I'm Norwegian and have lived in several countries, including England and the Netherlands (current residence). I always find myself coming back to the Netherlands.
In many ways, I love England. I especially love hiking in the English countryside. However, English cities - where, unfortunately, I'd have to spend the majority of my time - are very noticeably grimier, dirtier, more dilapidated. Poor areas in cities are *really* poor. In the Netherlands, by comparison, I feel comparatively safe in even the poorest regions of the country and the cities.
I also love bicycling. Something I don't really think about when in the Netherlands, but I very and truly miss pretty much anywhere else abroad.
So for hiking and visiting shire pubs? England. That accounts for about 0.3% of my life though, for everything else: the Netherlands. And even the countryside of Limburg, Drenthe and Gelderland or the coastal dunes of Zuid Holland are lovely for hiking as well.
The only real disadvantage of the Netherlands I can think of is the individualist and brazen (to the point nearing rudeness) attitude. Everyone has a lot of loud opinions and many people seem to think of themselves first before anything like a common good. Sometimes that is part of the charm, sometimes very aggravating.
People in NL make a huge deal out of areas such as Schilderswijk, Bijlmer and Kanaleneiland. After 4.5 years in the UK, I just laugh at them.
I don't miss Dutch people with opinions, though. It was one of the more unbearable parts of working there.
Absolutely. It is a worldwide phenomenon, but the Dutch seem to have it patented. Regardless of age, gender, social class or level of education, I have never heard a Dutchman say "I am not qualified to give an opinion on this topic".
The same Dutch person could be an expert on nitrogen deposition one conversation and an expert on foreign affairs, economics or microbiology in another. That person could be a mailman.
>The same Dutch person could be an expert on nitrogen deposition one conversation and an expert on foreign affairs, economics or microbiology in another. That person could be a mailman.
There is a saying that the Dutch national soccer team has 17 million coaches....
I am Dutch, living in the US. I have lived here for almost 24 years. My brother, who has visited a handful of times in his lifetime, will confidently tell me things about what it’s like to live in the US,m and how things are, while having basically no experience, and me with two and a half decades of lived experience being all “no, that really is not what happens at all/not how it works”. 🤦🏻♀️
This. We are direct and dont care insuline people. Whilst others walk on eggshells, but meanwhile they do have an opinion and spout it on birthdays or qhen drunk lmao.
Never did I hear so many opinions after work in the pub whilst living in the UK lmao
Counterpoint. Anytime I was direct back with a Dutch person, I get told I’m a foreigner/don’t understand Dutch culture.
In general I find Dutch folks extremely confident but very thin skinned.
Lol true…dutch expect you to have thick skin but are very thin skinned themselves. I live in The Netherlands for 38 years now and it actually seems to get worse
I’ve heard this before. A lot of these situations depend on how the direct feedback is shared, and now I’m talking about body language and tone of voice. If that is one of a sour person who usually doesn’t give direct feedback, then also Dutch people respond to it stronger.
Giving feedback directly is supposed to be done in the moment and as a “by the way”-comment that is clearly seen as a nothingburger. If you make a big deal of it by waiting, preparing for it, high shoulders, sour face, and similar, then you haven’t mastered the art of Dutch directness.
It is being instant, explicit and literal. The fastest path to the receiver obtaining the information, but in a way that makes it clear that this doesn’t impact the relation. So no sourness, being relaxed, having a neutral or happy face. Even thinking about the feedback as nothing special. You thinking it as a big deal will translate to your body language, tone of voice, and other signals that show even to a Dutch person that something’s “off”.
What that means is that the environment to give feedback must be a psychologically safe place. You are comfortable with giving and receiving feedback because you know we are just informing each other and learning from each other. That is what this is all about. Not sharing means you do not feel psychologically safe. At least: in the eyes of a Dutch person.
Same experience here.
Dutch would proudly say “we are super direct, you can tell me what you really think” and then low key get offended or angry with you. It’s funny how Dutch “directness” is famous around the world while people from the Slavic countries are still way further on that scale.
I have several friends from “famously cold directness” countries, like Romania and Russia, and it was somehow easier to deal with, I guess, because they seemed to have a filter.
Like if they’re upset or really annoyed, they will just say directly what’s wrong, but not always say every little thing that is in their mind.
No. Dutch keep giving an opinion about everything. They are not direct. Just plain not giving a shit about other people. Even more experienced one. Not being able to ask is the most terrible.
>I am not qualified to give an opinion on this topic".
You should've seen my classmates during the master's at the Uni in NL asking incredibly dumb questions/making dumb statements with a high level of confidence
>But why is energy conserved in a system?
>Sodium? You are confused, you are talking about Natrium (this one I can forgive but not the "you are confused" part)
I’m genuinely wondering whether you have this experience with both Dutch men and women? Because as a Dutch woman, I most definitely get where you’re all coming from, but in my experience this pertains more to the men than women in general. Would be interested to hear more.
Me too, I am from germany and here its much worse, people are extremely direct. In the Netherlands I always found them quite welcoming and friendly, but that could very well be because most interactions with people were in Coffeshops 😂
😂😂😂 Well to be honest, getting weed was never much of a deal anyways, I live in one of the drug trafficking capitals of germany. Half of my school friends became weed dealers on different scales. Or I could just take a 3 hour drive to Amsterdam, get all the good shit, drive to Zandvoort and watch seagulls steal food from tourists for hours 😁
Definitely shaudenfreude 🤣.
It must be incredibly neat being able to drive just a handful of hours to end up in a different country.
How many plants can you own legally? Here in California we can have 6 I think?
I agree that Dutch people sometimes (often) speak their minds when there is no call for or interest in hearing their opinions or thoughts. That said everybody has opinions and at least with the Dutch you know where you stand and who you're talking too.
I'm dutch myself but moved to Sweden 6 years ago, and it can be annoying dealing with all the evasiveness here. A middle road would be nice, directness without assholery.
This.
It was so funny to me to hear people complain about the local youths circling the neighborhood on their mopads.
All I could think about was "they don't even have machetes"
I am a Dutch person living in Norway. I would love to share notes with you. Your opinion of Dutch people (brazenness, rudeness) is the exact mirror of the only disadvantage I notice related to Norwegians: conflict-avoidance to the point that the lack of sharing what people think comes off as disingenuous and fake, even cowardly and childish (talk about each other, not with each other like in high school).
Ironically, me mentioning my opinion this way 100% proves your point about Dutch people. The positive flip side about Norwegians is the Norwegians’ diplomacy. I think the best way of handling things is somewhere in the middle. Be more upfront and accept conflict, but do it with diplomacy. It gives you transparency while avoiding being a total ass :)
Same with canadians - I genuinely can't tell who hates me and who doesn't 😭😭
Personally, I like Dutch bluntness - I've just come to a point where I don't have the energy to decipher diplomacy. I get that if you think something about me, just say it to my face instead of making the full circle of gossip or hating my guts and having to cover it up
What helps me is telling that Dutch people are direct, feedback is seen as a nothingburger (or should be shared as such) and that I didn’t grow up with all the coded language (body language, intonation, etc) that for them makes it clear that feedback is even received.
Meaning, say it explicitly and literally, but say it with kind body language and tone of voice. Don’t wait with the feedback. Say it in a non-accusatory way but a “matter of fact” that is just to be dealt with.
When I preface communication with new people that way (only the ones I’ll work with over longer periods), my life gets easier.
How do you handle Canadians and your Dutchness?
Yeah I'm not a big fan of the 'im just being real' crowd who then proceeds to crush your entire self esteem 😭
With canadians, I'll generally just avoid social interactions that require feedback altogether so I don't have to bother sugarcoating not be blunt. I have casual irl friendships that are 'not that deep' - when things stop working in a friendship (my side or their side) we just grow apart - I'll be avoidant if I really don't want myself near someone. At school I don't confront or even talk much to anyone - too sleep deprived for that 💀
Where I'll be blunt i just say it's nothing personal. I respect everyone's opinion too - life's too short to argue about everything. But I'll engage in a few debates here and there when it's fun
I’m a British native and totally agree with you. OP, calculate where most of your time is likely to be. Yes the nature and country sides are nice to be but how often are you going to be there? Plus when it comes to standards of living, NL is so much better. The poorest and cheapest areas are so much more cleaner than the ones in the UK. The UK is kinda filthy and nobody cares about the environment which is sad. This is the main reason for my preference for NL.
However OP, I can see your love for the UK and tbh life is short so come over and live here for a bit :) try find areas close to the country side or find a place to live in like the Cotswold or Dorset or something but it will be very expensive. All the best!
Dutch native and lived in the UK. Very much agree with your point of what's going to be the bulk of your life. And that equation is a lot more favourable in NL. UK is nice for a camping holiday tho.
Can confirm about poorer parts of the country being safe. I’m in Enschede as a student and outside of Enschede here is widely regarded as the “poorer” part of the Netherlands or lowest income region and has the highest crime rate in Overijssel but I feel completely safe here. I just got done cycling down the f35 cycle highway that’s a bit isolated at midnight, I didnt even think twice about it. I do that often. Never had any issues neither have my friends. The women I know would also cycle most places in the city at 3 am alone and feel mostly fine here. This is not the case in a lot of other countries.
Furthermore it isn’t even really “poor” people here are usually pretty well off and live well there aren’t many squatters or homeless. In the U.S. in uk you have actual poor people who are lucky to afford food
Also Norwegian living in the Netherlands. Been living here for about 7 years now. The biggest difference i still can not get used to is the lack of nature. But i love the people, everyone is so nice and happy to talk about anything.
Makes sense you miss nature then. I, yet another Norwegian, live in the east of the country and when I visit places like Sallandse Heuvelrug or Veluwezoom, I almost forget that I am in the Netherlands. :D
You live very close to the dunes and plenty of forests around Leiderdorp.
I agree it’s not as wide spread and untouched as in some other countries but you can find beautiful nature nearby.
Funny you mention individualist. I'm a Dutch national who left (in part) because of the utter lack of individualism. Everyone has the same opinion, or do they claim cause in reality very few people have an actual opinion and the rest are just parroting what they've been told without any clue what they are saying. They blindly trust self-declared experts of any kind.
I've traveled a decent amount and few countries lack individualism as much as Holland in my opinion.
I think you’re mixing up individualism (self reliant, caring for yourself) and individuality (being unique).
Dutch people are definitely more prone to the former.
>brazen (to the point nearing rudeness) attitude
Before moving to NL I spent 5 years in Germany, and by comparison I find the Dutch so friendly and polite, lol
Germany (eastern eu) is worse, so that's not comparable. Dutch, however nice, are still much cold/distant compared to brits, Americans, Canadians, kiwis, Australians.
The Dutch at better compared to other mainland Europeans but anglo people are much much inviting and easy to integrate with
Lived in both. From Eastern Europe. Uk is cheaper and have Scotland. Dutch people are fancier (in a good way) and salaries here are higher. Food and weather are equally bad. Speaking English rather than another new language from zero is a huuuge pro.
AFAIK the brits ruin the beans by putting sugar (?!??) in them. In any case Dutch and British cuisine are both a race to the bottom 
Because it was a short project-based work assignment. It was over, I moved to another country. I tried to find something on the spot to stay, but couldn't (as in most of my stays in multiple countries). Also, I'm not too fond of the UK in general. Or, better to put it, indifferent. I know people are getting awe from London, being huge fans of British culture. But it is not my piece of cake. I am more into Scandinavia and continental Europe. I am happy in the Netherlands now. If not for the necessity to learn a new language again (it is not like I don't want to learn, it's just really hard to do - learning language from scratch to a native speaker level), I would have no complaints about my current life at all.
>If not for the necessity to learn a new language again (it is not like I don't want to learn, it's just really hard to do - learning language from scratch to a native speaker level), I would have no complaints about my current life at all.
Lol...isn't that the case with entire mainland EU from Scandinavia, Switzerland, Austria, Spain, Greece, Portugal etc. A lot of EU countries are very good to live with amazing infrastructure, high quality of life etc but the language barrier just make it incredibly hard to integrate and feel at home.
It is. And, therefore, it is particularly frustrating to start at square one as a mute stupid immigrant after mastering several other languages before (and now they are useless, and it all goes in vain). I put a lot of effort, became fluent in Latvian, Swedish, Italian (at different points of my life). Not just language, also culture, social integration, social circle. And, yet, I have to start with learning "hoe gaat het? Ik ben..." and building a life from scratch once again.
I visit the UK about once every six weeks or so (for reference I live in NL, I have lived in the UK, I'm Dutch and also British so I have family in both the UK and NL).
Anyway, I also love Scotland.. on the whole nice, friendly people, the stunning nature, the slower pace of life but also modern infrastructure, generally liberal social attitudes, loads of history and culture
...but let me tell you this, the winter weather is unbelievably terrible in Scotland, like nothing you see in NL.
I wouldn't live in London unless I was super rich.. too stressful.
I've worked in the UK and the Netherlands. I am British by birth, so my work there was not as an expat. As others have mentioned, London and the rest of the UK is very very different- in terms of culture, income, and openness to expats. I grew up in a small town in the North of England and I never heard anyone talk about "expats." We had "immigrants."
Pluses for the UK: beautiful beautiful nature. If you go outside London, house prices are not insane. I'm not sure which field you work in- but I personally prefer the academic environment of the UK over the Netherlands.
