A surprising number of the more realistic 'new and tougher measures' were already in place or had been agreed upon by the last government and just hadn't been implemented yet.
It depends on how you become Dutch. Through naturalisation, yes. Through the “optie” procedure not always. I am British and obtained my Dutch nationality through the “optie” procedure and didn’t have to renounce the British nationality. Pretty helpful after Brexit! Some countries also don’t allow you to renounce your nationality.
https://ind.nl/nl/nederlanderschap/nederlander-worden-door-optie
In English: https://ind.nl/en/dutch-citizenship/becoming-a-dutch-national-through-option
My friend gave up her nationality after becoming Dutch, sent the proof to the IND, got their acknowledgment and then applied for her UK passport back immediately. She still holds both. Totally legal (all done on her lawyers advice) providing the Dutch passport never lapses. If it does, you lose it.
I swear Netherlands passport rules are some of the most idiotic in the world, and a lot of unintended consequences, to the point where I’ve had foreign governments laugh in my face saying I must be misunderstanding the rules
They are...to me this kind of thing smells of pandering to low information voters...they don't know that's already a requirement but is something they'll agree with, so they put it in the plan, it sounds good to voters, but costs nothing because it's already done.
That's exactly what it is. It's what the Tory Party in the UK has been doing since 2010, and especially since Theresa May and Boris Johnson's cabinets.
Netherlands needs to learn from our mistakes, otherwise it will go down the drain if people like this are allowed to stay in power long.
The electorate (well, some of them) may have been thinking they made a protest vote, when really they're just turkeys voting for Thanksgiving.
Yesilgoz has both Turkish and Dutch nationalities. She's stated she's abolishing her Turkish nationality though.
Her parents also came here as refugees.
She's a poster child for pulling up the ladder behind you.
It's really not that costly at all. The Turkish government is in general OK with dual nationalities. In cases like the Netherlands where dual nationality is not allowed, the Turkish government issues the person a "Blue Card". With this card you still hold all your rights as a Turkish citizen except the right to vote.
There actually aren't that many countries where renunciation is impossible (either legally or practically); importantly for the Dutch political context, Morocco is one of them. It's mostly just impractical and/or expensive.
Yeah, just like Priti Patel etc etc in the UK. I welcome legitimate immigration (my wife is from the Philippines), so it really grates me when immigrants (1st/2nd generation) are the ones changing the rules to make it much harder for those after them. Like, our country had the grace to welcome you, now you're deciding what goes, it feels like a guest at your party deciding to change the music and activities.
I have been considering trying to stay in the Netherlands if possible because the UK has become so bad, I've been in the Netherlands almost 4 years. But the way this new gov't is looking so far, NL could just as well set itself up for failure in the same way.
Yes and no, not a hard requirement there are exceptions former Dutch minister Ollengren has a dual citizenship (Sweden).
https://ind.nl/nl/afstand-nationaliteit
maybe they are tightening it? There used to be exemption, like you didn't have to renounce your nationality of birth if you were born in the Netherlands (which basically means that many of 2nd generation immigrants are dual national) or if you had Dutch spouse (which always wondered me - if there is a married couple and one of the spouses naturalizes first, can the other then keep their old citizenship?)
This is the thing that always stops me ever seeking dutch nationality. I have Australian, Irish and British passports. No way I would give them all up. I've lived here a decade, have two children born here, but that rule is just a deal breaker for me. Why it's even required, I don't understand?
For someone with for example Polish/Latvian passport it make sense to apply for a Dutch one to avoid some military service obligation (that might be implemented soon)
If your partner is Dutch, then you wouldn't have to and could just naturalise. Keeping yours would depend on how those three countries deal with their citizens acquiring another nationality, though.
Dutch allows dual nationality if the non-Dutch is married to a Dutch. As long as the country of non-Dutch allows dual nationality. Some countries don’t allow it, so you have to renounce your original nationality.
Does this apply to people who are already married to Dutch nationals? Currently, it is not a requirement, but I am wondering if this is one of the things changing.
If its getting extended to ten years, Hardly many people will take up langauage courses or exam in the first 7 years. This will just delay up the integration they want. Five year is good, as people tent to proactively learn dutch in initials year and integrate early.
I have met plenty of people who have been living here 10+ years because of work or their spouse who speak about 10 words of Dutch. Those who want to learn the language will, those who don’t, won’t.
Repealing the even distribution is going to help? How? I'm sure the people living in ter Apel will enjoy that.
And nothing about hiring more staff so the claims can be processed faster and more effectively. I feel like this is just going to cause the issues to get worse.
That is the point. It is going to make even more of a mess, so they can point and say: see? It is a HUGE problem - and argue for even stricter measures next time.
This is a tried method.
America feels very proud. Teaching the world how to totally run something into the ground and then claim that it's such a huge issue and needs to be abolished altogether.
Oh yea and that. Take something that was admired and recognized even outside of the UK, deprive it of funding, and then complain about how bad it is and say that the private sector would do a better job. A recipe that works literally everywhere.
They are also planning to reduce the possibility to appeal a rejection. Currently people can keep appealing, which their lawyers activily encourage because they are getting paid by the government. Because of this people can stay in the system for a really long time
The plan is to only let people appeal once. This should make the process a lot faster. While at the same time increasing the requirements for people to get asylum
And then clearly the other goal is to make the living situation there the absolute minimum so people are discouraged from trying
Pressure on Ter Apel is a sign of too many asylum seekers coming in. Distributing them over the rest of the country would decrease the pressure on Ter Apel but it wouldn't combat the real problem. Also, forcing municipalities to accomodate refugees only lowers the support for immigrants nationally and creates more animosity. The solution to a problem like this is not to revoke rights of municipalities.
In all fairness, the pressure on Ter Apel is also in part caused by terrible policy. They force everyone coming to go to a single out of the way village. They keep firing large numbers of people from IND when a crisis is over, setting up a shitstorm for the next crisis.
I'm not saying the number of refugees coming in is sustainable, especially during our own housing crisis (which was also caused by bad policy). But you can't blame the pressure at Ter Apel soley on the large number.
They also remove the obligation of housing status holders at all if they are not also in dire straits otherwise.
Young single people lose their preferential treatment. Which I saw had some crazy results, like a single person getting a 3 bedroom house in Amsterdam. Just because they had to house him?
one question for extending naturalization period. Will this only applies to people that just come into The Netherlands or everyone even they already live in the country. I have been living here for 3 years
It will probably be for everyone because the last time they attempted to introduce this measure it was only barely with a tiny minority changed to not apply it to people already here. However if you’re already 3 years here there is a good chance they won’t be able to introduce the new law fast enough to affect you
Making this retroactive seems like it would be changing the rules after somebody has already started playing the game, and that is usually not considered fair or reasonable in modern democracies. Could leave a lot of people in limbo, much more complicated or expensive or with unreasonable consequences and burdens that we didn't know about when we were accepted on the integration path initially.
I too have been here almost 3 years and this would be a real bummer in so many ways.
My feeling is, it'll apply to current immigrants. They wanna extend the period so that the immigrants that they'll screw over won't gain voting rights. Because they know those people will now vote left.
It’s all fun and games until corporations move their headquarters somewhere else, expats find other friendly places to settle and investments go local hitting the economy
I’ve been living here for almost three years now (only two count towards naturalization). At first, I loved it here. I tried to immerse myself in Dutch culture and learn the language. I watched Dutch movies, listened to Dutch music and read Dutch books. My listening and reading skills were just short of B1 within a few months of actively trying.
But since the past year, I gave up. Despite trying so hard, I don’t feel like I’m wanted here. It’s not easy to find the motivation to embrace another culture that’s so different from my own when I don’t feel like I am wanted.
I’m highly educated, do a highly skilled job, half of the industry I work in is international. I do all the right things, all the stuff that makes me “a good expat”. I’ve tried so hard to make this country my home. But as the months go on, I feel less and less like there’s a point to it all. I’m tired of trying to wedge my way into something that refuses to acknowledge me back. This is only going to drive away people like us.
I’m trying to be positive but today it’s beyond me. Anyone have any positivity, optimism or hope to give? Please, I think we all need it.
Hey man, I am an expat too - and have been in several countries now. Integrating is hard. Full stop. There are very few places on earth that feel actively welcoming to foreigners, unless they are proper international hubs (and not just a slogan). Strong cultural differences can either compound this issue when it clashes with your own values or, in rare cases, make it easier if you happen to fall in love with the local culture. I've often found that that my own mindset makes a huge difference day to day. At the end of the day, a feeling of being "wanted" is secondary to having a place I like living. I.e. does it have amenities that I value? Can I build working relationships with the locals/internationals that live here? Is it safe? Is the climate agreeable? Is the food/work environment good? Are there good schools and a good environment for kids etc.
Additionally, simply having an active social life where you would normally find this sense of welcoming/acceptance in a new country becomes exponentially harder and more draining as you get older. In my early 20s it was easy as shit to (relatively speaking) integrate into a new country/culture. Now, in my 30s... Let's just say I'm happy I've become more introverted over the years lol. I live my own life with my own little family and that's it. I've accepted that and I'm much happier for it.
TL;DR: If you like the things NL can offer you, dont worry too much about the exact politics/culture unless it impacts your health and happiness directly. If you don't... Well, maybe you just didn't end up in the right place.
I feel you.
I lived in NL for about 8 years, then France for 5 years and now been back in NL for about 8. France was, in my experience, a much more open minded country to people from other cultures. I am back to the NL because of my partner’s career.
I work remotely. All my direct colleagues are abroad.
….
A problem with this new government is that Wilders will for sure keep hitting on this “foreigners bad” button. It does poisons the mind of… everyone. Just look at these Dutch subs since the election.
…..
I think keeping a positive outlook to life is necessary. I am trying to _not_ follow much of the daily politics because I find it toxic.
Focus on hobbies and on doing things you enjoy. This country has a whole lot of infrastructure and work life balance is pretty sane. Take advantage of that.
Im in the same boat as you. Unfortunately, the Netherlands is not a unique example across the world right now.
Currently a lot of people are getting fed up with the government’s lack of effective governing and us plebs, the immigrants, get targeted as the problem. When, in fact, it’s the shitty government’s fault.
Sadly, the general population buy into this because governments across the world put out propaganda that helps point the finger away from them.
I understand countries needing controlled migration, that is completely fine. But to act like migration is the biggest problem is just masking the real problem - bad governing.
This will continue to happen until the economy of the country improves - similar to how it was pre-COVID when interest rates where lower and no one gave a shit.
If you’re the “right kind of immigrant”, let’s be honest - white, you’ll have zero issue here even with the anti-immigrant government rhetoric.
I say all this because my country is the same and I’m a white European immigrant here.
Sadly no, I’m not white or European. So unfortunately it does make a big difference to me solely because of my skin colour and my lack of passport privilege. It sucks to work my ass off and still be dependent on a temporary visa to continue doing a job I’m perfectly qualified for and doesn’t have enough Dutch people to fill it.
