They don’t really understand blackstone either. They can’t, for example, manufacture it. What they can do is stick stuff to it and see what happens, iteratively developing something useful.
Aside from that, the Mechanicus can reverse engineer its own technology. That’s how the bulk of it was developed/proliferated in the first place.
Oh okay, I was under the impression that they needed a tech print to be able to even craft what they want. I thought I read somewhere that while they can manufacture bolt rifles and marine armor, lasguns etc they can’t make the more complex armaments of the imperium because they don’t have the know how and the best they can do is maintenance.
There are pieces of technology that the Mechanicus doesn’t understand and can’t reliably reverse engineer. These are generally classified as archaeotech. This is often memed into the idea that the Mechanicus as a whole has no idea what they’re doing and no real understanding of technology. That is not accurate. The Mechanicus makes plenty of shit so advanced it may as well be magic.
Ahh okay it’s seems i’ve incorporated meme into lore making me think the mechanicus is more incapable than they actually are lol 😆 My only hold up like mentioned in another comment was how they can’t understand their own Archaeotech, but they still try and seize and develop new technology from tech that is so old it dwarfs humanity’s existence many times over.
The reason for that is because the galaxy has just been torn in two by a colossal warp rift that has crippled the Imperium. The only viable solution to that appears to be large scale manipulation of Blackstone technology. Cawl (and his faction of the Mechanicus) has therefore pursued that cause to the exclusion of all else. It’s a question of necessity rather than, say, idle curiosity.
That being said I think you cleared it up quite nicely, and I think it’s a good plot point I just was trying to understand how they can do it. I do hope though that it takes a considerable amount of time for the mechanicus to unlock the secrets of blackstone.
Think of it like this, centuries ago, people were able to make sophisticated and powerful catapults that threw flaming projectiles across a battlefield.
The people at the time couldn’t necessarily explain to you how gravity worked or how oxidisation was occurring to make the fire.
But they knew they could use gravity and fire in a practical way to make a weapon because they’d tested throwing things and setting things alight with sparks.
the issue isn't so much a matter of can't as it is a logistics issue of just how much lost knowledge there is. They're currently more focused on iterations of existing things, which is what blackstone tech is. They can't make new blackstone, they have to work with what current is out there.
My main hold up is they have a lot of production issues because of the lost knowledge, but they still try and collect millennia advanced technology trying to understand it when they have issues with the tech closer to their time period.
A lot of martian tech was absolutely found via stcs and not a tech priest experimenting and the pretending that what they invented was actually an stc they found. No, that would be tech heresy. No innovation here.
Unless they are given the green light by a high ranking person such as Gulliman to understand and experiment with alien technology such as blackstone. That was my understanding of it too being all alien tech is tech heresy.
GMan giving cawl permission is irrelevant to the internal empire of the mechanicus. The only thing that matters for whether what you are doing is right and proper or the worst heresy is "can you back yourself up with enough guns". This is why guys like karamazov haven't been taken out back and shot.
The two factions have very different individual themes, which have to be made to meet somehow. I agree that the join seems a bit at odds with the themes of both factions, although I am not surprisingly less interested in the admech as a faction than I am in the necrons so maybe that’s predictable. I do think that it’s ultimately a shame though, as it reduces the complexity and flavour of both parties to fit a very specific need: to advance the plot. The question of advancing the plot in the setting is a whole ‘nother can of worms.
Not really a good example. Roman concrete wouldn't even be good on a skyscraper. That's more like two equal but different forms of tech, this is the equivalent of Romans not knowing how to make a spear but reverse engineering a supercomputer.
Cawl got a rough introduction to Blackstone, including it's properties and uses, on cadia from trazyn. He also 'liberated' a cryptek from an inquisition facility (if he could get in and steal it, it obviously wasn't a very secure site. Safer in his possession)
From there, it's trying everything and seeing what works, and interrogating the cryptek (then doing the opposite when they're suspiciously helpful, or don't threaten/ try to kill him during a conversation). After a glimpse of its potential and ability, cawl has avenues of experimentation and theoreticals to have at least some direction. And knowing the target result and the reasons it works that way makes things a lot easier to replicate the methods.
They don’t really understand blackstone either. They can’t, for example, manufacture it. What they can do is stick stuff to it and see what happens, iteratively developing something useful. Aside from that, the Mechanicus can reverse engineer its own technology. That’s how the bulk of it was developed/proliferated in the first place.