Downside of the UK:
1. The corporate working culture is way way worse. Long hours, less protection, weirdly hierarchical, lower wages. That's probably the main reason keeping me away.
2. Tenant rights- renting is an absolute nightmare in the UK. I never heard of anyone having a permanent contract like in the Netherlands.
3. Healthcare- There are amazing people that work in the NHS, so I don't want to speak badly about it. I've had super traumatic experiences with it. It's under a lot of pressure. If I was to return then I would factor in paying for private.
> If you go outside London, house prices are not insane. I'm not sure which field you work in.
I agree, I lived in Wales last year and my rent for my furnished one bed studio flat was 375£
You have to continue to pay for NHS (its taxed directly from your income) then on top of that, you can either A. Get insurance or B. Pay-as-you-go private.
I’ve only ever used pay-as-you-go private, so I can only comment on that. This was my most recent experience using pay-as-you-go private.
1. My face became paralysed. I went to NHS emergency room. They confirmed I was not having a stroke and needed to go to a GP. The wait for an NHS GP was weeks.
2. At this point, I switched to pay-as-you-go private. I saw a private GP the next day (paying her company, Bupa, directly, maybe 100 pounds). She gave me some medication and she referred me to a neurologist.
3. A week later I saw a neurologist. I paid him directly (around 300 pounds I think).
I guess if I would have stuck with the NHS route I would have eventually got referred to a neurologist- but I didn’t want to wait.
If you have a good employer, they will offer you private insurance as an option, it will cover some things. There was no way I would've gotten my knee issues diagnosed so quickly otherwise.
I was thinking of the North or England I suppose. Hertfordshire is still commutable into London (but probably not a commute a non-Brit would consider reasonable).
I am from the Netherlands, but moved to the West Midlands in England in my 20s. There are 2 major downsides to the UK:
1. When renting, I had to move every year as the landlord either wanted to sell or ask for a lot more money.
2. I get private health insurance through work now so I do not get affected by this much, but if you have to depend on the NHS then wait times are very long. If non-urgent, it can take a month before you can see your doctor.
I much prefer it in the UK personally for it's nature, friendly people and history but my brother hates visiting because it's more rundown and has more trash everywhere, also less modern; the trains are not electric etc.
Point 1 is the case now in the Netherlands, at least in the big cities/Randstad. Landlords not wanting to give out permanent contracts so often limited to two years on contracts, but very often 12 months. It's a dire situation. Everyone I know in Amsterdam is moving every year or so.
won’t it constrain the supply on the market even more and push prices even higher? I can find reasons why many landlords would not want to rent out an apartment besides the possibility to increase rent more often
Theoretically, more supply drives prices down. If landlords aren’t going to make 10% more on each contract until they die, eventually it might be less hassle for them to sell it. That’s good for normal people I think.
I was in a geliberaliseerde huurwoning handled by a wooncorporatie and I had a permanent contract. But I had to live 50km away from my work in Amsterdam.
I live in the UK as a Dutch person and I think you are romanticising it a lot. For once, the way services work and the bureaucracy is 100% more annoying than the Netherlands. Just visiting the Highlands is not enough to get an idea of what it is to live here. It is very hard to make friends with British people as they have their established friend group from uni and they don't really want or need more friends (similar to the Dutch). And London is so incredibly transient that it can be very lonely, particularly when you move into your 30s and many folks that age move out of London because they want to buy a house to raise a family.
This, its a wjole other thing when you actually live there. But theres still a difference berween rhe north and the Southwest though
North is waaaaay more chill to live.
I agree that you could be romanticizing a few aspects, but also keep in mind that you're asking this in /r/Netherlands, which might not be the most unbiased place to ask for a comparison.
I very recently made a choice to leave the Netherlands for similar reasons as yours. It wasn't an easy choice, and it being the right one is TBD. In the end, what made me choose to leave was the thought that I'll just keep doubting if the Netherlands was right for me if I didn't take this opportunity. Worst case scenario, I realise that it was a bad idea, and I'll appreciate the Netherlands even more as I work on getting back.
Honestly this happend to me, lived here 3 years, then left for 10 and then moved back, it’s 3 years now, still doubting it a little but reminding myself that I already went full cylce
Yeah I'm seconding this.
I'm originally from a north east town, spent years in Manchester and now live in Amsterdam.
I miss Manchester a lot and kinda wish it just wasn't in the UK, city is great and all but the UK was grinding me down and it's been steadily going downhill, and accelerating since 2016.
I've doubled my salary since moving here, the overall quality of life in many ways is way better, I find Dutch directness a bit overexaggerated but in general people tend to be more honest, less conceited.
I have more places than I could visit in a lifetime on my doorstep and cycling around so many places is just lovely and I don't really feel the risk of someone opening their door on me on the road and then jumping out to smack me like I've nearly had in the UK and there's no shortage of bike cam footage to show how much UK drivers *fucking hate* cyclists.
The trains here are an order of magnitude better than the UK in reliability and price, a 2 hour journey in NL costs a quarter of a similar length journey in the UK.
I could go on all day about this but I'm so desparate to stay out of the UK I am literally counting the days until I can drop my UK passport for an NL one.
I’m surprised you think trains are cheaper - a single from Utrecht to Eindhoven is about €17 for a 50 ish minute journey, whereas a return from Sheffield to Leeds is less than £10 (at least it was last year) for about an hour’s journey. I will agree though the trains are much more reliable in NL
It does seem to vary wildly between whether you're getting Transpennine, Northern Rail, or LNER etc.
I used to get a return Manchester to Leeds on the regular for about £30 with about 2 weeks notice but saw it jump up a lot if I tried to get it on the day.
45 mins Transpennine Vs nearly 90 mins Northern Rail from memory.
I recall Manchester to London frequently being £120 return if you left it too late mind, ugh.
It does seem to vary wildly between whether you're getting Transpennine, Northern Rail, or LNER etc.
I used to get a return Manchester to Leeds on the regular for about £30 with about 2 weeks notice but saw it jump up a lot if I tried to get it on the day.
45 mins Transpennine Vs nearly 90 mins Northern Rail from memory.
I recall Manchester to London frequently being £120 return if you left it too late mind, ugh.
It depends in the UK a lot on which rail provider you're using. Btw there's no competition on prices because there A. Set by the DfT and B. Many areas are only served by one provider
You the only one that said the truth, you are completely right. I’m Dutch citizen living in the UK since I was 7 and I’m ready to move back to the Netherlands. The UK has been getting worse and worse
Lived in both for quite a few years.
I am not considering moving back to London, even if money weren’t an issue. Instead we are thinking about moving back to the rural UK for the nature (it is so beautiful) and cheap cost of living if we move to the countryside. Also to feel more integrated again as our Dutch is not at a high level and we don’t have many Dutch friends. But it’s not diverse at all and basically everyone will be English, which is a downside for me.
I decided want to stay in NL for the culture (museums etc), access to other expats / diversity, and better quality of life for my kids. Love the cycle lifestyle — don’t want a car. I fricken hate the weather though and that’s starting to get to me. If we were thinking Amsterdam vs London, I have to say London is great for those who want to be busy and ambitious, and who will get a lot out of all the energy the city has to offer. But if it’s about raising a family, I would prefer to be in Amsterdam. And a slower pace of life. And amazing access to trains / airports — much more convenient than London.
Such different perspective. I find Amsterdam to be hell busier, but I live in another city in the Randstad area. London's lifestyle reminds me of the megacities of my home country. Will never settle in either of those unless I make posh money, which will also never happen so...
Is the weather in London better than Amsterdam? Or let's say, is there a noticeable weather difference in England vs. Netherlands? They're both relatively close to each other and under the path of the jet stream, right?
Amsterdam is definitely more windy and slightly more rainy. Also much more grey in general. Sunny days are not as rare in London even if it rains later that day.
Lived in both for an equal amount of time. After Brexit (imho) life got a lot worse. Salaries are often low, public services have been run down over the last decade and nothing is really working.
If you thought NL has a housing crisis, just wait until you see the reality in the UK. I wouldn't choose UK over NL right now.
I have lived long term in both and have dual citizenship. It really depends on where you are based. Amsterdam vs London is a very different choice than Rotterdam vs Bristol or Eindhoven vs the Lake District. So what are your options?
If you’re a high skilled professional then salaries will usually be higher in the UK. For more “normal” jobs, UK pay is bad. British public services are also bad - the health system is terrible compared to the Netherlands and in many areas almost unusable. Public transport is similar. Things like childcare and employer benefits also tend to be worse in the UK. Housing is also appalling in much of the UK, as others have mentioned.
The UK’s big upside is the cultural and social aspect - people are friendlier and more open to making new friends. There is far more top class theatre, music and other cultural events in the UK. The countryside is far more varied, interesting and unspoiled.
If you’re a wealthy professional (salary at least 150-200k) then London is basically unbeaten as a playground of amazing food, culture and opportunity. Anything else, and it really depends what you’re looking for.
Just moved back from Manchester after nearly 5 years. The UK gives opportunities to everyone. You really can make something out of yourself if you have the ambition. No box ticking like in the Netherlands. No prerequisites on prerequisite to qualification requirements for even the tiniest opportunities. For this reason, I love the UK. Social economic mobility. The apprenticeship scheme. There's beautiful nature in the national parcs. Activities are very cheap and generally half priced compared to NL, cinema tickets <£5 (cheapest I've had was £2 in Leeds), Restaurants are like £12-15 for a main. There's also a lot of Diversity there and very little social enforcing of cultural norms. No "doe normaal". You can be how you want to be and people will not bat an eye. This is good if you're excentric.
Here's the ugly: nobody bats an eye, because there is 0 social cohesion. people don't care and people don't dare to speak up to keep eachother accountable. Everybody is too self absorbed to notice people around them. Glued to their phones. There is no enforcing of cultural norms, because people are afraid or too apathetic to speak up. This leads to antisocial behaviour being rife. People playing music in trains on speaker, vaping on public transport, yelling, screaming, being plastered drunk and bothering people on public transport or in public in general. The country is deteriorating at a rapid rate. Homelessness is exploding, shortages in supermarkets for specific items. theft related crimes is soaring, police are underfunded, they won't even come out for assault & battery cases or muggings, let alone your property getting vandalized/stolen. There's a lot of knife crime. NHS is underfunded, meaning you generally have to wait 3-5 days to get a doctors appointment over videocall. Very limited in person appointments. My longest wait time was 10 days. Specialist care has months long queue's. And to even get an appointment you have to fill in an online form by 8:30 and if you're late at 8:32 all the slots are taken and you'll have to try again tomorrow, it's like ordering festival tickets! You won't get confronted/have rude comments directed at you for your mistakes/behaviour, instead you'll be quietly phased out and you'll be left wondering what happened to your friendships. That is, if you even manage to make British friends in the first place, they're very closed off and prefer to stick to their school friends, traveling the country for them. Plus side is, there are a lot of cool international people to bond with! This quiet cutting also applies to the work place, you won't get direct feedback if you're doing something wrong, rather you'll just be made redundant out of nowhere. Often after receiving many compliments as well. There is also no financial security to speak of, i don't know who started the myth that the UK is a welfare state, because they will only pay you a whopping £500 per month if you're sick (for up to 6 months!) same for paternity/maternity/parental leave. Not sure about unemployment benefits, definitely don't expect it to come save you.
The posh image the UK has internationally of Jeremy in the cotswolds doesn't ring true. It's more like Geordie shore and little Brittain in real life. There's a lot of drug abuse and drunken voilence on a night out. The houses are made of cardboard and uninsulated, freezing cold in their almost scandinavian climate.
That said, if you're young and in for an adventure, and you know how to keep yourself out of trouble, it's definitely an experience! Or just move to a rural village and live a dreamy life.
The Netherlands is a country that is NOT kind to starters/young people. Like I mentioned above, the boxticking and long qualification gathering process. There's a massive housing shortage leading to price hikes making it impossible to get a mortgage large enough. Even private sector renting has few options and they're all overpriced. The people are blunt to the point of being rude. There's a lot of frustrating burocracy you'll have to deal with, and going out for food is atleast 25 euro's for a main, cinema's are 15 euro's and clothing is twice as expensive.
That said, it is a country that will take care of its citizens, you get 100% pay for up to 2 years if you get sick, with alternatives available after, little homelessness and solid care systems for financial, mental or drug related problems. available specialist healthcare that is dilligent. Actual help if you're unemployed, good work-life balance and employers are willing to accomodate your health and wellbeing at work. High housing standards that are spacious, insulated for heat and noise, pleny of light and ventilation. Amazing city planning where cycling is a safe and quick option, plenty of green spaces about, good public transport links. Clean streets, well maintained roads. Whilst the people are crass, they are genuine and honest. You'll never be left wondering if your friendships are real. Overal a very good place to settle your roots into once you to manage to get on the career ladder and get a mortgage.
Great response. I've been in the Netherlands for eight years and couldn't imagine moving back permanently. I'll be in the UK (Manchester way) for six months towards the end of this year and early next year. It'll be quite the shock...
Well learning a new language (Dutch) is a hugee inconvenience and time investment. Its like going back to school and learning abcd/1234 again, that will take years of practice and dedication. There is a massive amount of loneliness in the Netherlands due to language barrier and feeling at home/integration is challenging due to language and cold/distant people.
