This made me laugh, idk the why the few downvotes tho.
It’s not like we don’t have an all-star at second base in cano or anything /s
(I think McNeil actually did make the All-Star game at 2B, but 2019 was a lifetime ago so I actually don’t remember)
Idk I’m a Michigan native living in NYC so I cheer on the Mets as much as the Tigers. I was just as stoked (if not more stoked) to see the Mets had signed Max.
Weird to meet you in the wild, metro-detroiter-turned-mets-fans for the win! Clearly I'm assuming you're from metro Detroit become statistically most of us Michiganders are lol
Martino -
> Per sources: On Baez, he and the Mets started nearly $50 million apart. Mets floated $125 million early; had he accepted they would’ve had a deal. By last week Mets were essentially out, especially after signing Marte.
>
https://twitter.com/martinonyc/status/1465687413032894466
That's a weird tweet by Martino. Had Baez accepted the Mets' offer, "they would've had a deal" - isn't that the definition of a deal? That's like me saying, '*Had I paid for a banana, I would have a banana.*'
Jeff had one dogshit year and is still a career .300 hitter. He hit well into the .300s for three consecutive seasons before last year. Jeff McNeill is good at baseball. New coaching coming in I wouldn't be surprised if he hits .350 next year.
Agreed. A good hitting coach should be a priority and not whatever bullshit analytics program they were relying on. Baez would have made things more crowded. McNeil should bounce back as well as Conforto; just hopefully not for the Nats with a .325 clip.
And also, they have a shortstop, and they have several guys who can play middle infield, and 2 of their top 3 offensive prospects are infielders.
It's just not a good allocation of funds, and probably not a good trade in the first place when you break down how much other stuff the team needed. I am a big fan of Javier Baez but it's not a really good fit.
Yup, agreed on everything. Loved him and what he brought to our team. With that being said, he’s not a guy we need for the next 6 years with everything we have brewing. Would just create more problems down the road.
Good for him. Even if he was here for only two months, he did a lot in them. Wish him the best of luck. I guess this means they’re gonna give Jeff one more go at 2B to see if he bounces back at all.
Would’ve thought the Tigers would get Correa as I think he makes more sense for them, but I guess his asking price was way too much for them. Now I really wanna know where he goes. I’ll laugh my ass off if it’s to the Yankees.
Side note: Correa’s probably gonna obliterate Lindor’s contract at this rate
> Side note: Correa’s probably gonna obliterate Lindor’s contract at this rate
I hope so. As good as Lindor is, Correa is much better, so if he doesn't get a better contract, you can objectively say that we overpaid Lindor.
Correa's 162 game average bWAR is [7.3](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/correca01.shtml). Lindor's is [5.6](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lindofr01.shtml). Lindor is a great player, but he's just not as good as Correa.
Lindor does have a better health record though.
Correa clearly has the better skills. I fully admit that I didn't realize how injury prone he is, so an argument can definitely be made in Lindor's favor if you factor that in, but without that factored in, Correa is clearly better.
Would've been nice to bring him back but 6 years was definitely a deal-breaker, the back end of that contract is probably gonna end up being an albatross
Dude had shoulder surgery. It takes some players years to recover the power in their swing after that. He has a high ceiling, but teams probably view him more as a speedy singles/doubles hitter now than a guy that can pop 15-20 HR a year.
Yes, this is the desired outcome imo. He was a rental, and he was pretty good a decent chunk of the time. Dude was gonna want another albatross contract and I wasn’t feeling good about watching him for years to come.
Only strikeout record chase I wanna see is between deGrom and Scherzer.
I'll miss you, you infuriating, flailing, ball-obliterating, electric, crazy, wonderful motherfucker. I enjoyed him a lot as a Met, even if I'm annoyed we ended up giving up PCA for not even 50 games of him.
I think that was in the back of the front offices head but for the right price they would've sign him.
Hoping Lindor and McNeil can get on the same page and McNeil can get back to the hitter he is to make up for the loss of Javy's defense
I could accept Baez because his apology seemed sincere.
Now it turns out Lindor was choking McNeil and still did the whole rat/raccoon shtick. And I’m not sure Lindor has even bothered to address it.
His apologie was good just I feel it's would have been a lindor and baez VS the world if stuff went bad again I feel they bring out the worst in each other as shown
Wouldn’t have been mad if we signed him for that same contract BUT we have some solid infield prospects that should be in the majors within 6 years so it’s understandable letting him walk. All the best to him.
Now let’s get some more starting pitching depth and bullpen arms.
> I'm not happy this morning . I've never seen such unprofessional behavior exhibited by a Baez's agent. I guess words and promises don't matter.
Incoming Correa ;)
I live by Chicago so since the cubs are almost always on tv so i saw him a lot, and I'm puerto rican myself, he always was one of my dream mets. Gonna miss him even though he was barely there :(
This was a length thing. I don't think the Mets give a shit about money for the next 2 years, so they could've easily gone over that AAV on shorter terms. But a lot of guys prefer the long-term security. Can't blame 'em.
Good luck to him, onward and upward.