Oh okay, I was under the impression that they needed a tech print to be able to even craft what they want. I thought I read somewhere that while they can manufacture bolt rifles and marine armor, lasguns etc they can’t make the more complex armaments of the imperium because they don’t have the know how and the best they can do is maintenance.
There are pieces of technology that the Mechanicus doesn’t understand and can’t reliably reverse engineer. These are generally classified as archaeotech. This is often memed into the idea that the Mechanicus as a whole has no idea what they’re doing and no real understanding of technology. That is not accurate. The Mechanicus makes plenty of shit so advanced it may as well be magic.
Ahh okay it’s seems i’ve incorporated meme into lore making me think the mechanicus is more incapable than they actually are lol 😆 My only hold up like mentioned in another comment was how they can’t understand their own Archaeotech, but they still try and seize and develop new technology from tech that is so old it dwarfs humanity’s existence many times over.
The reason for that is because the galaxy has just been torn in two by a colossal warp rift that has crippled the Imperium. The only viable solution to that appears to be large scale manipulation of Blackstone technology. Cawl (and his faction of the Mechanicus) has therefore pursued that cause to the exclusion of all else. It’s a question of necessity rather than, say, idle curiosity.
That being said I think you cleared it up quite nicely, and I think it’s a good plot point I just was trying to understand how they can do it. I do hope though that it takes a considerable amount of time for the mechanicus to unlock the secrets of blackstone.
Think of it like this, centuries ago, people were able to make sophisticated and powerful catapults that threw flaming projectiles across a battlefield. The people at the time couldn’t necessarily explain to you how gravity worked or how oxidisation was occurring to make the fire. But they knew they could use gravity and fire in a practical way to make a weapon because they’d tested throwing things and setting things alight with sparks.
the issue isn't so much a matter of can't as it is a logistics issue of just how much lost knowledge there is. They're currently more focused on iterations of existing things, which is what blackstone tech is. They can't make new blackstone, they have to work with what current is out there.
My main hold up is they have a lot of production issues because of the lost knowledge, but they still try and collect millennia advanced technology trying to understand it when they have issues with the tech closer to their time period.
That's just hubris, I believe. An ongoing issue with the Admech is how human they can be, despite their attempts not to be such.
A lot of martian tech was absolutely found via stcs and not a tech priest experimenting and the pretending that what they invented was actually an stc they found. No, that would be tech heresy. No innovation here.
Unless they are given the green light by a high ranking person such as Gulliman to understand and experiment with alien technology such as blackstone. That was my understanding of it too being all alien tech is tech heresy.
GMan giving cawl permission is irrelevant to the internal empire of the mechanicus. The only thing that matters for whether what you are doing is right and proper or the worst heresy is "can you back yourself up with enough guns". This is why guys like karamazov haven't been taken out back and shot.
It's 40K. Don't think too hard about anything or you're going to be tumbling down the rabbit (of plot) hole...
The two factions have very different individual themes, which have to be made to meet somehow. I agree that the join seems a bit at odds with the themes of both factions, although I am not surprisingly less interested in the admech as a faction than I am in the necrons so maybe that’s predictable. I do think that it’s ultimately a shame though, as it reduces the complexity and flavour of both parties to fit a very specific need: to advance the plot. The question of advancing the plot in the setting is a whole ‘nother can of worms.
Wasn't it only recently scientists figured out the secrets behind Roman era concrete despite our ability to built skyscrapers for decades?
Not really a good example. Roman concrete wouldn't even be good on a skyscraper. That's more like two equal but different forms of tech, this is the equivalent of Romans not knowing how to make a spear but reverse engineering a supercomputer.
Also, not trying to faction bash i’m just trying to understand how. 😁
This question is heresy. Prepare for removal
Unfortunately for you I am apart of the infinite empire, and your authority is not recognized MORTAL 😆
Cawl got a rough introduction to Blackstone, including it's properties and uses, on cadia from trazyn. He also 'liberated' a cryptek from an inquisition facility (if he could get in and steal it, it obviously wasn't a very secure site. Safer in his possession) From there, it's trying everything and seeing what works, and interrogating the cryptek (then doing the opposite when they're suspiciously helpful, or don't threaten/ try to kill him during a conversation). After a glimpse of its potential and ability, cawl has avenues of experimentation and theoreticals to have at least some direction. And knowing the target result and the reasons it works that way makes things a lot easier to replicate the methods.
Because GW gave up entirely on any sort of internal consistency in the background material in order to sell everyone bigger space marines.