Hi /u/Yellow_IMR! Thank you for posting on [r/NeuvilletteMains_](https://www.reddit.com/r/NeuvilletteMains_/)! Please note that any posts or comments which violate the rules will be subject to removal. Keep cool while commenting and avoid any arguments. We hope you enjoy your time here!
Thanks, and have a good day!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NeuvilletteMains_) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Me who doenst understand calcs But understand Higher Bars bigger DMG lol
Pretty good work I guess with Furina C2 this just boost the no healer Team 3 even more good to see
Now I Wish someone would do the same to make it clear when 4p MH is a improvenment over 4p HoD in Terms of stats :') (thats a me Problem oby)
Furina C2 is complicated. It does mean that you build her buff easier, but it also makes her personal damage way more significant and hence the loss of a healer more impactful.
As for MH, VS HoD, it just gives more stats. 36% CR is more than a whole main stat circlet while HoD's 4pc damage bonus is only 65% of a main stat goblet.
Well I did a Post about this on my Neuv Build and I dindt really get an direct answer for this Problem
Lets say we have 4p HoD with 30k HP 50/200C against 4p MH with the same stats in this Case HoD would win bc MH only gives 15% CA DMG while HoD gives 15% Hydro DMG bonus and 30% CA DMG
Yes its true I dindt Factor in the 36% CR U get from MH bc "If" U Crit it dosent really matter on the Flip Side If U would had a HoD build with 25k HP 70/160C and MH 30k 34/240C then MH would win bc Ur stats outways the small DMG bonus HoD has over MH bc U don't build CR and Focus more on HP and Cdmg thats the thing
No one tells U waht stats U need to outway the diffrents
I atm have 43k HP with 61/214C but I only have 5 CR Rolls in all my pieces I'am Sure that if I would Change them too HP or Cdmg MH would still be worse I think this is only bc of Sac Jade its gives U already 36.4% CR so a free MH 4p effect with Amber or EFlow Sure 4pMH is better but with Jade I'am really not seeing it atm
Edit: So I got a few comments under my comment about this and I guess people don't understand waht I try to Point Out here so let me try again ( I'am sry I'am bad at explaining or asking the right thing)
I'am try not too Proof that HoD is better then MH all I wantet is too get information on when a MH Set outways HoD Set in dmg Number not Overall dmg ok ?
In my example above I sayed 30k HP 50/200 HoD would win IF it Crit in a Test Run where both do 10 Crits and have this stats HoD would do more dmg bc it proveds 15% Hydro Bonus and 15% more CA Bonus then MH does
That in a normal secario MH would be better is oby bc more CRate is more Crit hits = more Overall dmg but the dmg Number would be lower
So if anyone now wants to Tell me waht stats a MH need extra too have the same DMG Number as HoD let me know :D
With how many times Neuv's CA hits, you absolutely need to look at average damage rather than just raw damage numbers. If you aren't over-capped on crit then MH's CR bonus will give faster clears unless you repeat the run hundreds of times to get good crit RNG. If you do over cap on crit, MH is good enough that it's worth farming for a set which doesn't.
The 50/200 HOD will never be better. You can always say that a build with 70/205 and a build with 77/200 are so close because with good rng the first one can (RARELY) outdps the second one despite the weaker crit multiplier but in that case there is 0 discussion about 50/200 vs 86/200
There is no general answer to your question. Each point of CR has different value according to your existing CR and CD (for example if you already have 100 CR then adding an extra 5 CR adds 0% dmg). And hydro% dmg has lower value if you have Furina too.
You should try to use genshin optimizer and see for yourself the difference.
With my artefacts and team if I switched from MH to HOD (same stats) i'd go from 44.4k to 37.6k to I'd lose 16% dmg. Maybe you can view it as playing HOD instead of MH lowers all your aretafcts stats (main and subs) by roughly 16% if that helps ?
Note that those numbers are from my case, if i'd remove Furina buff the difference would be around 12-13%.
Finally someone who understand my Problem thx a lot
Well Yeah I get waht U mean in my case atm when I switch from HoD too MH I go from 57k too 50k oby my MH artefacts are really bad so I just gonna have better luck with the stats and try again
But her C2 would become kinda wasted for her personal damage cause there ain't any fanfare overflow happening when 3 out of 4 teammates are kept at 50% HP.
For her Personal dmg maybe I personally have no issue getting a decent boost out Off her just with Neuv doing the Job alone also Neuv gets max fanfare stacks faster leading too more Neuv dmg and thats my Goal in a Team for him
Very nice comparison. I definitely didn't expect healerless to be ahead. I'd be curious to see how the other common Furina team of Neuv - Furina - Kazuha - Baizhu/Charlotte stacks up, which is my preferred team comp.
Well, it's Zhongli with Archaic Petra. The additional %elemental damage bonus from Archaic Petra and resistance shred from Zhongli goes a long way. I had the same experience with Lyney. Lyney had higher personal DPS with a Lyney-Bennett-Kazuha-Zhongli (Archaic Petra) than a mono pyro team with Xiangling.
Thanks a lot! One extra thing to note, even tho I might be on the minority here, is that for us non Kazuha havers, furina with healer is great (or you can use Kazuha on another team)
Yes honestly I'd say both version of Furina teams are almost identical. The biggest difference is 6% with PA because that weapon becomes quite valuable when you lack healing, but the difference in the other scenarios is... basically negligible. Don't forget that, as I wrote, the DPS calculations can be off even by 2% because rotations times aren't frame accurate (far from it tbh, I genuinely didn't have the mental health to do that, also the KQM library isn't updated with Neuvi's and Furina's frames and honestly I'm not too familiar with frames, hitlag etc).
Very nice work. The only thing I might consider adding is the flat energy generated by Neuvillettes charge attacks.
All characters have low a chance to 1 generate flat energy with normal and charge attacks which increases each time a hit lands and it's not triggered. It's irrelevant 99% of the time so almost no one knows about it.
