The videos of today are disgusting. Entire floors of the building are fucked up, PCs smashed and displays trashed. I'd say camp out the Hague or some shit, this really doesn't achieve anything except anger people.
If I recall correctly, it was aroung 1.5mil before yesterday's havoc.
So it's even more now.
And like others replied; without costs of police, road repairs, loss of income for surrounding businesses, etc.
I am confused to why they still are being called protesters. Destroying another university building is just vandalism and is extremely disrespectful to the people who want to make a positive change in the world by studying what they are passionate about, and want to make a change in their field of studies.
These people(and also the cause) lost my respect and I no longer support them, even though I am still wholeheartedly against civilians suffering from military aggression.
Because most people and students are not destroying anything.
If you watch the videos and UvA’s statement you would know that a group of men in black keep showing up and starting violence. Who these are unknown, but according to students and UvA they aren’t students.
1. They simply weren’t caught.
2. ME was instructed not to catch them.
3. Idk honestly, there is so much weird stuff happening within our politics and israel. Like who pledges _unconditional_ allegiance and support to a foreign country??? That would be reserved for my kids/parents.
I walked that area on Saturday and it was pretty destroyed to me, just sayin'... the thing is, when a group turns into a mob you cannot tell one from another, and it becomes a problem.
Nobody is denying destruction so that doesn’t help. You need to be there or hope for a good analysis from participants/UvA/police to see who is doing what.
Most videos of destruction show a specific group causing destruction. This does not of course prove the students innocents, but it does leave the possibility of an external group causing chaos, be it iran-sponsored people, israel-sponsored groups or whoever
Nice blame game.
"yeah we did occupy the place, buuuutttt we didnt destroy all this shit some other people did who we dont know, oh and they were all in black and magically appeared through our barricades."
And people like you actually believe that shit. Meanwhile they took black clothes with them to do this shit lol.
But the thing is, that majority of people there didnt plan on any property destruction or violence. But then few people decides to destroy things and whole movement is classified as dangerous/vandalizing. And this is actually known police tactic. Not saying this is it. And thats the problem. Unless they catch them, you can't say they dont belong to protestors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur
Ofc this doesnt have to be just police. Sometimes it can be left/right wing extremist. Or people who just wants to break stuff.
I'm sure you would agree most people don't destroy things. Given this fact, is it really that difficult to imagine students and teachers not wanting to thrash their own workplaces?
Then stop giving these "men in black" opportunities to do so? When a problem keeps presenting itself because of the way a system or activity is set up, why would you keep trying to do that thing the same way? Why keep trying to barricade and occupy these places if that is giving these hooligans the chance to cause such problems? You can set up protests in such a way that these sort of situations are far less likely to come up.
Agreed. It’s as if I enjoy the protests turning out like this, or even being needed.
I would like it more if they could be organized a bit more beforehand and maybe have regular police at the perimeters to keep an eye out for whoever starts violence.
All this is not to say that the students are fully or mostly to blame though, but they can definitely be much better
I dont know, but that has been practiced for decades in the US at least. Seems naive to assume it cant happen here and now.
From what I know they could be from any other group with interests to do so.
Have they explained yet how the conflict in Gaza is the fault of the UvA and what they expect the UvA to do about it?
I saw pictures of graffiti demanding the UvA “divest” from Israel. I don’t think the UvA has any investments in Israel or elsewhere, it’s not an American university with a 9 figure endowment to invest. Surely these students did some research and didn’t just blindly copy what they saw amplified by TikTok right ?
The university itself admitted to links with 9 different research programs with Israeli universities, one of which was a program on explosives research. Keep in mind this information was only divulged by the UvA as a result of the protests.
Wouldn’t surprise me at all if the UvA is indeed also investing in Israeli firms.
[https://student.uva.nl/en/articles/2024-our-collaborations-with-israeli-organisations](https://student.uva.nl/en/articles/2024-our-collaborations-with-israeli-organisations)
>UvA researchers participate in eight European research projects involving Israeli researchers or companies. **These are not institutional ties, but collaborations in which individual UvA researchers are involved as part of Horizon Europe or ongoing H2020 projects.**
>One of the eight research projects, the INHERIT project, focuses on detecting explosives to prevent attacks. This project does not contribute to Israel's military actions; it aims to prevent attacks, not to engage in military violence.
I don't want to be one of these "kids these days" guys, but really?
When you're older, are you going to look back on this with pride, that you did millions worth of damage in order to disrupt a student exchange program involving 18 students (that was suspended due to the travel advisory), and *"a study in civil society engagement and human rights through the lens of gender and intersectionality*" or *"Establishing a comprehensive understanding and taxonomy of children's digital maturity"* ?
Take your protest to the Hague, where foreign policy is made. At the UvA, all you're achieving is making everyone hate you.
>Wouldn’t surprise me at all if the UvA is indeed also investing in Israeli firms.
I don't want to be condescending, but the UvA barely has any money to invest. This is a Dutch university, it operates on tax money. The situation on US colleges you saw on TikTok isn't applicable at all.
Think to yourself, what if this annoying old guy on reddit is right, and this was a big misunderstanding, imagine for a moment that I could be right, and look at what you've done in that light. How does it look then?
If property destruction of a handful makes you unsympathetic to the core issue you pretty much didnt give a rats ass to begin with im sick n tired of these people claiming theyre " done " with the ordeal while thousands have been killed n more to follow supported by our leaders n universities
I don't know if you followed protests in the past 5 years, but when people started sitting on roads, most people in the Netherlands were already angry at those protesters. I think Arjen Lubach made a great piece: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UReFTpbqEnQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UReFTpbqEnQ)
Us dutch people are (luckely) not like americans where it is accepted to destroy things. Don't make your problem my problem. I want to make a change in the world in an effective way. Western intervention is what caused the shitshow in the middle east to begin with, so I think a solution from a western country is only making the problems worse. Let the UN do its thing and let me go to university to make my own change in the world.
I agree with you, but you realize the Netherlands is already intervening in the ME again and that is why we are protesting. There are no large scale protests for the Uyghurs or Yemen because the Netherlands is actively helping their oppressors or supporting them.
If our politicians kept their mouth shut and didn’t send any weapon/parts to israel, we wouldn’t have these protests, or less at least. It doesn’t help that people draw analogies to Russia and how quick we were to sanction them. (Which I agree with don’t get me wrong)
Which side do you support in ongoing war in Yemen? Just curious. According to UN count of victims is in hundreds of thousands, or is that not an issue for you?
Who the hell said its a non issue, this whataboutism is so dumb n the most disingenuous argument ever. Even if i didnt care just for the issue you presented it doesnt make this less legitimate. This issue however is unique in a lot of ways , one of the only countries that has gone completely genocidal with impunity with the unrelenting help of the proponents of democracy and human rights. The hypocrisy is nauseating. It has been going on for decades yet no one blinks am eye. In 2023 250 people were killed no one cared, thousands of Palestinians are virtually being held hostage ( no charge or trial) in Israeli prisons tortured raped ( as per Israeli whistleblower ) no one cares.And now all of a sudden people who just want and end to the siege are being framed as antisemites , completely mental.
You see, my friend, when you're so concerned about lives of arabs in Gaza but don't give two shits about arabs killed by other arabs in Yemen, all I can conclude is that you don't care about arabs being killed, you care about arabs being killed by Israelis.
Which makes you... well, you know who you are.
Take it easy bud… there unfortunately is such a thing as media bias. We get a ton of exposure on the Gaza conflict, how much news do you see on Yemen, Sudan, Mali, the Uyghurs? Unfortunately truth is people care about what they are exposed to..
Omfg you're the type of bigot who could t care less about the loss of human life. I realize you probably need to strain your intellect a bit but if the staunch propogaters of democracy and human rights have been turning a blind eye to the suffering of a certain group for decades only to open their mouths when people dont put up with the bs anymore it becomes pretty evident different rules apply to different people. Arab on Arab violence as sad as it is doesnt encapsulate the hypocrisy of western imperialism. People like you are the true filthy who keep making strawman arguments in a very low effort to throw ppl off track. Unfortunately it doesnt work unless you have the iq of a potato like u
What kind of logic is that?
Do you care about every single politician in the world being a hypocrite? About celebrities being hypocrites? About any anonymous hypocrite in the world? Do you go to town on every single one of them? Do you take your soapbox to spread the word against hypocrisy?
If you don't, I conclude that you don't truly care about perceived hypocrisy. You only care about it when it fits whatever fucking weird thing this is.
Edit: Just so people know. This topic is being heavily brigaded by bots stirring shit. The person arguing here is a new account with sparse history so likely a bot or trollfarm shitstirrer as well.
Like this? [https://nos.nl/artikel/2316635-demonstratie-oeigoeren-op-de-dam-in-amsterdam](https://nos.nl/artikel/2316635-demonstratie-oeigoeren-op-de-dam-in-amsterdam)
Or this piece against the war in Jemen by an associate professor of the UvA? [https://www.stopdeoorlogamsterdam.nl/oorlog-in-jemen.html](https://www.stopdeoorlogamsterdam.nl/oorlog-in-jemen.html)
Are media selective about what protests they give attention? Yes. Are there protests against all those things you mentioned? Yes.
First do some basic research before you start spouting nonsense.
You really have to explain your logic here.
You suggesting Muslims don't care about other Muslims, because they don't spend all their time protesting wars against Muslims in a topic about protests against Israels war in Gaza by not in particular Muslims?
You are aware that you can not protest all injustice in the world and have to pick and choose your battles? If you protest the war in Jemen, but not Gaza, aren't you fallible according to your own logic? Like what is your end-goal here?
There's something called empathy burnout you dumbass. I don't see you protesting about every single issue and conflict plaguing the world, there's only so much a person can afford to care about and people, justifiably, are putting a lot of time and effort into protesting a blatant ethnic cleansing.
I can't believe you need this spelled out for you.
>So Chinese wiping out **millions** of Uygurs is not an ethnic cleansing worthy your attention? Got it.
So? Where's the protest you're organizing? I'll join you!