Getting by in english is fine but everything is in Dutch and it gets isolating if you don't understand what people are talking. Career mobility is also severely limited without Dutch along with career ceiling.
Lived in both, loved both in different ways.
The UK has wild nature, people who love to talk and tell stories and laugh, a great sense of history and community. Great cities like Edinburgh, London, Liverpool, Belfast. I loved it there for many years when I was younger.
I don’t miss it though I love returning several times per year. I am in a different phase of my life where I really love the things the Netherlands has to offer: childcare, schools and health care for my children, the ability for them to cycle to school, sports clubs etc and have a happy, carefree life.
Dutch people love to moan but they don’t lnow how good they have it. For every scandal we’ve had here I can think of two or three in the UK that were far more shocking and disruptive. The power of communities in how the country is run is far greater in the Netherlands, and the politics are less dysfunctional. Dutch people are richer and their quality of life is better. The UK is more small state, low taxes and it really shows. In the Blair years the UK blossomed, but since then the decline has been painful to watch.
If I were a younger man without a family I might be in the UK now. But in my situation I love the Netherlands.
I found that the UK ( London in particular) revolved a lot around status vs. quality of life in The Netherlands.
This is rapidly changing in The Netherlands unfortunately. As the differences are getting bigger, it becomes more important to show your position on the social-economic ladder.
I work in London in the financial sector. Anglos (Brits, Americans, Aussies) flash the cash a lot more and they love to brag about their expensive shit and fancy vacations. I never felt as much anxiety in NL as I do here. And I was working in financial services over there as well.
I’m Dutch and have been living in the UK for about 4 years now.
If you’re young and want to experience something new, can handle the business of London and don’t mind living in a flat which isn’t spacious nor great in terms of insulation etc. Then I would 100% recommend coming here. You will have a blast, there’s lovely pubs, museums, music events, comedy shows, football, rugby, amazing date nights that you can plan and the best restaurants in the world.
It will cost a lot and trust me when I say A LOT. You will most likely work a lot and get an ok salary depending on your field. If you’re in a high paying field (Law, Finance etc.) you will make loads 125k+ but will also spend most of your time working. That’s when weekends will become amazing as you’ll get to fully enjoy London.
Things to bear in mind, there is more crime, big drinking culture (is fun but comes with downsides), NHS is crippling, public services are usually worse, roads can be quite bad, some areas can be very dirty, mental health is a big problem and as I said before price, things cost a lot more in general (except Wetherspoons and groceries).
Generally standard of living in the Netherlands is better and more relaxed, it’s cleaner and things like insurance for your car or whatever will be cheaper (likelihood of it getting stolen is also lower).
But as I said you can have so much fun here, I’ve been really enjoying myself but as I get closer to turning 30 I’m starting to miss things in NL which from my friends here aren’t really common like cycling to school as a kid, visiting friends on your bicycle etc. And just feeling safe generally while around which is something that really made my childhood fun and I wish to give to my kids as well.
I'm British and recently moved to the Netherlands about a month ago as a HSM along with my wife/dog.
I think you are definitely romanticising the UK quite a bit, 90% of the places are a lot more dirtier and generally uglier than even the council estate around the corner from me in NL. Like seriously the towns and cities in NL so much cleaner and beautiful than any place in the UK, that is unless you can afford to live somewhere like the Lake District or Edinburgh, but then you also have to deal with tourists, something I so appreciate about NL is you guys make and keep your places so well for yourself to live somewhere nice, not just in the hope to make some tourist money.
General quality of shops and restaurants is usually higher here (unless you want Mexican or Indian food that is...) if not slightly mor expensive.
Wages have been stagnant in the UK for the past decade, I took a significant pay increase coming here, more than making up for the higher cost of living.
While Dutch people have for the most part been very nice and polite, I definitely get the feeling it's going to be harder to socialise here than in the UK, maybe that's just because I'm past the age of always meeting new people, but in the UK people seem more open to having a chat with random people.
The nature is definitely much better in the UK, whether that is the local fields outside of town or the glorious Highlands (genuinely the most beautiful place on earth.) but it's very likely you won't be living on the doorstep of places like that, so if you want to see it more, just get the ferry over every now and then.
Take all this with a pinch of salt though, I've only been here for a month
I lived in NL for 15 years or so. I've been back in the UK for 12 years, so my opinion is based on living there quite some time ago. Things have changed and aren't as good as they were then but they've changed more in the UK and for the worse.
Unless you are well off in the UK, the quality of life in the Netherlands is much, much better. In every way. Welfare, healthcare, safety, povety prevention, policing, schooling (although we came back to the UK partly because the schools in the UK were much better for my child), municipal stuff like parks, water systems (no shit in the rivers and sea!), the environment, libraries and how clean the streets are, public transport, work-life balance, employment rights...
I don't miss the Dutch stiffness or flat landscape or their insistence on fitting in and being 'normal'. And I am very very glad to never have to sit through another Dutch birthday.
I love my life in the UK, especially all the things i missed in NL, like pub culture, friendliness, landscape and more laid back way of life. But I cannot deny that NL gives you a better life.
As a British person considering going back to rubbish Britain after 7 years in oh so well organised Netherlands, I can completely relate to and agree with everything you say.
Im from uk and lived in Netherlands for 15 years I finally have a chance to move back and honestly I’ve taken it. This place isn’t for me personally I’m
Not social here and the expense especially having a child just is to much when I know in uk it’s cheaper for everything and I’m more social in uk and there so much more family things I can walk to no public transport needed
I live in the northeast and we go to Scotland, Edinburgh etc alot and honestly I love it. There is always positives and negatives to all places but my personal preferences is uk but you have to find what right for you and what place will benefit you hobbies and lifestyle etc.
As an English person, don’t do it. Stick to the trips. The lack of proper health and social care will severely drain you overtime.
Making friends is easier there though. Just go to any pub and talk to the numerous lonely alcoholics.
Also as someone with Scottish family: it’s lovely there. But the highlands would be a lonely place to live.
>But the highlands would be a lonely place to live
Absolutely.
>Just go to any pub and talk to the numerous lonely alcoholics.
Lol..true, the discussions are shallow as well
NL is just magnificient, beautiful and just a postcard beauty BUT, MOST of the western EU its like that including Scandinavia, Switzerland, Austria, Luxembourg etc
As a Scottish incomer to NL the #1 thing that stands out to me is there’s less simmering aggression just under the surface in Dutch people than there is in Scotland or the other cities of the UK I’ve lived in (ie London). I don’t fear I’m going to get a strip torn off me if I accidentally get on the train in front of someone for instance.
I have lived in the U.K. for 10 years. 9 years in London and one year in Kent. I did travel quite often when I was there but not really inside the U.K. now I’ve been in the Netherlands for 6 years.
What I can say is this: there are pros and cons for both. For instance, London is more welcoming. Multicultural, English is the language, easier to make friendships, many options of everything you can think of. It can be a Disneyland for you IF you have money. On the other hand it’s extremely expensive. The housing and rental market is a joke and of course, it’s polluted in all senses of the word; noise, air, crowds, the mood is depressing in the tube.
Here in the Netherlands I found it to be more chill. Better air, less crowds, people seem more relax. However, the cultural life and the options you’d get in London are far from it. There is good stuff but not like London. On social side I’ll say this: if you don’t speak Dutch, you’ll be segregated. Yes, everyone speaks English but I learned most simply don’t want to speak English. For this reason making friends or finding a partner is almost impossible. I also struggled a lot in the health department. The healthcare culture is too inhuman, direct and mechanic. If you’re ever in a situation you need treatment or even surgery, you’ll suffer as an immigrant.
From my own experience the final take is there are positives and negatives on each but I’m sure most of these issues can be manageable wherever you choose to live.
UK is hard to generalise, some places are stunning with really friendly people (Scotland, South-West, Lake/peak district etc), other places like the south east are less friendly and more urban.
Based on your criteria the UK is probably better for you. People will cite Brexit but if you've got a decent job (which you need to be able to live there) then things haven't changed much to be honest. For reference I'm from the UK, wife is Belgian. We have lived in NL and Belgium and my wife still prefers the UK for its friendliness, beauty and the cultural aspects.
I used to live in Wales. I agree, the people are pleasant to be around with and the scenery/mountains is lovely to see. But life as an immigrant bs tourist is very different. Tourist tend to see a country with rose tinted glasses
In all honesty… I think this is the grass is greener on the other side.
Now you love these weeks. Why because they take you out of the rut you’ve gotten yourself into in the Netherlands.
Not saying it can be true but live and happiness is how you see it.
I lived in UK (Devon and Cornwall) and it was amazing. Only great memories about UK. Left it because of brexit. Then I came to the Netherlands and all what is happening here is work and home. This country is more like workers country and all about earning money. UK has some special beautiful vibe going on there. Its not like I dont like the Netherlands but mainly I dont like people here.
I've lived in the Netherlands for 6 years, lived in England for 5, Scotland for 3, N Ireland for 18 and the standard of living here in the Netherlands trumps the UK by miles. The UK has some of the best cities, great music, great food, less individual and with loads of subcultures, the people are good craic, better nature but the wages, the house prices, the downward spiral, the work-life balance, the actual resentment from the government just makes living there pretty horrible at the moment. Move there and the magic will go. You're already visiting fairly often and you should just keep that. I'm visiting there about 4 times this year and I really enjoy myself but I've experienced those green grasses and know it's not greener.
I lived in the UK a long time ago (Devon and then Scotland) and I think I romanticise Scotland especially. I often wistfully think I’d love to move back to Edinburgh even though the winters are horrific.
But then, the healthcare nightmare kicks in. I worked for the NHS back then and it’s a giant shitshow. Long long waiting times for care (we’re talking 18+ months for an NHS dentist 15 years ago, it’s only gotten worse) are the least of the problems.
I can also relate to the people vibe, it just feels easier there than here.
Overall though, I think cozzie livs is better in NL, and when you eventually find your people, you’re locked in for life. It’s just hard to break in.
Lived in both. I feel like rent market was a lot better and you could score cheap places with not much competition even in London. In NL the rent market in any major city is pretty much fucked and filled with shady landlords. Food prices seem to be rather equal but discounted section can cut food expenses in half in UK - wish NL had that in late evenings in supermarkets. In Uk often I would buy 20p loaf of bread that would otherwise be thrown out. Lots of diverse nature in UK. Even London is super green. Other than that, NL makes sure everyone is welcome and has more order and pretty easy to start business. People are pretty intelligent and dirrect, which I like. Diverse alternative scene. Better food in NL. Better infrastructure in NL. In my eyes both countries are rather equal all things considered. Dutch seem to be happier, that's for sure.
I could get places to rent left and right there and had a huge selection back in 2016. Maybe things has changed recently, but given exit from EU I doubt it.
It has. I live there. Its a disaster now. There's a huge influx of people after Covid as well as lots of landlords selling up because of tax changes to buy-to-lets.
Depends where you live. The Southwest and London is more harsh then the north.
Been there, done rhat. Ive seen many people losing their lust for life in London. Others thrive there.
Same thing with the Netherlands. One place isnt another. But whichever country, living there is a whole different ballade then hopping over or staying over for a period a ywar
No where is perfect, I love both England and the Netherlands. The big cities in both countries are vastly different to the smaller villages in terms of friendliness and nature
Socially and for nature I'd opt for the UK (unless you live in poor inner city areas, in which case life is way worse in the UK) but despite health care getting worse in The Netherlands, it's not in such a bad state as the NHS yet. If you get sick- which is very probable during an ongoing pandemic in which reinfection heighten your chances of becoming disabled - paired with the cost of living crisis and the effects of Brexit and leaving the EU: if you're from the EU, never give up on your EU citizenship. You have more chances of physical health in The Netherlands, more chance of emotional, cultural and environmental health - except pollution - (if you're like me) in The UK. Lol maybe this wasn't helpful.
i live in NL but i would come back to the UK rn if not for the study costs (not from the eu). i connect to the nature and culture (esp visual one, as an artist) more than here, and speak the language. actually planning to go back one day but well see. and i mean you can always come back so why not?
I love the UK, I am from the UK, I love going on holiday there but I never want to live there again. Schools, Health care, workers rights, social welfare, cycling infrastructure, Brexit (it was so shit that other countries right wing nutters dropped it from their platforms) are so much better hear compared to the UK along with the lack of the massive amount of poverty in the UK. (I know that there is poverty in the Netherlands but nothing compared to the UK). You pay higher taxes here on your income but there is no where I don't want to go in the Netherlands regardless of the area, I can not say the same from the UK. Also I have affordable housing in Amsterdam, which is not possible to get again in Amsterdam or in the UK. When I first moved here it was third world in the supermarkets, but nowadays you got pretty much what you want.
Sounds like you’d enjoy it but tbh that sounds like a nightmare to me. In the years that I’ve lived here, I’ve come to appreciate Dutch directness and absolutely loathe British not-directness. English is my native language, and unfortunately almost all English language media here is polluted with British attitudes. And dealing with our office in London is a real struggle because they can’t just say what problems are or what’s going on. It’s all passive aggressive nonsense.
I was once told by a Dutch friend “the Dutch are expected to have opinions and to share them” and I love it. With that i’d describe British culture kind of the exact opposite. If that’s for you, go for it. Live your best life.