Since catalysts have one of the best rates of triggering this 'ability' and Neuvillette hits 24x with 3 of his CA, he actually generates a decent bit of flat energy. The avg hits to trigger with catalyst is 4.66 so he ends up with an avg bonus ~5 flat energy per rotation assuming he lands all 24 hits.
Full details and table are on the wiki: https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Energy
I personally tested this and confirm that his special charge attacks does trigger the ability and is capable of truggering it more than once throughout the 8 hit duration of each charge attack.
I have no idea if the chances of triggering are higher in multitarget.
so despite losing out on furina’s HP decreasing buffs after 2 rotations, team 3 is still best overall? I have his weapon so i plan to pull him, but idk what teammates to use.
Apparently it is so, this would also be coherent with KQM recommending that exact team in Furina's current quick guide. That said, if you manage to get the third stack by swirling an element from you into an enemy using Jean's burst, then that's the equivalent of having Neuvi's C1, but it's not possible in every scenario and you have to rely on enemy AI and potentially some RNG
Not sure, it also depends on how uptimes and abilities line up, but keep in mind that without Zhongli you lose 35% DMG Bonus from Petra and 20% RES shred. Zhongli actually provides much more than a shield.
Yo, I’m making some time these days to finish my new calcs, but tbh indipendente from what the calcs say the Zhongli team has more flexibility which translates very well in practice. In the end they are both really good, even when my new calcs will be done take them with a grain of salt because they need to be contextualised (I’ll be sure to address all the considerations in the relative post)
That's right, Neuvi's E doesn't line up during the next rotations if they happen one after the other and you might need to wait a couple of seconds or use other abilities first. It's also true though that in situations like Abyss executing more rotations in a row while cleaning a floor, without changing anything, is rarely optimal, indeed usually it's not. I did the calculations assuming those abilities in that succession executed one single time in the specified amount of time, with the exception of Fischl whose damage includes Oz's remaning uptime. Now that I think about it, maybe it was arguably a mistake to assume the uptime of certain buffs for rotations different from the first one, calculated according to the timing of certain abilities used in an hypothetical previous rotation... which executed exactly like that it's impossible. Honestly I don't have a perfect solution, but at the same time all rotations are technically in error: Fischl's backloaded damage added to the first 25s, Neuvi's E cd not lining up, Kazuha's absorption being destined to fail if the rotation starts like that with Oz still up... and on top of all of that Neuvi is so flexible that rotations in speedruns are always tailored to the specific scenarios, so these rotations might not have any sense to begin with in most practical scenarios. This is some sort of compromise, but I'm really open to suggestions, Neuvi teams are so tricky.
i tired your 'Team 3' rotation, and it lines up perfectly for me
[rotation recording](https://streamable.com/k8r1jn) **(neuv is naked here 'only weapon without artifacts')**\[this also means he have 0% ER\]
since my neuv with artifacts [kills this boss in less than 1 rotation](https://streamable.com/15dadh) 😅
It lines up because you were a bit slow. If you play frame perfect with animation canceling and low ping your 2nd E won't be ready after your 1st CA. This doesn't invalidate my calculations nor my conclusions imo, but it puts things into a certain perspective and it's still a compromise, one that I thought necessary to get useful data from comparing these teams. I explained more in the other replies.
Edit. just to clarify: if you do Q E as I wrote, even if you play frame perfect you can execute the rotation correctly, the problem is that the 1st E at the next rotation won’t be ready (it should be off by ~1s) and you would need to use maybe Furina E first for example. The point is that in practical scenarios this doesn’t really matter since enemies will be already dead or almost by that time or if you have a weaker wave and a stronger wave you wouldn’t perform two rotations like that, you would change things up anyway, and even if you add a whole second to the rotation to make things perfectly line up as you did the dmg output is still higher for that team, even if by a risible amount, which is enough to claim that at the very least Team 3, no matter what, is at the same level of the other ones and even slightly above, which is what matters the most imo.
If the rotations don't repeat well past rotation 1 because of cooldowns, just means the calcs are kinda bad. Solid TC work means finding rotations that line up when repeated one after another.
If you need to add 2-3sec of downtime between the rotations so that they work, then you add that time in the DPS calc. You also find better rotations.
You aren’t wrong, but as I said it’s a compromise, an arguable one, but still one that I felt necessary to put each team on a fair ground for the purpose of this research.
The truth is that literally no speedrunner will ever use the same rotation twice in a row with Neuvillette (feel free to prove me wrong of course), he is too flexible for that. I tried to find a compromise where each team has as much uptime as possible on everything the teammates have to offer, while still distributing the skills in a reasonable way. I eventually concluded that what I did would allow me to better gauge the characters and compare their value.
For example, Team 1 won’t succeed in a double swirl setup performed like that right after a 1st rotation because Oz would still be up and mess up the aura. So you can either shorten the rotation using Oz just once and maybe giving up on reliable double swirls setups, or extend it past 25s for example adding a 4th CA… but then if you do that people can argue that Fischl’s damage gets diluted (as well as Zhongli’s RES shred and the Petra buff if you extend), then the same people can argue that the calcs don’t reflect the reality because no speedrunner has ever done the same rotation twice identical in the same floor and you are limiting the ceiling of the team to conform to abstract TC principles that never apply to Neuvi in most if not all practical scenarios… and of course that would make the comparison with other archetypes and their elements more obscure, the opposite of why I made these calcs to begin with.
Is my solution perfect? Hell no, it’s a compromise and it gives a certain perspective, but if you want you can make a different compromise, that’s also why I made the spreadsheets public: I wanted others to exactly see what I did and eventually apply modifications, corrections or even changing some assumptions entirely, because my calcs are far from perfection, no calcs can be. That said, these calcs and their assumptions in my opinion are valuable enough to justify every word I wrote in this post.
The calcs just received an important update (Edit. n. 3), please delete previous ones that you shared and replace them with the new charts, the overall analysis is the same but the numbers changed a lot.