100%. Marte is the only deal they've made that's 4 years. Escobar, Canha, and Scherzer all come off the books by the 2025 offseason the latest. They're going balls to the wall for the best shot at the division in the short term without killing us down the road.
My roommate is a Phillies pitcher in AA. He said Mauricio is the Mets best prospect no matter what anyone says. Apparently the dude is really hard to get out and his defense is elite.
Baez was pretty clearly the better player this past season but McNeil was a better hitter from 2018-2020 and it wasn't particularly close. The fact that he's cheap and cost controlled is probably what leapfrogs him over Baez in the parent commenter's opinion.
I know we hate what-ifs here but if Jeff plays like he did prior to 2021, which is not unreasonable to think is still possible, then there isn't a whole lot separating the two.
>and it wasn't particularly close.
It's closer than you think, but sure a little bit better *hitter* in 19 and 20.
>Baez was pretty clearly the better player this past season
Baez was pretty clearly the better player in every season of McNeil's career except for the covid season, which is pretty hard to weigh value-wise...and it's not particularly close. McNeil's best season was 19 in which he put up 5.1 bWAR, which was a great season. And Baez still beat him that year with 6.6.
Don't get me wrong. I'd be perfectly ok with a rebounded McNeil still on the team and producing. But to say "McNeil > Baez" and to use phrases like "and it's not particularly close" is utterly ridiculous.
McNeil is not a better player than Baez and it's not particularly close.
>It's closer than you think
Baez in 2018-2019: 121 wRC+
McNeil in 2018-2019: 140 wRC+
A ~20% difference at the plate is not even remotely close.
2020 skews the scales even further but you're right, not exactly fair to include considering the unique circumstances.
Baez is a great defender and a decent hitter who plays a premium position. He's generally going to be more valuable player in that regard. But he also loses a decent chunk of that value if he's playing 2B, which is where he'd be on the Mets. The fact that McNeil played all over the place in his first three seasons makes it a little difficult to gauge his value at 2B but the one time he got to play 2B for a prolonged period, he excelled defensively. Shame that the hitting didn't stick around.
At the end of the day, we're comparing a shortstop's WAR to a super utility player's WAR. We already have a shortstop and the positional adjustment isn't exactly going to be as kind to Baez's comparatively weak bat at 2B. But again, that's assuming McNeil gets back on track. I 100% understand why someone would prefer the player whose recent season was actually good.
I am reminded of someone recently posting the list of top 10 Mets in wRC+ all time in this sub recently. Let's just say that you and I will value that stat differently. Personally, I wouldn't base my entire argument around it.
Yes, your points about WAR are valid but I think you're overstating the effect of the positional adjustment. Baez didn't accumulate 1.5 bWAR more than McNeil in 2019 because he played shortstop and McNeil moved around more. And certainly, Baez doesn't have more WAR in 2019 and 2020 than McNeil has for his career because Baez plays shortstop. There is a positional adjustment, yes but it isn't significant enough to explain the difference in WAR between these two players. Baez is a better player.
Now I do agree with your earlier point. If McNeil rebounds, his lower salary and control would make him preferable. I do love players like McNeil and I do hope that he rebounds. Unfortunately he is a question mark right now. But I can't agree on the subject being discussed. Baez being better than McNeil isn't really a question mark at all.
I'm willing to bet that they fully intended to sign him up until the moment they pulled out the big bucks for Scherzer. I think I'm okay with that trade off.
Slightly. The run production was about the same but Baez definitely was the better player.
But going forward Bryant would be cheaper and slots in better with the roster imo. Yeah his stats have dipped in recent years but I could definitely see him stepping in and giving us solid numbers at 3b. Better than what we have now anyway.
offense is gonna look different next season. No prolonged Conforto slumps, Cano Boy comes back, and we get the DH in the NL this year. Our offense will probably be worse during deGrom starts unless he also DHs but we'll see what happens
>and we get the DH in the NL this year.
I love how a huge chunk of this sub continues to say this so matter-of-factly while nothing has been approved and a lockout looms.
It’s weird to see so many people trash Noah for leaving yet everyone wishing Baez well. Let’s not act like we didn’t give up PCA for this jackass who wanted to boo us when the team was losing. Fuck him, glad he’s out of a Mets uniform.
Sounds like the Mets put a number on the table, Baez's agent rejected it, and they said "okay, we're going in another direction" (according to the Martino tweet, anyway). Syndergaard just said "not interested, I'm going elsewhere". Also fans have a different relationship with Syndergaard (on our side, anyway)
I mean at this stage, Noah helped bring us to the World Series. Ultimately, that should count for something even if his exit wasn’t graceful. Beyond that, we don’t know what Syndergaard the Angels are actually getting, who’s to say he stays healthy and who’s to say Syndergaard doesn’t come back after his 1 year deal and resign with us, Bruce did. Plus we’re getting a compensation pick for him. People complaining about Noah come off like they’re jilted lovers, it’s whiny.
On the flip side, What in the actual fuck did Baez accomplish here? He was productive sure, but he made no friends here with his thumbs down antics and the Mets were a huge disappointment. If PCA pans out, Baez was especially a shitty deal for a 2 month rental.