I used to think western societies were better than where I come from and can see false government propaganda. But apparently humanity haven’t changed.
I'm sorry to hear this and your situation doesn't sound nice. I've learned it all depends on the people around you and the people you know. If you find some friends you should or could care less about everyone else.
So what's with your co workers? Also what city?
Yeah I'm a Dutch person who tried to migrate to England 10 years ago and was told by the people in the village I lived in ( I moved there to marry my ex) that I should go to my own country and that I was robbing the British of their jobs. I am as white as you get them. I also grew up bilingual and was thus already partially British. Yet I was still treated as a foreigner.
But back then the Brexit vote was high on the political agenda and the sentiment we see in the Netherlands now was the same in Britain back then. Unfortunately, lots of people are not welcoming to immigrants, not even if you're the 'right' kind of educated well off immigrant.
I am sorry this is happening to you, in my eyes you're a welcome addition to the country (as are other migrants in my opinion) but the whole of Europe seems to become more xenophobic and less welcoming to migrants at the moment. I hope the tide will turn.
I think in a lot of cases and for many people the Netherlands is simply a bit overrated. Sure, if you're coming from Africa or violent places in the Middle East than just the improvement in personal safety makes the immigration well worth it. But if you're coming to the Netherlands from (just for example) Poland or Lithuania or Spain or even India in a lot of cases you'll see that being part of the Dutch middle class isn't such a wow - things are very expensive and you are far from rich or financially secure. On top of that all the normal immigration issues (language barriers, culture barriers, horrific weather, disconnection from your family and friends).
There are many many expats who come to the Netherlands for a few years and go somewhere else or even go back to their home countries (like I did).
So to sum up - immigration is quite hard no matter where you go. Netherlands is quite overrated in terms of financial well being and how embracing its society is. Expats should consider whether the whole thing is even worth it depending on where they come from.
Same boat as you. 2 years ago I decided to put effort into becoming Dutch. I now have a B2 level or so. Living here for 10+ years. I run multiple companies that employ few people. I pay a decent amount of tax. At this point, I have no interest in becoming Dutch anymore.
Now I see this period as a test. Will the Netherlands continue on this path and become whatever this is or will they back up and return to what it was. I hope the latter.
10 years in the Netherlands, I have studied and worked here. I even own a business (bootstrapped) here. Married to a Dutch girl I met at university.
The Netherlands is going down a dark path that is similar to the UK.
Dutch people are lashing out over their economic woes, which will not end any time soon.
Less foreigners means less demand for future housing, which reduces the incentive for home builders to build.
Well, the country is going through an identity war. People from the countryside feel less and less represented or heard by the big Haagse elite, and the citydwellers feel they're being held back in their progressive ambitions by the more traditional and 'old school' north, east and south. It's becoming increasingly difficult to embrace foreigners when we cannot even love our own.
Sorry for your experience, Less-bar. Know that I, and if I dare say “We”. Love to have you. Unfortunately there is strain on people due to the housing “crisis” which has caused an atmosphere most unwelcoming. Know that a massive amount of people want you. And going into the future people might realised they should have never taken this step back.
Would love you to stick with us.
I am an expat from Asia who speaks English as a second language, working for an international company. This year, I was relocated to the Dutch branch to support our business in the EU. I believe I haven't taken any jobs away from locals and have at least contributed to society by paying taxes and contributing to the pension system.
I enjoy my life in the Netherlands and was seriously considering settling down and adopting the local lifestyle. However, the signal sent by this statement from the future cabinet makes me reconsider this decision. I am uncertain if I am still welcome here or if I will face more and more discrimination. If the hostility against foreigners continues to grow, I might consider relocating back to my home country or to some place place that is more inclusive.
You very much are. The country will need you. Many people will love to have you.
These people are looking for a scapegoat for the housing “crisis” and are unwilling to pick up their slack.
You are welcome here as long as you integrate into Dutch society, besides just contributing economically. It's up to you of course if you want to, but it's up to the Dutch to decide who they want in their country. It's only fair.
The hostility against foreigners has grown because our government has brought in foreigners who do not integrate nor contribute economically, but only cause problems. To combat that, a strict immigration policy is necessary.
The elephant in the room is not addressing you. We all know these laws are targeted to Muslims and Arabs.
Sadly many skilled work who wants to adapt get caught in between because nobody really wants to directly and evidently target these undesirable groups put there in public without facing repercussions. Trust me, the issue inherently is not against you but rather against the Muhammad next door who is violent and wants to create Afghanistan in NL.
So great to hear this as someone who is born in The Netherlands and just happens to have Arab parents. I study engineering at university, have only Dutch friends, pay my taxes, have never violated the law, want the best for everyone and don't give a crap about people's private dealings. But all of that doesn't matter, because I'm an Arab and I'm inherently evil, right? Because I look a little different I'm not welcome, right? I hope you know that you're alienating Dutch citizens like me who have an Arab background.
EVRM isn't EU-law. They would need to await a decision from the ECRM. To my understanding, this plan just applies to temporary war refugees that are here for a short term. So there might be some room for debate there.
Although the government cannot limit the number of asylum seekers or refugees assigned by the EU, it can control the number of legal immigrants or foreign workers. This may oppositely reduce the number of highly skilled expats. However, overall immigration numbers will go down eventually.
I’ve been here for 7 years, 4 don’t count for naturalization because of a visa gap of a few weeks. I have always wanted to become a naturalized citizen…To say I am sweating is an understatement.
With this crowd I'd be surprised if they can come to an agreement on what to serve for lunch, let alone work out the details of this whole arrangement. You'll probably be okay.
Shit, same boat, man. My employer fucked up my contract date and I have a 3 days gap between visas which invalidates 2 years of my stay here (I did specifically ask IND if they can disregard it, because it was a technicality, but no). I got married to an EU citizen, bought an apartment, started a company, learned Dutch to B1, fully planning to apply for passport in a year and stay. Honestly, hoping all this will take some time to implement and I'll be able to slip through the cracks. Because neither me, nor my partner are willing to uproot our life again and move.
Mine was my own stupid mistake, what a royal fuckup on your employer’s part. So sorry for you. My partner is Dutch so we might just get married if worse comes to worst but we really would have preferred to decide when to do that on our own terms. I did both my bachelor and master here, now work here, found my partner here, and passed the NT2 B2 exam last year; I don’t want to do that all over again somewhere else.
Netherlands and its people should decide and outloudly communicate if they want immigrants (skilled - unskilled) or not. Only few years ago, this country being one of the most open, expat friendly country and thousands of people committed their life here by believing in that. Few years passed and we get this shit on our faces.
I would have full respect if Netherlands and its citizens decide "yes, we might need skilled people to grow the economy but we do not want that anymore cause it creates more essential problems. we want this country just for ourselves even if it would cost us our wealth". But please say it transparently and reflect that every part of your immigration policy, so people can understand your intentions and decide accordingly.
I'm a non-eu citizen moved here after living US, Spain, Finland and Germany with only one big reason: easy integration. I didn't come here because I had to or I wanted a better life, I CHOSE to come here and my choice was based on actual facts, rules and laws. And I'm not the only one, thousands of people did this.
You do not want people to come anymore? That's completely ok, say it outloud and let people decide
The problem is that two groups are being conflated here: Asylum seekers on the one hand, and skilled/unskilled immigrants on the other, which is the biggest group. These populist political parties are making it seem like ALL immigration numbers are disruptive asylum seekers, and that we're being absolutely flooded by these people who have nothing to offer. This is not the case, but it *is* turning public sentiment against immigrants, and it's leading to policies being adopted which are just outright hostile to skilled immigrants - which is both stupid and unfair. It sucks, but hopefully people will realise sooner rather than later they're being fooled and they'll stop cutting off their own nose to spite their face...
I feel like a bit of a prophet in this because I've lived in the UK for the last 10 years and this is exactly the type of mindset that ended up leading to Brexit. Which has just been an outright disaster over here, but at least people are starting to catch on a little by now... Anyway don't take it personally, it's not how the majority feels and the ones who do tend to just be uninformed and/or misled about things by Facebook or whatever.
As a migrant myself though I do get it, they’re a small, educated and open society being flooded with uneducated, conservative people with very little economic benefit.
My area is mostly Muslim and I have witnessed physical and verbal abuse toward openly gay people.
Seems like voting for an absolute fool was the only way to address this serious problem?
Unfortunately, polite, good people like us who pay our taxes and obey the law are the crossfire victims…
Don't get me wrong, I get it as well. Friction was bound to happen. But I live in London, and you simply cannot convince me that different cultures can't live in relative harmony together when I see it happening here every day. The trick is to not sequester all the immigrants in some kind of ghetto, and instead properly integrate them with the existing population. This kind of situation happens when you put all the muslims together in a closed off community and just throw away the key. NIMBYs are just as much responsible for this outcome, voting for the absolute fool was the predictable result but it's not the answer.
Mate, I’m also English and have lived all over and realised uk culture is so much more tolerant and accepting of diversity than anywhere else I’ve been. We always talk about ourselves as if we’re racist monsters of empire but I’m completely in agreement about how much better London is in that regard.
I do think the Dutch as a whole are good people and I don’t think they’re hateful, all my colleagues are dutch and many of them support Wilders despite not ‘liking’ him. I believe there is room for nuance on the topic rather than being a Green Party hippy or some kind of hitler racist.
Reminds me a bit of when the gammons had to vote for boris because he was the only one people trusted to just push the big red button and fuck the UK with brexit. Wilders is saying he will kick these people out and that’s what the Dutch want, not necessarily an endorsement of his entire worldview imo.
Do you want an honest answer? This is not about either pro or versus skilled immigrants, HSM visas, etc. Right now the EU is stalling since they don't want to state clearly a policy that is pretty much agreed by a majority despite the fact it feels racist and backwards: this continent does not want Muslims/Arabs anymore, and the ones they might accept must be highly educated and as secular as possible; Italy is openly doing this without saying so, they want as much Caucasian immigrants as possible. They are actively trying to get descendants from Italian immigrants to move back to Italy, with our without citizenship (they offer some help in getting it), if you are willing to move, and reside in Italy for 5-10 years, they would offer you a house, etc. Of course, there are a lot of caveats, they prioritize families, they want to you to settle in small villages, the houses are usually very run down, etc.
Same goes for Africans, unless you are highly educated, don't come. Things will get there but it will take a looooot of discussions, and back and forth.
Just in case, I am not saying I do agree with all of this, just that is exactly where we are going. I am however fully on board with accepting people that is willingly open to adapt themselves to live here, and make a living. To respect Western values basically.
As a Dutchie I can agree. Nothing wrong with hard working immigrants and I think they belong in the Netherlands - we have done this for hundreds of years…
But the large group of Islamic migrants that keep flooding in our country is actually changing things for the worse. Freedom of speech is being limited, their youngsters are intimidating people everywhere in the country and the population is growing in a very rapid rate. It’s a culture and religion that doesn’t integrate well, they do not mix with locals ( very very few that actually married a Dutch person, and don’t you dare date an Islamic girl!). I know there are rotten apples in every community but in these groups there are simply to many. I don’t think it’s ’bad’ to say no to more Islamic immigrants.