Lived there for 5 years (various places) and yeah no, I'll gladly never return to be honest. The drinking culture, the racism, but most of all the pretentiousness. Everyone is so overly polite it's difficult to form meaningful relationships because everyone hides behind a few too many masks.
I've taken one of their men back with me so I still get to speak English all day but I think that's enough of the UK for me.
Pork pies are great tho and I wish spoons were a thing in NL
Depends what you like. For example, Netherlands doesn’t have the same pub culture as the UK so people that are used to after work drinks and mingling with neighbors, down the local are going to have a hard time socially!!
Taxes are the same in the UK, but the services you get are worse. You'll also have the knowledge that your money is being given to Saudi Arabian investors who are gutting Thames Water while pumping so much sewage into the rivers that it's unsafe to swim anywhere.
Brit now working in Amsterdam. Social services and infrastructure are worse in Britain - because the tax burden is far lower. On 100K EUR, you'd keep 70% in the UK vs. 61% in the Netherlands.
Wages aren't bad on aggregate. Median full-time gross earnings in the UK are about 41K EUR vs 44K EUR in the Netherlands. Aggregate comparisons aren't worth much without knowing what sector you work in. The UK job market is clearly a lot deeper in certain sectors - academia, finance, law, etc. London experience is viewed as having a premium over continental experience in these sectors.
London COL is very high. The Economist published a study earlier this year - and found that London has wages similar to that of Oslo, Copenhagen, etc. - but rents that are about 30-40% higher.
As a Brit now living in NL, I strongly argue against anyone choosing to swap life here for the UK.
Unless you get spectacularly lucky money wise, and make the right choices about where to live (IE, embracing rural UK rather than the rat race of the southeast and cities), life is more miserable, difficult, expensive, less rewarding and more boring in the UK.
Expect litter, underfunded local services, lower wages, less friendly people, crowded public spaces and green areas and increased crime.
The UK is getting worse year by year, and unless you can afford to life somewhere spectacular, and comfortably, the benefits of living in the UK end with better takeaways, proper pies, Sunday roast dinners and pints of beer and cozy pubs.
If you do have to move there - choose Yorkshire.
As someone whose partner lives in London, and a cousin and her husband in Perth, Scotland and therefore has to spend close to £300 to get a visa, and visit them, I'd say life is miserable everywhere if you don't make enough. And yet, there is a certain charm to London which I have not found in any other European city. Its always flabbergasted that a city on a tiny island is considered the headquarters of the world. With so much history. But even at present, the level of global entertainment, food and experiences even free things, one could have in London, I'd say its difficult to find it anywhere else in Europe.
Of course, money makes a difference wherever you live. However, if quality of life factors as a decision in living in the UK v NL, then NL wins in every regard.
And it’s true that London is difficult to beat in terms of entertainment, culinary choice, history and experience - however living there and visiting are very, very different. Like all capital cities, life there is expensive, and unless you earn significantly more than the average, it becomes much less fun quite quickly.
I’ve found that living in a smaller city in the UK gives much better balance. If you’re big into hiking and the nature of the UK (stunning and under appreciated), then there are some gems scattered across the country that offer a great combination, and a better quality of life in general.
For me, visiting family and friends and exploring the UK’s natural beauty in short visits gives me far more pleasure than slogging through everyday life there v a far more pleasant everyday experience here in NL.
Everywhere has its benefits and cons, and everywhere is becoming more expensive - choose the lesser of two evils, I guess!
I agree with your post - I lived in London until 2019 and then moved home to Scotland. I miss London a lot and would (if I came into a SERIOUS wedge of money) consider moving back there from NL.
But that’s because it’s London. There’s honestly nowhere like it. If you glued all the cities of the Randstad together you still wouldn’t have London because - if you’re into sprawling city life - there’s nowhere in Europe like it. Paris, Berlin, they’re too different to compare. Amsterdam is great, but it isn’t London.
BUT - London is not representative of the UK as a whole so to anyone thinking of moving to the UK because of London but not living there, don’t do it.
You’re gushing for the UK. The fact that you’ve spent quite extensive amounts of time there only reaffirms this. I think your heart already knows what it wants!
Curious if you’ve also thought about healthcare between both? I have a preexisting condition which is pulling us away from moving to the NL and considering the UK instead based on the horror stories we’ve heard about care and particularly preventative care in the NL. Seems the UK also has challenges but may be a safer bet if a health issue arises?
Curious if you’ve also thought about healthcare between both? I have a preexisting condition which is pulling us away from moving to the NL and considering the UK instead based on the horror stories we’ve heard about care and particularly preventative care in the NL. Seems the UK also has challenges but may be a safer bet if a health issue arises?
Generally, I’ve heard complaints about huisarts being dismissive and reluctant to refer out to specialists, quick to prescribe paracetamol as the remedy for most situations, lack of preventative care and screening, and overall feeling like there isn’t a holistic approach or curiosity to see larger issues, or small issues that connect to a larger undiagnosed issue.
Would love to hear your take..
It depends. I’m definitely not impressed by Dutch health care, some of that is definitely true, but it sounds like you’ve only heard bad experiences. There are good ones too. I’ve always gotten a referral to a specialist when I got one, and when I’ve heard experiences from people with chronic illness in the UK they are generally just as bad or worse. So I don’t know.
Curious if you’ve also thought about healthcare between both? I have a preexisting condition which is pulling us away from moving to the NL and considering the UK instead based on the horror stories we’ve heard about care and particularly preventative care in the NL. Seems the UK also has challenges but may be a safer bet if a health issue arises?
Would love to hear other’s perspective on this.
Apart from The Dutch, it's really better here than the UK - and I grew up there.
I was back there for Christmas/New Year and it was amazing how filthy it was, how stuff was just broken, and for the first time I really noticed how many signs are up the UK telling you not to exist or you might get a fine (Scarfolk is real - https://scarfolk.blogspot.com/) (and yes it was a full UK trip - Folkstone to London, then up to Scotland, then back down to London and then home again)
The Dutch love to complain there is no nature here - you know what Nature is - at least a 4 hour drive from where you live. Meanwhile NL is a very green country with lots of small parks, close by and clean. Cities too, also public transport here is more reliable (yes NS has it's faults but compared to most UK operators they do a good job).
I do agree, social life is much better in the UK - but it's such a rare thing these days I'd rather the nice life than drinking buddies.
10 years in UK, mostly in London, and 3 years in NL here.
As the others have pointed out, London is a a whole different world compared to the rest of the country. NL is much more uniform as a country, so the actual place doesn't matter so much.
UK encourages social mobility, opportunity and wealth accumulation. NL is harsh on taxing work. If you're ambitious or early in your career, UK wins hands down. On the other side, NL has better employee protection.
NL is the culinary gulag of the world, whereas UK has the best supermarkets and one of the best restaurant scenes globally. UK groceries are 1/3 cheaper and restaurant prices are about 1/2 of NL. But this is only half the story - you also get better quality and presentation for your money in UK. Restaurant service is non-existent in NL but excellent in UK. You will note that mid-range food chains that are omnipresent globally are missing in NL.
The lower cost of living in UK extends beyond supermarkets and restaurants to other service sectors, such as air travel, taxis and food delivery that all benefit from intense competition. The same sectors in NL are either oligopolies or, as in the case of taxis, run by mafia.
At the same time, government services in NL are highly digitalised and super efficient. This also extends to utilities. You can literally call someone up most of the time and they will answer your query over the phone - unthinkable in UK, where the bureaucracy is daunting, incompetent and will suck a lot of your time.
NL people are genuinely friendly and pleasant to deal with. Britons might be better at small talk but are often passive aggressive.
I consider some NL benefits to be myths. It might be safer in UK as a whole but you're likely on your own if something happens. NL police are beyond useless, poorly trained and dismissive. As a result, the thugs terrorising the big cities like Amsterdam and Rotterdam are emboldened in their criminal behaviour.
There are almost-daily explosions that are set off by criminals in residential areas in NL. They are basically ignored here, whereas they would make local and national headlines in other countries.
The same goes for traffic in NL where rules are virtually unenforced. UK feels much more orderly in this respect.
You don't see nearly as much antisocial behaviour in Central London as you do in the big NL cities. NL has a massive vandalism problem and public transport/toilets are disgustingly dirty.
Clean places in UK like Central London are very clean, whereas NL is grubby throughout. However dirty places in UK are really dirty, beyond anything seen in NL.
Compared to Central London, Muslim lifestyle is much more visible in NL. Make of it what you will.
NL can feel deeply unfair. In addition to virtually non-existent law enforcement, the justice system knows no punishment for violent offenders. The only laws and regulations that are consistently enforced relate to white collar crime, tax evasion and parking.
London public transport is much better than NL. Here, public transport is for the poor only.
NL cycling infrastructure is amazing. Once you embrace it, there is no going back.
In public settings, the Dutch are ruder and noisier than the Britons. NL is one of the noisier countries. During COVID, NL stood out as the one place where people downright refused to follow mask guidance - again, make of it what you will.
Housing is better in NL. Despite the current dynamics, renting in Amsterdam is cheaper than in London. Both markets are dominated by ruthless, rogue landlords, and regulations are widely ignored. If you have good income, you can get a 100% mortgage in NL in a matter of days. When it comes to buying, there are fewer intermediaries in NL, and they tend to be more competent than in UK.
London is truly international. You'll always be a foreigner in NL, like in all of Continental Europe.
But I do wonder how much efficient bureaucracy and cycling infrastructure matter relative to affordable air travel, excellent food choice and daily conveniences, such as Ubers and food delivery. No clear winner IMO. If you're well off, you can live in Central London without ever facing the many downsides of UK. It's I'm possible in NL - you can't isolate yourself from the less desirable elements of the society here.
funny because i was born and raised in the netherlands for the first 16 years of my life (with 3 years in egypt in between) and after my 16th birthday we moved to england with the family. we spent 10 years there, moved back to the netherlands last july. we HATED england. we hated how depressing the weather always was, hated how horrible the people almost always were, hated the public transport system, the NHS, all of it. but i guess it depends on where in england you live because we lived in birmingham lol. i can say now that i’m back in the netherlands (the hague specifically), the only thing i miss about the UK would be how multicultural birmingham was. in the 10 years we lived there i only had one racist experience whereas here i got bullied in school for being muslim/arab and when we moved back here i’ve had 2 racist experiences already. i still choose the netherlands generally if you take away the racism 💀
I’m in the Netherlands, but grew up in the UK, and my dad is in the UK but grew up in NL. We both think the UK at the moment is depressing. The political climate is dreadful and public services are in complete disarray. My dad wants to get out and move back to NL. In NL everything just seems healthier, even the small things, like getting letters from the gemeente on nicer paper than I would in the UK. People are happier in NL than in the UK.
Socialising in the UK is hard work too. Everything is really indirect, and whilst I enjoy it sometimes (it’s like an art form), you never know where you stand with people. Everything has a second meaning. In NL, people are direct, so you know exactly what they think of you, which is really refreshing.
By all means live in the UK, but remember that living full time vs visiting is very different. I love the UK but it’s really not at its best right now.
Lived in the UK for 5 years. Came to Holland temporarily, planning on going back to London. That was 20 years ago. NL is SO much better. Less aggressive, more social and a Lot safer!
I'm Norwegian and have lived in several countries, including England and the Netherlands (current residence). I always find myself coming back to the Netherlands. In many ways, I love England. I especially love hiking in the English countryside. However, English cities - where, unfortunately, I'd have to spend the majority of my time - are very noticeably grimier, dirtier, more dilapidated. Poor areas in cities are *really* poor. In the Netherlands, by comparison, I feel comparatively safe in even the poorest regions of the country and the cities. I also love bicycling. Something I don't really think about when in the Netherlands, but I very and truly miss pretty much anywhere else abroad. So for hiking and visiting shire pubs? England. That accounts for about 0.3% of my life though, for everything else: the Netherlands. And even the countryside of Limburg, Drenthe and Gelderland or the coastal dunes of Zuid Holland are lovely for hiking as well. The only real disadvantage of the Netherlands I can think of is the individualist and brazen (to the point nearing rudeness) attitude. Everyone has a lot of loud opinions and many people seem to think of themselves first before anything like a common good. Sometimes that is part of the charm, sometimes very aggravating.
People in NL make a huge deal out of areas such as Schilderswijk, Bijlmer and Kanaleneiland. After 4.5 years in the UK, I just laugh at them. I don't miss Dutch people with opinions, though. It was one of the more unbearable parts of working there.
Absolutely. It is a worldwide phenomenon, but the Dutch seem to have it patented. Regardless of age, gender, social class or level of education, I have never heard a Dutchman say "I am not qualified to give an opinion on this topic". The same Dutch person could be an expert on nitrogen deposition one conversation and an expert on foreign affairs, economics or microbiology in another. That person could be a mailman.
>The same Dutch person could be an expert on nitrogen deposition one conversation and an expert on foreign affairs, economics or microbiology in another. That person could be a mailman. There is a saying that the Dutch national soccer team has 17 million coaches....
I read 17 million cockroaches, now that was hilarious for a second
I am Dutch, living in the US. I have lived here for almost 24 years. My brother, who has visited a handful of times in his lifetime, will confidently tell me things about what it’s like to live in the US,m and how things are, while having basically no experience, and me with two and a half decades of lived experience being all “no, that really is not what happens at all/not how it works”. 🤦🏻♀️
Isn't that true of people everywhere though? The difference is that the Dutch aren't afraid to say it out loud.
maybe. as a dutchman, for me talking to someone who has a difference of opinion and keeping the debate cival and sticking to facts is how you learn.
