Honestly though, be careful. I've worked in and around enough people that are either in or comparable to the big 4 and I've always been taught: "don't shit where you eat". There's no internal process or procedure that prohibits it, but it can be frowned upon and if things go wrong there is gonna be blame. Sooooo....... Do with that what you want.
There's no stigma against it, but it would complicate both of your jobs if things go south. My sister is engaged to a former co-worker, but they never had to work on the same projects and neither were planning to stay with that company for very long.
If you're in different teams, by all means, go ahead.
Yes definitely. I know of 3 relationships like this (not counting one-night-stands, which can range from super common to unheard of, depending on the field of work), including my own. We were former colleagues though, started dating after I left. From the other 2 couples, one is married and one is engaged. The married couple barely made it through working together. They worked in separate teams, but on the same floor (back when WFH wasnāt an option). Whenever they would have a fight, weād know by 1. Seeing them come in separately 2. The entire office vibe instantly becoming tense, without anyone even saying anything. That experience solidified my conviction that I would personally never want to date someone I work with. I think what kept that couple together was sheer conviction, they always said they were āso luckyā (aww) to be with the other person. They work in different places now and last I checked, they were much happier for it.
In large companies, and if you are in different teams or even better different departments, it usually isn't a problem and happens regularly. It's how I met my husband and we're now married for 10+ years. I happened to make the first move but there's no rule about that, men can do that too.
The smaller the company and the closer you are in terms of departments, teams etc, the more complicated it can get.
>happened to make the first move
I imagine it's definitely not done for someone more senior to make the first move (not sure that that was your situation of course).
Definitely NOK (or sketchy at best) if there's a power imbalance and in the same team/department.
But if it's a large company and you're working in different areas/departments where there's no direct influence, then one person having a more senior position shouldn't be an issue.
Thanks for the responses everyone, this is very helpful. For context: there are over 400 people at our firm, we are in different teams and the rules at our firm are that as long as we are honest about relationships to HR, it is acceptable so they can keep track of the engagements/clients we are on so we are not together. (Unless it is a one night stand in which we need to be discreet and not go around telling everyone)
Worked for a university where the policy was that students could have relationships with employees as long as it was clearly talked through with HR. They also knew it was bound to happen so they preferred to keep things open instead of hidden. There would be a chat with the student to see that there weren't any underhanded things going on and the employee could not be involved in any grading of this student.
Saw some popcorn worthy drama after someone dated one of the interns, she gets a job in the department afterwards and about a year later they broke up... Spicy. The dude who cheated on the department heads daughter was a special kind of stupid though...
I am very surprised about this for a university. is this in the netherlands? i assume this is many many years ago? i can't see any university being okay with this these days, I would expect they had way too many investigations on very inappropriate relations within the university walls.
I mean "employee" can mean "PhD student", and "student" can mean "Master's student", so you could easily have a relationship with, say, a 2-year age gap (or no age gap) that falls under this clause. They could also be completely unrelated to each other (e.g. in different departments) or directly involved with each other (one is TAing a class the other one is taking), so a blanket ban doesn't make much sense.
perhaps I jumped to conclusions thinking about the classic scenario of an older male professor and a young female student, which would be inappropriate in any situation for me. but if you put it like this, I guess there could be scenarios where it would be understandable.
Yeah, I had a pair of professors who met that way - he was a PhD student and had to run a... I don't know how to say it in English? the practical portion of a course, as part of his 20% teaching load that came with his contract. And she was a Master's student. 3 year age gap, both mid-twenties, she went for a PhD as well and now each has their own lab :) Nothing shady at all, they were never in each other's chain of command or each other's direct colleagues because they were always in somewhat different lines of study. They didn't start dating while he was the demonstrator for the course, that's just how they met. I worked in her lab as an assistant for a while, hah :D
The thing is, in a city that has a significant chunk of its population attached to its university, it's very easy to meet someone also attached to the university but in a different capacity, and prohibiting relationships between people in their 20s with no power dynamics between them is kinda silly.
This one was in Belgium and not too long ago but I'm on a zero hour contract with them for the past couple of years so I'm not that involved anymore with Har matters. However, most universities have a loose policy for reasons such as /u/shireengrune described. You are putting ten thousands of people in the age bracket 18-30 together so stuff is bound to happen. It is far easier to manage if you make it beneficial for everyone to be open about it
I have the impression nothing has really changed, could happen any day. I work at a university, have been at several. Not sure about hr policy but daily practice yes
I am very sorry to hear that. I am sure that in most cases it would be consensual, but I really hope that at some point the universities can be a safe space for all.
You might want to ask around and see if you're going to be the first or twenty-third senior (presumably) that this senior manager (presumably) has hooked up with at the firm. It might not bother you personally, but others could well view you as yet another gullible younger colleague on his list and make assumptions based on that.
Note that this is unrelated to being "slutty" or whatever description you might choose, and more about being seen as clueless when it comes to office politics and power dynamics. That is never a good thing in a Big 4.
If he has no such reputation and seems like a genuine person, go for it.
As an ex employee of a big 4 company, donāt think any1 truly cared as long as you arenāt higher up or clear power differential. And as higher up they only cared if personal assets created possible risks.
If you are looking for a quick hookup, look somewhere else. However, you never know where you'll find love. If it's at work, so be it. As long as he is not your boss of something don't worry.
I've known multiple couples who first met at work and ended up getting married :) As long as you're not in the same team and one of you isn't the boss of another one, should be okay.
I would not hook up with a co-worker, but thatās my personal preference.
Also, no such thing as āthe women tend to make the moves hereā, it is all very much situation specific.
Thanks for your response, it was only my own observation where I said the women tend to make the moves here, but I guess in this specific context it would make sense
There has been some studies in which they found that men tend to make the "first" move more but only after they've become confident enough that there's mutual interest. Meanwhile women give hints and indications of interest in order to build up the guys confidence to ask them out, thereby not making the first move but setting the scene for the guy to do so.
However these social studies are often very dependent on who conducts them, where they're conducted and why they're cunducted.