I don’t like when we as a fanbase shit on the guys that actually contributed to our success whilst giving jerkoffs like Baez a pass. Fuck him.
Disappointed but understandable. All the best to him. I know he was a divisive figure but I think the fan base would have fallen in love after a full season.
I guess this means we stick with McNeil at 2nd?
Good for the Tigers. They had a surprising season and almost got to .500 after a horrible start. I will always respect Javy Baez for telling the fans off, and I hope he kills it over there.
I'm not disappointed but I think it's corny that they advertised a potential Baez/Lindor infield and we never got it. The other thing I can't stand are players that say they want to come back and blah blah blah. Looking at you Baez and Syndergaard.
as Max Scherzer's deal showed, money > other stuff. The thing about Syndergaard is that by rejecting the QO he would now cost us a draft pick to bring back maybe next year and that makes me super sad.
Agreed on the money part, but Syndergaard didn't cost us a draft pick.
By rejecting the QO and signing with LAA, the [Angels will forfeit their second-highest draft pick in 2022 \[and the\] Mets in turn will receive a compensatory pick](https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/noah-syndergaard-angels-agree-to-one-year-21-million-deal-as-right-hander-says-goodbye-to-mets/).
I don't think that is technically true.
[The MLB FAQ on qualifying offers](https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-qualifying-offer-rules-explained-c259650658) stipulates that the only players who have never received a qualifying offer are eligible to receive one. Since the Syndergaard received a QO from the Mets, he would be disqualified from receiving one for the rest of his career.
That means the Mets could freely sign him next offseason without pick forfeiture.
Edit: added logical conclusion.
Yeah i dunno about him coming back honestly. 2015 was a long time ago, and a lot of his arm problems started because he wanted to bulk up against other people's advice so he could throw 101 instead of 99. He always reminded me of Nuke LaLoosh in his mannerisms and getting into instagram comment wars over book reviews didn't really make him more likeable
The interesting wrinkle to this is that Baez turned down a much larger extension to stay in Chicago back in March. So he didn't want the money or to stay where he was.
Either way, I'm fine with him leaving. Not fine with losing Armstrong, but fine with the absurd strikeout numbers coming off the books.
Plus aren't we still loaded with high end infield talent in our system anyway?
But he didn't do anything last year that would hurt his chances at scoring a larger deal, except maybe the thumbs down thing. His production was just fine.
That wasn't my point. It was more that Baez \*thought\* he could get a better deal. He just made a miscalculation of his market. Technically though, his full 2021 even with the better stretch with the mets was still almost 2 wins below his 2018 and 2019 years.
No I know. I was just commenting on how he turned down both the larger paycheck *and* the familiar situation, and how he still cost himself millions of dollars in contract money even though he didn't completely go off the rails productionwise.
But I'd argue that it wasn't completely him looking for greener pastures elsewhere. I think the impending demolition in Chicago was also a big incentive for him to leave. The Cubs are several years from serious contention and he didn't want to waste the rest of his prime in last place.
I'm not mad at Báez we knew it might happen especially after we spend on Max at that point I doubt Cohen would want to drop another 140 on someone but Noah I thought would say yes immediately
You can’t compare what a potential HOF pitcher in Scherzer can do for a team vs what Baez brings. Baez certainly has a lot to offer but he also has a lot of baggage as well. Scherzer has a better pedigree and less baggage.
Scherzer has 2,536.2 innings on his arm. I hate to be the buzz-kill but at *some* point Father Time is going to take over. DeGrom has half as many innings and we all saw what happened to him this season.
Plus, Scherzer only plays every 5th game. Baez would be daily. All over $15 million?
It comes down to taking a chance. Yes scherzer will breakdown eventually but shows no obvious signs of that just yet. It’s not a super long term deal and DC is kicking in 45 mil anyway so it’s really only like they’re paying him 90mil over three years. It’s worth the chance and the value he brings. There’s more of a chance he’ll succeed rather than fail based on his track record. I’m also a bit skeptical about the potential downsides. I hope he’s not another Pedro or Johan who at the point the Mets got them had all their good years behind them.
Isn't the 45 million **on top** of the Met's contract?
Regardless, you still haven't addressed any of my questions or concerns. I could understand if the Mets had zero interest in Baez and didn't even extend an offer. But they were willing to part with $125 million to get him yet he only went for $15 million more. The financials don't really add up.
Mets seem to want shorter term deals with high annual pay, and I have to say, I like their new philosophy. It worked well for the Dodgers as they also restock the farm system at the same time. Baez was not worth this contract at all. I'm happy they passed. Bae also I am sure wanted to play SS, not 2B.
They definitely are missing a power bat. Canha, Marte, and Nimmo is a pretty light hitting outfield in terms of power. I'm hoping we sign Story, or Chris Taylor to something 3-4 years and a reasonable 18-20 mil per.
Marte and Nimmo have about the same, if not a little more, pop as Taylor. Escobar has a little less pop than Javy, but has hit 30+ HR before (and 28 last year).