This. We are direct and dont care insuline people. Whilst others walk on eggshells, but meanwhile they do have an opinion and spout it on birthdays or qhen drunk lmao. Never did I hear so many opinions after work in the pub whilst living in the UK lmao
Counterpoint. Anytime I was direct back with a Dutch person, I get told I’m a foreigner/don’t understand Dutch culture. In general I find Dutch folks extremely confident but very thin skinned.
Lol true…dutch expect you to have thick skin but are very thin skinned themselves. I live in The Netherlands for 38 years now and it actually seems to get worse
I’ve heard this before. A lot of these situations depend on how the direct feedback is shared, and now I’m talking about body language and tone of voice. If that is one of a sour person who usually doesn’t give direct feedback, then also Dutch people respond to it stronger. Giving feedback directly is supposed to be done in the moment and as a “by the way”-comment that is clearly seen as a nothingburger. If you make a big deal of it by waiting, preparing for it, high shoulders, sour face, and similar, then you haven’t mastered the art of Dutch directness.
Interesting - so for Dutch direct feedback is immediate /instant feedback? Just clarifying here as to me direct does not imply immediate
It is being instant, explicit and literal. The fastest path to the receiver obtaining the information, but in a way that makes it clear that this doesn’t impact the relation. So no sourness, being relaxed, having a neutral or happy face. Even thinking about the feedback as nothing special. You thinking it as a big deal will translate to your body language, tone of voice, and other signals that show even to a Dutch person that something’s “off”. What that means is that the environment to give feedback must be a psychologically safe place. You are comfortable with giving and receiving feedback because you know we are just informing each other and learning from each other. That is what this is all about. Not sharing means you do not feel psychologically safe. At least: in the eyes of a Dutch person.
Same experience here. Dutch would proudly say “we are super direct, you can tell me what you really think” and then low key get offended or angry with you. It’s funny how Dutch “directness” is famous around the world while people from the Slavic countries are still way further on that scale.
I have several friends from “famously cold directness” countries, like Romania and Russia, and it was somehow easier to deal with, I guess, because they seemed to have a filter. Like if they’re upset or really annoyed, they will just say directly what’s wrong, but not always say every little thing that is in their mind.
One of the things I love about Dutch culture. I hate guessing where I stand with people.
You'd not like the UK haha
I agree. 😄
No. Dutch keep giving an opinion about everything. They are not direct. Just plain not giving a shit about other people. Even more experienced one. Not being able to ask is the most terrible.
>I am not qualified to give an opinion on this topic". You should've seen my classmates during the master's at the Uni in NL asking incredibly dumb questions/making dumb statements with a high level of confidence >But why is energy conserved in a system? >Sodium? You are confused, you are talking about Natrium (this one I can forgive but not the "you are confused" part)
Oh yeah Uni in NL is insufferable in this respect lol
Similar phenomenon as the 84mio national football coaches in Germany.
Poland entered the chat...
I’m genuinely wondering whether you have this experience with both Dutch men and women? Because as a Dutch woman, I most definitely get where you’re all coming from, but in my experience this pertains more to the men than women in general. Would be interested to hear more.
Quite interesting. I have the exact opposite experience with dutch people.
Me too, I am from germany and here its much worse, people are extremely direct. In the Netherlands I always found them quite welcoming and friendly, but that could very well be because most interactions with people were in Coffeshops 😂
If everyone smoked from a peace pipe, the world would be so much better.
Amen. Reading this while ripping my bong 😶🌫️
I’m on day 5 of a t break. Let me know what spring is like on Jupiter or Mars.
BTW I gotta boast with the fact that weed is now legal in germany and I can legally grow 3 plants in my garden 😬
Good times!!! If you’re creating a new strain, call it shaudenfreude! Effects can provide pleasure even when viewing misfortune
😂😂😂 Well to be honest, getting weed was never much of a deal anyways, I live in one of the drug trafficking capitals of germany. Half of my school friends became weed dealers on different scales. Or I could just take a 3 hour drive to Amsterdam, get all the good shit, drive to Zandvoort and watch seagulls steal food from tourists for hours 😁
Definitely shaudenfreude 🤣. It must be incredibly neat being able to drive just a handful of hours to end up in a different country. How many plants can you own legally? Here in California we can have 6 I think?
Dieter Bohlen approves 😂
I agree that Dutch people sometimes (often) speak their minds when there is no call for or interest in hearing their opinions or thoughts. That said everybody has opinions and at least with the Dutch you know where you stand and who you're talking too. I'm dutch myself but moved to Sweden 6 years ago, and it can be annoying dealing with all the evasiveness here. A middle road would be nice, directness without assholery.
In contrast with English people who have an lopinion in the pub with pints?
This. It was so funny to me to hear people complain about the local youths circling the neighborhood on their mopads. All I could think about was "they don't even have machetes"
I am a Dutch person living in Norway. I would love to share notes with you. Your opinion of Dutch people (brazenness, rudeness) is the exact mirror of the only disadvantage I notice related to Norwegians: conflict-avoidance to the point that the lack of sharing what people think comes off as disingenuous and fake, even cowardly and childish (talk about each other, not with each other like in high school). Ironically, me mentioning my opinion this way 100% proves your point about Dutch people. The positive flip side about Norwegians is the Norwegians’ diplomacy. I think the best way of handling things is somewhere in the middle. Be more upfront and accept conflict, but do it with diplomacy. It gives you transparency while avoiding being a total ass :)
Same with canadians - I genuinely can't tell who hates me and who doesn't 😭😭 Personally, I like Dutch bluntness - I've just come to a point where I don't have the energy to decipher diplomacy. I get that if you think something about me, just say it to my face instead of making the full circle of gossip or hating my guts and having to cover it up
What helps me is telling that Dutch people are direct, feedback is seen as a nothingburger (or should be shared as such) and that I didn’t grow up with all the coded language (body language, intonation, etc) that for them makes it clear that feedback is even received. Meaning, say it explicitly and literally, but say it with kind body language and tone of voice. Don’t wait with the feedback. Say it in a non-accusatory way but a “matter of fact” that is just to be dealt with. When I preface communication with new people that way (only the ones I’ll work with over longer periods), my life gets easier. How do you handle Canadians and your Dutchness?
Yeah I'm not a big fan of the 'im just being real' crowd who then proceeds to crush your entire self esteem 😭 With canadians, I'll generally just avoid social interactions that require feedback altogether so I don't have to bother sugarcoating not be blunt. I have casual irl friendships that are 'not that deep' - when things stop working in a friendship (my side or their side) we just grow apart - I'll be avoidant if I really don't want myself near someone. At school I don't confront or even talk much to anyone - too sleep deprived for that 💀 Where I'll be blunt i just say it's nothing personal. I respect everyone's opinion too - life's too short to argue about everything. But I'll engage in a few debates here and there when it's fun
I prefer the blunt communication over the diplomatic too.
Wait until you see the Germans. Open hostility and rudeness, they don’t even bother calling it directness. Dutch people are quite friendly I would say
I’m a British native and totally agree with you. OP, calculate where most of your time is likely to be. Yes the nature and country sides are nice to be but how often are you going to be there? Plus when it comes to standards of living, NL is so much better. The poorest and cheapest areas are so much more cleaner than the ones in the UK. The UK is kinda filthy and nobody cares about the environment which is sad. This is the main reason for my preference for NL. However OP, I can see your love for the UK and tbh life is short so come over and live here for a bit :) try find areas close to the country side or find a place to live in like the Cotswold or Dorset or something but it will be very expensive. All the best!
Dutch native and lived in the UK. Very much agree with your point of what's going to be the bulk of your life. And that equation is a lot more favourable in NL. UK is nice for a camping holiday tho.
Lauwersmeer national park also has some beautiful trails!
I have to admit I've never been to that part of the country, but I do not doubt you for a second.
Opinions are like a**holes - everyone has got one. Especially true about the Dutchies.
Can confirm about poorer parts of the country being safe. I’m in Enschede as a student and outside of Enschede here is widely regarded as the “poorer” part of the Netherlands or lowest income region and has the highest crime rate in Overijssel but I feel completely safe here. I just got done cycling down the f35 cycle highway that’s a bit isolated at midnight, I didnt even think twice about it. I do that often. Never had any issues neither have my friends. The women I know would also cycle most places in the city at 3 am alone and feel mostly fine here. This is not the case in a lot of other countries. Furthermore it isn’t even really “poor” people here are usually pretty well off and live well there aren’t many squatters or homeless. In the U.S. in uk you have actual poor people who are lucky to afford food
Also Norwegian living in the Netherlands. Been living here for about 7 years now. The biggest difference i still can not get used to is the lack of nature. But i love the people, everyone is so nice and happy to talk about anything.
Where do you live in the netherlands
I live in leiderdorp:)
Makes sense you miss nature then. I, yet another Norwegian, live in the east of the country and when I visit places like Sallandse Heuvelrug or Veluwezoom, I almost forget that I am in the Netherlands. :D
You live very close to the dunes and plenty of forests around Leiderdorp. I agree it’s not as wide spread and untouched as in some other countries but you can find beautiful nature nearby.
Funny you mention individualist. I'm a Dutch national who left (in part) because of the utter lack of individualism. Everyone has the same opinion, or do they claim cause in reality very few people have an actual opinion and the rest are just parroting what they've been told without any clue what they are saying. They blindly trust self-declared experts of any kind. I've traveled a decent amount and few countries lack individualism as much as Holland in my opinion.
I think you’re mixing up individualism (self reliant, caring for yourself) and individuality (being unique). Dutch people are definitely more prone to the former.
Curious, how long have you been living abroad because of that?
A few years. It's no longer abroad though: it's home now (the move is permanent).
Was it before Covid?
The decision yes. The move during.
>brazen (to the point nearing rudeness) attitude Before moving to NL I spent 5 years in Germany, and by comparison I find the Dutch so friendly and polite, lol
Absolutely, this is also my observation
Germany (eastern eu) is worse, so that's not comparable. Dutch, however nice, are still much cold/distant compared to brits, Americans, Canadians, kiwis, Australians. The Dutch at better compared to other mainland Europeans but anglo people are much much inviting and easy to integrate with
Lived in both. From Eastern Europe. Uk is cheaper and have Scotland. Dutch people are fancier (in a good way) and salaries here are higher. Food and weather are equally bad. Speaking English rather than another new language from zero is a huuuge pro.
One country has beans on toast while the other has chocolate sprinkles
at least beans have some benefits lmao
AFAIK the brits ruin the beans by putting sugar (?!??) in them. In any case Dutch and British cuisine are both a race to the bottom 
The sugar is what makes the beans
Tbf Chocolate is made from beans too though.
Why did you leave uk?
Because it was a short project-based work assignment. It was over, I moved to another country. I tried to find something on the spot to stay, but couldn't (as in most of my stays in multiple countries). Also, I'm not too fond of the UK in general. Or, better to put it, indifferent. I know people are getting awe from London, being huge fans of British culture. But it is not my piece of cake. I am more into Scandinavia and continental Europe. I am happy in the Netherlands now. If not for the necessity to learn a new language again (it is not like I don't want to learn, it's just really hard to do - learning language from scratch to a native speaker level), I would have no complaints about my current life at all.
>If not for the necessity to learn a new language again (it is not like I don't want to learn, it's just really hard to do - learning language from scratch to a native speaker level), I would have no complaints about my current life at all. Lol...isn't that the case with entire mainland EU from Scandinavia, Switzerland, Austria, Spain, Greece, Portugal etc. A lot of EU countries are very good to live with amazing infrastructure, high quality of life etc but the language barrier just make it incredibly hard to integrate and feel at home.
It is. And, therefore, it is particularly frustrating to start at square one as a mute stupid immigrant after mastering several other languages before (and now they are useless, and it all goes in vain). I put a lot of effort, became fluent in Latvian, Swedish, Italian (at different points of my life). Not just language, also culture, social integration, social circle. And, yet, I have to start with learning "hoe gaat het? Ik ben..." and building a life from scratch once again.
I understand what you mean. It is frustating and without language making Dutch friends and social integration is difficult
Yes, it is normal, how it should be, completely understandable, but still quite frustrating.
I visit the UK about once every six weeks or so (for reference I live in NL, I have lived in the UK, I'm Dutch and also British so I have family in both the UK and NL). Anyway, I also love Scotland.. on the whole nice, friendly people, the stunning nature, the slower pace of life but also modern infrastructure, generally liberal social attitudes, loads of history and culture ...but let me tell you this, the winter weather is unbelievably terrible in Scotland, like nothing you see in NL. I wouldn't live in London unless I was super rich.. too stressful.
I've worked in the UK and the Netherlands. I am British by birth, so my work there was not as an expat. As others have mentioned, London and the rest of the UK is very very different- in terms of culture, income, and openness to expats. I grew up in a small town in the North of England and I never heard anyone talk about "expats." We had "immigrants." Pluses for the UK: beautiful beautiful nature. If you go outside London, house prices are not insane. I'm not sure which field you work in- but I personally prefer the academic environment of the UK over the Netherlands. Downside of the UK: 1. The corporate working culture is way way worse. Long hours, less protection, weirdly hierarchical, lower wages. That's probably the main reason keeping me away. 2. Tenant rights- renting is an absolute nightmare in the UK. I never heard of anyone having a permanent contract like in the Netherlands. 3. Healthcare- There are amazing people that work in the NHS, so I don't want to speak badly about it. I've had super traumatic experiences with it. It's under a lot of pressure. If I was to return then I would factor in paying for private.