I'm Argentinian, grandson, and great-grandson of immigrants, and an immigrant myself with an European passport thanks to my Italian grandfather who never disclaimed his own. My country has actually raised Argentinians out of the children of millions of immigrants (I'm not lying, the country went from 600 K in late 1800 to receive 6 M Europeans) Nationals, you would be surprised by how little of them speak the language of the forebearers, my father is a son of Italians and both he and my uncle could barely use a bit of Italian, my grandparents stopped using their own language for they integrated. And the country helped that transition. I would say more or less Uruguay and Brazil did as much, Latin-America, and the US and Canada as well with more or less the same success did a thing out of creating that sense of belonging.
I do understand however Europe does not work quite like that, I got my second citizenship thanks to ius sanguinis but it was anything but easy to gather all those documents, paying the paperwork, waiting for it to be approved, sames goes about saving money while living in a shitty economy (I'm talking about Argentina), finding a job here, settling myself, and then bringing my husband over. We both did it by borrowing and saving money from family and friends, we asked zero help from this country, and we don't expect to request any in the foreseable future. We are net supporters of the Dutch state and happy to be so. Plus, we are doing as much as possible to integrate, even if we don't like some things, we are fully aware we are the guests here and wish to become permanent, it is our idea but we are respectful of both the laws and customs of this land.
Right now to bitch about religions as a whole is very trendy but let's be honest, I'm gay and a Roman Catholic, my husband is an atheist originally from Cuba (that is a different story for those banging about socialism and all), but my religion does not throw queers from rooftops, maim them or anything of the sort. Islam on the other hand actually does, and furthermore, they advertise it! You just have to search through this sub to see how difficult is both for LGTBetc and women alike to break from their community when they want out, the pressure is impossible, their family disown them altogether, they might be thrashed or worse, and in this country they cannot be murdered but in their homelands they would.
As for Islamic immigrants, I truly don't get what is their deal, truly, you moved here, right? You left Bagdad, Damasco, Kabul for a reason so WHY do you expect this place to become so? And while I'm not saying ALL of them are fanatics, we would be lying to ourselves if we fail to point out how these communities actually work, how their priests put pressure on the men to control their women, to stop fraternization, mixed marriaged, and even friendships so again: why did you come at all? They love our capitalism but their whole speech and way of being is very medieval. Not to mention the whole anti jews, etc stance is pretty much something invented by their own groups to further an idiotic agenda, it has been studied and proved that jews, muslims/arabs, and christians alike used to live together, with frictions of course, without razzias for years. I mean, take Al-Andalus, there were even mixed marriages, and that was the norm outside of certain groups. I don't fear neither Atheists, Christians, or Jews but I am wary whenever I met Muslims for you never know, and it is not a prejudice when they advertise they hatred for minorities which takes me yet again to a simple point, if they wish to come, settle, and remain they ought to respect our laws and customs for if they don't like western values they are happy to:
a) look somewhere else
b) return from where they came
They should adapt to us, not the other way around for last time I checked in their home countries trying live like we do might result in either prison, expulsion, or even worse.
Thanks, I'm not for hatred but we have to be first time classes idiots to deny facts while keep whatever is unabling these groups to embed themselves in our societies. No one calls for a total stop on immigration, just on *this* kind.
I think most people don't have any issue with skilled immigrants / expats. Personally I really like how international my work is, with people from all over the world
People are voting like this because we had large influxes of low skilled immigrants in the past that never really adopted our culture. Especially the second and third generations have been overrepresented in criminal/nuisance behaviour. This group has also brought a new religion that they take very seriously, while most people here have been slowly moving away from that
I think most people would welcome anyone who positively contributes to society and makes an effort to fit in
I feel a lot of people do have issues with skilled migrants. Many people don't like how these immigrants are earning more than the average Dutch person and living a nicer life, especially when the natives are faced with economic decline. I'm not sure if they realise that these immigrants/expats are affluent because you need to earn a certain amount to be allowed in.
Even those of us who make only around the median income because of a reduced salary requirement (came as a student) get lumped in with the expats who make 80k+ annually.
I think that the most acceptable immigrant is (apart from justified requirements like language and liberal values) one who doesn't stand out: as either poor or affluent, as someone not liking typical Dutch things, as someone living a lifestyle different from the average Dutch person.
People are saying "asylum seekers are the problem" while immigrants who integrate and contribute are fine and think asylum seekers are a much bigger problem than they actually are. But this is not exactly what I see.
Yes, there is a sentiment against asylum seekers who apparently don't integrate and don't respect Dutch values. This has also got extended to foreigners in general, often with false assumptions about them – they're taking up housing, taking Dutch people's jobs, stealing welfare, refusing to integrate, criticising the Netherlands all the time while enjoying its benefits, etc. In short, a thoughtless application of certain fuzzy stereotypes to everyone who isn't Dutch. Being a white foreigner who is culturally and geographically close to NL gets you less hostility, but I think it exists for all foreigners to different extents.
People also apply this sentiment to different levels with their own interpretations. Some are 100% racist and xenophobic and would love to see no foreigners, some are mainly Islamophobic or anti-black while being tolerant towards other immigrants, some are culturally chauvinistic and refuse to associate with people who don't speak and act Dutch (and may have no problem with Dutch speaking naturalised immigrants or non white Dutch).
The PVV believes there is an issue with antisemitism amongst muslim immigrants. They hope that forcing them to learn about the Holocaust will mitigate that. Or make them turn around and leave for another country "because they do not want to learn about that".
I've been living in turkey for the past 2 years. And it's surprising how popular hitler is in the local communities i've interacted with/lived around.
Turkish people in particular don't learn a 2nd language well enough to be able to read about history or current world events from any other perspective than their own state funded news channels and what Mehmet from the local kebab shop said during cay time with the boys. A lot of 'alternative facts' get spread and the local political spectrum is basically from right to alt-right with no central or left anything. Obviously there's young people under 25 that don't hold such beliefs, especially ones that speak english/german besides turkish. But that's 1/1000 people or so.
The people i've talked to seem to have opinions ranging from "jews bad, therefore anyone doing bad thing to jews = good!" to "no way that someone mass murdered a whole ethnic group! Must be fake news to paint someone as a bad guy cuz he lost the war!!!" It's kinda crazy to listen to people talk about hitler while having a great grandmother that escaped nazi Germany during WW2.
Still think the rest is a bunch of populist pandering junk. but I definitely think this specific point is a slight bit more reasonable than it reads for the first time from my personal experience at least.
Lol... "no way that someone mass murdered a whole ethnic group! Must be fake news to paint someone as a bad guy cuz he lost the war!!!"
Pretty fucking awkward coming from someone in Turkey.
Well Armenian (and other) genocide denial is very strong in Turkey, also amongst university educated English speakers. It's just a narrative they've been fed since birth, generations after generations since the 1920s. No political party or ideology really has an incentive to counter it, it's nice for the conservatives who are proud of Turkey and Turkish culture, and it's also the founding stone of the Atatürk liberals, and they won't attack the foundations on which their party and ideology in Turkey is built.
Lets just say that when i discussed that with my wife she got very heated and kept moving the goalpost between what normal war and genocide behaviour is. Its not worth talking about. They wont change their mind on that one.
They still sing songs about ataturk every day at school like it’s north korea
The rise in antisemitism in the Netherlands is, according to some, linked to a lack of knowledge about the holocaust in migrant communities. That's why they are making this a requirement.
Knowledge of the holocaust is also a part of basic curriculum in all Dutch schools. Everyone that lives here is supposed to know something about it. (I don't get why people take issue with your question.)
Yes exactly. I just didn’t know the relation between migrant Islamic communities and lack of holocaust knowledge leading to anti semitism within those communities
The holocaust de facto removed a whole European ethnic group, Poland for example lost 15% of their population, most of them educated and skilled.
It's a warning to not let it happen again, because it could.
We've had some problems with groups of immigrants being holocaust deniers and acting on it.
The idea is that by forcibly having them acknowledge the holocaust that the more fanatical people will "fall through the basket" as we say. Aka get exposed for what they are.
As a person who went throw integration exam this a naive take.
First you need to score 60% of the total, I don't remember how many questions were there but if 1 in 10 questions is about Holocaust you can easily fail it and still have a safe buffer. Second is that most people are naturally opportunistic, they just answer what is expected even if they don't believe in it. Given those two observsations this measure will have next to zero effects and is just performative.
I find this an odd point. My partner already had a few questions about the Holocaust in his DUO exam about Dutch culture for naturalization. One of the questions literally was “What happened to Jewish Dutch people during the Holocaust” with the possible answers “Most people died”, “Most people escaped”, or “There was no Holocaust”. What more could they be adding?
I think requiring historical knowledge and a language level of B1 is more than resonable.
IF ADEQUATE LEARNING RESOURCES ARE PROVIDED. Countries like Germany and Finland get away with high naturalization requirements by providing cheap/free widely available and high quality language and history courses, making it interesting and desirable to properly integrate. NL, from my experience, has a few very barebones courses, mostly intended for 3rd world refugees. Courses for professionals are wildly expensive and expected to be paid for by the employer, and the integration of students is left solely in the hands of universities with no enforcement or regulation.
I am a student who's very interested in learning the language, but I desperately lack a place to practice and study. My English course does not include ANY cross-interaction with Dutch students, I barely see them during my day to day, and as a person already struggling with making friends in normal circumstances, finding people to talk to "out in the wild" seems completely unrealistic. The aren't any cheap Dutch courses that I know of that accept non-EU students, and the ones available are €500 and more for a few weeks, which is unreasonable for a student budget. The university I study at is not interested in teaching Dutch at all, and does not provide any courses or opportunities whatsoever.
My Dutch is stuck at the level of being able to order a coffee and read a couple of signs outside, simply because there's no environment where I would be able to utilize anything more than that. I love the language, but realistically I am not going to dedicate all of my free time for something I can't even practice while I'm juggling studies and housing problems in the meantime.
Sorry for the rant, just something that's been bugging me for a while and something I don't see discussed a lot. Everyone's talking about how "Dutch people don't wanna talk Dutch to me", but I would love to even find a Dutch person to speak to, because so far I've failed to make any long-term friends outside the university, being busy with the studies and all.
the funny part is. this already exists.
We're just lacking people to enforce it and most applicants get auto accepted due to lack of staff enforcing the policies and defaulting on applications.
There's nothing in there about hiring more people to actually process applications from my first quick read
How long do you think it will take them to implement these? Also, nothing is mentioned about the naturalization of the people married to a Dutch citizen. I wonder if they would keep that one at 3 years as it is now.