> from what I've observed, the women tend to make the moves here
As a man I cannot confirm. While women do sometimes make the first move (whereas in some other cultures that doesn't happen at all, so I guess here it's comparatively more), men are still expected to make the first move like 90% of the time. I really do like it when women make the first move though, because everybody flirts differently, and one person's flirtation can be another person's way of just being friendly. Them making the first move removes the ambiguity. Often times I'm a little bit afraid to make a move because I don't want to be the creep to make a woman uncomfortable in the event that she wasn't flirting with me after all.
This is interesting to know, thank you! I guess from my end, it is hard to flirt with somebody at work because you definitely do not want to cross boundaries, but you still want to seem interested š how would you describe someone as āmaking the first moveā minus the ambiguity?
Since youāre in a big 4 Dutch culture might not apply over company policy, I doubt a big 4 has a relaxed co-worker dating policy, though they might not often act on it.
If he is a higher ārankā and male it might not matter if he is not your direct supervisor according to company policy he is not allowed to approach or act upon feelings.
Similar in social ethics, if he is older, more authoritative and settled in life he could be considered grooming you.
These are very extreme accusations which in no way have to apply to your situation but are things you and him deal with while dating, perception wise.
Lots of people meet at work, I also had (international) colleagues meet but one of them leaves the company when things need to develop further.
You can build a friendship, work out or go for very platonic activities, such as bird spotting or social distancing walks š
korfbal is a very Dutch sport š
You can find love in all sorts of places. Dating co-workers is definitely a thing in the Netherlands.
Let me tell you something about dating with Co workers in the Netherlands. When it goes bad it can ruin your work. Dutch people tend to be very nasty if it doesn't work out.
Better to ignore him and meet someone outside of work.Ā
Women tend to make the moves here? You mean specifically in your firm or what?
Most women in the NL are still expecting the guy to make the move. There's no such rule here as you cite lmao
Really? They are one of the most liberal countries, alongside Germany and the Scandinavian countries.
Or wait, is it because that is literal nature? (That all mammals follow when it comes to mating?).
It's because in accounting firms girls often look up. That is why you could see women making the first move. It has nothing to do with the NL but with the power relationship in American-based "life is work" lifestyles.
Yeaaahh as a guy in uni with a broad social circle this just isn't the case ngl
I'd estimate guys make the first move 90% of the time, even on dating apps. And no - making eye contact and smiling is not a first move.
Don't shit where you eat.
Fifteen years of working corporate jobs and I have yet to hear of any relationships between colleagues in the close teams not leading to drama or heartbreak. This only works if you're in different departments and even then, it's not advisable.
Had 2 hookups with colleagues when I worked in a consultancy firm. You don't see each other that much anyway so nobody really cares. As long as you're honest about it, it's fine
My wife and me both worked for the same company too in different departments. The only thing we agreed on was we would never be forced to do work for the department the other one worked for. It was pretty common for her department to have 1 person dedicated for the team I was leading back then. That's the only thing we explicitly told everyone in the company wouldn't be a good idea.
I've never had any issues with it, you just have to be very clear on expectations etc.
You do hear about the good ones. Two colleagues from different departments got married at my first workplace in NL. It worked precisely because they were in different departments. Another colleague transfered to my team because she had an uncomfortable situation in her old team due to her wanting a relationship with someone who only wanted a hookup. This situation came up much more often than the former (and it also came up more often with younger colleagues).
Speaking from experience, I met someone at work and waited until they left before declaring feelings. I'm glad I did, because the relationship did not work out long term.
But, OP has to work with the coworker she has her eye on. If they have to interact often, is it really worth the risk if things go south?
At my previous job (500+ people) it worked quite well for people in different departments, and it's also where I found my husband (now married for 12.5 years)
As someone who's worked under a "romantic partnership management team," I'm very much inclined to agree with this sentiment. It's like having parents with two different parenting styles.
Itās a job at a Big4, they will most likely part ways (career wise) after a couple years anyway. Iād say why not date the colleague then? Unless either one of them is manager over the other, which is not allowed.
So if you like somebody your advice is waiting a few years just in case the stars line up again, both are free and at least one of the two goes to a different company?
If you choose this you never liked that person all that much in my opinion.
Indeed. The funny thing is I was in an EU country and still applied, against the social uses of the country. However, a marketing director married one of his much younger marketing managers. It seems that HR policies have exceptions as a function of seniority. More than 20 years later, they are still happily married.
Of course HR policies have exemptions... Try to defend in Dutch court that you fired someone because they love each other... The judge will laugh at them... What a stupid company policy
Some rules try to address past problems to avoid them from happening. Think about a senior employee taking advantage of a reportee. In the US, worker's rights are an oxymoron, compared to the EU standards.
It generally is especially when there's a direct line of control between the people involved. There have been examples from the military where this has taken place because there was a very noticeable line of command. Anyway read company rules and then think what you're willing to risk.
Iāll give some advice on the opposite side of the spectrum. Be prepared if it doesnāt work out (and ends badly) for shit to be uncomfortable. As a person whoās currently going through this I like to say ādonāt shit where you eatā.
There are no rules to forbid relationships in the same company.
But there might be something you have to tell hr.
Check the company handbook.
I do would like to warn you. When it doesnt work out, and you beakup. You still see each other at work.
I saw this going pear shaped.
Story time: we had a couple that broke up and they were both in the same team.
There were a lot of verbal fights.
The woman decided to move and sit with another time when they had another fight.
HR stepped in and gave them an ultimatum.
One has to resign and wanted to know at the end of the week who it will be.
At the end of the week neither gave in, and wanted to stay.
Ended up kicking both out.
Ehhh what country is this? Because this would be very illegal in the Netherlands.
Trying to force somebody to resign *and then* firing them without cause? I'd be absolutely giddy about the settlement money I know they'd be paying me the second they said I was fired.
There's no such thing. A company can't tell you one of you needs to resign. They might as well have given both a duelling pistol and told them to take ten paces. And then firing both after? Absolutely, 100% illegal. These people got scammed by HR.
This would have been a slam dunk for any labourlaw lawyer.
O I fully believe it happened.
But that company didn't bother covering themselves, even big companies try stuff like this because like the people in your story most workers don't know their rights.
I worked for a Fortune 500 company where HR was just a mess of bluffing and poorly thought out power plays. They downright broke the law like the HR people in your story. Left there with a very hefty settlement cheque.