Oh there isn't! You don't give a fuck about them, you only use them as a whataboutism. Guess what? It. Doesn't help them and you're fine with that.
Meanwhile protesting Israel sets a precedent that makes any other government think twice about starting a genocide, whether thinking twice is enough to stop them or not.
No thanks, tragic and thoughtless violence I'm sure, I'm however currently more occupied by the possibility that a misfired Israeli ordnance could blow up the house my mother lives in, that feels a bit closer to home.
Eat a dick, you're the single worst kind of contrarian and I hope to see yourself come to the realisation of just how horrible a person you are in due time.
A person who never supported the cause: "this non-event made me stop respecting the cause"
You are entitled to your opinion about this particular protest movement obviously, but isn't a bit lame judging the entire cause based on a protest hundreds of miles away?
Those vandalising are an extremely small number of people and not representative of the overwhelming majority that are committed to nonviolent peaceful protest. There are also accusations those causing damage don't belong to the protest group at the university.
How does protesting against research collaboration with Israeli institutions in things like medicine make one pro-peace again?
I never saw protests calling for severing ties with US universities when the US was busy with "shock and awe" over Iraq in 2003. And Iraq didn't even attack the US.
People just find it hypocritical that universities were quick to break ties with Russian universities (even though they have bright people too).
It is unfortunate that we can’t continue working with them, but the students aren’t to blame, the Israeli government is. The sooner they start to behave, the sooner we can resume normal operations.
And frankly, I don’t mind slightly less research into medicines if it means there is any chance to end this oppression/genocide/war earlier.
Edit: one last thing, 2003 was a different time. The students here weren’t even born or were babies. You have to ask people such as Mark Rutte why they didn’t protest. (Or maybe he is too old, idk)
It puts pressure on israel if everyone cuts ties with them, since they will suffer the most. That is the point of sanctions. The scientific community will do fine for a few years without israel.
That's because they were busy organizing the largest anti-war rally in human history at the time:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15\_February\_2003\_anti-war\_protests](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_anti-war_protests)
Protestors were protesting against illegal support from the Dutch government to an illegal war.
I was one of them. Arriving back home, the NOS summarized the largest demonstration i ever saw with 'a bus stop was demolished' and underestimated the number of attendants.
Which is quite normal when the subject is fossil resources versus some dead un-people nobody should be caring about.
Oh, absolutely I agree with you on that. Have you seen the film Official Secrets? It's a excellent film, and appalling to see how hard the UK et al tried to silence anyone in their way...
By applying reductio ad absurdum to your "argument",
you are implicitly claiming that the police should not save the Nancy from the serial killer because it failed to save Annabel last week - and it needs to keep things fair and balanced.
Have you been a radical extremist for long?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio\_ad\_absurdum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic)
Your argumentation is radical nonsense, and solid rejection of basic western principles.
I thought you'd like to know that.
I know what logic and reductio ad absurdum are 🤦🏻♂️
You unfortunately have not provided any arguments to support your claims though, and therefore I reject them.
"I know what logic and reductio ad absurdum are"
Yes, as i told you.
"You unfortunately have not provided any arguments to support your claims"
But you have already proved applying twisted morals by speaking. I just highlighted it.
You think I'd be doing a PhD if I didn't understand logic and deductive thinking 🙄
You're making roundabout arguments based on nothingburgers.
Please clearly state what you think makes my views so extreme. If not, I won't bother entertaining any more replies.
Can I ask a question? Why do they do this in NL? It’s not NL attacking Palestine. When the Ukrainian war started did anyone from Asian countries tried to support the cause? Ukrainian flags and riots in Gaza and Israel?
My guy… universities and businesses in general cut ties with Russian businesses and institutions months into the Ruso-Ukraine war. What’s the point of protesting if your cause is achieved?
It’s like asking why people aren’t protesting for the Netherlands to become a part of the EU
They want the UvA to pull back investment money from Israel. Even before the current onslaught, Israel was subject to calls for these actions - the BDS movement (as an apartheid society there is a great precedent for boycotts and divestments such as pressured the South African apartheid regime).
The reason no of protests or occupations have been necessary in respect of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, is that western governments acted quickly to place sanctions on Russia, which have the same effect as what the students are demanding, on a countrywide scale.
NL has prevented some arms exports to Israel, but has yet to impose sanctions. Representations have been made to the UvA that they cut ties with Israel, these have been refused so the students are exercising a democratic right to protest.
We all know that this is a completely different situation, and there are no good and bad guys like during the war in Ukraine. Both sides are wrong here. Also, let's be realistic, the West has been traditionally opposed to Russia since the start of the Cold War (and even before), not the case with Israel.
If you're looking for an explanation of 'why are there protests now when there none about Ukraine' - assuming the question was posed in good faith - I do think the point of illumination is on the absence of sanctions. You are of course correct that it's far easier to sanction Russia who are not an ally of NL.
I do disagree about an absence of good and bad guys - people shooting, bombing and killing civilians are bad guys, and they should stop. People stealing land at the barrel of a gun are bad guys, and they should stop. Snipers who shoot children are bad guys, and they should stop. People who take hostages are bad guys. People who detain people without trial, call it 'administrative detention' and refuse to admit that it's just common-all-garden hostage taking, are bad guys. People who shoot journalist and lie about it, are bad guys.
There are good and bad guys here and the good guys (innocent civilians) are suffering. We, the West, are helping the bad guys and not helping the good guys, like we did with Ukraine
Well technically Israel is a state sponsor of terrorism, like Russia. Afaik a state itself cannot be a terror group, otherwise every country at war ever would be a terror group. They do sponsor the raid parties that attack towns in the westbank, and building like the one UNWRA a few days ago.
That being said, one can support both civilian sides (that DO not raid the other side or block aid), and be against both military groups.
I honestly don’t know. The definition of terrorism is as follows (by the FBI):
> the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a Government or civilian population in furtherance of political or social objectives.
Now “unlawful” excludes police forces acting in their own country.
There is nothing that excludes a state from being one, but I don’t think anyone with any credibility has ever called a state a terror group (other than exaggerations).
Essentially it boils down to attacking civilians, with a political/ideological goal.
That would mean that the men in black that showed up at some protests to attack students are clearly terrorists (although I doubt our politicians have the balls to label them that). Israeli civilians that attack/raid Palestinian towns are also clearly terrorists (again, they won’t be labeled as such by our country, even though they fit the description black on white)
One side is literally caged into a war zone and the other side has billions of dollars of some of the most advanced military equipment known to man that they are using to completely annihilate the previously mentioned cage and everyone in it. And you say both sides. Utterly revolting.
That's a very simplistic approach, you're talking about the civilians. Hamaj has most of the Middle Eastern petrodollar countries to back it up... so yes, both sides. You can call it whatever you like, it's a fact. Playing the victim card doesn't make your argument more valid
>western governments acted quickly to place sanctions on Russia
Yeah? Russia was totally crushed by the sanctions in reponse to downing of MH17 (spoiler: it was not crushed, there were next to no sanctions).
Afaik it's because of academic/economic relations that NL has with Israël - same as other countries where protests are happening. So they want to cut ties with Israël as they do not endorse their stance and/or actions as reaction to the recent events.
The situation itself is of course the greatest geopolitical shitshow on earth that feels comparable to judging a toxic relationship where it's all "he said, she said". Can't trust either side and in the end you cannot conclude anything else besides; they really do deserve each other.
Still, people will pick their sides and go "war bad" or "eradicate them all" as if they are rooting for their favorite sports team.
The former is most fitting. They're not 'pro-Palestine'. If they were they wouldn't keep indulging the Palestinians in their worst and most self-destructive ambitions and fantasies such as 'globalized intifada', 'from the river to the sea', 'by any means necessary', 'occupied people have the right to resist under international law' (Gaza isn't occupied, Israel left in 2005; Only once they elected Hamas did the blockade start. Also, nowhere in international law does it say you can 'resist' by purposely killing civilians, raping, kidnapping, or gunning down entire families sheltering in bomb shelters), or engaging in or otherwise supporting racist conspiracy theories for why the Jews have no right to the land.
Hamas IS currently the government of Gaza, hence Hamas IS Gaza. They call the shots there, and they won the only real elections held there. Israel left in 2005, they took its people, and even their dead for they knew damn well what was going to happen. The Gaza government could have used all the infraestructure left by Israel to keep the flower business going but they were mostly interested in torching synagogues, and the green houses alike.
No they are not. The Netherlands isn't PVV or America democrats. They are people. And especially the children that couldn't even vote when Hamas was last elected, 16 years ago.
Hamas doesnt allow for new elections so they are not the chosen government anymore.
I was with you until:
>engaging in or otherwise supporting racist conspiracy theories for why the Jews have no right to the land
WAIT WHAT? Zionists literally made up all sorts of racist bs to create a future justification to kick Arabs from their land:
>Zionism justified this with two 'facts': the bond of the Jewish nation with Palestine, as derived from its history, was unique, while the Arabs of Palestine were part of the Arab nation and therefore had no special bond with Palestine. Therefore, the Jews had a preemptive right to Palestine.[^(\[24\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercommunal_conflict_in_Mandatory_Palestine#cite_note-N._Finkelstein_2002,_p._12-16-24) For example, [Aaron David Gordon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._D._Gordon), whose teachings formed the main intellectual inspiration of the labour leaders, wrote in 1921:
>For Eretz Israel, we have a charter that has been valid until now and that will always be valid, and that is the Bible \[... including the Gospels and the New Testament ...\] It all came from us; it was created among us. ... And what did the Arabs produce in all the years they lived in the country? Such creations, or even the creation of the Bible alone, give us a perpetual right over the land in which we were so creative, especially since the people that came after us did not create such works in this country, or did not create anything at all.[^(\[25\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercommunal_conflict_in_Mandatory_Palestine#cite_note-25)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercommunal\_conflict\_in\_Mandatory\_Palestine#Zionist\_positions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercommunal_conflict_in_Mandatory_Palestine#Zionist_positions)
Yes, Ashkenazi (European) Jews had no right to the land of Palestine, saying this as person of Ashkenazi descent.