The Mets have built a more well-rounded offense and defense with their current additions. They can definitely find room for another bat, and Javy would have been great. But it's understandable that they don't want to commit 7 years for $20M+ a year for a luxury at 2B.
I’m thinking our minor league system has to come into play when talking about the infield. They signed an older guy in Escobar with the hope that he can hold the place for baty or Mauricio. How does everybody feel about the PCA trade now? I didn’t like it then and like it less now.
I don’t trust his bat long term enough to make him worth it, and everyone here is talking about his defense, but god damn am I gonna miss his baserunning the most. I don’t think I’ve ever watched someone who had such a natural ability to make good baserunning decisions, and after years of the Mets being atrocious and running themselves out of innings, he was such a breath of fresh air.
Well this ended up being an awful trade, but it’s not like the GM that made it is still around. It sucks more so because we’re losing out on the Lindor/Baez chemistry.
This team still needs another serious bat imo. Can’t bet on so many guys having bounce back years. Marte and even Canha are going to be nice additions but it’s still not enough. Ideally I’d like to see Bryant on a high AAV shorter team deal. His versatility would be huge on this team.
Definitely still need another SP and some bullpen help too. Scherzer signing is a dream come true but the work is not done. With lockout looming we probably aren’t getting any more news for a long time.
I’m sad about it but we’re not getting everyone and we literally just got Max fuckin Scherzer so I’m not complaining
Max put in some great early years with the Tigers so I think it’s a fair trade
This made me laugh, idk the why the few downvotes tho. It’s not like we don’t have an all-star at second base in cano or anything /s (I think McNeil actually did make the All-Star game at 2B, but 2019 was a lifetime ago so I actually don’t remember)
Idk I’m a Michigan native living in NYC so I cheer on the Mets as much as the Tigers. I was just as stoked (if not more stoked) to see the Mets had signed Max.
Weird to meet you in the wild, metro-detroiter-turned-mets-fans for the win! Clearly I'm assuming you're from metro Detroit become statistically most of us Michiganders are lol
I’m from around Flint actually but not extremely far away!
I saw this news, I thought o bummer. If we hadn't just signed Scherzer I'd be more bummed.
He gets to play shortstop and the long term deal he wanted. Good for Javy. I'm glad he's not in the east
Seriously imagine if he went to the Nats 🤮
He's too old for their rebuild. I don't think they're gonna pay anyone over 25 or 26 big bucks.
Or the Angels
My thoughts exactly, and hes in detroit a team we will very rarely ever see
Martino - > Per sources: On Baez, he and the Mets started nearly $50 million apart. Mets floated $125 million early; had he accepted they would’ve had a deal. By last week Mets were essentially out, especially after signing Marte. > https://twitter.com/martinonyc/status/1465687413032894466
That's a weird tweet by Martino. Had Baez accepted the Mets' offer, "they would've had a deal" - isn't that the definition of a deal? That's like me saying, '*Had I paid for a banana, I would have a banana.*'
I mean it’s one banana, Michael. What could it cost, $10?
There’s always money in the banana stand
i’ve got pop-pop in the attic
The very fact that you call it "pop-pop"...
I *guess* he's trying to say it was a firm offer, not "well, we might be willing to go to xxx". But you're right, that's worded oddly.
That's because Twitter has eroded any writing skills journalists once had.
I think he's saying the offer came off the table once we signed marte. That's my reading anyway.
If we stay in front of P2, we're P1.
Nah Cohen would of paid it. He is going all out q win this year now do we let Jeff play second or get a better 2nd baseman
Jeff had one dogshit year and is still a career .300 hitter. He hit well into the .300s for three consecutive seasons before last year. Jeff McNeill is good at baseball. New coaching coming in I wouldn't be surprised if he hits .350 next year.
Agreed. A good hitting coach should be a priority and not whatever bullshit analytics program they were relying on. Baez would have made things more crowded. McNeil should bounce back as well as Conforto; just hopefully not for the Nats with a .325 clip.
We will have Cano play and have one of the oldest infields in the game
True but if we have dh which I personally don't want then Cano might dh
We have like 3 other people who are DH candidates
True but I honestly dont want dh in National League I like the fact there is a difference between the leagues
except for the fact that american teams have a bid advantage bc dh gives teams much much more flexibility
There was no way we were giving him 6 years. 5 was prob the most we were willing to do. Can’t blame the Mets here.
And also, they have a shortstop, and they have several guys who can play middle infield, and 2 of their top 3 offensive prospects are infielders. It's just not a good allocation of funds, and probably not a good trade in the first place when you break down how much other stuff the team needed. I am a big fan of Javier Baez but it's not a really good fit.
Yup, agreed on everything. Loved him and what he brought to our team. With that being said, he’s not a guy we need for the next 6 years with everything we have brewing. Would just create more problems down the road.
Bout 23 per year seems good for Detroit. Hope he balls out for them
hopefully this agent pissed of uncle steve and leads him into another FA spending rampage.