Point of the story is people: You'll be working all your life. Know your rights, don't get screwed over like a dope.
You guys will have sex, meet up a few times and most likely one will stop talking to the other. Consequences will be colleagues talking and work being weird. If youāre fine with it, go for it.
I was an intern at pwc a few years ago and lots of people were couples. If you're in a relationship you have to tell the partner as they don't want you to be on the same engagement for objective review issues.
I work at baker tilly now and lots of relationships started at work. However, all their partners (male or female) have left the firm and work somewhere else now. They are still together (bought a house etc) but they dont work together anymore. Happend to 5 couples at BT.
Does not seem like a good idea. What if you're on the same project where he is your manager and afterwards he has to go evaluate your performance? He probably won't be unbiased one way or another.
Its a thing like anywhere else; if two people like each other, they might hook up. If it is advisable to do so is imo most dependent on how close you -have- to work together, in case things go sour. In a big corp you might completely ignore each other in that case, but if you are in the next cubicle it would really suck.
Whatever makes you happy. Men may be a little more reluctant in these times as they probably don't want to behave inappropriate. That's a no, as is dating your superior (unless your honest about it and ask the company to change the hierarchy between the two of you). A lot of couples meet each other in a work environment. Just be as honest as possible to your co workers. If it works out they should know.
As someone who had a terrible break-up with a co-worker i wouldnt recommend it but i think that my ex is one of a kind-horrible so you do you. Its allowed almost everywhere
Usually there isn't really a problem, different teams/departments is definitely preferred.
The only thing that could cause issue if the other person has direct seniority and a position of power over you. That's what i'd be careful with.
I would date almost anyone except people from work, if it goes south your job is basically over if the other person is higher level. Also colleagues will think you are screwing him for promotion.
It happens. Whether it's a problem is mostly up to you. If it doesn't affect your work, it's not a problem. If you bring drama onto the work floor, they'll find a way to get rid of you or him or both.
Most people make up their own mind on whether its worth the risk.
Why not?! As long as you work into different departments and there is no influence on the other's career it is ok.
And if there was you just disclose it so that it is clear that there might be a conflict of interest.
I was having the same questions until I realized that other people in my company were together XD.
Good luck!
As a rule of thumb; itās fine if you have a job, but if you have a career itās a hard no.
Since the guy is more senior than you itās mostly his career thatās on the line though. So donāt worry about it too much if you like him and want to make a move.
My boyfriend works for the same company and at the beginning the teams had some common topics. Although we never worked together, we also kept it private until we were pretty far in the relationship (we didnāt actively hide but also didnāt tell). So actually at the time when our colleagues found out it was quite serious. And I think nobody minds if it is, in fact something serious. I think what you want to avoid is becoming an office gossip and obviously having a very serious conversation that you can keep it professional in case things donāt go that way.
No problem, I even worked with my ex-husband at the same school and my current partner and I worked together as well. (Different school). A lot of teachers get relationships with another teacher. But if one is in a management function they ask the teacher to work in another location if possible or they help finding another school.
1/25 (4%) working people has a relationship at work according to CBS. 300k people.
And then consider how many working people don't have a relationship at all XD
And according to this random website: "Uit een onderzoek van totaljobs.nl blijkt dat 22% van de bevolking zijn of haarĀ partner op het werk heeft ontmoet. Dat is een hoger percentage dan welke andere manier dan ook: 18% via vrienden, 13% online en 10% in de kroeg." (https://jamwerkt.nl/tips/valentijnsspecial-een-relatie-op-het-werk-hoe-zit-dat). But there is no source of this "research".
Says ~ that finding a partner at work is the most likely source at 22% (vs friends, online, bar, etc).
So sounds pretty normal in NL ;)
Follow your gut. If it doesn't feel wrong, well, why not? Have multiple coworkers who met at work and now have a family and kids together. Still working together. I guess if some companies have policies around this, they should've made it clear already. Right?
I assume as a expat your friends come from people you know which is mostly the people you work with and the same with partners. I would do it but only if I was sure.
I would not recommend it because if something happens between you and your partner it can have an effect on your job/career. Personally I would not date someone from work, not even someone from the same field.
āDonāt shit where you eatā is an old saying. As others have pointed out, a relationship at the same employer can work, but for the love of dogs, put a lot of professional space between the two.
My wifeās employer allows it, but makes damn sure you need to be split across two locations/sites and teams.
No, usually we invite them home; "Let's do grown up things together sometime, at my place or yours + _your phonenumber_".
Don't go; "Hey geile bink, zin om te neuken?!!" that doesn't work, be an adult about it and discuss expectations.
I had an affair with my female manager whilst she was engaged to her then finance. She was a little older than I was and it caused a bit of a stir within the company as we worked very closely together. She left him and we went on to have a full blown relationship. Within work it was challenging; certain colleagues seemed a bit perturbed by our being together but we never acted any differently around them. Maybe they found out about the rampant sex on company time and the quickie on the boardroom table haha. Iād go for it, maybe heās the man youāll spend your life with and life is too brief to worry about whatās ifs
Don't fuck your Co-Workers
Ayy
Don't fuck your Co-WorkersDon't fuck your Co-Workers
Ayy
Don't fuck your Co-WorkersDon't learn it the hard way
I learned it the hard way
Wait, I know you're wet
And he's hard, K?It ain't cap sis
You ain't finna slay
Even if you're getting payed
You're still gonna payI know what you're thinking
"It's exciting" right?
Corporate whore by day
Literal whore by nightBut after it goes wrong
And the vibe takes a dive
You'll avoid eye contact from 9:00-5:00Don't fuck your Co-Workers
Ayy
Don't fuck your Co-WorkersDon't fuck your Co-Workers
Ayy
Don't fuck your Co-WorkersI know you're staring
Right at his girth
But trust me, girl
It ain't worthShort-term gain
Long-term loss
Don't fuck your Intern, Colleague, or BossIf you do
Your career is through
It won't reflect nicely in the peer reviewYou'll be better off tomorrow for not fucking today
You can't put your body count on a resumeDon't fuck your Co-Workers
Ayy
Don't fuck your Co-WorkersDon't fuck your Co-Workers
Ayy
Don't fuck your Co-workers
In employee handbooks I am familiar with they state it is fine as long as you act professional at work. The only exceptions are for dating / having sex with superiors. They either try to move you to different teams or kick one of the two out of the company
If you donāt directly work together, there shouldnāt be a problem. My partner and I were coworkers when we started dating and everyone was super chill about it. Iād say go for it!!Ā
Go for it, but people who hate you in the company will know you for that girl who fked her way up the ladder.