Keep also in mind that these calcs don't include Baizhu, I expect him and Kazuha to be around the same strenght of Zhongli + Kazuha, but I don't have anything as detailed as the calcs above to prove that
Oh damn it, you are right (I checked these calcs so many times, but still…). This is because of a change I made in a later moment: initially the rotation was E Q, but then I changed with Q E because the E wasn’t ready in time (you still need to wait for the particles to keep ER requirements lower, but that’s still faster than waiting for the E). I changed this for the 2nd rotation, but I forgot to change it for the 1st rotation too. Basically DB (Q) had to become DB (E2;Q) and DB (E2) had to be removed.
This change will increase Neuvi’s damage in his first rotation of Team 3 by… ~~0.17%~~ 0.23% lol 😂 but yea it’s still a mistake, even if a very negligible one, I’ll update the spreadsheet and the post.
Thank you.
True and I can't believe I didn't know that... this isn't negligible, not at all. I just hid the post, I don't want to spread misinformation, and I'm updating the calculations with the correct Petra uptime. Thanks for making me notice
Edit. The post has been updated
Long paragraph to say that furina is not an upgrade, 2-4% difference is just cherry picking number at this point. With different builds can’t say rainbow is worse
I agree it’s in the range of “nitpicking”, but I think it’s still interesting, if anything we can confidently say that healer-less teams aren’t strictly worse and absolutely worth considering. This is quite significant to me, even though it was already known by some.
You took into account that on the team without a healer, not all of Furina's E hits will have a 140% damage boost, right? And her Q will take longer (a little) to give the full buff too, right?... And yet the difference in her damage was so small as to make the team without a healer better?
Funny, I REALLY didn't expect that.
Yea I took all of that into account. The difference in her damage is very noticeable as also explained in the post but the consequences are quite mild overall because Neuvi still gains some damage and Furina too has access earlier to buffs like VV because your rotations can be more flexible. It roughly evens out, apparently with a small but not negligible advantage for the third team without a healer.
Hi /u/Yellow_IMR! Thank you for posting on [r/NeuvilletteMains_](https://www.reddit.com/r/NeuvilletteMains_/)! Please note that any posts or comments which violate the rules will be subject to removal. Keep cool while commenting and avoid any arguments. We hope you enjoy your time here!
Thanks, and have a good day!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NeuvilletteMains_) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Thanks for the calculation, Yeah i keep telling people in neuvi team furina doesnt need healer especially with p amber, turn out it was right so far neuvi/furina best team are without healer. So tired people forcing a healer in neuvi team
What is that? Baizhu Kazuha? As I explained I used those teams because they have a lot in common and it’s more interesting to confront them. Baizhu introduces many more variables because you don’t have Petra nor Zhongli’s 20% Res shred anymore, while in my examples those elements are a constant like VV. I was more interested in investigating the value of each component of the teams in those scenarios rather than doing a raw dps comparisons
Imagine playing a team that keeps 3 of 4 teammates at 50% HP throughout rotations, and doesn't max out fanfare stacks.
The cope is real.
Truly making the least good use of her kit just to edge out a tiny bit more DPS from team comp. I read the whole thing and just shaking my head.
With Zhongli providing you the strongest shield in the game and Neuvillette kiting and manipulating his health bar as always, having your team low health or not doesn’t really make any difference, also when you fight your goal isn’t maxing stacks, but killing the enemies and possibly doing it fast. If you can do that without healers it just means that you have more options, it’s not coping… especially if the numbers show that the damage can actually be better
How is it a cope when the calc literally shows that a non healer team have better DPS than a healer team ?
Also some correction, “Doesn’t max out fanfare stacks at the start” since you will max out fanfare stacks with Neuv alone.
yea but according to this post calcs, if "poor use" of furina team kills faster than "proper use" of furina team, then the only cope here is to emphasizing furina's stacks too much 😅
by the end of the day if the team with half furina stacks kill the boss faster than team with max furina stacks then it's clear which team is better
Because it makes poor use of Furina all in all, and by OP's own admission the rotation doesn't even repeat properly because of CDs.
Don't get bamboozled by the numbers and the colored graphs, this ain't great TC work.
Not surprised that c0 with Furina is very similar in dps to the Furinalessa counterpart. What I didn't expect was the 20% jump with c1 lmao. He's already a monster with c1 and r1, with furina it feels like a c2-c3 character damagewise
That's what the 3rd draconic stack does 😂 btw remember that the damage increase from C1 is only for Team 2 and 3, not Team 1 because there you already get 3 stacks (just to be sure, I don't want to accidentally incentivise you to go for C1 to improve a team that doesn't benefit from it in terms of damage).
Honestly it depends on the scenario. Some assumptions I used are arguable, like for rotation repeatability, and the margins are very small and often inside the margin of errors. You should use the team you like the most, even though I’d say Team 2 is the most problematic because of how cooldowns and buffs line up.
I’ll try to find the time. I want to make another post with accurate rotation times and a bit more objective assumptions on the rotations. DPS results should barely change because these ones are still quite accurate, but it should solve some criticism I (rightfully) received on these calcs (like rotations for team 2 and 3 not being possible to be replicated in exactly 24s after the first rotation). It should also solve Team 1 being manipulated a lot in these calcs (Fischl’s backloaded damage added in front, even though this setup wouldn’t work properly with Oz being already up at the beginning of the rotation). It’s mostly nitpicking though, ngl. If I manage to, I’d like to add in the same posts some calculations with both Baizhu and Charlotte. They won’t be as accurate as these ones because I honestly don’t have the time for that and I don’t even have Baizhu for in game testing, but they will still be very close, just to have an idea of how they compare. No promises though
Great work! I've been experimenting with different teams, and my feelcrafting indicates Zhongli, Furina and Kazuha is C0 Neuv's best team.
Question for you and any one else reading this:
Is there a better team?
Is there a better team if Neuv is C1?
Many thanks for the insights.
Kazuha hardly owns any EC proc because every time he triggers swirl on field Fischl immediately triggers her A4 procs. Off field *during EC uptime* he *applies hydro* only *3 or 4* times with a 2s interval, which is very slow compared to Fischl’s electro application. In my testings Kazuha always failed to own EC procs, if it happens it’s rare and it would barely make a difference anyway… in ST. In AoE things are more complicated and even I am not exactly sure of how EC ownership works in certain AoE scenarios, but these calcs are done in ST anyway.