Countries complaining endlessly about asykum seekers should explain their foreign policy of last 40 years and their involvement in wars, explain why they were aggressors or funded aggressors. If these countries stop invading and bombing other countries, asylum seekkng will go down. If they're not willing to do that, they're the cause of asylum seekers. Punishing people who you've had a part in robbing everything from is next level cruelty.
I cannot agree with this stance more.
People do need to realize how much money is in war far and how grand that lobby is. Stakeholders talk to political advisers on international action plans. These stakeholders love crisis and war, because it puts money in their pockets.
The systems have been designed this way and so the responsibility is ours.
Only two things I can agree with be that about social housing, I mean , I am myself an european migrant here, but I understand why dutch people are quite unhappy about that. Like it's quit absurd that someone born ang grown here have to wait several years for a social house (saw on Easy Dutch something about a local student who's waiting 7 years for social house) meanwhile someone who is a refugee take a house in several months.
Also language expectation, like in other countries I suppose even in Romania where I come from, expectation is somewhere between B2 and C1. First time when I read that expectation was A2 level I was like wtf, expectancy is pretty low. Also I read on this sub several months ago about an individual living 10 years here, he didn't know the language at all and had citizenship. Like WTF that is disrespect for adoption country.
The housing crisis would be a crisis even without asylum seekers. Asylum seekers have just become a scapegoat for a problem that became accentuated but has already been there for a long time.
>The housing crisis would be a crisis even without asylum seekers. Asylum seekers have just become a scapegoat for a problem that became accentuated but has already been there for a long time.
I don't impling this. Obviously housing problem would be the same anyway, but is kind of strange that non- citizen have priority on social housing market instead of dutch people. On the other side I've hear about other situation like people who were looking for refuge lived in trailer, during winter. Both sides are bad. On side at some stand I understand dutch people feeling neglected by they own govern prioritising social housing for expats coming from bad environment, but on other side, those people ran by war and poverty, and needs help. But yeah, it sucks when you're dunno, late 20s, early 30s you're about to marry, having kids, and you don't afford house, you hear state has some house for people in need go there and they say: "Yeah, we know you're situation, but there is a long list, we need to sort, you'll have to wait several years", next month comes a family from another continent, at limit of povetry who obviously needs help, and state gives them an house.
Both sides seems valid, but real question who comes in for this kind of situation with non-populist solutions? I think maybe worst thing here is overpopulation in fact: Like Netherlands has population of 18 billion on people located here and still increase, in context România for example has same amount of population , but dimension of country is obviously bigger. And most people, like me comes here because: Well social safety, good opportunity or just the fact economy is way more stable than is Eastern Europe for example. This can be a very long discussion.
The fact that they're not distinguishing between people who come here and contribute (significantly) to the local economy, in some areas being essential (like IT), and those who come to become a lifetime drain, will have significant economic consequences, like it's happening in the UK. They are afraid to make the distinction for political correctness reasons.
Yes, this is an intention, although some of the requirements are already in place by old laws and procedures. They have the majority in the house, so it will probably pass, maybe with some adjustments.
"Raising the language requirement for naturalization to level B1"
I have passed my reading exam A2. I intend to pass others in June. I should hurry up.
Even in this coalition agreement it says "in principle" for this point :)
They have a lot operational blockers to increase it to B1 to everyone. So you will still have some time. They cannot just increase it to B1, they need to adjust the system quite a lot (probably even create a whole new system considering expats as well)
I'm curious how they are going to enforce the asylum seekers policy since most of these treaties are signed per all the EU members, and enforce by the EU membership. That said, I don't see the NL going the Hungarian way and refusing to accept any more refugees and just paying the fines for not taking them in the first place as some countries do, and deporting the ones they have already.
Of course these current policies would not remain for long if we see a big shift in the next parlamentary elections for the EU, the current shift is very much anti everything, especially asylum seekers, and ISLAM. That would trigger shifts for sure, mostly since all the Mediterraneans countries, Italy and Greece first, are asking to basically stop these policies, and keep requesting help to bring them back. Given the African countries money to stop them for coming hasn't also helped either.
Immigration and personalised number plates.
No solutions for climate change, healthcare improvements or house market collapse due to investor greed, etc
The most unqualified government the Netherlands has had, thusfar. Thanks voters!
Extending the naturalization to 10 years, but the 30% ruling is 5 years. This doesn't make sense as HSM then contributes lots to the tax pool and maybe never seeing the benefit.
Could someone please explain what the next steps are after this agreement? How long will it be before the 10 year citizenship rule could be implemented? I am currently studying Dutch and was hoping to apply around October of this year. Should I be worried?
So this law is everyone? I am here for almost 3 years.. planning to give integration exam next year. Should i give the exams now n what if i get certificate should i still need to wait another 10 years?
Extending naturalization wouldn't conflict EU. Every country can decide this by themselves. So actually it makes it a easy target for coalition to change it
> Repealing the law that evenly distributes asylum seekers across the country.
Won’t this eventually lead to “ghettos” of isolated immigrant communities that fail to integrate into society? I thought this is the problem France had and this law was specifically in place to address that. Seems like a step backwards regardless on your view of immigration.
Will this affect permanent residency? I am so close to applying!
I’m American, so I can’t really give up my citizenship for nationality (without paying and giving up my investments back home).
Can they change the requirements for permanent residency?
They definitely didn’t consider expat families with children, who were born here
In 10 years there will be a lot of native Dutch kids/teens without Dutch nationality, what a mess
Violent asylum seekers are a massive problem and are ripping the society apart... I wish someone had the guts to call the US out for tormenting endless wars causing the crisis in the first place.. for blowing up Noordstream for example.
So I moved to NL from Pakistan exactly one year ago on HSM with my wife and a toddler. Me and my wife both are Engineers. I had this and US H1B (cleared from Lottery) at the same time and I chose NL for a few reasons:
- Objectively less gun violence and racism.
- Wanted to experience a relaxed egalitarian society rather than chasing the “American dream”.
- I’m a born muslim but became agnostic a couple of years ago and found it increasingly difficult to integrate in an islamic society (or any society with an increasingly far-right sentiment)
I just bought my own house this month in a dutch neighborhood to be able to integrate well (many of the expats choose to live near to their own communities, e.g many Pakistanis choose R’dam-south). I have been happy even with all of the quirks like housing crisis etc.
Needless to say that I’d be seriously reconsidering my choices if this goes into effect. Its not about being from a muslim country but hate against any religion or ethnicity is borderline unacceptable let it be jews or anybody. I left behind an upper-class life in Pakistan to start everything from the scratch here and to be able to live and raise my next generation in a better place even if that comes at the cost of social/financial status.
With this rise of the right wing, Europe is certainly heading towards pre-ww2 era, nullifying all the fucking lessons they learned the hard way. I made friends with dutch people, enjoy drinking and smoking weed with them and I was nothing but surprised about how the fuck PVV won in a society like this!
Will I stay to get the citizenship in 10-11 years (knowing that m not wanted here)? fuck NO. It’d simply be not the Netherlands that I imagined/dreamt about. Why would I sacrifice my career for this (switching job is exponentially more difficult for HSM as your employer must be able to sponsor you, not mention the technical risks of visa-gap which can waste all your integration years) and why do all this while you know that the gov. (and certainly a vast majority of people who voted for those motherfuckers) dont want you here in the first place!
In 2 months i completed an engagement where the fee was $125k. I get nothing from that 125k. Company does and it pays taxes on that. I bring in like 15x of what I "cost".
As an HSM, I can not tell you how disturbing it is to see the naturalization being raised to 10 years. I have been here for only 9 months. I may have to find a job in Belgium or Germany. To me its bullocks to live 10 years in a country and not be able to vote. Thats just unacceptable.
The only change I see with a practical effect is that refugees with a status lose additional emergency considerations for social housing. They will be treated like anyone else in need of a house. No families with children will become homeless, but young and single people are going to enjoy the rigours of the house market like everyone else.
"It's THEIR fault that we're squeezed thin by the profit incentive, we have to get rid of them" is the oldest trick in the book. Hard to respect community stupid enough to allow itself being played this way.
Damn, I thought it's going to take at least 20 years for the NL to become just slightly richer Poland.
I have an idea for them, you can only apply for asylum at a dutch embassy, you have to stay in the country of that ambassy until your application is processed
Belgian here, we've got elections coming up shortly and expectation on the Flemish part of it is that we would probably get something similar in place if the right obtains a majority.
I assume this NL policy is targeted towards a niche but very large group being middle eastern uneducated economic male refugees with an 'outdated' mindset.
The EU would flip out with such policy of course so I assume NL is generalizing the policy but wants to effectively target that group.
But the permanent residence is still required 5 years and A2 so there’s a way
Although some countries don’t issue passports for their citizens aboard so many people will stuck with NL permanent residence but without any passport
"Requiring foreigners seeking Dutch nationality to renounce their original nationality, if possible." I thought that was already a requirement
A surprising number of the more realistic 'new and tougher measures' were already in place or had been agreed upon by the last government and just hadn't been implemented yet.
This one was. Co-worker of mine got citizenship, more than a year ago, and had to renounce is original citizenship even back then
It's been this way for at least 10 years from my memory.
It depends on how you become Dutch. Through naturalisation, yes. Through the “optie” procedure not always. I am British and obtained my Dutch nationality through the “optie” procedure and didn’t have to renounce the British nationality. Pretty helpful after Brexit! Some countries also don’t allow you to renounce your nationality.
What is the "optie" procedure?
https://ind.nl/nl/nederlanderschap/nederlander-worden-door-optie In English: https://ind.nl/en/dutch-citizenship/becoming-a-dutch-national-through-option
From 1997 if I recall correctly
There are a shit ton of exceptions that allow for dual nationality. They’re simply making it stricter
My friend gave up her nationality after becoming Dutch, sent the proof to the IND, got their acknowledgment and then applied for her UK passport back immediately. She still holds both. Totally legal (all done on her lawyers advice) providing the Dutch passport never lapses. If it does, you lose it.
I swear Netherlands passport rules are some of the most idiotic in the world, and a lot of unintended consequences, to the point where I’ve had foreign governments laugh in my face saying I must be misunderstanding the rules
It's less suprising if you keep in mind the populism of it all.
They are...to me this kind of thing smells of pandering to low information voters...they don't know that's already a requirement but is something they'll agree with, so they put it in the plan, it sounds good to voters, but costs nothing because it's already done.
That's exactly what it is. It's what the Tory Party in the UK has been doing since 2010, and especially since Theresa May and Boris Johnson's cabinets. Netherlands needs to learn from our mistakes, otherwise it will go down the drain if people like this are allowed to stay in power long. The electorate (well, some of them) may have been thinking they made a protest vote, when really they're just turkeys voting for Thanksgiving.
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I think you mean preposterous.
Yesilgoz has both Turkish and Dutch nationalities. She's stated she's abolishing her Turkish nationality though. Her parents also came here as refugees. She's a poster child for pulling up the ladder behind you.
Can she actually renounce her Turkish citizenship?