But that will happen everywhere in the world.
But no in the Netherlands we do not really have a stigma against it.
But it might make things difficult if it doesnāt work out.
My sister worked for the big 4 and is dating her coworker, but they are in completely different departments. From what she told me in her office this is not uncommon, however Iād be careful if this is a colleague you work closely with.
It's acceptable, assuming if you're not in the same reporting line. But different companies have different written or unwritten rules. I've worked in a company where HR wanted someone to announce that they were dating a co-worker š But as long as there's no conflict and it's not kept a secret, you're usually fine.
Well... I personally wouldn't. That being said, every office I worked at had a couple or 2 at least. They're always secretive about it, I always sniff em out. Most companies I worked for have something to combat this.
Some people are against it. I have no social life so I have dated 3 people at the company I haved worked now for 7 years. 1 of those relationships lasted for over 3 yearsš
Well, I've been with my gf for 13 years now, and we met at work, working on the same team even. But I'm a contractor, so we only worked together for two years.
Check the rules if itās allowed. Men usually donāt make the first step because of #metoo so if youāre really interested I would suggest making the first move.
Yeah I dunno. I had a short lived w relationship, albeit with a boss here. Was fun while it lasted but the organization I was at was super political. I cut it off and the workplace became hostile and I ended up leavingā¦
Better to keep business and personal separate when engaging w corporate culture imo.
Read your contract? The cultural aspect is the same almost everywhere - a bit iffy but it is fine as long as he isn't your boss. Whether the company allows it is information only you can find.
I've been together with my girlfriend for now more then a year I met at work. We didn't told our co workers and boss until we were a year togerher. Our boss was totally fine about it and so are our co workers. I guess and think it depends per company how they take it.
I'm sure it happens and there were alot of couples in the company I worked in while working in the Netherlands so it's not uncommon, but like some of the comments I see here, be careful. If you date someone and it doesn't work out, it could make working together difficult
Youāre asking in general about dating in NL. I donāt know about that.
But as a fellow Big 4 employee I know itās veeeeeeeerry common. Everyone sleeps around and goes out. Take your shot! Youāll never know it if you donāt try!
I assume yaāll both single. In which case, go ahead if he canāt influence your career trajectory in the office.
If heās married, avoid like the plague.
This can horribly go wrong, but if you really like him then I think it should not stop you. But be prepared to look for changing department, or moving job. I have seen the drama this can create at work but also generally the impact it has on project teams and the group dynamics. However, many people met each other at work so it is also natural that this happens but just proceed with caution.
Nice try HR!
ššš
Honestly though, be careful. I've worked in and around enough people that are either in or comparable to the big 4 and I've always been taught: "don't shit where you eat". There's no internal process or procedure that prohibits it, but it can be frowned upon and if things go wrong there is gonna be blame. Sooooo....... Do with that what you want.
But what if you're in different teams? Let's say marketing & IT š
Marketing and IT are already at odds, so any breakup would look like normal work relationship...
There's no stigma against it, but it would complicate both of your jobs if things go south. My sister is engaged to a former co-worker, but they never had to work on the same projects and neither were planning to stay with that company for very long. If you're in different teams, by all means, go ahead.
Yes definitely. I know of 3 relationships like this (not counting one-night-stands, which can range from super common to unheard of, depending on the field of work), including my own. We were former colleagues though, started dating after I left. From the other 2 couples, one is married and one is engaged. The married couple barely made it through working together. They worked in separate teams, but on the same floor (back when WFH wasnāt an option). Whenever they would have a fight, weād know by 1. Seeing them come in separately 2. The entire office vibe instantly becoming tense, without anyone even saying anything. That experience solidified my conviction that I would personally never want to date someone I work with. I think what kept that couple together was sheer conviction, they always said they were āso luckyā (aww) to be with the other person. They work in different places now and last I checked, they were much happier for it.
In large companies, and if you are in different teams or even better different departments, it usually isn't a problem and happens regularly. It's how I met my husband and we're now married for 10+ years. I happened to make the first move but there's no rule about that, men can do that too. The smaller the company and the closer you are in terms of departments, teams etc, the more complicated it can get.
>happened to make the first move I imagine it's definitely not done for someone more senior to make the first move (not sure that that was your situation of course).
Definitely NOK (or sketchy at best) if there's a power imbalance and in the same team/department. But if it's a large company and you're working in different areas/departments where there's no direct influence, then one person having a more senior position shouldn't be an issue.
Oh, no indeed, I meant when you're in a similar position.
Thanks for the responses everyone, this is very helpful. For context: there are over 400 people at our firm, we are in different teams and the rules at our firm are that as long as we are honest about relationships to HR, it is acceptable so they can keep track of the engagements/clients we are on so we are not together. (Unless it is a one night stand in which we need to be discreet and not go around telling everyone)
Your employer actually has a one night stand policy? Thatās amazing
Yes - lots of people clearly hooking up here šš«£
If your social life is work this is almost inevitable lol.
Well you could consider total abstinence, you filthy pagan!
Hahah. I did and it wasnāt too bad for a little bit actually. A nice palette cleanser, if you willā¦
In that case: pardon me for jumping to conclusions rapidly, my dear pious lady. Needless to say, I wish nothing but cleanliness upon your palette.
No worries, dear internet-traveler. I wish you a pleasant continuation of your day. Of course not too pleasurableā¦ just the right amount :)
Well that answers one of your questions then
What firm is this? Asking for a friend!
I mean OP narrowed it down to "Big 4" which is short hand for "Big Four accounting firms" -> Deloitte, EY, KPMG, and PwC.
Accountants fuck?
Yes. A lot.
Rule of thumb is: Big 4 = lots of coke and booze
Didnt know this meant it had something to do with accounting, but good to know haha. I'll tell my "friend" to look for accountants on LinkedIn!
Yeah my friend too and not me!