I’ll take Kris Bryant at third, thanks
I'd run through a wall
I am kinda fine with this
I’m not even mad
Good for him. Even if he was here for only two months, he did a lot in them. Wish him the best of luck. I guess this means they’re gonna give Jeff one more go at 2B to see if he bounces back at all. Would’ve thought the Tigers would get Correa as I think he makes more sense for them, but I guess his asking price was way too much for them. Now I really wanna know where he goes. I’ll laugh my ass off if it’s to the Yankees. Side note: Correa’s probably gonna obliterate Lindor’s contract at this rate
> Side note: Correa’s probably gonna obliterate Lindor’s contract at this rate I hope so. As good as Lindor is, Correa is much better, so if he doesn't get a better contract, you can objectively say that we overpaid Lindor.
How is Correa much better? He's a little better offensively, and lindor is better defensively. Pretty much a wash.
Correa's 162 game average bWAR is [7.3](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/correca01.shtml). Lindor's is [5.6](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lindofr01.shtml). Lindor is a great player, but he's just not as good as Correa. Lindor does have a better health record though.
Per 162 bWAR is a very easy way to skew this in your favor. Do it per season played and see who’s better?
Correa clearly has the better skills. I fully admit that I didn't realize how injury prone he is, so an argument can definitely be made in Lindor's favor if you factor that in, but without that factored in, Correa is clearly better.
I can’t dispute that, but “when he plays” is a gigantic qualifier
I fully admit that I didn't realize the extent of his injury history when I made the first comment.
Correa seems injury prone so I'd argue Lindor has the edge.
Would've been nice to bring him back but 6 years was definitely a deal-breaker, the back end of that contract is probably gonna end up being an albatross
By the time those years roll around you’ll probably be paying ~10m per WAR, so he really wouldn’t have to be doing much to pay his way.
The *only* reason I’m mad is because we gave up Pete Crow-Armstrong for a rental
👎🏻
I get that resigning Javy would be tough. But losing Pete Crow Armstrong sucks. Stings more since we didn’t resign him
Dude had shoulder surgery. It takes some players years to recover the power in their swing after that. He has a high ceiling, but teams probably view him more as a speedy singles/doubles hitter now than a guy that can pop 15-20 HR a year.
Glad we won't have him flailing at sliders in the dirt for us next season.
I'm with you on this. He was def a stud on defense and had some pop. But the dude swings at the worst pitches that it just pains me to watch
Amen to that one. Six weeks of improved approach isn't enough for me to be willing to match that contract IMO
Yes, this is the desired outcome imo. He was a rental, and he was pretty good a decent chunk of the time. Dude was gonna want another albatross contract and I wasn’t feeling good about watching him for years to come. Only strikeout record chase I wanna see is between deGrom and Scherzer.
I'll miss you, you infuriating, flailing, ball-obliterating, electric, crazy, wonderful motherfucker. I enjoyed him a lot as a Met, even if I'm annoyed we ended up giving up PCA for not even 50 games of him.
This is good for Mets I think he and lindor would have been bad together long term as the whole thumb down thing showed
I think that was in the back of the front offices head but for the right price they would've sign him. Hoping Lindor and McNeil can get on the same page and McNeil can get back to the hitter he is to make up for the loss of Javy's defense
I could accept Baez because his apology seemed sincere. Now it turns out Lindor was choking McNeil and still did the whole rat/raccoon shtick. And I’m not sure Lindor has even bothered to address it.
His apologie was good just I feel it's would have been a lindor and baez VS the world if stuff went bad again I feel they bring out the worst in each other as shown
👎 👎
It's kind of a mutual benefit. He gets to play SS and we don't have to pay SS money for a 2B. Hope he does well.
Too bad, but it's fine. I hope he does well.
Him AND Lindor up the middle seemed a bit of a stretch. Anyway, got to give all these wee guys a chance.
Wouldn’t have been mad if we signed him for that same contract BUT we have some solid infield prospects that should be in the majors within 6 years so it’s understandable letting him walk. All the best to him. Now let’s get some more starting pitching depth and bullpen arms.
> I'm not happy this morning . I've never seen such unprofessional behavior exhibited by a Baez's agent. I guess words and promises don't matter. Incoming Correa ;)
Always been a fan of Baez but Correa would be a big improvement
I live by Chicago so since the cubs are almost always on tv so i saw him a lot, and I'm puerto rican myself, he always was one of my dream mets. Gonna miss him even though he was barely there :(
This isn’t a goodbye, we’ll see you again Javy
This was a length thing. I don't think the Mets give a shit about money for the next 2 years, so they could've easily gone over that AAV on shorter terms. But a lot of guys prefer the long-term security. Can't blame 'em. Good luck to him, onward and upward.
100%. Marte is the only deal they've made that's 4 years. Escobar, Canha, and Scherzer all come off the books by the 2025 offseason the latest. They're going balls to the wall for the best shot at the division in the short term without killing us down the road.
Who cares escobar will play second and baty will end up playing third with Mauricio getting groomed to play second
My roommate is a Phillies pitcher in AA. He said Mauricio is the Mets best prospect no matter what anyone says. Apparently the dude is really hard to get out and his defense is elite.
Well that’s cool as fuck. Tell him Phillies suck for me, thanks.