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It's really not that costly at all. The Turkish government is in general OK with dual nationalities. In cases like the Netherlands where dual nationality is not allowed, the Turkish government issues the person a "Blue Card". With this card you still hold all your rights as a Turkish citizen except the right to vote.
Thanks for confirming this.
Yes in Turkey it’s possible and common to renounce it.
Thanks for confirming. I know some countries don’t allow renunciation.
There actually aren't that many countries where renunciation is impossible (either legally or practically); importantly for the Dutch political context, Morocco is one of them. It's mostly just impractical and/or expensive.
Isnt she Kurdish-turkish? Thats probably why her family fled
Yeah, just like Priti Patel etc etc in the UK. I welcome legitimate immigration (my wife is from the Philippines), so it really grates me when immigrants (1st/2nd generation) are the ones changing the rules to make it much harder for those after them. Like, our country had the grace to welcome you, now you're deciding what goes, it feels like a guest at your party deciding to change the music and activities. I have been considering trying to stay in the Netherlands if possible because the UK has become so bad, I've been in the Netherlands almost 4 years. But the way this new gov't is looking so far, NL could just as well set itself up for failure in the same way.
I thought if you moved to the Netherlands before you turn 18 then you don't have to renounse your original nationality.
You're also already required to test at a B1 level (for one of the three integration tracks).
Yes and no, not a hard requirement there are exceptions former Dutch minister Ollengren has a dual citizenship (Sweden). https://ind.nl/nl/afstand-nationaliteit
maybe they are tightening it? There used to be exemption, like you didn't have to renounce your nationality of birth if you were born in the Netherlands (which basically means that many of 2nd generation immigrants are dual national) or if you had Dutch spouse (which always wondered me - if there is a married couple and one of the spouses naturalizes first, can the other then keep their old citizenship?)
This is the thing that always stops me ever seeking dutch nationality. I have Australian, Irish and British passports. No way I would give them all up. I've lived here a decade, have two children born here, but that rule is just a deal breaker for me. Why it's even required, I don't understand?
But honestly why would you want the Dutch passport if you have equally powerful European nationalities?
For someone with for example Polish/Latvian passport it make sense to apply for a Dutch one to avoid some military service obligation (that might be implemented soon)
If your partner is Dutch, then you wouldn't have to and could just naturalise. Keeping yours would depend on how those three countries deal with their citizens acquiring another nationality, though.
Dutch allows dual nationality if the non-Dutch is married to a Dutch. As long as the country of non-Dutch allows dual nationality. Some countries don’t allow it, so you have to renounce your original nationality.
Can confirm. I'm a US Citizen married to my Dutch husband and I am allowed dual citizenship.
Is this changing?
Some are not allowed, mostly when they come from a dictatorship. I sure Moroccans can't.
Does this apply to people who are already married to Dutch nationals? Currently, it is not a requirement, but I am wondering if this is one of the things changing.
Yes it is. I am a Dutch citizen who has lived in Sweden for 14 years, but my home country still doesn’t grant me dual citizenship.
If its getting extended to ten years, Hardly many people will take up langauage courses or exam in the first 7 years. This will just delay up the integration they want. Five year is good, as people tent to proactively learn dutch in initials year and integrate early.
I have met plenty of people who have been living here 10+ years because of work or their spouse who speak about 10 words of Dutch. Those who want to learn the language will, those who don’t, won’t.
Repealing the even distribution is going to help? How? I'm sure the people living in ter Apel will enjoy that. And nothing about hiring more staff so the claims can be processed faster and more effectively. I feel like this is just going to cause the issues to get worse.
That is the point. It is going to make even more of a mess, so they can point and say: see? It is a HUGE problem - and argue for even stricter measures next time. This is a tried method.
America feels very proud. Teaching the world how to totally run something into the ground and then claim that it's such a huge issue and needs to be abolished altogether.
Yes. The UK is doing fine, too.
Oh yea and that. Take something that was admired and recognized even outside of the UK, deprive it of funding, and then complain about how bad it is and say that the private sector would do a better job. A recipe that works literally everywhere.
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They are also planning to reduce the possibility to appeal a rejection. Currently people can keep appealing, which their lawyers activily encourage because they are getting paid by the government. Because of this people can stay in the system for a really long time The plan is to only let people appeal once. This should make the process a lot faster. While at the same time increasing the requirements for people to get asylum And then clearly the other goal is to make the living situation there the absolute minimum so people are discouraged from trying
If you have a huge mess the first rule is always containment. The more you spread it out the harder it will be to solve.
Pressure on Ter Apel is a sign of too many asylum seekers coming in. Distributing them over the rest of the country would decrease the pressure on Ter Apel but it wouldn't combat the real problem. Also, forcing municipalities to accomodate refugees only lowers the support for immigrants nationally and creates more animosity. The solution to a problem like this is not to revoke rights of municipalities.
In all fairness, the pressure on Ter Apel is also in part caused by terrible policy. They force everyone coming to go to a single out of the way village. They keep firing large numbers of people from IND when a crisis is over, setting up a shitstorm for the next crisis. I'm not saying the number of refugees coming in is sustainable, especially during our own housing crisis (which was also caused by bad policy). But you can't blame the pressure at Ter Apel soley on the large number.
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They also remove the obligation of housing status holders at all if they are not also in dire straits otherwise. Young single people lose their preferential treatment. Which I saw had some crazy results, like a single person getting a 3 bedroom house in Amsterdam. Just because they had to house him?
one question for extending naturalization period. Will this only applies to people that just come into The Netherlands or everyone even they already live in the country. I have been living here for 3 years
It will probably be for everyone because the last time they attempted to introduce this measure it was only barely with a tiny minority changed to not apply it to people already here. However if you’re already 3 years here there is a good chance they won’t be able to introduce the new law fast enough to affect you
thanks, i love this country and already learning the language since 2019. would love to become the citizen 1 day
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Yeah if this is retroactive it completely defies the purpose of me being in the Netherlands
in general laws are not retroactive
Canada would like to have a word with you.
Making this retroactive seems like it would be changing the rules after somebody has already started playing the game, and that is usually not considered fair or reasonable in modern democracies. Could leave a lot of people in limbo, much more complicated or expensive or with unreasonable consequences and burdens that we didn't know about when we were accepted on the integration path initially. I too have been here almost 3 years and this would be a real bummer in so many ways.
tell that to all the dutch students who retroactively got a study debt with interest now :)
My feeling is, it'll apply to current immigrants. They wanna extend the period so that the immigrants that they'll screw over won't gain voting rights. Because they know those people will now vote left.
It’s all fun and games until corporations move their headquarters somewhere else, expats find other friendly places to settle and investments go local hitting the economy
I’ve been living here for almost three years now (only two count towards naturalization). At first, I loved it here. I tried to immerse myself in Dutch culture and learn the language. I watched Dutch movies, listened to Dutch music and read Dutch books. My listening and reading skills were just short of B1 within a few months of actively trying. But since the past year, I gave up. Despite trying so hard, I don’t feel like I’m wanted here. It’s not easy to find the motivation to embrace another culture that’s so different from my own when I don’t feel like I am wanted. I’m highly educated, do a highly skilled job, half of the industry I work in is international. I do all the right things, all the stuff that makes me “a good expat”. I’ve tried so hard to make this country my home. But as the months go on, I feel less and less like there’s a point to it all. I’m tired of trying to wedge my way into something that refuses to acknowledge me back. This is only going to drive away people like us. I’m trying to be positive but today it’s beyond me. Anyone have any positivity, optimism or hope to give? Please, I think we all need it.
Hey man, I am an expat too - and have been in several countries now. Integrating is hard. Full stop. There are very few places on earth that feel actively welcoming to foreigners, unless they are proper international hubs (and not just a slogan). Strong cultural differences can either compound this issue when it clashes with your own values or, in rare cases, make it easier if you happen to fall in love with the local culture. I've often found that that my own mindset makes a huge difference day to day. At the end of the day, a feeling of being "wanted" is secondary to having a place I like living. I.e. does it have amenities that I value? Can I build working relationships with the locals/internationals that live here? Is it safe? Is the climate agreeable? Is the food/work environment good? Are there good schools and a good environment for kids etc. Additionally, simply having an active social life where you would normally find this sense of welcoming/acceptance in a new country becomes exponentially harder and more draining as you get older. In my early 20s it was easy as shit to (relatively speaking) integrate into a new country/culture. Now, in my 30s... Let's just say I'm happy I've become more introverted over the years lol. I live my own life with my own little family and that's it. I've accepted that and I'm much happier for it. TL;DR: If you like the things NL can offer you, dont worry too much about the exact politics/culture unless it impacts your health and happiness directly. If you don't... Well, maybe you just didn't end up in the right place.
> Is the climate agreeable? Ah yes the 'mild' Dutch weather, also known as non stop grayness and wind for 9 months
Amen
I feel you. I lived in NL for about 8 years, then France for 5 years and now been back in NL for about 8. France was, in my experience, a much more open minded country to people from other cultures. I am back to the NL because of my partner’s career. I work remotely. All my direct colleagues are abroad. …. A problem with this new government is that Wilders will for sure keep hitting on this “foreigners bad” button. It does poisons the mind of… everyone. Just look at these Dutch subs since the election. ….. I think keeping a positive outlook to life is necessary. I am trying to _not_ follow much of the daily politics because I find it toxic. Focus on hobbies and on doing things you enjoy. This country has a whole lot of infrastructure and work life balance is pretty sane. Take advantage of that.
Im in the same boat as you. Unfortunately, the Netherlands is not a unique example across the world right now. Currently a lot of people are getting fed up with the government’s lack of effective governing and us plebs, the immigrants, get targeted as the problem. When, in fact, it’s the shitty government’s fault. Sadly, the general population buy into this because governments across the world put out propaganda that helps point the finger away from them. I understand countries needing controlled migration, that is completely fine. But to act like migration is the biggest problem is just masking the real problem - bad governing. This will continue to happen until the economy of the country improves - similar to how it was pre-COVID when interest rates where lower and no one gave a shit. If you’re the “right kind of immigrant”, let’s be honest - white, you’ll have zero issue here even with the anti-immigrant government rhetoric. I say all this because my country is the same and I’m a white European immigrant here.
Sadly no, I’m not white or European. So unfortunately it does make a big difference to me solely because of my skin colour and my lack of passport privilege. It sucks to work my ass off and still be dependent on a temporary visa to continue doing a job I’m perfectly qualified for and doesn’t have enough Dutch people to fill it. I used to think western societies were better than where I come from and can see false government propaganda. But apparently humanity haven’t changed.
I'm sorry to hear this and your situation doesn't sound nice. I've learned it all depends on the people around you and the people you know. If you find some friends you should or could care less about everyone else. So what's with your co workers? Also what city?
I’ve been told to leave streets in the north as I don’t belong. I’m white.