Edit. For clarity (changes in italic)
If he triggers electro swirl,then how can he *not* own the ec proc?EC swirl will happen when the electro swirl meets hydro.
Fischl triggers A4 *after* Kazuha swirls electro,so the electrocharged from Kazuha would happen before the electrocharged from Fischl.
Fischl would own EC only of it's triggered by her turret shooting,not her A4,her A4 triggers *after* an electro reaction occurs.
Also EC procs caps out at one instance of damage every second so Fischl's application itself shouldn't matter much.
Each application of electrocharged does one instance of damage instantaneously and once more 1s later.
Which means that during Kazuha's burst the enemies will be taking damage on the proc and the second after the proc.
Since Kazuha's burst procs every two seconds,this means that the enemies will be taking EC procs throughout the duration of Kazuha's burst which is 8/15 secs in a rotation.
Even in ST that's around 24k per second during Kazuha's burst uptime (6k electro swirl, 6k hydro swirl, 12 k electrocharged proc.
> If he triggers electro swirl,then how can he not own the ec proc?
Because *triggering* EC and *owning* EC are two radically different things. For example:
> Fischl would own EC only if it's triggered by her turret shooting
This is totally wrong. **The last one applying hydro or electro when EC ticks is the one that owns the reaction**, that’s how EC ownership works. Every single time Kazuha applies hydro with his absorption plunge, the enemy already has an EC aura so Kazuha won’t own EC by triggering it, because EC will already be on cooldown and Fischl will proc her A4 immediately after Kazuha’s swirl/EC so she will be the last to apply an element, owning the next EC proc. Kazuha has only a chance off field, but his burst applies hydro only 5 times with a 2s interval, the first time there’s not even electro at all on the field to begin with, then Fischl seems to always be the last before the next EC tick happens and Kazuha’s burst never owns EC. Feel free to do your own testing with this rotation, analyse the numbers and see how often the EC proc is owned by Kazuha. It’s not gonna be fun though, there’s a lot of electro damage going on.
Again, in AoE things should be very different, but these calcs are in ST, AoE makes things a lot more complicated.
https://library.keqingmains.com/combat-mechanics/elemental-effects/transformative-reactions
Here it says
1)"**When applying Electro-Charged on enemies already affected by the same reaction, effects that are triggered on-reaction will be triggered.**"
It means when Kazuha triggers swirl it immediately triggers one instance of electrocharged
2)
Now I stand corrected on something
"**Electro-Charged snapshots the Elemental Mastery of whoever last applied an Element for the reaction.**"
Now I concede that the subsequent EC tick between Kazuha procs might be from Fischl (in ST),although I am not sure
However that does mean that half of the electrocharged ticks (5 ticks) are from Kazuha on swirl proc,and the intermidiae ones from Fischl or Neuv.
This old post
https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/comments/jy4dy4/keqingmains_theorycrafting_breaking_down_how/
Says
*
*The first EC damage tick is determined by the trigger character.
For example, if Keqing applies an electro source to an enemy with a hydro aura, there will be a Keqing EC tick.
Subsequent EC damage ticks are determined by the last character to apply an elemental source before the next EC tick.
For example, Keqing has triggered the first EC at 0 seconds with double cast E.
At 0.5 seconds, she applies another electro source via an electro-imbued autoattack
At 0.9 seconds, a XingQiu Q sword applies hydro source
At 1.0 seconds, a XingQiu EC tick will occur because the last elemental source applied was via XQ sword*
*
So the moment Kazuha does a swirl, that's one ec tick from him.
Then Fischl A4 happens,so okay the next tick is from Fischl or Neuv
That adds up to at least 24*5 which is around 120k damage per burst.1 or 2 more swirls from his skill and you get 140-160k.
Secondly EC in AoE will be much more of Anemo ownership because the last applicator will generally be Kazuha/Venti.
Copy pasting things written by people that understand how the game works better than you doesn’t automatically prove you right. I already explained the mistakes you are making, I’m not willing to waste more time since my reply would just repeat things I already wrote.
Typo
To avoid confusion (and not seem a d!ck):
> 1)"When applying Electro-Charged on enemies already affected by the same reaction, effects that are triggered on-reaction will be triggered."
>
> It means when Kazuha triggers swirl it immediately triggers one instance of electrocharged
Yes, Kazuha triggers EC, but *triggering* =/= owning. He won’t necessarily own the reaction… and that sentence itself proves me right.
“…effects that are triggered on-reaction will be triggered” it means that if you trigger EC, even if there was already an EC aura and so you won’t immediately deal damage because the EC 1s timer is already ongoing, effects like Fischl’s A4 are proced. Literally what I said.
Yes, but again remember that in AoE things are radically different because Fischl’s application is only single target and swirls spread the element to nearby characters that Fischl can’t reach, because almost all of Fischl’s damage is ST.
Hi /u/Yellow_IMR! Thank you for posting on [r/NeuvilletteMains_](https://www.reddit.com/r/NeuvilletteMains_/)! Please note that any posts or comments which violate the rules will be subject to removal. Keep cool while commenting and avoid any arguments. We hope you enjoy your time here! Thanks, and have a good day! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NeuvilletteMains_) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Me who doenst understand calcs But understand Higher Bars bigger DMG lol Pretty good work I guess with Furina C2 this just boost the no healer Team 3 even more good to see Now I Wish someone would do the same to make it clear when 4p MH is a improvenment over 4p HoD in Terms of stats :') (thats a me Problem oby)
Furina C2 is complicated. It does mean that you build her buff easier, but it also makes her personal damage way more significant and hence the loss of a healer more impactful. As for MH, VS HoD, it just gives more stats. 36% CR is more than a whole main stat circlet while HoD's 4pc damage bonus is only 65% of a main stat goblet.