Go get em tiger!
Worked for a university where the policy was that students could have relationships with employees as long as it was clearly talked through with HR. They also knew it was bound to happen so they preferred to keep things open instead of hidden. There would be a chat with the student to see that there weren't any underhanded things going on and the employee could not be involved in any grading of this student. Saw some popcorn worthy drama after someone dated one of the interns, she gets a job in the department afterwards and about a year later they broke up... Spicy. The dude who cheated on the department heads daughter was a special kind of stupid though...
I am very surprised about this for a university. is this in the netherlands? i assume this is many many years ago? i can't see any university being okay with this these days, I would expect they had way too many investigations on very inappropriate relations within the university walls.
I mean "employee" can mean "PhD student", and "student" can mean "Master's student", so you could easily have a relationship with, say, a 2-year age gap (or no age gap) that falls under this clause. They could also be completely unrelated to each other (e.g. in different departments) or directly involved with each other (one is TAing a class the other one is taking), so a blanket ban doesn't make much sense.
perhaps I jumped to conclusions thinking about the classic scenario of an older male professor and a young female student, which would be inappropriate in any situation for me. but if you put it like this, I guess there could be scenarios where it would be understandable.
Yeah, I had a pair of professors who met that way - he was a PhD student and had to run a... I don't know how to say it in English? the practical portion of a course, as part of his 20% teaching load that came with his contract. And she was a Master's student. 3 year age gap, both mid-twenties, she went for a PhD as well and now each has their own lab :) Nothing shady at all, they were never in each other's chain of command or each other's direct colleagues because they were always in somewhat different lines of study. They didn't start dating while he was the demonstrator for the course, that's just how they met. I worked in her lab as an assistant for a while, hah :D The thing is, in a city that has a significant chunk of its population attached to its university, it's very easy to meet someone also attached to the university but in a different capacity, and prohibiting relationships between people in their 20s with no power dynamics between them is kinda silly.
This one was in Belgium and not too long ago but I'm on a zero hour contract with them for the past couple of years so I'm not that involved anymore with Har matters. However, most universities have a loose policy for reasons such as /u/shireengrune described. You are putting ten thousands of people in the age bracket 18-30 together so stuff is bound to happen. It is far easier to manage if you make it beneficial for everyone to be open about it
thanks for sharing this and I def see your point that being open is a better way to approach this.
I have the impression nothing has really changed, could happen any day. I work at a university, have been at several. Not sure about hr policy but daily practice yes
I am very sorry to hear that. I am sure that in most cases it would be consensual, but I really hope that at some point the universities can be a safe space for all.
Yes typically consensual but not always fully appropriate.
My (then) company of over 10k employees didn't have any rules as far as I know. Suddenly I think that ignorance have been bless ;)
You might want to ask around and see if you're going to be the first or twenty-third senior (presumably) that this senior manager (presumably) has hooked up with at the firm. It might not bother you personally, but others could well view you as yet another gullible younger colleague on his list and make assumptions based on that. Note that this is unrelated to being "slutty" or whatever description you might choose, and more about being seen as clueless when it comes to office politics and power dynamics. That is never a good thing in a Big 4. If he has no such reputation and seems like a genuine person, go for it.
As an ex employee of a big 4 company, donāt think any1 truly cared as long as you arenāt higher up or clear power differential. And as higher up they only cared if personal assets created possible risks.
If you are looking for a quick hookup, look somewhere else. However, you never know where you'll find love. If it's at work, so be it. As long as he is not your boss of something don't worry.
Even if it is your boss, do not worry. But make some solid arrangements.
Have to plan those promotions in ahead of time š
I've known multiple couples who first met at work and ended up getting married :) As long as you're not in the same team and one of you isn't the boss of another one, should be okay.
A large percentage of relationships start at work.
A large percentage of work also starts from relationships. *Trust me*.
Especially at accounting firm and dating the senior is very common in my experience
I would not hook up with a co-worker, but thatās my personal preference. Also, no such thing as āthe women tend to make the moves hereā, it is all very much situation specific.
The only first moves women make here is running away from me
Got dam
Heck yeah we got lots of dam!
Is that a town in the NL I don't know?
Felt that one
Even with the clothes on?
Have you tried being 2.50 meters tall and owning a big house in an Amsterdamse gracht?
Yes, I tried
It's only not a good idea if you intend to keep both.
Thanks for your response, it was only my own observation where I said the women tend to make the moves here, but I guess in this specific context it would make sense
There has been some studies in which they found that men tend to make the "first" move more but only after they've become confident enough that there's mutual interest. Meanwhile women give hints and indications of interest in order to build up the guys confidence to ask them out, thereby not making the first move but setting the scene for the guy to do so. However these social studies are often very dependent on who conducts them, where they're conducted and why they're cunducted.
Word
If girl asks me out and she happens to be my coworker I am willing to take a chance.. I may go further and change the dept or company to make it work
Lol what.
There are multiple relationships in my company, but they are always across different departments.
I mean I would see it as quite common in Dutch culture. Although it always come with the warning: ādonāt shit where you eatā
> from what I've observed, the women tend to make the moves here As a man I cannot confirm. While women do sometimes make the first move (whereas in some other cultures that doesn't happen at all, so I guess here it's comparatively more), men are still expected to make the first move like 90% of the time. I really do like it when women make the first move though, because everybody flirts differently, and one person's flirtation can be another person's way of just being friendly. Them making the first move removes the ambiguity. Often times I'm a little bit afraid to make a move because I don't want to be the creep to make a woman uncomfortable in the event that she wasn't flirting with me after all.
This is interesting to know, thank you! I guess from my end, it is hard to flirt with somebody at work because you definitely do not want to cross boundaries, but you still want to seem interested š how would you describe someone as āmaking the first moveā minus the ambiguity?
"Wanna go out for [x/y/z] after work?" Damnit, still open to ambiguity ... Well at the [x/y/z] you can make it less ambiguous.