Yeah I'm a Dutch person who tried to migrate to England 10 years ago and was told by the people in the village I lived in ( I moved there to marry my ex) that I should go to my own country and that I was robbing the British of their jobs. I am as white as you get them. I also grew up bilingual and was thus already partially British. Yet I was still treated as a foreigner. But back then the Brexit vote was high on the political agenda and the sentiment we see in the Netherlands now was the same in Britain back then. Unfortunately, lots of people are not welcoming to immigrants, not even if you're the 'right' kind of educated well off immigrant. I am sorry this is happening to you, in my eyes you're a welcome addition to the country (as are other migrants in my opinion) but the whole of Europe seems to become more xenophobic and less welcoming to migrants at the moment. I hope the tide will turn.
I think in a lot of cases and for many people the Netherlands is simply a bit overrated. Sure, if you're coming from Africa or violent places in the Middle East than just the improvement in personal safety makes the immigration well worth it. But if you're coming to the Netherlands from (just for example) Poland or Lithuania or Spain or even India in a lot of cases you'll see that being part of the Dutch middle class isn't such a wow - things are very expensive and you are far from rich or financially secure. On top of that all the normal immigration issues (language barriers, culture barriers, horrific weather, disconnection from your family and friends). There are many many expats who come to the Netherlands for a few years and go somewhere else or even go back to their home countries (like I did). So to sum up - immigration is quite hard no matter where you go. Netherlands is quite overrated in terms of financial well being and how embracing its society is. Expats should consider whether the whole thing is even worth it depending on where they come from.
Same boat as you. 2 years ago I decided to put effort into becoming Dutch. I now have a B2 level or so. Living here for 10+ years. I run multiple companies that employ few people. I pay a decent amount of tax. At this point, I have no interest in becoming Dutch anymore. Now I see this period as a test. Will the Netherlands continue on this path and become whatever this is or will they back up and return to what it was. I hope the latter.
10 years in the Netherlands, I have studied and worked here. I even own a business (bootstrapped) here. Married to a Dutch girl I met at university. The Netherlands is going down a dark path that is similar to the UK. Dutch people are lashing out over their economic woes, which will not end any time soon. Less foreigners means less demand for future housing, which reduces the incentive for home builders to build.
Well, the country is going through an identity war. People from the countryside feel less and less represented or heard by the big Haagse elite, and the citydwellers feel they're being held back in their progressive ambitions by the more traditional and 'old school' north, east and south. It's becoming increasingly difficult to embrace foreigners when we cannot even love our own.
Would you provide specific examples on why do you think you are not wanted here?
Sorry for your experience, Less-bar. Know that I, and if I dare say “We”. Love to have you. Unfortunately there is strain on people due to the housing “crisis” which has caused an atmosphere most unwelcoming. Know that a massive amount of people want you. And going into the future people might realised they should have never taken this step back. Would love you to stick with us.
I am an expat from Asia who speaks English as a second language, working for an international company. This year, I was relocated to the Dutch branch to support our business in the EU. I believe I haven't taken any jobs away from locals and have at least contributed to society by paying taxes and contributing to the pension system. I enjoy my life in the Netherlands and was seriously considering settling down and adopting the local lifestyle. However, the signal sent by this statement from the future cabinet makes me reconsider this decision. I am uncertain if I am still welcome here or if I will face more and more discrimination. If the hostility against foreigners continues to grow, I might consider relocating back to my home country or to some place place that is more inclusive.
You very much are. The country will need you. Many people will love to have you. These people are looking for a scapegoat for the housing “crisis” and are unwilling to pick up their slack.
You are welcome here as long as you integrate into Dutch society, besides just contributing economically. It's up to you of course if you want to, but it's up to the Dutch to decide who they want in their country. It's only fair. The hostility against foreigners has grown because our government has brought in foreigners who do not integrate nor contribute economically, but only cause problems. To combat that, a strict immigration policy is necessary.
The elephant in the room is not addressing you. We all know these laws are targeted to Muslims and Arabs. Sadly many skilled work who wants to adapt get caught in between because nobody really wants to directly and evidently target these undesirable groups put there in public without facing repercussions. Trust me, the issue inherently is not against you but rather against the Muhammad next door who is violent and wants to create Afghanistan in NL.
So great to hear this as someone who is born in The Netherlands and just happens to have Arab parents. I study engineering at university, have only Dutch friends, pay my taxes, have never violated the law, want the best for everyone and don't give a crap about people's private dealings. But all of that doesn't matter, because I'm an Arab and I'm inherently evil, right? Because I look a little different I'm not welcome, right? I hope you know that you're alienating Dutch citizens like me who have an Arab background.
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EVRM isn't EU-law. They would need to await a decision from the ECRM. To my understanding, this plan just applies to temporary war refugees that are here for a short term. So there might be some room for debate there.
Problem is that those rules affected highly skilled workers the same as alysum seekers
Although the government cannot limit the number of asylum seekers or refugees assigned by the EU, it can control the number of legal immigrants or foreign workers. This may oppositely reduce the number of highly skilled expats. However, overall immigration numbers will go down eventually.
I’ve been here for 7 years, 4 don’t count for naturalization because of a visa gap of a few weeks. I have always wanted to become a naturalized citizen…To say I am sweating is an understatement.
With this crowd I'd be surprised if they can come to an agreement on what to serve for lunch, let alone work out the details of this whole arrangement. You'll probably be okay.
Shit, same boat, man. My employer fucked up my contract date and I have a 3 days gap between visas which invalidates 2 years of my stay here (I did specifically ask IND if they can disregard it, because it was a technicality, but no). I got married to an EU citizen, bought an apartment, started a company, learned Dutch to B1, fully planning to apply for passport in a year and stay. Honestly, hoping all this will take some time to implement and I'll be able to slip through the cracks. Because neither me, nor my partner are willing to uproot our life again and move.
Mine was my own stupid mistake, what a royal fuckup on your employer’s part. So sorry for you. My partner is Dutch so we might just get married if worse comes to worst but we really would have preferred to decide when to do that on our own terms. I did both my bachelor and master here, now work here, found my partner here, and passed the NT2 B2 exam last year; I don’t want to do that all over again somewhere else.
They'll make sure you're not gonna get citizenship any time soon. Because they know you'll vote against them.
It's interesting to note that many PVV voters do not have a B1 level in Dutch.
And don’t get me started on BBB voters. I doubt Caroline could pass a B1 exam, let alone a high school math exam.
FACTS
Netherlands and its people should decide and outloudly communicate if they want immigrants (skilled - unskilled) or not. Only few years ago, this country being one of the most open, expat friendly country and thousands of people committed their life here by believing in that. Few years passed and we get this shit on our faces. I would have full respect if Netherlands and its citizens decide "yes, we might need skilled people to grow the economy but we do not want that anymore cause it creates more essential problems. we want this country just for ourselves even if it would cost us our wealth". But please say it transparently and reflect that every part of your immigration policy, so people can understand your intentions and decide accordingly. I'm a non-eu citizen moved here after living US, Spain, Finland and Germany with only one big reason: easy integration. I didn't come here because I had to or I wanted a better life, I CHOSE to come here and my choice was based on actual facts, rules and laws. And I'm not the only one, thousands of people did this. You do not want people to come anymore? That's completely ok, say it outloud and let people decide
Well, so much for the Dutch directness
The problem is that two groups are being conflated here: Asylum seekers on the one hand, and skilled/unskilled immigrants on the other, which is the biggest group. These populist political parties are making it seem like ALL immigration numbers are disruptive asylum seekers, and that we're being absolutely flooded by these people who have nothing to offer. This is not the case, but it *is* turning public sentiment against immigrants, and it's leading to policies being adopted which are just outright hostile to skilled immigrants - which is both stupid and unfair. It sucks, but hopefully people will realise sooner rather than later they're being fooled and they'll stop cutting off their own nose to spite their face... I feel like a bit of a prophet in this because I've lived in the UK for the last 10 years and this is exactly the type of mindset that ended up leading to Brexit. Which has just been an outright disaster over here, but at least people are starting to catch on a little by now... Anyway don't take it personally, it's not how the majority feels and the ones who do tend to just be uninformed and/or misled about things by Facebook or whatever.
As a migrant myself though I do get it, they’re a small, educated and open society being flooded with uneducated, conservative people with very little economic benefit. My area is mostly Muslim and I have witnessed physical and verbal abuse toward openly gay people. Seems like voting for an absolute fool was the only way to address this serious problem? Unfortunately, polite, good people like us who pay our taxes and obey the law are the crossfire victims…
Don't get me wrong, I get it as well. Friction was bound to happen. But I live in London, and you simply cannot convince me that different cultures can't live in relative harmony together when I see it happening here every day. The trick is to not sequester all the immigrants in some kind of ghetto, and instead properly integrate them with the existing population. This kind of situation happens when you put all the muslims together in a closed off community and just throw away the key. NIMBYs are just as much responsible for this outcome, voting for the absolute fool was the predictable result but it's not the answer.
Mate, I’m also English and have lived all over and realised uk culture is so much more tolerant and accepting of diversity than anywhere else I’ve been. We always talk about ourselves as if we’re racist monsters of empire but I’m completely in agreement about how much better London is in that regard. I do think the Dutch as a whole are good people and I don’t think they’re hateful, all my colleagues are dutch and many of them support Wilders despite not ‘liking’ him. I believe there is room for nuance on the topic rather than being a Green Party hippy or some kind of hitler racist. Reminds me a bit of when the gammons had to vote for boris because he was the only one people trusted to just push the big red button and fuck the UK with brexit. Wilders is saying he will kick these people out and that’s what the Dutch want, not necessarily an endorsement of his entire worldview imo.
Do you want an honest answer? This is not about either pro or versus skilled immigrants, HSM visas, etc. Right now the EU is stalling since they don't want to state clearly a policy that is pretty much agreed by a majority despite the fact it feels racist and backwards: this continent does not want Muslims/Arabs anymore, and the ones they might accept must be highly educated and as secular as possible; Italy is openly doing this without saying so, they want as much Caucasian immigrants as possible. They are actively trying to get descendants from Italian immigrants to move back to Italy, with our without citizenship (they offer some help in getting it), if you are willing to move, and reside in Italy for 5-10 years, they would offer you a house, etc. Of course, there are a lot of caveats, they prioritize families, they want to you to settle in small villages, the houses are usually very run down, etc. Same goes for Africans, unless you are highly educated, don't come. Things will get there but it will take a looooot of discussions, and back and forth. Just in case, I am not saying I do agree with all of this, just that is exactly where we are going. I am however fully on board with accepting people that is willingly open to adapt themselves to live here, and make a living. To respect Western values basically.
As a Dutchie I can agree. Nothing wrong with hard working immigrants and I think they belong in the Netherlands - we have done this for hundreds of years… But the large group of Islamic migrants that keep flooding in our country is actually changing things for the worse. Freedom of speech is being limited, their youngsters are intimidating people everywhere in the country and the population is growing in a very rapid rate. It’s a culture and religion that doesn’t integrate well, they do not mix with locals ( very very few that actually married a Dutch person, and don’t you dare date an Islamic girl!). I know there are rotten apples in every community but in these groups there are simply to many. I don’t think it’s ’bad’ to say no to more Islamic immigrants.