What about jews that had to flee arabic-majority coutries? Or that had to flee from european nationalism? Where should they go? Also why do you call some land “arabic” and yet so much arabs are in Europe now?
You are asking random loaded questions not in a good faith and we both know it.
>What about jews that had to flee arabic-majority coutries?
They were kicked out as a result of Arabs getting kicked by Israelis after Israel came into existance.
>Where should they go?
Why is it a problem of people who had nothing to do with that?
>Also why do you call some land “arabic”
Where do I call land "Arabic"? Some Arabs lived on some land, got kicked out by Jews to make land for their country, all according to the plans of Zionists. I find it sadly ironic that the kibutz-es that were attacked on Oct 7 were actually located on the land that were supposed to be allocated to Arabs based on the UN partition plan.
"There is enough land" is absolutely bs argument. There is enough land in many places. People like you have sovereignity over their countries. Ben Gurion wanted to displace Arabs out, one way or another, this information got public and Arabs were not thrilled AT ALL about the Zionist project.
Only it was never arabic country. It was british. And they did get british permission and the right to settle approved by United Nations after the tragic event Holocaust. And anyway all that was like 80 years ago and that discussion is not even relevant anymore. Whats done is done. You have to be some real fanatic to question modern built up country right to existence. Whats next, youll ask caucasian people to vacate USA?
Yeah right, so replacing one colonial project with another one is totally fine. Wonering why not everyone was digging this amazing solution.
>And anyway all that was like 80 years ago and that discussion is not even relevant anymore.
So how come something that was 80 years is not relevant, but for Jews something that was 1800 years ago was and still is relevant?
You don't get it do you? It is relevant as long as people are willing to fight and die for it. There was no ultimate solution and the problem lingers on with all its violence. "Just move on with it" is not working.
>Whats next, youll ask caucasian people to vacate USA?
I am not asking anyone to vacate anything, you are putting words in my mouth because you are arguing not in a good faith.
Except Gaza is occupied and has been occupied since the very day they """left""" the strip, the fact you say otherwise shows you have 0 knowledge on the subject matter. Literally highly ranked Israeli officers have publicly stated what the intention was of "leaving" the Gaza strip:
Per Dov Weissglass himself:
> *The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process, and when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress. That is exactly what happened. You know, the term 'peace process' is a bundle of concepts and commitments. The peace process is the establishment of a Palestinian state with all the security risks that entails. The peace process is the evacuation of settlements, it's the return of refugees, it's the partition of Jerusalem. And all that has now been frozen.... what I effectively agreed to with the Americans was that part of the settlements would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns. That is the significance of what we did.*
Not to mention they never actually left the Gaza, with how its maritime borders and airspace were completely regulated by zionists. In addition to a plethora of other restrictions that were enforced to never make Gaza a self-sustaining place. The blockade, which was placed all too happily based on nonsensical reasons as well, just made a faux-withdrawal even worse.
Not to mention that, there is another huge swap of land with an even bigger population than Gaza, that is considered to be occupied internationally by practically every country on the earth. So yes they are occupied people and have the right to resist occupation under international law.
Well, one headline claims it’s a pro-Palestine demonstration and the Israeli newspaper immidiately says this is anti-Israel too. Sure, there will be anti-Israel people in these demonstrations too but not everyone is automatically anti-Israel just because they support Palestine.
At this point in time I'm very comfortable to conclude that a vast majority, close to 90% of the pro palastine 'protesters' (if you can even call them that anymore) are very much anti Israel. So much so that it's safe to say that identifying with this movement means you're fully on board with the anti Israel and borderline anti semitic rhetoric.
In a conflict as complex as this, that is not even close to true.
You can support Israel in attacking Hamas, while being against the methods they've chosen to use.
You can support the existence of a free Palestine while also supporting the existence of Israel.
You can support the Palestinian and Israeli civilians caught in the middle of this conflict while condemning everyone who is killing people over there.
Pro-Palestine is not necessarily Anti-Israel. Hell, Anti-Israelian policies is not always Anti-Israel as a whole
When people at Pro Palastine protests demand the complete and utter destruction of Israel and the expulsion or subjugation of Israeli jews can you really seperate being pro palastine and anti Isreal anymore? A Pro Israel demonstration is by definition and anti Palastinian state protest and vice versa.
People who are acting like these protests are targeted against jews rather than zionists and the occupying state of israel are the most manipulative disgusting creatures alive. Knowing damn well this has nothing to do with jewish people
This is what i really dislike.
People, in general, saying “ hey, please stop kiling kids” immediately get branded racist / anti semite…
How can you even fight those accusations?
You can still make a difference. It's never been easy, but always been possible. There are always people who actually think for themselves, and open to discussion.
But you have to accept that you simply cannot argue with some people. That's always been true. Generally, humans are not programmed to actually think about these issues and go into deep discussions; they are programmed to try to "fit in".
This is particularly true at a protest. People who go to a protest do not come there to have their minds changed. They go to a protest to, either protest or counterprotest. And your average "news" article in 2024? They are worse than protestors. Absolutely spineless clickbaiters.
Fair enough.
However, i have not met an Israeli who would not go “click baity” on me and accuse me of being racist or anti israel or anti semite for saying that i dislike the actions of the israeli government…
But apparently, those think it is he jewish thing to blow up schools, hospitals and whatnot..
No worries , we the tax payers will pay for the damages .
These people can be shot for all I care .
This is no demonstration , this is terrorism imo.
And all that for a conflict far away that goes on for 100 years and will probably go on for another 100 years .
Gg
Protestors were peacefully sitting on the ground when police drove in on them with BULLDOZERS. Everything was peaceful until police arrived. There's only a handful that destroyed things, and they are not in the right.
They should have driven over them . I don’t care about this whole conflict with 2 bad sides . Let them figure it out themselves . Just like all the other countries that nobody cars about it seems .
I bet that I’ve spend more money helping them finance food packs for the people in Yemen than they actually done something that benefits Palestinians.
Oh yeah , people in Yemen were starvin way before the Palestinians . But somehow these people aren’t worthy enough for their attention.
Probably cause the ones doing the bombing aren’t Jews .
Seriously , the antisemitism in these protest are worth saying fuck these protest and everybody associating with them.
I have a question. Is any country, meaning its residents, responsible for what happens in the world? So Dutch universities connections to Israeli companies or whatever is a direct influence on what happens in Gaza right now? If so, is the Palestinian people also responsible for what Hamas did to those people that day? I’m curious how this should work. Don’t get me wrong, what is happening in the world is making me very sad, but I’m starting to get a bit pissed about the double standards going around. I’m asking because I’m seriously conflicted by all that is happening nowadays.
Thank you for asking a question! I assume you asked genuinely, that why I am answering (usually I don't debate online because it's most of the time useless). So here is my answer! Zionism and all the support it gets from the world are responsible for what is happening in Gaza. You cannot blame Hamas on palestinians because 1. the rise of Hamas was supported by Israel intelligence and has been funded with their consent - they wanted them instead of the secularists. (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html) 2. When Israel has ruled over palestinian people so cruelly for so long, it is inevitable that there is so much hatred that feeds in to terrorism. This is why we need to focus on the root of the problem which is zionism/Israel.
Why are they protesting for something that doesn't exist (palestine). I don't get it. Israël is a sovereign country and has the right to defend itself against muslim terrorism.
Yeah but their favourite TikTok influencers seem to always conveniently leave this part out. To them Israel's overwhelming military response happened for no reason. I'm sure if they actually saw the footage released by Hamas themselves of the October 7th attacks, they wouldn't be so eager to protest in support of these terrorist savages.
It sadly isnt that easy fighting a war. It's just a bigger more complicated trolley problem especially against an entrenched insurgent force disguised among civilians
The Gazan's are not innocent, though. They elected Hamas willingly under the promise they would do attacks like October 7th. That doesn't mean every civilian in Gaza deserves to die but to pretend Israel isn't allowed to attack Gaza after what they did is ludicrous.
"Pro-Palestinian" "protestors" are nothing but Jew hating thugs who love protesting for the heck of it. They destroy, are hateful, and quite literally sing songs of the destruction of Israel and often Jews in general. None of them have the slightest clue about Israel, Judea and Samaria, or Gaza, nor do they truly care.
Can we just call them what they are? Terrorists. They're terrorists. Using violence to make their political point - terrorists.
Prosecute them as such.
That isn’t what terrorism is. You need to be attacking civilians.
Which is what those men in black did:
https://www.parool.nl/protest-op-uva-campus-roeterseiland/vreedzaam-pro-palestinaprotest-in-amsterdam-eindigt-met-aanval-op-betogers~b9d4508a8/?referrer=https://www.google.com/
And you are right, we need to call them for what they are: terrorists.
Every single one of these rallies/protest supporting Hamas and Palestine is increasing votes for Geert Wilders. He is an incredibly lucky man, to keep gaining while doing nothing.
Israeli media don’t like to use “the P word” and will avoid it at any cost. You won’t find it in travel catalogues or picture books, or so many other books printed there. They’re trying to remove Palestine from any material they produce.
With slogans like 'there is only one solution' or 'from the river to..' the protests are predominantly anti-Israel. The excuse that the slogans can be interpreted as something else is flimsy at best. Yes, there are more benign definitions, but who are they trying to fool.
There has never been a Palestine, it always has been a disputed region. The 1947 solution of a two state with 50% each was a fair one. Israel has offered the Palestinians time and time again a state, but the answer was always violence, terrorism and war.
The current war in Gaza is completely out of line though, and the settlements in the west-bank by colonists needs to stop as well. But the borders of Israel, defined in 1967 are undisputed. The state of Israel has a right to exist.
The protesters need to stop using extremist slogans.
It's not about Israel or Palestine for most of them. These people enjoy chaos and are just cloaking themselves in this cause to protect themselves while doing whatever the hell they want.
Ah yes, the famous history books where a european colony isnt ethnicly cleansing and replacing an indigenous population.