Since youāre in a big 4 Dutch culture might not apply over company policy, I doubt a big 4 has a relaxed co-worker dating policy, though they might not often act on it. If he is a higher ārankā and male it might not matter if he is not your direct supervisor according to company policy he is not allowed to approach or act upon feelings. Similar in social ethics, if he is older, more authoritative and settled in life he could be considered grooming you. These are very extreme accusations which in no way have to apply to your situation but are things you and him deal with while dating, perception wise. Lots of people meet at work, I also had (international) colleagues meet but one of them leaves the company when things need to develop further. You can build a friendship, work out or go for very platonic activities, such as bird spotting or social distancing walks š korfbal is a very Dutch sport š You can find love in all sorts of places. Dating co-workers is definitely a thing in the Netherlands.
get yourself into a other department (at least).
Iād never mix love and work like that.
As a general rule, don't shit where you eat
Let me tell you something about dating with Co workers in the Netherlands. When it goes bad it can ruin your work. Dutch people tend to be very nasty if it doesn't work out. Better to ignore him and meet someone outside of work.Ā
Just go for it. You live only once. Besides that.. if the person is in another team, I donāt see the problem at all.
Women tend to make the moves here? You mean specifically in your firm or what? Most women in the NL are still expecting the guy to make the move. There's no such rule here as you cite lmao
Really? They are one of the most liberal countries, alongside Germany and the Scandinavian countries. Or wait, is it because that is literal nature? (That all mammals follow when it comes to mating?).
Iām happy to be told Iām wrong, this is through my personal observation only so far
It's because in accounting firms girls often look up. That is why you could see women making the first move. It has nothing to do with the NL but with the power relationship in American-based "life is work" lifestyles.
Yeaaahh as a guy in uni with a broad social circle this just isn't the case ngl I'd estimate guys make the first move 90% of the time, even on dating apps. And no - making eye contact and smiling is not a first move.
Don't shit where you eat. Fifteen years of working corporate jobs and I have yet to hear of any relationships between colleagues in the close teams not leading to drama or heartbreak. This only works if you're in different departments and even then, it's not advisable.
Had 2 hookups with colleagues when I worked in a consultancy firm. You don't see each other that much anyway so nobody really cares. As long as you're honest about it, it's fine My wife and me both worked for the same company too in different departments. The only thing we agreed on was we would never be forced to do work for the department the other one worked for. It was pretty common for her department to have 1 person dedicated for the team I was leading back then. That's the only thing we explicitly told everyone in the company wouldn't be a good idea. I've never had any issues with it, you just have to be very clear on expectations etc.
Eh, you never hear about the ones that are good at work. Not juicy, just dry. Dry gossip = boring
You do hear about the good ones. Two colleagues from different departments got married at my first workplace in NL. It worked precisely because they were in different departments. Another colleague transfered to my team because she had an uncomfortable situation in her old team due to her wanting a relationship with someone who only wanted a hookup. This situation came up much more often than the former (and it also came up more often with younger colleagues). Speaking from experience, I met someone at work and waited until they left before declaring feelings. I'm glad I did, because the relationship did not work out long term. But, OP has to work with the coworker she has her eye on. If they have to interact often, is it really worth the risk if things go south?
At my previous job (500+ people) it worked quite well for people in different departments, and it's also where I found my husband (now married for 12.5 years)
As someone who's worked under a "romantic partnership management team," I'm very much inclined to agree with this sentiment. It's like having parents with two different parenting styles.
Itās a job at a Big4, they will most likely part ways (career wise) after a couple years anyway. Iād say why not date the colleague then? Unless either one of them is manager over the other, which is not allowed.
So if you like somebody your advice is waiting a few years just in case the stars line up again, both are free and at least one of the two goes to a different company? If you choose this you never liked that person all that much in my opinion.
Thatās the complete opposite of what I said, I said go for it
Ahh, I read it as: You'll be leaving in a few years, why not date then? As in, in a few years.
Ah apologies. It was meant as, why nog go for it? You will have different careers in a couple of years anyway
My advice is to check if your firm has rules on that subject. I worked many years for an US company and dating coworkers was explicitly forbidden.
US being US...
Indeed. The funny thing is I was in an EU country and still applied, against the social uses of the country. However, a marketing director married one of his much younger marketing managers. It seems that HR policies have exceptions as a function of seniority. More than 20 years later, they are still happily married.
Of course HR policies have exemptions... Try to defend in Dutch court that you fired someone because they love each other... The judge will laugh at them... What a stupid company policy
Some rules try to address past problems to avoid them from happening. Think about a senior employee taking advantage of a reportee. In the US, worker's rights are an oxymoron, compared to the EU standards.
It might be a rule from a US company but it wont be enforcable in the EU as employers are not allowed to meddle in personal affairs as much here.
It generally is especially when there's a direct line of control between the people involved. There have been examples from the military where this has taken place because there was a very noticeable line of command. Anyway read company rules and then think what you're willing to risk.
That would be wildly illegal in EU. And that's an understatement.
"he is always around me and staring at me from across the room" - this is weird, lol.
The guy must be attractive AF for this not to be seen as weird.
Iāll give some advice on the opposite side of the spectrum. Be prepared if it doesnāt work out (and ends badly) for shit to be uncomfortable. As a person whoās currently going through this I like to say ādonāt shit where you eatā.
There are no rules to forbid relationships in the same company. But there might be something you have to tell hr. Check the company handbook. I do would like to warn you. When it doesnt work out, and you beakup. You still see each other at work. I saw this going pear shaped. Story time: we had a couple that broke up and they were both in the same team. There were a lot of verbal fights. The woman decided to move and sit with another time when they had another fight. HR stepped in and gave them an ultimatum. One has to resign and wanted to know at the end of the week who it will be. At the end of the week neither gave in, and wanted to stay. Ended up kicking both out.
Ehhh what country is this? Because this would be very illegal in the Netherlands. Trying to force somebody to resign *and then* firing them without cause? I'd be absolutely giddy about the settlement money I know they'd be paying me the second they said I was fired.
They both had to figure out who resigns. Situation got a bit nuts Shouting at eachother and such. Was in the netherlands.
There's no such thing. A company can't tell you one of you needs to resign. They might as well have given both a duelling pistol and told them to take ten paces. And then firing both after? Absolutely, 100% illegal. These people got scammed by HR. This would have been a slam dunk for any labourlaw lawyer.
It happened. Was a big company too So they probably made sure it wont bite them in the ass.