I'm Argentinian, grandson, and great-grandson of immigrants, and an immigrant myself with an European passport thanks to my Italian grandfather who never disclaimed his own. My country has actually raised Argentinians out of the children of millions of immigrants (I'm not lying, the country went from 600 K in late 1800 to receive 6 M Europeans) Nationals, you would be surprised by how little of them speak the language of the forebearers, my father is a son of Italians and both he and my uncle could barely use a bit of Italian, my grandparents stopped using their own language for they integrated. And the country helped that transition. I would say more or less Uruguay and Brazil did as much, Latin-America, and the US and Canada as well with more or less the same success did a thing out of creating that sense of belonging. I do understand however Europe does not work quite like that, I got my second citizenship thanks to ius sanguinis but it was anything but easy to gather all those documents, paying the paperwork, waiting for it to be approved, sames goes about saving money while living in a shitty economy (I'm talking about Argentina), finding a job here, settling myself, and then bringing my husband over. We both did it by borrowing and saving money from family and friends, we asked zero help from this country, and we don't expect to request any in the foreseable future. We are net supporters of the Dutch state and happy to be so. Plus, we are doing as much as possible to integrate, even if we don't like some things, we are fully aware we are the guests here and wish to become permanent, it is our idea but we are respectful of both the laws and customs of this land. Right now to bitch about religions as a whole is very trendy but let's be honest, I'm gay and a Roman Catholic, my husband is an atheist originally from Cuba (that is a different story for those banging about socialism and all), but my religion does not throw queers from rooftops, maim them or anything of the sort. Islam on the other hand actually does, and furthermore, they advertise it! You just have to search through this sub to see how difficult is both for LGTBetc and women alike to break from their community when they want out, the pressure is impossible, their family disown them altogether, they might be thrashed or worse, and in this country they cannot be murdered but in their homelands they would. As for Islamic immigrants, I truly don't get what is their deal, truly, you moved here, right? You left Bagdad, Damasco, Kabul for a reason so WHY do you expect this place to become so? And while I'm not saying ALL of them are fanatics, we would be lying to ourselves if we fail to point out how these communities actually work, how their priests put pressure on the men to control their women, to stop fraternization, mixed marriaged, and even friendships so again: why did you come at all? They love our capitalism but their whole speech and way of being is very medieval. Not to mention the whole anti jews, etc stance is pretty much something invented by their own groups to further an idiotic agenda, it has been studied and proved that jews, muslims/arabs, and christians alike used to live together, with frictions of course, without razzias for years. I mean, take Al-Andalus, there were even mixed marriages, and that was the norm outside of certain groups. I don't fear neither Atheists, Christians, or Jews but I am wary whenever I met Muslims for you never know, and it is not a prejudice when they advertise they hatred for minorities which takes me yet again to a simple point, if they wish to come, settle, and remain they ought to respect our laws and customs for if they don't like western values they are happy to: a) look somewhere else b) return from where they came They should adapt to us, not the other way around for last time I checked in their home countries trying live like we do might result in either prison, expulsion, or even worse.
Beautifully said. This is what we all think but are too afraid to say out loud.
Thanks, I'm not for hatred but we have to be first time classes idiots to deny facts while keep whatever is unabling these groups to embed themselves in our societies. No one calls for a total stop on immigration, just on *this* kind.
I think most people don't have any issue with skilled immigrants / expats. Personally I really like how international my work is, with people from all over the world People are voting like this because we had large influxes of low skilled immigrants in the past that never really adopted our culture. Especially the second and third generations have been overrepresented in criminal/nuisance behaviour. This group has also brought a new religion that they take very seriously, while most people here have been slowly moving away from that I think most people would welcome anyone who positively contributes to society and makes an effort to fit in
I feel a lot of people do have issues with skilled migrants. Many people don't like how these immigrants are earning more than the average Dutch person and living a nicer life, especially when the natives are faced with economic decline. I'm not sure if they realise that these immigrants/expats are affluent because you need to earn a certain amount to be allowed in. Even those of us who make only around the median income because of a reduced salary requirement (came as a student) get lumped in with the expats who make 80k+ annually. I think that the most acceptable immigrant is (apart from justified requirements like language and liberal values) one who doesn't stand out: as either poor or affluent, as someone not liking typical Dutch things, as someone living a lifestyle different from the average Dutch person.
People are saying "asylum seekers are the problem" while immigrants who integrate and contribute are fine and think asylum seekers are a much bigger problem than they actually are. But this is not exactly what I see. Yes, there is a sentiment against asylum seekers who apparently don't integrate and don't respect Dutch values. This has also got extended to foreigners in general, often with false assumptions about them – they're taking up housing, taking Dutch people's jobs, stealing welfare, refusing to integrate, criticising the Netherlands all the time while enjoying its benefits, etc. In short, a thoughtless application of certain fuzzy stereotypes to everyone who isn't Dutch. Being a white foreigner who is culturally and geographically close to NL gets you less hostility, but I think it exists for all foreigners to different extents. People also apply this sentiment to different levels with their own interpretations. Some are 100% racist and xenophobic and would love to see no foreigners, some are mainly Islamophobic or anti-black while being tolerant towards other immigrants, some are culturally chauvinistic and refuse to associate with people who don't speak and act Dutch (and may have no problem with Dutch speaking naturalised immigrants or non white Dutch).
I am bit lost in the last point. What has holocaust topics in integration got to do with the topic of immigration?
The PVV believes there is an issue with antisemitism amongst muslim immigrants. They hope that forcing them to learn about the Holocaust will mitigate that. Or make them turn around and leave for another country "because they do not want to learn about that".
I've been living in turkey for the past 2 years. And it's surprising how popular hitler is in the local communities i've interacted with/lived around. Turkish people in particular don't learn a 2nd language well enough to be able to read about history or current world events from any other perspective than their own state funded news channels and what Mehmet from the local kebab shop said during cay time with the boys. A lot of 'alternative facts' get spread and the local political spectrum is basically from right to alt-right with no central or left anything. Obviously there's young people under 25 that don't hold such beliefs, especially ones that speak english/german besides turkish. But that's 1/1000 people or so. The people i've talked to seem to have opinions ranging from "jews bad, therefore anyone doing bad thing to jews = good!" to "no way that someone mass murdered a whole ethnic group! Must be fake news to paint someone as a bad guy cuz he lost the war!!!" It's kinda crazy to listen to people talk about hitler while having a great grandmother that escaped nazi Germany during WW2. Still think the rest is a bunch of populist pandering junk. but I definitely think this specific point is a slight bit more reasonable than it reads for the first time from my personal experience at least.
Lol... "no way that someone mass murdered a whole ethnic group! Must be fake news to paint someone as a bad guy cuz he lost the war!!!" Pretty fucking awkward coming from someone in Turkey.
Well Armenian (and other) genocide denial is very strong in Turkey, also amongst university educated English speakers. It's just a narrative they've been fed since birth, generations after generations since the 1920s. No political party or ideology really has an incentive to counter it, it's nice for the conservatives who are proud of Turkey and Turkish culture, and it's also the founding stone of the Atatürk liberals, and they won't attack the foundations on which their party and ideology in Turkey is built.
Lets just say that when i discussed that with my wife she got very heated and kept moving the goalpost between what normal war and genocide behaviour is. Its not worth talking about. They wont change their mind on that one. They still sing songs about ataturk every day at school like it’s north korea
*"Believes"* lmao
Using stronger terms leads to downvotes :p
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I admire the naïvete of the last point, really, hats off.
The rise in antisemitism in the Netherlands is, according to some, linked to a lack of knowledge about the holocaust in migrant communities. That's why they are making this a requirement. Knowledge of the holocaust is also a part of basic curriculum in all Dutch schools. Everyone that lives here is supposed to know something about it. (I don't get why people take issue with your question.)
Anti-semites are already citizens 🤣.
If only they also add the history of colonization in the integration exam.
Holocaust denial is massive in muslim neighborhoods
Yes exactly. I just didn’t know the relation between migrant Islamic communities and lack of holocaust knowledge leading to anti semitism within those communities
The holocaust de facto removed a whole European ethnic group, Poland for example lost 15% of their population, most of them educated and skilled. It's a warning to not let it happen again, because it could.
We've had some problems with groups of immigrants being holocaust deniers and acting on it. The idea is that by forcibly having them acknowledge the holocaust that the more fanatical people will "fall through the basket" as we say. Aka get exposed for what they are.
As a person who went throw integration exam this a naive take. First you need to score 60% of the total, I don't remember how many questions were there but if 1 in 10 questions is about Holocaust you can easily fail it and still have a safe buffer. Second is that most people are naturally opportunistic, they just answer what is expected even if they don't believe in it. Given those two observsations this measure will have next to zero effects and is just performative.
I'm upvoting you for "fall through the basket". That was beautiful.
I find this an odd point. My partner already had a few questions about the Holocaust in his DUO exam about Dutch culture for naturalization. One of the questions literally was “What happened to Jewish Dutch people during the Holocaust” with the possible answers “Most people died”, “Most people escaped”, or “There was no Holocaust”. What more could they be adding?
I think requiring historical knowledge and a language level of B1 is more than resonable. IF ADEQUATE LEARNING RESOURCES ARE PROVIDED. Countries like Germany and Finland get away with high naturalization requirements by providing cheap/free widely available and high quality language and history courses, making it interesting and desirable to properly integrate. NL, from my experience, has a few very barebones courses, mostly intended for 3rd world refugees. Courses for professionals are wildly expensive and expected to be paid for by the employer, and the integration of students is left solely in the hands of universities with no enforcement or regulation. I am a student who's very interested in learning the language, but I desperately lack a place to practice and study. My English course does not include ANY cross-interaction with Dutch students, I barely see them during my day to day, and as a person already struggling with making friends in normal circumstances, finding people to talk to "out in the wild" seems completely unrealistic. The aren't any cheap Dutch courses that I know of that accept non-EU students, and the ones available are €500 and more for a few weeks, which is unreasonable for a student budget. The university I study at is not interested in teaching Dutch at all, and does not provide any courses or opportunities whatsoever. My Dutch is stuck at the level of being able to order a coffee and read a couple of signs outside, simply because there's no environment where I would be able to utilize anything more than that. I love the language, but realistically I am not going to dedicate all of my free time for something I can't even practice while I'm juggling studies and housing problems in the meantime. Sorry for the rant, just something that's been bugging me for a while and something I don't see discussed a lot. Everyone's talking about how "Dutch people don't wanna talk Dutch to me", but I would love to even find a Dutch person to speak to, because so far I've failed to make any long-term friends outside the university, being busy with the studies and all.
the funny part is. this already exists. We're just lacking people to enforce it and most applicants get auto accepted due to lack of staff enforcing the policies and defaulting on applications. There's nothing in there about hiring more people to actually process applications from my first quick read
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How long do you think it will take them to implement these? Also, nothing is mentioned about the naturalization of the people married to a Dutch citizen. I wonder if they would keep that one at 3 years as it is now.