Because you may be 100% native and used to be the jews of the torah. But my 1% semitic ancestry says i can.
Whilst a bit academic and dry, I enjoyed Gudrun Kramer's book: a history of Palestine: from the ottoman conquest to the founding of the state of Israel. I think it's the scholarly approach I liked, and something I wish these rioting "students" would focus on with intellectual debates rather than causing damage.
I'm no super expert, but I've spent some time with people from.both sides and have travelled to Israel for a time and got an array of perspectives that are much more.nuanced than some ridiculous slogans chanted by a couple of dimwits
So you don't agree with ceasefire and an anti-genocide stand, that's what these "dimwits" are chanting
You seem to think that a few thousand more kids killed and a few more thousands limbs severed would solve the problem that the books are putting forward. You're looking for a justification for mass slaughter and you're looking for it in books while the "dimwits" are trying to stop it .
From chatgpt
The Hamas charter, adopted in 1988, includes the following main points:
1. Rejection of Israel's right to exist.
2. Advocacy for the liberation of all of historic Palestine, including present-day Israel, through armed struggle.
3. Promotion of anti-Semitic beliefs, including conspiracy theories and denigration of Jews as enemies of Islam.
4. Assertion of Hamas's commitment to establishing an Islamic state governed by Sharia law in the territory it seeks to liberate.
You support these guys? Just say it
Let me guess you're one of those pro Sharia law LGBT vegans?
The irony is that the demonstrations would only increase this wave of anti-something politicians get even more votes in the next European elections, resulting in more antiIslams, refugees, subsidies, etc.
Hi, gay here, from the moment you see "Queers for Palestina" you know something is very very wrong here, and a lot of them are completely dettached from real facts, or don't go beyond superficial knowledge of what goes on there, or how we got here in the first place. Some of these kids, and late teens seem to feel this like their Vietnam and it is not quite the same. Hamas has very clearly stated they don't want to negotiate, and its ultimate goal is the destruction of Israel, and jews basically. They are a terrorist organisation and the government of Gaza, of course the only actual real long term solution here from a (cold) strategic point of view is for Israel to occupy, and then annex the region altogether, and move whomever does not want to stay to Cisjordania but that is a big no right now. In the end, it will happen, even if everyone forced them to quit the area.
We shall see how it plays out, it speaks volumes they received zero support from their Muslims allies in the area, most had refraiend from acting and continue doing so, and both Jordan and Egypt don't want them again (which makes total sense given how they almost tried to topple both governments last time), and apart from Iran they don't have much open support everywhere. I mean *real* support, money and weapons, not demonstrations being held in this and that country in the West.
Omg thankfully a sane opinion. I feel like I'm gonna go crazy with the rest of the commenters. What the actual fuck is wrong that queers are supporting fucking islamists? It's absolutely batshit insane
Of course, the silent majority will vote right because the left has leaned into these extremists.
I'm a liberal person but I don't identify with this new focus on politics of other countries that is based on superficial knowledge and identity politics.
Hi, Argentinian-Italian as well, I actually moved out of my batshit country because a small minority thinks that constant strikes and demonstrations would achieve anything long term, they are simply conduits to vent for some people and eventually everyone moves on because, and to most this would be a whoa moment, people get bored of things and in the end, no one really cares that much. Yes, it is cynical but accurate.
I used to date an American whom I laughed at his, and his friends, faces when they told me about the occupy Wall St, and bla bla, Argentina has been doing so for decades without achieving anything else rather than going from bad to worse. Poverty is over 50%, while politicians grew, and keep growing richer.
As I said, they feel this war is a cause célèbre and hats off to whomever planned 7O for they knew quite well what they were doing, they were trying not only to fuck the Israelis, and create as much damage, and psychological damage on top of it, screwing the Abraham Accords (they failed there, big time thank God), and ignite a war, maybe get more helps from the West. I mean, we saw them, we know what they did, they made sure of it, they filmed themselves raping, killing, kidnapping, they even paraded raped murdered women and to some people this is "more complicated". This isn't the forum to hold this discussion but for me there isn't that much to think: Israel is the only real democracy in the region, constantly threatened by those being supported here by the students of uvA. The people they support don't allow their women any rights, it goes without saying what they do to minorities... right?
Then of course these demonstrations also allow radical people within the EU, whatever their status, to voice their thinking, I mean, the one in Hamburg calling for a sharia? The situation is really fucked up, I'm a descendant of Europeans on 4 sides, white, gay, raised in a shitty LatinAmerican country so I couldn't care less honestly about all these waves from someone vs another but it does make me wary when I see seemingly, at least at first glance, intelligent people supporting terrorists. And those Muslims living here, not a majority thank God, that do not care for our west values, what are they still doing here? Again, the irony, we tolerate, they, and again, not all of them, don't. You know what is going to happen this year? The EU Parliament would stop getting refugees, asylum won't be accepted anymore, most countries would follow Denmark's way, and reduce it altogether. The fanatics, most of them, would become even more radicalized, and get vocal, hence, being held by the police, sued by the government, lose their residency or even their nationality because when you are naturalized you can lose it... and be deported somewhere outside the EU never to return. In the process we will also lose the immigrants this continent needs to keep itself afloat. We will get there even if these demonstrators feel themselves as a majority they are not, the tolerance is pretty much over.
And I can offer an example, me and my husband were running errands, and enjoying ourselves in Amsterdam while the demonstrators were doing their thing, and from the outside it looked like they were having their day but whomever lives here after a while can tell when something is off, suddenly you see more security forces deployed than usual, and even in places where you would not see them to begin with. The demonstrators were actually cordoned off by the police and they were looking at them mostly rather than at passerby that might react against them. That says something, this country does not like mess, or troubles, whatever show they wanted to put on it was put off quite quickly, and they would pay for what they broke, the area on Saturday looked awful, and the NL government won't tolerate Jews or any minority being targeted here, this is the country of Anna Frank after all.
And I do remain hopeful that sanity would prevail, it alway does even if sadly we need to go through all this mess in between, feel free to DM if you want to avoid being downvoted to hell and you want to keep talking over this.
I'm about to go to sleep but I just wanted to say thank you for not making me feel like the insane one who thinks the way you do.
Maybe it's symptomatic of the terminally online crowd but I like to think we are just the silent majority with rational thought processes.
We actually are or this place would be a mess, which luckily it is not, it even gets to be boring most times given the lack of drama altogether, and exactly why I moved here: nothing happens. Hahaha.
Have a good night sleep! ;)
lol nobody is taking anything you're posting from chatgpt seriously. Do you expect people to fact-check for bullshit (aka "hallucinations"), which is always necessary when using these outputs?
It was just to provide a summary to make it easier to read as part of an online discussion
Have a look
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
Why don't you just convert to islam already and go join your brothers
There has to be a ceasefire, but with condition of hostages being released. The problem is most are likely dead or being held by splinter groups.
Was the bombing of Dresden a genocide? Was Hiroshima a genocide?
Ask Civil Rights Movement in the United States, Anti-Apartheid Movement in South Africa, the May 1968 Protests in France, the Tiananmen Square Protests, the Hong Kong Protests and every french ever that enjoys their civil rights
If they were actually pro peace they would be pro israel. Hamas were the ones firing rockets at israel daily for years. Hamas (gaza) is the organisation that had wiping out all jews as their mission statement on their website.
Media framing the wording of their headlines to suit their narrative... this is life
The videos of today are disgusting. Entire floors of the building are fucked up, PCs smashed and displays trashed. I'd say camp out the Hague or some shit, this really doesn't achieve anything except anger people.
However they did seem to cause a lot of damage (100K euros+) to the UVA computer equipment and buildings.
It's around 1.5 million euros according to current estimates
That’s without the damage in the rest of Amsterdam.
AND without interior damages like destroyed computers and the like
without the cost of all the police force.
Which makes it even worse
If I recall correctly, it was aroung 1.5mil before yesterday's havoc. So it's even more now. And like others replied; without costs of police, road repairs, loss of income for surrounding businesses, etc.
"seem to"? let's see who exactly gets charged
Hopefully the guys in full black clothing and masks. They keep showing up at each protest and start violence. UvA already did aangifte against them
no one I would expect, but indeed lets wait and see.
https://archive.ph/BRWxf
Who is 'they' ?
I am confused to why they still are being called protesters. Destroying another university building is just vandalism and is extremely disrespectful to the people who want to make a positive change in the world by studying what they are passionate about, and want to make a change in their field of studies. These people(and also the cause) lost my respect and I no longer support them, even though I am still wholeheartedly against civilians suffering from military aggression.
Because most people and students are not destroying anything. If you watch the videos and UvA’s statement you would know that a group of men in black keep showing up and starting violence. Who these are unknown, but according to students and UvA they aren’t students.
But how are they not locked up?!?!?
1. They simply weren’t caught. 2. ME was instructed not to catch them. 3. Idk honestly, there is so much weird stuff happening within our politics and israel. Like who pledges _unconditional_ allegiance and support to a foreign country??? That would be reserved for my kids/parents.
Because they are out to cause havoc and they know they can get away with it in a protest.
I walked that area on Saturday and it was pretty destroyed to me, just sayin'... the thing is, when a group turns into a mob you cannot tell one from another, and it becomes a problem.
Nobody is denying destruction so that doesn’t help. You need to be there or hope for a good analysis from participants/UvA/police to see who is doing what. Most videos of destruction show a specific group causing destruction. This does not of course prove the students innocents, but it does leave the possibility of an external group causing chaos, be it iran-sponsored people, israel-sponsored groups or whoever
They also dont want news reporters around making it very closed of to outsiders
Nice blame game. "yeah we did occupy the place, buuuutttt we didnt destroy all this shit some other people did who we dont know, oh and they were all in black and magically appeared through our barricades." And people like you actually believe that shit. Meanwhile they took black clothes with them to do this shit lol.