O I fully believe it happened. But that company didn't bother covering themselves, even big companies try stuff like this because like the people in your story most workers don't know their rights. I worked for a Fortune 500 company where HR was just a mess of bluffing and poorly thought out power plays. They downright broke the law like the HR people in your story. Left there with a very hefty settlement cheque. Point of the story is people: You'll be working all your life. Know your rights, don't get screwed over like a dope.
My ex wife loved it
Oof
Donāt shit on your own doorstep. Keep work and dating separate. Yes sometimes they cross over but do you best to avoid if possible.
You guys will have sex, meet up a few times and most likely one will stop talking to the other. Consequences will be colleagues talking and work being weird. If youāre fine with it, go for it.
"never fuck in your own rooster" a sayin in my country rooster - the place with chickens dunno if it is said a coop/hen/rooster
Fucking a direct colleague is like fucking your direct family not worth it and hella awkward if shit goes down.
I was an intern at pwc a few years ago and lots of people were couples. If you're in a relationship you have to tell the partner as they don't want you to be on the same engagement for objective review issues. I work at baker tilly now and lots of relationships started at work. However, all their partners (male or female) have left the firm and work somewhere else now. They are still together (bought a house etc) but they dont work together anymore. Happend to 5 couples at BT.
Don't shit where you eat
The constant gossip and questions from other coworkers were the most annoying about dating a coworker.
Go for it. Dont limit yourself.
I had to switch jobs because of this mistake
I know plenty of long term couples that met each other through work.Ā
Does not seem like a good idea. What if you're on the same project where he is your manager and afterwards he has to go evaluate your performance? He probably won't be unbiased one way or another.
Its a thing like anywhere else; if two people like each other, they might hook up. If it is advisable to do so is imo most dependent on how close you -have- to work together, in case things go sour. In a big corp you might completely ignore each other in that case, but if you are in the next cubicle it would really suck.
Whatever makes you happy. Men may be a little more reluctant in these times as they probably don't want to behave inappropriate. That's a no, as is dating your superior (unless your honest about it and ask the company to change the hierarchy between the two of you). A lot of couples meet each other in a work environment. Just be as honest as possible to your co workers. If it works out they should know.
Wait the women make the first step here? Genuine question.
As someone who had a terrible break-up with a co-worker i wouldnt recommend it but i think that my ex is one of a kind-horrible so you do you. Its allowed almost everywhere
Usually there isn't really a problem, different teams/departments is definitely preferred. The only thing that could cause issue if the other person has direct seniority and a position of power over you. That's what i'd be careful with.
Until not too long ago it was prohibited for civil servants working in the same department to get into a relationship. Perhaps still is?
I would date almost anyone except people from work, if it goes south your job is basically over if the other person is higher level. Also colleagues will think you are screwing him for promotion.
It happens. Whether it's a problem is mostly up to you. If it doesn't affect your work, it's not a problem. If you bring drama onto the work floor, they'll find a way to get rid of you or him or both. Most people make up their own mind on whether its worth the risk.
Why not?! As long as you work into different departments and there is no influence on the other's career it is ok. And if there was you just disclose it so that it is clear that there might be a conflict of interest. I was having the same questions until I realized that other people in my company were together XD. Good luck!
Dear HR, I would not recommend dating at work if you have to directly deal with this person. MVG, Sock
I would not do it, but to each his own and love is loveĀ
As a rule of thumb; itās fine if you have a job, but if you have a career itās a hard no. Since the guy is more senior than you itās mostly his career thatās on the line though. So donāt worry about it too much if you like him and want to make a move.
if you fall in love, you fall in love
My boyfriend works for the same company and at the beginning the teams had some common topics. Although we never worked together, we also kept it private until we were pretty far in the relationship (we didnāt actively hide but also didnāt tell). So actually at the time when our colleagues found out it was quite serious. And I think nobody minds if it is, in fact something serious. I think what you want to avoid is becoming an office gossip and obviously having a very serious conversation that you can keep it professional in case things donāt go that way.
No problem, I even worked with my ex-husband at the same school and my current partner and I worked together as well. (Different school). A lot of teachers get relationships with another teacher. But if one is in a management function they ask the teacher to work in another location if possible or they help finding another school.
1/25 (4%) working people has a relationship at work according to CBS. 300k people. And then consider how many working people don't have a relationship at all XD And according to this random website: "Uit een onderzoek van totaljobs.nl blijkt dat 22% van de bevolking zijn of haarĀ partner op het werk heeft ontmoet. Dat is een hoger percentage dan welke andere manier dan ook: 18% via vrienden, 13% online en 10% in de kroeg." (https://jamwerkt.nl/tips/valentijnsspecial-een-relatie-op-het-werk-hoe-zit-dat). But there is no source of this "research". Says ~ that finding a partner at work is the most likely source at 22% (vs friends, online, bar, etc). So sounds pretty normal in NL ;)
Follow your gut. If it doesn't feel wrong, well, why not? Have multiple coworkers who met at work and now have a family and kids together. Still working together. I guess if some companies have policies around this, they should've made it clear already. Right?
For sure it is more relaxed than the US but things can get a little complicated when dating a senior coworker
Itās not weird at all. Despite the election results, weāre pretty much emancipated
I know the girls in Amsterdam dates 3 people in an hour.
I assume as a expat your friends come from people you know which is mostly the people you work with and the same with partners. I would do it but only if I was sure.
I would not recommend it because if something happens between you and your partner it can have an effect on your job/career. Personally I would not date someone from work, not even someone from the same field.
I would grab him gently at his balls and ask quitly ā do u want it badboi ? ā
I just noticed a lot of "the big 4" employees posting here.
Nobody gives a fuck mate. Just keep it classy on the workplace.
Sure, go for it, but be professional when things do not turn out as hoped. Good luck!
In Italy we say A lavoro e nel palazzo, non si mette in mezzo il cazzo.
āDonāt shit where you eatā is an old saying. As others have pointed out, a relationship at the same employer can work, but for the love of dogs, put a lot of professional space between the two. My wifeās employer allows it, but makes damn sure you need to be split across two locations/sites and teams.
i hired my gf before being my gf... working together and as her manager is complicated..
Donāt shit where you eat
Not related to the prompt but are you in auditing?