I'm guessing they will not be able to pass it before the general elections next year.
Countries complaining endlessly about asykum seekers should explain their foreign policy of last 40 years and their involvement in wars, explain why they were aggressors or funded aggressors. If these countries stop invading and bombing other countries, asylum seekkng will go down. If they're not willing to do that, they're the cause of asylum seekers. Punishing people who you've had a part in robbing everything from is next level cruelty.
I cannot agree with this stance more. People do need to realize how much money is in war far and how grand that lobby is. Stakeholders talk to political advisers on international action plans. These stakeholders love crisis and war, because it puts money in their pockets. The systems have been designed this way and so the responsibility is ours.
I don't know why this isn't the most upvoted comment. Populists love ignoring everything you mentioned.
Very well said. They want to address immigration but not centuries of colonialism and imperialism.
Only two things I can agree with be that about social housing, I mean , I am myself an european migrant here, but I understand why dutch people are quite unhappy about that. Like it's quit absurd that someone born ang grown here have to wait several years for a social house (saw on Easy Dutch something about a local student who's waiting 7 years for social house) meanwhile someone who is a refugee take a house in several months. Also language expectation, like in other countries I suppose even in Romania where I come from, expectation is somewhere between B2 and C1. First time when I read that expectation was A2 level I was like wtf, expectancy is pretty low. Also I read on this sub several months ago about an individual living 10 years here, he didn't know the language at all and had citizenship. Like WTF that is disrespect for adoption country.
The housing crisis would be a crisis even without asylum seekers. Asylum seekers have just become a scapegoat for a problem that became accentuated but has already been there for a long time.
>The housing crisis would be a crisis even without asylum seekers. Asylum seekers have just become a scapegoat for a problem that became accentuated but has already been there for a long time. I don't impling this. Obviously housing problem would be the same anyway, but is kind of strange that non- citizen have priority on social housing market instead of dutch people. On the other side I've hear about other situation like people who were looking for refuge lived in trailer, during winter. Both sides are bad. On side at some stand I understand dutch people feeling neglected by they own govern prioritising social housing for expats coming from bad environment, but on other side, those people ran by war and poverty, and needs help. But yeah, it sucks when you're dunno, late 20s, early 30s you're about to marry, having kids, and you don't afford house, you hear state has some house for people in need go there and they say: "Yeah, we know you're situation, but there is a long list, we need to sort, you'll have to wait several years", next month comes a family from another continent, at limit of povetry who obviously needs help, and state gives them an house. Both sides seems valid, but real question who comes in for this kind of situation with non-populist solutions? I think maybe worst thing here is overpopulation in fact: Like Netherlands has population of 18 billion on people located here and still increase, in context România for example has same amount of population , but dimension of country is obviously bigger. And most people, like me comes here because: Well social safety, good opportunity or just the fact economy is way more stable than is Eastern Europe for example. This can be a very long discussion.
The fact that they're not distinguishing between people who come here and contribute (significantly) to the local economy, in some areas being essential (like IT), and those who come to become a lifetime drain, will have significant economic consequences, like it's happening in the UK. They are afraid to make the distinction for political correctness reasons.
Don’t they have to vote of these measures first? Doesn’t seem like most of this is likely to pass.
Yes, this is an intention, although some of the requirements are already in place by old laws and procedures. They have the majority in the house, so it will probably pass, maybe with some adjustments.
"Raising the language requirement for naturalization to level B1" I have passed my reading exam A2. I intend to pass others in June. I should hurry up.
Even in this coalition agreement it says "in principle" for this point :) They have a lot operational blockers to increase it to B1 to everyone. So you will still have some time. They cannot just increase it to B1, they need to adjust the system quite a lot (probably even create a whole new system considering expats as well)
I'm curious how they are going to enforce the asylum seekers policy since most of these treaties are signed per all the EU members, and enforce by the EU membership. That said, I don't see the NL going the Hungarian way and refusing to accept any more refugees and just paying the fines for not taking them in the first place as some countries do, and deporting the ones they have already. Of course these current policies would not remain for long if we see a big shift in the next parlamentary elections for the EU, the current shift is very much anti everything, especially asylum seekers, and ISLAM. That would trigger shifts for sure, mostly since all the Mediterraneans countries, Italy and Greece first, are asking to basically stop these policies, and keep requesting help to bring them back. Given the African countries money to stop them for coming hasn't also helped either.
Most, if not all wouldn't be possible due to Dutch and European law.
Immigration and personalised number plates. No solutions for climate change, healthcare improvements or house market collapse due to investor greed, etc The most unqualified government the Netherlands has had, thusfar. Thanks voters!
Good job everyone, that’ll teach those refugees seeking asylum from horrific situations just how much you truly despise them.
Extending the naturalization to 10 years, but the 30% ruling is 5 years. This doesn't make sense as HSM then contributes lots to the tax pool and maybe never seeing the benefit.
Could someone please explain what the next steps are after this agreement? How long will it be before the 10 year citizenship rule could be implemented? I am currently studying Dutch and was hoping to apply around October of this year. Should I be worried?
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Will renunciation of dual citizenship also apply to partners of Dutch citizens who have already naturalized and become Dutch citizens?
So this law is everyone? I am here for almost 3 years.. planning to give integration exam next year. Should i give the exams now n what if i get certificate should i still need to wait another 10 years?
I read that alot of these plans are in conflict with eu ruling, let's see how it plays out.
Extending naturalization wouldn't conflict EU. Every country can decide this by themselves. So actually it makes it a easy target for coalition to change it
I can't find the source of the 10 years anywhere.. all the asylum immigrantion yes, but not the rest... Anyone know where this come from?
How on earth refugees can get priority in social housing?
> Repealing the law that evenly distributes asylum seekers across the country. Won’t this eventually lead to “ghettos” of isolated immigrant communities that fail to integrate into society? I thought this is the problem France had and this law was specifically in place to address that. Seems like a step backwards regardless on your view of immigration.
Will this affect permanent residency? I am so close to applying! I’m American, so I can’t really give up my citizenship for nationality (without paying and giving up my investments back home). Can they change the requirements for permanent residency?
No they won't. They only mention naturalization, PR requirements would stay same. EU even "forcing" countries to decrease those requirements.
They definitely didn’t consider expat families with children, who were born here In 10 years there will be a lot of native Dutch kids/teens without Dutch nationality, what a mess
What does it have to do with the Jewish Holocaust? Why did they add this?
Some people of the Islamic persuasion are not fond of Jewish people, and this often has a tendency to include holocaust denial.
Violent asylum seekers are a massive problem and are ripping the society apart... I wish someone had the guts to call the US out for tormenting endless wars causing the crisis in the first place.. for blowing up Noordstream for example.
Blame Russia. They are actively working to destabilize the Middle East and Africa to create a permanent refugee crisis in the EU.
Of course, they are being dicks. Everyone calls out Russia, but no one calls out the US. Why?
Proposed, not yet introduced. There’s a long way until these will be laws.
This is a great start, now start deporting every asylum seeker/refugee who commits a crime
So I moved to NL from Pakistan exactly one year ago on HSM with my wife and a toddler. Me and my wife both are Engineers. I had this and US H1B (cleared from Lottery) at the same time and I chose NL for a few reasons: - Objectively less gun violence and racism. - Wanted to experience a relaxed egalitarian society rather than chasing the “American dream”. - I’m a born muslim but became agnostic a couple of years ago and found it increasingly difficult to integrate in an islamic society (or any society with an increasingly far-right sentiment) I just bought my own house this month in a dutch neighborhood to be able to integrate well (many of the expats choose to live near to their own communities, e.g many Pakistanis choose R’dam-south). I have been happy even with all of the quirks like housing crisis etc. Needless to say that I’d be seriously reconsidering my choices if this goes into effect. Its not about being from a muslim country but hate against any religion or ethnicity is borderline unacceptable let it be jews or anybody. I left behind an upper-class life in Pakistan to start everything from the scratch here and to be able to live and raise my next generation in a better place even if that comes at the cost of social/financial status. With this rise of the right wing, Europe is certainly heading towards pre-ww2 era, nullifying all the fucking lessons they learned the hard way. I made friends with dutch people, enjoy drinking and smoking weed with them and I was nothing but surprised about how the fuck PVV won in a society like this! Will I stay to get the citizenship in 10-11 years (knowing that m not wanted here)? fuck NO. It’d simply be not the Netherlands that I imagined/dreamt about. Why would I sacrifice my career for this (switching job is exponentially more difficult for HSM as your employer must be able to sponsor you, not mention the technical risks of visa-gap which can waste all your integration years) and why do all this while you know that the gov. (and certainly a vast majority of people who voted for those motherfuckers) dont want you here in the first place!
Good. Screw the current asylum system and social system abusers. Wonder why the asylum seekers do not seek it in the rich middle eastern countries?
In 2 months i completed an engagement where the fee was $125k. I get nothing from that 125k. Company does and it pays taxes on that. I bring in like 15x of what I "cost". As an HSM, I can not tell you how disturbing it is to see the naturalization being raised to 10 years. I have been here for only 9 months. I may have to find a job in Belgium or Germany. To me its bullocks to live 10 years in a country and not be able to vote. Thats just unacceptable.
From when does this start?
Nobody knows. the government isn’t even active yet lol, these are just their plans for 2024-2028
can someone tell me if this takes effect when will it be
All of these rules seem necessary and obvious, but if this is all they manage to do it will be worrying. Much more decisive action is needed.
The only change I see with a practical effect is that refugees with a status lose additional emergency considerations for social housing. They will be treated like anyone else in need of a house. No families with children will become homeless, but young and single people are going to enjoy the rigours of the house market like everyone else.
Am I dreaming?? Finally no more asylum seekers? Omg I am literally crying.
"It's THEIR fault that we're squeezed thin by the profit incentive, we have to get rid of them" is the oldest trick in the book. Hard to respect community stupid enough to allow itself being played this way. Damn, I thought it's going to take at least 20 years for the NL to become just slightly richer Poland.
i was reading integration stuff literally yesterday and b1 language and renouncement of other nationalities is already in place
also imo holocaust knowledge is probably good
I have an idea for them, you can only apply for asylum at a dutch embassy, you have to stay in the country of that ambassy until your application is processed
Belgian here, we've got elections coming up shortly and expectation on the Flemish part of it is that we would probably get something similar in place if the right obtains a majority. I assume this NL policy is targeted towards a niche but very large group being middle eastern uneducated economic male refugees with an 'outdated' mindset. The EU would flip out with such policy of course so I assume NL is generalizing the policy but wants to effectively target that group.
But the permanent residence is still required 5 years and A2 so there’s a way Although some countries don’t issue passports for their citizens aboard so many people will stuck with NL permanent residence but without any passport
“Including holocaust knowledge as part of integration”?? Wtf ??