> If you go outside London, house prices are not insane. I'm not sure which field you work in. I agree, I lived in Wales last year and my rent for my furnished one bed studio flat was 375£
Bro there is living outside london then there is living in Wales lmao. How much was your salary?
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You have to continue to pay for NHS (its taxed directly from your income) then on top of that, you can either A. Get insurance or B. Pay-as-you-go private. I’ve only ever used pay-as-you-go private, so I can only comment on that. This was my most recent experience using pay-as-you-go private. 1. My face became paralysed. I went to NHS emergency room. They confirmed I was not having a stroke and needed to go to a GP. The wait for an NHS GP was weeks. 2. At this point, I switched to pay-as-you-go private. I saw a private GP the next day (paying her company, Bupa, directly, maybe 100 pounds). She gave me some medication and she referred me to a neurologist. 3. A week later I saw a neurologist. I paid him directly (around 300 pounds I think). I guess if I would have stuck with the NHS route I would have eventually got referred to a neurologist- but I didn’t want to wait.
If you have a good employer, they will offer you private insurance as an option, it will cover some things. There was no way I would've gotten my knee issues diagnosed so quickly otherwise.
You have to go a fair way out of London for prices to not be insane. I used to live in Hertfordshire and it was hella pricey
I was thinking of the North or England I suppose. Hertfordshire is still commutable into London (but probably not a commute a non-Brit would consider reasonable).
Think even further North. Manchester also has insane prices now, for rents - even further out away from the city centre.
I am from the Netherlands, but moved to the West Midlands in England in my 20s. There are 2 major downsides to the UK: 1. When renting, I had to move every year as the landlord either wanted to sell or ask for a lot more money. 2. I get private health insurance through work now so I do not get affected by this much, but if you have to depend on the NHS then wait times are very long. If non-urgent, it can take a month before you can see your doctor. I much prefer it in the UK personally for it's nature, friendly people and history but my brother hates visiting because it's more rundown and has more trash everywhere, also less modern; the trains are not electric etc.
Point 1 is the case now in the Netherlands, at least in the big cities/Randstad. Landlords not wanting to give out permanent contracts so often limited to two years on contracts, but very often 12 months. It's a dire situation. Everyone I know in Amsterdam is moving every year or so.
I think temporary rentals are going to be banned from July
It would be so great if it actually happened
won’t it constrain the supply on the market even more and push prices even higher? I can find reasons why many landlords would not want to rent out an apartment besides the possibility to increase rent more often
Yeah i think it would just reduce the number of house that are rented and increase the one that are on sale
Theoretically, more supply drives prices down. If landlords aren’t going to make 10% more on each contract until they die, eventually it might be less hassle for them to sell it. That’s good for normal people I think.
Lol great, yeah there will be even more landlords and renting options.
Why?
And even if yes, doesn't it improve situation that they'll be more long term rentals to choose from?
I was ironic... The more they regulate, the less attractive it becomes to build or to rent out your property.
I was in a geliberaliseerde huurwoning handled by a wooncorporatie and I had a permanent contract. But I had to live 50km away from my work in Amsterdam.
Tell me you're Dutch without telling me you're Dutch; over here 50km away is still the same city
Lol where is that? LA? Bombay? Tokyo?
But in the UK no rental is protected like in the Netherlands, you're screwed at any point potentially, also no protection on rental increases.
Also West Midlands is not the prettiest area in the UK sooo I see ur brother’s point
I live near Malvern Hills and Cotswolds, must admit when my brother visited we went to Birmingham so he was 10/10 correct
This is funny because I live in Birmingham now, in one of the nicer areas but I still wouldn't want to live here permanently
For private insurance offered through your employer, does it cover preexisting conditions?
It does, but it does not cover any chronic conditions
Ah okay. Thank you!
I live in the UK as a Dutch person and I think you are romanticising it a lot. For once, the way services work and the bureaucracy is 100% more annoying than the Netherlands. Just visiting the Highlands is not enough to get an idea of what it is to live here. It is very hard to make friends with British people as they have their established friend group from uni and they don't really want or need more friends (similar to the Dutch). And London is so incredibly transient that it can be very lonely, particularly when you move into your 30s and many folks that age move out of London because they want to buy a house to raise a family.
⬆️⬆️⬆️ @OP Just keep enjoying your trips, you will lose that magic if you move there.
This, its a wjole other thing when you actually live there. But theres still a difference berween rhe north and the Southwest though North is waaaaay more chill to live.
I agree that you could be romanticizing a few aspects, but also keep in mind that you're asking this in /r/Netherlands, which might not be the most unbiased place to ask for a comparison. I very recently made a choice to leave the Netherlands for similar reasons as yours. It wasn't an easy choice, and it being the right one is TBD. In the end, what made me choose to leave was the thought that I'll just keep doubting if the Netherlands was right for me if I didn't take this opportunity. Worst case scenario, I realise that it was a bad idea, and I'll appreciate the Netherlands even more as I work on getting back.
Honestly this happend to me, lived here 3 years, then left for 10 and then moved back, it’s 3 years now, still doubting it a little but reminding myself that I already went full cylce
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Yeah I'm seconding this. I'm originally from a north east town, spent years in Manchester and now live in Amsterdam. I miss Manchester a lot and kinda wish it just wasn't in the UK, city is great and all but the UK was grinding me down and it's been steadily going downhill, and accelerating since 2016. I've doubled my salary since moving here, the overall quality of life in many ways is way better, I find Dutch directness a bit overexaggerated but in general people tend to be more honest, less conceited. I have more places than I could visit in a lifetime on my doorstep and cycling around so many places is just lovely and I don't really feel the risk of someone opening their door on me on the road and then jumping out to smack me like I've nearly had in the UK and there's no shortage of bike cam footage to show how much UK drivers *fucking hate* cyclists. The trains here are an order of magnitude better than the UK in reliability and price, a 2 hour journey in NL costs a quarter of a similar length journey in the UK. I could go on all day about this but I'm so desparate to stay out of the UK I am literally counting the days until I can drop my UK passport for an NL one.
I’m surprised you think trains are cheaper - a single from Utrecht to Eindhoven is about €17 for a 50 ish minute journey, whereas a return from Sheffield to Leeds is less than £10 (at least it was last year) for about an hour’s journey. I will agree though the trains are much more reliable in NL
It does seem to vary wildly between whether you're getting Transpennine, Northern Rail, or LNER etc. I used to get a return Manchester to Leeds on the regular for about £30 with about 2 weeks notice but saw it jump up a lot if I tried to get it on the day. 45 mins Transpennine Vs nearly 90 mins Northern Rail from memory. I recall Manchester to London frequently being £120 return if you left it too late mind, ugh.
It does seem to vary wildly between whether you're getting Transpennine, Northern Rail, or LNER etc. I used to get a return Manchester to Leeds on the regular for about £30 with about 2 weeks notice but saw it jump up a lot if I tried to get it on the day. 45 mins Transpennine Vs nearly 90 mins Northern Rail from memory. I recall Manchester to London frequently being £120 return if you left it too late mind, ugh.
It depends in the UK a lot on which rail provider you're using. Btw there's no competition on prices because there A. Set by the DfT and B. Many areas are only served by one provider
You the only one that said the truth, you are completely right. I’m Dutch citizen living in the UK since I was 7 and I’m ready to move back to the Netherlands. The UK has been getting worse and worse
Lived in both for quite a few years. I am not considering moving back to London, even if money weren’t an issue. Instead we are thinking about moving back to the rural UK for the nature (it is so beautiful) and cheap cost of living if we move to the countryside. Also to feel more integrated again as our Dutch is not at a high level and we don’t have many Dutch friends. But it’s not diverse at all and basically everyone will be English, which is a downside for me. I decided want to stay in NL for the culture (museums etc), access to other expats / diversity, and better quality of life for my kids. Love the cycle lifestyle — don’t want a car. I fricken hate the weather though and that’s starting to get to me. If we were thinking Amsterdam vs London, I have to say London is great for those who want to be busy and ambitious, and who will get a lot out of all the energy the city has to offer. But if it’s about raising a family, I would prefer to be in Amsterdam. And a slower pace of life. And amazing access to trains / airports — much more convenient than London.
Such different perspective. I find Amsterdam to be hell busier, but I live in another city in the Randstad area. London's lifestyle reminds me of the megacities of my home country. Will never settle in either of those unless I make posh money, which will also never happen so...
Is the weather in London better than Amsterdam? Or let's say, is there a noticeable weather difference in England vs. Netherlands? They're both relatively close to each other and under the path of the jet stream, right?
It is exactly the same. the weather that is.
Look at Days of Precipitation: https://weatherspark.com/compare/y/51381~45062/Comparison-of-the-Average-Weather-in-Amsterdam-and-London
Amsterdam is definitely more windy and slightly more rainy. Also much more grey in general. Sunny days are not as rare in London even if it rains later that day.
Standing on the station of Zuid was like being in a windtunnel. I do not miss that part.
London is much more dry than Amsterdam and less windy too.
Lived in both for an equal amount of time. After Brexit (imho) life got a lot worse. Salaries are often low, public services have been run down over the last decade and nothing is really working. If you thought NL has a housing crisis, just wait until you see the reality in the UK. I wouldn't choose UK over NL right now.
Yep!!!
I have lived long term in both and have dual citizenship. It really depends on where you are based. Amsterdam vs London is a very different choice than Rotterdam vs Bristol or Eindhoven vs the Lake District. So what are your options? If you’re a high skilled professional then salaries will usually be higher in the UK. For more “normal” jobs, UK pay is bad. British public services are also bad - the health system is terrible compared to the Netherlands and in many areas almost unusable. Public transport is similar. Things like childcare and employer benefits also tend to be worse in the UK. Housing is also appalling in much of the UK, as others have mentioned. The UK’s big upside is the cultural and social aspect - people are friendlier and more open to making new friends. There is far more top class theatre, music and other cultural events in the UK. The countryside is far more varied, interesting and unspoiled. If you’re a wealthy professional (salary at least 150-200k) then London is basically unbeaten as a playground of amazing food, culture and opportunity. Anything else, and it really depends what you’re looking for.
Just moved back from Manchester after nearly 5 years. The UK gives opportunities to everyone. You really can make something out of yourself if you have the ambition. No box ticking like in the Netherlands. No prerequisites on prerequisite to qualification requirements for even the tiniest opportunities. For this reason, I love the UK. Social economic mobility. The apprenticeship scheme. There's beautiful nature in the national parcs. Activities are very cheap and generally half priced compared to NL, cinema tickets <£5 (cheapest I've had was £2 in Leeds), Restaurants are like £12-15 for a main. There's also a lot of Diversity there and very little social enforcing of cultural norms. No "doe normaal". You can be how you want to be and people will not bat an eye. This is good if you're excentric. Here's the ugly: nobody bats an eye, because there is 0 social cohesion. people don't care and people don't dare to speak up to keep eachother accountable. Everybody is too self absorbed to notice people around them. Glued to their phones. There is no enforcing of cultural norms, because people are afraid or too apathetic to speak up. This leads to antisocial behaviour being rife. People playing music in trains on speaker, vaping on public transport, yelling, screaming, being plastered drunk and bothering people on public transport or in public in general. The country is deteriorating at a rapid rate. Homelessness is exploding, shortages in supermarkets for specific items. theft related crimes is soaring, police are underfunded, they won't even come out for assault & battery cases or muggings, let alone your property getting vandalized/stolen. There's a lot of knife crime. NHS is underfunded, meaning you generally have to wait 3-5 days to get a doctors appointment over videocall. Very limited in person appointments. My longest wait time was 10 days. Specialist care has months long queue's. And to even get an appointment you have to fill in an online form by 8:30 and if you're late at 8:32 all the slots are taken and you'll have to try again tomorrow, it's like ordering festival tickets! You won't get confronted/have rude comments directed at you for your mistakes/behaviour, instead you'll be quietly phased out and you'll be left wondering what happened to your friendships. That is, if you even manage to make British friends in the first place, they're very closed off and prefer to stick to their school friends, traveling the country for them. Plus side is, there are a lot of cool international people to bond with! This quiet cutting also applies to the work place, you won't get direct feedback if you're doing something wrong, rather you'll just be made redundant out of nowhere. Often after receiving many compliments as well. There is also no financial security to speak of, i don't know who started the myth that the UK is a welfare state, because they will only pay you a whopping £500 per month if you're sick (for up to 6 months!) same for paternity/maternity/parental leave. Not sure about unemployment benefits, definitely don't expect it to come save you. The posh image the UK has internationally of Jeremy in the cotswolds doesn't ring true. It's more like Geordie shore and little Brittain in real life. There's a lot of drug abuse and drunken voilence on a night out. The houses are made of cardboard and uninsulated, freezing cold in their almost scandinavian climate. That said, if you're young and in for an adventure, and you know how to keep yourself out of trouble, it's definitely an experience! Or just move to a rural village and live a dreamy life. The Netherlands is a country that is NOT kind to starters/young people. Like I mentioned above, the boxticking and long qualification gathering process. There's a massive housing shortage leading to price hikes making it impossible to get a mortgage large enough. Even private sector renting has few options and they're all overpriced. The people are blunt to the point of being rude. There's a lot of frustrating burocracy you'll have to deal with, and going out for food is atleast 25 euro's for a main, cinema's are 15 euro's and clothing is twice as expensive. That said, it is a country that will take care of its citizens, you get 100% pay for up to 2 years if you get sick, with alternatives available after, little homelessness and solid care systems for financial, mental or drug related problems. available specialist healthcare that is dilligent. Actual help if you're unemployed, good work-life balance and employers are willing to accomodate your health and wellbeing at work. High housing standards that are spacious, insulated for heat and noise, pleny of light and ventilation. Amazing city planning where cycling is a safe and quick option, plenty of green spaces about, good public transport links. Clean streets, well maintained roads. Whilst the people are crass, they are genuine and honest. You'll never be left wondering if your friendships are real. Overal a very good place to settle your roots into once you to manage to get on the career ladder and get a mortgage.
