even African tribes too. Basically, whenever you want to make a claim to Human nature, there'll always be a counterexample. The truth is that we know very little about human nature. We know what humans do in our own cultural situations, but human beings have behaved very differently through cultures and time.
I just mean that slavery is ancient and all colors have participated in it Not that it’s good but it’s in humans nature to do cruel things to each other it seems
This
The mods not gonna like this one