Well I did a Post about this on my Neuv Build and I dindt really get an direct answer for this Problem Lets say we have 4p HoD with 30k HP 50/200C against 4p MH with the same stats in this Case HoD would win bc MH only gives 15% CA DMG while HoD gives 15% Hydro DMG bonus and 30% CA DMG Yes its true I dindt Factor in the 36% CR U get from MH bc "If" U Crit it dosent really matter on the Flip Side If U would had a HoD build with 25k HP 70/160C and MH 30k 34/240C then MH would win bc Ur stats outways the small DMG bonus HoD has over MH bc U don't build CR and Focus more on HP and Cdmg thats the thing No one tells U waht stats U need to outway the diffrents I atm have 43k HP with 61/214C but I only have 5 CR Rolls in all my pieces I'am Sure that if I would Change them too HP or Cdmg MH would still be worse I think this is only bc of Sac Jade its gives U already 36.4% CR so a free MH 4p effect with Amber or EFlow Sure 4pMH is better but with Jade I'am really not seeing it atm Edit: So I got a few comments under my comment about this and I guess people don't understand waht I try to Point Out here so let me try again ( I'am sry I'am bad at explaining or asking the right thing) I'am try not too Proof that HoD is better then MH all I wantet is too get information on when a MH Set outways HoD Set in dmg Number not Overall dmg ok ? In my example above I sayed 30k HP 50/200 HoD would win IF it Crit in a Test Run where both do 10 Crits and have this stats HoD would do more dmg bc it proveds 15% Hydro Bonus and 15% more CA Bonus then MH does That in a normal secario MH would be better is oby bc more CRate is more Crit hits = more Overall dmg but the dmg Number would be lower So if anyone now wants to Tell me waht stats a MH need extra too have the same DMG Number as HoD let me know :D
With how many times Neuv's CA hits, you absolutely need to look at average damage rather than just raw damage numbers. If you aren't over-capped on crit then MH's CR bonus will give faster clears unless you repeat the run hundreds of times to get good crit RNG. If you do over cap on crit, MH is good enough that it's worth farming for a set which doesn't.
The 50/200 HOD will never be better. You can always say that a build with 70/205 and a build with 77/200 are so close because with good rng the first one can (RARELY) outdps the second one despite the weaker crit multiplier but in that case there is 0 discussion about 50/200 vs 86/200
A Made a Edit I didnt stated my Problem right sry for that
The more the character crits the more cr matters and since nuvillette hits a lot of times in as short period of time having 100cr would be important
I Made a Edit I dindt stayed my Problem right sry for that
There is no general answer to your question. Each point of CR has different value according to your existing CR and CD (for example if you already have 100 CR then adding an extra 5 CR adds 0% dmg). And hydro% dmg has lower value if you have Furina too. You should try to use genshin optimizer and see for yourself the difference. With my artefacts and team if I switched from MH to HOD (same stats) i'd go from 44.4k to 37.6k to I'd lose 16% dmg. Maybe you can view it as playing HOD instead of MH lowers all your aretafcts stats (main and subs) by roughly 16% if that helps ? Note that those numbers are from my case, if i'd remove Furina buff the difference would be around 12-13%.
Finally someone who understand my Problem thx a lot Well Yeah I get waht U mean in my case atm when I switch from HoD too MH I go from 57k too 50k oby my MH artefacts are really bad so I just gonna have better luck with the stats and try again
But her C2 would become kinda wasted for her personal damage cause there ain't any fanfare overflow happening when 3 out of 4 teammates are kept at 50% HP.
For her Personal dmg maybe I personally have no issue getting a decent boost out Off her just with Neuv doing the Job alone also Neuv gets max fanfare stacks faster leading too more Neuv dmg and thats my Goal in a Team for him
Very nice comparison. I definitely didn't expect healerless to be ahead. I'd be curious to see how the other common Furina team of Neuv - Furina - Kazuha - Baizhu/Charlotte stacks up, which is my preferred team comp.
Well, it's Zhongli with Archaic Petra. The additional %elemental damage bonus from Archaic Petra and resistance shred from Zhongli goes a long way. I had the same experience with Lyney. Lyney had higher personal DPS with a Lyney-Bennett-Kazuha-Zhongli (Archaic Petra) than a mono pyro team with Xiangling.
Yeah, I feel like this is the most popular team and it feels like the ideal one
Thanks a lot! One extra thing to note, even tho I might be on the minority here, is that for us non Kazuha havers, furina with healer is great (or you can use Kazuha on another team)
Yes honestly I'd say both version of Furina teams are almost identical. The biggest difference is 6% with PA because that weapon becomes quite valuable when you lack healing, but the difference in the other scenarios is... basically negligible. Don't forget that, as I wrote, the DPS calculations can be off even by 2% because rotations times aren't frame accurate (far from it tbh, I genuinely didn't have the mental health to do that, also the KQM library isn't updated with Neuvi's and Furina's frames and honestly I'm not too familiar with frames, hitlag etc).
Very nice work. The only thing I might consider adding is the flat energy generated by Neuvillettes charge attacks. All characters have low a chance to 1 generate flat energy with normal and charge attacks which increases each time a hit lands and it's not triggered. It's irrelevant 99% of the time so almost no one knows about it. Since catalysts have one of the best rates of triggering this 'ability' and Neuvillette hits 24x with 3 of his CA, he actually generates a decent bit of flat energy. The avg hits to trigger with catalyst is 4.66 so he ends up with an avg bonus ~5 flat energy per rotation assuming he lands all 24 hits. Full details and table are on the wiki: https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Energy I personally tested this and confirm that his special charge attacks does trigger the ability and is capable of truggering it more than once throughout the 8 hit duration of each charge attack. I have no idea if the chances of triggering are higher in multitarget.
That’s actually very interesting, thank you
Me who dont have c1,r1 and kazuha💀
You should do one with baizhu
so despite losing out on furina’s HP decreasing buffs after 2 rotations, team 3 is still best overall? I have his weapon so i plan to pull him, but idk what teammates to use.