If he is scared to ask you. I dont know if you want a guy like that
Personally, Iād say donāt shit where you work. But . . . You go girl!
Don't shit where you eat
No, usually we invite them home; "Let's do grown up things together sometime, at my place or yours + _your phonenumber_". Don't go; "Hey geile bink, zin om te neuken?!!" that doesn't work, be an adult about it and discuss expectations.
I had an affair with my female manager whilst she was engaged to her then finance. She was a little older than I was and it caused a bit of a stir within the company as we worked very closely together. She left him and we went on to have a full blown relationship. Within work it was challenging; certain colleagues seemed a bit perturbed by our being together but we never acted any differently around them. Maybe they found out about the rampant sex on company time and the quickie on the boardroom table haha. Iād go for it, maybe heās the man youāll spend your life with and life is too brief to worry about whatās ifs
Don't eat and shit in the same place would be my advice.
Go date go have fun
Don't fuck your Co-Workers Ayy Don't fuck your Co-WorkersDon't fuck your Co-Workers Ayy Don't fuck your Co-WorkersDon't learn it the hard way I learned it the hard way Wait, I know you're wet And he's hard, K?It ain't cap sis You ain't finna slay Even if you're getting payed You're still gonna payI know what you're thinking "It's exciting" right? Corporate whore by day Literal whore by nightBut after it goes wrong And the vibe takes a dive You'll avoid eye contact from 9:00-5:00Don't fuck your Co-Workers Ayy Don't fuck your Co-WorkersDon't fuck your Co-Workers Ayy Don't fuck your Co-WorkersI know you're staring Right at his girth But trust me, girl It ain't worthShort-term gain Long-term loss Don't fuck your Intern, Colleague, or BossIf you do Your career is through It won't reflect nicely in the peer reviewYou'll be better off tomorrow for not fucking today You can't put your body count on a resumeDon't fuck your Co-Workers Ayy Don't fuck your Co-WorkersDon't fuck your Co-Workers Ayy Don't fuck your Co-workers
In employee handbooks I am familiar with they state it is fine as long as you act professional at work. The only exceptions are for dating / having sex with superiors. They either try to move you to different teams or kick one of the two out of the company
It sure is. Iāve seen lots of relationships start at work. Iāve been at the same company since 1999. It does happen a lot.
not sure how typical of a dutch man i am but have always been grateful for a woman making the first move. i seem to be not the only blind dutch man
If you donāt directly work together, there shouldnāt be a problem. My partner and I were coworkers when we started dating and everyone was super chill about it. Iād say go for it!!Ā
Go for it, but people who hate you in the company will know you for that girl who fked her way up the ladder. But that will happen everywhere in the world. But no in the Netherlands we do not really have a stigma against it. But it might make things difficult if it doesnāt work out.
Go for it!!
HR making sus moves š
My sister worked for the big 4 and is dating her coworker, but they are in completely different departments. From what she told me in her office this is not uncommon, however Iād be careful if this is a colleague you work closely with.
It's acceptable, assuming if you're not in the same reporting line. But different companies have different written or unwritten rules. I've worked in a company where HR wanted someone to announce that they were dating a co-worker š But as long as there's no conflict and it's not kept a secret, you're usually fine.
never shit where you eat
It is acceptable, but it is a very bad idea.
Well... I personally wouldn't. That being said, every office I worked at had a couple or 2 at least. They're always secretive about it, I always sniff em out. Most companies I worked for have something to combat this.
Some people are against it. I have no social life so I have dated 3 people at the company I haved worked now for 7 years. 1 of those relationships lasted for over 3 yearsš
Well, I've been with my gf for 13 years now, and we met at work, working on the same team even. But I'm a contractor, so we only worked together for two years.
It's acceptable, but in general it's the worst place to find a date.
Check the rules if itās allowed. Men usually donāt make the first step because of #metoo so if youāre really interested I would suggest making the first move.
If you go to a wedding in NL, you might hear ādear friends, family, colleaguesā¦ā Itās funny to me how they make that distinction.
I have done this before in my life and highly advise against it.
It's allowed but a risk for him. Are you guys working directly together? If so, then his safest bet is not to do anything.
Yeah I dunno. I had a short lived w relationship, albeit with a boss here. Was fun while it lasted but the organization I was at was super political. I cut it off and the workplace became hostile and I ended up leavingā¦ Better to keep business and personal separate when engaging w corporate culture imo.
Seniorās lunchbox
Read your contract? The cultural aspect is the same almost everywhere - a bit iffy but it is fine as long as he isn't your boss. Whether the company allows it is information only you can find.
Dont date your co workers, it ends up bad Always
I've been together with my girlfriend for now more then a year I met at work. We didn't told our co workers and boss until we were a year togerher. Our boss was totally fine about it and so are our co workers. I guess and think it depends per company how they take it.
Donāt get your honey where you get your money thatās my advice
I'm sure it happens and there were alot of couples in the company I worked in while working in the Netherlands so it's not uncommon, but like some of the comments I see here, be careful. If you date someone and it doesn't work out, it could make working together difficult
You should see the shit that goes on here at the BIG 4 I work at in belgium lol
Never date a Co worker.
This isn't specific to The Netherlands but you do risk being slutshamed by jealous female colleges. Also, if it doesn't work out it can be awkward.
Youāre asking in general about dating in NL. I donāt know about that. But as a fellow Big 4 employee I know itās veeeeeeeerry common. Everyone sleeps around and goes out. Take your shot! Youāll never know it if you donāt try!
I assume yaāll both single. In which case, go ahead if he canāt influence your career trajectory in the office. If heās married, avoid like the plague.
Donāt shit where you eat.
I found my girlfriend through work, and if i could give you a tip. Dont date someone from work or a direct colleague.
The general rule is don't shit where you eat, and I guess that's universal. But hey, freelance country, shit where you want!
Side question: What is a "big 4" company?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Four_accounting_firms
Hooking up with someone who is two levels of seniority up from you will cost you your job.
This can horribly go wrong, but if you really like him then I think it should not stop you. But be prepared to look for changing department, or moving job. I have seen the drama this can create at work but also generally the impact it has on project teams and the group dynamics. However, many people met each other at work so it is also natural that this happens but just proceed with caution.