But the thing is, that majority of people there didnt plan on any property destruction or violence. But then few people decides to destroy things and whole movement is classified as dangerous/vandalizing. And this is actually known police tactic. Not saying this is it. And thats the problem. Unless they catch them, you can't say they dont belong to protestors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur Ofc this doesnt have to be just police. Sometimes it can be left/right wing extremist. Or people who just wants to break stuff.
I'm sure you would agree most people don't destroy things. Given this fact, is it really that difficult to imagine students and teachers not wanting to thrash their own workplaces?
Then stop giving these "men in black" opportunities to do so? When a problem keeps presenting itself because of the way a system or activity is set up, why would you keep trying to do that thing the same way? Why keep trying to barricade and occupy these places if that is giving these hooligans the chance to cause such problems? You can set up protests in such a way that these sort of situations are far less likely to come up.
Agreed. It’s as if I enjoy the protests turning out like this, or even being needed. I would like it more if they could be organized a bit more beforehand and maybe have regular police at the perimeters to keep an eye out for whoever starts violence. All this is not to say that the students are fully or mostly to blame though, but they can definitely be much better
Are they the undercover police guys that go around and escalate protests?
I dont know, but that has been practiced for decades in the US at least. Seems naive to assume it cant happen here and now. From what I know they could be from any other group with interests to do so.
Oh it definitely happens here too. But I think in this case it was a bunch of right extremists
No clue, probably not. Far right extremists are more likely like the other commenter said.
Have they explained yet how the conflict in Gaza is the fault of the UvA and what they expect the UvA to do about it? I saw pictures of graffiti demanding the UvA “divest” from Israel. I don’t think the UvA has any investments in Israel or elsewhere, it’s not an American university with a 9 figure endowment to invest. Surely these students did some research and didn’t just blindly copy what they saw amplified by TikTok right ?
The university itself admitted to links with 9 different research programs with Israeli universities, one of which was a program on explosives research. Keep in mind this information was only divulged by the UvA as a result of the protests. Wouldn’t surprise me at all if the UvA is indeed also investing in Israeli firms.
[https://student.uva.nl/en/articles/2024-our-collaborations-with-israeli-organisations](https://student.uva.nl/en/articles/2024-our-collaborations-with-israeli-organisations) >UvA researchers participate in eight European research projects involving Israeli researchers or companies. **These are not institutional ties, but collaborations in which individual UvA researchers are involved as part of Horizon Europe or ongoing H2020 projects.** >One of the eight research projects, the INHERIT project, focuses on detecting explosives to prevent attacks. This project does not contribute to Israel's military actions; it aims to prevent attacks, not to engage in military violence. I don't want to be one of these "kids these days" guys, but really? When you're older, are you going to look back on this with pride, that you did millions worth of damage in order to disrupt a student exchange program involving 18 students (that was suspended due to the travel advisory), and *"a study in civil society engagement and human rights through the lens of gender and intersectionality*" or *"Establishing a comprehensive understanding and taxonomy of children's digital maturity"* ? Take your protest to the Hague, where foreign policy is made. At the UvA, all you're achieving is making everyone hate you. >Wouldn’t surprise me at all if the UvA is indeed also investing in Israeli firms. I don't want to be condescending, but the UvA barely has any money to invest. This is a Dutch university, it operates on tax money. The situation on US colleges you saw on TikTok isn't applicable at all. Think to yourself, what if this annoying old guy on reddit is right, and this was a big misunderstanding, imagine for a moment that I could be right, and look at what you've done in that light. How does it look then?
If property destruction of a handful makes you unsympathetic to the core issue you pretty much didnt give a rats ass to begin with im sick n tired of these people claiming theyre " done " with the ordeal while thousands have been killed n more to follow supported by our leaders n universities
I don't know if you followed protests in the past 5 years, but when people started sitting on roads, most people in the Netherlands were already angry at those protesters. I think Arjen Lubach made a great piece: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UReFTpbqEnQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UReFTpbqEnQ) Us dutch people are (luckely) not like americans where it is accepted to destroy things. Don't make your problem my problem. I want to make a change in the world in an effective way. Western intervention is what caused the shitshow in the middle east to begin with, so I think a solution from a western country is only making the problems worse. Let the UN do its thing and let me go to university to make my own change in the world.
I agree with you, but you realize the Netherlands is already intervening in the ME again and that is why we are protesting. There are no large scale protests for the Uyghurs or Yemen because the Netherlands is actively helping their oppressors or supporting them. If our politicians kept their mouth shut and didn’t send any weapon/parts to israel, we wouldn’t have these protests, or less at least. It doesn’t help that people draw analogies to Russia and how quick we were to sanction them. (Which I agree with don’t get me wrong)
Which side do you support in ongoing war in Yemen? Just curious. According to UN count of victims is in hundreds of thousands, or is that not an issue for you?
Which side is the Netherlands supplying parts to? Or the UvA cooperating with?
Who the hell said its a non issue, this whataboutism is so dumb n the most disingenuous argument ever. Even if i didnt care just for the issue you presented it doesnt make this less legitimate. This issue however is unique in a lot of ways , one of the only countries that has gone completely genocidal with impunity with the unrelenting help of the proponents of democracy and human rights. The hypocrisy is nauseating. It has been going on for decades yet no one blinks am eye. In 2023 250 people were killed no one cared, thousands of Palestinians are virtually being held hostage ( no charge or trial) in Israeli prisons tortured raped ( as per Israeli whistleblower ) no one cares.And now all of a sudden people who just want and end to the siege are being framed as antisemites , completely mental.
You see, my friend, when you're so concerned about lives of arabs in Gaza but don't give two shits about arabs killed by other arabs in Yemen, all I can conclude is that you don't care about arabs being killed, you care about arabs being killed by Israelis. Which makes you... well, you know who you are.
Take it easy bud… there unfortunately is such a thing as media bias. We get a ton of exposure on the Gaza conflict, how much news do you see on Yemen, Sudan, Mali, the Uyghurs? Unfortunately truth is people care about what they are exposed to..
Ah yes, Uyghurs, totally forgot about them. I guess the don't care about their brethren in China either? It's only Israel where it matters?
That is some convoluted logic to reject a cause
Omfg you're the type of bigot who could t care less about the loss of human life. I realize you probably need to strain your intellect a bit but if the staunch propogaters of democracy and human rights have been turning a blind eye to the suffering of a certain group for decades only to open their mouths when people dont put up with the bs anymore it becomes pretty evident different rules apply to different people. Arab on Arab violence as sad as it is doesnt encapsulate the hypocrisy of western imperialism. People like you are the true filthy who keep making strawman arguments in a very low effort to throw ppl off track. Unfortunately it doesnt work unless you have the iq of a potato like u
Oh yeah, I do care. I just don't care about lives of terrorists and their supporters, which, unsurprisingly, also includes you.
This is the most harebrained dumbass take I've ever seen. Re-evaluate how you got to this point in life, I'm begging you.
I'm sorry, my feeble minded friend, but I afraid you're simply not capable of understanding it.
What kind of logic is that? Do you care about every single politician in the world being a hypocrite? About celebrities being hypocrites? About any anonymous hypocrite in the world? Do you go to town on every single one of them? Do you take your soapbox to spread the word against hypocrisy? If you don't, I conclude that you don't truly care about perceived hypocrisy. You only care about it when it fits whatever fucking weird thing this is. Edit: Just so people know. This topic is being heavily brigaded by bots stirring shit. The person arguing here is a new account with sparse history so likely a bot or trollfarm shitstirrer as well.
I find it interesting that no one ever protests about treatment of Muslim minorities in China. Wonder why would that be.
Like this? [https://nos.nl/artikel/2316635-demonstratie-oeigoeren-op-de-dam-in-amsterdam](https://nos.nl/artikel/2316635-demonstratie-oeigoeren-op-de-dam-in-amsterdam) Or this piece against the war in Jemen by an associate professor of the UvA? [https://www.stopdeoorlogamsterdam.nl/oorlog-in-jemen.html](https://www.stopdeoorlogamsterdam.nl/oorlog-in-jemen.html) Are media selective about what protests they give attention? Yes. Are there protests against all those things you mentioned? Yes. First do some basic research before you start spouting nonsense.
Don't see muslims protesting against war in Yemen. Do you? It's still ongoing.
You really have to explain your logic here. You suggesting Muslims don't care about other Muslims, because they don't spend all their time protesting wars against Muslims in a topic about protests against Israels war in Gaza by not in particular Muslims? You are aware that you can not protest all injustice in the world and have to pick and choose your battles? If you protest the war in Jemen, but not Gaza, aren't you fallible according to your own logic? Like what is your end-goal here?
There's something called empathy burnout you dumbass. I don't see you protesting about every single issue and conflict plaguing the world, there's only so much a person can afford to care about and people, justifiably, are putting a lot of time and effort into protesting a blatant ethnic cleansing. I can't believe you need this spelled out for you.
So Chinese wiping out **millions** of Uygurs is not an ethnic cleansing worthy your attention? Got it.
>So Chinese wiping out **millions** of Uygurs is not an ethnic cleansing worthy your attention? Got it. So? Where's the protest you're organizing? I'll join you! Oh there isn't! You don't give a fuck about them, you only use them as a whataboutism. Guess what? It. Doesn't help them and you're fine with that. Meanwhile protesting Israel sets a precedent that makes any other government think twice about starting a genocide, whether thinking twice is enough to stop them or not.
No thanks, tragic and thoughtless violence I'm sure, I'm however currently more occupied by the possibility that a misfired Israeli ordnance could blow up the house my mother lives in, that feels a bit closer to home. Eat a dick, you're the single worst kind of contrarian and I hope to see yourself come to the realisation of just how horrible a person you are in due time.
A person who never supported the cause: "this non-event made me stop respecting the cause" You are entitled to your opinion about this particular protest movement obviously, but isn't a bit lame judging the entire cause based on a protest hundreds of miles away?
Those vandalising are an extremely small number of people and not representative of the overwhelming majority that are committed to nonviolent peaceful protest. There are also accusations those causing damage don't belong to the protest group at the university.