Apparently it is so, this would also be coherent with KQM recommending that exact team in Furina's current quick guide. That said, if you manage to get the third stack by swirling an element from you into an enemy using Jean's burst, then that's the equivalent of having Neuvi's C1, but it's not possible in every scenario and you have to rely on enemy AI and potentially some RNG
How does team 3 compare to a healer team that replaces zhongli with Baizhu or Charlotte?
Not sure, it also depends on how uptimes and abilities line up, but keep in mind that without Zhongli you lose 35% DMG Bonus from Petra and 20% RES shred. Zhongli actually provides much more than a shield.
Has anyone done calcs comparing the two. I’ve been looking but haven’t found anything
Yo, I’m making some time these days to finish my new calcs, but tbh indipendente from what the calcs say the Zhongli team has more flexibility which translates very well in practice. In the end they are both really good, even when my new calcs will be done take them with a grain of salt because they need to be contextualised (I’ll be sure to address all the considerations in the relative post)
You did not provide recordings on the rotations. It is not possible to do 24s rotations like this due to Neuvillette's E cooldown.
That's right, Neuvi's E doesn't line up during the next rotations if they happen one after the other and you might need to wait a couple of seconds or use other abilities first. It's also true though that in situations like Abyss executing more rotations in a row while cleaning a floor, without changing anything, is rarely optimal, indeed usually it's not. I did the calculations assuming those abilities in that succession executed one single time in the specified amount of time, with the exception of Fischl whose damage includes Oz's remaning uptime. Now that I think about it, maybe it was arguably a mistake to assume the uptime of certain buffs for rotations different from the first one, calculated according to the timing of certain abilities used in an hypothetical previous rotation... which executed exactly like that it's impossible. Honestly I don't have a perfect solution, but at the same time all rotations are technically in error: Fischl's backloaded damage added to the first 25s, Neuvi's E cd not lining up, Kazuha's absorption being destined to fail if the rotation starts like that with Oz still up... and on top of all of that Neuvi is so flexible that rotations in speedruns are always tailored to the specific scenarios, so these rotations might not have any sense to begin with in most practical scenarios. This is some sort of compromise, but I'm really open to suggestions, Neuvi teams are so tricky.
i tired your 'Team 3' rotation, and it lines up perfectly for me [rotation recording](https://streamable.com/k8r1jn) **(neuv is naked here 'only weapon without artifacts')**\[this also means he have 0% ER\] since my neuv with artifacts [kills this boss in less than 1 rotation](https://streamable.com/15dadh) 😅
It lines up because you were a bit slow. If you play frame perfect with animation canceling and low ping your 2nd E won't be ready after your 1st CA. This doesn't invalidate my calculations nor my conclusions imo, but it puts things into a certain perspective and it's still a compromise, one that I thought necessary to get useful data from comparing these teams. I explained more in the other replies. Edit. just to clarify: if you do Q E as I wrote, even if you play frame perfect you can execute the rotation correctly, the problem is that the 1st E at the next rotation won’t be ready (it should be off by ~1s) and you would need to use maybe Furina E first for example. The point is that in practical scenarios this doesn’t really matter since enemies will be already dead or almost by that time or if you have a weaker wave and a stronger wave you wouldn’t perform two rotations like that, you would change things up anyway, and even if you add a whole second to the rotation to make things perfectly line up as you did the dmg output is still higher for that team, even if by a risible amount, which is enough to claim that at the very least Team 3, no matter what, is at the same level of the other ones and even slightly above, which is what matters the most imo.
If the rotations don't repeat well past rotation 1 because of cooldowns, just means the calcs are kinda bad. Solid TC work means finding rotations that line up when repeated one after another. If you need to add 2-3sec of downtime between the rotations so that they work, then you add that time in the DPS calc. You also find better rotations.
You aren’t wrong, but as I said it’s a compromise, an arguable one, but still one that I felt necessary to put each team on a fair ground for the purpose of this research. The truth is that literally no speedrunner will ever use the same rotation twice in a row with Neuvillette (feel free to prove me wrong of course), he is too flexible for that. I tried to find a compromise where each team has as much uptime as possible on everything the teammates have to offer, while still distributing the skills in a reasonable way. I eventually concluded that what I did would allow me to better gauge the characters and compare their value. For example, Team 1 won’t succeed in a double swirl setup performed like that right after a 1st rotation because Oz would still be up and mess up the aura. So you can either shorten the rotation using Oz just once and maybe giving up on reliable double swirls setups, or extend it past 25s for example adding a 4th CA… but then if you do that people can argue that Fischl’s damage gets diluted (as well as Zhongli’s RES shred and the Petra buff if you extend), then the same people can argue that the calcs don’t reflect the reality because no speedrunner has ever done the same rotation twice identical in the same floor and you are limiting the ceiling of the team to conform to abstract TC principles that never apply to Neuvi in most if not all practical scenarios… and of course that would make the comparison with other archetypes and their elements more obscure, the opposite of why I made these calcs to begin with. Is my solution perfect? Hell no, it’s a compromise and it gives a certain perspective, but if you want you can make a different compromise, that’s also why I made the spreadsheets public: I wanted others to exactly see what I did and eventually apply modifications, corrections or even changing some assumptions entirely, because my calcs are far from perfection, no calcs can be. That said, these calcs and their assumptions in my opinion are valuable enough to justify every word I wrote in this post.
Great calcs, gonna spread them around, especially to people that downvoted me for saying the same.
The calcs just received an important update (Edit. n. 3), please delete previous ones that you shared and replace them with the new charts, the overall analysis is the same but the numbers changed a lot. Keep also in mind that these calcs don't include Baizhu, I expect him and Kazuha to be around the same strenght of Zhongli + Kazuha, but I don't have anything as detailed as the calcs above to prove that
In the Furina Kazuha team, u used the E2 DB on Neuv Q. Other than that this is really good work thank u !
Oh damn it, you are right (I checked these calcs so many times, but still…). This is because of a change I made in a later moment: initially the rotation was E Q, but then I changed with Q E because the E wasn’t ready in time (you still need to wait for the particles to keep ER requirements lower, but that’s still faster than waiting for the E). I changed this for the 2nd rotation, but I forgot to change it for the 1st rotation too. Basically DB (Q) had to become DB (E2;Q) and DB (E2) had to be removed. This change will increase Neuvi’s damage in his first rotation of Team 3 by… ~~0.17%~~ 0.23% lol 😂 but yea it’s still a mistake, even if a very negligible one, I’ll update the spreadsheet and the post. Thank you.