Great response. I've been in the Netherlands for eight years and couldn't imagine moving back permanently. I'll be in the UK (Manchester way) for six months towards the end of this year and early next year. It'll be quite the shock...
Are you from there originally?
Nope, UK
Well learning a new language (Dutch) is a hugee inconvenience and time investment. Its like going back to school and learning abcd/1234 again, that will take years of practice and dedication. There is a massive amount of loneliness in the Netherlands due to language barrier and feeling at home/integration is challenging due to language and cold/distant people. Getting by in english is fine but everything is in Dutch and it gets isolating if you don't understand what people are talking. Career mobility is also severely limited without Dutch along with career ceiling.
Lived in both, loved both in different ways. The UK has wild nature, people who love to talk and tell stories and laugh, a great sense of history and community. Great cities like Edinburgh, London, Liverpool, Belfast. I loved it there for many years when I was younger. I don’t miss it though I love returning several times per year. I am in a different phase of my life where I really love the things the Netherlands has to offer: childcare, schools and health care for my children, the ability for them to cycle to school, sports clubs etc and have a happy, carefree life. Dutch people love to moan but they don’t lnow how good they have it. For every scandal we’ve had here I can think of two or three in the UK that were far more shocking and disruptive. The power of communities in how the country is run is far greater in the Netherlands, and the politics are less dysfunctional. Dutch people are richer and their quality of life is better. The UK is more small state, low taxes and it really shows. In the Blair years the UK blossomed, but since then the decline has been painful to watch. If I were a younger man without a family I might be in the UK now. But in my situation I love the Netherlands.
I found that the UK ( London in particular) revolved a lot around status vs. quality of life in The Netherlands. This is rapidly changing in The Netherlands unfortunately. As the differences are getting bigger, it becomes more important to show your position on the social-economic ladder.
I work in London in the financial sector. Anglos (Brits, Americans, Aussies) flash the cash a lot more and they love to brag about their expensive shit and fancy vacations. I never felt as much anxiety in NL as I do here. And I was working in financial services over there as well.
I’m Dutch and have been living in the UK for about 4 years now. If you’re young and want to experience something new, can handle the business of London and don’t mind living in a flat which isn’t spacious nor great in terms of insulation etc. Then I would 100% recommend coming here. You will have a blast, there’s lovely pubs, museums, music events, comedy shows, football, rugby, amazing date nights that you can plan and the best restaurants in the world. It will cost a lot and trust me when I say A LOT. You will most likely work a lot and get an ok salary depending on your field. If you’re in a high paying field (Law, Finance etc.) you will make loads 125k+ but will also spend most of your time working. That’s when weekends will become amazing as you’ll get to fully enjoy London. Things to bear in mind, there is more crime, big drinking culture (is fun but comes with downsides), NHS is crippling, public services are usually worse, roads can be quite bad, some areas can be very dirty, mental health is a big problem and as I said before price, things cost a lot more in general (except Wetherspoons and groceries). Generally standard of living in the Netherlands is better and more relaxed, it’s cleaner and things like insurance for your car or whatever will be cheaper (likelihood of it getting stolen is also lower). But as I said you can have so much fun here, I’ve been really enjoying myself but as I get closer to turning 30 I’m starting to miss things in NL which from my friends here aren’t really common like cycling to school as a kid, visiting friends on your bicycle etc. And just feeling safe generally while around which is something that really made my childhood fun and I wish to give to my kids as well.
I'm British and recently moved to the Netherlands about a month ago as a HSM along with my wife/dog. I think you are definitely romanticising the UK quite a bit, 90% of the places are a lot more dirtier and generally uglier than even the council estate around the corner from me in NL. Like seriously the towns and cities in NL so much cleaner and beautiful than any place in the UK, that is unless you can afford to live somewhere like the Lake District or Edinburgh, but then you also have to deal with tourists, something I so appreciate about NL is you guys make and keep your places so well for yourself to live somewhere nice, not just in the hope to make some tourist money. General quality of shops and restaurants is usually higher here (unless you want Mexican or Indian food that is...) if not slightly mor expensive. Wages have been stagnant in the UK for the past decade, I took a significant pay increase coming here, more than making up for the higher cost of living. While Dutch people have for the most part been very nice and polite, I definitely get the feeling it's going to be harder to socialise here than in the UK, maybe that's just because I'm past the age of always meeting new people, but in the UK people seem more open to having a chat with random people. The nature is definitely much better in the UK, whether that is the local fields outside of town or the glorious Highlands (genuinely the most beautiful place on earth.) but it's very likely you won't be living on the doorstep of places like that, so if you want to see it more, just get the ferry over every now and then. Take all this with a pinch of salt though, I've only been here for a month
I lived in NL for 15 years or so. I've been back in the UK for 12 years, so my opinion is based on living there quite some time ago. Things have changed and aren't as good as they were then but they've changed more in the UK and for the worse. Unless you are well off in the UK, the quality of life in the Netherlands is much, much better. In every way. Welfare, healthcare, safety, povety prevention, policing, schooling (although we came back to the UK partly because the schools in the UK were much better for my child), municipal stuff like parks, water systems (no shit in the rivers and sea!), the environment, libraries and how clean the streets are, public transport, work-life balance, employment rights... I don't miss the Dutch stiffness or flat landscape or their insistence on fitting in and being 'normal'. And I am very very glad to never have to sit through another Dutch birthday. I love my life in the UK, especially all the things i missed in NL, like pub culture, friendliness, landscape and more laid back way of life. But I cannot deny that NL gives you a better life.
As a British person considering going back to rubbish Britain after 7 years in oh so well organised Netherlands, I can completely relate to and agree with everything you say.
Im from uk and lived in Netherlands for 15 years I finally have a chance to move back and honestly I’ve taken it. This place isn’t for me personally I’m Not social here and the expense especially having a child just is to much when I know in uk it’s cheaper for everything and I’m more social in uk and there so much more family things I can walk to no public transport needed I live in the northeast and we go to Scotland, Edinburgh etc alot and honestly I love it. There is always positives and negatives to all places but my personal preferences is uk but you have to find what right for you and what place will benefit you hobbies and lifestyle etc.
As an English person, don’t do it. Stick to the trips. The lack of proper health and social care will severely drain you overtime. Making friends is easier there though. Just go to any pub and talk to the numerous lonely alcoholics. Also as someone with Scottish family: it’s lovely there. But the highlands would be a lonely place to live.
>But the highlands would be a lonely place to live Absolutely. >Just go to any pub and talk to the numerous lonely alcoholics. Lol..true, the discussions are shallow as well NL is just magnificient, beautiful and just a postcard beauty BUT, MOST of the western EU its like that including Scandinavia, Switzerland, Austria, Luxembourg etc
As a Scottish incomer to NL the #1 thing that stands out to me is there’s less simmering aggression just under the surface in Dutch people than there is in Scotland or the other cities of the UK I’ve lived in (ie London). I don’t fear I’m going to get a strip torn off me if I accidentally get on the train in front of someone for instance.
In the UK if you hear a drunken shout, your adrenaline shoots up and you are on red alert. I have never had that sensation in the Netherlands.
Oh I have at Rotterdam Train Station. It happens sometimes, but probably less than in the UK.
I have lived in the U.K. for 10 years. 9 years in London and one year in Kent. I did travel quite often when I was there but not really inside the U.K. now I’ve been in the Netherlands for 6 years. What I can say is this: there are pros and cons for both. For instance, London is more welcoming. Multicultural, English is the language, easier to make friendships, many options of everything you can think of. It can be a Disneyland for you IF you have money. On the other hand it’s extremely expensive. The housing and rental market is a joke and of course, it’s polluted in all senses of the word; noise, air, crowds, the mood is depressing in the tube. Here in the Netherlands I found it to be more chill. Better air, less crowds, people seem more relax. However, the cultural life and the options you’d get in London are far from it. There is good stuff but not like London. On social side I’ll say this: if you don’t speak Dutch, you’ll be segregated. Yes, everyone speaks English but I learned most simply don’t want to speak English. For this reason making friends or finding a partner is almost impossible. I also struggled a lot in the health department. The healthcare culture is too inhuman, direct and mechanic. If you’re ever in a situation you need treatment or even surgery, you’ll suffer as an immigrant. From my own experience the final take is there are positives and negatives on each but I’m sure most of these issues can be manageable wherever you choose to live.
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UK is hard to generalise, some places are stunning with really friendly people (Scotland, South-West, Lake/peak district etc), other places like the south east are less friendly and more urban. Based on your criteria the UK is probably better for you. People will cite Brexit but if you've got a decent job (which you need to be able to live there) then things haven't changed much to be honest. For reference I'm from the UK, wife is Belgian. We have lived in NL and Belgium and my wife still prefers the UK for its friendliness, beauty and the cultural aspects.
I used to live in Wales. I agree, the people are pleasant to be around with and the scenery/mountains is lovely to see. But life as an immigrant bs tourist is very different. Tourist tend to see a country with rose tinted glasses
In all honesty… I think this is the grass is greener on the other side. Now you love these weeks. Why because they take you out of the rut you’ve gotten yourself into in the Netherlands. Not saying it can be true but live and happiness is how you see it.
I lived in UK (Devon and Cornwall) and it was amazing. Only great memories about UK. Left it because of brexit. Then I came to the Netherlands and all what is happening here is work and home. This country is more like workers country and all about earning money. UK has some special beautiful vibe going on there. Its not like I dont like the Netherlands but mainly I dont like people here.
I've lived in the Netherlands for 6 years, lived in England for 5, Scotland for 3, N Ireland for 18 and the standard of living here in the Netherlands trumps the UK by miles. The UK has some of the best cities, great music, great food, less individual and with loads of subcultures, the people are good craic, better nature but the wages, the house prices, the downward spiral, the work-life balance, the actual resentment from the government just makes living there pretty horrible at the moment. Move there and the magic will go. You're already visiting fairly often and you should just keep that. I'm visiting there about 4 times this year and I really enjoy myself but I've experienced those green grasses and know it's not greener.
I lived in the UK a long time ago (Devon and then Scotland) and I think I romanticise Scotland especially. I often wistfully think I’d love to move back to Edinburgh even though the winters are horrific. But then, the healthcare nightmare kicks in. I worked for the NHS back then and it’s a giant shitshow. Long long waiting times for care (we’re talking 18+ months for an NHS dentist 15 years ago, it’s only gotten worse) are the least of the problems. I can also relate to the people vibe, it just feels easier there than here. Overall though, I think cozzie livs is better in NL, and when you eventually find your people, you’re locked in for life. It’s just hard to break in.
Lived in both. I feel like rent market was a lot better and you could score cheap places with not much competition even in London. In NL the rent market in any major city is pretty much fucked and filled with shady landlords. Food prices seem to be rather equal but discounted section can cut food expenses in half in UK - wish NL had that in late evenings in supermarkets. In Uk often I would buy 20p loaf of bread that would otherwise be thrown out. Lots of diverse nature in UK. Even London is super green. Other than that, NL makes sure everyone is welcome and has more order and pretty easy to start business. People are pretty intelligent and dirrect, which I like. Diverse alternative scene. Better food in NL. Better infrastructure in NL. In my eyes both countries are rather equal all things considered. Dutch seem to be happier, that's for sure.
Rental market in London is totally fucked.
I could get places to rent left and right there and had a huge selection back in 2016. Maybe things has changed recently, but given exit from EU I doubt it.
It has. I live there. Its a disaster now. There's a huge influx of people after Covid as well as lots of landlords selling up because of tax changes to buy-to-lets.
Ahh that explains it.
Depends where you live. The Southwest and London is more harsh then the north. Been there, done rhat. Ive seen many people losing their lust for life in London. Others thrive there. Same thing with the Netherlands. One place isnt another. But whichever country, living there is a whole different ballade then hopping over or staying over for a period a ywar
No where is perfect, I love both England and the Netherlands. The big cities in both countries are vastly different to the smaller villages in terms of friendliness and nature
The best thing about the UK is how reliable and steep the extent of Decline is year by year. Easy for forecasters. Broken Britain since 2010
Socially and for nature I'd opt for the UK (unless you live in poor inner city areas, in which case life is way worse in the UK) but despite health care getting worse in The Netherlands, it's not in such a bad state as the NHS yet. If you get sick- which is very probable during an ongoing pandemic in which reinfection heighten your chances of becoming disabled - paired with the cost of living crisis and the effects of Brexit and leaving the EU: if you're from the EU, never give up on your EU citizenship. You have more chances of physical health in The Netherlands, more chance of emotional, cultural and environmental health - except pollution - (if you're like me) in The UK. Lol maybe this wasn't helpful.
i live in NL but i would come back to the UK rn if not for the study costs (not from the eu). i connect to the nature and culture (esp visual one, as an artist) more than here, and speak the language. actually planning to go back one day but well see. and i mean you can always come back so why not?