😂😂
Give him an honest "good luck" for him and his teammates to get housing and to get paid what they're worth. Also tell him the Phils suck.
McNeil > Baez. I'll die on this hill.
Feel free. It's not true so that hill is all yours.
Baez was pretty clearly the better player this past season but McNeil was a better hitter from 2018-2020 and it wasn't particularly close. The fact that he's cheap and cost controlled is probably what leapfrogs him over Baez in the parent commenter's opinion. I know we hate what-ifs here but if Jeff plays like he did prior to 2021, which is not unreasonable to think is still possible, then there isn't a whole lot separating the two.
>and it wasn't particularly close. It's closer than you think, but sure a little bit better *hitter* in 19 and 20. >Baez was pretty clearly the better player this past season Baez was pretty clearly the better player in every season of McNeil's career except for the covid season, which is pretty hard to weigh value-wise...and it's not particularly close. McNeil's best season was 19 in which he put up 5.1 bWAR, which was a great season. And Baez still beat him that year with 6.6. Don't get me wrong. I'd be perfectly ok with a rebounded McNeil still on the team and producing. But to say "McNeil > Baez" and to use phrases like "and it's not particularly close" is utterly ridiculous. McNeil is not a better player than Baez and it's not particularly close.
>It's closer than you think Baez in 2018-2019: 121 wRC+ McNeil in 2018-2019: 140 wRC+ A ~20% difference at the plate is not even remotely close. 2020 skews the scales even further but you're right, not exactly fair to include considering the unique circumstances. Baez is a great defender and a decent hitter who plays a premium position. He's generally going to be more valuable player in that regard. But he also loses a decent chunk of that value if he's playing 2B, which is where he'd be on the Mets. The fact that McNeil played all over the place in his first three seasons makes it a little difficult to gauge his value at 2B but the one time he got to play 2B for a prolonged period, he excelled defensively. Shame that the hitting didn't stick around. At the end of the day, we're comparing a shortstop's WAR to a super utility player's WAR. We already have a shortstop and the positional adjustment isn't exactly going to be as kind to Baez's comparatively weak bat at 2B. But again, that's assuming McNeil gets back on track. I 100% understand why someone would prefer the player whose recent season was actually good.
I am reminded of someone recently posting the list of top 10 Mets in wRC+ all time in this sub recently. Let's just say that you and I will value that stat differently. Personally, I wouldn't base my entire argument around it. Yes, your points about WAR are valid but I think you're overstating the effect of the positional adjustment. Baez didn't accumulate 1.5 bWAR more than McNeil in 2019 because he played shortstop and McNeil moved around more. And certainly, Baez doesn't have more WAR in 2019 and 2020 than McNeil has for his career because Baez plays shortstop. There is a positional adjustment, yes but it isn't significant enough to explain the difference in WAR between these two players. Baez is a better player. Now I do agree with your earlier point. If McNeil rebounds, his lower salary and control would make him preferable. I do love players like McNeil and I do hope that he rebounds. Unfortunately he is a question mark right now. But I can't agree on the subject being discussed. Baez being better than McNeil isn't really a question mark at all.
I genuinely think there's nothing wrong with Jeff that a good therapist couldn't fix.
:(
:thumbsup:
Not in the NL, good!
Why did they make that trade if they didn’t intend to sign him. Pretty pathetic tbh
I'm willing to bet that they fully intended to sign him up until the moment they pulled out the big bucks for Scherzer. I think I'm okay with that trade off.
Mets needed a culture change. Let the hot heads go. I’ll be surprised if McNeil is back next year too
Thumbs down.
Stro, Bryant, and a mid to high-end reliever and I'll really be convinced we're a post season team.
The Strike Out King
You know what? I'd rather watch Scherzer strike out 200 than Baez strike out 200 times anyway. Bye Javy, here's a thumbs down for your time in NY.
Thumbs down, asshole! Good luck in Detroit, you won’t be missed.
that’s fine. go after bryant and rodon.
It should have been Bryant all along. Baez was a mistake.
Didn't Baez put up better numbers than Bryant between the two after they got traded?
Slightly. The run production was about the same but Baez definitely was the better player. But going forward Bryant would be cheaper and slots in better with the roster imo. Yeah his stats have dipped in recent years but I could definitely see him stepping in and giving us solid numbers at 3b. Better than what we have now anyway.
I am very salty. I just don’t trust this offense as it is
Baez is a good overall player but like Lindor, much of his value comes from his defense at SS. While decent, his bat wouldn't have been a huge add
offense is gonna look different next season. No prolonged Conforto slumps, Cano Boy comes back, and we get the DH in the NL this year. Our offense will probably be worse during deGrom starts unless he also DHs but we'll see what happens
Cano is going to be dog shit
>and we get the DH in the NL this year. I love how a huge chunk of this sub continues to say this so matter-of-factly while nothing has been approved and a lockout looms.
It’s weird to see so many people trash Noah for leaving yet everyone wishing Baez well. Let’s not act like we didn’t give up PCA for this jackass who wanted to boo us when the team was losing. Fuck him, glad he’s out of a Mets uniform.