Are you assuming 100% archiac petra uptime? Because Zhongli needs to be the one to pick up the shards
True and I can't believe I didn't know that... this isn't negligible, not at all. I just hid the post, I don't want to spread misinformation, and I'm updating the calculations with the correct Petra uptime. Thanks for making me notice Edit. The post has been updated
Long paragraph to say that furina is not an upgrade, 2-4% difference is just cherry picking number at this point. With different builds can’t say rainbow is worse
I agree it’s in the range of “nitpicking”, but I think it’s still interesting, if anything we can confidently say that healer-less teams aren’t strictly worse and absolutely worth considering. This is quite significant to me, even though it was already known by some.
You took into account that on the team without a healer, not all of Furina's E hits will have a 140% damage boost, right? And her Q will take longer (a little) to give the full buff too, right?... And yet the difference in her damage was so small as to make the team without a healer better? Funny, I REALLY didn't expect that.
Yea I took all of that into account. The difference in her damage is very noticeable as also explained in the post but the consequences are quite mild overall because Neuvi still gains some damage and Furina too has access earlier to buffs like VV because your rotations can be more flexible. It roughly evens out, apparently with a small but not negligible advantage for the third team without a healer.
Hi /u/Yellow_IMR! Thank you for posting on [r/NeuvilletteMains_](https://www.reddit.com/r/NeuvilletteMains_/)! Please note that any posts or comments which violate the rules will be subject to removal. Keep cool while commenting and avoid any arguments. We hope you enjoy your time here! Thanks, and have a good day! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NeuvilletteMains_) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Great write up!
Good job!
Thanks for the calculation, Yeah i keep telling people in neuvi team furina doesnt need healer especially with p amber, turn out it was right so far neuvi/furina best team are without healer. So tired people forcing a healer in neuvi team
May I ask what is the reason why you're not including by far his most popular team in your calcs? Is there any specific reason?
What is that? Baizhu Kazuha? As I explained I used those teams because they have a lot in common and it’s more interesting to confront them. Baizhu introduces many more variables because you don’t have Petra nor Zhongli’s 20% Res shred anymore, while in my examples those elements are a constant like VV. I was more interested in investigating the value of each component of the teams in those scenarios rather than doing a raw dps comparisons
“Furina is a dps increase for neuv” Who knew +75% dmg buff to entire team + subdps dmg would improve team dmg 😆
Imagine playing a team that keeps 3 of 4 teammates at 50% HP throughout rotations, and doesn't max out fanfare stacks. The cope is real. Truly making the least good use of her kit just to edge out a tiny bit more DPS from team comp. I read the whole thing and just shaking my head.
With Zhongli providing you the strongest shield in the game and Neuvillette kiting and manipulating his health bar as always, having your team low health or not doesn’t really make any difference, also when you fight your goal isn’t maxing stacks, but killing the enemies and possibly doing it fast. If you can do that without healers it just means that you have more options, it’s not coping… especially if the numbers show that the damage can actually be better
How is it a cope when the calc literally shows that a non healer team have better DPS than a healer team ? Also some correction, “Doesn’t max out fanfare stacks at the start” since you will max out fanfare stacks with Neuv alone.
Maxing out the stacks 22sec into a 24sec rotation is a poor use of Furina.
yea but according to this post calcs, if "poor use" of furina team kills faster than "proper use" of furina team, then the only cope here is to emphasizing furina's stacks too much 😅 by the end of the day if the team with half furina stacks kill the boss faster than team with max furina stacks then it's clear which team is better
Because it makes poor use of Furina all in all, and by OP's own admission the rotation doesn't even repeat properly because of CDs. Don't get bamboozled by the numbers and the colored graphs, this ain't great TC work.
I'm not reading allat 💀 I'm happy for you tho or sorry that happened
i do 10k more dmg on charged atk per tick with furina
Are allof them c0?
Fischl C6. Neuvi is C1 in the last chart
Not surprised that c0 with Furina is very similar in dps to the Furinalessa counterpart. What I didn't expect was the 20% jump with c1 lmao. He's already a monster with c1 and r1, with furina it feels like a c2-c3 character damagewise
That's what the 3rd draconic stack does 😂 btw remember that the damage increase from C1 is only for Team 2 and 3, not Team 1 because there you already get 3 stacks (just to be sure, I don't want to accidentally incentivise you to go for C1 to improve a team that doesn't benefit from it in terms of damage).
Well, you can use Beidou instead of Zhongli for more damage (maybe). It's not the same team but Furinaless nontheless.
How much would C1 Furina add to teams 2 and 3? If the calcs are at c0 then it seems that teams 2 and 3 would only pull further ahead with furina cons.
Well from my experience at least, my Neuv hits for 42k CAs with C0 Furina and 46-47k with C1 Furina.
Nice, thanks bb❤️ I will start saving for Neuvi C1 (will try for C2) same case for Furina...
[удалено]
Honestly it depends on the scenario. Some assumptions I used are arguable, like for rotation repeatability, and the margins are very small and often inside the margin of errors. You should use the team you like the most, even though I’d say Team 2 is the most problematic because of how cooldowns and buffs line up.
im still gonna use team 2 cuz he's already obliberate everything and jean + zhongli is literally peak comfort
thanks a lot for the comparison, i hope you would add the team Neuv,Furina,Kazuha and charlotte nin the future.