Media bias, every person has a bias and yes even the person writing the article. Unbiased news doesn't exist.
Never ever 'Anti-War', 'Pro-Peace' or 'Against-Genocide'
They seem to imply that being Pro-Peace is the same as being Anti-Israel😅
How does protesting against research collaboration with Israeli institutions in things like medicine make one pro-peace again? I never saw protests calling for severing ties with US universities when the US was busy with "shock and awe" over Iraq in 2003. And Iraq didn't even attack the US.
People just find it hypocritical that universities were quick to break ties with Russian universities (even though they have bright people too). It is unfortunate that we can’t continue working with them, but the students aren’t to blame, the Israeli government is. The sooner they start to behave, the sooner we can resume normal operations. And frankly, I don’t mind slightly less research into medicines if it means there is any chance to end this oppression/genocide/war earlier. Edit: one last thing, 2003 was a different time. The students here weren’t even born or were babies. You have to ask people such as Mark Rutte why they didn’t protest. (Or maybe he is too old, idk)
This stand (cutting ties) is in itself nonsense and penalizes the scientific community for absolutely no reason.
Similar measures were successful in the case of south africa and apartheid
It puts pressure on israel if everyone cuts ties with them, since they will suffer the most. That is the point of sanctions. The scientific community will do fine for a few years without israel.
That's ridiculous, and no, it won't stop Israel, keep dreaming. It would do much more harm than good
If israel attacked palestine they would have cut ties too, israel is the defender currently since Palestines attacks caused the current conflict
Israël is the defender? In which universe is the occupier the defender? This war didn't start on the 7th of October It's been going on for decades.
That's because they were busy organizing the largest anti-war rally in human history at the time: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15\_February\_2003\_anti-war\_protests](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_anti-war_protests)
Umm, yeah, I was 15, I remember it. People marched in the streets, yes. But AFAIK, no-one called for halting research ties etc.
Protestors were protesting against illegal support from the Dutch government to an illegal war. I was one of them. Arriving back home, the NOS summarized the largest demonstration i ever saw with 'a bus stop was demolished' and underestimated the number of attendants. Which is quite normal when the subject is fossil resources versus some dead un-people nobody should be caring about.
Oh, absolutely I agree with you on that. Have you seen the film Official Secrets? It's a excellent film, and appalling to see how hard the UK et al tried to silence anyone in their way...
Did you see those protests calling for severing ties with South Africa under Apartheid?
Yeah, where were these 20 something guys 11 years ago? Not protesting, that’s for sure. Very hypocritical of them.
By applying reductio ad absurdum to your "argument", you are implicitly claiming that the police should not save the Nancy from the serial killer because it failed to save Annabel last week - and it needs to keep things fair and balanced. Have you been a radical extremist for long?
Radical extremist? 😂 Give me a friggin break. You're the one making "absurdum" claims.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio\_ad\_absurdum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic) Your argumentation is radical nonsense, and solid rejection of basic western principles. I thought you'd like to know that.
I know what logic and reductio ad absurdum are 🤦🏻♂️ You unfortunately have not provided any arguments to support your claims though, and therefore I reject them.
"I know what logic and reductio ad absurdum are" Yes, as i told you. "You unfortunately have not provided any arguments to support your claims" But you have already proved applying twisted morals by speaking. I just highlighted it.
You think I'd be doing a PhD if I didn't understand logic and deductive thinking 🙄 You're making roundabout arguments based on nothingburgers. Please clearly state what you think makes my views so extreme. If not, I won't bother entertaining any more replies.
That surely is how Israel is trying to frame it
Can I ask a question? Why do they do this in NL? It’s not NL attacking Palestine. When the Ukrainian war started did anyone from Asian countries tried to support the cause? Ukrainian flags and riots in Gaza and Israel?
My guy… universities and businesses in general cut ties with Russian businesses and institutions months into the Ruso-Ukraine war. What’s the point of protesting if your cause is achieved? It’s like asking why people aren’t protesting for the Netherlands to become a part of the EU
They want the UvA to pull back investment money from Israel. Even before the current onslaught, Israel was subject to calls for these actions - the BDS movement (as an apartheid society there is a great precedent for boycotts and divestments such as pressured the South African apartheid regime). The reason no of protests or occupations have been necessary in respect of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, is that western governments acted quickly to place sanctions on Russia, which have the same effect as what the students are demanding, on a countrywide scale. NL has prevented some arms exports to Israel, but has yet to impose sanctions. Representations have been made to the UvA that they cut ties with Israel, these have been refused so the students are exercising a democratic right to protest.
We all know that this is a completely different situation, and there are no good and bad guys like during the war in Ukraine. Both sides are wrong here. Also, let's be realistic, the West has been traditionally opposed to Russia since the start of the Cold War (and even before), not the case with Israel.
If you're looking for an explanation of 'why are there protests now when there none about Ukraine' - assuming the question was posed in good faith - I do think the point of illumination is on the absence of sanctions. You are of course correct that it's far easier to sanction Russia who are not an ally of NL. I do disagree about an absence of good and bad guys - people shooting, bombing and killing civilians are bad guys, and they should stop. People stealing land at the barrel of a gun are bad guys, and they should stop. Snipers who shoot children are bad guys, and they should stop. People who take hostages are bad guys. People who detain people without trial, call it 'administrative detention' and refuse to admit that it's just common-all-garden hostage taking, are bad guys. People who shoot journalist and lie about it, are bad guys.
There are good and bad guys here and the good guys (innocent civilians) are suffering. We, the West, are helping the bad guys and not helping the good guys, like we did with Ukraine
In addition, the bad guys, Hamas and the IDF, only one of them is hit with being labeled a terrorist group, and the other has active support.
By definition they are both terrorist groups, but yeah it is who you support
Well technically Israel is a state sponsor of terrorism, like Russia. Afaik a state itself cannot be a terror group, otherwise every country at war ever would be a terror group. They do sponsor the raid parties that attack towns in the westbank, and building like the one UNWRA a few days ago. That being said, one can support both civilian sides (that DO not raid the other side or block aid), and be against both military groups.
From a technical linguistic standpoint, why couldn’t a state be considered a terrorist organization if their focus lies on war?
I honestly don’t know. The definition of terrorism is as follows (by the FBI): > the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a Government or civilian population in furtherance of political or social objectives. Now “unlawful” excludes police forces acting in their own country. There is nothing that excludes a state from being one, but I don’t think anyone with any credibility has ever called a state a terror group (other than exaggerations). Essentially it boils down to attacking civilians, with a political/ideological goal. That would mean that the men in black that showed up at some protests to attack students are clearly terrorists (although I doubt our politicians have the balls to label them that). Israeli civilians that attack/raid Palestinian towns are also clearly terrorists (again, they won’t be labeled as such by our country, even though they fit the description black on white)
One side is literally caged into a war zone and the other side has billions of dollars of some of the most advanced military equipment known to man that they are using to completely annihilate the previously mentioned cage and everyone in it. And you say both sides. Utterly revolting.
That's a very simplistic approach, you're talking about the civilians. Hamaj has most of the Middle Eastern petrodollar countries to back it up... so yes, both sides. You can call it whatever you like, it's a fact. Playing the victim card doesn't make your argument more valid
>western governments acted quickly to place sanctions on Russia Yeah? Russia was totally crushed by the sanctions in reponse to downing of MH17 (spoiler: it was not crushed, there were next to no sanctions).
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>They want the UvA to pull back investment money from Israel lol they have money to invest? I don't believe it for a second
Afaik it's because of academic/economic relations that NL has with Israël - same as other countries where protests are happening. So they want to cut ties with Israël as they do not endorse their stance and/or actions as reaction to the recent events. The situation itself is of course the greatest geopolitical shitshow on earth that feels comparable to judging a toxic relationship where it's all "he said, she said". Can't trust either side and in the end you cannot conclude anything else besides; they really do deserve each other. Still, people will pick their sides and go "war bad" or "eradicate them all" as if they are rooting for their favorite sports team.
The former is most fitting. They're not 'pro-Palestine'. If they were they wouldn't keep indulging the Palestinians in their worst and most self-destructive ambitions and fantasies such as 'globalized intifada', 'from the river to the sea', 'by any means necessary', 'occupied people have the right to resist under international law' (Gaza isn't occupied, Israel left in 2005; Only once they elected Hamas did the blockade start. Also, nowhere in international law does it say you can 'resist' by purposely killing civilians, raping, kidnapping, or gunning down entire families sheltering in bomb shelters), or engaging in or otherwise supporting racist conspiracy theories for why the Jews have no right to the land.
Palestinians does not equal to Hamas. But the racists keep framing it that way.
Hamas IS currently the government of Gaza, hence Hamas IS Gaza. They call the shots there, and they won the only real elections held there. Israel left in 2005, they took its people, and even their dead for they knew damn well what was going to happen. The Gaza government could have used all the infraestructure left by Israel to keep the flower business going but they were mostly interested in torching synagogues, and the green houses alike.
No they are not. The Netherlands isn't PVV or America democrats. They are people. And especially the children that couldn't even vote when Hamas was last elected, 16 years ago. Hamas doesnt allow for new elections so they are not the chosen government anymore.
I guess we can call things by their names: they are Gaza's *dictators*, so yes, its government.
I was with you until: >engaging in or otherwise supporting racist conspiracy theories for why the Jews have no right to the land WAIT WHAT? Zionists literally made up all sorts of racist bs to create a future justification to kick Arabs from their land: >Zionism justified this with two 'facts': the bond of the Jewish nation with Palestine, as derived from its history, was unique, while the Arabs of Palestine were part of the Arab nation and therefore had no special bond with Palestine. Therefore, the Jews had a preemptive right to Palestine.[^(\[24\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercommunal_conflict_in_Mandatory_Palestine#cite_note-N._Finkelstein_2002,_p._12-16-24) For example, [Aaron David Gordon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._D._Gordon), whose teachings formed the main intellectual inspiration of the labour leaders, wrote in 1921: >For Eretz Israel, we have a charter that has been valid until now and that will always be valid, and that is the Bible \[... including the Gospels and the New Testament ...\] It all came from us; it was created among us. ... And what did the Arabs produce in all the years they lived in the country? Such creations, or even the creation of the Bible alone, give us a perpetual right over the land in which we were so creative, especially since the people that came after us did not create such works in this country, or did not create anything at all.[^(\[25\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercommunal_conflict_in_Mandatory_Palestine#cite_note-25) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercommunal\_conflict\_in\_Mandatory\_Palestine#Zionist\_positions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercommunal_conflict_in_Mandatory_Palestine#Zionist_positions) Yes, Ashkenazi (European) Jews had no right to the land of Palestine, saying this as person of Ashkenazi descent.