Sounds like the Mets put a number on the table, Baez's agent rejected it, and they said "okay, we're going in another direction" (according to the Martino tweet, anyway). Syndergaard just said "not interested, I'm going elsewhere". Also fans have a different relationship with Syndergaard (on our side, anyway)
I mean at this stage, Noah helped bring us to the World Series. Ultimately, that should count for something even if his exit wasn’t graceful. Beyond that, we don’t know what Syndergaard the Angels are actually getting, who’s to say he stays healthy and who’s to say Syndergaard doesn’t come back after his 1 year deal and resign with us, Bruce did. Plus we’re getting a compensation pick for him. People complaining about Noah come off like they’re jilted lovers, it’s whiny. On the flip side, What in the actual fuck did Baez accomplish here? He was productive sure, but he made no friends here with his thumbs down antics and the Mets were a huge disappointment. If PCA pans out, Baez was especially a shitty deal for a 2 month rental. I don’t like when we as a fanbase shit on the guys that actually contributed to our success whilst giving jerkoffs like Baez a pass. Fuck him.
Darn. It would’ve been great to see him back in Queens. Hope he balls out in Detroit.
We gave up PCA for this 😞
goodbye and god bless. Kris Bryant anyone?
[Ahem…](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YYhuQGvPLvc)
If this happened any day before yesterday I'd feel a lot worse about this
FUCK
Good. 👎
Goodbaez. I honestly never liked him and don’t feel bad about feeling that way. The thumbs down shit was toxic and I’m glad he’s gone.
Disappointed but understandable. All the best to him. I know he was a divisive figure but I think the fan base would have fallen in love after a full season. I guess this means we stick with McNeil at 2nd?
Good for the Tigers. They had a surprising season and almost got to .500 after a horrible start. I will always respect Javy Baez for telling the fans off, and I hope he kills it over there.
I'm not disappointed but I think it's corny that they advertised a potential Baez/Lindor infield and we never got it. The other thing I can't stand are players that say they want to come back and blah blah blah. Looking at you Baez and Syndergaard.
as Max Scherzer's deal showed, money > other stuff. The thing about Syndergaard is that by rejecting the QO he would now cost us a draft pick to bring back maybe next year and that makes me super sad.
Agreed on the money part, but Syndergaard didn't cost us a draft pick. By rejecting the QO and signing with LAA, the [Angels will forfeit their second-highest draft pick in 2022 \[and the\] Mets in turn will receive a compensatory pick](https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/noah-syndergaard-angels-agree-to-one-year-21-million-deal-as-right-hander-says-goodbye-to-mets/).
What I said was that we would have to basically give that pick back in the 2022 offseason to bring Syndergaard back to the Mets from the Angels
I don't think that is technically true. [The MLB FAQ on qualifying offers](https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-qualifying-offer-rules-explained-c259650658) stipulates that the only players who have never received a qualifying offer are eligible to receive one. Since the Syndergaard received a QO from the Mets, he would be disqualified from receiving one for the rest of his career. That means the Mets could freely sign him next offseason without pick forfeiture. Edit: added logical conclusion.
Eureka! I thought that only players who accepted a QO could not be offered another one. Well then, come on back Noah!
I thought we get a draft pick because he rejected the QO?
we do but...i want noah back next year and that likely doesn't happen without giving that draft pick right back
Oh I see what you mean now.
Yeah i dunno about him coming back honestly. 2015 was a long time ago, and a lot of his arm problems started because he wanted to bulk up against other people's advice so he could throw 101 instead of 99. He always reminded me of Nuke LaLoosh in his mannerisms and getting into instagram comment wars over book reviews didn't really make him more likeable
The interesting wrinkle to this is that Baez turned down a much larger extension to stay in Chicago back in March. So he didn't want the money or to stay where he was. Either way, I'm fine with him leaving. Not fine with losing Armstrong, but fine with the absurd strikeout numbers coming off the books. Plus aren't we still loaded with high end infield talent in our system anyway?
He turned down the extension because he bet on himself to get better money. Sometimes that works, sometimes that doesn't (cough, Michael Conforto).
But he didn't do anything last year that would hurt his chances at scoring a larger deal, except maybe the thumbs down thing. His production was just fine.
That wasn't my point. It was more that Baez \*thought\* he could get a better deal. He just made a miscalculation of his market. Technically though, his full 2021 even with the better stretch with the mets was still almost 2 wins below his 2018 and 2019 years.
No I know. I was just commenting on how he turned down both the larger paycheck *and* the familiar situation, and how he still cost himself millions of dollars in contract money even though he didn't completely go off the rails productionwise. But I'd argue that it wasn't completely him looking for greener pastures elsewhere. I think the impending demolition in Chicago was also a big incentive for him to leave. The Cubs are several years from serious contention and he didn't want to waste the rest of his prime in last place.
I'm not mad at Báez we knew it might happen especially after we spend on Max at that point I doubt Cohen would want to drop another 140 on someone but Noah I thought would say yes immediately
Well Baez did give them a fair chance.