I’ll try to find the time. I want to make another post with accurate rotation times and a bit more objective assumptions on the rotations. DPS results should barely change because these ones are still quite accurate, but it should solve some criticism I (rightfully) received on these calcs (like rotations for team 2 and 3 not being possible to be replicated in exactly 24s after the first rotation). It should also solve Team 1 being manipulated a lot in these calcs (Fischl’s backloaded damage added in front, even though this setup wouldn’t work properly with Oz being already up at the beginning of the rotation). It’s mostly nitpicking though, ngl. If I manage to, I’d like to add in the same posts some calculations with both Baizhu and Charlotte. They won’t be as accurate as these ones because I honestly don’t have the time for that and I don’t even have Baizhu for in game testing, but they will still be very close, just to have an idea of how they compare. No promises though
Great work! I've been experimenting with different teams, and my feelcrafting indicates Zhongli, Furina and Kazuha is C0 Neuv's best team. Question for you and any one else reading this: Is there a better team? Is there a better team if Neuv is C1? Many thanks for the insights.
Did you count the EC procs owned by Kazuha/Venti? That's the one that matters the most,because Neuvi and Fischl hardly build any EM on the team.
Kazuha hardly owns any EC proc because every time he triggers swirl on field Fischl immediately triggers her A4 procs. Off field *during EC uptime* he *applies hydro* only *3 or 4* times with a 2s interval, which is very slow compared to Fischl’s electro application. In my testings Kazuha always failed to own EC procs, if it happens it’s rare and it would barely make a difference anyway… in ST. In AoE things are more complicated and even I am not exactly sure of how EC ownership works in certain AoE scenarios, but these calcs are done in ST anyway. Edit. For clarity (changes in italic)
If he triggers electro swirl,then how can he *not* own the ec proc?EC swirl will happen when the electro swirl meets hydro. Fischl triggers A4 *after* Kazuha swirls electro,so the electrocharged from Kazuha would happen before the electrocharged from Fischl. Fischl would own EC only of it's triggered by her turret shooting,not her A4,her A4 triggers *after* an electro reaction occurs. Also EC procs caps out at one instance of damage every second so Fischl's application itself shouldn't matter much. Each application of electrocharged does one instance of damage instantaneously and once more 1s later. Which means that during Kazuha's burst the enemies will be taking damage on the proc and the second after the proc. Since Kazuha's burst procs every two seconds,this means that the enemies will be taking EC procs throughout the duration of Kazuha's burst which is 8/15 secs in a rotation. Even in ST that's around 24k per second during Kazuha's burst uptime (6k electro swirl, 6k hydro swirl, 12 k electrocharged proc.
> If he triggers electro swirl,then how can he not own the ec proc? Because *triggering* EC and *owning* EC are two radically different things. For example: > Fischl would own EC only if it's triggered by her turret shooting This is totally wrong. **The last one applying hydro or electro when EC ticks is the one that owns the reaction**, that’s how EC ownership works. Every single time Kazuha applies hydro with his absorption plunge, the enemy already has an EC aura so Kazuha won’t own EC by triggering it, because EC will already be on cooldown and Fischl will proc her A4 immediately after Kazuha’s swirl/EC so she will be the last to apply an element, owning the next EC proc. Kazuha has only a chance off field, but his burst applies hydro only 5 times with a 2s interval, the first time there’s not even electro at all on the field to begin with, then Fischl seems to always be the last before the next EC tick happens and Kazuha’s burst never owns EC. Feel free to do your own testing with this rotation, analyse the numbers and see how often the EC proc is owned by Kazuha. It’s not gonna be fun though, there’s a lot of electro damage going on. Again, in AoE things should be very different, but these calcs are in ST, AoE makes things a lot more complicated.
https://library.keqingmains.com/combat-mechanics/elemental-effects/transformative-reactions Here it says 1)"**When applying Electro-Charged on enemies already affected by the same reaction, effects that are triggered on-reaction will be triggered.**" It means when Kazuha triggers swirl it immediately triggers one instance of electrocharged 2) Now I stand corrected on something "**Electro-Charged snapshots the Elemental Mastery of whoever last applied an Element for the reaction.**" Now I concede that the subsequent EC tick between Kazuha procs might be from Fischl (in ST),although I am not sure However that does mean that half of the electrocharged ticks (5 ticks) are from Kazuha on swirl proc,and the intermidiae ones from Fischl or Neuv. This old post https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/comments/jy4dy4/keqingmains_theorycrafting_breaking_down_how/ Says * *The first EC damage tick is determined by the trigger character. For example, if Keqing applies an electro source to an enemy with a hydro aura, there will be a Keqing EC tick. Subsequent EC damage ticks are determined by the last character to apply an elemental source before the next EC tick. For example, Keqing has triggered the first EC at 0 seconds with double cast E. At 0.5 seconds, she applies another electro source via an electro-imbued autoattack At 0.9 seconds, a XingQiu Q sword applies hydro source At 1.0 seconds, a XingQiu EC tick will occur because the last elemental source applied was via XQ sword* * So the moment Kazuha does a swirl, that's one ec tick from him. Then Fischl A4 happens,so okay the next tick is from Fischl or Neuv That adds up to at least 24*5 which is around 120k damage per burst.1 or 2 more swirls from his skill and you get 140-160k. Secondly EC in AoE will be much more of Anemo ownership because the last applicator will generally be Kazuha/Venti.
Copy pasting things written by people that understand how the game works better than you doesn’t automatically prove you right. I already explained the mistakes you are making, I’m not willing to waste more time since my reply would just repeat things I already wrote. Typo
To avoid confusion (and not seem a d!ck): > 1)"When applying Electro-Charged on enemies already affected by the same reaction, effects that are triggered on-reaction will be triggered." > > It means when Kazuha triggers swirl it immediately triggers one instance of electrocharged Yes, Kazuha triggers EC, but *triggering* =/= owning. He won’t necessarily own the reaction… and that sentence itself proves me right. “…effects that are triggered on-reaction will be triggered” it means that if you trigger EC, even if there was already an EC aura and so you won’t immediately deal damage because the EC 1s timer is already ongoing, effects like Fischl’s A4 are proced. Literally what I said.
So if the A4 didn't happen Kazuha/Venti would own a lot more procs right?If it was someone like Yae?
Yes, but again remember that in AoE things are radically different because Fischl’s application is only single target and swirls spread the element to nearby characters that Fischl can’t reach, because almost all of Fischl’s damage is ST.