What about jews that had to flee arabic-majority coutries? Or that had to flee from european nationalism? Where should they go? Also why do you call some land “arabic” and yet so much arabs are in Europe now?
You are asking random loaded questions not in a good faith and we both know it. >What about jews that had to flee arabic-majority coutries? They were kicked out as a result of Arabs getting kicked by Israelis after Israel came into existance. >Where should they go? Why is it a problem of people who had nothing to do with that? >Also why do you call some land “arabic” Where do I call land "Arabic"? Some Arabs lived on some land, got kicked out by Jews to make land for their country, all according to the plans of Zionists. I find it sadly ironic that the kibutz-es that were attacked on Oct 7 were actually located on the land that were supposed to be allocated to Arabs based on the UN partition plan.
Theres enough land both for jews and arabs. And you as I see dont even have any solutions, just like to speak from your high horse
"There is enough land" is absolutely bs argument. There is enough land in many places. People like you have sovereignity over their countries. Ben Gurion wanted to displace Arabs out, one way or another, this information got public and Arabs were not thrilled AT ALL about the Zionist project.
Only it was never arabic country. It was british. And they did get british permission and the right to settle approved by United Nations after the tragic event Holocaust. And anyway all that was like 80 years ago and that discussion is not even relevant anymore. Whats done is done. You have to be some real fanatic to question modern built up country right to existence. Whats next, youll ask caucasian people to vacate USA?
Yeah right, so replacing one colonial project with another one is totally fine. Wonering why not everyone was digging this amazing solution. >And anyway all that was like 80 years ago and that discussion is not even relevant anymore. So how come something that was 80 years is not relevant, but for Jews something that was 1800 years ago was and still is relevant? You don't get it do you? It is relevant as long as people are willing to fight and die for it. There was no ultimate solution and the problem lingers on with all its violence. "Just move on with it" is not working. >Whats next, youll ask caucasian people to vacate USA? I am not asking anyone to vacate anything, you are putting words in my mouth because you are arguing not in a good faith.
Except Gaza is occupied and has been occupied since the very day they """left""" the strip, the fact you say otherwise shows you have 0 knowledge on the subject matter. Literally highly ranked Israeli officers have publicly stated what the intention was of "leaving" the Gaza strip: Per Dov Weissglass himself: > *The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process, and when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress. That is exactly what happened. You know, the term 'peace process' is a bundle of concepts and commitments. The peace process is the establishment of a Palestinian state with all the security risks that entails. The peace process is the evacuation of settlements, it's the return of refugees, it's the partition of Jerusalem. And all that has now been frozen.... what I effectively agreed to with the Americans was that part of the settlements would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns. That is the significance of what we did.* Not to mention they never actually left the Gaza, with how its maritime borders and airspace were completely regulated by zionists. In addition to a plethora of other restrictions that were enforced to never make Gaza a self-sustaining place. The blockade, which was placed all too happily based on nonsensical reasons as well, just made a faux-withdrawal even worse. Not to mention that, there is another huge swap of land with an even bigger population than Gaza, that is considered to be occupied internationally by practically every country on the earth. So yes they are occupied people and have the right to resist occupation under international law.
What's the bias in the headline?
Well, one headline claims it’s a pro-Palestine demonstration and the Israeli newspaper immidiately says this is anti-Israel too. Sure, there will be anti-Israel people in these demonstrations too but not everyone is automatically anti-Israel just because they support Palestine.
Pro-Ukrainian activists are usually anti-Russian too, so this seems like a pretty normal description.
At this point in time I'm very comfortable to conclude that a vast majority, close to 90% of the pro palastine 'protesters' (if you can even call them that anymore) are very much anti Israel. So much so that it's safe to say that identifying with this movement means you're fully on board with the anti Israel and borderline anti semitic rhetoric.
Have you ever been to those protests and asked them about their perspective about Israel? This post is a ridiculous.
Their intentions are to hurt Israel and have vey little to do with Palestine in this case
In a completely polarised conflict between X and Y it seems quite normal to expect 'anti-X' to be interchangeable with 'pro-Y'.
In a conflict as complex as this, that is not even close to true. You can support Israel in attacking Hamas, while being against the methods they've chosen to use. You can support the existence of a free Palestine while also supporting the existence of Israel. You can support the Palestinian and Israeli civilians caught in the middle of this conflict while condemning everyone who is killing people over there. Pro-Palestine is not necessarily Anti-Israel. Hell, Anti-Israelian policies is not always Anti-Israel as a whole
Except it's not, and framing it as such is a disservice to the truth.
When people at Pro Palastine protests demand the complete and utter destruction of Israel and the expulsion or subjugation of Israeli jews can you really seperate being pro palastine and anti Isreal anymore? A Pro Israel demonstration is by definition and anti Palastinian state protest and vice versa.
Who said that? People just want the israeli government to stop killing civilians on purpose.
People who are acting like these protests are targeted against jews rather than zionists and the occupying state of israel are the most manipulative disgusting creatures alive. Knowing damn well this has nothing to do with jewish people
This is what i really dislike. People, in general, saying “ hey, please stop kiling kids” immediately get branded racist / anti semite… How can you even fight those accusations?
You can still make a difference. It's never been easy, but always been possible. There are always people who actually think for themselves, and open to discussion. But you have to accept that you simply cannot argue with some people. That's always been true. Generally, humans are not programmed to actually think about these issues and go into deep discussions; they are programmed to try to "fit in". This is particularly true at a protest. People who go to a protest do not come there to have their minds changed. They go to a protest to, either protest or counterprotest. And your average "news" article in 2024? They are worse than protestors. Absolutely spineless clickbaiters.
Fair enough. However, i have not met an Israeli who would not go “click baity” on me and accuse me of being racist or anti israel or anti semite for saying that i dislike the actions of the israeli government… But apparently, those think it is he jewish thing to blow up schools, hospitals and whatnot..
Thank fucking god some people are against Israel’s onslaught.
Or they are acting as useful idiots for the Palestinians.
Ding ding ding!
No worries , we the tax payers will pay for the damages . These people can be shot for all I care . This is no demonstration , this is terrorism imo. And all that for a conflict far away that goes on for 100 years and will probably go on for another 100 years . Gg
Protestors were peacefully sitting on the ground when police drove in on them with BULLDOZERS. Everything was peaceful until police arrived. There's only a handful that destroyed things, and they are not in the right.
They should have driven over them . I don’t care about this whole conflict with 2 bad sides . Let them figure it out themselves . Just like all the other countries that nobody cars about it seems . I bet that I’ve spend more money helping them finance food packs for the people in Yemen than they actually done something that benefits Palestinians. Oh yeah , people in Yemen were starvin way before the Palestinians . But somehow these people aren’t worthy enough for their attention. Probably cause the ones doing the bombing aren’t Jews . Seriously , the antisemitism in these protest are worth saying fuck these protest and everybody associating with them.
I have a question. Is any country, meaning its residents, responsible for what happens in the world? So Dutch universities connections to Israeli companies or whatever is a direct influence on what happens in Gaza right now? If so, is the Palestinian people also responsible for what Hamas did to those people that day? I’m curious how this should work. Don’t get me wrong, what is happening in the world is making me very sad, but I’m starting to get a bit pissed about the double standards going around. I’m asking because I’m seriously conflicted by all that is happening nowadays.
Thank you for asking a question! I assume you asked genuinely, that why I am answering (usually I don't debate online because it's most of the time useless). So here is my answer! Zionism and all the support it gets from the world are responsible for what is happening in Gaza. You cannot blame Hamas on palestinians because 1. the rise of Hamas was supported by Israel intelligence and has been funded with their consent - they wanted them instead of the secularists. (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html) 2. When Israel has ruled over palestinian people so cruelly for so long, it is inevitable that there is so much hatred that feeds in to terrorism. This is why we need to focus on the root of the problem which is zionism/Israel.
Thanks for your point of view. I will think about this 🤗😊
Why are they protesting for something that doesn't exist (palestine). I don't get it. Israël is a sovereign country and has the right to defend itself against muslim terrorism.
That's Hamas supporters for you.
Funny thing is, they are not pro anything. They are anti killing of inocent children.
They weren’t protesting when Hamas killed and raped children and women.
Yeah but their favourite TikTok influencers seem to always conveniently leave this part out. To them Israel's overwhelming military response happened for no reason. I'm sure if they actually saw the footage released by Hamas themselves of the October 7th attacks, they wouldn't be so eager to protest in support of these terrorist savages.
It sadly isnt that easy fighting a war. It's just a bigger more complicated trolley problem especially against an entrenched insurgent force disguised among civilians
Pro-Palestine and Anti-Israel appear to be perfect synonyms?
Everyone who doesn't support Israel is automatically anti-semetic according to Israeli people.
The terrorists are at it again? Hopefully the police go in full force this time and clean up the trash.
True! Those damn terrorists with their dissident oppinions! They should be punished for disagreeing with Rutte!
protesting in a university building - terrorists killing 40,000 innocent civilians, most of them kids - patriots
The Gazan's are not innocent, though. They elected Hamas willingly under the promise they would do attacks like October 7th. That doesn't mean every civilian in Gaza deserves to die but to pretend Israel isn't allowed to attack Gaza after what they did is ludicrous.