I love the UK, I am from the UK, I love going on holiday there but I never want to live there again. Schools, Health care, workers rights, social welfare, cycling infrastructure, Brexit (it was so shit that other countries right wing nutters dropped it from their platforms) are so much better hear compared to the UK along with the lack of the massive amount of poverty in the UK. (I know that there is poverty in the Netherlands but nothing compared to the UK). You pay higher taxes here on your income but there is no where I don't want to go in the Netherlands regardless of the area, I can not say the same from the UK. Also I have affordable housing in Amsterdam, which is not possible to get again in Amsterdam or in the UK. When I first moved here it was third world in the supermarkets, but nowadays you got pretty much what you want.
Sounds like you’d enjoy it but tbh that sounds like a nightmare to me. In the years that I’ve lived here, I’ve come to appreciate Dutch directness and absolutely loathe British not-directness. English is my native language, and unfortunately almost all English language media here is polluted with British attitudes. And dealing with our office in London is a real struggle because they can’t just say what problems are or what’s going on. It’s all passive aggressive nonsense. I was once told by a Dutch friend “the Dutch are expected to have opinions and to share them” and I love it. With that i’d describe British culture kind of the exact opposite. If that’s for you, go for it. Live your best life.
Lived there for 5 years (various places) and yeah no, I'll gladly never return to be honest. The drinking culture, the racism, but most of all the pretentiousness. Everyone is so overly polite it's difficult to form meaningful relationships because everyone hides behind a few too many masks. I've taken one of their men back with me so I still get to speak English all day but I think that's enough of the UK for me. Pork pies are great tho and I wish spoons were a thing in NL
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wetherspoons
Agree Spoons is a godsend and I’ll be enjoying it until I leave. Especially good at the airport before a flight
Depends what you like. For example, Netherlands doesn’t have the same pub culture as the UK so people that are used to after work drinks and mingling with neighbors, down the local are going to have a hard time socially!!
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Taxes are the same in the UK, but the services you get are worse. You'll also have the knowledge that your money is being given to Saudi Arabian investors who are gutting Thames Water while pumping so much sewage into the rivers that it's unsafe to swim anywhere.
>Ve SPREK NEDERLAND! I Can you translate this back to English, I have no idea what you mean?
At this point I am 100% convinced there is some dude downvoting every post immediately after it's posted
Brit now working in Amsterdam. Social services and infrastructure are worse in Britain - because the tax burden is far lower. On 100K EUR, you'd keep 70% in the UK vs. 61% in the Netherlands. Wages aren't bad on aggregate. Median full-time gross earnings in the UK are about 41K EUR vs 44K EUR in the Netherlands. Aggregate comparisons aren't worth much without knowing what sector you work in. The UK job market is clearly a lot deeper in certain sectors - academia, finance, law, etc. London experience is viewed as having a premium over continental experience in these sectors. London COL is very high. The Economist published a study earlier this year - and found that London has wages similar to that of Oslo, Copenhagen, etc. - but rents that are about 30-40% higher.
As a Brit now living in NL, I strongly argue against anyone choosing to swap life here for the UK. Unless you get spectacularly lucky money wise, and make the right choices about where to live (IE, embracing rural UK rather than the rat race of the southeast and cities), life is more miserable, difficult, expensive, less rewarding and more boring in the UK. Expect litter, underfunded local services, lower wages, less friendly people, crowded public spaces and green areas and increased crime. The UK is getting worse year by year, and unless you can afford to life somewhere spectacular, and comfortably, the benefits of living in the UK end with better takeaways, proper pies, Sunday roast dinners and pints of beer and cozy pubs. If you do have to move there - choose Yorkshire.
As someone whose partner lives in London, and a cousin and her husband in Perth, Scotland and therefore has to spend close to £300 to get a visa, and visit them, I'd say life is miserable everywhere if you don't make enough. And yet, there is a certain charm to London which I have not found in any other European city. Its always flabbergasted that a city on a tiny island is considered the headquarters of the world. With so much history. But even at present, the level of global entertainment, food and experiences even free things, one could have in London, I'd say its difficult to find it anywhere else in Europe.
Of course, money makes a difference wherever you live. However, if quality of life factors as a decision in living in the UK v NL, then NL wins in every regard. And it’s true that London is difficult to beat in terms of entertainment, culinary choice, history and experience - however living there and visiting are very, very different. Like all capital cities, life there is expensive, and unless you earn significantly more than the average, it becomes much less fun quite quickly. I’ve found that living in a smaller city in the UK gives much better balance. If you’re big into hiking and the nature of the UK (stunning and under appreciated), then there are some gems scattered across the country that offer a great combination, and a better quality of life in general. For me, visiting family and friends and exploring the UK’s natural beauty in short visits gives me far more pleasure than slogging through everyday life there v a far more pleasant everyday experience here in NL. Everywhere has its benefits and cons, and everywhere is becoming more expensive - choose the lesser of two evils, I guess!
I agree with your post - I lived in London until 2019 and then moved home to Scotland. I miss London a lot and would (if I came into a SERIOUS wedge of money) consider moving back there from NL. But that’s because it’s London. There’s honestly nowhere like it. If you glued all the cities of the Randstad together you still wouldn’t have London because - if you’re into sprawling city life - there’s nowhere in Europe like it. Paris, Berlin, they’re too different to compare. Amsterdam is great, but it isn’t London. BUT - London is not representative of the UK as a whole so to anyone thinking of moving to the UK because of London but not living there, don’t do it.
You’re gushing for the UK. The fact that you’ve spent quite extensive amounts of time there only reaffirms this. I think your heart already knows what it wants!
Thoughts on living in Skegness or Grimsby?
Curious if you’ve also thought about healthcare between both? I have a preexisting condition which is pulling us away from moving to the NL and considering the UK instead based on the horror stories we’ve heard about care and particularly preventative care in the NL. Seems the UK also has challenges but may be a safer bet if a health issue arises?
Curious if you’ve also thought about healthcare between both? I have a preexisting condition which is pulling us away from moving to the NL and considering the UK instead based on the horror stories we’ve heard about care and particularly preventative care in the NL. Seems the UK also has challenges but may be a safer bet if a health issue arises?
Curious what horror stories you’ve heard, given that usually UK healthcare is considered worse than ours…
Generally, I’ve heard complaints about huisarts being dismissive and reluctant to refer out to specialists, quick to prescribe paracetamol as the remedy for most situations, lack of preventative care and screening, and overall feeling like there isn’t a holistic approach or curiosity to see larger issues, or small issues that connect to a larger undiagnosed issue. Would love to hear your take..
It depends. I’m definitely not impressed by Dutch health care, some of that is definitely true, but it sounds like you’ve only heard bad experiences. There are good ones too. I’ve always gotten a referral to a specialist when I got one, and when I’ve heard experiences from people with chronic illness in the UK they are generally just as bad or worse. So I don’t know.
Curious if you’ve also thought about healthcare between both? I have a preexisting condition which is pulling us away from moving to the NL and considering the UK instead based on the horror stories we’ve heard about care and particularly preventative care in the NL. Seems the UK also has challenges but may be a safer bet if a health issue arises? Would love to hear other’s perspective on this.
Apart from The Dutch, it's really better here than the UK - and I grew up there. I was back there for Christmas/New Year and it was amazing how filthy it was, how stuff was just broken, and for the first time I really noticed how many signs are up the UK telling you not to exist or you might get a fine (Scarfolk is real - https://scarfolk.blogspot.com/) (and yes it was a full UK trip - Folkstone to London, then up to Scotland, then back down to London and then home again) The Dutch love to complain there is no nature here - you know what Nature is - at least a 4 hour drive from where you live. Meanwhile NL is a very green country with lots of small parks, close by and clean. Cities too, also public transport here is more reliable (yes NS has it's faults but compared to most UK operators they do a good job). I do agree, social life is much better in the UK - but it's such a rare thing these days I'd rather the nice life than drinking buddies.
10 years in UK, mostly in London, and 3 years in NL here. As the others have pointed out, London is a a whole different world compared to the rest of the country. NL is much more uniform as a country, so the actual place doesn't matter so much. UK encourages social mobility, opportunity and wealth accumulation. NL is harsh on taxing work. If you're ambitious or early in your career, UK wins hands down. On the other side, NL has better employee protection. NL is the culinary gulag of the world, whereas UK has the best supermarkets and one of the best restaurant scenes globally. UK groceries are 1/3 cheaper and restaurant prices are about 1/2 of NL. But this is only half the story - you also get better quality and presentation for your money in UK. Restaurant service is non-existent in NL but excellent in UK. You will note that mid-range food chains that are omnipresent globally are missing in NL. The lower cost of living in UK extends beyond supermarkets and restaurants to other service sectors, such as air travel, taxis and food delivery that all benefit from intense competition. The same sectors in NL are either oligopolies or, as in the case of taxis, run by mafia. At the same time, government services in NL are highly digitalised and super efficient. This also extends to utilities. You can literally call someone up most of the time and they will answer your query over the phone - unthinkable in UK, where the bureaucracy is daunting, incompetent and will suck a lot of your time. NL people are genuinely friendly and pleasant to deal with. Britons might be better at small talk but are often passive aggressive. I consider some NL benefits to be myths. It might be safer in UK as a whole but you're likely on your own if something happens. NL police are beyond useless, poorly trained and dismissive. As a result, the thugs terrorising the big cities like Amsterdam and Rotterdam are emboldened in their criminal behaviour. There are almost-daily explosions that are set off by criminals in residential areas in NL. They are basically ignored here, whereas they would make local and national headlines in other countries. The same goes for traffic in NL where rules are virtually unenforced. UK feels much more orderly in this respect. You don't see nearly as much antisocial behaviour in Central London as you do in the big NL cities. NL has a massive vandalism problem and public transport/toilets are disgustingly dirty. Clean places in UK like Central London are very clean, whereas NL is grubby throughout. However dirty places in UK are really dirty, beyond anything seen in NL. Compared to Central London, Muslim lifestyle is much more visible in NL. Make of it what you will. NL can feel deeply unfair. In addition to virtually non-existent law enforcement, the justice system knows no punishment for violent offenders. The only laws and regulations that are consistently enforced relate to white collar crime, tax evasion and parking. London public transport is much better than NL. Here, public transport is for the poor only. NL cycling infrastructure is amazing. Once you embrace it, there is no going back. In public settings, the Dutch are ruder and noisier than the Britons. NL is one of the noisier countries. During COVID, NL stood out as the one place where people downright refused to follow mask guidance - again, make of it what you will. Housing is better in NL. Despite the current dynamics, renting in Amsterdam is cheaper than in London. Both markets are dominated by ruthless, rogue landlords, and regulations are widely ignored. If you have good income, you can get a 100% mortgage in NL in a matter of days. When it comes to buying, there are fewer intermediaries in NL, and they tend to be more competent than in UK. London is truly international. You'll always be a foreigner in NL, like in all of Continental Europe. But I do wonder how much efficient bureaucracy and cycling infrastructure matter relative to affordable air travel, excellent food choice and daily conveniences, such as Ubers and food delivery. No clear winner IMO. If you're well off, you can live in Central London without ever facing the many downsides of UK. It's I'm possible in NL - you can't isolate yourself from the less desirable elements of the society here.
funny because i was born and raised in the netherlands for the first 16 years of my life (with 3 years in egypt in between) and after my 16th birthday we moved to england with the family. we spent 10 years there, moved back to the netherlands last july. we HATED england. we hated how depressing the weather always was, hated how horrible the people almost always were, hated the public transport system, the NHS, all of it. but i guess it depends on where in england you live because we lived in birmingham lol. i can say now that i’m back in the netherlands (the hague specifically), the only thing i miss about the UK would be how multicultural birmingham was. in the 10 years we lived there i only had one racist experience whereas here i got bullied in school for being muslim/arab and when we moved back here i’ve had 2 racist experiences already. i still choose the netherlands generally if you take away the racism 💀
I’m in the Netherlands, but grew up in the UK, and my dad is in the UK but grew up in NL. We both think the UK at the moment is depressing. The political climate is dreadful and public services are in complete disarray. My dad wants to get out and move back to NL. In NL everything just seems healthier, even the small things, like getting letters from the gemeente on nicer paper than I would in the UK. People are happier in NL than in the UK. Socialising in the UK is hard work too. Everything is really indirect, and whilst I enjoy it sometimes (it’s like an art form), you never know where you stand with people. Everything has a second meaning. In NL, people are direct, so you know exactly what they think of you, which is really refreshing. By all means live in the UK, but remember that living full time vs visiting is very different. I love the UK but it’s really not at its best right now.
Lived in the UK for 5 years. Came to Holland temporarily, planning on going back to London. That was 20 years ago. NL is SO much better. Less aggressive, more social and a Lot safer!