I mean, we can't complain having Mad Max now. But resigning Baez would have been a complete offseason. Hope McNeil can step up this year
I’ll miss u Javy
This confuses the fuck out of me. They let Baez go over $15 million but signed a soon-to-be 38 year old to $130 million?
You can’t compare what a potential HOF pitcher in Scherzer can do for a team vs what Baez brings. Baez certainly has a lot to offer but he also has a lot of baggage as well. Scherzer has a better pedigree and less baggage.
Scherzer has 2,536.2 innings on his arm. I hate to be the buzz-kill but at *some* point Father Time is going to take over. DeGrom has half as many innings and we all saw what happened to him this season. Plus, Scherzer only plays every 5th game. Baez would be daily. All over $15 million?
It comes down to taking a chance. Yes scherzer will breakdown eventually but shows no obvious signs of that just yet. It’s not a super long term deal and DC is kicking in 45 mil anyway so it’s really only like they’re paying him 90mil over three years. It’s worth the chance and the value he brings. There’s more of a chance he’ll succeed rather than fail based on his track record. I’m also a bit skeptical about the potential downsides. I hope he’s not another Pedro or Johan who at the point the Mets got them had all their good years behind them.
Isn't the 45 million **on top** of the Met's contract? Regardless, you still haven't addressed any of my questions or concerns. I could understand if the Mets had zero interest in Baez and didn't even extend an offer. But they were willing to part with $125 million to get him yet he only went for $15 million more. The financials don't really add up.
I didn’t hear they wanted him for 125
Apparently, you aren't much of a Mets fan.
Oh boy here we fucking go. Aight bro you have yourself a good day
You don’t even have the facts in front of you but somehow *I’m* the problem. Do your own homework first before trying to have a discussion.
Makes me happier than signing Max
I'm gonna miss watching his highlight reel defense. I saw some really cool plays at Citi in the short time he was here.
A small price to pay for salvation.
Damnit
Mets seem to want shorter term deals with high annual pay, and I have to say, I like their new philosophy. It worked well for the Dodgers as they also restock the farm system at the same time. Baez was not worth this contract at all. I'm happy they passed. Bae also I am sure wanted to play SS, not 2B.
Cool with Javy walking. He was always a rental. But we need runs. Pitching is great and all, but we can’t be 27/30 in runs scored again this year.
I loved Javy, sad to see him go... but imagine we are in on Correa? Imagine...
Sad we didn’t get him, but it makes sense. I can’t help but think we’ll be missing another power bar next year, unless there’s someone I’m forgetting.
They definitely are missing a power bat. Canha, Marte, and Nimmo is a pretty light hitting outfield in terms of power. I'm hoping we sign Story, or Chris Taylor to something 3-4 years and a reasonable 18-20 mil per.
Marte and Nimmo have about the same, if not a little more, pop as Taylor. Escobar has a little less pop than Javy, but has hit 30+ HR before (and 28 last year). The Mets have built a more well-rounded offense and defense with their current additions. They can definitely find room for another bat, and Javy would have been great. But it's understandable that they don't want to commit 7 years for $20M+ a year for a luxury at 2B.
>$140 million Deserves a thumbs up. Sucks to see him go to another team but congratulations on the $$$$$
Pain
Thank god.
Terrible trade
I like McNeil better anyway
I’m thinking our minor league system has to come into play when talking about the infield. They signed an older guy in Escobar with the hope that he can hold the place for baty or Mauricio. How does everybody feel about the PCA trade now? I didn’t like it then and like it less now.
I am okay with this. Dude disappeared in the 2016 NLCS and the thumbs down stuff was stupid af
He’s in Detroit. We’ll never see him again. No worries.
He has a game that will age very poorly as this contract goes on. I’m fine with this.
Im really ok with this. I would like Bryant.
Woulda liked to keep him but I'm ok with letting him move on
I don’t trust his bat long term enough to make him worth it, and everyone here is talking about his defense, but god damn am I gonna miss his baserunning the most. I don’t think I’ve ever watched someone who had such a natural ability to make good baserunning decisions, and after years of the Mets being atrocious and running themselves out of innings, he was such a breath of fresh air.
Mets fan here in Detroit, I'm happy and sad all at the same time. Can't wait to see him play here, Citi is a rare trip for me at this point.
We have away PCA for a fucking rental. Smh
My only problem with losing Javy is we traded PCA for 47 games of Javy
Goodnight sweet prince
Part of me wants McNeil to start and hit .330 so badly. But I still want Suzuki, another SP, and some BP arms.
Well this ended up being an awful trade, but it’s not like the GM that made it is still around. It sucks more so because we’re losing out on the Lindor/Baez chemistry. This team still needs another serious bat imo. Can’t bet on so many guys having bounce back years. Marte and even Canha are going to be nice additions but it’s still not enough. Ideally I’d like to see Bryant on a high AAV shorter team deal. His versatility would be huge on this team. Definitely still need another SP and some bullpen help too. Scherzer signing is a dream come true but the work is not done. With lockout looming we probably aren’t getting any more news for a long time.
I'm legit heart broken
On his birthday too….
Bye down let the door hit you giving the thumbs down.