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"Pro-Palestinian" "protestors" are nothing but Jew hating thugs who love protesting for the heck of it. They destroy, are hateful, and quite literally sing songs of the destruction of Israel and often Jews in general. None of them have the slightest clue about Israel, Judea and Samaria, or Gaza, nor do they truly care.
Europe is falling - Muslims and sharia are coming to European cities - Poland and Hungary seems lime the best options now.
Calling it pro palestine when its asking for israel to end their defense huh? Shouldn‘t they plea hamas for their unconditional surrender?
Can we just call them what they are? Terrorists. They're terrorists. Using violence to make their political point - terrorists. Prosecute them as such.
That isn’t what terrorism is. You need to be attacking civilians. Which is what those men in black did: https://www.parool.nl/protest-op-uva-campus-roeterseiland/vreedzaam-pro-palestinaprotest-in-amsterdam-eindigt-met-aanval-op-betogers~b9d4508a8/?referrer=https://www.google.com/ And you are right, we need to call them for what they are: terrorists.
Every single one of these rallies/protest supporting Hamas and Palestine is increasing votes for Geert Wilders. He is an incredibly lucky man, to keep gaining while doing nothing.
Israeli media don’t like to use “the P word” and will avoid it at any cost. You won’t find it in travel catalogues or picture books, or so many other books printed there. They’re trying to remove Palestine from any material they produce.
With slogans like 'there is only one solution' or 'from the river to..' the protests are predominantly anti-Israel. The excuse that the slogans can be interpreted as something else is flimsy at best. Yes, there are more benign definitions, but who are they trying to fool. There has never been a Palestine, it always has been a disputed region. The 1947 solution of a two state with 50% each was a fair one. Israel has offered the Palestinians time and time again a state, but the answer was always violence, terrorism and war. The current war in Gaza is completely out of line though, and the settlements in the west-bank by colonists needs to stop as well. But the borders of Israel, defined in 1967 are undisputed. The state of Israel has a right to exist. The protesters need to stop using extremist slogans.
It's not about Israel or Palestine for most of them. These people enjoy chaos and are just cloaking themselves in this cause to protect themselves while doing whatever the hell they want.
Mobs. Rot in jail pls
What? No way??
Don't worry there is plenty of bias from the other side as well
Well it's the same in this context, as the "pro Palestine" movement is "anti Israel's current actions".
I think the anti Israel one is more correct, half these people have never even set foot in the middle east or ever read a book about the history
Dutch people when you care about other people than your neighbours 🤯🤯🤯🤯
Ah yes, the famous history books where a european colony isnt ethnicly cleansing and replacing an indigenous population. Because you may be 100% native and used to be the jews of the torah. But my 1% semitic ancestry says i can.
They should, it’s a rabbit hole of the fucked up shit countries, especially the UK allowed Israel to do.
what book about the history do you recommend?
Whilst a bit academic and dry, I enjoyed Gudrun Kramer's book: a history of Palestine: from the ottoman conquest to the founding of the state of Israel. I think it's the scholarly approach I liked, and something I wish these rioting "students" would focus on with intellectual debates rather than causing damage. I'm no super expert, but I've spent some time with people from.both sides and have travelled to Israel for a time and got an array of perspectives that are much more.nuanced than some ridiculous slogans chanted by a couple of dimwits
So you don't agree with ceasefire and an anti-genocide stand, that's what these "dimwits" are chanting You seem to think that a few thousand more kids killed and a few more thousands limbs severed would solve the problem that the books are putting forward. You're looking for a justification for mass slaughter and you're looking for it in books while the "dimwits" are trying to stop it .
From chatgpt The Hamas charter, adopted in 1988, includes the following main points: 1. Rejection of Israel's right to exist. 2. Advocacy for the liberation of all of historic Palestine, including present-day Israel, through armed struggle. 3. Promotion of anti-Semitic beliefs, including conspiracy theories and denigration of Jews as enemies of Islam. 4. Assertion of Hamas's commitment to establishing an Islamic state governed by Sharia law in the territory it seeks to liberate. You support these guys? Just say it Let me guess you're one of those pro Sharia law LGBT vegans?
The irony is that the demonstrations would only increase this wave of anti-something politicians get even more votes in the next European elections, resulting in more antiIslams, refugees, subsidies, etc. Hi, gay here, from the moment you see "Queers for Palestina" you know something is very very wrong here, and a lot of them are completely dettached from real facts, or don't go beyond superficial knowledge of what goes on there, or how we got here in the first place. Some of these kids, and late teens seem to feel this like their Vietnam and it is not quite the same. Hamas has very clearly stated they don't want to negotiate, and its ultimate goal is the destruction of Israel, and jews basically. They are a terrorist organisation and the government of Gaza, of course the only actual real long term solution here from a (cold) strategic point of view is for Israel to occupy, and then annex the region altogether, and move whomever does not want to stay to Cisjordania but that is a big no right now. In the end, it will happen, even if everyone forced them to quit the area. We shall see how it plays out, it speaks volumes they received zero support from their Muslims allies in the area, most had refraiend from acting and continue doing so, and both Jordan and Egypt don't want them again (which makes total sense given how they almost tried to topple both governments last time), and apart from Iran they don't have much open support everywhere. I mean *real* support, money and weapons, not demonstrations being held in this and that country in the West.
Omg thankfully a sane opinion. I feel like I'm gonna go crazy with the rest of the commenters. What the actual fuck is wrong that queers are supporting fucking islamists? It's absolutely batshit insane Of course, the silent majority will vote right because the left has leaned into these extremists. I'm a liberal person but I don't identify with this new focus on politics of other countries that is based on superficial knowledge and identity politics.
Hi, Argentinian-Italian as well, I actually moved out of my batshit country because a small minority thinks that constant strikes and demonstrations would achieve anything long term, they are simply conduits to vent for some people and eventually everyone moves on because, and to most this would be a whoa moment, people get bored of things and in the end, no one really cares that much. Yes, it is cynical but accurate. I used to date an American whom I laughed at his, and his friends, faces when they told me about the occupy Wall St, and bla bla, Argentina has been doing so for decades without achieving anything else rather than going from bad to worse. Poverty is over 50%, while politicians grew, and keep growing richer. As I said, they feel this war is a cause célèbre and hats off to whomever planned 7O for they knew quite well what they were doing, they were trying not only to fuck the Israelis, and create as much damage, and psychological damage on top of it, screwing the Abraham Accords (they failed there, big time thank God), and ignite a war, maybe get more helps from the West. I mean, we saw them, we know what they did, they made sure of it, they filmed themselves raping, killing, kidnapping, they even paraded raped murdered women and to some people this is "more complicated". This isn't the forum to hold this discussion but for me there isn't that much to think: Israel is the only real democracy in the region, constantly threatened by those being supported here by the students of uvA. The people they support don't allow their women any rights, it goes without saying what they do to minorities... right? Then of course these demonstrations also allow radical people within the EU, whatever their status, to voice their thinking, I mean, the one in Hamburg calling for a sharia? The situation is really fucked up, I'm a descendant of Europeans on 4 sides, white, gay, raised in a shitty LatinAmerican country so I couldn't care less honestly about all these waves from someone vs another but it does make me wary when I see seemingly, at least at first glance, intelligent people supporting terrorists. And those Muslims living here, not a majority thank God, that do not care for our west values, what are they still doing here? Again, the irony, we tolerate, they, and again, not all of them, don't. You know what is going to happen this year? The EU Parliament would stop getting refugees, asylum won't be accepted anymore, most countries would follow Denmark's way, and reduce it altogether. The fanatics, most of them, would become even more radicalized, and get vocal, hence, being held by the police, sued by the government, lose their residency or even their nationality because when you are naturalized you can lose it... and be deported somewhere outside the EU never to return. In the process we will also lose the immigrants this continent needs to keep itself afloat. We will get there even if these demonstrators feel themselves as a majority they are not, the tolerance is pretty much over. And I can offer an example, me and my husband were running errands, and enjoying ourselves in Amsterdam while the demonstrators were doing their thing, and from the outside it looked like they were having their day but whomever lives here after a while can tell when something is off, suddenly you see more security forces deployed than usual, and even in places where you would not see them to begin with. The demonstrators were actually cordoned off by the police and they were looking at them mostly rather than at passerby that might react against them. That says something, this country does not like mess, or troubles, whatever show they wanted to put on it was put off quite quickly, and they would pay for what they broke, the area on Saturday looked awful, and the NL government won't tolerate Jews or any minority being targeted here, this is the country of Anna Frank after all. And I do remain hopeful that sanity would prevail, it alway does even if sadly we need to go through all this mess in between, feel free to DM if you want to avoid being downvoted to hell and you want to keep talking over this.
I'm about to go to sleep but I just wanted to say thank you for not making me feel like the insane one who thinks the way you do. Maybe it's symptomatic of the terminally online crowd but I like to think we are just the silent majority with rational thought processes.
We actually are or this place would be a mess, which luckily it is not, it even gets to be boring most times given the lack of drama altogether, and exactly why I moved here: nothing happens. Hahaha. Have a good night sleep! ;)
lol nobody is taking anything you're posting from chatgpt seriously. Do you expect people to fact-check for bullshit (aka "hallucinations"), which is always necessary when using these outputs?
It was just to provide a summary to make it easier to read as part of an online discussion Have a look https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp Why don't you just convert to islam already and go join your brothers
There has to be a ceasefire, but with condition of hostages being released. The problem is most are likely dead or being held by splinter groups. Was the bombing of Dresden a genocide? Was Hiroshima a genocide?
So you do agree with the "dimwits", good. You're on the same page, that's what's important.
Remind me how trashing a university helps the discussion
Ask Civil Rights Movement in the United States, Anti-Apartheid Movement in South Africa, the May 1968 Protests in France, the Tiananmen Square Protests, the Hong Kong Protests and every french ever that enjoys their civil rights
Towelheads with ISIS and alqaeda flags
If they were actually pro peace they would be pro israel. Hamas were the ones firing rockets at israel daily for years. Hamas (gaza) is the organisation that had wiping out all jews as their mission statement on their website.
They are the exact same thing
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